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Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

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Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:03:40 PM3/8/18
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Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

I'm setting up a new 128GB iPad, after creating the mandatory iCloud
signin, to be off Apple's ridiculously tiny iCloud backup because 5GB is
not enough to back up anything even close to useful.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0RwZa9.jpg

In iOS 11.2.1, I turned off /all/ the iCloud backup stuff at:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud >
- iCloud Drive = off
- Mail = off
- Contacts = off
- Reminders = off
- Safari = off
- Home = off
- Notes = off
- News = off
- Keychain = Off
- iCloud Backup = Off
- Find My iPad = On

The moment I did that, the "blue" "Mail" app stopped working.
It kept insisting I already had an account (which is true) but it wouldn't
even work until I turned on iCloud backup for Email.

Why?
Why can't Apple Mail just work without an iCloud backup being involved?

Jolly Roger

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:10:41 PM3/8/18
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On 2018-03-09, Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

It doesn't; you're just a *completely* inept Apple-hating troll whose
irrational hatred prevents you from getting the *simplest* things done.

Yet another of your slew of nyms *plonked*.

Bye, Felicia.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:24:07 PM3/8/18
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In article <p7sq1o$1lek$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

it doesn't.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 8, 2018, 9:30:37 PM3/8/18
to
In article <news:fge8p0...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger wrote:

> It doesn't; you're just a *completely* inept Apple-hating troll whose
> irrational hatred prevents you from getting the *simplest* things done.

It takes only seconds to find such glaring bugs in iOS.

Try this to easily reproduce the iOS Mail bug:
1. Set up an iPad with a new na...@iCloud.com authorization.
2. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it works.
3. Change from Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
Change to Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = Off
4. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it fails.

You get a screen saying "Welcome to Mail" where it wants you to choose:
- iCloud
- Exchange
- Google
- Yahoo!
- AOL
- Outlook.com
- Other

Where the only logical choices are "iCloud" or "other", neither of which
work.

If you choose "other" and provide the login credentials:
- Name = Your Name
- Email = your...@icloud.com
- Password = yourPassword1

It fails, saying: The IMAP server Automatically added for iOS and OS X Mail
is not responding. Check your network connection and that you entered the
correct information in the Incoming Mail Serve4r field.

If you continue, you get the error: "Cannot Connect Using SSL. Do you want
to try setting up the account without SSL?" where it doesn't matter if you
hit Yes or No, it won't work.

You get a similar message if you try to switch from IMAP to POP.

And, yet, if you turn on iCloud backup, "blue" Mail instantly works.
I realize you, Jolly Roger, will /never/ be able to answer a tech question.

But maybe someone here on this newsgroup understands why.

You can also reproduce the same iOS bug by selecting "iCloud":
The error message in that case is ""your...@icloud.com is Already Added.
This iCloud account has already been added to your iPad."

In all cases, if you simply turn on iCloud backup, then the "blue" Mail
suddenly works again.

Why does iOS "blue" Mail require the unwanted iCloud backup to be On?
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:32:34 PM3/8/18
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In article <p7srk9$1n78$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> Why does iOS "blue" Mail require the unwanted iCloud backup to be On?
> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On

it doesn't.

you fucked up yet again.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 8, 2018, 9:38:27 PM3/8/18
to
In article <news:080320182124060572%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?
>
> it doesn't.

Well then, if it doesn't, and since it did, then it's an iOS bug that took
seconds to find.

In fact, I just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that this iOS bug, which
took only seconds to reproduce, is fully reproducible on /multiple/ iPads.

Do they not /test/ this operating system?

If it's /this/ easy to run into obvious iOS bugs, Lord help us when we
actually try to do something more complex than sending email on iOS.

Look at the post to Jolly Roger for the sequence to reproduce the bug.
It's 100% reproducible.

a. Turn iCloud off - Mail fails to allow you to log in
b. Turn iCloud on - Mail works fine.

I realize Jolly Roger is incapable of answering any technical question, but
maybe there is one person on this iOS newsgroup who can flip the switch to
better understand the Mail bug I'm talking about.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 8, 2018, 9:42:52 PM3/8/18
to
In article <news:080320182132330999%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> Why does iOS "blue" Mail require the unwanted iCloud backup to be On?
>> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
>
> it doesn't.
>
> you fucked up yet again.

You said it's not supposed to do that, and yet it did - hence - it could
easily be a blatant iOS bug - which they didn't catch - because they don't
test iOS in the real world (obviously).

This iOS Mail bug took seconds to reproduce on multiple iPads.

If I can find blatant iOS bugs this quickly, Lord help us when we actually
try to do something more complicated than simply sending email.

Lewis

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:43:11 PM3/8/18
to
In message <p7sq1o$1lek$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

It does not.

> I'm setting up a new 128GB iPad, after creating the mandatory iCloud

there is no mandatory iCloud. At all.

> - Mail = off

If you do not have an email account configured for Mail, then Mail will
not work.

> It kept insisting I already had an account (which is true) but it wouldn't
> even work until I turned on iCloud backup for Email.

> Why?
> Why can't Apple Mail just work without an iCloud backup being involved?

It works just fine without an iCloud account. In fact, that is how my
iPad Pro is configured.


--
And there were all the stars, looking remarkably like powered diamonds
spilled on black velvet, the stars that lured and ultimately called the
boldest towards them...

Lewis

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:44:28 PM3/8/18
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In message <p7srk9$1n78$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
> Try this to easily reproduce the iOS Mail bug:
> 1. Set up an iPad with a new na...@iCloud.com authorization.
> 2. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it works.
> 3. Change from Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
> Change to Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = Off
> 4. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it fails.

the level of stupidity in this post is approaching Trump levels.

*PLONK*

--
If you have any young friends who aspire to become writers, the
second-greatest favor you can do them is to present them with copies of
The Elements of Style. The first-greatest, of course, is to shoot them
now, while they're happy. -Dorothy Parker

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:50:58 PM3/8/18
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In article <p7ss2v$1nnp$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> >> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?
> >
> > it doesn't.
>
> Well then, if it doesn't, and since it did, then it's an iOS bug that took
> seconds to find.

it did because *you* have *no* idea what you're doing and keep fucking
things up.

apple mail does *not* require icloud anything to send or receive email.
period.

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:50:58 PM3/8/18
to
In article <slrnpa3t8b....@Snow.local>, Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <p7srk9$1n78$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Ragnusen Ultred
> <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
> > Try this to easily reproduce the iOS Mail bug:
> > 1. Set up an iPad with a new na...@iCloud.com authorization.
> > 2. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it works.
> > 3. Change from Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
> > Change to Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = Off
> > 4. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it fails.
>
> the level of stupidity in this post is approaching Trump levels.

it's well beyond that.

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:50:59 PM3/8/18
to
In article <p7ssb8$1o45$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> >> Why does iOS "blue" Mail require the unwanted iCloud backup to be On?
> >> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
> >
> > it doesn't.
> >
> > you fucked up yet again.
>
> You said it's not supposed to do that, and yet it did - hence - it could
> easily be a blatant iOS bug - which they didn't catch - because they don't
> test iOS in the real world (obviously).

*you* fucked up.

> This iOS Mail bug took seconds to reproduce on multiple iPads.

<http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors76/henny-youngman-quote-the-p
atient-says-doctor-it-hurts-when-i-do-this.jpg>

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:56:17 PM3/8/18
to
In article <news:080320182150587290%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> You said it's not supposed to do that, and yet it did - hence - it could
>> easily be a blatant iOS bug - which they didn't catch - because they don't
>> test iOS in the real world (obviously).
>
> *you* fucked up.

You said it's not supposed to do that, and yet it did do that.
For multiple people on different iPads and different accounts.

If you turn off the iCloud backup setting for Mail, then you can't send
Mail.

If you turn iCloud backup back on, then you can send Mail.

Why does Mail not work unless you turn iCloud backup on?

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 8, 2018, 9:58:33 PM3/8/18
to
In article <news:080320182150587264%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

> it's well beyond that.

And yet, the fact remains that you can't send Mail if you don't turn iCloud
backup for Mail on.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 8, 2018, 9:59:57 PM3/8/18
to
In article <news:080320182150577234%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

> apple mail does *not* require icloud anything to send or receive email.
> period.

And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 8, 2018, 10:02:01 PM3/8/18
to
In article <news:slrnpa3t5u....@Snow.local>, Lewis wrote:

> If you do not have an email account configured for Mail, then Mail will
> not work.

If you created an iCloud account (e.g., f...@iCloud.com) and you turn iCloud
backup for mail off, you can't log into your "blue" iOS Mail, but if you
turn iCloud backup for iOS Mail on, it works fine.

I had someone try this on a similar iPad where the bug is 100% reproducible
in seconds.

Why?

nospam

unread,
Mar 8, 2018, 10:03:59 PM3/8/18
to
In article <p7st8k$1ouv$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> > it's well beyond that.
>
> And yet, the fact remains that you can't send Mail if you don't turn iCloud
> backup for Mail on.

i do it every day. so do hundreds of millions of others.

nospam

unread,
Mar 8, 2018, 10:04:00 PM3/8/18
to
In article <p7stb9$1p28$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
> your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.

you have *no* clue what you're doing.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 10:05:59 PM3/8/18
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nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 10:11:13 PM3/8/18
to
In article <p7stmi$1pi0$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> >> And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
> >> your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.
> >
> > you have *no* clue what you're doing.
>
> And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
> your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.

further demonstrating just how clueless you are.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 10:22:19 PM3/8/18
to
In article <news:080320182211120115%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
>> your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.
>
> further demonstrating just how clueless you are.

And yet, it's a fact that if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't
use Mail.

Jolly Roger

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Mar 8, 2018, 11:09:32 PM3/8/18
to
LOL! Of course, there's no such thing as "iCloud backup for Mail".
Apparently the resident nym-switching troll's irrational fear and hatred
of all things Apple blinds him completely from seeing that the setting
he keeps ignorantly toggling has absolutely *nothing* to do with
backups. Meanwhile, as he bumbles around like a lost technophobe and
constantly belittles Apple users, the rest of us use Mail without a
fucking hitch all day every day. He's a stubborn, foolish old man. Just
pathetic.

Jolly Roger

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Mar 8, 2018, 11:13:44 PM3/8/18
to
On 2018-03-09, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
The really hilarious thing is he is:

a) disabling the iCloud account he set up in Settings, and

b) still expecting Mail to be able to use that account (!), and then

c) trolling the Apple news groups about it...

His pure stupidity is on display for all to see. This from the
nym-switching troll who claims all other iOS users are idiots compared
to him... Fucking comical. : D

Jolly Roger

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Mar 8, 2018, 11:15:21 PM3/8/18
to
On 2018-03-09, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <p7sq1o$1lek$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
>> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?
>
> It does not.
>
>> I'm setting up a new 128GB iPad, after creating the mandatory iCloud
>
> there is no mandatory iCloud. At all.
>
>> - Mail = off
>
> If you do not have an email account configured for Mail, then Mail will
> not work.

You'd think that would be *blatantly* obvious to someone who
*constantly* claims to be "way smarter than the average Apple
user"...but nope. : D

dorayme

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Mar 9, 2018, 3:04:30 AM3/9/18
to
In article <080320182150587264%nos...@nospam.invalid>,
nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > the level of stupidity in this post is approaching Trump levels.
>
> it's well beyond that.

There is a beyond that?

--
dorayme

Lloyd

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Mar 9, 2018, 9:48:22 AM3/9/18
to
Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> Wrote in message:
I read this whole thread on another machine this morning. While I
figure it is just another of your incessants trolls, here's a
solution you might consider.

Get Edison Mail. Its the one I use because the iOS Mail app seems
to have issues with my live.com email account. And I think
Edison Mail is overall a better product, and it is free. Or get
another email app that you might like better, most are free
though not all, just as with Android mail apps.

--
Lloyd

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 9, 2018, 1:18:08 PM3/9/18
to
In article <news:fgfl5l...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> Get Edison Mail. Its the one I use because the iOS Mail app seems
> to have issues with my live.com email account. And I think
> Edison Mail is overall a better product, and it is free. Or get
> another email app that you might like better, most are free
> though not all, just as with Android mail apps.

Thanks Loyd for suggesting Edison Mail for those who don't want to have to
enable iCloud settings just to read and send email.

As you noted, there are plenty of robust MUAs on Android (e.g., K-9 Mail)
so there should be similar sets of working MUAs on iOS that don't require
the iCloud settings to be turned on.

Taking you up on your helpful suggestion, after checking this setting:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

I downloaded "Email - Edison Mail, by Edison Software Corporation"
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/email-edison-mail/id922793622?mt=8

When first run, "Edison Mail" provides a list of server setups:
- Gmail
- Yahoo
- Outlook
- AOL
- iCloud
- Exchange
- Office356
- Other

Where I selected "iCloud" and where the warning came up:
"As of June 15th, 2017, Apple requires all third-party apps that access
iCloud information to utilize app-specific passwords, this includes
our Email app."

Moving forward, I entered in the correct iCloud username & password but iOS
pops up the message "Your username or password was incorrect. Make sure
you're using your app-specific password."

Looking up what an "app-sepcific password" is, the Apple support says:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397
"To generate and use app-specific passwords, your Apple ID must
be protected with two-factor authentication."

As a test, I had no problem using Edison Mail to log into an existing Gmail
account, so it's aparently just iCloud accounts that Edison Mail can't
allow you into with your correct iCloud account username and password.

nospam

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Mar 9, 2018, 1:31:46 PM3/9/18
to
In article <p7uj4s$p1h$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> Where I selected "iCloud" and where the warning came up:
> "As of June 15th, 2017, Apple requires all third-party apps that access
> iCloud information to utilize app-specific passwords, this includes
> our Email app."
>
> Moving forward, I entered in the correct iCloud username & password but iOS
> pops up the message "Your username or password was incorrect. Make sure
> you're using your app-specific password."
>
> Looking up what an "app-sepcific password" is, the Apple support says:
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397
> "To generate and use app-specific passwords, your Apple ID must
> be protected with two-factor authentication."
>
> As a test, I had no problem using Edison Mail to log into an existing Gmail
> account, so it's aparently just iCloud accounts that Edison Mail can't
> allow you into with your correct iCloud account username and password.

nope. it's *you* who fucked up yet another thing.

ElfinArc

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Mar 9, 2018, 2:28:24 PM3/9/18
to
Yep. Apple requires app specific passwords for non-apple apps for security
reasons. That should be counted as a plus btw.

--
Elfin

Jolly Roger

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Mar 9, 2018, 3:48:07 PM3/9/18
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It’s only a negative to Apple-hating trolls.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 9, 2018, 5:09:18 PM3/9/18
to
In article
<news:867033820.542316354.772...@news.individual.net>,
ElfinArc wrote:

>>> As a test, I had no problem using Edison Mail to log into an existing Gmail
>>> account, so it's aparently just iCloud accounts that Edison Mail can't
>>> allow you into with your correct iCloud account username and password.
>>
>> nope. it's *you* who fucked up yet another thing.
>>
>
> Yep. Apple requires app specific passwords for non-apple apps for security
> reasons. That should be counted as a plus btw.

Thanks Elfin for explaining that Apple forces only it's iCloud domain
accounts to employ onerous undesired unwanted two-factor authorization even
if and when Apple's iCloud-domain account users don't want it.

The fact is that Apple allows all other mail-server domains (e.g., Google,
AOL, Yahoo, Exchange, whatever) to use the users desired real login &
password credentials which is, by its very nature, exactly what the user
wants.

Hence, it's /only/ the iCloud-domain accounts where Apple forces its loyal
users to use an undesired password mechanism that is not of the users'
choosing.

If the users want to use a login and password of their own choosing, then
the loyal Apple iCloud-account users /must/ turn on this setting:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

And even then, these users now /must/ use /only/ Apple's (blue icon) "Mail"
app, if they wish to use a login and password of their own choosing.

There's no way around this Apple-only iCloud-domain-only unwanted
unnecessary Apple-mandated restriction on /just/ iCloud-domain accounts,
except to use Apple's own Mail app.

What Apple is doing, effectively, for iCloud-domain accounts, is forcing
users to use the Apple "Mail" app if the user wants to use a login and
password of their own choosing, because, in effect, using any other
application other than Apple's own "Mail" application, will force the user
to employ two-factor authorization that the user doesn't even want.

Hence, like all things Apple, it's designed more for making users use the
Apple "Mail" app than it is for security, since the Apple Mail app itself
doesn't need the two-factor authorization for iCloud-domain mail accounts.

I realize nospam /understands/ this restriction full well, but that folks
like Jolly Roger and Lewis and dorayme don't have the mental acuity to
understand those details.

Just in case I wasn't clear about the facts, I think only three people here
/understand/ what I just wrote:
a. I hope you do (let me know if you do)
b. I hope that Lloyd does (he can let me know if he does)
c. I hope that nospam undertands this (but he'll never admit it)

The rest who posted to this thread (i.e., Lewis, dorayme, Jolly Roger)
don't have anywhere near the mental capacity necessary to understand what I
just wrote, which is an empirical fact I've reproduced a few times to make
sure it was a correct statement.

Let me know if you need me to clarify, since the half dozen Apple
Apologists have no clue what is actually going on since all they know is
what Apple Marketing tells them to think.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 5:17:44 PM3/9/18
to
In article <news:fgfl5l...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> Get Edison Mail. Its the one I use because the iOS Mail app seems
> to have issues with my live.com email account. And I think
> Edison Mail is overall a better product, and it is free. Or get
> another email app that you might like better, most are free
> though not all, just as with Android mail apps.

Thanks Lloyd for that excellent suggestion of using Edison Mail.

It's a wonderful app that allows users to have multiple accounts within tg
same app, so it's better, in that respect, than single-user
mail-user-agents (MUAs).

In fact, your suggestion of using Edison Mail is so useful that I've
already walked one of the users I'm helping get used to her iPad to get
used to Edison Mail, because it's (IMHO), far better than the Apple "Mail"
app.

Unfortunately, for iCloud-domain users only, Apple restricts all MUAs other
than the Apple Mail app from allowing the users to employ a login/password
of their own choosing.

Hence, the only app that allows Apple iCloud-domain users to use a
login/password of their own choosing, as of June 15th, 2017, is Apple's own
"Mail" app.

Even then, that Mail app won't work unless you turn this setting on:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

These are facts which I hope you can appreciate are accurate, as opposed to
everything you see in this thread from the likes of nospam (who knows the
facts, but he'll never admit them) or dorayme, Lewis, and Jolly Roger who
don't have the mental capacity to understand those facts I just wrote
above.

nospam

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Mar 9, 2018, 5:19:06 PM3/9/18
to
In article <p7v0mb$1h7n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> Thanks Elfin for explaining that Apple forces only it's iCloud domain
> accounts to employ onerous undesired unwanted two-factor authorization even
> if and when Apple's iCloud-domain account users don't want it.

2-factor is not forced, although it should be.

Lloyd

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Mar 9, 2018, 5:59:15 PM3/9/18
to
Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> Wrote in message:
I fully understand what you are saying, but you're wrong in parts
of it. The 2-factor system is a security system and is quite
good, you don't have to use it however. Here's a link for your
reading pleasure:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204915

Note that you can turn it off.

Also note that the design is about close ties between a specified
client(s) and the server side. And since Apple can control both
with their client and server, only Apple produced apps are
'trusted'.

Any other apps need to gain that trust, hence the app specific
passwords. Since it isn't a big deal to use, why bitch? Of
course that is a rhetorical question because in your case, the
answer is "so you can bitch and troll"! :)

--
Lloyd

Lloyd

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 6:00:59 PM3/9/18
to
Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> Wrote in message:
> In article <news:fgfl5l...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:
>
>> Get Edison Mail. Its the one I use because the iOS Mail app seems
>> to have issues with my live.com email account. And I think
>> Edison Mail is overall a better product, and it is free. Or get
>> another email app that you might like better, most are free
>> though not all, just as with Android mail apps.
>
> Thanks Lloyd for that excellent suggestion of using Edison Mail.
>
> It's a wonderful app that allows users to have multiple accounts within tg
> same app, so it's better, in that respect, than single-user
> mail-user-agents (MUAs).
>
> In fact, your suggestion of using Edison Mail is so useful that I've
> already walked one of the users I'm helping get used to her iPad to get
> used to Edison Mail, because it's (IMHO), far better than the Apple "Mail"
> app.
>
> Unfortunately, for iCloud-domain users only, Apple restricts all MUAs other
> than the Apple Mail app from allowing the users to employ a login/password
> of their own choosing.
>
> Hence, the only app that allows Apple iCloud-domain users to use a
> login/password of their own choosing, as of June 15th, 2017, is Apple's own
> "Mail" app.
>
It is called tight security and since you are so hung up on
security and hiding who you are, you should be wondering why
everybody isn't doing it instead of bitching because Apple
does.

--
Lloyd

nospam

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 6:26:38 PM3/9/18
to
In article <fgghu2...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd
<lloy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The 2-factor system is a security system and is quite
> good, you don't have to use it however.

true. it's not required, however, it should be.

also, 2-factor should *not* use sms, which unfortunately, many entities
who should know better require, namely financial institutions.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 7:11:25 PM3/9/18
to
In article <news:fggi18...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> It is called tight security and since you are so hung up on
> security and hiding who you are, you should be wondering why
> everybody isn't doing it instead of bitching because Apple
> does.

Think about the problem set as an adult would.

On iOS, Apple makes it such that if you have an iCloud-domain mail address,
then you can only use a password of your choosing on iOS if you use the
Apple Mail MUA, but if you use any other MUA but Apple's MUA (as of June
15th 2017), then you must maintain a password that you don't even want in
the first place, which is over and above your real password.

I would /love/ for the facts in that statement to be wrong, but ...

Those are all valid, verified facts, are they not?

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 7:11:36 PM3/9/18
to
In article <news:fgghu2...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> I fully understand what you are saying...

Thank you for being one of the rare adults on this newsgroup who
understands the questions and the facts presented.

That you understand the facts is good because I only speak facts, where in
this case, I reproduced all that I wrote about, to ensure that they were
empirical valid verified facts.

> but you're wrong in parts of it.

It would be /great/ if I were wrong, but (see below), you can NOT turn off
the unwanted two-factor authorization in my real-world circumstances of
using the Edison Mail app, according to the very article that you provided.
http://i.cubeupload.com/I6vi11.jpg

You can hit the two-factor-authorization switch all you want on the iPad
settings, but it won't make a difference either way to the facts presented
in this thread.
http://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

Here's an adult summary of those real-world facts.
a. If the iOS user doesn't want 2-factor authorization, they don't need to
enable it /on the iOS device!/ (this is a fact)

b. Yet, if the iOS user created an iCloud account this week (which is what
I did) on iOS 11.1.2, then the fact is that this user must turn on this
iCloud setting shown below if they wish to use the Apple "Mail" MUA:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

c. If the iOS user wishes to use a /different/ MUA than the Apple MUA,
then, as of June 15th of last year, the user /must/ forever maintain a
/different/ password, which is one that is not of their choosing,. and they
must maintain that different password for /each/ MUA that they wish to use
that is not the specific Apple "Mail" MUA.

Those are facts that I /wish/ were wrong, but I tested each one of them, so
they're valid verified facts, are they not?

> The 2-factor system is a security system and is quite
> good,

Let's agree that, speaking as adults, this entire thread is /not/ at all
about whether or not two-factor authorization is good or bad for a
grandmother or her children or a sister or her boyfriend, etc.

Let's just assume that the user doesn't want what turns out to be
essentially arbitrary passwords not of the users' choosing for each MUA
that is not the Apple MUA.

> you don't have to use it however.

Your own article backs up every fact I previoously presented that you said
was incorrect, so I think one of us is not understanding the other
sufficiently fully.

I agree with you that Apple designed the situation such that if you use the
Apple MUA, then you get to use a password of your choosing, but only if you
use Apple's MUA (as of June 15th, 2017).

If I use any other MUA on my brand-new iPad, which has a brand new iCloud
account, then the need for what turns out to be an essentially arbitrary
password can't be turned off (that's what the article says anyway - does it
not?).

Before you answer, look at my valid verified facts presented above & below,
where I realize the details are complex in that nothing Apple says appears
to pan out as the truth when tested in the real world.

> Here's a link for your
> reading pleasure:
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204915

The fact is that I showed you in the above screenshots that I have
two-factor authorization turned off /on the iPad/ but that has no effect on
the facts that I am presenting here with respect to an essentially
arbitrary password required for any other MUA but the Apple MUA.

If I use any other MUA than the Apple MUA, this new iCloud account I made
/must/ use a authorization method that I don't want to use.

> Note that you can turn it off.

I realize there is detail involved here, where, in the real world, you
can't turn off the fact that only the Apple MUA allows you to have a
password of your choosing for iCloud-domain accounts (even if you have
two-factor authorization turned off on the iPad).

Note how ambiguous Apple always is when talking about real-world facts:
"You can't turn off two-factor authentication for "some" accounts
created in iOS 10.3 or macOS Sierra 10.12.4 and later."
Where it's not obvious what 'some' means in that sentence, particularly
relating to the iCloud account I just created this week on the new iOS
11.2.1 iPad.

I'll add the word "only" to the next sentence, to make the real world
clerer to you:
"[Only] If you created your Apple ID in an earlier version of
iOS or macOS, you can turn off two-factor authentication."

Hence, this suggestion of turning off multi-factor authorization doesn't
actually work in the real world for any MUA other than for Apple's own MUA.

That's not security.

That's simply a way of making it harder to use any other MUA than Apple's
MUA with an iCloud-domain email account.

> Also note that the design is about close ties between a specified
> client(s) and the server side. And since Apple can control both
> with their client and server, only Apple produced apps are
> 'trusted'.

That makes sense that Apple "trusts" their own walled-garden ecosystem.

> Any other apps need to gain that trust, hence the app specific
> passwords. Since it isn't a big deal to use, why bitch? Of
> course that is a rhetorical question because in your case, the
> answer is "so you can bitch and troll"! :)

You and ElfinArc are the only ones in this thread who seem to be adults, so
I will simply gently admonish you to please not fall into the childish trap
of calling valid verified facts a "bitch and troll" simply because you may
happen not to like those valid verified facts.

Everything I presented is valid verified fact.
1. I created an iCloud-domain iCloud account this week (e.g., x...@iCloud.com)
2. I never turned on two-factor authorization for that account on the iPad.
3. I can easily log into that iCloud-domain mail account using Apple's MUA.
4. However, using Apple MUA app requires turning on the iCloud setting:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off
5. Any other MUA but Apple's MUA requires a password not of your choosing!

I empirically checked those facts, so I know them to be correct.

I would /love/ for the conclusion to be wrong - so - if I erred, please let
me know where, since I only use sentient adult logical thought processes.

nospam

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 7:16:20 PM3/9/18
to
In article <p7v7rj$1sc3$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> It would be /great/ if I were wrong,

you are in just about everything.

ElfinArc

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 7:46:38 PM3/9/18
to
Yep, those are the facts, but it is optional. You can chose a lesser
security model which makes your ‘facts’ just bullshit to troll with.

--
Elfin

ElfinArc

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 7:46:39 PM3/9/18
to
It must be very boring on that mountaintop he lives on. :)

--
Elfin

Your Name

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 8:11:08 PM3/9/18
to
You're massively confusing things.

A. The email app you use is in most irrelevant and down to pure
personal preference. The password to access an iCloud email
address will be the same no matter which app you use.

B. If you're using an iCloud email address, then you should set it up
using Mail's, or more precisely iOS's "iCloud" option, not "Other"

C. The "Other" option is for setting up email accounts from any other
third-party email providers which aren't in the list above it, such
as the now-rare ISP provided email account, GMX.com, Mail.com,
Yandex.com, etc.

I don't use an iCloud email address, so I don't know whether or not it
requires the backup option to be turned on, or why it should require
that (if it does). Possibly it use the backup mechanism to run the IMAP
email account access, but that's unlikely.



Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 9:37:45 PM3/9/18
to
In article
<news:1560867845.542334360.62...@news.individual.net>,
ElfinArc wrote:

> Yep, those are the facts, but it is optional. You can chose a lesser
> security model which makes your ¡facts¢ just bullshit to troll with.

For a moment, you had acted almost of the mentality of an adult, but this
statement shows you're just like the other Apple Apologists who instantly
turn into little children when confronted with facts they don't like.

This is fact, whether you wish to believe it or not.

As of June of last year, if you create a new iCloud-domain email account,
as I did this week, the only MUA on iOS that will allow you to use your own
password is the Apple MUA.

That you can't comprehend that simple fact doesn't make that fact bullshit.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 9, 2018, 10:14:52 PM3/9/18
to
In article <news:p7vbb8$143$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name wrote:

> You're massively confusing things.

Thank you for being an adult when you converse on this iOS newsgroup.

I agree with you that people seem to be confusing 'two-factor
authorization', which Lloyd (I think) brought up ...
http://i.cubeupload.com/pqP3oW.jpg

and the fact that as of June 15th, 2017, iOS will no longer allow a user to
use a password of their own choosing if they use an MUA that is not the
official iOS "Mail" MUA for an iCloud-domain email account.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

> A. The email app you use is in most irrelevant and down to pure
> personal preference. The password to access an iCloud email
> address will be the same no matter which app you use.

We both /wish/ that statement were true, but as of June 15th 2017, Apple
made their MUA the /only/ MUA that will allow the user to use a password of
the users' choosing.
http://i.cubeupload.com/v29XxR.jpg

> B. If you're using an iCloud email address, then you should set it up
> using Mail's, or more precisely iOS's "iCloud" option, not "Other"

Just to be clear, nobody is talking about using "Other".
We're all talking about hitting the "iCloud" option.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ltJinM.jpg

> C. The "Other" option is for setting up email accounts from any other
> third-party email providers which aren't in the list above it, such
> as the now-rare ISP provided email account, GMX.com, Mail.com,
> Yandex.com, etc.

You bring up a good point that there are ways to screw this up, but, to be
clear, nobody is talking about using "Other" as the mail-setup option.

We're all talking about hitting the "iCloud" option.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ltJinM.jpg

> I don't use an iCloud email address, so I don't know whether or not it
> requires the backup option to be turned on, or why it should require
> that (if it does). Possibly it use the backup mechanism to run the IMAP
> email account access, but that's unlikely.

The fact is that, as of June 15th 2017, the only iOS MUA that can get
icloud-domain email using the users' desired password is the Apple "Mail"
MUA.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

Every other IOS MUA is forced to require a password that is not the users'
desired password. Apple clearly said so herself.
http://i.cubeupload.com/v29XxR.jpg

That is just a fact, whether we like it or not - it's a fact.

Your Name

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 1:35:43 AM3/10/18
to
The original message did say they had tried to use the "Other" option
and got the same result.



>> I don't use an iCloud email address, so I don't know whether or not it
>> requires the backup option to be turned on, or why it should require
>> that (if it does). Possibly it use the backup mechanism to run the IMAP
>> email account access, but that's unlikely.
>
> The fact is that, as of June 15th 2017, the only iOS MUA that can get
> icloud-domain email using the users' desired password is the Apple "Mail"
> MUA.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg
>
> Every other IOS MUA is forced to require a password that is not the users'
> desired password. Apple clearly said so herself.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/v29XxR.jpg
>
> That is just a fact, whether we like it or not - it's a fact.

Possible simple solution: Use any free email provider and simply have
the iCloud email server auto-forward (and then delete) the emails to
the new account.

Even simpler solution: Just turn on the iCloud backup, as long as you
don't exceed the storage limit.


Andreas Rutishauser

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 1:49:06 AM3/10/18
to
In article <p7v7r9$1sbr$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> In article <news:fggi18...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:
>
> > It is called tight security and since you are so hung up on
> > security and hiding who you are, you should be wondering why
> > everybody isn't doing it instead of bitching because Apple
> > does.
>
> Think about the problem set as an adult would.
>
> On iOS, Apple makes it such that if you have an iCloud-domain mail address,
> then you can only use a password of your choosing on iOS if you use the
> Apple Mail MUA, but if you use any other MUA but Apple's MUA (as of June
> 15th 2017), then you must maintain a password that you don't even want in
> the first place, which is over and above your real password.

if you have two-factor authentification turned on for your Apple-ID you
have to use app-specific passwords to access iCloud content with third
party apps:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397>
This is not restricted to iOS, but also valid for macOS, Windows,
probably watchOS, tvOS. Can't talk for the real world of Android and
Unix derivates, but would think it is the same there.

If you don't have two-factor authentification turned on for your
Apple-ID?

Cheers
Andreas

--
MacAndreas Rutishauser, <http://www.MacAndreas.ch>
EDV-Dienstleistungen, Hard- und Software, Internet und Netzwerk
Beratung, Unterstuetzung und Schulung
<mailto:and...@MacAndreas.ch>, Fon: 044 / 721 36 47

Andreas Rutishauser

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 2:12:46 AM3/10/18
to
In article <p7v7rj$1sc3$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> In article <news:fgghu2...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> > Here's a link for your
> > reading pleasure:
> > https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204915

> Everything I presented is valid verified fact.
> 1. I created an iCloud-domain iCloud account this week (e.g., x...@iCloud.com)
> 2. I never turned on two-factor authorization for that account on the iPad.

from the article linked above:
Apple IDs created in iOS 10.3 or macOS 10.12.4 and later are protected
with two-factor authentication by default.

So, yes, you turned on two-factor authorisation.

> 3. I can easily log into that iCloud-domain mail account using Apple's MUA.
> 4. However, using Apple MUA app requires turning on the iCloud setting:
> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off
> 5. Any other MUA but Apple's MUA requires a password not of your choosing!
>
> I empirically checked those facts, so I know them to be correct.
>
> I would /love/ for the conclusion to be wrong - so - if I erred, please let
> me know where, since I only use sentient adult logical thought processes.

And what is your problem?

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 2:16:57 AM3/10/18
to
In article <news:andreas-301EBD...@news.individual.de>, Andreas
Rutishauser wrote:

> f you have two-factor authentification turned on for your Apple-ID you
> have to use app-specific passwords to access iCloud content with third
> party apps:
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397>
> This is not restricted to iOS, but also valid for macOS, Windows,
> probably watchOS, tvOS. Can't talk for the real world of Android and
> Unix derivates, but would think it is the same there.
>
> If you don't have two-factor authentification turned on for your
> Apple-ID?

Hi Andreas,
Thank you for being an adult, which is a rarity on this iOS newsgroup.

I don't think, from the tests I ran anyway, that it matters whether you
have two-factor authentication on or not.
https://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

The issue seems to be that Apple treats non-Apple MUAs differently than the
Apple MUA, as of June 15th, 2017 anyway...
https://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

Everyone seems to be confusing the two issues, and, well, maybe they're
related, but my empirical results definitely show the problem even when
two-factor authentication was clearly never turned on.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 2:23:01 AM3/10/18
to
In article <news:andreas-D1DDE5...@news.individual.de>, Andreas
Rutishauser wrote:

> from the article linked above:
> Apple IDs created in iOS 10.3 or macOS 10.12.4 and later are protected
> with two-factor authentication by default.
>
> So, yes, you turned on two-factor authorisation.

First off, thank you for being an adult, which is rare in this ng.

Secondly, I agree that it's really hard to figure out /what/ Apple was
actually saying in that support article, so maybe it's on (as I comprehend
the English language better than most people do - and I contend that Apple
was cryptic in that discussion since you could take their sentences to mean
completely different things - which - if you read their public battery
apology - Apple is super adept at).

Nonetheless, what does this screenshot tell you about two-factor
authorization for my iCloud-domain Apple iD on the new iPad?
https://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

It sure looks off to me.
Is it?

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 2:30:52 AM3/10/18
to
In article <news:p7vubq$pbn$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name wrote:

>> We're all talking about hitting the "iCloud" option.
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/ltJinM.jpg
>
> The original message did say they had tried to use the "Other" option
> and got the same result.

Fair enough. And thank you again for being an adult, which is hard to find
on this newsgroup.

> Possible simple solution: Use any free email provider and simply have
> the iCloud email server auto-forward (and then delete) the emails to
> the new account.

I agree with you that, once you know of this arbitrary restriction on
passwords of the users' choosing for all but the Mail MUA, you can ahead of
time avoid having an iCloud-domain address.

I didn't know what I know now when I set up the iPad, where I didn't know
how bad the situation got as of June 15th, 2017, with respect to Apple
revoking your privilege of using a password of your own choosing for all
but the Apple official MUA.

> Even simpler solution: Just turn on the iCloud backup, as long as you
> don't exceed the storage limit.

To both your points, the /last/ thing I want is iCloud backup, and 5GB is
downright puny but I don't understand how turning on iCloud backup solves
the problem of passwords not being of your own choosing.

How does turning on iCloud backup solve the problem at hand?

Lloyd Parsons

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 9:57:12 AM3/10/18
to
Except for the pesky fact that it was turned on by default, you should
have turned it off when setting up.

BTW seems Google does the same thing though not by default.

Lloyd Parsons

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 10:01:08 AM3/10/18
to
It would allow the use of Apple's mail app. Otherwise it wouldn't
solve your non-issue since Apple doesn't allow for turning it off after
the fact for relatively new Apple ID creations it seems. While I don't
find how it works to be onerous at all, I can understand it being an
issue for someone used to the lesser secure systems that doesn't want
the added security.

Of course, in your case, it isn't about anything other than something
to bitch about and troll with. :) BTW, it is a decent troll.

nospam

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 10:19:20 AM3/10/18
to
In article <andreas-301EBD...@news.individual.de>, Andreas
Rutishauser <and...@macandreas.ch> wrote:


>
> if you have two-factor authentification turned on for your Apple-ID you
> have to use app-specific passwords to access iCloud content with third
> party apps:
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397>
> This is not restricted to iOS, but also valid for macOS, Windows,
> probably watchOS, tvOS. Can't talk for the real world of Android and
> Unix derivates, but would think it is the same there.

it is.

<https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185833?hl=en>
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12409/microsoft-account-app-pa
sswords-two-step-verification>
<https://www.fastmail.com/help/clients/apppassword.html>

Jolly Roger

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 11:55:13 AM3/10/18
to
On 2018-03-10, Lloyd Parsons <em...@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2018-03-10 07:30:51 +0000, Ragnusen Ultred said:
>
>> How does turning on iCloud backup solve the problem at hand?
>
> It would allow the use of Apple's mail app.

Please pay attention. It's not "iCloud backup" since it has absolutely
*nothing* to do with *backups*. The setting in question is for his
iCloud mail account at: Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail.
And he knows this has nothing to do with backups, but ignores it and
claims otherwise because: troll.

> Otherwise it wouldn't solve your non-issue since Apple doesn't allow
> for turning it off after the fact for relatively new Apple ID
> creations it seems.

What are you talking about? Of course you can turn it off - that's
precisely what is causing his manufactured "problem". He:
a) configured an iCloud mail account on the device, then
b) turned it off in Settings, then
c) turned around and complained that he could no longer send and receive
iCloud emails on the device, like a fucking moron.

Note that none of this has *anything* to do with iCloud backups (despite
his asinine insistence otherwise). And even if it did, of *course* you
can turn iCloud backups on or off at will on *any* iOS device since it
is *completely* *optional*.

> Of course, in your case, it isn't about anything other than something
> to bitch about and troll with. :) BTW, it is a decent troll.

No. It really isn't. It's fucking lame. And anyone with a clue sees
right through it.

Wilf

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 12:20:55 PM3/10/18
to
I'm watching this thread with huge amusement ... why do people get so
heated just in support (or otherwise) of a particular kind of
technology. I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every
day but, really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations
of idolatry! Can no-one answer a question without heaping insults on
someone who doesn't necessarily understand the technology? Sheesh! Cue,
more insults, I'm sure.

Wilf

Jolly Roger

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 1:48:08 PM3/10/18
to
It's unfortunate for you that you haven't watched the Apple news groups
for any length of time with as much interest. If you had, you'd know
that "Ragnusen Ultred" is a long-time resident Apple-hating nym-shifting
troll whose manufactured "problems" are thinly-disguised trolls aimed at
disrupting these otherwise peaceful newsgroups. Here's just a partial
list of his most recent nyms, which he changes regularly to avoid
filtering:

Paul B. Andersen, Adair Bordon, Liam O'Connor, Juan Camilo Blanco,
Alphonse Arnaud, Danny D., Vinny Perado, Whitney Ryan, Tony Cito, Adam
H. Kerman, Werner Obermeier, Steven Bornfeld, Winston_Smith, Mitch
Kaufmann, Paul M. Cook, E. Robinson, Alice J., P. Ng, Tam Nguyen, VPN
user, Joe Clock, Marob Katon, Chris Rangoon, AArdvarks, Conradt, Gustl
Hoffmann, Henry Jones, Tatsuki Takahashi, AL, Horace Algier, Karl
Schultz, Arthur Conan Doyle, Algeria Horan, Horace Algier, Raymond
Spruance III, Martin Chuzzlewit II, John Harmon, Yanis Bernard, Stijn De
Jong, Abe Swanson, Misha Vasiliev, Tomos Davies, Chaya Eve, Lionel
Muller, Roy Tremblay, Frank S, Chaya Eve, Blake Snyder, harry newton,
Harold Newton, ultred ragnusen, Ragnusen Ultred

In this particular thread, "Ragnusen" created an iCloud mail account on
his iOS device, then he disabled that account in Settings, and then he
turned around and created a thread here complaining that Apple's Mail
app won't work if you disable 'iCloud backups" - except backups have
absolutely nothing to do with his problem. He specifically disabled the
account after he created it. He manufactured this so-called "problem".
He does this over and over again to troll.

> why do people get so heated just in support (or otherwise) of a
> particular kind of technology.

That's a question you should ask "Ragnusen". He feigns ignorance about
manufacture "problems" in order to troll the Apple news groups and
belittle the complete strangers in these groups on a daily and hourly
basis, apparently having nothing else to do with his wasted life.

> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day but,
> really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations of
> idolatry!

Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is regulars
here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and trolls. You just
don't see it for what it is because you haven't been paying attention as
long as the rest of us have.

> Can no-one answer a question without heaping insults on someone who
> doesn't necessarily understand the technology? Sheesh! Cue, more
> insults, I'm sure.

You're new here. "Ragnusen" constantly claims Apple users are idiots,
just as he constantly claims Apple's operating systems and devices are
inferior to his beloved Linux/Android. You haven't seen it because you
haven't observed anything from him outside of this one little thread.
Stick around for a while and you will no doubt notice the pattern of
trolling from this individual. Of course you will have to recognize that
he changes his name frequently, and to identify him requires recognizing
his writing and conversational styles. The regulars who spend time in
these newsgroups instantly recognize it, but you may not if you don't
spend any time here.

Wilf

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 1:54:30 PM3/10/18
to
On 10/03/2018 6:48pm, Jolly Roger wrote:

>> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day but,
>> really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations of
>> idolatry!
> Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is regulars
> here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and trolls. You just
> don't see it for what it is because you haven't been paying attention as
> long as the rest of us have.
>

I think my case rests ... I post once, and you already are jumping in to
calling me "Liar". If you yourself are not a troll, or at best a
seemingly very jumpy, aggressive person, why not say something like "I
don't agree with you. Nobody here is idolizing ..."?

Wilf

Jolly Roger

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 2:08:21 PM3/10/18
to
On 2018-03-10, Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:
> On 10/03/2018 6:48pm, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day but,
>>> really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations of
>>> idolatry!
>>
>> Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is
>> regulars here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and
>> trolls. You just don't see it for what it is because you haven't been
>> paying attention as long as the rest of us have.
>
> I think my case rests ... I post once, and you already are jumping in
> to calling me "Liar".

Pointing out trolls from a long-time resident troll isn't "idolizing
Apple". If you dislike being called out on an obvious lie, your should
stop lying.

> If you yourself are not a troll, or at best a seemingly very jumpy,
> aggressive person, why not say something like "I don't agree with you.
> Nobody here is idolizing ..."?

"I don't agree with you. Nobody here is idolizing."

All better? Or are you still dead set on supporting the resident
nym-switching Apple-hating troll?

Wilf

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 2:11:35 PM3/10/18
to
On 10/03/2018 7:08pm, Jolly Roger wrote:

> On 2018-03-10, Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:
>> On 10/03/2018 6:48pm, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>
>>>> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day but,
>>>> really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations of
>>>> idolatry!
>>>
>>> Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is
>>> regulars here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and
>>> trolls. You just don't see it for what it is because you haven't been
>>> paying attention as long as the rest of us have.
>>
>> I think my case rests ... I post once, and you already are jumping in
>> to calling me "Liar".
>
> Pointing out trolls from a long-time resident troll isn't "idolizing
> Apple". If you dislike being called out on an obvious lie, your should
> stop lying.
>
>> If you yourself are not a troll, or at best a seemingly very jumpy,
>> aggressive person, why not say something like "I don't agree with you.
>> Nobody here is idolizing ..."?
>
> "I don't agree with you. Nobody here is idolizing."
>
> All better? Or are you still dead set on supporting the resident
> nym-switching Apple-hating troll?
>

I love you. I don't support anybody. I'm just saying that I come to
these groups to get useful information, not to read gratuitous invective
- whether from an "Apple-hating troll" (er, is that not almost
complaining that someone isn't idolising Apple?), from you, or from
anyone else.

Wilf

Jolly Roger

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 2:29:07 PM3/10/18
to
On 2018-03-10, Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:
> On 10/03/2018 7:08pm, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2018-03-10, Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:
>>> On 10/03/2018 6:48pm, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day
>>>>> but, really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations
>>>>> of idolatry!
>>>>
>>>> Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is
>>>> regulars here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and
>>>> trolls. You just don't see it for what it is because you haven't
>>>> been paying attention as long as the rest of us have.
>>>
>>> I think my case rests ... I post once, and you already are jumping
>>> in to calling me "Liar".
>>
>> Pointing out trolls from a long-time resident troll isn't "idolizing
>> Apple". If you dislike being called out on an obvious lie, your
>> should stop lying.
>>
>>> If you yourself are not a troll, or at best a seemingly very jumpy,
>>> aggressive person, why not say something like "I don't agree with
>>> you. Nobody here is idolizing ..."?
>>
>> "I don't agree with you. Nobody here is idolizing."
>>
>> All better? Or are you still dead set on supporting the resident
>> nym-switching Apple-hating troll?
>
> I love you. I don't support anybody.

Your words and actions will bear that out - or not. At the moment,
you're definitely leaning towards supporting the troll. The regulars
here will no doubt give you the benefit of the doubt since you are
relatively new here for now; but continue down your current path of
sticking up for trolls and you'll end up in kill files right next to the
troll's numerous never-ending nyms.

> I'm just saying that I come to these groups to get useful information,
> not to read gratuitous invective - whether from an "Apple-hating
> troll" from you, or from anyone else.

Unfortunately, when you step into a pile of shit, you're going to get
stink on you. In this case, you've inadvertently stepped into the middle
of a multi-year, multi-thread conversation, the context of which is
largely unknown to you. Where you see "gratuitous invective", the rest
of us see a long, ongoing string of conversations with a nym-switching
troll whose aim is clearly to disrupt these news groups with
manufactured "problems" while belittling the complete strangers who post
here.

I find it very interesting, and perhaps telling, that you are ignoring
the fact that this particular "problem" being discussed in this
particular thread is a completely manufactured one: the troll created a
mail account for iCloud, disabled that very same account, then
complained that Apple's Mail client doesn't work if iCloud backups are
disabled, which is patently false. And even after being told that, he
continues to insist this falsity is the case. Rather than acknowledge
this fact, you are choosing to focus on other people who are correcting
him. Very interesting...

> (er, is that not almost complaining that someone isn't idolising
> Apple?),

By that logic, anyone who calls anyone out on their bad behavior is
"idolizing". Not a very sound argument.

Savageduck

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 2:41:47 PM3/10/18
to
On Mar 10, 2018, Wilf wrote
(in article <p81al2$18o2$1...@gioia.aioe.org>):
If you are looking for information regarding iOS devices, or MacOS computer,
then ask your question. You should get a sincere enough response from many of
the regulars here, which in all likelihood is going to answer your question,
or provide a solution to your problem. Just do not expect to get a rational
response from the resident troll of frequently shiftling nyms. All you will
get from him is praise of the capabilities of his favored Android/Linux
devices, and his deliberate avoidance of all that is simple, and normal for
those of us long time users of Apple products. However, you are free to
choice to continue to read all of his verbal polution of this and other NGs.

Many of us filter his shifting nyms as they appear, so that the only time any
of us see his trollish posts is when others respond to him.

--

Regards,
Savageduck

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 6:20:43 PM3/10/18
to
In article <news:fgia26...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd Parsons wrote:

> Except for the pesky fact that it was turned on by default, you should
> have turned it off when setting up.
>
> BTW seems Google does the same thing though not by default.

Hi Lloyd,

I'm assuming you're an adult, so I have to ask a basic adult question,
which is whether you might be confusing these two things?

1. Two factor authorization
https://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

...and...

2. App-specific passwords for non-iOS MUAs
https://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

Are you confusing them in your response, since if you're not, you're going
to have to prove with actual facts that Google requires app-specific
passwords for non-Google MUAs - which - after all - is the main point here.

Please respond as an adult would, as I am treating you as if you are.

Thanks!

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 6:20:45 PM3/10/18
to
In article <news:100320181019133645%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

> it is.
>
> <https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185833?hl=en>
> <https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12409/microsoft-account-app-pa
> sswords-two-step-verification>
> <https://www.fastmail.com/help/clients/apppassword.html>

It's shocking that the entire belief system of Apple Apologists is built
upon absolutely zero facts, since you repeatedly don't seem to comprehend
that there is a difference between...

1. Two factor authorization
https://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

...and...

2. App-specific passwords for non-iOS MUAs
https://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

Is your repeated stellar lack of ability to comprehend facts due to the
fact that you apparently get /all/ your ideas only from Apple Marketing?

Wilf

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 6:22:59 PM3/10/18
to
:D

Wilf

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 6:56:28 PM3/10/18
to
In article <news:fgia9i...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd Parsons wrote:

>> To both your points, the /last/ thing I want is iCloud backup, and 5GB is
>> downright puny but I don't understand how turning on iCloud backup solves
>> the problem of passwords not being of your own choosing.
>>
>> How does turning on iCloud backup solve the problem at hand?
>
> It would allow the use of Apple's mail app. Otherwise it wouldn't
> solve your non-issue since Apple doesn't allow for turning it off after
> the fact for relatively new Apple ID creations it seems.

Thank you Lloyd for acting like an adult would, as adults have always been
in short supply on this iOS newsgroup.

The original question was why the iCloud setting has to be turned on, where
your answer appears to be that it just has to be turned on, case closed.

If that's the best answer we have for why, then so be it. The more
important question that came up in delving why is why Apple forces all MUAs
other than their own MUA to have app-specific passwords which are, by
definition, not passwords of the users' own choosing.

> While I don't
> find how it works to be onerous at all, I can understand it being an
> issue for someone used to the lesser secure systems that doesn't want
> the added security.

It's not the security so much that I object to as the iCloud. I don't want
any data from my phone stored on the iCloud.

I do realize that email has to be stored 'somewhere', at least temporarily,
but I would consider mail to be more on a "server" than on the "cloud"
(although I do agree that the distinction can easily be muddied).

All I want, is what anyone would want who doesn't want their data stored on
the iCloud, is to turn off /evertthing/ on the iOS device that puts my
personal data on the iCloud.

> Of course, in your case, it isn't about anything other than something
> to bitch about and troll with. :) BTW, it is a decent troll.

It's strange but it's a common trait of the Apple Apologists to label all
facts that they don't like, trolls, and to label all questions that they
don't like the answer to, as "bitches".

It should be noted that I participate on Windows, Android, and Linux
newsgroups, where the proportion of adults:children is hugely different
than on iOS newsgroups (which abound in childish sentiments such as you and
the rest of the Apple Apologists repeatedly display).

It's almost as if you feel threatened by facts.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 7:24:43 PM3/10/18
to
In article <news:0001HW.20546C7600...@news.giganews.com>,
Savageduck wrote:

> All you will
> get from him is praise of the capabilities of his favored Android/Linux
> devices, and his deliberate avoidance of all that is simple, and normal for
> those of us long time users of Apple products.

Hi Savageduck,

I ask you to prove your accusation, because I consider it baseless.

What you appear to be strenuously objecting to, are facts about iOS that
you simply don't like.

As one adult, presumably to another, I have to respectfully disagree that I
praise any one operating system over any other, which is an accusation
/only/ made on the iOS newsgroups (for reasons known only to the accusers).

* I simply tell the /truth/ about all operating systems. *

In fact, I simply tell the truth on Linux, e.g.,
- What's a good way to back up Gmail when you've reached the size limit?
- https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/6YHdHFcpGxs

In fact, I simply tell the truth on Android, e.g.,
- When you plug in your phone to usb on your computer, does your file
system mount on Windows 10?
- https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/qxztHvQevDY

In fact, I simply tell the truth on Windows, e.g.,
- SOLVED: How to download an ISO image for Office 2007 Pro in the year 2018
- http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1103137

It's only on the iOS newsgroups, that the truth is considered a troll.

Just as I would ask Jolly Roger why he considers the truth, a troll, I ask
you, Savageduck, why you consider the truth about iOS being praise of
Android/Linux/Windows?

Can you back up a single one of your statements, or, is your entire belief
system always comprised of exactly zero facts that back up your statements?

joe

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 7:31:11 PM3/10/18
to
On 3/10/2018 5:56 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
>



> The original question was why the iCloud setting has to be turned on, where
> your answer appears to be that it just has to be turned on, case closed.
>
Mail is one of the services that iCloud provides. If you want to use it,
you have to leave it turned on. If you don't want to use it, turn it off.

The iCloud mail service is separate from the backup service. The setting
screen allows you to turn of each functionality.



> If that's the best answer we have for why, then so be it. The more
> important question that came up in delving why is why Apple forces all MUAs
> other than their own MUA to have app-specific passwords which are, by
> definition, not passwords of the users' own choosing.
>
>> While I don't
>> find how it works to be onerous at all, I can understand it being an
>> issue for someone used to the lesser secure systems that doesn't want
>> the added security.
>
> It's not the security so much that I object to as the iCloud. I don't want
> any data from my phone stored on the iCloud.

Then just disable iCloud and don't log in. Use of iCloud is not
required. The same applies to the App store.
>
> I do realize that email has to be stored 'somewhere', at least temporarily,
> but I would consider mail to be more on a "server" than on the "cloud"
> (although I do agree that the distinction can easily be muddied).

Then use a different email service. You are not required to use iCloud
email.


>
> All I want, is what anyone would want who doesn't want their data stored on
> the iCloud, is to turn off /evertthing/ on the iOS device that puts my
> personal data on the iCloud.
>

Then don't log in to iCloud, disable the iCloud feature on your iPad. It
is that simple.

>> Of course, in your case, it isn't about anything other than something
>> to bitch about and troll with. :) BTW, it is a decent troll.
>
> It's strange but it's a common trait of the Apple Apologists to label all
> facts that they don't like, trolls, and to label all questions that they
> don't like the answer to, as "bitches".


>
> It should be noted that I participate on Windows, Android, and Linux
> newsgroups, where the proportion of adults:children is hugely different
> than on iOS newsgroups (which abound in childish sentiments such as you and
> the rest of the Apple Apologists repeatedly display).
>
> It's almost as if you feel threatened by facts.
>

You need to realize the iOS devices are different than Android, Windows,
or Linux devices. You'd be better off learning what the iOS device you
have is and then try to configure it the way you want. Starting by
trying to make your iPad the same and your Android devices without
understanding what you actually have will just lead to frustrations on
your part.




Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 8:20:38 PM3/10/18
to
In article <news:p81tca$e9t$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, joe wrote:

> Mail is one of the services that iCloud provides. If you want to use it,
> you have to leave it turned on. If you don't want to use it, turn it off.

Thank you Joe for being an adult in how you responded, as adults are in
short supply on these iOS newsgroups.

I agree with your suggestion that you have to turn on this iCloud button if
you want to use the iCloud MUA to read iCloud-domain email:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

The original question was one of "Why", but what we learned is that there
is a Catch-22 of sorts, because if you turn that setting off, then you have
to use a different MUA, but if you use a different MUA, then you're forced
to use what Apple euphemistically refers to as an "app-specific password",
which is, by its very nature, a password not of the users' choosing.

> The iCloud mail service is separate from the backup service. The setting
> screen allows you to turn of each functionality.

Thank you again, Joe, for clarifying what Jolly Roger also clarified, which
is that the setting below is not an "iCloud backup" setting despite the
user of the word "iCloud" in the description of the setting:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

> Then just disable iCloud and don't log in. Use of iCloud is not
> required. The same applies to the App store.

Thank you Joe for your heartfelt suggestion of "just giving up", which I
know to be common for many users, but it's not my style to "just give up".

Of course, if users don't "just give up", as of June 15th, 2017, Apple
forces them to employ "app-specific" passwords not of their choosing, so,
there is a penalty enforced by Apple for those users who opt to not "just
give up".

In short, these are the options if you have an iCloud-domain Apple ID:
1. You can turn on that iCloud setting - which enables you to use a
password of your own choosing, or,
2. You can turn off that iCloud setting - but then you can never again use
a password of your own choosing.

Those are the only two options, as far as anyone here has stated.
Are they not?

> Then use a different email service. You are not required to use iCloud
> email.

Unfortunately, you are forced, by Apple, to have an Apple ID, and, hence,
you have to /create/ an ID somehow, where, for both Android and for iOS,
the simplest approach is to create a bogus ID such as x...@iCloud.com (which
is what I did).

The problem comes /after/ you've satisfied that forced requirement of
creating an Apple ID, which is, as stated above...
a. If you turn on the iCloud setting to use iOS Mail, you can use a
password of your own choosing, but,
b. If you turn off that iCloud setting to use a non-iOS MUA, you can never
again use a password of your own choosing (after June 15th, 2017).

These are accurately stated facts, are they not?

> Then don't log in to iCloud, disable the iCloud feature on your iPad. It
> is that simple.

I appreciate your repeated advice to "just give up", and, while it wasn't
unexpected of this newsgroup, I tend to not "just give up" whenever I'm
confronted with an artificial limitation imposed by the Apple mothership.

I do the same on Windows and Linux and Android, where "just give up" is
anathema to me.

It's only on an iOS newsgroup that "just give up" seems to be so common
that people get ridiculed for not "just giving up".

> You need to realize the iOS devices are different than Android, Windows,
> or Linux devices.

Thanks Joe for your heartfelt advice that iOS devices are different than
all other common computing devices, all of which I'm intimately familiar
with, and, you'll note, I post prolifically on the Windows, Linux, and
Android newsgroups as well as on iOS newsgroups - since I have all of those
platforms.

While iOS devices are certainly less funcdtional overall than all other
devices, and while iOS devices require desktop computers to do some of the
simplest things that other devices just do, I prefer not to "just give up"
whenever I'm confronted with the inherent limitations of iOS devices.

For example, you'll note, that I slide files back and forth from and to iOS
from and to Windows and Linux computers in the real world, without
installing anything on the Windows and Linux computers.
http://i.cubeupload.com/uyot4R.jpg

This isn't something that is inherently obvious how to do for iOS devices,
mainly because Apple considers the real world (e.g., Linux) to be "not
supported", so we're always left with only two choices when trying to
interface with the real world:
a. Just give up, or,
b. Solve the problem.

To that end, for example, I chose not to "just give up", but to solve the
problem by testing these iOS freeware software applications on my new iOS
device:\
http://i.cubeupload.com/txh6HD.jpg

Where I've honed the potential real-world solutions to this short list:
http://i.cubeupload.com/P6Liet.jpg

Hence, my point is that your heartfelt advice to "just give up" is fine,
but it doesn't work for a person like me, who enjoys having devices that
interface with each other in the real world even though Apple doesn't
support interfacing its devices with the real world.

> You'd be better off learning what the iOS device you
> have is and then try to configure it the way you want.

Thanks again Joe for your heartfelt advice, where you may note that I've
owned iOS devices since the days of iOS 7.0.0 transition to iOS 7.0.1 when
Linux connectivity was shattered by Apple, which is where I learned the
hard way that, at Apple, the real world is "not supported".

So I've been learning how to interface iOS with the real world for quite
some time now, where you'll note that the Apple Apologists always love to
say it's complex, but it's only complex to get iOS devices to work
seamlessly in the real world because Apple makes it complex.

They even state on their own web site that they don't support the very
devices that many of us use every day, which, of course, makes their lives
easier, but which is why many iOS users are so used to "just giving up"
that they don't even realize that's what they do day in and day out.

In contrast, I prefer to find a solution that works in the real world.

> Starting by
> trying to make your iPad the same and your Android devices without
> understanding what you actually have will just lead to frustrations on
> your part.

I respect your opinion that iOS mobile devices are vastly different than
Android mobile devices, but I respectfully beg to differ in that I posit
that /all/ consumer mobile devices do the same thing.

People use them to make phone calls, to send and receive texts, to do
geolocation, to help them find information, to snap photos, to remind them
of things, etc.

I posit that all mobile devices do essentially the same things, just as I
posit all home-use desktop computers do essentially the same things.

I don't say you're wrong in stating that iOS isn't the same as Android, but
I will respectfully disagree with anyone who says that it's ok to "just
give up" when expecting iOS to interface in the real world, just as I
expect Android, Windows, & Linux to interface in the real world.

Thank you again for being an adult, which is in short supply on these iOS
newsgroups.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 8:21:38 PM3/10/18
to
In article <news:p81tca$e9t$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, joe wrote:

> Mail is one of the services that iCloud provides. If you want to use it,
> you have to leave it turned on. If you don't want to use it, turn it off.

Thank you Joe for being an adult in how you responded, as adults are in
short supply on these iOS newsgroups.

I agree with your suggestion that you have to turn on this iCloud button if
you want to use the iCloud MUA to read iCloud-domain email:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

The original question was one of "Why", but what we learned is that there
is a Catch-22 of sorts, because if you turn that setting off, then you have
to use a different MUA, but if you use a different MUA, then you're forced
to use what Apple euphemistically refers to as an "app-specific password",
which is, by its very nature, a password not of the users' choosing.

> The iCloud mail service is separate from the backup service. The setting
> screen allows you to turn of each functionality.

Thank you again, Joe, for clarifying what Jolly Roger also clarified, which
is that the setting below is not an "iCloud backup" setting despite the
user of the word "iCloud" in the description of the setting:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

> Then just disable iCloud and don't log in. Use of iCloud is not
> required. The same applies to the App store.

Thank you Joe for your heartfelt suggestion of "just giving up", which I
know to be common for many users, but it's not my style to "just give up".

Of course, if users don't "just give up", as of June 15th, 2017, Apple
forces them to employ "app-specific" passwords not of their choosing, so,
there is a penalty enforced by Apple for those users who opt to not "just
give up".

In short, these are the options if you have an iCloud-domain Apple ID:
1. You can turn on that iCloud setting - which enables you to use a
password of your own choosing, or,
2. You can turn off that iCloud setting - but then you can never again use
a password of your own choosing.

Those are the only two options, as far as anyone here has stated.
Are they not?

> Then use a different email service. You are not required to use iCloud
> email.

Unfortunately, you are forced, by Apple, to have an Apple ID, and, hence,
you have to /create/ an ID somehow, where, for both Android and for iOS,
the simplest approach is to create a bogus ID such as x...@iCloud.com (which
is what I did).

The problem comes /after/ you've satisfied that forced requirement of
creating an Apple ID, which is, as stated above...
a. If you turn on the iCloud setting to use iOS Mail, you can use a
password of your own choosing, but,
b. If you turn off that iCloud setting to use a non-iOS MUA, you can never
again use a password of your own choosing (after June 15th, 2017).

These are accurately stated facts, are they not?

> Then don't log in to iCloud, disable the iCloud feature on your iPad. It
> is that simple.

I appreciate your repeated advice to "just give up", and, while it wasn't
unexpected of this newsgroup, I tend to not "just give up" whenever I'm
confronted with an artificial limitation imposed by the Apple mothership.

I do the same on Windows and Linux and Android, where "just give up" is
anathema to me.

It's only on an iOS newsgroup that "just give up" seems to be so common
that people get ridiculed for not "just giving up".

> You need to realize the iOS devices are different than Android, Windows,
> or Linux devices.

> You'd be better off learning what the iOS device you
> have is and then try to configure it the way you want.

Thanks again Joe for your heartfelt advice, where you may note that I've
owned iOS devices since the days of iOS 7.0.0 transition to iOS 7.0.1 when
Linux connectivity was shattered by Apple, which is where I learned the
hard way that, at Apple, the real world is "not supported".

So I've been learning how to interface iOS with the real world for quite
some time now, where you'll note that the Apple Apologists always love to
say it's complex, but it's only complex to get iOS devices to work
seamlessly in the real world because Apple makes it complex.

They even state on their own web site that they don't support the very
devices that many of us use every day, which, of course, makes their lives
easier, but which is why many iOS users are so used to "just giving up"
that they don't even realize that's what they do day in and day out.

In contrast, I prefer to find a solution that works in the real world.

> Starting by
> trying to make your iPad the same and your Android devices without
> understanding what you actually have will just lead to frustrations on
> your part.

I respect your opinion that iOS mobile devices are vastly different than
Android mobile devices, but I respectfully beg to differ in that I posit
that /all/ consumer mobile devices do the same thing.

People use them to make phone calls, to send and receive texts, to do
geolocation, to help them find information, to snap photos, to remind them
of things, etc.

I posit that all mobile devices do essentially the same things, just as I
posit all home-use desktop computers do essentially the same things.

I don't say you're wrong in stating that iOS isn't the same as Android, but
I will respectfully disagree with anyone who says that it's ok to "just
give up" when expecting iOS to interface in the real world, just as I
expect Android, Windows, & Linux to interface in the real world.

Thank you again for being an adult, which is in short supply on these iOS
newsgroups.

Jolly Roger

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 8:30:17 PM3/10/18
to
Just as I thought. *plonk* Bye, Felicia.

joe

unread,
Mar 10, 2018, 9:24:30 PM3/10/18
to
On 3/10/2018 7:21 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
> In article <news:p81tca$e9t$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, joe wrote:
>
>> Mail is one of the services that iCloud provides. If you want to use it,
>> you have to leave it turned on. If you don't want to use it, turn it off.
>
> Thank you Joe for being an adult in how you responded, as adults are in
> short supply on these iOS newsgroups.
>
> I agree with your suggestion that you have to turn on this iCloud button if
> you want to use the iCloud MUA to read iCloud-domain email:
> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off
>
> The original question was one of "Why", but what we learned is that there
> is a Catch-22 of sorts, because if you turn that setting off, then you have
> to use a different MUA, but if you use a different MUA, then you're forced
> to use what Apple euphemistically refers to as an "app-specific password",
> which is, by its very nature, a password not of the users' choosing.
>
>> The iCloud mail service is separate from the backup service. The setting
>> screen allows you to turn of each functionality.
>
> Thank you again, Joe, for clarifying what Jolly Roger also clarified, which
> is that the setting below is not an "iCloud backup" setting despite the
> user of the word "iCloud" in the description of the setting:
> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

You seem really confused. Mail and Backup are both iCloud services, but
they are two different things. "Backup" is not associated with mail; it
is a separate control.


>
>> Then just disable iCloud and don't log in. Use of iCloud is not
>> required. The same applies to the App store.
>
> Thank you Joe for your heartfelt suggestion of "just giving up", which I
> know to be common for many users, but it's not my style to "just give up".
>

Only you would interpret it as giving up. If you don't want your data in
iCloud, thne don't use it. You make the decision not to you iCloud. You
can freely make that decision.

You stated you didn't want your data in the iCloud, so turn it off.

> Of course, if users don't "just give up", as of June 15th, 2017, Apple
> forces them to employ "app-specific" passwords not of their choosing, so,
> there is a penalty enforced by Apple for those users who opt to not "just
> give up".
>
> In short, these are the options if you have an iCloud-domain Apple ID:
> 1. You can turn on that iCloud setting - which enables you to use a
> password of your own choosing, or,
> 2. You can turn off that iCloud setting - but then you can never again use
> a password of your own choosing.
>
> Those are the only two options, as far as anyone here has stated.
> Are they not?

Use gmail or another service with a non-iCloud mail address. That is
another option.

>
>> Then use a different email service. You are not required to use iCloud
>> email.
>
> Unfortunately, you are forced, by Apple, to have an Apple ID, and, hence,
> you have to /create/ an ID somehow, where, for both Android and for iOS,
> the simplest approach is to create a bogus ID such as x...@iCloud.com (which
> is what I did).
>

Apple does not force you to use an ICloud mail ID, you choose the ID. It
probably needs to be a valid email address.

> The problem comes /after/ you've satisfied that forced requirement of
> creating an Apple ID, which is, as stated above...
> a. If you turn on the iCloud setting to use iOS Mail, you can use a
> password of your own choosing, but,
> b. If you turn off that iCloud setting to use a non-iOS MUA, you can never
> again use a password of your own choosing (after June 15th, 2017).
>
> These are accurately stated facts, are they not?
>

Inaccurate, as they are not all your options. You make the decisions
that cause you problems.

>> Then don't log in to iCloud, disable the iCloud feature on your iPad. It
>> is that simple.
>
> I appreciate your repeated advice to "just give up", and, while it wasn't
> unexpected of this newsgroup, I tend to not "just give up" whenever I'm
> confronted with an artificial limitation imposed by the Apple mothership.
>
You are imposing limitations on your self with your own decisions and
actions.
Your recent posts show that you clearly don't understand what an iPad is.

> So I've been learning how to interface iOS with the real world for quite
> some time now, where you'll note that the Apple Apologists always love to
> say it's complex, but it's only complex to get iOS devices to work
> seamlessly in the real world because Apple makes it complex.

No, it is very simple. You avoid the tool that makes it much simpler.
>
> They even state on their own web site that they don't support the very
> devices that many of us use every day,

Where is it written that Apple MUST support any possible device that
anyone might use? Why should they support competing products?

However, without being specific, you statement really has no value. I
use a landline phone daily: I don't expect Apple to support it.


which, of course, makes their lives
> easier, but which is why many iOS users are so used to "just giving up"
> that they don't even realize that's what they do day in and day out.
>
> In contrast, I prefer to find a solution that works in the real world.
>

>> Starting by
>> trying to make your iPad the same and your Android devices without
>> understanding what you actually have will just lead to frustrations on
>> your part.
>
> I respect your opinion that iOS mobile devices are vastly different than
> Android mobile devices, but I respectfully beg to differ in that I posit
> that /all/ consumer mobile devices do the same thing.
>
> People use them to make phone calls, to send and receive texts, to do
> geolocation, to help them find information, to snap photos, to remind them
> of things, etc.
>

You oversimplify for no reason. It is not that they do many of the same
things, it is HOW those features are implemented that matter. In that
respect they are different and that is the difference you need to
comprehend.

> I posit that all mobile devices do essentially the same things, just as I
> posit all home-use desktop computers do essentially the same things.
>

Again, it is HOW they doe those things. Without that distinction there
would no reason for more than one to exist.

> I don't say you're wrong in stating that iOS isn't the same as Android, but
> I will respectfully disagree with anyone who says that it's ok to "just
> give up" when expecting iOS to interface in the real world, just as I
> expect Android, Windows, & Linux to interface in the real world.

I never said for you to give up, You said you wanted to keep your data
out of iCloud, I've given you the easy way to achieve that objective.
There is no reason to make it more difficult.

dorayme

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 1:35:55 AM3/11/18
to
In article <fginj6...@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> Here's just a partial
> list of his most recent nyms, which he changes regularly to avoid
> filtering:
>
> Paul B. Andersen, Adair Bordon, Liam O'Connor, Juan Camilo Blanco,
> Alphonse Arnaud, Danny D., Vinny Perado, Whitney Ryan, Tony Cito, Adam
> H. Kerman, Werner Obermeier, Steven Bornfeld, Winston_Smith, Mitch
> Kaufmann, Paul M. Cook, E. Robinson, Alice J., P. Ng, Tam Nguyen, VPN
> user, Joe Clock, Marob Katon, Chris Rangoon, AArdvarks, Conradt, Gustl
> Hoffmann, Henry Jones, Tatsuki Takahashi, AL, Horace Algier, Karl
> Schultz, Arthur Conan Doyle, Algeria Horan, Horace Algier, Raymond
> Spruance III, Martin Chuzzlewit II, John Harmon, Yanis Bernard, Stijn De
> Jong, Abe Swanson, Misha Vasiliev, Tomos Davies, Chaya Eve, Lionel
> Muller, Roy Tremblay, Frank S, Chaya Eve, Blake Snyder, harry newton,
> Harold Newton, ultred ragnusen, Ragnusen Ultred

My, my, you *have* gone into the matter! Must be pretty time consuming
for the troll to set up so many. Difficult to filter out.

> to identify him requires recognizing his writing
> and conversational styles

Maybe one day, with AI, a filter could be created to pick the style.

--
dorayme

dorayme

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 1:45:53 AM3/11/18
to
In article <p819l1$171l$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
Playing nice? Not being irritable? Where did that get anyone in this
world? <g>

--
dorayme

dorayme

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 1:52:30 AM3/11/18
to
In article <fgiop3...@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2018-03-10, Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:
> > On 10/03/2018 6:48pm, Jolly Roger wrote:
> >
> >>> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day but,
> >>> really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations of
> >>> idolatry!
> >>
> >> Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is
> >> regulars here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and
> >> trolls. You just don't see it for what it is because you haven't been
> >> paying attention as long as the rest of us have.
> >
> > I think my case rests ... I post once, and you already are jumping in
> > to calling me "Liar".
>
> Pointing out trolls from a long-time resident troll isn't "idolizing
> Apple". If you dislike being called out on an obvious lie, your should
> stop lying.

Some people here seem to think that if someone says something untrue,
that is *the* main criterion for saying the person is *lying*. Happens
so often that I began to think quite some time back that it may be a
cultural thing, maybe an American way of using words, not necessarily
bad, just different to some other English speaking practices where a
liar must in some major way be intending to deceive, mostly knowing he
is speaking an untruth.

--
dorayme

dorayme

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 1:54:34 AM3/11/18
to
In article <0001HW.20546C7600...@news.giganews.com>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> If you are looking for information regarding iOS devices, or MacOS computer,
> then ask your question. You should get a sincere enough response from many of
> the regulars here, which in all likelihood is going to answer your question,
> or provide a solution to your problem.

A very optimistic view. I like the sound of it though.

--
dorayme

Wilf

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 5:27:36 AM3/11/18
to
Well, I'll know who not to ask when I have a question about my Apple
products (which I love, by the way) - you clearly are not interested in
helping people with Apple issues otherwise you wouldn't "plonk" someone
who was just pointing out that you weren't being very helpful. Does
this mean you are a plonker?

Wilf

nospam

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 9:23:47 AM3/11/18
to
In article
<do_ray_me-B99D3...@46.sub-75-242-165.myvzw.com>, dorayme
<do_r...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> > to identify him requires recognizing his writing
> > and conversational styles
>
> Maybe one day, with AI, a filter could be created to pick the style.

his style is very obvious.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 9:37:45 AM3/11/18
to
In article <news:p81t04$dnn$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:

> Can you back up a single one of your statements, or, is your entire belief
> system always comprised of exactly zero facts that back up your statements?

As one adult, presumably to another, Savageduck ...

I repeat ...

Q: Can you back up a single accusation that you make that telling the truth
about iOS is a "love" for some other OS, because if you can't ever back up
a single one of your many untoward accusations, all you prove with every
post is that your entire belief system is truly comprised of zero facts.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 10:59:03 AM3/11/18
to
In article <news:p8240o$p0h$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, joe wrote:

> You seem really confused. Mail and Backup are both iCloud services, but
> they are two different things. "Backup" is not associated with mail; it
> is a separate control.

Hi Joe,
I appreciate that you can converse like an adult would, which is a quality
that is hard to find on this iOS newsgroup.

As shown in the OP, I agree that I was initially misled when turning off
all iCloud backups, that the setting for mail is associated with the
settings for backups at
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud >
- iCloud Drive = off
- Mail = off
- Contacts = off
- Reminders = off
- Safari = off
- Home = off
- Notes = off
- News = off
- Keychain = Off
- iCloud Backup = Off
- Find My iPad = On

> Only you would interpret it as giving up.

Hi Joe,
Assuming you meant that as helpful advice, I respectfully disagree that
this is the part that I consider "giving up".

So please listen, as you misinterpreted what I said, which happens on
Usenet because it's a text conversation occurring over time, so, allow me
to clarify.

The giving-up part isn't about the iCloud.

The giving-up part is that you have only two choices if you want to use
your iCloud-domain email on an iOS device!

1. You can use passwords of your choosing, or...
2. You are forced to use passwords not of your choosing.

Said another way:
1. You can use the Apple-mandated MUA, or...
2. You can use a 3rd-party MUA.

Notice, if you don't wish to use the Apple-mandated MUA, then you are
forced to give up on your choice of using passwords of your own choosing.

Those are all facts, are they not?

Given that I only speak facts, can you name any other platform that forces
you to use passwords NOT of your choosing, simply because you decided to
use a MUA that isn't the platform-mandated MUA?

> If you don't want your data in
> iCloud, thne don't use it. You make the decision not to you iCloud. You
> can freely make that decision.

Hi Joe,
Notice that you're missing the key point. Just as it's your decision to rob
a bank, if you do rob that bank, there is an enforced penalty which is that
you go to jail, it's the same here if you choose NOT to use the
Apple-mandated MUA.

If you choose not to use the Apple-mandated MUA, then the penalty is that
Apple will force you to use passwords that are not of your choosing.

Are these not the facts?

You may disagree on the intention, but you can't possibly disagree on the
facts.

Are they the facts or not?

> You stated you didn't want your data in the iCloud, so turn it off.

It's off.


> Use gmail or another service with a non-iCloud mail address. That is
> another option.

Hi Joe,
Do you realize what you just said?
It's hard to explain to you, since you probably don't realize that you just
did what all iOS users do all the time, which is "just give up" without
even /thinking/ that they're "just giving up" every day because they can't
do even the /simplest/ of things without being forced to do it the "Apple
way".

What you just said was, if you want to use a password of your own choosing
on the iCloud-domain, then you can't do it unless you use the Apple MUA, so
if you don't want to use the Apple MUA, then you have to "just give up" on
using the iCloud domain.

I /agree/ with you, by the way.

There is no other option but to "just give up" because, as of June 15th,
2017, Apple mandated that you can't use your own password if you choose not
to use the Apple-mandated MUA.

So, I agree with your assessment that there is no other choice but to "just
give up" on using the iCloud domain for mail if you want to use your own
password.

> Apple does not force you to use an ICloud mail ID, you choose the ID. It
> probably needs to be a valid email address.

Joe,
You missed the point, I think, which is that Apple forces you to choose an
AppleID, which they'll be glad to give you on the iCloud domain, which is
fine for someone who doesn't want to have to /manufacture/ a fake email
address just to please Apple's need to have a unique identifier for your
iOS device.

If you don't understand those words, then we'll get nowhere, since you're
forcing me to repeat patently obvious facts that /everyone/ knows (yes,
even the Apple Apologists must know this stuff!) by your contention above.

> Inaccurate, as they are not all your options. You make the decisions
> that cause you problems.

Hi Joe,

I think it's kind of funny how you think the real world is the cause of all
the problems in iOS!
1. HINT: Using Linux is a real-world situation, and,
2. HINT: Using a 3rd-party MUA is a real-world situation.

hehhehhehheh ... it's amusing to see a window on how you think!

I made the real-world decision, for example, to use Linux, which, as you
seem to be contending, has "caused" my problems with iOS! :)

Similarly, I made the real-world decision to use an iCloud-domain email
address with a well-respected 3rd-party MUA, which, only after June 15th
2017, has "caused" my problems with iOS.

Hehhehheh...

Do you see the humor in your assessment that doing anything that is natural
in the real world, is the "cause" of problems when using iOS in that real
world?

Basically, you're proving that you realize that iOS doesn't work in the
real world.

I hope you understand why I instantly see humor in your statements.

> You are imposing limitations on your self with your own decisions and
> actions.

Again, you must forgive me for smiling that you're sub consciously telling
me that you actually do understand and agree that if you make real-world
decisions, then those real-world decisions "cause" problems in iOS.

Essentially, you're proving to me that you do realize that iOS doesn't
actually work in the real world.

I know that is a fact - but I didn't realize that you (at least sub
consciously) also realized that iOS doesn't actually work whenever people
make real-world decisions such as to use a 3rd-party MUA or to use Linux.

> Your recent posts show that you clearly don't understand what an iPad is.

Hehhhehheh... Oh, I think I do.

And, interestingly, I think you do to, at least subconsciously.


> No, it is very simple.
> You avoid the tool that makes it much simpler.

Here is where you lapse into the child-like world that is that of the other
half-dozen Apple Apologists.

If I /assume/ you're talking about the abomination that is iTunes, then I
have to wonder if...
a, You're lying, or...
a. You're incredibly stupid.

Here me out as I prove that those are the only two choices available.

You claim that there is a solution that works in the real world (which I
assume you mean iTunes) but, at the very same time, you have proven that
you knew all along that iTunes doesn't actually work in the real world.

Respectfully stated, this sentiment is common to /all/ the Apple
Apologists, where I have to wonder that your mentality can only be like
that of James Comey when he says, with a straight face to Congress, that
they tried everything.

A. Comey was either lying, or,
B. Incredibly stupid.

To wit, when you say that iTunes is the "simpler" alternative, and yet, you
know full well that iTunes doesn't work in the real world, you can only be:
A. Lying, or,
B. Incredibly stupid.

I say this will all due respect.
There is no other valid conclusion that can be made.

When you imply iTunes works in the real world, and then you /know/ that
iTunes can't possibly work in the real world, then how am I supposed to
interpret your statement.

a. You're either lying, or,
b. You're incredibly stupid.

There are no other options.

> Where is it written that Apple MUST support any possible device that
> anyone might use? Why should they support competing products?

Joe,
Here's where you instantly revert to /defending/ Apple's choices, when I
never asked you to defend Apple.

This is a classic Apple Apologists' trait, to ascribe emotional intent to
simple facts.

I only stated the simple fact that Apple doesn't support the real world,
and, the simple fact that the result is that iOS doesn't work in the real
world.

That's just a fact.

You are asking me to show where it's written that Apple /must/ support the
real world. I never claimed that Apple must support the real world.

All I said was the simple fact that Apple /doesn't/ support the real world.

All the Apple Apologists live in a fantasy where they /say/ that Apple
supports the real world (just as you just did above with iTunes), and yet,
at the very same time (just like Comey), they /know/ that Apple doesn't
support the real world.

Hence, these Apple Appoligists are either:
a. Lying, or,
b. Incredibly stupid.

Pick one.

> However, without being specific, you statement really has no value. I
> use a landline phone daily: I don't expect Apple to support it.

Again, you apologize for Apple's decisions when I never once said Apple had
to support the real world.

All I said was Apple /doesn't/ support the real world.

That is just a fact.

You seem to /hate/ that fact.
So, you seem to be /apologizing/ for that fact.

I don't ask you to apologize for Apple's decisions in every post.
But I do ask you to stop /lying/ to yourself.

Notice you've already proven that you /understand/ that Apple products
don't work in the real world - so you don't have to constantly lie or
apologize that the Apple products don't work in the real world.

What's odd about you half-dozen Apple Apologists is that you constantly
/lie/ on this newsgroup when you /know/ that you're lying (because I don't
actually think you, Joe, are really incredibly stupid.

Jolly Roger. Um. Yeah. He's incredibly stupid.
As is dorayme, as proven by the fact that neither can add value to /any/
technical conversation.

But you - Joe - you're /not/ incredibly stupid.
So you can only be lying.

That's sad.
You don't even understand yourself.

On the one hand, you admit you know that iOS doesn't work in the real
world, and then you chastise me for not using the solutions that you
already know don't work in the real world, and then, on top of that, you
follow the classic nospam tactic of asserting that you secretly have the
secret answer to all the problems, but you can't tell anyone that answer.

To wit, Joe, what is this "simple" solution you propose that works in the
real world?

> You oversimplify for no reason. It is not that they do many of the same
> things, it is HOW those features are implemented that matter. In that
> respect they are different and that is the difference you need to
> comprehend.

To wit, Joe, I just want the technical solution.

Q: What is this "simple" solution you propose that works in the real world?

> Again, it is HOW they doe those things. Without that distinction there
> would no reason for more than one to exist.

Q: What is this "simple" solution you propose that works in the real world?

> I never said for you to give up, You said you wanted to keep your data
> out of iCloud, I've given you the easy way to achieve that objective.
> There is no reason to make it more difficult.

Joe,
Let's talk facts instead of dorayme and savageduck style pure emotion.

Q: What is this "simple" solution you propose that works in the real world?

--
I'll wait.

Lewis

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 11:12:29 AM3/11/18
to
In message <p82sq6$1p4d$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:
> Well, I'll know who not to ask when I have a question about my Apple
> products (which I love, by the way) - you clearly are not interested in
> helping people with Apple issues otherwise you wouldn't "plonk" someone
> who was just pointing out that you weren't being very helpful. Does
> this mean you are a plonker?

You didn't ask a question. A known idiot troll posted troll shit. You
are defending that troll, which makes you suspiciously troll-ish. there
is low-tolerance for idiot trolls, so clean up fast or fuck off.

Your choice.

Also, replying to someone who has killed your posts is pretty dumb.

--
"I can't see the point in the theatre. All that sex and violence. I get
enough of that at home. Apart from the sex, of course." - Baldrick

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 11:20:17 AM3/11/18
to
In article <news:p82sq6$1p4d$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Wilf wrote:

> Well, I'll know who not to ask when I have a question about my Apple
> products (which I love, by the way) - you clearly are not interested in
> helping people with Apple issues otherwise you wouldn't "plonk" someone
> who was just pointing out that you weren't being very helpful. Does
> this mean you are a plonker?
>
> Wilf

Hi Wilf,

I only look at what people write, where I ascertain you're attempting an
adult conversation with one of the following half-dozen people:
1. Jolly Roger
2. nospam
3. Savageduck
4. Lewis
5. BK@OnRamp
6. dorayme
etc.

On this iOS newsgroup are three types of common respondents, of which this
group will be the most frustrating to deal with.

The only two, in my humble assessment, who /can/ add technical value, are
nospam and savageduck, The rest of those half-dozen miscreants will do we
adults a favor if they simply plonk us, since they have long ago proven
they're incapable of adding technical value to any iOS conversation.

The proof, of course, is not in my words - but in /their/ words, as you're
seeing in this very thread.

I can explain more about them, but if you simply read this post to "Joe"
that I just composed, you'll see a /lot/ of their common traits, which,
basically boil down to the fact that they /hate/ facts that don't fit into
their belief system.

In this case, you're dealing with "Jolly Roger" who turns on anyone who
provides facts that don't fit into his belief system with a surprisingly
sudden and viciously hateful vitriol that you have yet to experience.

The good news is that these half-dozen Apple Apologists are as predictable
as the sun rising in the morning, so you can pretty much ignore all of them
other than nospam and savageduck, who /can/ add value when they feel like
it.

--
No need to respond. I'm just describing my observation of what exists.

nospam

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 11:23:11 AM3/11/18
to
In article <p83g7l$3dh$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> If you choose not to use the Apple-mandated MUA, then the penalty is that
> Apple will force you to use passwords that are not of your choosing.
>
> Are these not the facts?

no.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 11:25:31 AM3/11/18
to
In article <news:slrnpaahqs....@Snow.local>, Lewis wrote:

> You didn't ask a question. A known idiot troll posted troll shit. You
> are defending that troll, which makes you suspiciously troll-ish. there
> is low-tolerance for idiot trolls, so clean up fast or fuck off.
>
> Your choice.
>
> Also, replying to someone who has killed your posts is pretty dumb.

To Wilf,

As I noted in my prior post, it didn't take long for this observation to be
revealed in fact...

"The proof, of course, is not in my words - but in /their/ words."

:)

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 11:39:35 AM3/11/18
to
In article
<news:do_ray_me-B99D3...@46.sub-75-242-165.myvzw.com>, dorayme
wrote:

> Maybe one day, with AI, a filter could be created to pick the style.

Hi dorayme,

I /love/ when Jolly Roger makes a fool of himself posting that list, just
as Savageduck consistently makes a fool of himself by his attempts to "out"
me.

What Jolly Roger does, which is so trivial to do, is the same as what
Savageduck does when he 'claims' to out me by telling the world I live in
the Silicon Valley - as if he "figured it out", genius that he is, when
I've said it a billion times in plain sight.

I never hide who I am, so, even an bona-fide moron such as Jolly Roger
proves he is with every post, can click on the links I provide which link
/directly/ to my other posts.

What I find more hiliarious is not that you, dorayme, commend Jolly Roger
for being able to click on links that I provide, but that Jolly Roger
actually thinks he is a genius for "figuring out" that I provide links to
my own posts.

Besides Jolly Roger thinking he's a genius being kind of humorous, you have
to admit, it's even more humorous that his list contains inaccuracies, so,
even when I hand feed him the facts, he /still/ gets them wrong.

I find all this even more humorous, if it wasn't so sad that you Apple
Apologists seem to think you're geniuses when you can figure out the
obvious but only when it's hand fed to you (and even then, you get the
facts wrong).

:)

nospam

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 11:43:35 AM3/11/18
to
In article <p83ijm$71v$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> I never hide who I am,

yes you do.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 11:47:57 AM3/11/18
to
In article <news:110320180923461194%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> Maybe one day, with AI, a filter could be created to pick the style.
>
> his style is very obvious.

Of all the Apple Apologists, I never say you're stupid, which dorayme
clearly is based on what she just wrote.

She doesn't have a clue that Jolly Roger's "list" was hand fed to him by me
providing direct links to my own posts, where, even then, he gets that list
wrong.

Moreso, at least you, of all the Apple Apologists, don't claim to be a
genius, like Savageduck constantly does when he attempts to 'out' me by
telling the world that I live in the Silicon Valley, as if it wasn't
mentioned by me a million times.

That's what I find /different/ about you, than, say the moron Jolly Roger
or the decidedly not-even-close-to-astute dorayme.

To your credit, you realize that I have the /same/ S3, the same iPads, the
same facts, the same Linux, the same location, the same style, etc, such
that even you have to understand why I smile when I see dorayme exclaim
with wonderment that Jolly Roger can "figure out" my posts (genius that he
must be in order to do that).

On the other hand, to let you know, I don't often let you know this, but
you sure do accuse a lot of others of being me, as I read /all/ the threads
in a few newsgroups that you're in, and you accuse /plenty/ of people of
being me who are not me.

But, just as often, you're right ... where I make no attempt whatsoever to
hide who I am ... despite that fact still being difficult to figure out by
those two morons, dorayme and Jolly Roger.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 11:56:33 AM3/11/18
to
In article <news:110320181143344529%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> I never hide who I am,
>
> yes you do.

Why then do I have the same Samsung Galaxy S3 or Linux or Windows desktops
that is pictured hundreds of times in my posts, or the same location, or
the same grammar and diction, or even that I use the words "Apple
Appologists" to describe the same half-dozen people, namely:
a. nospam
b. Jolly Roger
c. Lewis
d. BK@OnRamp
e. Savageduck
f. etc.

Every once in a while, particularly when I change machines, my
privacy-related header-anonymizing scripts screw up, but that hasn't
happened in a long while (years) because I fix that whenever it happens.

What I find funny is that, for example, I read every post on a bunch of
newsgroups that are not iOS related that you are on, where you accuse a
bunch of people of being me, where I just smile.

Sometimes, those people defend themselves, but more often than not it's a
cryptic statement by you saying "he does that all the time", where they
don't respond by defending themselves, so it's likely I who realizes you're
just guessing, as the person whom you're responding to probably doesn't
have the background to understand where you are coming from.

So, as always, you're different than Jolly Roger and Savageduck and dorayme
and the other Apple Apologists. You just guess, where you're actually right
a good portion of the time, but they are not the geniuses they /think/ they
are, so, they're only right when hand fed facts, and even then, they still
get the facts wrong.

I'd probably find that more humorous if I was assured they didn't vote.

nospam

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 12:01:52 PM3/11/18
to
In article <p83jjf$8dn$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> >> I never hide who I am,
> >
> > yes you do.
>
> Why then do I have the same Samsung Galaxy S3 or Linux or Windows desktops

whoooooooosh

joe

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 12:05:20 PM3/11/18
to
On 03/11/2018 09:59 AM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
> In article <news:p8240o$p0h$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, joe wrote:
>
>> You seem really confused. Mail and Backup are both iCloud services, but
>> they are two different things. "Backup" is not associated with mail; it
>> is a separate control.
>
> Hi Joe,
> I appreciate that you can converse like an adult would, which is a quality
> that is hard to find on this iOS newsgroup.
>
> As shown in the OP, I agree that I was initially misled when turning off
> all iCloud backups, that the setting for mail is associated with the
> settings for backups at
> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud >
> - iCloud Drive = off
> - Mail = off
> - Contacts = off
> - Reminders = off
> - Safari = off
> - Home = off
> - Notes = off
> - News = off
> - Keychain = Off
> - iCloud Backup = Off
> - Find My iPad = On
>

You still don't get it, only one of those settings is for backups. The
others are for sharing data between devices.

>> Only you would interpret it as giving up.
>
> Hi Joe,
> Assuming you meant that as helpful advice, I respectfully disagree that
> this is the part that I consider "giving up".

I responded to your comment about giving up. You provided the context
(which was turning off iCloud), and now change it (to mail). You
deliberately delete the context to misrepresent what I am saying.

>
> So please listen, as you misinterpreted what I said, which happens on
> Usenet because it's a text conversation occurring over time, so, allow me
> to clarify.
>
> The giving-up part isn't about the iCloud.
>
> The giving-up part is that you have only two choices if you want to use
> your iCloud-domain email on an iOS device!
>
> 1. You can use passwords of your choosing, or...
> 2. You are forced to use passwords not of your choosing.
>
> Said another way:
> 1. You can use the Apple-mandated MUA, or...
> 2. You can use a 3rd-party MUA.
>
> Notice, if you don't wish to use the Apple-mandated MUA, then you are
> forced to give up on your choice of using passwords of your own choosing.
>
> Those are all facts, are they not?

You seem to completely ignore the fact that this is a SINGLE USE
PASSWORD. You don't need to remember it. You only need to enter it once.
It does not change the password on your email, it only allows a new
client access to iCloud information.

You generate a lot of whining over a password you use once.

>
> Given that I only speak facts, can you name any other platform that forces
> you to use passwords NOT of your choosing, simply because you decided to
> use a MUA that isn't the platform-mandated MUA?
>
>> If you don't want your data in
>> iCloud, thne don't use it. You make the decision not to you iCloud. You
>> can freely make that decision.
>
> Hi Joe,
> Notice that you're missing the key point. Just as it's your decision to rob
> a bank, if you do rob that bank, there is an enforced penalty which is that
> you go to jail, it's the same here if you choose NOT to use the
> Apple-mandated MUA.
>
> If you choose not to use the Apple-mandated MUA, then the penalty is that
> Apple will force you to use passwords that are not of your choosing.
>
> Are these not the facts?
>
> You may disagree on the intention, but you can't possibly disagree on the
> facts.
>
> Are they the facts or not?

Only some of the facts. By ignoring some of the details you are
deliberately manipulating/misrepresenting the true situation.

>
>> You stated you didn't want your data in the iCloud, so turn it off.
>
> It's off.
>
>
>> Use gmail or another service with a non-iCloud mail address. That is
>> another option.
>
> Hi Joe,
> Do you realize what you just said?
> It's hard to explain to you, since you probably don't realize that you just
> did what all iOS users do all the time, which is "just give up" without
> even /thinking/ that they're "just giving up" every day because they can't
> do even the /simplest/ of things without being forced to do it the "Apple
> way".
>
> What you just said was, if you want to use a password of your own choosing
> on the iCloud-domain, then you can't do it unless you use the
> - iCloud Backup = Off
> - Find My iPad = On
> Apple MUA, so
> if you don't want to use the Apple MUA, then you have to "just give up" on
> using the iCloud domain.

No, that is not the case. You just have to use a specific one-time
password to allow your other MUA to access iCloud.

>
> I /agree/ with you, by the way.
>
> There is no other option but to "just give up" because, as of June 15th,
> 2017, Apple mandated that you can't use your own password if you choose not
> to use the Apple-mandated MUA.
>
> So, I agree with your assessment that there is no other choice but to "just
> give up" on using the iCloud domain for mail if you want to use your own
> password.
>
>> Apple does not force you to use an ICloud mail ID, you choose the ID. It
>> probably needs to be a valid email address.
>
> Joe,
> You missed the point, I think, which is that Apple forces you to choose an
> AppleID, which they'll be glad to give you on the iCloud domain, which is
> fine for someone who doesn't want to have to /manufacture/ a fake email
> address just to please Apple's need to have a unique identifier for your
> iOS device.

Yes, an Apple ID is needed, but it does not have the be on the @iCloud
domain.

>
> If you don't understand those words, then we'll get nowhere, since you're
> forcing me to repeat patently obvious facts that /everyone/ knows (yes,
> even the Apple Apologists must know this stuff!) by your contention above.
>
>> Inaccurate, as they are not all your options. You make the decisions
>> that cause you problems.
>

Once again, you take away the context of my comment and change it to
something different which means you are deliberately misrepresenting
what I meant.
The solution is iTunes, you know it, and always have. For many millions
in the real world it works on Mac and Windows machines. It is obvious
you have a Windows machine that you could use.

That you choose not to use iTunes is your decision. Any difficulty that
arises is only caused by you.

That you consider Linux as the "real world" is your problem. You bought
the iPad knowing Apple does not support Linux. You made the decision to
buy the iPad, it was not forced upon you. You made that decision knowing
Linux was not supported. Any resulting issues that result come from the
decision you made.

You refuse to acknowledge that things are implemented differently on iOS
device. Instead of accepting that, you choose to look for ways other
than iTunes to put content from your computer onto the iPad. This makes
more work for you. If that's the way you like it, that's your choice.

You chose to use an @iCloud account for your Apple ID. Other options
exist. After making that choice, you then refuse to accept the
limitations. Even though those limitations are the need to use a
different password one time.








Lloyd

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 12:22:52 PM3/11/18
to
Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> Wrote in message:
> In article <news:p8240o$p0h$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, joe wrote:
>
>> You seem really confused. Mail and Backup are both iCloud services, but
>> they are two different things. "Backup" is not associated with mail; it
>> is a separate control.
>
> Hi Joe,
> I appreciate that you can converse like an adult would, which is a quality
> that is hard to find on this iOS newsgroup.
>
> As shown in the OP, I agree that I was initially misled when turning off
> all iCloud backups, that the setting for mail is associated with the
> settings for backups at
> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud >
> - iCloud Drive = off
> - Mail = off
> - Contacts = off
> - Reminders = off
> - Safari = off
> - Home = off
> - Notes = off
> - News = off
> - Keychain = Off
> - iCloud Backup = Off
> - Find My iPad = On
>
Note that you weren't misled at all, just ignorant. In your
little list there, it clearly shows that Mail and iCloud backup
are completely seperate, only sharing the Apple ID you
created.

>> Only you would interpret it as giving up.
>
> Hi Joe,
> Assuming you meant that as helpful advice, I respectfully disagree that
> this is the part that I consider "giving up".
>
> So please listen, as you misinterpreted what I said, which happens on
> Usenet because it's a text conversation occurring over time, so, allow me
> to clarify.
>
> The giving-up part isn't about the iCloud.
>
> The giving-up part is that you have only two choices if you want to use
> your iCloud-domain email on an iOS device!
>
> 1. You can use passwords of your choosing, or...
> 2. You are forced to use passwords not of your choosing.
>
> Said another way:
> 1. You can use the Apple-mandated MUA, or...
> 2. You can use a 3rd-party MUA.
>
> Notice, if you don't wish to use the Apple-mandated MUA, then you are
> forced to give up on your choice of using passwords of your own choosing.
>
> Those are all facts, are they not?
>
Correct. But it is Apple's mail server that is provided free for
your use as long as you follow their rules for use. Just like
every other mail server in the world. That their rules might not
be to your liking just means you shouldn't use them or use them
within their guidelines. Simple choice.

> Given that I only speak facts, can you name any other platform that forces
> you to use passwords NOT of your choosing, simply because you decided to
> use a MUA that isn't the platform-mandated MUA?
>
If exactly zero others have the same requirements, so what? It is
a free service provided by Apple that you are free to use or not.
Note that it is even available to those that don't have a single
Apple product.

>> If you don't want your data in
>> iCloud, thne don't use it. You make the decision not to you iCloud. You
>> can freely make that decision.
>
> Hi Joe,
> Notice that you're missing the key point. Just as it's your decision to rob
> a bank, if you do rob that bank, there is an enforced penalty which is that
> you go to jail, it's the same here if you choose NOT to use the
> Apple-mandated MUA.
>
Just your usual utter horseshit! The analogy doesn't hold water
at all.

> If you choose not to use the Apple-mandated MUA, then the penalty is that
> Apple will force you to use passwords that are not of your choosing.
>
> Are these not the facts?
>
> You may disagree on the intention, but you can't possibly disagree on the
> facts.
>
> Are they the facts or not?
>
>> You stated you didn't want your data in the iCloud, so turn it off.
>
> It's off.
>
>
>> Use gmail or another service with a non-iCloud mail address. That is
>> another option.
>
> Hi Joe,
> Do you realize what you just said?
> It's hard to explain to you, since you probably don't realize that you just
> did what all iOS users do all the time, which is "just give up" without
> even /thinking/ that they're "just giving up" every day because they can't
> do even the /simplest/ of things without being forced to do it the "Apple
> way".
>
Yep, Apple is telling you that in order to use their freely
provided mail service, you will do it according to their
rules.

> What you just said was, if you want to use a password of your own choosing
> on the iCloud-domain, then you can't do it unless you use the Apple MUA, so
> if you don't want to use the Apple MUA, then you have to "just give up" on
> using the iCloud domain.
>
Yep, them's the rules. Follow them and use it, or don't and just
use something else.

> I /agree/ with you, by the way.
>
> There is no other option but to "just give up" because, as of June 15th,
> 2017, Apple mandated that you can't use your own password if you choose not
> to use the Apple-mandated MUA.
>
> So, I agree with your assessment that there is no other choice but to "just
> give up" on using the iCloud domain for mail if you want to use your own
> password.
>
>> Apple does not force you to use an ICloud mail ID, you choose the ID. It
>> probably needs to be a valid email address.
>
> Joe,
> You missed the point, I think, which is that Apple forces you to choose an
> AppleID, which they'll be glad to give you on the iCloud domain, which is
> fine for someone who doesn't want to have to /manufacture/ a fake email
> address just to please Apple's need to have a unique identifier for your
> iOS device.
>
> If you don't understand those words, then we'll get nowhere, since you're
> forcing me to repeat patently obvious facts that /everyone/ knows (yes,
> even the Apple Apologists must know this stuff!) by your contention above.
>
>> Inaccurate, as they are not all your options. You make the decisions
>> that cause you problems.

Correct, ALL of his 'issues' over the years are of his own making
in order to provide him the fodder for his trolling.

>
> Hi Joe,
>
> I think it's kind of funny how you think the real world is the cause of all
> the problems in iOS!
> 1. HINT: Using Linux is a real-world situation, and,

Only if by 'real world' you mean the roughly 98% of the
desktop/laptop that doesn't use Windows or MacOS.

> 2. HINT: Using a 3rd-party MUA is a real-world situation.
>
Yep, but the rules to use them with iCloud are not onerous no
matter how much you write about it.

> hehhehhehheh ... it's amusing to see a window on how you think!
>
> I made the real-world decision, for example, to use Linux, which, as you
> seem to be contending, has "caused" my problems with iOS! :)
>
> Similarly, I made the real-world decision to use an iCloud-domain email
> address with a well-respected 3rd-party MUA, which, only after June 15th
> 2017, has "caused" my problems with iOS.
>
Except that it isn't a 'problem' at all. Just a rule that you
don't like.

> Hehhehheh...
>
> Do you see the humor in your assessment that doing anything that is natural
> in the real world, is the "cause" of problems when using iOS in that real
> world?
>
> Basically, you're proving that you realize that iOS doesn't work in the
> real world.
>
> I hope you understand why I instantly see humor in your statements.
>
>> You are imposing limitations on your self with your own decisions and
>> actions.
>
> Again, you must forgive me for smiling that you're sub consciously telling
> me that you actually do understand and agree that if you make real-world
> decisions, then those real-world decisions "cause" problems in iOS.
>
> Essentially, you're proving to me that you do realize that iOS doesn't
> actually work in the real world.
>
All that 'real world' crap, is just that, crap. The 'real world'
is about the roughly 98% of the desktop/laptop users that don't
use Linux.

> I know that is a fact - but I didn't realize that you (at least sub
> consciously) also realized that iOS doesn't actually work whenever people
> make real-world decisions such as to use a 3rd-party MUA or to use Linux.
>
It works fine with 3rd party MUAs.

>> Your recent posts show that you clearly don't understand what an iPad is.
>
> Hehhhehheh... Oh, I think I do.
>
> And, interestingly, I think you do to, at least subconsciously.
>
>
>> No, it is very simple.
>> You avoid the tool that makes it much simpler.
>
> Here is where you lapse into the child-like world that is that of the other
> half-dozen Apple Apologists.
>
> If I /assume/ you're talking about the abomination that is iTunes, then I
> have to wonder if...
> a, You're lying, or...
> a. You're incredibly stupid.
>
> Here me out as I prove that those are the only two choices available.
>
> You claim that there is a solution that works in the real world (which I
> assume you mean iTunes) but, at the very same time, you have proven that
> you knew all along that iTunes doesn't actually work in the real world.
>
Yeah, iTunes only works in the real world of the roughly 98% of
the desktop/laptop users.
>
<< political crap deleted >>

> To wit, when you say that iTunes is the "simpler" alternative, and yet, you
> know full well that iTunes doesn't work in the real world, you can only be:
> A. Lying, or,
> B. Incredibly stupid.
>
> I say this will all due respect.
> There is no other valid conclusion that can be made.
>
Sure there is. The other conclusion could be that Apple just
doesn't care if a single one of the roughly 2% of the
desktop/laptop market using Linux has any value to
Apple.
<< gratuitist crap delete >>

>> Where is it written that Apple MUST support any possible device that
>> anyone might use? Why should they support competing products?
>
> Joe,
> Here's where you instantly revert to /defending/ Apple's choices, when I
> never asked you to defend Apple.
>
> This is a classic Apple Apologists' trait, to ascribe emotional intent to
> simple facts.
>
> I only stated the simple fact that Apple doesn't support the real world,
> and, the simple fact that the result is that iOS doesn't work in the real
> world.
>
> That's just a fact.
>
Nope, that's just some more of your usual twisting bullshit.

> You are asking me to show where it's written that Apple /must/ support the
> real world. I never claimed that Apple must support the real world.
>
> All I said was the simple fact that Apple /doesn't/ support the real world.
>
If that were only true, you wouldn't have wasted so much time
saying otherwise.

<< lots of bullshit deleted >>

--
Lloyd

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 2:36:38 PM3/11/18
to
In article <news:p83k3t$vad$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, joe wrote:

> You still don't get it, only one of those settings is for backups. The
> others are for sharing data between devices.

Hi Joe,

As one adult to, presumably another, I have to explain, again, that I
agreed with you, such that your statement above makes no sense, given I
clearly said the following sentence verbatim:

I repeat.
"As shown in the OP, I agree that I was initially misled when turning
off all iCloud backups, that the setting for mail is associated with
the settings for backups"

Please let me know what part of that very clear sentence is the part that
you keep misunderstanding.

> I responded to your comment about giving up. You provided the context
> (which was turning off iCloud), and now change it (to mail). You
> deliberately delete the context to misrepresent what I am saying.

Hi Joe,
As you know, people interpret what others say on Usenet, such that it's
common for misunderstandings to arise, so I did clearly and patiently
explain to you exactly what part of "just giving up" I was talking about.

If you /continue/ to misunderstand such clear statements, then me patiently
explaining to you over and over and over and over and over and over again,
that these are facts, isn't going to clear up your misunderstanding.

1. You can use the Apple-mandated MUA for iCloud-domain email, or,
2. You can use a 3rd-party MUA.
But...
Only if you use the Apple-mandated MUA can you use a password of your
choosing because in order to use the unwanted single-use app-specific
password, you have to /also/ use the unwanted two-factor authorization.
http://i.cubeupload.com/9m8YA2.jpg

These are facts.
That you continue to misunderstand these facts doesn't change that they're
facts.

If you /still/ misunderstand these rather simple facts, please let me know
what part of the next simple statement of fact that still confuses you.

FACT: The only MUA on iOS that doesn't have these unwanted restrictions is
the Apple-mandated MUA. (fancy that)

> You seem to completely ignore the fact that this is a SINGLE USE
> PASSWORD. You don't need to remember it. You only need to enter it once.
> It does not change the password on your email, it only allows a new
> client access to iCloud information.
>
> You generate a lot of whining over a password you use once.

Hi Joe,
I presume you are an adult.
That means that you can /remember/ the simplest of needs.

Right?

Let's ask you a very simple question, given that you must know that I use
no PIN on my iPad nor phones, and that I am not worried about the
government brute-force cracking into my iPad because, as I've said many
times, the weakest links on all consumer mobile devices is the same (and
it's not the risk of a brute-force frontal attack).

Hence, you should be able to /remember/ that I have no desire, nor
intention, to set up two-factor authorization for my Apple ID.

Let me remind you of that fact, by posting this picture again.
http://i.cubeupload.com/9m8YA2.jpg

Does that fact stick in your adult brain?
If yes, then we can move on to answering your concerns.

Is this a fact or not:

FACT: In order to use a 3rd party MUA on iOS with an iCloud-domain email
address, you must use a single-use app-specific password - where - in order
to use that single-use app-specific password, you must /also/ set up
two-factor authorization of your Apple ID.

I realize that sentence actually contains /two/ concurrent facts, so I hope
that you being an adult means you can inherently comprehend that there are
/multiple/ issues involved, all of which are placed by Apple herself, all
of which are required, and, neither of which are there for the
Apple-mandated MUA.

Is any fact above not true?

If so, what part of that sentence, which I admit, contains /two/ facts, do
you still continue to not comprehend?

> Only some of the facts. By ignoring some of the details you are
> deliberately manipulating/misrepresenting the true situation.

Hi Joe,

You may need to agree with me that I should find that statement humorous.

You just ignored key details when you suggested that the app-specific
password was one-time only, and then you accuse me of ignoring the details
when I don't mention in every sentence that I don't ever want to set up
two-factor authorization for my Apple ID.

Remember, while the app-specific password is one-time only, you ignored the
detail that we discussed ad-infinitum already in this thread that it also
requires setting up two-factor authorization on my iPad.

How many times will you /ignore the details/ that I present again below?
http://i.cubeupload.com/9m8YA2.jpg

> No, that is not the case. You just have to use a specific one-time
> password to allow your other MUA to access iCloud.

Hi Joe,
Is your selective memory loss always ignoring key details such as the fact
that you must know by now that the /last/ thing I would ever want is to
enable two-factor authorization just to use my iPad.

Please let me know what part of this picture you don't understand:
http://i.cubeupload.com/9m8YA2.jpg

> Yes, an Apple ID is needed, but it does not have the be on the @iCloud
> domain.

Again you ignore key details in presenting that fact without also
understanding that I already explained to you, in patient detail, that you
have to create /some/ kind of ID because the iPad won't let you do without
it.

So you either let Apple create it, or you do the work yourself to create a
bogus email ID, where in the case of both iOS and Android, I just let it
create the ID for me.

You Apple Apologists can't handle the /simplest/ of solutions, where I
agree, Apple made this simple solution not work with a 3rd-party MUA as of
June 15th, 2017.

> The solution is iTunes, you know it, and always have.

This is where you leave me to wonder if you're lying, or incredibly stupid.
You /know/ iTunes doesn't stand a chance of working in the real world.

And yet, you say it's the "solution".

Are you really an adult?

If you are, then you leave me only two possibilities:
a. You're incredibly stupid, or,
b. You're just playing silly games like the rest of the Apple Apologists do

> For many millions
> in the real world it works on Mac and Windows machines. It is obvious
> you have a Windows machine that you could use.

How does iTunes work on Linux, which is the same machine that I have which
is also Windows?

Tell me.
As an adult would.

Or, can you simply admit that iOS doesn't work in the real world?

HINT: How you handle that fact is a key determinant of whether you are an
adult, or an Apple Apologist. Let's see how you handle that fact.

> That you choose not to use iTunes is your decision. Any difficulty that
> arises is only caused by you.

Why must you Apple Apologists always blame people in the real world for
Apple products clearly not working in the real world?

Your ignorance of the real world existing does not make it not the real
world.

> That you consider Linux as the "real world" is your problem.

Classic Apple Apologist, where you apologize profusely for Apple products
not working in the real world.

> You bought the iPad knowing Apple does not support Linux.

Ah, but I can make the iPad work with Linux, and, in fact, it works
/better/ with Linux natively than it does with Windows.

Just as Linux works better with Windows than Windows works with Linux, your
complete ignorance of the real world does not make the real world not
exist.

> You made the decision to
> buy the iPad, it was not forced upon you. You made that decision knowing
> Linux was not supported. Any resulting issues that result come from the
> decision you made.

Do you see how you blame the user for Apple products not working in the
real world?

> You refuse to acknowledge that things are implemented differently on iOS
> device.

Hi Joe,
You have to smile along with me when I read that comment above, where I can
only conclude, and prove, either you are:
a. Incredibly stupid, or, you're
b. A liar.

To prove that you can only be one or both of the above, you have to realize
that I never once said that iOS isn't implemented /differently/. In fact,
even the morons dorayme and Jolly Roger would have to agree that I've
always said iOS is implemented differently.

What amazes me is that only someone incredibly stupid or just pulling my
leg can even come close to saying that I've never acknowledged that iOS
works differently.

Even nospam, who never tells the truth, wouldn't say something as dumb as
what you just said.

So, please forgive me for smiling when I see someone like you write that Id
don't acknowledge that Apple does things differently.

I would smile more comfortably if I was assured that you don't vote.

> Instead of accepting that, you choose to look for ways other
> than iTunes to put content from your computer onto the iPad. This makes
> more work for you. If that's the way you like it, that's your choice.

This is the /first/ evidence in your post that you actually do have adult
comprehensive capabilities!

Kudos to you for recognizing the fact that I almost always get the iPad to
do exactly what I want it to do.

As you noted, it simply takes intelligence and effort to make iOS do the
simplest of things in the real world.

Like this.
https://i.cubeupload.com/bDuiA6.jpg

> You chose to use an @iCloud account for your Apple ID.

I find it humorous that you chastise me for taking the simple answer when
Apple forced me to create an Apple ID.

> Other options exist. After making that choice, you then refuse to accept the
> limitations.

What you miss in that statement above isn't that I refuse to accept the
limitations of the Apple ID. I didn't /know/ of the limitations, which, as
you must know by now, were unilaterally implemented by Apple on June 15th
2017.

Maybe you're omnipotent - but I didn't even /know/ about these Apple-only
limitations until they bit.

> Even though those limitations are the need to use a
> different password one time.

Pardon me if I smile that you just accused me of only presenting some of
the facts, when I see that you constantly only present some of the facts,
where /all/ of the facts are pertinent.

In doing so, you seem to constantly misunderstand or forget this fact:
http://i.cubeupload.com/9m8YA2.jpg

nospam

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 3:31:25 PM3/11/18
to
In article <p83svk$mn3$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> Remember, while the app-specific password is one-time only, you ignored the
> detail that we discussed ad-infinitum already in this thread that it also
> requires setting up two-factor authorization on my iPad.

don't set up two-factor and you won't need app-specific passwords.

*your* choice.


> > Yes, an Apple ID is needed, but it does not have the be on the @iCloud
> > domain.
>
> Again you ignore key details in presenting that fact without also
> understanding that I already explained to you, in patient detail, that you
> have to create /some/ kind of ID because the iPad won't let you do without
> it.

yes it will, although it's very limiting if you don't.

> So you either let Apple create it, or you do the work yourself to create a
> bogus email ID, where in the case of both iOS and Android, I just let it
> create the ID for me.

in other words, your problems are entirely your own fault.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 3:39:33 PM3/11/18
to
In article <news:fgl3eq...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> Note that you weren't misled at all, just ignorant.

Hi Lloyd,
I'll accept that I was ignorant where you'll have to then also accept that
I'm no longer a babe in the woods because I now know that the following is
true (which I didn't know when I had asked this question).

FACT: The only MUA on iOS for an iCloud-domain email address that doesn't
require the user to use not only an undesired single-use app-specific
password but also unwanted two-factor authorization, is the Apple-mandated
MUA.

Lloyd...
Did I cure my initial ignorance on that subject to your liking yet?
:)

> In your
> little list there, it clearly shows that Mail and iCloud backup
> are completely seperate, only sharing the Apple ID you
> created.

I agree I was ignorant of the true meaning of that setting.

Now that I'm no longer ignorant of the ramifications, I found out the
situation is even worse than I had originally imagined.

FACT: If, for your iCloud-domain email address, you turn off the
Apple-mandated MUA, then there is no 3rd party MUA that you can use (after
June 15, 2017) that Apple will let access your mail unless you ALSO set up
not only an undesired app-specific password but also an unwanted two-factor
authorization for your Apple ID.

Lloyd...
Did I cure my initial ignorance on that subject to your liking yet?
:)

>> Those are all facts, are they not?
>>
> Correct.

Wow. Just wow. This is a big deal!
Finally, someone on this iOS newsgroup can admit a fact is a fact!

Normally, admitting facts wouldn't be a big deal, but it's a huge
accomplishment to get anyone on this iOS newsgroup to admit a fact is a
fact.

So I must commend you for being able to admit a fact when it's fact.

Wow. Just wow. There's hope for adults on this newsgroup yet!

> But it is Apple's mail server that is provided free for
> your use as long as you follow their rules for use.

Thank you for providing arguments that adults would provide as you must
know it's almost impossible to /find/ an adult on this newsgroup.

I completely agree with your statement above.
Completely.

Apple provides the server. Apple makes the rules. (Note: you should see
what I think about the rules that Gmail applies to their server - which is
listed in detail on other newsgroups.)

> Just like every other mail server in the world.

Yup. I would never disagree with a fact presented as an adult would present
it.

In fact, since I'm on VPN 100% of the time, you should see how I have to
deal with Google servers, where it took me a long time to trick them into
letting me log in from China five minutes ago, and from Denmark just now,
and from Japan five minutes from now - all without ever providing Google
with a valid backup email address or personal phone number.

> That their rules might not
> be to your liking just means you shouldn't use them or use them
> within their guidelines. Simple choice.

Nope. Here's where we differ.

As you can imagine, if you don't already know it, Google absolutely hates
when you log in from a different country ten times a day. They hate it even
more when you don't have a valid email address backup or phone number
backup, right?

And yet, if you're intelligent about it, you /can/ circumvent all those
arbitrary hurdles - and simply so - if you're clever about it.

Same with iOS.

It's a fact that iOS, out of the box, and by design, doesn't work in the
real world (heck, we've proven time and again that even Apple admits they
don't test nor do they support iOS in the real world).

So it's a given that Apple iOS products will never work well in the real
world.

But that doesn't mean we have to 'just give up'.
Just giving up is what iOS users do all the time.

For example, if an iOS user wants to interface with Linux in the real
world, or to interface with Windows without installing the iTunes
abomination, most would "just give up" - but not me.

I simply find a clever way to make iOS work in the real world.
That's how I'm different from most people you converse with on this iOS
newsgroup.

You had noticed that I'm different than most people on this iOS newsgroup,
hadn't you? :)

That's the difference.
For people like Joe, they "just give up".
For people like nospam and Jolly Roger, they live wholly ensconced inside
their imaginary world.

But I live in the real world, and I don't "just give up".

>> Given that I only speak facts, can you name any other platform that forces
>> you to use passwords NOT of your choosing, simply because you decided to
>> use a MUA that isn't the platform-mandated MUA?
>>
> If exactly zero others have the same requirements, so what?

What I love about what you're doing is that you're actually acting like an
adult would act - using arguments that an actual adult would use - which
wouldn't be so shocking on any other newsgroup - but which is a refreshing
slap in the face for this iOS newsgroup.

So, first off, kudos to you for coming up with what appears to be an adult
point of view.

Initially this thread started because my goal was to excise the iCloud
backup hell from the new iPad, mainly because it's just dumb to put any
personal data on a cloud that, by default, is too small to handle
effectively all the data that it should if it were to be considered an
effective backup solution.

Now ... given that was clearly the initial goal ... how many others do you
think have the same requirements?

Millions right?
Hell ... c'mon... it has to be tens of millions to hundreds of millions of
people have that same goal, which is to store on the free portion of the
cloud an effective amount of personal data that they would want to be
backed up.

Given hundreds of millions of people have the same goal, and, unfortunatly,
given that the goal isn't possible to achieve, I'd say hundreds of millions
of people have the same initial goal that I had going into this thread.

Now - I know full well that you were talking about the secondary issues
that aroes when I was trying to work around the problem I just listed
above, which is that the 5GB iCloud default is so low as to be ineffective
at the desired tasks that hundreds of millions of people would want.

So, my secondary goal, given the primary goal is impossible to accomplish,
was to disable the iCloud, and, yet, once I did that, I also disabled the
Apple Mail on the iCloud, and once I turned that back on, I realized that
to use any other MUA but the Apple MUA (as of June 15th 2017) requires an
unwanted app-specific password plus an undesired two-factor authorization.

Hence, the only real solution is to disable both the iCloud backup and any
semblance of an iCloud email account, both of which I've done - since they
are the only viable solutions available under the circumstances.

> It is
> a free service provided by Apple that you are free to use or not.
> Note that it is even available to those that don't have a single
> Apple product.

I don't disagree with any arguments that are made in good faith by a
sentient adult, so I agree fully with you.

> Just your usual utter horseshit! The analogy doesn't hold water
> at all.

The analogy was that your choices have inevitable penalties that are
imposed by the government just as your choice to use a 3rd-party MUA has an
inevitable penalty that is imposed by Big Brother of requiring not only an
unwanted app-specific password but also undesired two-factor authorization.

You don't have to like the analogy - where you're welcome to come up with
your own analogy - but the point was in my response to "Joe" that his
repeated suggestion to "just give up" has implications too.

I do realize very much so that iOS users habitually "just give up" all the
time, day in and day out, every day of every week of every month of every
year, so, to an iOS user, "just giving up" is normal.

But some people like to use their own passwords, for example, in their
choice of MUAs.

> Yep, Apple is telling you that in order to use their freely
> provided mail service, you will do it according to their
> rules.

Again, I must publicly commend you for agreeing with a statement of fact,
where that agreement with fact is so rare on this iOS newsgroup as to be
worth commending.

But it's just such a shock to see anyone posting on this iOS newsgroup who
can handle actual facts - that I have to be very sure to commend you for
doing something that is normal on other newsgroups - but it's just not
normal on the iOS newsgroup for people to act like adults normally do.

So thank you for understanding that Apple has imposed the previously stated
restrictions on any user who wishes to use their mail service.

> Yep, them's the rules. Follow them and use it, or don't and just
> use something else.

Thank you for being a rare person in this iOS newsgroup to indicate, in
adult words even, that you actually understand basic facts.

It's shocking - I know - that I have to point this out - but when you've
been on iOS newsgroups as long as I have, you'll realize an adult on these
newsgroups is a veritable rarity.

> Correct, ALL of his 'issues' over the years are of his own making
> in order to provide him the fodder for his trolling.

This is where you're wrong, but since you acted like an adult would act in
your other statemnents above, we can be gentle with you by saying that you
think, apparently, that I shouldn't have any questions when trying to get
iOS equipment to work in the real world.

That's a fair assumption, if that is your assumption, that nobody should
post to an iOS newsgroup unless they always ask only questions that Apple
would want them to ask.

But it's now my assumption of the purpose of this newsgroup.

My assumption is that if I want an Apple product to work in the real world,
then if I have trouble understanding why that Apple product fails to work
as desired in the real world - that I am welcome to ask questions about it.

> Only if by 'real world' you mean the roughly 98% of the
> desktop/laptop that doesn't use Windows or MacOS.

As you know, I live in the Silicon Valley, where a huge proportion of my
friends and neighbors use Android, iOS, Linux, Mac, and Windows machines.

Just as Apple, in Cupertino, doesn't get to decide that the real world
doesn't include anyone who lives in an area that gets colder than, say, 0
degrees Fahrenheit, Apple also doesn't get to define what the real world
actually is.

Dear Apple: The real world gets colder than zero degrees.
Dear Apple: The real world includes Windows without iTunes and Linux too.

For you to claim that this is untrue is as illogical an adult argument that
the real world doesn't go below 0 degrees F.

It's a false claim that only a child would make who has no argument to make
based on facts.

You don't have to /like/ the real world, just as you don't have to like
cold weather, but for you to make such a baseless claim is astoundingly
remarkable.

Why can't you stop apologizing for Apple and just admit the clear and
obvious fact that Apple products don't actually work in the real world?

>> 2. HINT: Using a 3rd-party MUA is a real-world situation.
>>
> Yep, but the rules to use them with iCloud are not onerous no
> matter how much you write about it.

In this statement you, thankfully reverted from your childish assessment
that the real world doesn't exist outside of Apple's definition, to a more
logical adult assessment that the hurdles Apple artificially puts in place
to use its iCloud email aren't too high.

I agree with your assessment that there are hurdles that Apple puts in
place for 3rd party MUAs that don't exist for the Apple-mandated MUA, where
adults may differ reasonably on how important those hurdles are.

For me, the hurdles are such that I don't overcome them. I will do, as Joe
aptly suggested, what Apple users do all day, every day, all week, every
week, all year, every year - which is I will "just give up".

I have turned off Apple mail.
I have left off two-factor authorization.
Hence, I can not (as of June 2017) use a 3rd-party MUA to read my mail.

a. Apple creates the rules
b. I decide not to live my life by Apple's rules
c. Hence, Apple denies mail access to their server

Those who wish to be ruled by Apple will make different decisions than I.

> Except that it isn't a 'problem' at all. Just a rule that you
> don't like.

It's even simpler than a rule I don't like.

A. I choose to not live by Apple's rules,
B. Hence, Apple denies me mail access to their server.

Others, who have no problem living wholly by Apple's rules, will not be
denied access to Apple's mail server.

These are decisions adults make every day.

> All that 'real world' crap, is just that, crap. The 'real world'
> is about the roughly 98% of the desktop/laptop users that don't
> use Linux.

As I said above, you are simply apologizing for Apple by defining the real
world by the narrow self-serving rules that Apple uses to choose how Apple
makes money.

The fact Apple doesn't see moneymaking possibilities on machines that don't
run the iTunes abomination doesn't mean that those machines aren't in the
real world any more than Apple not testing their products below five
degrees F means that anyone who lives in Canada doesn't live in the real
world.

Apple can decide they don't make money by serving people in Canada.
But that doesn't mean that Canada isn't part of the real world.

You made the classic Apple Appologists' mistake of assuming that the real
world is only that part of the world where Apple Marketing figures they can
make money.

Why can't you act like an adult and just admit that both places like Canada
and operating systems such as Windows without iTunes and Linux are actually
part of the real world?

> It works fine with 3rd party MUAs.

That statement is just an Apple Apology, where your statement that it works
fine is like saying a coal-fired automobile works fine.

Sure, it works, if you put up with the negatives of driving a coal-fired
automobile.

But it doesn't work "fine" when compared to what all other platforms do.

To say it "works fine" is just another Apple Apology for what doesn't
actually work well at all.

> Yeah, iTunes only works in the real world of the roughly 98% of
> the desktop/laptop users.

Again, you make the same mistake Apple made when they effectively proved
they don't test their products in the real world.

Just as Canada is in the real world, so are Windows machines sans the
iTunes abomination and Linux machines.

For you to claim that the real world is only what Apple chooses to make
money off of, is just one of the many childish arguments that all the
half-dozen Apple Apologists use all the time when confronted with facts you
just don't like.

Why can't you iOS Apple Apologists simply admit the truth?
Why must you defend Apples' imaginary fabrications all the time.

Have you really absolutely no ability for independent thought?

--
HINT: Canada /is/ in the real world - whether you like it or not, as are
Linux and Windows sans the iTunes abomination.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 3:54:49 PM3/11/18
to
In article <news:110320181531414899%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

> don't set up two-factor and you won't need app-specific passwords.
>
> *your* choice.

Hi nospam,

Since you're one of the half-dozen child-like Apple Apologists, I won't
give your idiotic posts the same care that I just to Lloyd and to Joe, both
of whom acted like adults would act.

> yes it will, although it's very limiting if you don't.

Agreed.

> in other words, your problems are entirely your own fault.

Here is where you fall into your common childish rant that only Apple gets
to define how the world works.

Apple can decide they don't make money in cold places like Canada, nor with
people who own Windows machines sans the iTunes abomination, or Linux
desktops, but that doesn't mean that these things aren't part of the real
world.

Just as claiming Canada isn't part of the real world simply because Apple
doesn't test their products in Canada, you don't get to claim that Window
and Linux sans iTunes isn't part of the real world.

For you to make that claim, merely proves that you're a child-like Apple
Apologist, completely devoid of reasoning outside of the entirely
fabricated world wholly ensconced inside the imaginary walled garden.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 3:56:53 PM3/11/18
to
In article <news:110320181123101067%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> If you choose not to use the Apple-mandated MUA, then the penalty is that
>> Apple will force you to use passwords that are not of your choosing.
>>
>> Are these not the facts?
>
> no.

This post is directed to anyone who read my post to Lloyd, commending him
for being able to accept facts, which on any other newsgroup but the iOS
newsgroups, wouldn't be worth commending.

So, by you, nospam, being wholly unable to accept facts, you've proven my
point to Lloyd (and to Joe), that it's rare indeed, to find an adult on
this newsgroup, who can comprehend even the simplest of facts.

This inability of you, nospam, to accept facts, is why you're in the
eclectic group of the half-dozen or so Apple Apologists.

ElfinArc

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 4:10:49 PM3/11/18
to
Which is always the case. He doesn’t actually care about any of the
‘issues’ he bitches about sinc he mostly spend time trolling and looking
for the most arcane and difficult way to do things, so he can bitch about
it. Rinse, repeat, usually with yet another nym

--
Elfin

ElfinArc

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 4:10:50 PM3/11/18
to
Fortunately for Apple, they don’t believe you or those that think like you.
And between you and Apple, I think Apple made good choices for both them
and those that do use their stuff. And their bottom line proves it.

For me, all this is just blathering about things that don’t matter in the
real world, only in the minds of those that have more time on their hands
with nothing to do. Thinking with tech can be fun, I do it all the time,
though I do admit I don’t diddle with Linux these days. Too frustrating for
even some of the most trivial things IMO.

I’m down to MacOS, iOS, Android and chrome os these days. All because they
do things in mostly sane and logical ways, all have their share of quirks

--
Elfin

ElfinArc

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 4:19:33 PM3/11/18
to
Apple makes the choices they do because of a few reasons, as a user or
potential user, you should understand that.
1. They chose not to support Linux, which is a choice lots of developers
and manufacturers make for a very simple reason. That reason is that it is
a very minuscule part of the desktop/laptop market and most of those that
use Linux on the desktop don’t buy much in the way of Apple gear or
software. IOW, simple economics.
2. iTunes works fine though admittedly better on Mac than Windows boxes.
I’ve used it on both with no real issues over the years.

And while you claim the ‘real world’ includes Linux, Linux is a minuscule
part of it and not worth their time and money to support. Were I a
developer I would support Apple, Windows and Android. IOW places where
making money is probable.

What I don’t do as a user is look for the most difficult way to do
something, but then again, I don’t want to login from various countries
either. I consider both of those things idiotic. I know you think that
remaining anonymous is very important, but I doubt that anyone actually
cares who you actually are. You just aren’t that important.

--
Elfin

nospam

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 4:31:20 PM3/11/18
to
In article <p840lj$tvo$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Ragnusen Ultred
<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> I agree I was ignorant

not was.

*is*.

Savageduck

unread,
Mar 11, 2018, 4:42:09 PM3/11/18
to
On Mar 11, 2018, nospam wrote
(in article<110320181631207603%nos...@nospam.invalid>):
That *is* doesn’t read right, try *am* for *was*.

--

Regards,
Savageduck

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