Mac and iPhone both affected by big chip vulnerability

[Harry Newton]

Mac and iPhone both affected by big chip vulnerability
<https://www.axios.com/apple-mac-and-iphone-both-affected-by-big-chip-vulnerability-2522548093.html>

"After more than a day of silence, Apple confirmed Thursday that
the Mac, iPhone and iPad are all affected by the recently disclosed
massive chip vulnerability."

<https://www.axios.com/massive-chip-flaw-not-limited-to-intel-2522178225.html>
"ARM, whose chip designs are widely used in cell phones and other
devices, confirmed some of its chip architectures are affected,
including some of its Cortex-A processors. "This method requires
malware running locally and could result in data being accessed
from privileged memory," ARM said in a statement to Axios.

<https://www.pcworld.com/article/3245810/security/how-to-protect-your-pc-meltdown-spectre-cpu-flaws.html>
"Apple quietly worked Meltdown protections into macOS High Sierra
13.10.2, which released in December. If your Mac doesn+IBk-t automatically
apply updates, force it by going into the App Store+IBk-s Update tab."

"You also need to protect against Spectre, which tricks software into
accessing your protected kernel memory. Intel, AMD, and ARM chips are
vulnerable."

[nospam]

In article <p2mtkn$5oo$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Harry Newton

<harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:

> Mac and iPhone both affected by big chip vulnerability

along with windows and android, which you are intentionally neglecting
to mention.

<https://www.pcworld.com/article/3245790/mobile/spectre-cpu-faq-phones-t
ablets-ios-android.html>
Intel may have dominated most of the news surrounding the kernel bug
in processors, but itąs not just Windows and Macs that are at risk.
In addition to Meltdown, there is also a łbranch target injection˛
bug called Spectre that affects mobile ARM processors found in iOS
and Android phones, tablets, and other devices that could also expose
your data. Hereąs everything we know about it so far.
...
Just like Meltdown, Spectre can only be patched via software. Some
newer Android phones (such as the Samsung Galaxy S8 and Note 8) have
already been updated, and other manufacturers should start pushing
out their own updates within the next few weeks, as well as Appleąs
iOS devices. However, many Android phones will likely remain
vulnerable.

your galaxy s3, which is no longer being updated or patched, is
vulnerable.

[Harry Newton]

On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 23:16:56 -0500, nospam wrote:

> along with windows and android, which you are intentionally neglecting
> to mention.

I was informing the iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, and Mac users of a critical
vulnerability in their devices and in their applications (particularly in
the browsers).

What's wrong with informing users of this massive vulnerability?

Here's more data for interested Apple TV, iPhone, iPad, and Mac users:

iPhone and iPad are susceptible to widespread CPU flaw
<https://www.cultofmac.com/521595/nasty-cpu-flaw-also-present-iphone-ipad/>
"A nasty CPU flaw that leaves computer users' most sensitive data
at risk is also present in iPhone and iPad processors, Apple
confirmed Thursday. The "Spectre" bug has been discovered in the
mobile ARM processors that power iOS devices, as well as Apple TV."

[nospam]

In article <p2n1t3$aia$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Harry Newton

<harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:

>
> > along with windows and android, which you are intentionally neglecting
> > to mention.
>
> I was informing the iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, and Mac users of a critical
> vulnerability in their devices and in their applications (particularly in
> the browsers).

except that you ignored the part where it's not *just* macs and ios
devices.

it's pretty much everything made in the last roughly 20 years, other
than atom and itanium based products.

and as i said elsewhere, your obsolete galaxy s3 won't ever be patched.

[Harry Newton]

On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 00:28:20 -0500, nospam wrote:

> except that you ignored the part where it's not *just* macs and ios
> devices.

You seem to be ignorant of the fact this is an Apple newsgroup!

Keeping on topic here's more Apple-specific info in Apple's response today.

About speculative execution vulnerabilities in ARM-based and Intel CPUs
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208394>
"Security researchers have recently uncovered security issues known
by two names, Meltdown and Spectre."
"All Mac systems and iOS devices are affected"
"Apple Watch is not affected by Meltdown."
"In the coming days we plan to release mitigations in Safari
to help defend against Spectre."
"We continue to develop and test further mitigations for these
issues and will release them in upcoming updates of
iOS, macOS, tvOS, and watchOS."

Google Project Zero does a good job of explaining the
flaws in the Apple devices that Apple owners need to be aware of.
<https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.jp/2018/01/reading-privileged-memory-with-side.html>

Basically they have your password (& all your data) if they want it.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-01-05 00:28, nospam wrote:

> it's pretty much everything made in the last roughly 20 years, other
> than atom and itanium based products.

Itanium more likely to be vulnerable because the chip has offloaded to
the compilers much of the logic on ordering of instructions and the
marking of blocks of instructiosn that can be processed in parralel. So
the chip may have less brains to deal with the condition raised by this bug.

[nospam]

In article <2kO3C.407374$oE2....@fx33.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

>
> Itanium more likely to be vulnerable

no.

<https://meltdownattack.com/#faq-systems-meltdown>
Which systems are affected by Meltdown?
Desktop, Laptop, and Cloud computers may be affected by Meltdown.
More technically, every Intel processor which implements out-of-order
execution is potentially affected, which is effectively every
processor since 1995 (except Intel Itanium and Intel Atom before
2013).

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-01-05 12:12, nospam wrote:

> <https://meltdownattack.com/#faq-systems-meltdown>
> Which systems are affected by Meltdown?
> Desktop, Laptop, and Cloud computers may be affected by Meltdown.
> More technically, every Intel processor which implements out-of-order
> execution is potentially affected, which is effectively every
> processor since 1995 (except Intel Itanium and Intel Atom before
> 2013).

Actually, "out of order execution" is not used in this particular case.
We,re talking about 2 consecutive instructions and it is a case of
pipelining of sequential instructions that creates Meltdown.

So on Itanium, you can still have 2 sequential instructions with 1 being
executed while the next one is being prepared for execution.

Also, the Meltdown paper specifies that it only tested certain chips to
back to 2010. Itaniumn was not tested (as it is irrelevant). Arm
released a statement that its Cortex-A architecture (which Apple uses
for its Ax chips since A7) is vulnerable but not Cortex-M. (it wasn't
the researchers who tested ARM).

[Harry Newton]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:26:59 -0500, JF Mezei wrote:

> Also, the Meltdown paper specifies that it only tested certain chips to
> back to 2010. Itaniumn was not tested (as it is irrelevant). Arm
> released a statement that its Cortex-A architecture (which Apple uses
> for its Ax chips since A7) is vulnerable but not Cortex-M. (it wasn't
> the researchers who tested ARM).

By way of reference, this is a decent explanation of what we're talking
about for those who aren't familiar with computer architecture:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/why-raspberry-pi-isnt-vulnerable-to-spectre-or-meltdown/

Note that it's useful as a reference for describing the problem set, but
it's not Apple specific (I couldn't find an Apple specific similar
reference - can you?)

[Harry Newton]

On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 00:04:56 +0000 (UTC), Harry Newton wrote:

> By way of reference, this is a decent explanation of what we're talking
> about for those who aren't familiar with computer architecture:
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/why-raspberry-pi-isnt-vulnerable-to-spectre-or-meltdown/
>
> Note that it's useful as a reference for describing the problem set, but
> it's not Apple specific (I couldn't find an Apple specific similar
> reference - can you?)

I forgot the summary:

"The lack of speculation in the ARM1176, Cortex-A7, and Cortex-A53
cores used in Raspberry Pi render us immune to attacks of the sort."

[*Hemidactylus*]

Harry Newton <harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 00:28:20 -0500, nospam wrote:
>
>> except that you ignored the part where it's not *just* macs and ios
>> devices.
>
> You seem to be ignorant of the fact this is an Apple newsgroup!
>
> Keeping on topic here's more Apple-specific info in Apple's response today.
>
> About speculative execution vulnerabilities in ARM-based and Intel CPUs
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208394>
> "Security researchers have recently uncovered security issues known
> by two names, Meltdown and Spectre."
> "All Mac systems and iOS devices are affected"
> "Apple Watch is not affected by Meltdown."
> "In the coming days we plan to release mitigations in Safari
> to help defend against Spectre."
> "We continue to develop and test further mitigations for these
> issues and will release them in upcoming updates of
> iOS, macOS, tvOS, and watchOS."
>

You omitted: “Apple has already released mitigations in iOS 11.2, macOS
10.13.2, and tvOS 11.2 to help defend against Meltdown.”

Therefore Apple was already aware of the issue and did some at least
partial patching though didn’t say so as to keep a lid on the problem while
the entire tech industry was scrambling to find fixes. That makes Apple
look pretty good then. But you would choose not to admit to that right?

The chipmakers have egg on their faces. Apple, Microsoft and Linux
developers are trying to fix the problems introduced by companies such as
Intel. And from what I read about the Linux patches the performance hits
will be brutal.

[Harry Newton]

On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 20:12:22 -0600, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

> You omitted: "Apple has already released mitigations in iOS 11.2, macOS
> 10.13.2, and tvOS 11.2 to help defend against Meltdown."

I gave you the link to the complete Apple statement for heaven's sake.
All I did was pull out snippets of what threats remained to patch.

I did the same on the Wireless, Android, Windows & Linux newsgroups for
heaven's sake (see URLs below - not that you Apple Apologists read them
before complaining foul).

Nobody there in a half-dozen groups complained like you Apple Apologists
constantly cry about, where, on Linux especially, and on the Wireless
group, the immense detail that came out was enlightening.

Wi-Fi, Linux, Windows, & Android users act more like normal adults do.

It's always only the Apple Apologists who act the way you do and cry like
babies when they don't like what Apple themselves said.

> Therefore Apple was already aware of the issue and did some at least

> partial patching though didn+IBk-t say so as to keep a lid on the problem while

> the entire tech industry was scrambling to find fixes. That makes Apple
> look pretty good then. But you would choose not to admit to that right?

Nobody on the Android group comp.mobile.android complained when there are
entire Android phones which were patched by Google *weeks* ago - which I
didn't mention either - for the same reasons.

It's only the Apple Apologists who always cry like little babies when they
don't like what Apple themselves said.

> The chipmakers have egg on their faces. Apple, Microsoft and Linux
> developers are trying to fix the problems introduced by companies such as
> Intel. And from what I read about the Linux patches the performance hits
> will be brutal.

Yup.

Did you see the thread I authored on the Linux newsgroup alt.os.linux?

There is tons of detail, showing you are correct. There's a 30% hit under
the circumstances that are described in the posts in that thread.

REFERENCES

How the massive Meltdown & Spectre CPU flaws affect Android devices
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/nmGQkkqWm4E>

Details on the massive chip flaw & Spectre on Linux Intel & AMD computers
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/GBl_Oj7BJaU>

Anyone know if the massive CPU flaw (Meltdown & Spectre) are in our WiFi devices?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.internet.wireless/E7eqtDKRXLU>

Massive chip flaw on Windows Intel & AMD computers
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/ChtkiVpTp9U>

Mac and iPhone both affected by big chip vulnerability

<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.ipad/jVZqnUfdsK8>

[nospam]

In article <p2pdlf$2pr$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, Harry Newton

<harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:

> > Therefore Apple was already aware of the issue and did some at least
> > partial patching though didn+IBk-t say so as to keep a lid on the problem
> > while
> > the entire tech industry was scrambling to find fixes. That makes Apple
> > look pretty good then. But you would choose not to admit to that right?
>
> Nobody on the Android group comp.mobile.android complained when there are
> entire Android phones which were patched by Google *weeks* ago - which I
> didn't mention either - for the same reasons.

very few android phones have already been patched.

most android phones will never be patched, including yours.

roughly 90% of existing ios devices in use have already been patched.

[Jolly Roger]

*Hemidactylus* <ecph...@allspamis.invalid> wrote:
> Harry Newton <harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 00:28:20 -0500, nospam wrote:
>>
>>> except that you ignored the part where it's not *just* macs and ios
>>> devices.
>>
>> You seem to be ignorant of the fact this is an Apple newsgroup!
>>
>> Keeping on topic here's more Apple-specific info in Apple's response today.
>>
>> About speculative execution vulnerabilities in ARM-based and Intel CPUs
>> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208394>
>> "Security researchers have recently uncovered security issues known
>> by two names, Meltdown and Spectre."
>> "All Mac systems and iOS devices are affected"
>> "Apple Watch is not affected by Meltdown."
>> "In the coming days we plan to release mitigations in Safari
>> to help defend against Spectre."
>> "We continue to develop and test further mitigations for these
>> issues and will release them in upcoming updates of
>> iOS, macOS, tvOS, and watchOS."
>>
> You omitted: “Apple has already released mitigations in iOS 11.2, macOS
> 10.13.2, and tvOS 11.2 to help defend against Meltdown.”
>
> Therefore Apple was already aware of the issue and did some at least
> partial patching though didn’t say so as to keep a lid on the problem while
> the entire tech industry was scrambling to find fixes. That makes Apple
> look pretty good then. But you would choose not to admit to that right?

Nope, because: troll.

> The chipmakers have egg on their faces. Apple, Microsoft and Linux
> developers are trying to fix the problems introduced by companies such as
> Intel. And from what I read about the Linux patches the performance hits
> will be brutal.

He'll try to figure out a way to explain it with an anti-Apple slant
anyway. ; )

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[Harry Newton]

On 6 Jan 2018 03:13:52 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

> Nope, because: troll.

The same information was posted separately to the Windows, Linux, Wi-Fi,
home repair, scientific repair, and Android newsgroups, where lots of good
discussion resulted.

It's only on the Apple newsgroups where valid referenced timely facts are
considered trolls by the classic Apple Apologists.

--
Once again, Jolly Roger proves Apple Apologists are not like normal adults.

[Harry Newton]

On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 22:06:31 -0500, nospam wrote:

> very few android phones have already been patched.
>
> most android phones will never be patched, including yours.
>
> roughly 90% of existing ios devices in use have already been patched.

It's a fact that only you Apple Apologists complain when I provided
Apple-only links to the Apple-only newsgroups that I didn't bring up the
red herring that other devices have the same problems Apple has.

The Android newsgroup didn't complain and I didn't even *mention* that
Google patched all their supported phones long ago.

How the massive Meltdown & Spectre CPU flaws affect Android devices
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/nmGQkkqWm4E>

The Linux users didn't complain when I didn't mention Apple devices:

Details on the massive chip flaw & Spectre on Linux Intel & AMD computers
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/GBl_Oj7BJaU>

The Windows users didn't complain when I only spoke about Windows:

Massive chip flaw on Windows Intel & AMD computers
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/ChtkiVpTp9U>

The scientific electronics group didn't complain like Apple Apologists do:
Details on the massive Meltdown & Spectre CPU flaws on almost all CPUs with
"predictive" fetches since about 1995
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.electronics.repair/rtXy_rhkXHY>

And to be fair ot the non Apple Apologists here, only you bona-fide Apple
Apologists complained on the Apple newsgroups that they didn't like the
facts quoted in the Apple statement.

--
Yet another example where Apple Appologists are not like normal people.

[Jolly Roger]

Harry Newton <harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 22:06:31 -0500, nospam wrote:
>
>> very few android phones have already been patched.
>>
>> most android phones will never be patched, including yours.
>>
>> roughly 90% of existing ios devices in use have already been patched.
>

> Blah blah blah Apple Apologists blah blah blah

Get some new material, old man. You're a broken record.

[Jolly Roger]

Harry Newton <harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:
> On 6 Jan 2018 03:13:52 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> Nope, because: troll.
>
> The same information

Troll, troll, troll your boat...

[*Hemidactylus*]

Harry Newton <harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 20:12:22 -0600, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>
>> You omitted: "Apple has already released mitigations in iOS 11.2, macOS
>> 10.13.2, and tvOS 11.2 to help defend against Meltdown."
>
> I gave you the link to the complete Apple statement for heaven's sake.
> All I did was pull out snippets of what threats remained to patch.
>

The animosity toward Apple was at least implied and reinforced with your
gratuitous Apple Apologist insult misdirected toward me.

>
> I did the same on the Wireless, Android, Windows & Linux newsgroups for
> heaven's sake (see URLs below - not that you Apple Apologists read them
> before complaining foul).
>
> Nobody there in a half-dozen groups complained like you Apple Apologists
> constantly cry about, where, on Linux especially, and on the Wireless
> group, the immense detail that came out was enlightening.
>

Umm, ask nospam or Jolly Roger if I am an “Apple Apologist”. Is your memory
that ephemeral?

>
> Wi-Fi, Linux, Windows, & Android users act more like normal adults do.
>
> It's always only the Apple Apologists who act the way you do and cry like
> babies when they don't like what Apple themselves said.
>

Oh the frickin irony. Pot meet kettle.

>
>> Therefore Apple was already aware of the issue and did some at least
>> partial patching though didn+IBk-t say so as to keep a lid on the problem while
>> the entire tech industry was scrambling to find fixes. That makes Apple
>> look pretty good then. But you would choose not to admit to that right?
>
> Nobody on the Android group comp.mobile.android complained when there are
> entire Android phones which were patched by Google *weeks* ago - which I
> didn't mention either - for the same reasons.
>
> It's only the Apple Apologists who always cry like little babies when they
> don't like what Apple themselves said.
>

Broken record troll.

>
>> The chipmakers have egg on their faces. Apple, Microsoft and Linux
>> developers are trying to fix the problems introduced by companies such as
>> Intel. And from what I read about the Linux patches the performance hits
>> will be brutal.
>
> Yup.
>
> Did you see the thread I authored on the Linux newsgroup alt.os.linux?
>

Are you that self absorbed that you think I am going to follow your wit and
wisdom on other groups? It’s excessive enough here and life is too short?
Are you a syndicated columnist?

>
> There is tons of detail, showing you are correct. There's a 30% hit under
> the circumstances that are described in the posts in that thread.
>

Already knew that.

[Your Name]

On 2018-01-06 02:12:22 +0000, *Hemidactylus* said:
>
<snip>

>
> The chipmakers have egg on their faces. Apple, Microsoft and Linux
> developers are trying to fix the problems introduced by companies such as
> Intel. And from what I read about the Linux patches the performance hits
> will be brutal.

In the case of the A-series chips used in iOS devices, Apple *is* the
chipmaker (or at least chip designer). :-)

[Harry Newton]

On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 22:29:55 -0600, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

> The animosity toward Apple was at least implied and reinforced with your
> gratuitous Apple Apologist insult misdirected toward me.

What you Apple Apologists term as "animosity" are verbatim quotes.
Even the Subject of this is a verbatim title of a news article.
The opening post was 100% verbatim published quotes.

You Apple Apologists call the truth, "animosity".

Notice that I published platform-related verbatim quotes on the Android
newsgroup, and on the Linux newsgroup, and on the Windows newsgroups, and
nobody but the Apple Apologists cry 'troll' or 'animosity'.

You Apple Apologists are not normal adults.

You call the truth, animosity.

[Harry Newton]

On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 18:31:29 +1300, Your Name wrote:

> In the case of the A-series chips used in iOS devices, Apple *is* the
> chipmaker (or at least chip designer). :-)

Great description here:
https://meltdownattack.com/

Paraphrased:

Meltdown melts security down between program and hardware.
Spectre speculative execution tricks program access to app memory.

Lots of detail, papers, links for every operating system, etc.

[*Hemidactylus*]

Ok egg on my face then. At least Apple is well placed to remedy the problem
as they already have taken steps. I guess that makes me an “apologist” in
legion with others here.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2018-01-06, Harry Newton <harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 22:29:55 -0600, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>
>> The animosity toward Apple was at least implied and reinforced with your
>> gratuitous Apple Apologist insult misdirected toward me.
>

> Blah blah blah Apple Apologists blah blah blah blah

Broken record troll.

[Harry Newton]

On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 11:00:16 -0600, *Hemidactylus* wrote:

> Ok egg on my face then. At least Apple is well placed to remedy the problem

> as they already have taken steps. I guess that makes me an +IBw-apologist+IB0- in
> legion with others here.

No. It's ok to admit *facts*.
Admitting facts is not what makes an Apple Apologist.

An Apple Apologist is one who incessantly brazenly *fabricates* imaginary
functionality in Apple devices that simply does not exist (e.g., Snit
posted his fabrications of iOS functionality over 400 times alone!).

And they incessantly deny facts by outright lies and clever contortions
(e.g., nospam is the most cleverly duplicitous at this technique).

The fact that the Apple Apologists also call any fact they don't like a
troll, just makes them trolls (e.g., Jolly Roger is the biggest troll, who
also happens to be an Apple Apologist).

There really are only a handful of Apple Apologists, and they all exhibit
the traits of Apple Apologists in all their posts.
* They are incessant fabricators of imaginary functionality
* They brazenly deny facts (even those admitted by Apple themselves)

[Harry Newton]

On 6 Jan 2018 17:36:28 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

> Broken record troll.

More proof you Apple Apologists are not normal adults.

Every truth you don't like - you call a troll.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2018-01-06, Harry Newton <harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:

> On 6 Jan 2018 17:36:28 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> Broken record troll.
>

> Blah blah blah Apple Apologists blah blah blah blah

Broken record.

[Harry Newton]

On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 18:18:43 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

>>An Apple Apologist is one who incessantly brazenly *fabricates* imaginary
>>functionality in Apple devices that simply does not exist (e.g., Snit
>>posted his fabrications of iOS functionality over 400 times alone!).
>

> What *are* you talking about?

The odd behavior of the Apple Apologists is well known and obvious.
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/fyL1cQUVCp0/JuzcDNwhBgAJ>

Almost every day, the Apple Apologists brazenly fabricate non-existing
imaginary Apple functionality.

Why do iOS apologists incessantly fabricate fictional iOS functionality?
* <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/K_yBNZiPFYo/yekUPvIXAwAJ>

> Please give actual examples.

* It's a fact iOS devices can't even graph Wi-Fi signal strength over time
* <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0/3PHWnNWnAQAJ>

That thread is simply the *end* of the incessant set of *hundreds* upon
*hundreds* (I'm not exaggerating!) of posts where one particularly prolific
Apple Apologist brazenly fabricated imaginary Wi-Fi recording-strength
functionality that simply does not exist except in his head.

>>And they incessantly deny facts by outright lies and clever contortions
>>(e.g., nospam is the most cleverly duplicitous at this technique).
>

> Examples please.

Look at nospam's response just this week, still *brazenly* implying that
iOS has the functionality that it just does not have and never did:
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/fyL1cQUVCp0/YYB2LmdTAAAJ>

He says we've been "told how" and it's a "lie" that it can't, but he's
simply brazenly fabricating functionality in his mind that never existed.

If he brazenly fabricated non-existent Apple functionality only once a
week, that wouldn't be so bad, but he does it in *all* responses to *any*
technical question.

He simply lies - and then when you call him out on his lies - he says he
told you and you won't do it - and yet - it's all a brazen lie from the
start.

One has to wonder what his game is, since he is so easily proven wrong, but
there must be some gullible Apple owners who actually believe him (since
Jolly Roger and the other Apple Apologists clearly pile on agreeing with
him - and yet - not a one can come up with a single corroborating fact).


There's an entire thread with examples on how the Apple Apologists
incessantly deny facts that any normal adult already admits:

* What is wrong with the Apple Apologists that they deny even what Apple
admitted?
* <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/fyL1cQUVCp0>

>>The fact that the Apple Apologists also call any fact they don't like a
>>troll, just makes them trolls (e.g., Jolly Roger is the biggest troll, who
>>also happens to be an Apple Apologist).
>>
>>There really are only a handful of Apple Apologists, and they all exhibit
>>the traits of Apple Apologists in all their posts.
>>* They are incessant fabricators of imaginary functionality
>>* They brazenly deny facts (even those admitted by Apple themselves)
>

> Again, examples. Otherwise you're just the kid in the playground
> complaining to teacher that it was Snit or nospam or Jolly Roger what
> done it.

You can't even be serious in asking for *examples* as they abound in the
iOS newsgroups. Every day, the Apple Apologists exasperate normal adults
with their silly antics.

Notice this discussion recently where Jolly Roger is the Apple Apologist
exasperating a normal adult, JF Mezei:

<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/zM-uvnUrSCk/jHT85o0ZBAAJ>

Then notice that the Apple Apologist Jolly Roger doing the same thing to
another normal person, Alan Browne:

<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/zM-uvnUrSCk/o5ZXhJgaBAAJ>

This happens only on the iOS newsgroups (not on Android, Windows, Linux,
newsgroups, as I've run multiple tests asking the *same* question of each,
where only on the iOS newsgroups do the Apple Apologists pull this stunt.)

This classic deflection is what I call the "kid with his hand in the cookie
jar" argument by the Apple Apologists.

Even Apple did it in their idiotic message about "batteries".

The deflection argument relies on people being inherently stupid.
Hence, they feel it works because they're not used to non-stupid people.

As you know, it's the classic Apple Apologists' tactic which goes like
this:

Mom: "Billy - is your hand in the cookie jar?"
Billy: No. (Pulls hand out of cookie jar.)
Mom: Is that chocolate on your face?
Billy: No. (Wipes face.)
Mom: Why did you eat those cookies?
Billy: I didn't eat the cookies! (Shakes crumbs off of clothing.)
Mom: Why are cookie crumbs all over you?
Billy: But Susan across the street hits her dog!
Mom: What does that have to do with you getting caught eating the cookies?
Billy: But Sammy next door threw a rock at the window!
(this goes on forever)

Why are the Apple Apologists not like normal people?
Answer: I don't know why - but they're not normal.

They exhibit absolutely no comprehension of logical fact.
What is wrong with the Apple Apologists that they can't comprehend facts?

[Harry Newton]

On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 19:46:12 +0000 (UTC), Harry Newton wrote:

> Almost every day, the Apple Apologists brazenly fabricate non-existing
> imaginary Apple functionality.

You have to realize whom you're dealing with when you deal with these Apple
Apologists who claim everyone else is a troll but they themselves.

This single screenshot explains it all graphically in a way words can't:
<http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/10/11/wifi_sweetspots.jpg>

One Apple Apologist trolled this video *over 400* times alone:
itle: iOS showing Wi-Fi over time
URL: <https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo>]

In that video, the Apple Apologist Snit claims that iOS does have the
functionality that I proved long before it does not.

Worse - the Apple Apologists you're dealing with *congratulated* Snit for
"proving Harry wrong" when, in fact, absolutely none of the Apple
Apologists knew the difference between a decibel and a megabit!
<http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/10/11/fritzapp.jpg>
<http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/10/11/wifianalyzer.jpg>

And yet, there must have been at least *400 additional posts* where nospam
claims to have proven it to us numerous times, and where Jolly Roger claims
that we're all "old fools" for not believing their completely baseless
claims.

It's a fact iOS devices can't even graph Wi-Fi signal strength over time

<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0%5B26-50%5D>

So that's something like 800 posts, almost all of which are the Apple
Apologists denying what is, to normal adults, obvious fact.

Why do the Apple Apologists act this way?
I do not know the answer.

Every single time they post, I have to ask myself:
a. Are they really clueless (they don't know a megabit from a decibel?)
b. Or, do they do this on purpose (since they post it 800 times!)

I still don't know the answer to that question.
Do you?

[Jolly Roger]

On 2018-01-06, Harry Newton <harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 19:46:12 +0000 (UTC), Harry Newton wrote:
>
>> Almost every day, the Apple Apologists brazenly fabricate non-existing
>> imaginary Apple functionality.
>
> You have to realize whom you're dealing with

Talking to himself again. A troll's gotta troll.

[Harry Newton]

On 6 Jan 2018 18:01:51 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

> Broken record.
> References to fluff opinion pieces aren't "facts"

What is interesting is that almost every news provider asked each
manufacturer for a statement, and each Android manufacturer supplied a
definitive statement.

Those definitive statements were widely reported in the news, and *none*
disagree with each other.

You Apple Apologists are the *only* ones disagreeing with these facts.
Why?

I posit that you hate facts that shake your fundamental belief system.

In addition, I posit that you're not well educated, such that you tend to
vastly overly rely on your fundamental belief system rather than facts
which don't support your fundamental belief system.

Who are the Apple Apologists?
*Jolly Roger, Lewis, nospam, BKonRamp, Savageduck, Hemidactylus, etc.*

It's why you Apple Apologists act the way you do - which is sad - because
if you disappeared - the quality of the technical information in this
newsgroup would go up by a few orders of magnitude and the sharing of
factual technical information would improve exponentially.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2018-01-10, Harry Newton <harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:
> On 6 Jan 2018 18:01:51 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> Broken record.
>> References to fluff opinion pieces aren't "facts"
>

> each Android manufacturer supplied a definitive statement.

No facts are present in those statements, silly troll.

> Apple Apologists

>
> Who are the Apple Apologists?

Anyone who calls out your lies and trolls.

> It's why you Apple Apologists

Get some new material, old fart.

[Harry Newton]

On 10 Jan 2018 04:48:38 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

> No facts are present in those statements, silly troll.

I love when you post because from you I learn the most.

Do you see what you do constantly?

Each of those references contained direct quotes from the Android
manufacturers which directly refuted what you believe.

So you hate the facts that don't conform to your belief system.

The way you cope with facts that don't fit your belief system is to deny
the facts.

You do it constantly.
Do you notice yourself doing that?

[nospam]

In article <p345hb$7r5$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Harry Newton

<harryn...@AlliOSusersJustGiveUp.com> wrote:

>
> What is interesting is that almost every news provider asked each
> manufacturer for a statement, and each Android manufacturer supplied a
> definitive statement.

very carefully worded statements.

samsung said they don't do it 'via software updates', which leaves
*many* other possibilities.

and if they don't do it, the phone may shut down prematurely, resulting
in lawsuits:

<https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/21/lawsuit-takes-aim-at-google-huawei-
over-nexus-6p-battery-issues/>
The Nexus 6P hit the market in late 2015. It's a $500 smartphone with
a 5.7 inch screen that was, overall, a welcome improvement over the
previous year's Nexus 6. As long as it didn't suddenly shut off with
full battery, that is.
...
The Nexus 6P joins a handful of other past-gen Android phones
embroiled in lawsuits over dysfunctional devices, including LG's G4,
V10, G5, V20 and even the Nexus 5X.

[Harry Newton]

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 04:01:57 -0500, nospam wrote:

> very carefully worded statements.

That's hilarious coming from you who says that Apple *clearly* explained
their secret, permanent, and drastic CPU throttling way back when they
released the iOS 10.x release notes!

> samsung said they don't do it 'via software updates', which leaves
> *many* other possibilities.

This is exactly why you'd be a good defense lawyer, but a lousy prosecutor.

You try to leave open all sorts of imaginary possibilities in the jury's
mind, without actually proving a single one of them.

If you were the prosecution, you'd have to *prove* that Samsung *secretly*,
*permanently*, and *drastically* throttled CPU performance (basically to
less than half the original CPU speeds) after about a year of use.

[David B.]

On 10/01/2018 04:41, Harry Newton wrote:
> It's why you Apple Apologists act the way you do - which is sad - because

> if you disappeared - the quality of the technical information *in this
> newsgroup* would go up by a few orders of magnitude and the sharing of

> factual technical information would improve exponentially.

You say "in this newsgroup" - but the message is cross-posted.

To *WHICH* specific newsgroup do you refer, Harry?

--
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick
themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” (Winston S.
Churchill)