datetime issue

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

Hello again,

one small matter too.

# get some enviromental values
locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, 'el_GR')

..........
..........

date = datetime.datetime.now().strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S' )


although iam setting greek as locale the time is 8 hours before, like in texas, us

How can i change this to save the correct Greek time in variable $date ?

Thank you.

[Jason Friedman]

> # get some enviromental values
> locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, 'el_GR')

> date = datetime.datetime.now().strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S' )

>
> although iam setting greek as locale the time is 8 hours before, like in texas, us
> How can i change this to save the correct Greek time in variable $date ?

http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/datetime.html#tzinfo-objects
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/117514/how-do-i-use-timezones-with-a-datetime-object-in-python
http://pytz.sourceforge.net/

Reading these links suggests that datetime.now() will return the
system time regardless of your locale setting.
Use a timezone to generate a timestamp for someplace other than where
your server sits.

[Chris Rebert]

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello again,
>
> one small matter too.
>
> # get some enviromental values
> locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, 'el_GR')

<snip>

> date = datetime.datetime.now().strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S' )
>
> although iam setting greek as locale

Locales don't affect timezones. Otherwise, how would expatriate
communities, or countries wide enough to span several timezones,
properly configure their software?

> the time is 8 hours before, like in texas, us

Which is where HostGator operates out of.

> How can i change this to save the correct Greek time in variable $date ?

Use the `pytz` package that Jason pointed out.

Cheers,
Chris

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

I did read but wasnt able to set it to greek time.
Please tell me how should i write this.

date = datetime.datetime.now().strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S',gmt+2 )

didnt work out for me.

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

Τη Σάββατο, 15 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 10:05:49 μ.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Chris Rebert έγραψε:

[MRAB]

On 2012-09-15 20:26, οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ wrote:
> οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½, 15 οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ 2012 10:05:49 οΏ½.οΏ½. UTC+3, οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ Chris Rebert οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½:

>> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:33 AM, οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hello again,
>> >
>> > one small matter too.
>>
>> > # get some enviromental values
>> > locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, 'el_GR')
>> <snip>
>> > date = datetime.datetime.now().strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S' )
>> >
>> > although iam setting greek as locale
>>
>> Locales don't affect timezones. Otherwise, how would expatriate
>> communities, or countries wide enough to span several timezones,
>> properly configure their software?
>>
>> > the time is 8 hours before, like in texas, us
>>
>> Which is where HostGator operates out of.
>>
>> > How can i change this to save the correct Greek time in variable
$date ?
>>
>> Use the `pytz` package that Jason pointed out.
>>

> I did read but wasnt able to set it to greek time.
> Please tell me how should i write this.
>
> date = datetime.datetime.now().strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S',gmt+2 )
>
> didnt work out for me.
>

Does this help?

import datetime

# The time as UTC (GMT).
now_utc = datetime.datetime.utcnow()
print(now_utc.strftime('%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S'))

# The time as UTC+2.
now_local = now_utc + datetime.timedelta(hours=2)
print(now_local.strftime('%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S'))

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

If i wanted to alter the following line, how would i write it?

date = datetime.datetime.now()+datetime.timedelta(hours=2).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')

But that doesnt work,

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

Τη Σάββατο, 15 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 11:28:47 μ.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης MRAB έγραψε:

If i wanted to alter the following line, how would i write it?

date = datetime.datetime.now()+datetime.timedelta(hours=2).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')

But that doesnt work,

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

dn = datetime.datetime.now()
dd = datetime.timedelta(hours=2)
date = dn + dd
date = date.strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S' )

still giving me texas,us time for some reason

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

which is same as this:

date = ( datetime.datetime.now() + datetime.timedelta(hours=2) ).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')

this also doesnt work either:

date = ( datetime.datetime.now(hours=2).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')

if only it would!

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

Τη Κυριακή, 16 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 10:51:18 π.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Νικόλαος Κούρας έγραψε:

which is same as this:

date = ( datetime.datetime.now() + datetime.timedelta(hours=2) ).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')

this also doesnt work either:

date = ( datetime.datetime.now(hours=2).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')

if only it would!

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

Τη Κυριακή, 16 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 8:53:57 π.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Dennis Lee Bieber έγραψε:
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 22:15:38 -0700 (PDT), Íéêüëáïò Êïýñáò
>
> <nikos...@gmail.com> declaimed the following in
>
> gmane.comp.python.general:

>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > If i wanted to alter the following line, how would i write it?
>
> >
>
> > date = datetime.datetime.now()+datetime.timedelta(hours=2).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')
>
> >
>
> > But that doesnt work,
>
>
>

> What did you expect? Object methods bind tighter than operators so
>
> what you have is the equivalent of
>
>
>
> dn = datetime.datetime.now()
>
> dd = datetime.timedelta(hours=2).strftime(...)

>
> date = dn + dd
>
>
>

> Try
>
>
>
> >>> import datetime

>
> >>> date = datetime.datetime.now()+datetime.timedelta(hours=2).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')
>

> Traceback (most recent call last):
>
> File "<interactive input>", line 1, in <module>
>
> AttributeError: 'datetime.timedelta' object has no attribute 'strftime'
>
> >>> date = (datetime.datetime.now()+datetime.timedelta(hours=2) ).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')
>
> >>> date
>
> '12-09-16 03:50:44'
>
> >>>
>
>
>
> Note the ( ) wrapping the the + clause, with strftime() applied to
>
> the result of that...
>
> --
>
> Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
>
> wlf...@ix.netcom.com HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/



date = ( datetime.datetime.now() + datetime.timedelta(hours=8) ).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')

but iam giving +8 hours which is the time difference between texas, us where the server sits and Greece's time.

cant we somehow tell it to use GMT+2 ?

also it would be nice if datetime.datetime.now(GMT+2) can be used.

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

Τη Κυριακή, 16 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 8:53:57 π.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Dennis Lee Bieber έγραψε:
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 22:15:38 -0700 (PDT), Íéêüëáïò Êïýñáò
>
> <nikos...@gmail.com> declaimed the following in
>
> gmane.comp.python.general:
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>

> > If i wanted to alter the following line, how would i write it?
>
> >
>
> > date = datetime.datetime.now()+datetime.timedelta(hours=2).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')
>
> >
>
> > But that doesnt work,
>
>
>

> What did you expect? Object methods bind tighter than operators so
>
> what you have is the equivalent of
>
>
>
> dn = datetime.datetime.now()
>
> dd = datetime.timedelta(hours=2).strftime(...)
>
> date = dn + dd
>
>
>
> Try
>
>
>
> >>> import datetime
>

> >>> date = datetime.datetime.now()+datetime.timedelta(hours=2).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')
>

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 01:25:30 -0700, Νικόλαος Κούρας wrote:
[...]

You seem to be emailing python-list AND posting to comp.lang.python (or
the gmane mirror). Please pick one, or the other, and not both, because
the mailing list and the newsgroup are mirrors of each other. Anything
you send to the mailing list will be mirrored on the newsgroup
automatically, there is no need to manually duplicate the post.


Thank you.


--
Steven

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done.

Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.

Whats a mailing list?
Can i get responses to my mail instead of constantly check the google groups site?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 03:15:11 -0700, Νικόλαος Κούρας wrote:

> Whats a mailing list?
> Can i get responses to my mail instead of constantly check the google
> groups site?

http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



--
Steven

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

Thank you, i prefer to be notifies only to thread iam initiating or answering to not all of te threads. Is this possible?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 03:54:45 -0700, Νικόλαος Κούρας wrote:

> Τη Κυριακή, 16 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 1:49:38 μ.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Steven
> D'Aprano έγραψε:
>> On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 03:15:11 -0700, Νικόλαος Κούρας wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Whats a mailing list?
>>
>> > Can i get responses to my mail instead of constantly check the google
>>
>> > groups site?
>>
>>
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

> Thank you, i prefer to be notifies only to thread iam initiating or
> answering to not all of te threads. Is this possible?

No. That's not how mailing lists work. Every email gets posted to all
members, unless they go onto "No Mail", in which case they get no emails
at all.

You are not paying anything for the help you are receiving, except to
give your own time in return to help others. We are all volunteers here,
and nobody is going to force you to volunteer in return, but if everyone
only received threads that they initiated, nobody would see new threads
and nobody would get any answers at all.



--
Steven

[Νικόλαος Κούρας]

You are right, i will set to receive them all.

But i dont know what to do about the thing you say that i double post.

I use google groups i dont intentionally post to python-list too.

How can i avoid that and just only post to python google group?

[Ben Finney]

Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos...@gmail.com> writes:

> Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done.
>
> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.

It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to
Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious
than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except
use something else.

Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long
time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of
us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop
using Google Groups.

--
\ “Actually I made up the term “object-oriented”, and I can tell |
`\ you I did not have C++ in mind.” —Alan Kay, creator of |
_o__) Smalltalk, at OOPSLA 1997 |
Ben Finney

[Roy Smith]

In article <4f9d9a0b-539a-4b6a...@googlegroups.com>,

�������� ������ <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:


> Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done.
>
> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>
> Whats a mailing list?

Is it September already?

[Günther Dietrich]

In article <cdf072b2-7359-4417...@googlegroups.com>,
Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

>also it would be nice if datetime.datetime.now(GMT+2) can be used.

In <news:mailman.774.13477359...@python.org>, one of
the first answers to your question you were pointed to pytz. This module
does exactly what you ask for:

>>> import datetime
>>> import pytz
>>> greek_date = datetime.datetime.now(pytz.timezone('Europe/Athens'))
>>> greek_date
>>> print(greek_date)

If you do a help(pytz), obviously after having imported pytz, you will
get some information about the module. At the end of this help, there
are some attributes listed. One of them is all_timezones. Guess what it
contains?



Best regards,

Günther




PS: I didn't know pytz yet. But it took me just five minutes of reading
the datetime documentation and trying pytz.timezone(), to get a working
example.
So I don't understand, why you didn't follow the proposal of trying
pytz, but claimed, it wouldn't work.
Can you explain, why ist doesn't work for you rsp. what is the error
when it doesn't work?

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Roy Smith <r...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <4f9d9a0b-539a-4b6a...@googlegroups.com>,

> Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done.
>>
>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>>
>> Whats a mailing list?
>
> Is it September already?

Yes, it is; what does that mean in response to this question? Is there
something about September that causes the question, or is it a once
per month[1] question?

ChrisA
[1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OncePerEpisode

[Chris Angelico]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:06 AM, Roy Smith <r...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.789.13478023...@python.org>,

> Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Is it September already?
>>
>> Yes, it is; what does that mean in response to this question? Is there
>> something about September that causes the question, or is it a once
>> per month[1] question?
>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

Ohh, yes. I do remember reading about that. Yes, it is definitely September.

Back in 1993, I wasn't yet started on networking. My dad ran things,
because I was only nine years old, and he definitely (and quite
rightly) didn't let me onto the internet. So I'm a tad young to know
about these things beyond what I've read in the history books...

ChrisA

[MRAB]

On 2012-09-16 09:25, Νικόλαος Κούρας wrote:
[snip]

>
> date = ( datetime.datetime.now() + datetime.timedelta(hours=8) ).strftime( '%y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')
>
> but iam giving +8 hours which is the time difference between texas, us where the server sits and Greece's time.
>
> cant we somehow tell it to use GMT+2 ?
>
> also it would be nice if datetime.datetime.now(GMT+2) can be used.
>

In programming, you need attention to details.

My reply didn't use datetime.datetime.now(), it used
datetime.datetime.utcnow().

datetime.datetime.now() gives the local time (local to the system on
which it is running).

datetime.datetime.utcnow() gives the UTC (GMT) time, which is the same
everywhere.

The line should be this:

date = (datetime.datetime.utcnow() + datetime.timedelta(hours=8)
).strftime('%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S')

I've also used '%Y' instead of '%y' because I prefer 4 digits for the year.

[pandor...@gmail.com]

Cant it be written more easily as:
date = (datetime.datetime.utcnow(+2)

i know this is not thhe correct syntax but it just needs a way to add GMT+2 hours since utc=gmt

[pandor...@gmail.com]

[pandor...@gmail.com]

If i ditch google groups what application can i use in Windows 8 to post to this newsgroup and what newsserver too?

[pandor...@gmail.com]

import pytz fails in my webhost unfortunately :(
This module is not supported by hostgator.

[pandor...@gmail.com]

Whaen i tried to post just now by hitting sumbit, google groups told me that the following addresssed has benn found in this thread! i guess is used them all to notify everything!

cdf072b2-7359-4417...@googlegroups.com
mailman.774.13477359...@python.org
nikos...@gmail.com

[Chris Angelico]

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:40 AM, <pandor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Cant it be written more easily as:
> date = (datetime.datetime.utcnow(+2)
>
> i know this is not thhe correct syntax but it just needs a way to add GMT+2 hours since utc=gmt

I've dithered about whether to open this can of worms or let sleeping
dogs lie, and I finally decided to make some metaphor potpourri.

Simple UTC offsets are not the same thing as local time. There are a
variety of other considerations, but the main one is Daylight Robbery
Time, where every government wants to put its own stamp on things by
fiddling with the DST rules a bit. Most places will move their clocks
an hour forward for summer and then back for winter. But!

* Some places are sensible and don't have DST at all (eg
Australia/Queensland, America/Arizona)
* Northern hemisphere summer corresponds to southern hemisphere
winter, and vice versa
* Everyone has a different way of defining the boundaries of summer and winter
* And just to confuse us all, Irish Standard Time is used in summer,
and they *subtract* an hour for winter time!

The only way to handle timezones correctly and keep yourself even
marginally sane is to hand the job on to somebody else. I dodged the
whole issue by letting our Postgres database handle everything for us
(date/time formats, timezones, the lot), and having our internal
systems all just work in UTC. You'll likely find it easiest to do the
same thing with a Python library.

Just don't try to pretend to yourself that Greece uses GMT+2, because
it's not that simple. For one thing, it's currently summer there...

ChrisA

[Chris Angelico]

Ah. Did you then send to all three? Just a wild guess, but I'm
thinking that might be the cause of post duplication...

ChrisA

[Joel Goldstick]

> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

email client to pytho...@python.org



--
Joel Goldstick

[pandor...@gmail.com]

>
> Ah. Did you then send to all three? Just a wild guess, but I'm
>
> thinking that might be the cause of post duplication...
>
>
>
> ChrisA

I had no choise, it doesnt let me pick one, it just notifies me that it will posted to these 3.

[pandor...@gmail.com]

>
> Ah. Did you then send to all three? Just a wild guess, but I'm
>
> thinking that might be the cause of post duplication...
>
>
>
> ChrisA

[pandor...@gmail.com]

>
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
>
> email client to pytho...@python.org
>

wait a minute! i must use my ISP's news server and then post o comp.lang.python no?

What is pytho...@python.org how can i post there?

[pandor...@gmail.com]

>
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
>
> email client to pytho...@python.org
>

[Joel Goldstick]

> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

go to the url http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

sign up and use your email client instead.

--
Joel Goldstick

[Terry Reedy]

On 9/16/2012 11:41 AM, pandor...@gmail.com wrote:

> If i ditch google groups

PLEASE DO

> what application can i use in Windows 8 to post to this newsgroup
> and what newsserver too?

news.gmane.org is a free newsserver that mirrors 1000s of technical
email lists. python-list is gmane.comp.python.general. There are 100s of
other gmane.comp.python.* groups.

I use Thunderbird on Win7 because it does both mail and news. I
previously used Outlook Express for same. There are others.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 16 September 2012 12:08:47 pandor...@gmail.com did opine:

Look, this googlegroups thing acting as a spam gateway has long since
gotten old. Whatever agent/program you are using must be a busted windows
application because it is not showing you the last line of every post that
comes through the list server which is:

<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>

There is, immediately above that line a '-- ' (note the space after, and
its always after a linefeed or carriage return so its the first character
of a line, and its code to all sane email agents that anything below it is
a signature and not to be copied into a reply. Windows email tends to clip
it off and a windows user will never see it! So that is why many of us
lament, in long strings of expletives, the brokenness of windows email
agents.

Subscribing to the mailing list is a 2 step process. First you click on
the above link and fill out the form and "submit" it.

That will, in a minute or so, cause an email to be sent to the address you
used in the form. You MUST reply to that message to confirm the
subscription. Whatever email agent you use from there is up to you, but
I'd suggest Thunderbird. I personally am partial to kmail, but then I'm
running linux on everything here, no M$ stuff allowed on the premises. Its
not open for discussion and has not been in 28 years since I discovered the
trs-80 color computer and an operating system for it called OS9.

Sorry folks, my rant for the day because of that gateway.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene> is up!
Succumb to natural tendencies. Be hateful and boring.

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 08:41:44 -0700, pandora.koura wrote:

> If i ditch google groups what application can i use in Windows 8 to post
> to this newsgroup and what newsserver too?

Google is your friend. Do try to find the answer to your questions before
asking here.

Search for "usenet news reader application". Or use Thunderbird.

For the news server, you use your ISP's newserver, if they offer one, or
Gmane, or any of dozens of commercial news providers who will give you
access to one for a small fee.


--
Steven

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:06:30 -0700, pandora.koura wrote:


>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

> What is pytho...@python.org how can i post there?

It's the same thing it was when I posted the above URL a few hours ago.

Didn't you follow the link before? It has instructions there.



--
Steven

[Mark Lawrence]

On 16/09/2012 16:54, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:40 AM, <pandor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Cant it be written more easily as:
>> date = (datetime.datetime.utcnow(+2)
>>
>> i know this is not thhe correct syntax but it just needs a way to add GMT+2 hours since utc=gmt
>

> I've dithered about whether to open this can of worms or let sleeping
> dogs lie, and I finally decided to make some metaphor potpourri.
>
> Simple UTC offsets are not the same thing as local time. There are a
> variety of other considerations, but the main one is Daylight Robbery
> Time, where every government wants to put its own stamp on things by
> fiddling with the DST rules a bit. Most places will move their clocks
> an hour forward for summer and then back for winter. But!
>
> * Some places are sensible and don't have DST at all (eg
> Australia/Queensland, America/Arizona)
> * Northern hemisphere summer corresponds to southern hemisphere
> winter, and vice versa
> * Everyone has a different way of defining the boundaries of summer and winter
> * And just to confuse us all, Irish Standard Time is used in summer,
> and they *subtract* an hour for winter time!
>
> The only way to handle timezones correctly and keep yourself even
> marginally sane is to hand the job on to somebody else. I dodged the
> whole issue by letting our Postgres database handle everything for us
> (date/time formats, timezones, the lot), and having our internal
> systems all just work in UTC. You'll likely find it easiest to do the
> same thing with a Python library.
>
> Just don't try to pretend to yourself that Greece uses GMT+2, because
> it's not that simple. For one thing, it's currently summer there...
>
> ChrisA
>

I guess that Double British Summer Time made things twice as difficult?

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

[Mark Lawrence]

I'm on Windows Vista and read many Python mailing lists with Thunderbird
via gmane.

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

[Dave Angel]

On 09/16/2012 07:56 AM, οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ wrote:
> οΏ½οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½, 16 οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ 2012 2:34:34 οΏ½.οΏ½. UTC+3, οΏ½ οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½ Steven D'Aprano οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½:
>> <snip>
>>
>> No. That's not how mailing lists work. Every email gets posted to all
>> members, unless they go onto "No Mail", in which case they get no emails
>> at all.
>>
>> You are not paying anything for the help you are receiving, except to
>> give your own time in return to help others. We are all volunteers here,
>> and nobody is going to force you to volunteer in return, but if everyone
>> only received threads that they initiated, nobody would see new threads
>> and nobody would get any answers at all.
>>
>>
>> You are right, i will set to receive them all.
>>
>> But i dont know what to do about the thing you say that i double post.
>> I use google groups i dont intentionally post to python-list too.
>> How can i avoid that and just only post to python google group?

Once you get the emails from the official mailing list, posting a reply
is straightforward. Do a reply-all for most messages, perhaps deleting
some of the to or cc addresses depending on a specific message. Then
trim the parts you're not responding to, and put your new remarks after
the context you are responding to. It won't double-post.

For new messages, simply address a new message to pytho...@python.org

Depending on your mail reader, you can see the messages in threads,
except for all the people who bust up the threads. When you get to that
point, post a new thread specifying your email program and OS, and
somebody will probably volunteer to help you get it customized (though
perhaps the actual discussion for that would be offline).

For anybody else listening, the way I avoid seeing the google-groups
double-post is to automatically delete any message that's got a cc to
google-groups. That way I only get the OTHER copy of the message.



--

DaveA

[Mayuresh Kathe]

On Sunday 16 September 2012 09:11 PM, pandor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Τη Κυριακή, 16 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 4:18:50 μ.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Ben Finney έγραψε:
>> Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>>
>>
>
>
>>
>> It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to
>>
>> Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious
>>
>> than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except
>>
>> use something else.
>>
>>
>>
>> Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long
>>
>> time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of
>>
>> us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop
>>
>> using Google Groups.
>>
>

> If i ditch google groups what application can i use in Windows 8 to post to
> this newsgroup and what newsserver too?
>

Thunderbird 15 as the newsgroup client and Unison Access as the news
server (it's a paid service).

[alex23]

On Sep 16, 11:18 pm, Ben Finney <ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long
> time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of
> us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop
> using Google Groups.

Agreed. While it was painful but usable in its previous form, the "new
Groups" is an incomprehensible mess of pointlessness and shittery.
It's still possible to use the old theme for the time being, which
does avoid the double-up posts, but it's pretty clear Google aren't
listening to any feedback about Groups whatsoever.

I've really NFI why they bought DejaNews only to turn it into such a
broken service.

[Roy Smith]

In article
<6c732de0-b10f-4d40...@rg9g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

They didn't buy the service. They bought the data. Well, they really
bought both, but the data is all they wanted.

[alex23]

On Sep 17, 10:55 am, Roy Smith <r...@panix.com> wrote:
> They didn't buy the service.  They bought the data.  Well, they really
> bought both, but the data is all they wanted.

I thought they'd taken most of the historical data offline now too?

Either way, it was the sort of purchase-and-whither approach you
usually see Yahoo take.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 16 September 2012 12:29:39 pandor...@gmail.com did opine:

> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> > email client to pytho...@python.org
>
> wait a minute! i must use my ISP's news server and then post o
> comp.lang.python no?

No.

> What is pytho...@python.org how can i post there?

Install thunderbird. Its a real email agent, even on a windows box.

But first you must subscribe as I discussed in a previous msg.

Cheers, Gene
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene> is up!

Q: How was Thomas J. Watson buried?
A: 9 edge down.

[Matteo Boscolo]

Hi All,

I'm facing some trouble with a win32com application, it seems, that some
com object (win32com) are still in the gc.get_objetc() list, even if I
set to non the objetc and I'm out of the scope of that objects.

What I'm try to do is to remove this object from the list. but I do
know how..

the .__del__() method dose not work on this object...

there is someone that can give me some help on this ?

Regards,
Matteo

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:42:56 +0200, Matteo Boscolo wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'm facing some trouble with a win32com application, it seems, that some
> com object (win32com) are still in the gc.get_objetc() list, even if I
> set to non the objetc and I'm out of the scope of that objects.

You can't set an object to None. An object is itself. It is *always*
itself, you can't tell Python to turn it into None.

What you can do is re-bind a *name* from an object to None.

Suppose you say:

x = Spam()

then there is a binding between name "x" and the object Spam(), which I
will call "spam" from now on. When you then later say:

x = None

this does *not* convert spam into None, what it does is cuts the binding
between name "x" and spam, and binds the name "x" to None. The object
spam still exists.

If there are no other references to spam, then the garbage collector
automatically destroys the spam object. But if there are still references
to the spam object, then it will remain alive, and the gc will keep
tracking it.

References can include:

* name bindings: x = spam

* list items: mylist.append(spam)

* dict keys and values: mydict[spam] = 42; mydict["key"] = spam

* attributes: myobject.attr = spam

* default values to function parameters: def foo(a, b=spam): ...

and probably others.

> What I'm try to do is to remove this object from the list. but I do
> know how..

If you have a com object being tracked by the garbage collector, that
means that it is still in use, somewhere in your program. You can't just
tell the gc to stop tracking it. You need to find where you still have a
reference to the object.

> the .__del__() method dose not work on this object...

The __del__ method does not delete an object. Remember, objects are only
deleted when there are no references to it. Otherwise you could have some
code that tries to use a deleted object, and you would get a system crash
or BSOD. The __del__ method is called only when the object is *just
about* to be deleted.

In general, you should avoid using __del__ methods. They interfere with
the garbage collector's ability to resolve cycles. The problem is, what
happens if an object contains a link to itself?

x = []
x.append(x)

Such cycles could be very deep:

a = []; b = []; c = []; d = []; ... y = []; z = []
a.append(b)
b.append(c)
c.append(d)
...
y.append(z)
z.append(a) ### a cycle appears ###

Now you have a cycle of 26 objects, each of which indirectly refers to
itself.

Normally, Python's garbage collector can recognise such a cycle and
safely break it, which then allows all of the objects to be deleted. But
if you add a __del__ method to *even one* object, Python can no longer
safely break the cycle, and so the objects will remain alive even when
you can no longer reach them from your code.

So, in general, avoid the __del__ method unless you absolutely need it.


--
Steven

[Jamie Paul Griffin]

[ Joel Goldstick wrote on Sun 16.Sep'12 at 11:57:56 -0400 ]

> email client to pytho...@python.org

If using Windows I would certainly use Thunderbird or even slrn news reader - I believe there is a version for Windows. Or you could install Interix subsystem which provides UNIX tools for Windows 7 Ultimate or Professional. You'd then have some more choice of MUA client or newsreader client in that environment. Cygwin is another alternative.

UNIX systems just use whatever email client you like and subscribe to the list as explained several times by others. Fortunately for me I've got procmail deleting double posts because they are annoying.

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 12:16 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp....@pearwood.info> wrote:
> The __del__ method does not delete an object. Remember, objects are only
> deleted when there are no references to it. Otherwise you could have some
> code that tries to use a deleted object, and you would get a system crash
> or BSOD.

There is a conceptually viable alternative: destroy an object
immediately and force all references to it to become some sentinel
value (eg None). Python currently doesn't have this, but it would be
rather convenient at times. Could be part of a construct like 'with'
to say "make this, use it, and then dispose of it".

ChrisA

[Matteo Boscolo]

from my gc.get_object()
I extract the sub system of the object that I would like to delete:

this is the object:
Class name
win32com.gen_py.F4503A16-F637-11D2-BD55-00500400405Bx0x1x0.ITDProperty.ITDProperty
that is traked and the reference are:
get_referents >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
RefCount 5
<type 'tuple'> >>>> (<class win32com.client.DispatchBaseClass at
0x026ACB58>,)
RefCount 5
<type 'dict'> >>>> '__int__': <function __int__ at 0x03A50770>,
'__module__': 'win32com.gen_py.F45
RefCount 8
<type 'str'> >>>> ITDProperty
RefCount 9
<type 'function'> >>>> <function __getattr__ at 0x026C2630>
RefCount 9
<type 'function'> >>>> <function __setattr__ at 0x026C2670>
get_referrers >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
RefCount 15
<type 'dict'> >>>> 'python_version': 34014192, 'defaultUnnamedArg':
<PyOleEmpty object at 0x00447E
RefCount 6
<type 'list'> >>>> <class
win32com.gen_py.F4503A16-F637-11D2-BD55-00500400405Bx0x1x0.ITDProperty.I
RefCount 4
<type 'list'> >>>> (u'ItemsListCreator', u'trick', u'pVal'), (3, 49,
'0', None), (16393, 10, None,
RefCount 4
<type 'frame'> >>>> <frame object at 0x029721D8>
RefCount 7
<type 'frame'> >>>> <frame object at 0x02760148>
RefCount 5
<type 'dict'> >>>> '{39AAEA35-F71F-11D2-BD59-00500400405B}': <class
win32com.gen_py.F4503A16-F637-

how can I understand how to clean up this situation or were are the
references that I need to delete ?

From the cad non python script I call an in process python com object,
and before coming back to the cad application I need to clean up all com
reference, because if I do not do that I corrupt the cad application .

so I urgently need to clean up all reference before coming back to the
cad application.

any idea?

regards,
Matteo

Il 17/09/2012 18:09, Chris Angelico ha scritto:
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 12:16 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp....@pearwood.info> wrote:

>> The __del__ method does not delete an object. Remember, objects are only
>> deleted when there are no references to it. Otherwise you could have some
>> code that tries to use a deleted object, and you would get a system crash
>> or BSOD.

[Oscar Benjamin]

http://mg.pov.lt/objgraph/
http://mg.pov.lt/blog/hunting-python-memleaks.html

I have previously used the code from one of the links above to hunt down a
reference leak. It gives a graphical view of the alive references which helps
to locate the source of the ref leak.

Oscar

[Robert Miles]

On 9/16/2012 8:18 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done.
>>
>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>
> It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to
> Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious
> than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except
> use something else.
>

> Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long
> time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of
> us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop
> using Google Groups.

Could this mean that Google wants all the spam posted through Google
Groups to look obnoxious to the rest of Usenet that the spammers will go
elsewhere?

Robert Miles

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-09-16, Ben Finney <ben+p...@benfinney.id.au> wrote:

> ???????????????? ???????????? <nikos...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done.
>>
>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>
> It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to
> Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious
> than before.

Well, that's certainly something of an accomplishment. I've become
somewhat suspicious that Google Groups is Google's deliberate attempt
to kill off Usenet and non-Google-controlled mailing lists. Nothing
can be that bad by accident. Except perhaps certain Microsoft
products.... make that most Microsoft products.

> And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except
> use something else.
>
> Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long
> time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of
> us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop
> using Google Groups.

I told my news client years ago to filter out anything posted from
Google Groups -- and I know I'm not alone. If one wants the best
chance of getting a question answered, using something other than
Google Groups is indeed a good idea.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! The PILLSBURY DOUGHBOY
at is CRYING for an END to
gmail.com BURT REYNOLDS movies!!

[Walter Hurry]

On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:07:09 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:

> I told my news client years ago to filter out anything posted from
> Google Groups -- and I know I'm not alone. If one wants the best chance
> of getting a question answered, using something other than Google Groups
> is indeed a good idea.

+1

[Hank Gay]

On 2012-09-21 15:07:09 +0000, Grant Edwards said:
>
> I told my news client years ago to filter out anything posted from
> Google Groups -- and I know I'm not alone. If one wants the best
> chance of getting a question answered, using something other than
> Google Groups is indeed a good idea.

What's that filter look like?

--Hank

[Grant Edwards]

Score:: =-9999
Message-ID: .*googlegroups.com

--
Grant

[Robert Miles]

On 9/16/2012 8:18 AM, Ben Finney wrote:

> Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done.
>>
>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>
> It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to
> Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious

> than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except
> use something else.

You're probably referring to their change in the way they handle
end-of-lines, which is now incompatible with most newsreaders,
especially with multiple levels of quoting.

The incompatibility tends to insert a blank line after every line.
With multiple levels of quoting, this gives blank line groups that
often roughly double in size for every level of quoting.

Robert Miles

[Robert Miles]

On 9/16/2012 10:44 AM, pandor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Whaen i tried to post just now by hitting sumbit, google groups told me that the following addresssed has benn found in this thread! i guess is used them all to notify everything!
>
> cdf072b2-7359-4417...@googlegroups.com
> mailman.774.13477359...@python.org
> nikos...@gmail.com

When you try to post anything to a newsgroup, they try
to use their method of preventing email spammers from
getting email addresses by complaining about any email
addresses that look like the could be valid.

If you want to make the post compatible with their
method, select the option to edit the post when they
offer it, and change the last three characters before
each @ in an email address to three periods (...).
The submit should then work.

[Robert Miles]

On 9/16/2012 8:14 PM, alex23 wrote:
> On Sep 17, 10:55 am, Roy Smith <r...@panix.com> wrote:
>> They didn't buy the service. They bought the data. Well, they really
>> bought both, but the data is all they wanted.
>
> I thought they'd taken most of the historical data offline now too?

Some of it, but they still had my newsgroups posts from 15 years ago
the last time I looked.

They appear to have taken most of any Fidonet data offline, though.

They appear to be taking some of the spam and other abuse offline
after it's reported by at least two people, but rather slowly and
not keeping up with the amount that's posted.

For those of you running Linux: You may want to look into whether
NoCeM is compatible with your newsreader and your version of Linux.
It checks newsgroups news.lists.filters and alt.nocem.misc for lists
of spam posts, and will automatically hide them for you. Not available
for other operating systems, though, except possibly Unix.

NoCeM
http://www.cm.org/nocem.html

bleachbot
http://home.httrack.net/~nocem/

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-09-16, ???????? ?????? <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.

Learn something else. Google Groups is seriously and permanently
broken, and all posts from Google Groups are filtered out and ignored
by many people (including myself -- I only saw this because somebody
else replied to it).

IMO, the best option is to point a newsreader an an NNTP server that
carries comp.lang.python (gname.org also provides an NNTP server that
gateways to the mailing list). Pointing a newsreader at gmane's NNTP
server is also an excellent option.

If all you can do is run a browwer, then I suggest using gmane.org:

http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general

> Whats a mailing list?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_mailing_list
http://www.python.org/community/lists/

The python mailing list is gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup
comp.lang.python (which is where I read/post from):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet

> Can i get responses to my mail instead of constantly check the google
> groups site?

Yes. You can subscribe directly to the list (which means you'll
receive a _lot_ of e-mail every day).

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! If I felt any more
at SOPHISTICATED I would DIE
gmail.com of EMBARRASSMENT!

[ru...@yahoo.com]

On 10/30/2012 11:07 PM, Robert Miles wrote:> On 9/16/2012 8:18 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
>> Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done.
>>>
>>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>>
>> It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to
>> Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious
>> than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except
>> use something else.

You (BF) are wrong that there "doesn't seem to be much its users
can do..." and I explained why previously. However, since you have
advocated killfiling anyone using GG (which I do) you probably didn't
see my post. If you choose intentional ignorance that is your choice
but you do a disservice to the community by advocating that others
do the same.

(Officer, I don't deserve this ticket because I couldn't see the
traffic signal was red; I had my eyes closed. :-)

> You're probably referring to their change in the way they handle
> end-of-lines, which is now incompatible with most newsreaders,
> especially with multiple levels of quoting.

It's a minor pain to fix this when posting, but

1. It is fixable (and previous post of mine gave a couple ways)
2. The double spacing is obvious in Google's compose window
so if one posts anyway, it is a matter of laziness.

[ru...@yahoo.com]

On 10/31/2012 09:11 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:> On 2012-09-16, ???????? ?????? <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>
> Learn something else. Google Groups is seriously and permanently
> broken, and all posts from Google Groups are filtered out and ignored
> by many people (including myself -- I only saw this because somebody
> else replied to it).

"Broken"? Yes. But so is every piece of software in one way
or another. Thunderbird is one of the most perpetually buggy
pierces of software I have ever used on a continuing basis.

"Seriously"? That's pretty subjective. I manage to use it
without major problems so it couldn't be that bad. I posted
previously on how to use it without the double posts or the
double spacing.

"Permenantly"? Your ability to foretell the future leaves me
in awe. :-)

Feel free to filter whatever you want but be aware than in
doing so you risk missing information that could help you
avoid disseminating erroneous info. Of course, carrying out
some kind of private war against Google Groups may be more
important to you than that...

[Mark Lawrence]

On 31/10/2012 19:35, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 10/31/2012 09:11 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:> On 2012-09-16, ???????? ?????? <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:.

>
> "Broken"? Yes. But so is every piece of software in one way
> or another. Thunderbird is one of the most perpetually buggy
> pierces of software I have ever used on a continuing basis
>

Please provide evidence that Thunderbird is buggy. I use it quite
happily, don't have problems, and have never seen anybody complaining
about it.

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:32:57 -0700, rurpy wrote:

[...]

>> You're probably referring to their change in the way they handle
>> end-of-lines, which is now incompatible with most newsreaders,
>> especially with multiple levels of quoting.
>
> It's a minor pain to fix this when posting, but
>
> 1. It is fixable (and previous post of mine gave a couple ways) 2. The
> double spacing is obvious in Google's compose window
> so if one posts anyway, it is a matter of laziness.

I don't killfile merely for posting from Gmail or Google Groups, but
regarding your second point, it has seemed to me for some years now that
Gmail is the new Hotmail, which was the new AOL. Whenever there is an
inane, lazy, mind-numbingly stupid question or post, chances are
extremely high that the sender has a Gmail address.



--
Steven

[Arnaud Delobelle]

On 31 October 2012 22:33, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp....@pearwood.info> wrote:
[...]

> I don't killfile merely for posting from Gmail

And we are humbly grateful.

--
Arnaud

[Robert Miles]

On 10/31/2012 2:35 PM, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 10/31/2012 09:11 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:> On 2012-09-16, ???????? ?????? <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>>
>> Learn something else. Google Groups is seriously and permanently
>> broken, and all posts from Google Groups are filtered out and ignored
>> by many people (including myself -- I only saw this because somebody
>> else replied to it).
>

> "Seriously"? That's pretty subjective. I manage to use it
> without major problems so it couldn't be that bad. I posted
> previously on how to use it without the double posts or the
> double spacing.

If you're using it for reasonable purposes, you won't encounter
its worst flaw. It's much too easy for spammers to use for
posting spam. I'd estimate that about 99% of the world's
newsgroups spam in English is posted through Google Groups.

[Robert Miles]

Why should they complain about it in this newsgroup?

Most of the people who complain about it know that complaining
in newsgroup mozilla.support.thunderbird is much more likely
to get any problems fixed. Rather few newsgroups servers are
allowed to carry that newsgroup; news.mozilla.org is one of them.

The newsgroups section of Thunderbird seems to have more bugs
than the email section, partly because there are more volunteers
interested in working on the email section.

[Mark Lawrence]

On 01/11/2012 00:23, Robert Miles wrote:
> On 10/31/2012 4:38 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 31/10/2012 19:35, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On 10/31/2012 09:11 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:> On 2012-09-16, ????????
>>> ?????? <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:.
>>>
>>> "Broken"? Yes. But so is every piece of software in one way
>>> or another. Thunderbird is one of the most perpetually buggy
>>> pierces of software I have ever used on a continuing basis
>>>
>>
>> Please provide evidence that Thunderbird is buggy. I use it quite
>> happily, don't have problems, and have never seen anybody complaining
>> about it.
>
> Why should they complain about it in this newsgroup?

I'm reading all the Python *MAILING LISTS* that I'm interested in with
Thunderbird. Here. Now. So do a lot of other people. If they weren't
happy with it, they'd be stating so here when this type of discussion
came up.

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

[Jamie Paul Griffin]

/ Robert Miles wrote on Wed 31.Oct'12 at 0:39:02 -0500 /

> For those of you running Linux: You may want to look into whether
> NoCeM is compatible with your newsreader and your version of Linux.
> It checks newsgroups news.lists.filters and alt.nocem.misc for lists
> of spam posts, and will automatically hide them for you. Not available
> for other operating systems, though, except possibly Unix.

Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.

[Jamie Paul Griffin]

/ Steven D'Aprano wrote on Wed 31.Oct'12 at 22:33:16 +0000 /

That's a bit harsh but then, sadly there's some truth in it. I subscribe to a number of technical mailing lists, like that of my OS OpenBSD and the problem doesn't exist there whether they use Gmail or Hotmail, etc, or not. This and the tutor python list are the two I have the most problems with formatting. Some people just don't seem to give a shit about sending horrid html and other irritating formatted mail in spite of being asked not to do so.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-10-31, ru...@yahoo.com <ru...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 10/31/2012 09:11 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:> On 2012-09-16, ???????? ?????? <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>>
>> Learn something else. Google Groups is seriously and permanently
>> broken, and all posts from Google Groups are filtered out and ignored
>> by many people (including myself -- I only saw this because somebody
>> else replied to it).
>

> Feel free to filter whatever you want but be aware than in
> doing so you risk missing information that could help you
> avoid disseminating erroneous info. Of course, carrying out
> some kind of private war against Google Groups may be more
> important to you than that...

Based on past experience, the chances of useful information being
posted via Google Groups is very small. The benefit of avoiding all
the spam and garbage the comes from that source is more than worth the
small risk of missing something worthwhile.

Note that I'm _not_ talking about people posting to the mailing list
using Gmail -- only people posting via the Google Groups web UI.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Four thousand
at different MAGNATES, MOGULS
gmail.com & NABOBS are romping in my
gothic solarium!!

[ru...@yahoo.com]

I hesitate to respond to this because thunderbird bugs are really
OT, but since you insist...

A few years ago started keeping a list TB problems I encountered.
I stopped maintaining it a year or so ago.
It is a mixture of bugs, misfeatures, and things I couldn't
figure out, etc. Many have been fixed in later versions.
Nevertheless, it illustrates *my* experience with TB.
Note that despite the problems, I still use TB in some
contexts.

Different apps have different bugs/(mis)features and every
person has their own weighting factors on those bugs.
End result is different people prefer different apps for
different purposes (and some of us find GG the least worst
choice for posting here.)

====
* In Search dialog clicked on the Search in folder dropdown after
an earlier search and TB crashed (disappeared along with the
new message I was editing.) [3.0.1]

* Search for japanese text in body no longer works (never finds
text even when it exists). [3.0.1] Used to work.

* Each mail message displays useless header info that uses 25%
of the available vertical space.

* When editing a reply message, typing a return at eol results in
two blank lines inserted.

* When editing message, siometimes edit cursor disappears
tho editing still seems to work normally.

* Requires voodoo to create hmtl new message when default is
plain text or visa versa. Have to hold shift key while clicking
"write" button. Shift while choosing "new", "reply", etc in
menu doesn't work.

* Frequently, clinking on a usenet newsgroup results in TB freeze.
Only solution is to remove group and re-add later. (Problem
since 2.x days.)

* Frequently after an apparently normal shutdown, attempt to restart
results in "TB is already running" error.

* Some folders in the folder tree view are greyed out and not
selectable even though they have no visible different properties
than selectable ones. Don't know how they got that way.

* Clicking on a folder in the folder tree pane results in a pop-
up dialog "this folder is not selectable" that has to be dismissed,
even though one is trying to get it's properties, or is selecting
it to create a subfolder.

* Messages change from "read" to "unread" in folders at random when
folder is accessed, or even when it is not accessed. [gone in 3.0.3?]

* Interminttently, when I click a usenet message to view it,
the contents pane remains blank. Contents of that message
remain blank foreever. [new with 3.0.1].

* When TB main window closed while editing an email, can no longer
save the email, even if the TB main window is reopened.

* Counts of new messages in usenet groups are often wildly high.

* When opening up a usenet server, status bar reports "no new
messages on server" even though TB then updates the groups
with the new messages that *are* on the server. [new in 3.0.1]

* After upgrade to TB-3.0, opening a usenet server results not
only in the group being scanned for new messages in each group
(as before) but also the headers for all those new messages
being downloaded (slow on a dialup connection and a waste of
time if I don't intend to read anything in that group).
No obvious way to revert to original behaviour.

* Even tho the number of unread messages listed beside a usenet
group in the folder pane is less than the download limit, I
sometimes get pop-up asking how many messages to download,
when I access the group. (side effect of above problem I think.)

* Sometimes TB downloads two copies of each header.

* When I compress folders, get a series of several dozen pop-
up messages (each requiring a click on "OK") telling me
that foplder "xx" is not selectable.

* Copy-paste from TB to other app fails if TB is closed
before the paste -- the paste buffer appears empty [TB-3.0b4]

* Copy paste fails by removing text (forgot if it is just the
copied text or other text) in the TB message when pasted
somewhere else. [TB-2?]

* After upgrade to TB-3.0x, i no longer see a way to create a
new imap subfolder. Had to create it using MSOE.

* After upgrade to TB-3.0x double clicking on attached .jpg image
no longer opens it -- only option is to save and open outside
of TB. phfft.

* HTF do you change the font size for plain text message composition?
Prefs has a setting for html but...

* search of body for multiple "anded" text never ends if one of
the search boxes is empty.

* Search "stop" button doesn't stop search.

* One group frequently, without any action on my part, read thousands
of old articles, showing them as unread, and when I choose one, responds
with "article expired" message. (tb-3.0.4)

* Sometimes clicking a group in tree pane causes TB freeze. (This is different
than similar problem listed above in that above problem happens when clicking
on article in group, and this problem only requires a tb resart to fix whereas
above problem required unsubscribing/resubscribing group.)

* Sometimes newgroups are colored blue in the tree pane, no idea why.

* Sometimes when a message is dragged to a different folder, the
message pane continue to display the message contents although the
message highlighted in the message list pane is a different one.
(tb-3.0.4)

* Every time I access a particular news group, TB seems create two
connections to it, the second one times out after 5 minutes or so
but keeps the progress bar active and the status bar displaying
"no new messages". Deleting and recreating acount does not fix.
(tb-3.0.4, 3.1.10)

* Save as html page gives Gnome "open" dialog, click on directory
button to save in parent directory, click save, file is saved in
original directory.

* Lately when TB is started, there is one account that is always
displayed expanded even though it was collapsed when TB was last
shutdown. (tb-13.0).

[ru...@yahoo.com]

On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
> Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
> UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
> should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and
> Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news
> reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a
> good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I
> can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.

Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?

"serious" is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious
programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
languages like Python, but should be developing their skills
with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.

[ru...@yahoo.com]

On 11/01/2012 06:09 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:> On 2012-10-31, ru...@yahoo.com <ru...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 10/31/2012 09:11 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:> On 2012-09-16, ???????? ?????? <nikos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know.
>>>
>>> Learn something else. Google Groups is seriously and permanently
>>> broken, and all posts from Google Groups are filtered out and ignored
>>> by many people (including myself -- I only saw this because somebody
>>> else replied to it).
>>
>> Feel free to filter whatever you want but be aware than in
>> doing so you risk missing information that could help you
>> avoid disseminating erroneous info. Of course, carrying out
>> some kind of private war against Google Groups may be more
>> important to you than that...
>
> Based on past experience, the chances of useful information being
> posted via Google Groups is very small. The benefit of avoiding all
> the spam and garbage the comes from that source is more than worth the
> small risk of missing something worthwhile.
>
> Note that I'm _not_ talking about people posting to the mailing list
> using Gmail -- only people posting via the Google Groups web UI.

Your experience is that most GG posts are junk but not
most Gmail posts. And yet someone else posted that Gmail
posts are the junk ones. So I wonder how accurate these
evaluations are.

In either case, while there has been some spam and garbage
posts in c.l.p in the past, I haven't seen very many lately.
And even in the past, they seemed pretty recognizable to me
and easily skipped over.

As for stupid questions, undesired formatting etc, I seldom
look at the message headers so I never noticed whether they
are mostly from GG or Gmail. But then again I never found
it hard to glance at a post and move on if I didn't want to
read it. YMMV.

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 9:08 AM, <ru...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>> Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
>> UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
>> should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and
>> Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news
>> reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a
>> good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I
>> can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.
>
> Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?

It's not; also, so long as Python maintains an official Windows build,
this list/group will be fielding questions about Windows. But there's
still good reason to grab a Linux.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idp29970256

> "serious" is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious
> programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
> serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
> languages like Python, but should be developing their skills
> with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.

And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#,
and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or
COBOL. Or assembly language. Let 'em. Meanwhile I'll have demonstrable
code done while they're still fiddling around with details, because my
languages (including, though by no means limited to, Python) do most
of the work for me.

ChrisA

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 10:32:08 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#,
> and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or
> COBOL.

Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and
especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern,
advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.




[1] "Ancient" is a frame of mind, not a chronological state.


--
Steven

[Roy Smith]

In article <50932111$0$29967$c3e8da3$5496...@news.astraweb.com>,

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp....@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and
> especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern,
> advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.

Does anybody actually use D for anything?

I looked at the language a while ago. There seemed to be a lot in it
that made sense. Does it get any real use, or is it just an interesting
research project?

[Rhodri James]

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 01:25:37 -0000, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp....@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and
> especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern,
> advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.

Advanced? Huh. I have here a language that does exactly what I want
without all that messy syntax nonsense. I call it "Research Assistant."

--
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses

[Jamie Paul Griffin]

/ ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /

> On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
> > Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
> > UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
> > should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and
> > Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news
> > reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a
> > good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I
> > can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.

> Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?

I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time.

> "serious" is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious
> programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
> serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
> languages like Python, but should be developing their skills
> with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.

That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe Python as a "script-kiddie" language. It's extremely powerful and modern. So there ;-P lol

[Jamie Paul Griffin]

/ ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:00:48 -0700 /

[ ... ]

With a list of problems like that maybe the time spent on learning how to use a Usenet client or mua that is properly written would be worthwhile. Personally I haven't used the Google Groups interface, and most likely never will so I can't really comment on how it performs or how nice it is to use but if you're happy with it that's the main thing. But you can't deny that it does cause irritating problems for other people trying to read information sent from it.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-11-02, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp....@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 10:32:08 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#,
>> and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or
>> COBOL.
>
> Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and
> especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern,
> advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.

Don't forget Smalltalk! Old, but always modern and advanced...

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! ! Everybody out of
at the GENETIC POOL!
gmail.com

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin <ja...@kode5.net> wrote:
> / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /

>
>> On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>> > Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
>> > UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
>> > should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and
>> > Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news
>> > reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a
>> > good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I
>> > can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.
>
>> Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?
>

> I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time.

I am comfortable with both Windows and Unix systems, and I do not find
that either environment is particularly more effective for software
engineering or helps me to be more productive than the other. My job
has me developing Windows software, so I use Windows at work since at
the very least I require it for testing and debugging. I could use
virtualization to run Unix as well, and I have known some who do, but
my philosophy is: why waste time dealing with two distinct
environments where only one is required?

Cheers,
Ian

[ru...@yahoo.com]

On 11/02/2012 03:36 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
> / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /
>
>> On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>>> Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
>>> UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
>>> should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering
>>> and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent
>>> news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn
>>> is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed
>>> out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc.
>>> now.
>
>> Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?
>
> I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for
> serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in
> whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of
> computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for
> itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science
> based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes,
> strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems.
> Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a
> casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not
> necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they
> can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques

> and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windo ws at

> all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time.

Wow, that makes me feel like I am back in the 1990s!
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. :-)

>> "serious" is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious
>> programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
>> serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
>> languages like Python, but should be developing their skills with
>> serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.
>
> That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different
> purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she
> needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic
> shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other
> needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe
> Python as a "script-kiddie" language. It's extremely powerful and
> modern. So there ;-P lol

Right. I happen to agree with you and was just repeating
an elitist attitude I've often heard where what *I* use
is for *serious* business and what *they* use is just
for playing around, for those without as much technical
competence as me, etc.

Without a quantitative definition of "serious" and some
objective evidence supporting it, your opinion that unix
is more "serious" than windows is as narrow-minded as my
friends' opinion (which was the point I was trying to
make and which you seem to have missed.)

I don't particularly like Windows and am able to mostly
avoid it these days, but think you should realize that
describing it as not for *serious* use is going irritate
some people and make you look like you are not able to
make objective judgements.

(I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll
attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being
an age-old means of trolling.)

[ru...@yahoo.com]

On 11/02/2012 03:57 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
> / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:00:48 -0700 /

>> [...list of Thunderbird problems...]

>
> With a list of problems like that maybe the time spent on learning
> how to use a Usenet client or mua that is properly written would be
> worthwhile.

And that would be which one exactly? I have tried a few
other mail and usenet clients, and as I said, indeed the
point of my post was, they *all* have their own set of
bugs, misfeatures and missing features.

> Personally I haven't used the Google Groups interface,
> and most likely never will so I can't really comment on how it
> performs or how nice it is to use but if you're happy with it that's
> the main thing. But you can't deny that it does cause irritating
> problems for other people trying to read information sent from it.

I can and do deny that. I certainly acknowledge that
GG contributes to such posts, but naive users of GG and
readers who are too easily irritated are two other major
contributing factors.

[Mark Lawrence]

Does Unix now have clustering, or is it still behind VMS aka Very Much
Safer?

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

[Bob Martin]

Real programmers (can) write in assembler.

[Dave Angel]

On 11/03/2012 03:44 AM, Bob Martin wrote:
> <snip>

>>
> Real programmers (can) write in assembler.

Real programmers can (and have) write in hex/octal or binary. For my
first project at a permanent job, I had to write code for a machine with
no assembler. Near the end of the project, I wrote a text editor and
(cross) assembler for it, because maintaining the source with pen/ink
was getting tedious.

For the DOS world, real programmers have written a "complete" *.com
program using only echo.

--

DaveA

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Dave Angel <d...@davea.name> wrote:
> For the DOS world, real programmers have written a "complete" *.com
> program using only echo.

Only as an exercise. It was satisfying to prove to myself that I could
do it, but pretty useless. Normally I used DEBUG.EXE to build my code
- it has a mini-assembler in it. Incidentally, I used debug as a full
assembler, with a bit of a REXX harness around it - used that to write
OS/2 code in pure assembly, without the bother of, yaknow, getting an
actual assembler. Suddenly things got WAY easier once I got hold of
nasm...

ChrisA

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:24:15 -0400, Dave Angel wrote:

> For the DOS world, real programmers have written a "complete" *.com
> program using only echo.

Echo? Wimps. Real programmers write their code directly on the surface of
the hard drive using only a magnetised needle.


--
Steven

[Jamie Paul Griffin]

/ ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Fri 2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 /

> (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll
> attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being
> an age-old means of trolling.)

No, i'm not a "troll". I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really.