.NET is it being undermined in Cloud?

[Ono Adiohwo]

Hi All,

I received a request from linked in asking if I would join in a discussion as to why .NET is not gaining ground and popularity in Cloud computing. This is especially in terms of using .NET for app development and building cloud computing.

However, it seems that Windows, Linux and Java all tend to be used more in cloud computing especially from a development programming viewpoint. I do not have an in dept knowledge on this subject aspect hence I started this discussion to get your input as to if .NET is being undermined when it comes to building and developing cloud computing in general.

Thanks in advance, as your input and comments would be appreciated.


Regards,
Ono Adiohwo

[Andrew Badera]

.NET is typically employed by risk-averse organizations. Cloud == risk in those same orgs.

Furthermore a lot of the exciting cloud technologies that have come about and become popular have come about thanks to open source. .NET is not strongly linked to open source, though that's improving somewhat.

∞ Andy Badera, .NET-leaning guy
∞ This email is: [ ] bloggable [x] ask first [ ] private
∞ Google me: http://www.google.com/search?q=andrew%20badera

[Larry Cable]

I think there are a number of factors affecting the adoption of .Net in the cloud:

- cost or the underlying platform (the O.S etc)
- availability (Azure being the primary channel, although its available on other clouds)
- openess of the environment and ecosystem

I think the latter is most important; many cloud services etc are first developed for Java and/or Linux, caching, databases (SQL and NoSQL), messaging etc thus the technologies to construct solutions are more readily available, also the vendor support is much broader...

Sent from my iPad

[Brian Gracely]

Part of it may have been the limited success of Microsoft Azure, although advancements like Apprenda's .NET PaaS and the IronFoundry .NET extension to Cloud Foundry may improve how .NET is deployed in cloud environments.

I did a podcast with Sinclair Schuller (Apprenda) a few weeks back to talk about the .NET PaaS market - http://www.thecloudcast.net/2012/01/cloudcast-eps29-apprenda-building-paas.html

BG

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[Adwait Ullal]

 

.Net is primarily used within the enterprise, for intranet applications ... so, moving these applications to the cloud (Azure or otherwise) pose a challenge in terms of identity management as well as integration.

 

Apart from this, management believes that intranet apps are more sensitive hence the reluctance to move these to the cloud too.

 

My $0.02

- Adwait
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Adwait Ullal

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[Erik Sliman]

While .NET is just as feasible on the IaaS world as Java where you license the virtual machine and install what you need on it, usually choosing to pay a bit extra for Windows and other licensed products versus their FOSS counterparts, the PaaS world has a very different cost model. 

In PaaS, the cloud vendor has to pay for all of this licensing themselves, and then pass it on to their customers in a competitive world.  Now, imagine a PaaS platform built on 300,000 virtual machines.  Which is cheaper?  Linux or Windows?  .NET requires Windows.  Java runs great on both. 

Then there is the fact that all measures point to higher demand for Java than .NET in general, independent of the cloud.  Demand drives markets in a free market. 

Is it any wonder that the only .NET PaaS offering then is owned by Microsoft, which is the only company that doesn't have to pay licensing cost for Windows.  Plus, they can change Windows to make their implementation of PaaS work (or at least try).  If you purchase 300,000 copies of Windows, and you run into a snare impacting performance or your ability to upgrade, can you guarantee that Microsoft will release a patch to address your cloud needs? If not, can you change it yourself.  The answer to this last question is No for Windows because it is proprietary closed source; but, Yes for Linux, which has a vibrant cloud computing community. 


Here are the fundamentals I see limiting .NET

--

[Structum]

In the PaaS world, .Net is feasible, and it is pretty successful.. It just that there is not a lo of buzz surrounding it. Windows Azure is not the only  PaaS out there for .Net, AppHarbor (http://appharbor.com) is also a .Net PaaS.  There are other specialty PaaS in .Net like our own Backend Platform as a Service (http://iknode.com), which runs completely on .Net.

I think the problem is not that it is not feasible or cost effective. The problem is really just the people who are moving to the cloud, most of them have expertise in other platforms. Ruby for example is very popular right on the cloud. Developers go with the environment the feel most comfortable. Most .Net developers are usually enterprise developers, and enterprise take a while to make big changes like moving to the cloud.

I think with time, .Net will be as popular as any other platform on the cloud.

Alex.

-  - -- ----  ----------------------------------------- --- -- -   -
Alex Espinoza

blog: http://neonlabs.structum.net/blog/
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[dave corley]

Azure = .NET targeted/revised/re-packaged/priced for public and hybrid PaaS environment. Licensing model more accommodating of SPs. .NET targeted/priced/packaged, as you describe, for enterprise, so biz model is well-suited to most enterprise acquisition environments.

Your point about underlying Windows OS is well-taken. However, while linux acquisition cost may be small in comparison, operating costs are non-zero and dependent upon supporting tools and staff costs. Ive done business with a couple IaaS providers and while both supported a Windows server infrastructure, neither had a service cost premium over that of linux choice.

Are IaaS providers eating any additional costs imposed by Windows or are the rolled-up costs (acquisiiton and operational) roughly equivalent to, or less than, supported linux (e.g. redhat)?

Dave

[Miha Ahronovitz]

Can anyone comment on http://www.uhurusoftware.com/home.aspx ?
There is an Uhuru Group on Google 4300 plus members.

Miha

[Erik Sliman]

On EC2, Amazon clearly passes on the premium for Windows to the customer:

http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/#pricing

E.g., $0.96/hr Windows versus $0.68/hr Linux.

The customer may choose Windows to support their needs, and be willing to pay a premium. 

Because in IaaS there is only a licensing cost when the VMs are created, the vendor's initial costs associated with it are minimal. 

But, in PaaS, where they may need 300,000 OS instances up and running initially, the vendor has to absorb this cost initially, and try to pass it on to the customer over time.  The customer may not perceive the same benefits.  It would certainly not make sense to put Java on Windows when you can put it on Linux in this scenario.

As for staff costs, well, the point of cloud is to minimize staff costs by automating much of your infrastructure.  In theory, your ongoing staffing needs for the infrastructure operations should be limited to replacing failed hardware and adding new hardware periodically to increase capacity.  You'll also need a testing and promotion capability for software updates and upgrades, as well as DR. 

Presuming that you can make hardware expansion equally efficient with both Linux and Windows, your ongoing service costs might be more related to how you handle firmware, hyper-visor, OS and other software platform upgrades.  Overall, I have found Windows updates and upgrades to be more painful and restrictive (e.g., far more reboot requirements coupled with increased DLL version dependencies.)  I don't know for sure if this same pain differential translates when handling it at the cloud level using Microsoft tools; but, I'd be interested in knowing how Microsoft reduced it if they did. 

[Erik Sliman]

Well, much harder to offer a "free" with that model since the vendor has to pay for OS licensing.  I'm sure it played into why their free model has a 30 day limit:

NOTE: This trial PaaS offers NO guarantees of privacy or reliability. Use this trial for testing and debugging purposes only. This account will only be available for 30 days. You can make a request to sup...@uhurusoftware.com to extend your trial.

[David Luu]

Anyone have thoughts on. NET in cloud via Mono & Linux rather than Windows?

[Juan J.]

On Mon, 2012-03-05 at 20:47 -0800, David Luu wrote:
> Anyone have thoughts on. NET in cloud via Mono & Linux rather than
> Windows?

My limited experience is that it's compatible, but you must develop with
Mono otherwise there's a "porting" cost that can be quite high.

It's not just the libraries, it's the language core (ie. a for loop may
behave differently).

Regards,

Juan

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Juan J. Martinez
Development, MEMSET

mail: ju...@memset.com
web: http://www.memset.com/

Memset Ltd., registration number 4504980. 25 Frederick Sanger Road, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YD, UK.

[Adwait Ullal]

Juan,

 

Do you have any concrete examples where the language behaves differently? I understand that some features may be missing, etc due to Microsoft's rapid advancement in the language but discrepancies, I would like to hear.

- Adwait
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Adwait Ullal

w: http://www.adwait.com
p: (408) 898-2581

[Juan J.]

On Thu, 2012-03-08 at 08:57 -0800, Adwait Ullal wrote:
> Juan,
>
> Do you have any concrete examples where the language behaves
> differently? I understand that some features may be missing, etc due
> to Microsoft's rapid advancement in the language but discrepancies, I
> would like to hear.

I'm not an expert in any way, but with Mono 2.0 we found discrepancies
when developing with Mono and then running the code in the equivalent
Microsoft .NET runtime.

If I recall correctly it was related to the modification of items in a
collection inside a loop. Mono runtime was OK with that, Microsoft
runtime crashed.

It was very frustrating because it wasn't documented at all.

If you want to provide PaaS for .NET using Mono, I guess it's even worse
because you're going to run customer applications.