Funk in botttles

[Laura]

Hello,
New to the site so please feel free to point me in the right direction if this has already been discussed.
After bottling I am getting funk in my cider ( brett i assume) which I would like to eliminate. I am aware of sanitation practices and am careful so assuming it is coming in on the fruit since I don't sulfite. Other than using SO2 are there any other ways of not getting Brett growth when I bottle? Any advice on pasteurization once it is in the bottle? Also any comments on sterile filtering and its affect on taste? Open for any and all ideas at this point.
Thank you,
Laura

[Andrew Lea]

Presumably by 'funk' you mean the barnyard aroma of ethyl phenols and related compounds? In ciders these more commonly come from unwanted lactic acid bacteria such as Pediococcus than Brettanomyces. However, both routes are possible and both are controllable by using SO2 appropriate to the pH before and maybe after fermentation. 

Pasteurisation in bottle can also be done, typically taking the bottle contents to 65 degrees C, capping and allowing to cool on their sides naturally. 

Sterile filtration is not practicable for the amateur, because it is impossible to maintain the required aseptic conditions in a domestic setup. In any case to eliminate bacteria you need very tight membranes typically 0.2 microns. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Laura]

Yes thank you, we are past using SO2 before as everything is finishing up fermentation now.
We have tested the new batches of cider for both pediococcus and Brett and they are fine so far.
Besides vigilant sanitation is there anything else to do to avoid anything getting started ( trying to avoid SO2 but may change my mind). What sanitizer to you recommend? Also looking in to steam...
Laura

[Dhruv Jain]

I have the same problem in my dry cider that has undergone MLF and is then bottle carbonated. I use SO2 but since the acidity is low post MLF it hasn't seemed to protect the cider. I have started using chlorinated water to fill the bottles and then rinse the bottles with a solution of malic acid and SO2 (rather than tap water) but still no luck! The bottles carb up nicely BUT after a few months start going bad / funky and gushing when opened.

Thinking in bottle pasteurising (something I was keen on avoiding) is the only sure shot solution.

[Andrew Lea]

I feel you are both  missing the point that the troublesome organisms are in the cider itself. They are originally derived from the fruit. No amount of sanitising of bottles or equipment is going to change that. SO2 with appropriate pH control is about the only thing you can do. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Scrumpy-]

I used White Labs WLP 650 and priming sugar to bottle condition a batch of dry cider this Spring.  It produced good carbonation and a very mild funk that is a nice addition to the flavor profile.  Later, I was told by an acquaintance who brews Lambic beer that Brett will contaminate all of my plastic tools and I will never get rid of it.  He recommended I mark the siphon, wine thief, and plastic drums that I used and keep them separate in the future from any batch I did not want to infect with Brett. Does anyone have any experience with this?

[Dhruv Jain]

Thanks Andrew. I have been lowering my SO2 additions pre-fermentation as I aim for MLF. Post-fermentation (at the time of bottling) the acidity is too low and the 50ppm SO2 probably just protects against oxidation.

So I guess there is no easy solution? If you want MLF then SO2 needs to be low and that leaves the cider open to attack from unwanted lactic acid bacteria. Is then in-bottle pasteurisation the only fool proof and slightly over the top solution?

[Andrew Lea]

Mild funk as you call it in cider is much more likely to be produced by lactic acid bacteria than Brett. So you probably don't have to worry. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 29 Nov 2016, at 13:07, Scrumpy- <strat...@gmail.com> wrote:

I used White Labs WLP 650 and priming sugar to bottle condition a batch of dry cider this Spring.  It produced good carbonation and a very mild funk that is a nice addition to the flavor profile.  Later, I was told by an acquaintance who brews Lambic beer that Brett will contaminate all of my plastic tools and I will never get rid of it.  He recommended I mark the siphon, wine thief, and plastic drums that I used and keep them separate in the future from any batch I did not want to infect with Brett. Does anyone have any experience with this?

--

[Andrew Lea]

Apologies I misunderstood you. I didn't realise that WLP 650 is a Brettanomyces which you have inoculated into  the cider quite deliberately.  Sounds bizarre to me but if it floats your boat ........

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[leverett]

I have run testing (scorpion test ETS lab) on a batch and it is fine for prediococous and brett organisims, do I need to continue testing going forward as fermentation finishes or am I in the clear for developing off flavors? And therefore need  to SO2.

Laura

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:37 AM, Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> wrote:

Mild funk as you call it in cider is much more likely to be produced by lactic acid bacteria than Brett. So you probably don't have to worry. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 29 Nov 2016, at 13:07, Scrumpy- <strat...@gmail.com> wrote:

I used White Labs WLP 650 and priming sugar to bottle condition a batch of dry cider this Spring.  It produced good carbonation and a very mild funk that is a nice addition to the flavor profile.  Later, I was told by an acquaintance who brews Lambic beer that Brett will contaminate all of my plastic tools and I will never get rid of it.  He recommended I mark the siphon, wine thief, and plastic drums that I used and keep them separate in the future from any batch I did not want to infect with Brett. Does anyone have any experience with this?

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/wqTgJm5lw9c/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Lea]

On 29/11/2016 15:33, leverett wrote:
> I have run testing (scorpion test ETS lab) on a batch and it is fine for
> prediococous and brett organisims, do I need to continue testing going
> forward as fermentation finishes or am I in the clear for developing off
> flavors? And therefore need to SO2.

Have you tested for Lactobacillus species? They can also produce what
you call "off-flavours" in cider (which we like in moderation over here).

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK

[leverett]

yes, both Lactobacilius plantarum/casei/mali 10 cells/mL  and Lactobacillius kunkeei <10 cells/mL 

laura

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
--- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/wqTgJm5lw9c/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Lea]

Well lactobacilli are coming up positive so a 'risk' obviously exists. It depends how much they grow and whether they have the requisite enzyme pathways to give the flavours you don't like. Are you sure of those figures? 10 cfu/ml is a very low detection limit by classical techniques. In my day, 10^2 per ml was the detection limit but things may have moved on a bit now. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[maulikv...@gmail.com]

Quick check of the ETS scorpion test webpage at https://www.etslabs.com/library/27 shows that indeed, they claim to quantify spoilage microbes down to 10 cells/mL. Of course, as a result, the test is not inexpensive, either ($120/ sample).

Maulik Trivedi

Lawrence, KS

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[leverett]

yes I am sure of the figures- did spend the money- so now I should be looking for the requisite enzyme pathways? and those would be.....?

Laura

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/wqTgJm5lw9c/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Lea]

Well they are the pathways that convert the non volatile hydroxycinnamates into volatile alkyl phenols. Some of them are mentioned here https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51569282_Screening_of_representative_cider_yeasts_and_bacteria_for_volatile_phenol-production_ability

But there are no ways to analyse them outside of a very specialist research laboratory and not in real life ciders. The easiest way to minimise your risk is to use SO2. There is only so far that screening can take you and I don't believe it is currently possible to screen against the risk  of alkyl phenol production in unsulphited ciders. The type of PCR screening which you had done will ID groups of organisms but doesn't have the capacity to predict their actual behaviour. Cider science is nowhere near that advanced. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.