lumpy cider conundrum.

[Devon Ben (Green man cider)]

Hi All

strange thing happened to a batch of cider that has not occurred before and wondered if anyone had anything similar.

I was doing a batch of medium cider by our usual method. back sweeten with natural sugar -  chill -  lightly carbonate and then pasteurise. The cider was from a particularly good barrel - pressed late November 2016  full flavoured.moderate tannins, fruity and well balanced from a range traditional varieties fermented to dry using AWRI 350 . The cider was completely clear and had been racked off the lees and tasting great.

The cider looked and tasted great right throughout, but when I took a bottle back for quality testing once it had cooled I  noticed that the bottle was full of some kind of precipitate that had clumped together to form lumps of various size, some of which floated to the top. On investigation these appeared to be a very fine soft substance that readily broke up. The cider still tasted great -  but is of course un sell able.

Is this pectin coming out of solution during the heat process? - i have seen similar thing in a batch of apple juice once before. perhaps from over ripe apples? 

I think my only option for the rest of the barrel is to either keep it as a dry (which some would be anyway )  - or to use sucralose to negate the need for pasteurisation -  but this is something that I do not do.

any thoughts or advice welcome.

Ben

[Andrew Lea]

On 14/08/2017 11:39, Devon Ben (Green man cider) wrote:

>
> I was doing a batch of medium cider by our usual method. back sweeten
> with natural sugar - chill - lightly carbonate and then pasteurise.

What do you mean in this context by "natural sugar"? Just regular white
granulated cane or beet sugar, or something else?

I ask because some sugar sources can have relatively high levels of
soluble calcium left over from primary processing. This can form a
calcium pectate gel under certain circumstances.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Alan stone]

For me use dry - if sweeten su to lose every time - personal taste but I find it less intrusive than the taint of sugar

Sent from my iPhone

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[Graeme Hart - Farm]

Hi
Have been following the group with interest for some time but this is my first question and relates to pasteurisation.

I am situated on the Mornington Peninsula just south of Melbourne, Australia.

I have an apple orchard - 350 trees of English and French " heritage varieties " on trellis ( netting for parrots). Also have access to "modern" varieties such as gala, pink lady, Jonathon, fuji from local growers.

This is my 3rd year of small scale commercial production ( 800-1500 litres) having previously bottle conditioned to completion of fermentation - zero glucose or fructose remaining and ethanol 7%. Quite dry and enjoyed by many but too dry for much of the prospective market.

Hence trying to make a semi - dry cider this year using bottle conditioning and pasteurisation to halt the bottle fermentation.

This year have set up pasteurizing vat ( 1500 litre ex milk vat) powered by 2 domestic Rinnai gas water heaters pushing out moderate flow at 75C and recirculating the vat water using temperature controller that appears to give good control. A mixing paddle rotates ensuring pretty good temperature consistency

My first batch last weekend

Temperature raised from 14C to 62C in about 90 minutes and held tightly between 61 and 63 for 45 minutes before draining vat and allowing cooling.

The cider used had been filtered to about 6 microns and fresh "pink lady" juice added at 30% total volume. The intent being to bottle condition to SG around 1010 for a light - mid carbonation and a mid style cider - actually tastes pretty good !
BUT
I have a similar "floater" problem with this batch with a presumably denatured protein "float"
- see pictures - have included some pictures of our setup for information.

My winemaking colleagues suggest this is a sign of "unstable protein" in the cider and that the solution is to use an enzymatic reduction of pectins, glycosides etc ( Sur Lies has been recommended) after initial tank (Stainless steel) fermentation and then use a bentonite fining technique - the dose being reduced by the previous enzymatic process.

I would then add further juice and yeast, bottle and pasteurise.

Does this seem reasonable??
How will I avoid further unstable proteins as a result of the bottle fermentation.

Is my pasteurisation temperature reasonable or could I get away with a lower temperature for a longer period of time??

Grateful for any advice.

Graeme Hart
Harts Farm
300 Tucks Rd Shoreham Vic 3916
www.hartsfarm.com.au
ABN: 22025277291


0414238156

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[Andrew Lea]

On 30/08/2017 03:07, Graeme Hart - Farm wrote:


> I have a similar "floater" problem with this batch with a presumably denatured protein "float"

In cider it's unlikely to be protein. Much more likely to be pectin.
Apples are not grapes.

>
> My winemaking colleagues suggest this is a sign of "unstable protein" in the cider and that the solution is to use an enzymatic reduction of pectins, glycosides etc ( Sur Lies has been recommended) after initial tank (Stainless steel) fermentation and then use a bentonite fining technique - the dose being reduced by the previous enzymatic process.

Yes do the pectinase treatment, but I suspect the bentonite will be
unnecessary (its purpose is to remove protein, which is high in grapes
but low in apple)

>
> I would then add further juice and yeast, bottle and pasteurise.

I am slightly unclear as to why you are adding yeast and then
pasteurising immediately. That will just kill the yeast so you won't get
any bottle conditioning.

>
> Is my pasteurisation temperature reasonable or could I get away with a lower temperature for a longer period of time??

If anything your pasteurisation is already too long and slow IMO. It is
better to do a shorter time at a higher temp. This gives less chance of
developing cooked flavours. You need to be aiming at 50 PUs for cider,
maybe a tad more if you have added fresh juice with its high inherent
yeast load. See this thread for more detail about PUs
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/cider-workshop/rJjxsXSzLl0

Andrew


--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

www.amazon.co.uk/Craft-Cider-Making-Andrew-Lea/dp/1785000152

[Graeme Hart - Farm]

Thanks for the prompt feedback Andrew, it was very helpful as was the link you provided.

I did not intend to imply immediate pasteurisation of back filled cider but to do so after the bottle conditioning reached desirable characteristics.

It seems some of the bottles have the floater breaking up and sedimenting, so hopefully more will do so.

G

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: Wednesday, 30 August 2017 6:39 PM
To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] lumpy cider conundrum.