Top grafting

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Hi,

I have several standard dessert tree that I would like to top graft with cider varieties. These trees need have been neglected and also need some heavy pruning.

I would like to find a good book or information source that could cover both subjects.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Louis

[Claude Jolicoeur]

If you don't already have it, you should have Michael Phillips' The Apple Grower.

This is the book I had when I did my first pruning and grafting, but unfortunately out of print and only available second hand. The Amazon price is outrageous - I got my copy for 10$... With some luck you could find it in a second hand book store.
Covers pruning and grafting and a lot more.
https://www.amazon.ca/Arbres-arbustes-fruitiers-Production-ecologique/dp/B00SQB2LLG

You could try this one, at least the price tag is reasonable.
https://www.amazon.ca/Taille-arbres-fruitiers-Transformation-formation/dp/2890001326
Same author, should be the same as the previous for pruning, but I don't know if it also covers grafting.

Claude

[Tom Bugs]

I've enjoyed watching some of Stephen Hayes' videos on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/user/stephenhayesuk
+ he has an online book available now I think.

Lots of eye-opening approaches presented in quite pragmatic manner.
For example, a couple of weeks back I watched a vid where he'd cut down several bramleys to long stumps, let shoots grow out, trim those down to just a few strong shoots, let those grow for a season and then top-work cider varieties on to those.
Not that that's *the* way to do things, but I like his approaches & inspiration.

[Ian Shields]

I agree the Stephen Hayes videos are useful.

ian

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[David]

Of all the trees I have top worked in this way over the years I would say 50% at best have been successful. I don't mean the grafting itself, that would be high 90's percentage wise, rather the success of the resulting tree.

The main problem is that heavy pruning means big wounds where limbs have been removed, these wounds are so exposed to infection that it is almost a certainty. Silverleaf being the main one but others that are equally devastating are very likely.

There will always be shoots growing out that are the old variety from below the grafts. These are easy to control if you have just a few trees but if you are not familiar with the appearance of various varieties as they grow you will end up with a branch of the wrong variety. Quite possibly that doesn't matter to you of course.

My advice based on my own experiences as a commercial grower is to grub and replant with the rootstock and variety that you want, it is definitely what I would do.

If that hasn't put you off then do as suggested above and allow watershoots to grow and graft onto them rather than onto the cut ends of removed limbs. My reasoning for this (and I have done both) is that rind, cleft etc grafting will always just be a branch stuck on the side of a cut. They never create a strong enough union and are liable to snap off at that union at some point, this can be a few years down the line just as you get your first good crop. If you graft onto a watershoot the union itself is strong and grows as the tree grows with a resulting strength that beats rind grafting or the like.

[Jim Hossack]

Hi Davind,  Interesting stuff! I have a pretty good sized 10 year old "liner-tree-crab" I intend to graft over this coming April.  This tree was supposed to be a wildlife only crab but it throws a green apple the  size of a red delicious complete with the lobe-knobs on the bottom of the apple.  Very un-interesting, mealy and sparse in production.  I hope to turn it into a favorite variety.  It does have good to great form presently with good crotch angles on inch or better diameter lateral branches.  I was thinking many many rind and clefts grafts on this guy but may rethink to just a severe pruning this year in order to get the magic watersprout as I have best faith in good old whip-n-toungue.  So, I'm going to have to ponder.

[Patrick Mann]

I share David's mistrust of bark-grafting to big cuts. If you do go that way, I think it's essential to place multiple scions around the entire circumference to aid in healing. 

Here's a nice explanation and demonstration of top-working:
http://skillcult.com/blog/2017/5/24/how-to-graft-onto-existing-fruit-trees-frameworking-and-topworking-explained

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Hi Claude,

I do have the apple grower, which is a very good book, but it doesn't cover restoration pruning a lot.

I do have a book of Jean Richard (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=7663649858&cm_sp=collections-_-CVhCGkXfUoeT01wqwlZRb_item_1_45-_-bdp).

It look a bit like the same as yours but maybe a older version? The book was very interesting and did cover restoration pruning (although there is not a lot a illustrations) and I was wondering how was perceived the swiss prunung method by other cider orchardist. Did you followed his advises for your old standard tree orchard? 

I've seen newers versions of the book too which might be more illustrated (http://www.renaud-bray.com/Livres_Produit.aspx?id=1155464&def=Taille+des+arbres+fruitiers(La)+N.%C3%A9d.%2cLANGLAIS%2c+GUY%2cRICHARD%2c+JEAN%2c9782896542154) 

Thank you very much,

Louis

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Hi David. 

I am happy to have your opinion on the subject. I was wondering what was the best way to convert a tree from avariety to another. It is special that you don't suggest cleft/rind grafting as alost every source I've looked at were only promoting them (I have hardly read anything about watersprout grafting). Nice to know that these grafts aren't strong enough to do the job.... I do wonder : even with this method, you will end up creating big wounds as you will most likely cut these big wrong variety branches to let your new graft become a scaffold branch? Unless you do graft several watersprout on a scaffold, which isn't an easy task on several 20 feets tall standard trees....

I know that cut them and replant younger trees of better variety would be easier but this wouldn't allow me to benefit of any apple for my cider production for several years. I am not a commercial grower neither, which allow me to be able to deal with low long term yields ad possibly harder work (pruning, grafting, etc.) for what it worth.

Thank you very much!

Louis

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 12 février 2018 21:40:03 UTC-5, luis.ga...@gmail.com a écrit :

I do have a book of Jean Richard (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=7663649858&cm_sp=collections-_-CVhCGkXfUoeT01wqwlZRb_item_1_45-_-bdp).

It look a bit like the same as yours but maybe a older version? The book was very interesting and did cover restoration pruning (although there is not a lot a illustrations) and I was wondering how was perceived the swiss prunung method by other cider orchardist. Did you followed his advises for your old standard tree orchard? 

Yes, it is the same - you have the second edition. See my French book page 388 for the story... For my part, I have 3 editions of this book!
 

I've seen newers versions of the book too which might be more illustrated (http://www.renaud-bray.com/Livres_Produit.aspx?id=1155464&def=Taille+des+arbres+fruitiers(La)+N.%C3%A9d.%2cLANGLAIS%2c+GUY%2cRICHARD%2c+JEAN%2c9782896542154) 

That one seems to be a new edition of the pruning book.

As of wether it is best to work with your existing trees or plant new ones, I'd say do both if you have enough space...
For my part I think it is a shame to cut a good old tree - although I realize that keeping them is not always effective for someone who grows apples commercially.
Topgrafting old trees will let you have fruit much faster. Also, it permits to evaluate more rapidly if a variety has chances to make it in our climate.
When the variety seems to handle the climate, I then plant a tree.

I do have old stardard trees that bear more than 10 varieties. Quite special to see yellow, green, red, russet, and striped fruits on the same tree!
For my part, I graft on smaller secondary branches of 0.5 to 2 cm diameter, and will eventually cut the ungrafted main branch once the grafts have taken some vigor.
I mostly use the grafting technique described page 291 of your edition of the Richard book, or the whip and tong when the grafted branch is the same size as the scion.
Claude

[Vince Wakefield]

 

The grafters handbook has a whole chapter on top working with many techniques

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=the+grafters+handbook&tag=googhydr-21&index=aps&hvadid=188210513986&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6222808572861259926&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045291&hvtargid=kwd-809322305&ref=pd_sl_26lcfuly3x_e

 

Vince

Virus-free. www.avg.com

[John B, Bath]

Yes, I also have found R J Garner extremely useful!

I am successively working a Bramley orchard over to cider varieties and have generally cut the old, deformed, sick trees right back to one, two or three surfaces for grafting. I have put 2-6 scions evenly spaced around each cut surface depending on size. The trees seem very willing to support these grafts and last year I had almost 100% success in terms of individual scions and every surface had scion wood growing on. 

Trials on grafting to more, smaller surfaces (including more cleft grafts) further from the trunk have been less successful as there are more of the tree's own growth nodes to shoot out from. By going right back near the stem, you are practically forcing the tree to adopt the scions, but this is a trade-off with making bigger cuts. I do still use the odd cleft graft on smaller limbs with success, but I don't like them visually as the different vigour of the two varieties means you can end up with a bit of an ugly join.

The main problem I worry about is that tree stems/trunks that have been in serious shade for a couple of decades are now out in the bright sunlight and I am trusting to luck whether they get 'sun burn' (Garner would have me whitewash the trunks; I don't have time). The bark on the old trunks doesn't appear very healthy, to be honest, but it has not deteriorated since I started top-working them from their parlous state and again I am just watching and waiting. Fortunately I do not have any financial reliance on what I am doing; the time I have spent has been very instructive at least.

John

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

I agree that old standard, although not as productive, are worth it has they bring a very nice feature to the landscape.

So the greffe en coulée and the whip and thongue. Nice to know. I'll make my first attempts this spring.

And the Garner's book on grafting does look interesting. I hope I can find it old or new at a normal price (doesn't seem easy).

Louis

[jitd...@aol.com]

I found David Heyes' YouTube video on top grafting quite useful.  He cuts back close to the main trunk and lets waterspouts form.  He grafts into the water spouts the following year.  I had a few grafting failures cleft grafting into major limbs following the illustrations I had seen in a borrowed grafter's handbook.  Never mind that I didn't have the special clefting tool - (looked like an ordinary cleaver to me with a protruding spike) I used my old golok and a club hammer, most grafts failed completely leaving major limbs with ugly exposed fissures ripe for infestation, the grafts which did take were weak not surviving the following season. 
Clefting waterspouts has been much more successful.  (I have tried to cut these clever notched unions but out in the raw cold of early March all I've ever succeeded in doing is to notch my thumb so I now stick to a wedge and cleft.) The unions are firm and the first year's scion growth has been strong.  The few failed grafts can be executed at the base of the waterspout and will heal rapidly.  I haven't been grafting long enough to see how they fruit.  (A Marjorie's seedling plum which I grafted on to what might have been a blackthorn or a plum sucker 6 years ago has still not shewn fruit though there is a robust union.)
Although I have had silver leaf in my plums once before (the infected tree went in the wood-burner) I haven't yet seen it in any of my apples or pears despite my annual mutilations. 
Jit

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[Vince Wakefield]

I think I would be inclined to either summer bud graft or autumn graft plums to try and prevent silverleaf infections.

 

Vince

Virus-free. www.avg.com

[jitd...@aol.com]

I didn't realise autumn grafting would work, that's interesting.  Any further details or references? 
Jit

[Vince Wakefield]

It’s mentioned in the grafters handbook

[Hank]

Very worth while to look at youtube.  I have been grafting over old seedlings in my pasture.  I like Bark grafting.  Either make the wounds as small as you can and do a whole lot more grafting per tree, or graft aggressively and have a replacement program in place.  I grafted aggressively and hope these trees will fruit for 10 year or more while I grow new trees.  If you bark graft, do it later than you think you should and stuff as many scions onto each wound as you can, as they will promote more healing faster (then refrain from cutting them all the way back when pruning for as long as possible....

If you do have a few years to spare, prune hard and wait for a response, then graft in a year or two.  the only failiure i had were on trees in decline that I did not try to reinvigorate before grafting.

My project is only a few years old, but things look promising in general.

[Tom Bugs]

Another part idea that hasn't been mentioned is whether there are any local events - a combination of such a practical day coupled with youtube vids and books would make a nice mix - hard to learn without getting your hands dirty & getting the feel, but great to have someone to offer practical advice as you take the first steps. And you may be able to ask pertinent questions that have come up through your reading & watching.
For instance, around these parts there's the Marcher Apple Network which has some pruning and grafting events coming up for not very much $$$. (would go if I wasn't moving house).

I've been enjoying the SkillCult grating series on Youtube the last week (think it was suggested here) - my general approach is read & watch as much as possible because there are always lots of different ways you can approach.