Re: [Cider Workshop] Cider to sharp/sour Help!!!!!
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Andrew Lea
Sep 1, 2012, 7:50:10 AM9/1/12
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On 01/09/2012 12:21, Cider head wrote:
> Hi all what�s the best way to balance out a sharp cider without adding
> any nasty�s. We only have cookers and eaters available to us no Cider
> apples.
See extract below from my book for the common options.
BTW we already have a 'Ciderhead' on this list. That could cause
confusion. You might like to choose another nickname, or use your real
name as most of us here do.
Andrew
------------------------------------
The Acidity Problem
If your cider has been made largely with dessert apples, it may be much
more acidic than you like. The Eastern Counties or German style does not
suit everyone�s palate. Once the apple sugar is fermented away, it is
surprising how stark the remaining acid becomes. There are several
approaches to this problem. If you have other batches of cider with
lower acidity, you can simply (a) blend until an acceptable balance is
achieved. You can (b) sweeten the cider to mask or to offset the acid
taste by the procedures given later. You can (c) reduce the acid taste
by the use of calcium or potassium carbonate in 0.1% steps. Calcium
carbonate tends to give a somewhat chalky taste due to the calcium ion
and potassium carbonate is to be preferred. Even so, the maximum
acceptable dose of potassium carbonate is around 0.3% and this may be
insufficient to do the job. Unfortunately the potassium remains in
solution and affects the flavour; in addition it takes the potassium way
outside normal cider levels so there may be legal implications if you
plan to sell the cider.
Until relatively recent times there were no other possibilities for the
cidermaker. Although malo-lactic fermentation (MLF) will drop the
acidity by half if all the malic acid transforms to lactic, the wild MLF
organisms were highly unpredictable and in any case would not grow in an
acidic cider, so this route was impracticable. Now, however, MLF
cultures are commercially available which will work down to pH 3.1 and
in theory might convert a cider with as much as 1 % acid down to one
with around 0.5%. They do have a minimum temperature requirement of
around 17� C though. I have myself taken a cider of 0.8% acid down to
around 0.5% by this means over about 2 months in the warmth of an
English Summer, using a commercial Leuconstoc oenos culture. In my view
this opens up a whole new route to producing relatively balanced full
juice ciders from dessert fruit which in the past would simply have been
considered too acid by most consumers.
It is worth commenting that some cidermakers who have used MLF cultures,
myself included, have noted how much less cidery and how much more
vinuous the final product is. The lactic acid bacteria do far more in
terms of flavour change than simply convert one acid to another � as
described earlier, they may for instance generate characteristic
�buttery� notes. One thing the cultures do not appear to do, though, is
to introduce the �spicy� notes which are regarded as characteristic of
high quality bittersweet blends which have undergone wild MLF. As with
yeast, a single monoculture of MLF may not introduce the diversity of
flavour which a mixed microflora may do. But, if acid reduction is the
goal, the other flavour changes may still be an acceptable trade-off,
and by using a culture you are unlikely to generate unwanted bacterial
�off-flavours� which a wild MLF might do.
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk
> Hi all what�s the best way to balance out a sharp cider without adding
> any nasty�s. We only have cookers and eaters available to us no Cider
> apples.
See extract below from my book for the common options.
BTW we already have a 'Ciderhead' on this list. That could cause
confusion. You might like to choose another nickname, or use your real
name as most of us here do.
Andrew
------------------------------------
The Acidity Problem
If your cider has been made largely with dessert apples, it may be much
more acidic than you like. The Eastern Counties or German style does not
suit everyone�s palate. Once the apple sugar is fermented away, it is
surprising how stark the remaining acid becomes. There are several
approaches to this problem. If you have other batches of cider with
lower acidity, you can simply (a) blend until an acceptable balance is
achieved. You can (b) sweeten the cider to mask or to offset the acid
taste by the procedures given later. You can (c) reduce the acid taste
by the use of calcium or potassium carbonate in 0.1% steps. Calcium
carbonate tends to give a somewhat chalky taste due to the calcium ion
and potassium carbonate is to be preferred. Even so, the maximum
acceptable dose of potassium carbonate is around 0.3% and this may be
insufficient to do the job. Unfortunately the potassium remains in
solution and affects the flavour; in addition it takes the potassium way
outside normal cider levels so there may be legal implications if you
plan to sell the cider.
Until relatively recent times there were no other possibilities for the
cidermaker. Although malo-lactic fermentation (MLF) will drop the
acidity by half if all the malic acid transforms to lactic, the wild MLF
organisms were highly unpredictable and in any case would not grow in an
acidic cider, so this route was impracticable. Now, however, MLF
cultures are commercially available which will work down to pH 3.1 and
in theory might convert a cider with as much as 1 % acid down to one
with around 0.5%. They do have a minimum temperature requirement of
around 17� C though. I have myself taken a cider of 0.8% acid down to
around 0.5% by this means over about 2 months in the warmth of an
English Summer, using a commercial Leuconstoc oenos culture. In my view
this opens up a whole new route to producing relatively balanced full
juice ciders from dessert fruit which in the past would simply have been
considered too acid by most consumers.
It is worth commenting that some cidermakers who have used MLF cultures,
myself included, have noted how much less cidery and how much more
vinuous the final product is. The lactic acid bacteria do far more in
terms of flavour change than simply convert one acid to another � as
described earlier, they may for instance generate characteristic
�buttery� notes. One thing the cultures do not appear to do, though, is
to introduce the �spicy� notes which are regarded as characteristic of
high quality bittersweet blends which have undergone wild MLF. As with
yeast, a single monoculture of MLF may not introduce the diversity of
flavour which a mixed microflora may do. But, if acid reduction is the
goal, the other flavour changes may still be an acceptable trade-off,
and by using a culture you are unlikely to generate unwanted bacterial
�off-flavours� which a wild MLF might do.
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk
CiderHead
Sep 1, 2012, 3:29:20 PM9/1/12
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
On Saturday, September 1, 2012 12:50:18 PM UTC+1, Andrew Lea wrote:
On 01/09/2012 12:21, Cider head wrote:
> Hi all what�s the best way to balance out a sharp cider without adding
> any nasty�s. We only have cookers and eaters available to us no Cider
> apples.
See extract below from my book for the common options.
BTW we already have a 'Ciderhead' on this list. <<<
Cue me, I guess! It was a name I chose before I realised this was a site populated by serious cider-makers. I might change mine I think.
Regarding the acidity issue, I have had much success using Lalvin 71B and Gervin #9 yeasts, as has been discussed before on this forum. Both reduce the level of malic acid by about 30%. A natural malo-lactic fremantation is rather hit-and-miss.
Cheers,
Martin
howard roth
Sep 2, 2012, 3:07:51 PM9/2/12
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
I'm an amateur with only 3 years cider making but I did have a similar problem last year. After fermenting to dry with a champagne yeast my cider was undrinkably acidic. In March I added sugar to S.G. 1.010 and bottle conditioned with 71B in Champagne bottles. Had some this morning for brunch and it is very good now. The 71B really seems to have tamed the acidity.
Dibbs
Sep 3, 2012, 6:05:47 AM9/3/12
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
So adding sugar and 71B to a finished cider can reduce acidity. That is interesting. I wouldn't have expected that to work.
I'm an amateur too with only 2 years experience. I'm using whatever apples I can get from friends and neighbours. After the first year's was mostly too acidic, For my second year I omitted any Bramley style apples I was given with considerably better results. This year I'm planning on omitting any that taste like granny smiths too, or at least separating them into their own batch.
I didn't actually notice much difference in acidiy between my batches fermented with wild yeast and those with 71B last year. Mind you, I'm not sure the 71B actually worked. It took an age for fermentation to get going in those batches and someone on here claimed to have got a dud batch of 71B from the same source as mine (some Ebay seller in Canada). So the 71B batches might actually have ended up being wild yeast fermentations too.
I was given a few stone of what look like cox's over the weekend so the first pressing of the year will be this evening. :)
Do cox's make decent cider on their own?
Raymond Blockley
Sep 3, 2012, 6:28:29 AM9/3/12
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Hi Dibbs,
Cox's on their own are not going to give a robust, full bodied cider - but I guess you are fully aware of that from your experiences so far. :) On their own, they are not 'full' of flavour...
I use a lot of Cox's and blend them with whatever I can get hold of. A "...decent cider..." is something that only you'll be able to judge, for your own tastes. Some on here will pour scorn on using anything *but* "west country cider fruit" and pigeon-hole any post about using dessert or (some) culinary fruit. It all depends on your definition of "good cider" or "decent cider" and only your taste buds will tell you what that is. Vivre la difference / beauty is in the eye of the beholder, etc
The majority of our ciders are made from locally collected dessert and (some) dual use (dessert + culinary), plus we have specific trees we've found along the highways and byways that after tasting & testing, we throw in the mix too.
My advice would be to ferment the Cox's as you get them, then ferment seperately whatever else comes your way, then taste and blend post ferment. Using fruit of fairly well-known and recorded qualities (ie: most well known "traditional cider fruit") allows you to blend the fruit pre-ferment but with wild-card fruit this is too hit and miss, and can be disastrous ;)
Target making the best cider you can from whatever fruit is available to you (sans Bramley et al of course!). A clean, fresh, crisp, well made "eastern counties" cider, with no faults, is just as good as any other - just different. You will have to accept a higher level of acidity, but the use of a malo-lactic culture or a touch of post-maturation sweetener will enable you to make something quite good.
Remember adding sugar will run a high risk of kick-starting the ferment off again.
Cheers, Ray.
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