Botlle contracting

[Tony Cross]

I have the opportunity to use a local Brewery's bottling line for my cider. I will take a 1000L tote of blended cider to them, where it will pasteurised in bulk to 65 Celsius. Then sent through a heat exchanger to maybe  1 degrees. Cold crashed and carbonated. Then sent through a 3 micron bag filter to the bottling line. Is this a fairly standard treatment, and , is there anything I should be doing as the cider maker regards quality control? Any comments welcolme.

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[Tim]

It should be chilled, carbonated, bottled then pasteurised.

 

Tim in Dorset

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[Andrew Lea]

If this is a proper flow through pasteurisation and bottling system in commercially sterile conditions, with rIgorous CIP etc, then you should be alright. But if it’s just some sort of an ad hoc lash up, I’d be careful. What is protecting the cider from microbial contamination after pasteurisation? For small scale batch treatment in the UK, as Tim says, it’s normal to pasteurise the carbonated bottles. What you describe is normally only done here on a large scale where all the proper microbiological controls are in place throughout the filling chain. 

I’m not sure that a filter as large as 3 microns is any use to anyone. What is it supposed to remove?  I would also advise you to add 50 ppm SO2 just before bottling to reduce the possibility of chill hazes in storage. 

Btw I’m aware that you’re in Australia and things are different there. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 15 Oct 2017, at 08:29, Tony Cross <tony....@hotmail.com> wrote:

I have the opportunity to use a local Brewery's bottling line for my cider. I will take a 1000L tote of blended cider to them, where it will pasteurised in bulk to 65 Celsius. Then sent through a heat exchanger to maybe  1 degrees. Cold crashed and carbonated. Then sent through a 3 micron bag filter to the bottling line. Is this a fairly standard treatment, and , is there anything I should be doing as the cider maker regards quality control? Any comments welcolme.

Sent from Outlook

--

[Tony Cross]

They are a new brewery , and are very new to cider. They do apple juice for someone and they heat treat (pasteurise ) in a 1000l stainless tank, which then goes through the heat exchanger for cold crashing and carbonating. But from what you are saying, is it might be a bit risky  post carbonation, regarding microbiological contamination.  Maybe skipping their pasteurising, and doing that myself is a safer option.  The 3 micron filter is just something that they have,and not much use. Would cold crashing down to say - 0 Celsius be enough to reduce sediment, or is filtering after carbonation still advisable?  Thanks for your input.

Sent from Outlook

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From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk>
Sent: Sunday, 15 October 2017 7:36:58 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Botlle contracting

 

[Denis France]

If you want a clear fizzy cider and you fermented it to dry and will bottle either dry or back sweetened, you can do it far easier. Forget the cold crash, that is for stabilising a still fermenting cider, drop the idea of doing anything post carbonation apart from bottling and pastuerisation as you are making hard work.

As Tim said, filter, chill, carbonate, bottle pastuerise.

You are talking to a brewery about a process they use on beer. Beer and cider are different beasts and need different processes.

Denis

On 16 Oct 2017 2:52 am, "Tony Cross" <tony....@hotmail.com> wrote:

They are a new brewery , and are very new to cider. They do apple juice for someone and they heat treat (pasteurise ) in a 1000l stainless tank, which then goes through the heat exchanger for cold crashing and carbonating. But from what you are saying, is it might be a bit risky  post carbonation, regarding microbiological contamination.  Maybe skipping their pasteurising, and doing that myself is a safer option.  The 3 micron filter is just something that they have,and not much use. Would cold crashing down to say - 0 Celsius be enough to reduce sediment, or is filtering after carbonation still advisable?  Thanks for your input.

Sent from Outlook

---

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-workshop@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk>

Sent: Sunday, 15 October 2017 7:36:58 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Botlle contracting

If this is a proper flow through pasteurisation and bottling system in commercially sterile conditions, with rIgorous CIP etc, then you should be alright. But if it’s just some sort of an ad hoc lash up, I’d be careful. What is protecting the cider from microbial contamination after pasteurisation? For small scale batch treatment in the UK, as Tim says, it’s normal to pasteurise the carbonated bottles. What you describe is normally only done here on a large scale where all the proper microbiological controls are in place throughout the filling chain. 

I’m not sure that a filter as large as 3 microns is any use to anyone. What is it supposed to remove?  I would also advise you to add 50 ppm SO2 just before bottling to reduce the possibility of chill hazes in storage. 

Btw I’m aware that you’re in Australia and things are different there. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 15 Oct 2017, at 08:29, Tony Cross <tony....@hotmail.com> wrote:

I have the opportunity to use a local Brewery's bottling line for my cider. I will take a 1000L tote of blended cider to them, where it will pasteurised in bulk to 65 Celsius. Then sent through a heat exchanger to maybe  1 degrees. Cold crashed and carbonated. Then sent through a 3 micron bag filter to the bottling line. Is this a fairly standard treatment, and , is there anything I should be doing as the cider maker regards quality control? Any comments welcolme.

Sent from Outlook

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[Dick Dunn]

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 06:40:59AM +0100, Denis France wrote:
[notes on cold-crash, post-carbonation stuff etc]
...

> You are talking to a brewery about a process they use on beer. Beer and
> cider are different beasts and need different processes.

Well put. In particular, when I hear someone use the phrase "cold crash",
I know that the person is either a brewer or someone dealing with brewers,
so it's time to try to ease them away from that world.

(Yes, you CAN "cold crash" a cider...but, Denis is right; it's just not a
process that fits with cider. Learn to make cider, not ciderbeer:-)
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Tony Cross]

What micron size would you suggest to filter down to, to avoid any lees deposit in bottle?

Sent from Outlook

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From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dick Dunn <rc...@talisman.com>
Sent: Monday, 16 October 2017 5:22:09 PM

To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Botlle contracting

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[Handmade Cider]

I use cellulose filter pads which are nominally rated at 1 micron. Sometimes it takes more than one pass of the filter to get the cider star bright.

D

Denis France   www.handmadecider.co.uk   07590 264804  Company. No. 07241330

White Label – Champion Farmhouse Cider, Bath & West Show 2015.

Spring Surprise - Cider of the Festival Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2014 - 2016

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Tony Cross <tony....@hotmail.com> wrote:

What micron size would you suggest to filter down to, to avoid any lees deposit in bottle?

Sent from Outlook

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From: cider-workshop@googlegroups.com <cider-workshop@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dick Dunn <rc...@talisman.com>

Sent: Monday, 16 October 2017 5:22:09 PM

To: cider-workshop@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Botlle contracting

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 06:40:59AM +0100, Denis France wrote:
[notes on cold-crash, post-carbonation stuff etc]
...
> You are talking to a brewery about a process they use on beer. Beer and
> cider are different beasts and need different processes.

Well put.  In particular, when I hear someone use the phrase "cold crash",
I know that the person is either a brewer or someone dealing with brewers,
so it's time to try to ease them away from that world.

(Yes, you CAN "cold crash" a cider...but, Denis is right; it's just not a
process that fits with cider.  Learn to make cider, not ciderbeer:-)
--
Dick Dunn          rc...@talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA

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[Cornelius Traas]

That is very high risk behaviour for the carbonated juice. None of the hurdles that are present in cider (such as some SO2 and a certain amount of alcohol) are there as inhibition in the juice, should some stray cells make it through the process that seems less than robust.

 

Cornelius Traas, The Apple Farm, Ireland.

www.theapplefarm.com
T: @theapplefarmer

Sent from my Apple Farm :-)

[Duncan Hewitt]

On a related note, do you *have* to pasteurise in the UK in order to sell to the public?

What about ciders you naturally carbonate in the bottle with their own sugar - is that just not saleable to the public?

Duncan

[Alan stone]

Of course not!

Sent from my iPhone

[Duncan Hewitt]

Good to know. Just with all the talk of Lysteria and pasteurising on here recently I was beginning to think otherwise. I'm serious about offering some of the cider for sale in the future and began to wonder if I'd oversimplified things in my head by all I was reading. To someone relatively new to the whole cider making thing, it's not an obvious position - pasteurise or not pasteurise - especially in Derbyshire where you don't rub shoulders with anyone else making it on a regular basis, or any basis whatsoever to be honest!

Thanks for the clarification :) Is there anything a cider maker should be doing, other than obvious hygiene proceduers, to make any EHO happy that their product is free from any potential nasties?