[Cherokee] Your logo is extremely culturally insensitive to American Indigenous Peoples

[Zachary Krebs]

Please consider removing it or changing it. For some context, there is a huge dispute in N. America about people using Native American symbols/logos/caricatures in popular culture to demean or otherwise insinuate that indigenous people are fast, quirky, half-witted, lesser-than, etc. The entire idea of naming web servers after Native People (for no reason) and then having logos from their cultural background makes little sense. Perhaps you could consider redesigning your logo to use something other than a caricature of a person? Also posted this to the Hiawatha forum, which has a similar issue.

http://www.hiawatha-webserver.org/forum/topic/686

Sincerely,

Zachary Krebs

Voice:(541) 708-1163
Skype: ZacharyKrebs

[Jim Isaacs]

This 'dispute' has been going on for over 20+ years, and has gone basically nowhere.

Calling a sports team the Indians is no different than calling them the Fighting Irish, the Buccaneers, the Steelers, Deamon Deacons, Boiler Makers, Musketeers, etc...

If anything being a mascot for something is more of an honor rather than being demeaning. It is a symbol if pride for one's heritage.

I went to grade school in Ohio, and played for the team the Red Raiders. This is not going to change anytime soon.

Even though I don't thing it matters, the character in the logo is never anything other than running or standing.

It could be anyone or anything. The only reason why it is a person that looks like that is because it doesn't make sense to be anything else.

Also it doesn't make Apache's logo that much different just because they went with a feather rather than a actual Apache.

---------------

Jim Isaacs

614.228.3069

52 E 41st Place, Apt. 7

San Mateo, CA 94403

http://jidd.jimisaacs.com

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[Tony Zakula]

Well said!  I couldn't agree more.

TonyZ

[Stefan de Konink]

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Op 08-10-10 18:28, Jim Isaacs schreef:

> This 'dispute' has been going on for over 20+ years, and has gone
> basically nowhere.

I totally agree, on the IRC channel we had a native Cherokee guy this
summer. He was lost, but I invited him over in our channel to discuss
some stuff. He was basically debunking all the 'anti-logo' stuff we have
heard before. And I was quite suprised some people are actually
realistic and not going fundamental on everything.

Personally I wouldn't be offended if there was a firewall called
HansBrinker[1] with a guy in Wooden Shoes putting his finger in a wall.

Stefan

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Brinker,_or_The_Silver_Skates>
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[Max Countryman]

I think your accusations are a bit of a red herring: As we have well learned by now, a symbol is not the object it represents. However you're attempting to assert the representation is the object and is therefore objectionable, this is a logical fallacy.

If you care about the history of native peoples, spend your time and energy enriching that culture rather than detracting from relatively unrelated software projects which neither detract from nor otherwise frame native ethnography.

[Vladimir Smagin]

It is ridiculous

> _______________________________________________
> Cherokee mailing list
> Cher...@lists.octality.com
> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

--

Vladimir Smagin
http://blindage.org
http://acer-e110.net

[Zachary Krebs]

I can see that there is very little receptivity around this topic. That is fine. I would suggest that instead of using your brain like a hammer to approach every issue, consider how this might feel to someone. As we have also learned, the mind is not the only source of intelligence. Looking at things with open perceptive lenses, we can see faults and correct them, without defending our actions. Its easy to twist logic to support something, but its harder to understand and trust others.

Sincerely,

Zachary Krebs

Voice:(541) 708-1163
Skype: ZacharyKrebs

[Max Countryman]

I would strongly suggest you concentrate your efforts on constructive rather than destructive activities.

Had the Cherokee Webserver Project made claims about the cultural identity of the Cherokee People I think you would have some ground to stand on. But they don't, never have, and most likely never will. You're trying to create an issue where there isn't one, choosing to take offense to something in illogical way by using logical fallacies and misleading rationalizations.

Finally you want to appeal to the community to experience how you feel, to consider your emotional response. I'm sorry to say: only you can make the choice to react to something, you have only yourself to hold accountable, no one else.

[Jim Isaacs]

Action without defense is the complete lack of confidence.

---------------

Jim Isaacs

[Zachary Krebs]

Its not destructive to say that the branding of a particular GOOD product is culturally insensitive. If all you care about is the code, and how the product works, then why is this such a big issue that can not be reflected on? Instead of silencing the issue, we should review it and see if there is anything we can do to make a win-win. Its easy to move on and ignore such things, but there is now a pattern of web-server products using this kind of consciousness. Its constructive to point out that perhaps you, and perhaps the people involved in the project have not fully considered the implications of their actions. Or rather, you do not choose to look at them because you do not value the perspective that it could be considered offensive to someone. Being sensitive to how other people think/feel means forgoing your own logical ability for a moment, and understanding their place. Obviously the product does not make any reference to the cultural heritage of the Cherokee people. Then, logically, there is no need to represent the people by using their name or a caricature of their people? If you ignore this logic, then there might be a flaw in the whole concept of using "logic" to streamroll through these issues. 

Sincerely,

Zachary Krebs

Voice:(541) 708-1163
Skype: ZacharyKrebs

[Italo Maia]

I can see that there is very little receptivity around this topic. That is fine. I would suggest that instead of using your brain like a hammer to approach every issue, consider how this might feel to someone.

Consider how i feel reading you write what you're writting...Much pain!!!

As we have also learned, the mind is not the only source of intelligence.

For some, it is not a source at all!

Hate false moralists...¬¬

2010/10/8 Zachary Krebs <zkr...@gmail.com>

--
"A arrogância é a arma dos fracos."

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===========================

[Max Countryman]

Sorry, you can't ask us to 'forgo logic' for you. It's also not a method by which you can dismiss what has already been said here apropos the contentions you've made; you can't ignore our points and then move to claim we're silencing the issue. On the contrary, multiple threads of discussion have already been generated, it would seem you simply aren't happy with the outcome with the discussion.

You said it yourself, the web server makes no assumptions of the Cherokee People, their heritage, or their culture. However, again, you try to equate a software logo with the Cherokee People, as if the logo is the People. This is simply wrong, as I have already pointed out.

Consider that by choosing to react, you're in effect taking on a reactionary point of view. I find such perspectives very distressing! Further you have gone out of your way to attempt to create an issue and effect a community unrelated to the issues that concern you, in other words you're trying to force your point of view onto others that would otherwise have no explicit association with you. All too often this leads to destructive, rather than constructive, discourse. Your energy could be spent in other ways that would probably effect far greater satisfaction in regards to your goals.

A symbol is nothing more than what you make of it, and you will make of it what you will.

[Iván Chavero]

It's just a logo man!!

I'm from México but i kind of familiarized with the pollitical correctness that some part of the US citizens practice. It is good in a sense, but sometimes it just goes too far. Your mail looks like if it was taken out from a joke from a cherokee stand up comedian. It's so irrelevant compared to the fact that those guys are living in reservations because the white man invaded thier lands.
If you care that much about the rights of american indians you should be pleading for the return of the land to their rightfull owners (and since you'll be doing that you sould plead also for the return of Texas, California and Nuevo México to México).

Or at least you could donate your efforts to the cherokee nation web site (cherokee.org) in order to migrate them to a more robust platform than windows 2003 server with IIS (Linux + Cherokee perhaps?)

Really, you should be doing more interesting things with your time, instead of whining about how offensive the logo is, you sould design one that  you consider not offensive and send it to the mailing list. this is free sowftware ain't it?


El 08/10/10 10:06, Zachary Krebs escribió:

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[Zachary Krebs]

That is a good point, I will consider a patch or consider donating to someone to make a logo redesign.

Sincerely,

Zachary Krebs

Voice:(541) 708-1163
Skype: ZacharyKrebs

["Péter, Donka"]

Enough of this offtopic spam. You cant do better things but flood a technical mailing list this foolish thing? Man.. this is awful!

-- 
Üdvözlettel
Donka Péter

[Iván Chavero]

I Totally agree

El 08/10/10 12:04, "Péter, Donka" escribió:

 Enough of this offtopic spam. You cant do better things but flood a technical mailing list this foolish thing? Man.. this is awful!

2010.10.08. 19:39 keltezéssel, Zachary Krebs írta:

Its not destructive to say that the branding of a particular GOOD product is culturally insensitive. If all you care about is the code, and how the product works, then why is this such a big issue that can not be reflected on? Instead of silencing the issue, we should review it and see if there is anything we can do to make a win-win. Its easy to move on and ignore such things, but there is now a pattern of web-server products using this kind of consciousness. Its constructive to point out that perhaps you, and perhaps the people involved in the project have not fully considered the implications of their actions. Or rather, you do not choose to look at them because you do not value the perspective that it could be considered offensive to someone. Being sensitive to how other people think/feel means forgoing your own logical ability for a moment, and understanding their place. Obviously the product does not make any reference to the cultural heritage of the Cherokee people. Then, logically, there is no need to represent the people by using their name or a caricature of their people? If you ignore this logic, then there might be a flaw in the whole concept of using "logic" to streamroll through these issues.

Sincerely,

Zachary Krebs

Voice:(541) 708-1163
Skype: ZacharyKrebs




On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Max Countryman <ma...@me.com <mailto:ma...@me.com>> wrote:

    I would strongly suggest you concentrate your efforts on
    constructive rather than destructive activities.

    Had the Cherokee Webserver Project made claims about the cultural
    identity of the Cherokee People I think you would have some ground
    to stand on. But they don't, never have, and most likely never
    will. You're trying to create an issue where there isn't one,
    choosing to take offense to something in illogical way by using
    logical fallacies and misleading rationalizations.

    Finally you want to appeal to the community to experience how you
    feel, to consider your emotional response. I'm sorry to say: only
    you can make the choice to react to something, you have only
    yourself to hold accountable, no one else.


    On Oct 8, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Zachary Krebs wrote:

    I can see that there is very little receptivity around this
    topic. That is fine. I would suggest that instead of using your
    brain like a hammer to approach every issue, consider how this

    might/ feel /to someone. As we have also learned, the mind is not

    the only source of intelligence. Looking at things with open
    perceptive lenses, we can see faults and correct them, without
    defending our actions. Its easy to twist logic to support
    something, but its harder to understand and trust others.
    Sincerely,

    Zachary Krebs

    Voice:(541) 708-1163
    Skype: ZacharyKrebs




    On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Max Countryman <ma...@me.com

        Cher...@lists.octality.com <mailto:Cher...@lists.octality.com>
        http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

        _______________________________________________
        Cherokee mailing list
        Cher...@lists.octality.com <mailto:Cher...@lists.octality.com>
        http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

    _______________________________________________
    Cherokee mailing list
    Cher...@lists.octality.com <mailto:Cher...@lists.octality.com>

    http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee



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[Jędrzej Nowak]

I generally don't get your allegations about Cherokee Server logo
Zachary... It's completelly ridiculous for me...

++ for Ivan mail...

Pozdrawiam
Jędrzej Nowak

[Max Countryman]

I would like to second this. At this point it's become spam. The author of this post is effectively trolling by posting off-topic in what seems to be nothing more than an attempt to incite conflict. They ignore rebuttals and carry on with poorly construed pedantic platitudes. The only aim of which can be concluded to be perpetuation of conflict.

[Zachary Krebs]

I will be posting this thread elsewhere and let the greater FOSS world decide on this topic, because its clear that the community here is not open to the idea. 

Sincerely,

Zachary Krebs

Voice:(541) 708-1163
Skype: ZacharyKrebs

[Jędrzej Nowak]

What the hell are you taliking about? That's a LOGO of a project...
what the hell it has to the "murdered/force-relocated" peoples ?
Mate... first think, then write. I'm from Poland. Yes this is country
which was even removed from the world map (by Germans, and Russians
mostly). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland . Russians
during the world wars killed most of our intelligence, army generals
etc. Do I have something "about" it to the Germans / Russians ? Nope.
There was even http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyfikacja_na_ziemiach_polskich
. So please don't say "shit" about 'coultures' etc.

Btw. The new OpenSolaris fork is called OpenIndiana => here you have
their mailing lists:
http://openindiana.org/getting-involved/mailing-list/

Greetings,
Jędrzej Nowak

[Vladimir Smagin]

we are not devils. just people like you. history is history. poland was
key to europe. now we all live in peace.

--

[Jędrzej Nowak]

Vladimir sure... I have nothing against Russians or Germans :) As you
said.. that's history.

Greetings,
Jędrzej Nowak

[Alejandro Barrera]

On Friday 08 October 2010 20:02:10 Iván Chavero wrote:
> If you care that much about the rights of american indians you should be
> pleading for the return of the land to their rightfull owners (and since
> you'll be doing that you sould plead also for the return of Texas,
> California and Nuevo México to México).

Now if we are just feeding the troll, please Iván, return the lands to Spain after you recover them from them :P

Me aka Spanish imperialist hahaha

;)

--
Founder @ Inkzee.com
http://www.twitter.com/abarrera
http://www.twitter.com/inkzee

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[Serg Smirnov]

"Good luck."

Serg Smirnov
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[Gunnar Wolf]

Zachary Krebs dijo [Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 11:04:18AM -0700]:

> That is a good point, I will consider a patch or consider donating to
> someone to make a logo redesign.

While I do agree that the Hiawatha Webserver's logo _does_ show a
seemingly dumb and very objectionable logo, that cannot be said about
Cherokee's. Nothing in Cherokee's logo seems objectionable to me, or
to any other person who has spoken about it as far as I can tell. At
most, I would understand if you (are you a Cherokee or member of an
originary group?) tightly associate the red, white and blue colors (as
in the US flag) with bloodshed and destruction.

The web servers are not named after indigenous cultures, as you say,
"for no reason" - There is a cultural reason in our geeky collective
minds, that is, doing a similar work to the one that heavily
popularized Apache, which is a word game for "a patchy webserver". If
you deem hacker culture as silly/stupid... I will understand it, as
many people do. But we have the right of being silly and stupid, while
making no offence to any other culture.