D*Star vs Fusion for WCF EMCOMM
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Joe Tomasone
Aug 25, 2015, 3:45:05 PM8/25/15
to carsha...@googlegroups.com, TARC group
I'm looking to make a decision as to which system to invest (more) in.. Anyone have thoughts as to which system will be more used in EMCOMM here in WCF in the future? From what I can tell, there are roughly the same number of repeaters active on each in the area.
73, Joe AB2M
Joe Tomasone
Aug 25, 2015, 4:09:34 PM8/25/15
to mfle...@abbx.net, carsha...@googlegroups.com, TARC group
Hi Mike,
I'm not looking to answer the question of "which digital mode will reign supreme in ham radio" - just which is more likely to be used for EMCOMM here in WCF. In other words, are there plans to use D*Star or Fusion more than the other -- should someone active in EMCOMM consider purchase of one over the other? Or maybe we have to add DMR, et al, into the mix?
73, Joe AB2M
On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 4:05 PM, <mfle...@abbx.net> wrote:
The real answer is likely wide band FM ..Dstar and Fusion will be used where they are available and fit the need but most hams still have and as a default mode will still use FM.If one digital mode will eclipse others is a question that we will only answer as the hobby evolves into a digital friendly place so time will tell...73MikeNI4M
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Ron Wright
Aug 25, 2015, 5:41:55 PM8/25/15
to Joe Tomasone, CARS group, TARC group
Joe,
I assume you are talking about digital voice.
In WCF you can probably count on your 2 hands the number of Hams that have DSTAR rigs and same for Fusion and less for DMR or other digital modes. The fact is there are only 2 Ham Radio digital voice modes, DSTAR and Fusion and DSTAR has 12 years head start. Fusion is growing only because of Yaesu's willing to sell their repeaters cheap, $500, but most Hams are not willing to fork out $500 for a rig. It is the chicken and egg.
What is more of interest for EmComm is the ability of an EOC and others to make contact thru the GateWay on a DSTAR repeater in another area. Be able to say make contact with distant stations and services thur a repeater like in Orlando or Ocala which hopefully will be out of the affected area. The local users will still be using analog. Some EOCs are supplying the Ham side with a DSTAR rig like a ID880H for this. Since all DSTAR and Fusion rigs also work on analog these rigs can serve multiple purposes in an EOC when needed. Of course same can be done in analog and interfaces like EchoLink, AllStar or IRLP.
But if looking for a digital mode repeater DSTAR would probably give you the most service now. Fusion is good mode, but no internet interconnect except for some linking into it with wires-X. Yaesu has not put into their repeaters this, but keep talking about it, but that is all.
As for other modes all the manuf have their own digital and one must often by the manufs radio to work it. P25 is widely used in commercial, but radios can be expensive and nothing for Hams. There are DMR tune and talk type rigs, but few users and repeaters.
A DSTAR repeater can cost upwards of $4000 for one band. Fusion $1000, but again few users and no internet for linking to outside world. There was an effort a few years back to install DSTAR systems in local hospitals, but this effort died due to people issues. Now about the only thing found is a mobile in the hospital's attic.
If wanting keyboard type digital most use analog rig with computer and programs like FLDigi. These work well and easy to install. DSTAR and Fusion do provide keyboard work in their rigs and data stream, but not used much. DSTAR can provide some powerful digital at higher speeds, but is on 1.2GHz where even less activity is found.
73, ron, n9ee/r a know code Extra
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:45:04 -0400
I assume you are talking about digital voice.
In WCF you can probably count on your 2 hands the number of Hams that have DSTAR rigs and same for Fusion and less for DMR or other digital modes. The fact is there are only 2 Ham Radio digital voice modes, DSTAR and Fusion and DSTAR has 12 years head start. Fusion is growing only because of Yaesu's willing to sell their repeaters cheap, $500, but most Hams are not willing to fork out $500 for a rig. It is the chicken and egg.
What is more of interest for EmComm is the ability of an EOC and others to make contact thru the GateWay on a DSTAR repeater in another area. Be able to say make contact with distant stations and services thur a repeater like in Orlando or Ocala which hopefully will be out of the affected area. The local users will still be using analog. Some EOCs are supplying the Ham side with a DSTAR rig like a ID880H for this. Since all DSTAR and Fusion rigs also work on analog these rigs can serve multiple purposes in an EOC when needed. Of course same can be done in analog and interfaces like EchoLink, AllStar or IRLP.
But if looking for a digital mode repeater DSTAR would probably give you the most service now. Fusion is good mode, but no internet interconnect except for some linking into it with wires-X. Yaesu has not put into their repeaters this, but keep talking about it, but that is all.
As for other modes all the manuf have their own digital and one must often by the manufs radio to work it. P25 is widely used in commercial, but radios can be expensive and nothing for Hams. There are DMR tune and talk type rigs, but few users and repeaters.
A DSTAR repeater can cost upwards of $4000 for one band. Fusion $1000, but again few users and no internet for linking to outside world. There was an effort a few years back to install DSTAR systems in local hospitals, but this effort died due to people issues. Now about the only thing found is a mobile in the hospital's attic.
If wanting keyboard type digital most use analog rig with computer and programs like FLDigi. These work well and easy to install. DSTAR and Fusion do provide keyboard work in their rigs and data stream, but not used much. DSTAR can provide some powerful digital at higher speeds, but is on 1.2GHz where even less activity is found.
73, ron, n9ee/r a know code Extra
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:45:04 -0400
Subject: [TARC] D*Star vs Fusion for WCF EMCOMM
I'm looking to make a decision as to which system to invest (more) in.. Anyone have thoughts as to which system will be more used in EMCOMM here in WCF in the future? From what I can tell, there are roughly the same number of repeaters active on each in the area.
73, Joe AB2M
Bruce Kreutzer
Aug 25, 2015, 5:50:25 PM8/25/15
to CARS List, Joe Tomasone, TARC group
Joe-
If it makes a difference, Pinellas County has dstar in the EOC, but not the others.
I assume that you are asking about user radios, not repeaters.
For most of WCF, the digital mode of choice is mostly WinLink, not voice.
As others have already said, the most available mode (wide FM on 2 meters) is most likely going to be used by the largest number of people.
Now, knowing what I have seen you carry in the past, if you are looking to setup a mobile field kit to use for a field camp, I would suggest that you go with a flexible multi-mode radio which can connect via a laptop hf or vhf digital, or voice.
Personally, I recently chose an Icom IC-7100. It's too soon to tell if it will do all of what I would want, but I'll try to let the group(s) know.
Bruce
KI4CPZ
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Paul Knupke
Aug 25, 2015, 5:53:01 PM8/25/15
to carsha...@googlegroups.com, Joe Tomasone, TARC group
Ron,
You have dismissed Kenwood Nexedge and ICOM NXDN digital.
73,
Paul – N4PK
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Ron Wright
Aug 25, 2015, 7:31:17 PM8/25/15
to CARS group, Joe Tomasone, TARC group
Paul, just about every manuf has it's own digital voice mode and requires buying their radios. I did talk about this.
The Kenwood and ICOM and others, Yaesu with P25 modes are for their own systems and I would not encourage anyone to go with them. Think few users now on DSTAR and Fusion where one can buy a rig and out of the box have it setup and ready, even fewer on these proprietary manufs modes. Seems most of the commercial modes are to force the customer into a manuf's product.
At least DSTAR and probably with Fusion there are lots of 3rd party products.
The Kenwood and ICOM and others, Yaesu with P25 modes are for their own systems and I would not encourage anyone to go with them. Think few users now on DSTAR and Fusion where one can buy a rig and out of the box have it setup and ready, even fewer on these proprietary manufs modes. Seems most of the commercial modes are to force the customer into a manuf's product.
At least DSTAR and probably with Fusion there are lots of 3rd party products.
73, ron, n9ee/r a know code Extra
From: pa...@tampabay.rr.com
To: carsha...@googlegroups.com; j...@tomasone.com; ta...@hamclub.org
Subject: RE: [CARSHamRadio] RE: [TARC] D*Star vs Fusion for WCF EMCOMM
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:52:55 -0400
Paul Knupke
Aug 25, 2015, 7:35:45 PM8/25/15
to carsha...@googlegroups.com, Joe Tomasone, TARC group
Ron,
Thanks for your response and views!
Paul Toth-NB9X
Aug 25, 2015, 8:06:00 PM8/25/15
to carsha...@googlegroups.com, Joe Tomasone, TARC group
Ron....
You are incorrect with your statements and ascertions
below. P25 Phase I and Phase II are APCO standards that numerous radio
manufacturers are supporting and the Department of Homeland Security is
certifying.. P25 radios operate on VHF, UHF, 700 MHz and 800 MHz and are
designed to provide Public Safety, in particular, with a high degree of digital
voice and messaging interoperability.
At the same time, NXDN is another "digital radio standard"
with portable and mobile radios available from ICOM, Kenwood and Alinco.
ICOM and Kenwood also manufacture repeaters. These radios are fully
interoperable in conventional (non-trunking mode) as evidenced daily on the
NI4CE NXDN Repeater on 444.425 and dozens of other ICOM and Kenwood repeaters
nationwide. The NXDN Forum has published an open standard for radio
manufacturers as well as providers of test equipment and other related
items. There are currently over two dozen manufacturers who are part of
the NXDN Forum.
DMR is yet another digital standard that utilizes a two
slot TDMA modulation schema. Companies including Motorola, Hytera, and
Tait manufacture product to meet this standard.
ICOM is the only radio manufacturer producing radios and
repeaters to the D-Star specification, a variant on the JARL
specification. There are, however, D-Star vocoder dongles that provide
several other ways to connect to a D-Star user over IP.
If anything, Yaseau's FUSION is the "one off". The
C4FM Fushion specification, at present, is solely supported by
Yaseu.
For the sake of full disclosure, I am the ICOM Land
Mobile Radio Manufacturer's Representative in the State of Florida and work with
dozens of customers and ICOM dealers around the state.
73 de Paul-NB9X
----- Original Message -----From: Ron Wright
Ron Wright
Aug 26, 2015, 12:10:31 PM8/26/15
to Lu Romero, CARS group, Joe Tomasone, TARC group
Lu,
That was very good and informative, thanks.
Although there are advantages to digital voice over analog there are draw backs as well. But for Ham Radio and EmComm one needs to talk to the masses and the masses are still using analog as you said. Just DSTAR and eventually Fusion can enhance some EmComm functions. I do see other digital voice modes as not going anywhere until the Ham communities see what digital can do and prices come way down.
Most that get into DSTAR or Fusion do so as an experiment and trying new things, one of the great things we as Hams can do.
I often hear Hams stay they want a rig that does it all, all the digital and analog modes. Now that would sell, hi.
That was very good and informative, thanks.
Although there are advantages to digital voice over analog there are draw backs as well. But for Ham Radio and EmComm one needs to talk to the masses and the masses are still using analog as you said. Just DSTAR and eventually Fusion can enhance some EmComm functions. I do see other digital voice modes as not going anywhere until the Ham communities see what digital can do and prices come way down.
Most that get into DSTAR or Fusion do so as an experiment and trying new things, one of the great things we as Hams can do.
I often hear Hams stay they want a rig that does it all, all the digital and analog modes. Now that would sell, hi.
73, ron, n9ee/r a know code Extra
CC: carsha...@googlegroups.com; j...@tomasone.com; ta...@hamclub.org
From: lro...@ij.net
Subject: Re: [CARSHamRadio] RE: [TARC] D*Star vs Fusion for WCF EMCOMM
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:51:09 -0400
To: mcc...@tampabay.rr.com
Joe:
For once, I'm in complete agreement with Mr Wright and Mr Fletcher.
There is not enough of a critical mass of users withe any of these digital modulation standards to add value vs good old analog wideband FM. The issue is mostly cost and their proprietary nature.
With the advent of $11 dual band 2 watt handheld transceivers and other rather sophisticated analog FM equipment from China ( don't laugh at the 11 dollar rigs... I have one, and I am amazed at how well it works and how ruggedly it is built!) spending $500 on a handheld, like I did several years ago for a DStar rig, is not rational.
In voice communications (not data), using IRLP or EchoLink, there is nothing I can do in digital that I cannot do in analog at much better capital to performance ratios.
Data is another story. DStar at 1.2 Gig is killer for that... But that is even more expensive for users.
While things like Fuzion's camera features are nice to have, they are not paramount for the application.
I expect most of those give-away at rock bottom prices Yaesu Fuzion repeaters will run in AMS mode repeating Baofeng or Wouxun analog signals.
73
Lu-W4LT
I'm using an IPad. It decides how things should be spelled.
I'm using an IPad. It decides how things should be spelled.
Daniel McDonald
Aug 28, 2015, 10:56:56 PM8/28/15
to carsha...@googlegroups.com
Perhaps the main reason I picked D-STAR for the city of Tampa several years ago was the ability to use this mode for data communications. For example, if you are sending a list of shelter occupants, sending via a digital mode will be much quicker and reliable than voice.
I currently also use NXDN/IDAS but I don't foresee any digital voice mode gaining critical mass for quite a while.
73 Dan ka2toc
Joe Tomasone
Aug 28, 2015, 11:01:22 PM8/28/15
to carsha...@googlegroups.com
Dan, you bring up the part of the question I simply failed to articulate. There was much ado about using D*Star to move data as well as voice traffic, but it's a one-or-the-other thing. Fusion apparently allows you to do full voice, half voice/half data, or full data. I thought that might be more attractive for things like shelter operations since one radio could (as I understand it) handle both tasks simultaneously.
Daniel McDonald
Aug 28, 2015, 11:38:34 PM8/28/15
to carsha...@googlegroups.com
Joe,
You bring up some good points. My plan is to use d-star for data and analog for voice communications since it can't do both simultaneously (we have dual vfo IC-2820's).
The new modes, such as Fusion, may be better than d-star however it may require getting a bunch of radios so that location is covered. It seems right now there is a format war, along the lines of VHS or betamax, with no clear winner yet.
Definitely an interesting discussion.
73 Dan ka2toc
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