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IDOX planning software
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DR de Lacey
Aug 30, 2018, 6:58:11 PM8/30/18
to
A few months ago there was an interesting thread about the City's
planning software IDOX, and how it used non-persistent urls for document
retrieval. I gather it is a (probably not very clever) security measure
as the database also contains sensitive data.
Now I'm being consulted on the possibility of South Cambs moving from its
system (APAS) to IDOX, and I would be extremely interested in comments
from anyone who has used IDOX about its weaknesses (and strengths
possibly). This could be an opportunity to put pressure on the company to
provide improvements. My own feeling at present is that anything must be
better than APAS. I'll be grateful for all comments; the more technical
the better.
Douglas de Lacey (SCDC Councillor but writing as a private individual)
planning software IDOX, and how it used non-persistent urls for document
retrieval. I gather it is a (probably not very clever) security measure
as the database also contains sensitive data.
Now I'm being consulted on the possibility of South Cambs moving from its
system (APAS) to IDOX, and I would be extremely interested in comments
from anyone who has used IDOX about its weaknesses (and strengths
possibly). This could be an opportunity to put pressure on the company to
provide improvements. My own feeling at present is that anything must be
better than APAS. I'll be grateful for all comments; the more technical
the better.
Douglas de Lacey (SCDC Councillor but writing as a private individual)
Roland Perry
Aug 30, 2018, 7:36:40 PM8/30/18
to
In message <KYt*q+...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 19:58:08 on Thu,
30 Aug 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
many others elsewhere in the country
The problem is you can't send someone a url for one of the possibly
hundreds of documents in a planning application that you think they
might be interested in. They have to start their own search from first
principles.
>I gather it is a (probably not very clever) security measure
>as the database also contains sensitive data.
Why would there be data about the religion, sexuality etc of planning
applicants?
--
Roland Perry
30 Aug 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>A few months ago there was an interesting thread about the City's
>planning software IDOX, and how it used non-persistent urls for document
>retrieval.
East Cambs uses it too, I think, as another very local authority, but
>planning software IDOX, and how it used non-persistent urls for document
>retrieval.
many others elsewhere in the country
The problem is you can't send someone a url for one of the possibly
hundreds of documents in a planning application that you think they
might be interested in. They have to start their own search from first
principles.
>I gather it is a (probably not very clever) security measure
>as the database also contains sensitive data.
applicants?
--
Roland Perry
Alan Jones
Aug 30, 2018, 8:24:17 PM8/30/18
to
On 30/08/2018 20:29, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <KYt*q+...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 19:58:08 on Thu,
> 30 Aug 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>> A few months ago there was an interesting thread about the City's
>> planning software IDOX, and how it used non-persistent urls for document
>> retrieval.
>
> East Cambs uses it too, I think, as another very local authority, but
> many others elsewhere in the country
>
> The problem is you can't send someone a url for one of the possibly
> hundreds of documents in a planning application that you think they
> might be interested in. They have to start their own search from first
> principles.
>
>> I gather it is a (probably not very clever) security measure
>> as the database also contains sensitive data
I agree with you Douglas, it does not seem very clever. If I can
> In message <KYt*q+...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 19:58:08 on Thu,
> 30 Aug 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>> A few months ago there was an interesting thread about the City's
>> planning software IDOX, and how it used non-persistent urls for document
>> retrieval.
>
> East Cambs uses it too, I think, as another very local authority, but
> many others elsewhere in the country
>
> The problem is you can't send someone a url for one of the possibly
> hundreds of documents in a planning application that you think they
> might be interested in. They have to start their own search from first
> principles.
>
>> I gather it is a (probably not very clever) security measure
>> as the database also contains sensitive data
reliably search for the specific document, I could write some selenium
calls to do that for me, and distribute those to others instead of a
direct link. I can also capture copies of whatever is displayed and
distribute that, in case they later remove the documents.
How do non-persistent URLs make it more secure? Are they trying to hide
the documents from robots that spot URLs in emails? Or something else?
Sounds more like a mistake than a deliberate feature.
Alan Jones
Mark Goodge
Aug 30, 2018, 9:05:57 PM8/30/18
to
On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:24:16 +0100, Alan Jones <ajn...@exospan.com>
wrote:
The main issue is copyright. For practical reasons, planning
applications often include high-resolution extracts from OS maps,
which have expensive licence fees attached for reproduction. OS
insists that any use of their non-open data maps on the web is done in
such a way as to make it impossible to download them without first
acknowledging their copyright.
A secondary reason is to make it hard for people to comment on
planning applications without being at least aware of all the relevent
documents. Allowing direct linking to a specific document
significantly increases the prospect of people submitting comments
that are, at least, ill-informed if not completely misguided. So,
while linking to a specific application is fine, linking directly to
documents within it is discourage.
>Sounds more like a mistake than a deliberate feature.
No, it's definitely deliberate.
Mark
wrote:
applications often include high-resolution extracts from OS maps,
which have expensive licence fees attached for reproduction. OS
insists that any use of their non-open data maps on the web is done in
such a way as to make it impossible to download them without first
acknowledging their copyright.
A secondary reason is to make it hard for people to comment on
planning applications without being at least aware of all the relevent
documents. Allowing direct linking to a specific document
significantly increases the prospect of people submitting comments
that are, at least, ill-informed if not completely misguided. So,
while linking to a specific application is fine, linking directly to
documents within it is discourage.
>Sounds more like a mistake than a deliberate feature.
Mark
DR de Lacey
Aug 31, 2018, 6:29:40 AM8/31/18
to
On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 22:05:49 +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:24:16 +0100, Alan Jones <ajn...@exospan.com>
> wrote:
>>How do non-persistent URLs make it more secure? Are they trying to hide
>>the documents from robots that spot URLs in emails? Or something else?
>
> The main issue is copyright.
No; at least that's not what I'm told. And since APAS at SCDC does use
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:24:16 +0100, Alan Jones <ajn...@exospan.com>
> wrote:
>>How do non-persistent URLs make it more secure? Are they trying to hide
>>the documents from robots that spot URLs in emails? Or something else?
>
> The main issue is copyright.
persistent urls for the documents, I'm inclined to believe it. To answer
Roland: it's not the religion of the applicants, it is that other parts
of the database contain personal info. My informant was himself somewhat
confused as to the logic but was clear that's what the creators of IDOX
maintain. He agrees though that the resultant error message needs re-
writing, and if possible with a link to the (persistent) url of the
application.
Douglas de Lacey
Roland Perry
Aug 31, 2018, 7:21:59 AM8/31/18
to
In message <r6f*uG...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 07:29:37 on Fri,
31 Aug 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
AFAIK, planning law doesn't allow people to submit applications
anonymously, although if people wish to obscure their identity they can
always use a planning consultancy to submit the application.
>My informant was himself somewhat
>confused as to the logic but was clear that's what the creators of IDOX
>maintain. He agrees though that the resultant error message needs re-
>writing, and if possible with a link to the (persistent) url of the
>application.
>
>Douglas de Lacey
>
>
--
Roland Perry
31 Aug 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 22:05:49 +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:24:16 +0100, Alan Jones <ajn...@exospan.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>How do non-persistent URLs make it more secure? Are they trying to hide
>>>the documents from robots that spot URLs in emails? Or something else?
>>
>> The main issue is copyright.
>
>No; at least that's not what I'm told. And since APAS at SCDC does use
>persistent urls for the documents, I'm inclined to believe it. To answer
>Roland: it's not the religion of the applicants, it is that other parts
>of the database contain personal info.
You mentioned sensitive [personal] data. That's things like religion.
>
>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:24:16 +0100, Alan Jones <ajn...@exospan.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>How do non-persistent URLs make it more secure? Are they trying to hide
>>>the documents from robots that spot URLs in emails? Or something else?
>>
>> The main issue is copyright.
>
>No; at least that's not what I'm told. And since APAS at SCDC does use
>persistent urls for the documents, I'm inclined to believe it. To answer
>Roland: it's not the religion of the applicants, it is that other parts
>of the database contain personal info.
AFAIK, planning law doesn't allow people to submit applications
anonymously, although if people wish to obscure their identity they can
always use a planning consultancy to submit the application.
>My informant was himself somewhat
>confused as to the logic but was clear that's what the creators of IDOX
>maintain. He agrees though that the resultant error message needs re-
>writing, and if possible with a link to the (persistent) url of the
>application.
>
>Douglas de Lacey
>
>
Roland Perry
Theo
Aug 31, 2018, 9:10:19 AM8/31/18
to
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> A secondary reason is to make it hard for people to comment on
> planning applications without being at least aware of all the relevent
> documents. Allowing direct linking to a specific document
> significantly increases the prospect of people submitting comments
> that are, at least, ill-informed if not completely misguided. So,
> while linking to a specific application is fine, linking directly to
> documents within it is discourage.
The solution to that would be to have the link redirect to the main page for
> A secondary reason is to make it hard for people to comment on
> planning applications without being at least aware of all the relevent
> documents. Allowing direct linking to a specific document
> significantly increases the prospect of people submitting comments
> that are, at least, ill-informed if not completely misguided. So,
> while linking to a specific application is fine, linking directly to
> documents within it is discourage.
the application.
So instead of saying 'go to www.council.gov.uk and search for 18/12345/FUL'
the link to any of the resources would redirect to
planning.council.gov.uk/applications/18-12345-FUL
or wherever the system keeps the head page for that application.
(possibly with some horrible UUID). Bonus marks for using a #suffix so it
highlights the particular attachment being linked.
Just 403ing the direct links doesn't help anyone.
Theo
Roland Perry
Aug 31, 2018, 10:10:08 AM8/31/18
to
In message <jmmgodt2u5i44i2fh...@4ax.com>, at 22:05:49 on
Thu, 30 Aug 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>A secondary reason is to make it hard for people to comment on
>planning applications without being at least aware of all the relevent
>documents.
Doesn't seem to stop fragments appearing on lamp-posts etc in the
locality of the proposed development. Allowing that, but not online
fragments is tantamount to media illiteracy.
>Allowing direct linking to a specific document significantly increases
>the prospect of people submitting comments that are, at least,
>ill-informed if not completely misguided.
Alternatively, it allows people to be alerted to an aspect of a proposal
which they might think it worth submitting a comment about. If they do
that out-of-context it's not a good enough reason the create a chilling
effect upon the whole consultation process.
--
Roland Perry
Thu, 30 Aug 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>A secondary reason is to make it hard for people to comment on
>planning applications without being at least aware of all the relevent
>documents.
locality of the proposed development. Allowing that, but not online
fragments is tantamount to media illiteracy.
>Allowing direct linking to a specific document significantly increases
>the prospect of people submitting comments that are, at least,
>ill-informed if not completely misguided.
which they might think it worth submitting a comment about. If they do
that out-of-context it's not a good enough reason the create a chilling
effect upon the whole consultation process.
--
Roland Perry
DR de Lacey
Sep 1, 2018, 6:47:22 AM9/1/18
to
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:19:18 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <r6f*uG...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 07:29:37 on Fri,
> 31 Aug 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>>On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 22:05:49 +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:24:16 +0100, Alan Jones <ajn...@exospan.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>How do non-persistent URLs make it more secure? Are they trying to
>>>>hide the documents from robots that spot URLs in emails? Or something
>>>>else?
>>>
>>> The main issue is copyright.
>>
>>No; at least that's not what I'm told. And since APAS at SCDC does use
>>persistent urls for the documents, I'm inclined to believe it. To answer
>>Roland: it's not the religion of the applicants, it is that other parts
>>of the database contain personal info.
>
> You mentioned sensitive [personal] data. That's things like religion.
Yes, but the database doesn't only hold planning apps and responses.
> In message <r6f*uG...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 07:29:37 on Fri,
> 31 Aug 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>>On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 22:05:49 +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:24:16 +0100, Alan Jones <ajn...@exospan.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>How do non-persistent URLs make it more secure? Are they trying to
>>>>hide the documents from robots that spot URLs in emails? Or something
>>>>else?
>>>
>>> The main issue is copyright.
>>
>>No; at least that's not what I'm told. And since APAS at SCDC does use
>>persistent urls for the documents, I'm inclined to believe it. To answer
>>Roland: it's not the religion of the applicants, it is that other parts
>>of the database contain personal info.
>
> You mentioned sensitive [personal] data. That's things like religion.
Douglas de Lacey
Roland Perry
Sep 1, 2018, 7:16:57 AM9/1/18
to
In message <3Jr*91...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 07:47:19 on Sat,
1 Sep 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>>>>>How do non-persistent URLs make it more secure? Are they trying to
>>>>>hide the documents from robots that spot URLs in emails? Or something
>>>>>else?
>>>>
>>>> The main issue is copyright.
>>>
>>>No; at least that's not what I'm told. And since APAS at SCDC does use
>>>persistent urls for the documents, I'm inclined to believe it. To answer
>>>Roland: it's not the religion of the applicants, it is that other parts
>>>of the database contain personal info.
>>
>> You mentioned sensitive [personal] data. That's things like religion.
>
>Yes, but the database doesn't only hold planning apps and responses.
As its function is a database of planning applications (including
responses) I wonder what this extra material might be.
--
Roland Perry
1 Sep 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>>>>>How do non-persistent URLs make it more secure? Are they trying to
>>>>>hide the documents from robots that spot URLs in emails? Or something
>>>>>else?
>>>>
>>>> The main issue is copyright.
>>>
>>>No; at least that's not what I'm told. And since APAS at SCDC does use
>>>persistent urls for the documents, I'm inclined to believe it. To answer
>>>Roland: it's not the religion of the applicants, it is that other parts
>>>of the database contain personal info.
>>
>> You mentioned sensitive [personal] data. That's things like religion.
>
>Yes, but the database doesn't only hold planning apps and responses.
responses) I wonder what this extra material might be.
--
Roland Perry
Mark Goodge
Sep 1, 2018, 8:31:08 AM9/1/18
to
On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 08:04:06 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:
Applications for Listed Building consent may need to be justified by
reference to specific needs of a building's occupants - for example,
disability requiring adjustments to the building's design. That's
sensitive personal data. Data related to identifiable individuals with
respect to places of worship and ancillary buildings (eg, a manse or
presbytery) is sensitive personal data. The fact that everybody knows
the Catholic priest is a Catholic doesn't make his religion any less
sensitive from a legal perspective, daft though that may appear.
Mark
wrote:
reference to specific needs of a building's occupants - for example,
disability requiring adjustments to the building's design. That's
sensitive personal data. Data related to identifiable individuals with
respect to places of worship and ancillary buildings (eg, a manse or
presbytery) is sensitive personal data. The fact that everybody knows
the Catholic priest is a Catholic doesn't make his religion any less
sensitive from a legal perspective, daft though that may appear.
Mark
Roland Perry
Sep 1, 2018, 10:15:50 AM9/1/18
to
In message <6bjkod5q0qu6p0jbj...@4ax.com>, at 09:30:58 on
Sat, 1 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
Documents with that data in them are either public or they are not. If
they are public (eg could also be read by going to the council office)
then they have to be available online too. If they aren't public, then
problem solved.
I don't know if planning law allows redactions from public documents on
those sorts of grounds or not.
In any event I'd call them "planning applications", and what I was
looking for is stuff on the portal that's "something else".
--
Roland Perry
Sat, 1 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
they are public (eg could also be read by going to the council office)
then they have to be available online too. If they aren't public, then
problem solved.
I don't know if planning law allows redactions from public documents on
those sorts of grounds or not.
In any event I'd call them "planning applications", and what I was
looking for is stuff on the portal that's "something else".
--
Roland Perry
Rupert Moss-Eccardt
Sep 1, 2018, 11:14:00 PM9/1/18
to
Can you tell me where you got that idea from?
There are many documents that have to be public, some even need to be
published but it doesn't mean they have to be online.
Roland Perry
Sep 2, 2018, 7:12:30 AM9/2/18
to
In message <fv0kpl...@mid.individual.net>, at 00:13:56 on Sun, 2 Sep
2018, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <r.moss-...@computer.org> remarked:
>> Documents with that data in them are either public or they are not. If
>> they are public (eg could also be read by going to the council office)
>> then they have to be available online too. If they aren't public, then
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Can you tell me where you got that idea from?
>There are many documents that have to be public, some even need to be
>published but it doesn't mean they have to be online.
In the context of planning documents. I don't think it would be right to
have a pick-and-mix with (say) loft extension applications being online,
but listed building consents not. Or the original applications online
and the council's decision letters not.
--
Roland Perry
2018, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <r.moss-...@computer.org> remarked:
>> Documents with that data in them are either public or they are not. If
>> they are public (eg could also be read by going to the council office)
>> then they have to be available online too. If they aren't public, then
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Can you tell me where you got that idea from?
>There are many documents that have to be public, some even need to be
>published but it doesn't mean they have to be online.
have a pick-and-mix with (say) loft extension applications being online,
but listed building consents not. Or the original applications online
and the council's decision letters not.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Sep 2, 2018, 10:33:55 AM9/2/18
to
In message <H+TUXyOW...@perry.co.uk>, at 11:08:22 on Sat, 1 Sep
2018, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>Documents with that data in them are either public or they are not. If
>they are public (eg could also be read by going to the council office)
>then they have to be available online too. If they aren't public, then
>problem solved.
>
>I don't know if planning law allows redactions from public documents on
>those sorts of grounds or not.
I happened to see a planning notice taped up outside a shop (they were
applying for change of use) today. The notice included a warning that
responses would be published with [just] the signature and phone numbers
redacted. Perhaps just the phone number of the respondent??
I'm tempted to reply saying "A Catholic priest I know who is in a
wheelchair (and the seminary's phone number is xxx) would not approve of
this change of use", and see what gets put on the website!
--
Roland Perry
2018, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>Documents with that data in them are either public or they are not. If
>they are public (eg could also be read by going to the council office)
>then they have to be available online too. If they aren't public, then
>problem solved.
>
>I don't know if planning law allows redactions from public documents on
>those sorts of grounds or not.
applying for change of use) today. The notice included a warning that
responses would be published with [just] the signature and phone numbers
redacted. Perhaps just the phone number of the respondent??
I'm tempted to reply saying "A Catholic priest I know who is in a
wheelchair (and the seminary's phone number is xxx) would not approve of
this change of use", and see what gets put on the website!
--
Roland Perry
DR de Lacey
Sep 3, 2018, 6:37:01 AM9/3/18
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2018 11:08:22 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
> In any event I'd call them "planning applications", and what I was
> looking for is stuff on the portal that's "something else".
Why do you suppose the db is only `planning application'? If it held for
> In any event I'd call them "planning applications", and what I was
> looking for is stuff on the portal that's "something else".
example building control there would be plenty of sensitive info
(accusations of irregularity not yet investigated). To be clear: I don't
know what else is in that db but there is no reason to suppose it is only
planning apps.
Could we now turn to other issues in IDOX? I really would like to know
what you like and dislike about it -- and any improvements made before
SCambs adopts it would also be implemented in the City.
Douglas de Lacey (SCDC Councillor but writing as a private individual).
Roland Perry
Sep 3, 2018, 10:09:39 AM9/3/18
to
In message <PFc*Iw...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 07:36:57 on Mon,
3 Sep 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
in that database (having had to access some building control material
recently). They aren't even regarded as public documents and only the
original applicant can get copies (and only hard copies), as far as I
can tell.
>Could we now turn to other issues in IDOX? I really would like to know
>what you like and dislike about it -- and any improvements made before
>SCambs adopts it would also be implemented in the City.
Three things: the non-persistent urls, the non-persistent urls and the
non-persistent urls
Also (and this may be the fault of the councils rather than IDOX) not
going back more than about ten years (I don't have the exact number but
have frequently been left staring at blankness, knowing there was some
sort of application).
--
Roland Perry
3 Sep 2018, DR de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>On Sat, 01 Sep 2018 11:08:22 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In any event I'd call them "planning applications", and what I was
>> looking for is stuff on the portal that's "something else".
>
>Why do you suppose the db is only `planning application'? If it held for
>example building control there would be plenty of sensitive info
>(accusations of irregularity not yet investigated). To be clear: I don't
>know what else is in that db but there is no reason to suppose it is only
>planning apps.
I think there's every reason to suspect it doesn't have Building Control
>
>> In any event I'd call them "planning applications", and what I was
>> looking for is stuff on the portal that's "something else".
>
>Why do you suppose the db is only `planning application'? If it held for
>example building control there would be plenty of sensitive info
>(accusations of irregularity not yet investigated). To be clear: I don't
>know what else is in that db but there is no reason to suppose it is only
>planning apps.
in that database (having had to access some building control material
recently). They aren't even regarded as public documents and only the
original applicant can get copies (and only hard copies), as far as I
can tell.
>Could we now turn to other issues in IDOX? I really would like to know
>what you like and dislike about it -- and any improvements made before
>SCambs adopts it would also be implemented in the City.
non-persistent urls
Also (and this may be the fault of the councils rather than IDOX) not
going back more than about ten years (I don't have the exact number but
have frequently been left staring at blankness, knowing there was some
sort of application).
--
Roland Perry
Martin
Sep 3, 2018, 12:19:48 PM9/3/18
to
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018, DR de Lacey wrote:
> No; at least that's not what I'm told.
software behaves as it currently does? It would be useful to have this
made public as it constantly the source of speculation.
> My informant was himself somewhat confused as to the logic but was clear
> that's what the creators of IDOX maintain. He agrees though that the
> resultant error message needs re- writing,
persistent URLs if they are considering such a contract. It is totally
ridiculous in the days of social media that you can't simply send someone
a link but have to explain that you have to go to another page first.
As others and I have said, if the reason is copyright or some other
bureaucratic reason, then the page should contain a click through that
when clicked on loads the intended document.
> and if possible with a link to the (persistent) url of the application.
Martin
Martin
Sep 3, 2018, 12:54:28 PM9/3/18
to
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, DR de Lacey wrote:
> Could we now turn to other issues in IDOX? I really would like to know
> what you like and dislike about it -- and any improvements made before
> SCambs adopts it would also be implemented in the City.
unnecessarily hard to scrutinise applications.
Some of these are things that a competent web developer could fix in a few
days' work fairly easily. In general it feels like IDOX don't care about
their product, or they are massively understaffed.
1) The lack of persistent URLs, or more strictly, that you are required to
get the cookie from the opening page of the application first before a
document URL works. I bet this means that officers waste huge amounts of
disk space by re-downloading files, for instance.
2) Critically, the lack of a data feed. This should be an absolute
requirement for modern local government, and should be part of the
requirements that South Cambs have for a newly-commissioned system. It
shouldn't require a project like
http://www.planit.org.uk/planarea/Cambridge/
to fill in the gaps by scraping pages to turn the data into an API that
projects like Cyclescape can then use.
3) In general, crappy, non-hierarchical, non-guessable URLs that tend to
get messed up in e-mails, which feel decidedly non-modern:
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=makeComment&keyVal=MH9VGADX3E000
could be:
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/applications/13/0098/FUL/comments
4) Its slowness. In general it feels like they need to have more servers
and index their database better.
5) The inability for ordinary members of the public to understand what is
presented. Most of the time, for instance, a "Design and Access Statement"
is what is most useful to read, but this is hidden amongst 100+ documents
sometimes. A good, accessible modern approach to displaying planning
applications would show make things easier to understand.
6) The search is completely useless if there are many results for a
street. Try typing in Mill Road here:
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do?action=simple&searchType=Application
A result "Too many results found. Please enter some more parameters." is
not good enough - this should be a paginated result.
7) Search URLs aren't persistent. I searched for Mill Road and got this
URL:
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/simpleSearchResults.do?action=firstPage
8) The search should have search-as-you-type so that people can zoom in on
the correct address quickly. This would avoid the kind of problem where a
search for e.g. "102 Mill Road" comes back with results that include "102
Millington Lane" - autocomplete would get rid of this problem as the user
would see their intention in the drop-down list as they type.
9) In general, the place search isn't very intelligent. A search with an
explicit number like "1 York Street" shouldn't include "21 York Street"
"113 York Street" and many others in it.
10) The map view is just awful and extremely 2005 style. If PlanIt can
turn the data into a useable map on peanuts of money, IDOX certainly can.
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/spatialDisplay.do?action=display&searchType=Application
11) Dates are totally unintelligible, even to people very familiar with
the planning system like me. Can you tell me which is the date I need to
respond to an application by? This one has three dates mentioning
consultation, and they are all different.
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=dates&keyVal=K1W3D0DX04X00
12) There is a still a terrible bug which is that if you do a search and
there is only one result, you are taken to that application but the URL
does not include the application keyVal in it. So sending that link to
someone then fails. However, if you do a search with multiple results in,
each link does give you the keyVal in it obviously. This is pretty basic
stuff. An example try the search term "50, 54, 56 And 58 Lensfield Road"
at:
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/
which will take you directly to
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/simpleSearchResults.do?action=firstPage
which doesn't have the key in. Whereas, "58 Lensfield Road" will give you
a list of results, each of which will then give a persistent link,
including:
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=O6X5ZYDXLMF00&activeTab=summary
which is that "50, 54, 56 And 58 Lensfield Road" one.
13) Linkages between main application and its condition applications are
very poor. This makes it hard to chase up the progress of an application.
14) E-mails in the document list get saved as .eml which I think is an
Outlook-specific format. I can't read them on my system, except by finding
the text in a pile of binary characters surrounding it.
15) There is no linkage to the meeting where an application is being
considered. It surely cannot be difficult for a database structure to list
such an entry. Officer reports are added but not usually agendas/minutes
of meetings, so finding out what was actually debated on an application
generally requires some serious google-fu to link them up.
16) Similarly, I get the sense that S106 agreements are not routinely
added, at least in Cambridge. This may or may not be a function of poor
software, but the software ought to be designed strongly to encourage such
practice.
PS Future Cities Catapult have been funding some interesting work
recently:
https://futurecities.catapult.org.uk/project/future-of-planning/
It's a shame that Local Authorities are still forced to pay for poor
quality products like IDOX's current offering.
Bugs like the above have been known about for a very long time now - see
the comments at:
http://www.rtaylor.co.uk/publicaccess-planning.html
so it would be good to have a Council in a tech-aware area using some
leverage and taking a more activist approach on this to get these problems
addressed at long last.
Martin
Mark Goodge
Sep 3, 2018, 1:45:02 PM9/3/18
to
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 13:54:26 +0100, Martin <mv...@remove.cam.ac.uk>
wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, DR de Lacey wrote:
>
>> Could we now turn to other issues in IDOX? I really would like to know
>> what you like and dislike about it -- and any improvements made before
>> SCambs adopts it would also be implemented in the City.
>
>See below for a non-exhaustive list of problems, which make it
>unnecessarily hard to scrutinise applications.
Some of these are criticisms of the planning system itself, rather
than the software.
>Some of these are things that a competent web developer could fix in a few
>days' work fairly easily. In general it feels like IDOX don't care about
>their product, or they are massively understaffed.
One of the problems is that the public website is merely a front-end
to the internal database. That's desirable, for a number of reasons -
it means that the content that the officers see and the public see is
identical, and you never have issues with documents being missing from
one side or the other. But it's also what tends to cause problems with
server capacity.
>2) Critically, the lack of a data feed. This should be an absolute
>requirement for modern local government, and should be part of the
>requirements that South Cambs have for a newly-commissioned system. It
>shouldn't require a project like
>http://www.planit.org.uk/planarea/Cambridge/
>to fill in the gaps by scraping pages to turn the data into an API that
>projects like Cyclescape can then use.
Realistically, you're not going to get that until the government
mandates it.
>5) The inability for ordinary members of the public to understand what is
>presented. Most of the time, for instance, a "Design and Access Statement"
>is what is most useful to read, but this is hidden amongst 100+ documents
>sometimes. A good, accessible modern approach to displaying planning
>applications would show make things easier to understand.
This is very much an issue with the planning system. As far as the
legality of it, and as far as those who work professionally with the
system are concerned, there is no such thing as a "most useful"
document. Every document is equally important - it wouldn't be on
there if it wasn't. In fact, highlighting certain documents to users
may even be unlawful - the data has to be presented neutrally.
This is, of course, the sort of thing that could be addressed by third
parties if the data was available via an API. A public-friendly
overview of planning applications that summarises it for the
non-technical, but links through to the local authority website for
those who want to take it further, would be beneficial. But, to be
reliable, the data has to be available via an API. So this is maybe
something to take up with your MP.
>8) The search should have search-as-you-type so that people can zoom in on
>the correct address quickly. This would avoid the kind of problem where a
>search for e.g. "102 Mill Road" comes back with results that include "102
>Millington Lane" - autocomplete would get rid of this problem as the user
>would see their intention in the drop-down list as they type.
>
>9) In general, the place search isn't very intelligent. A search with an
>explicit number like "1 York Street" shouldn't include "21 York Street"
>"113 York Street" and many others in it.
The problem is that most users aren't very intelligent, and addresses
are recorded as supplied - they aren't canonicalised to the PAF. So a
lot of times, what people want may well not be what they search for. I
agree that an "exact match" option as well as a default fuzzy match
should be offered, though.
>10) The map view is just awful and extremely 2005 style. If PlanIt can
>turn the data into a useable map on peanuts of money, IDOX certainly can.
>https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/spatialDisplay.do?action=display&searchType=Application
The map view uses OS maps because OS maps are canonical as far as
local government is concerned. It's not as smooth a user experience as
dedicated web maps, such as OSM and Google, but there's not a lot that
the software can do about that.
>11) Dates are totally unintelligible, even to people very familiar with
>the planning system like me. Can you tell me which is the date I need to
>respond to an application by? This one has three dates mentioning
>consultation, and they are all different.
>https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=dates&keyVal=K1W3D0DX04X00
Again, this is an issue with the planning system, not the software.
Every date is equally important; it's up to the user to find the one
which is relevent to them.
(To answer the question: If you have been directly contacted by the
planning department as you are a neighbour, then the "Neighbour
Consultation Expiry Date" applies. If you have not been directly
contacted, and merely wish to comment as a member of the public, then
the "Standard Consultation Expiry Date" applies).
>14) E-mails in the document list get saved as .eml which I think is an
>Outlook-specific format. I can't read them on my system, except by finding
>the text in a pile of binary characters surrounding it.
Thunderbird opens them as well.
This, again, is more of an issue with the planning system. There's a
general principle (I'm not sure if it's a legal requirement, but it
certainly seems to be near-universal practice) that submitted
docoments are loaded onto the database in the format in which they
were submitted. So you will find Word documents, PDF files, etc. And
emails tend to be loaded as .eml, because that preserves all the
formatting of the original HTML email. The alternative is to save the
email to PDF and then load that onto the system. But that adds an
extra step into the system.
>15) There is no linkage to the meeting where an application is being
>considered. It surely cannot be difficult for a database structure to list
>such an entry. Officer reports are added but not usually agendas/minutes
>of meetings, so finding out what was actually debated on an application
>generally requires some serious google-fu to link them up.
Agendas and minutes directly on the application database wouldn't be
possible, because that adds material which isn't relevent. But a link
to the relevant entry in the meetings database ought to be possible.
Part of the issue, of course, is that they are separate, standalone
systems, and putting a link on the application creates a risk that it
will subsequently rot if the meetings database system ever changes.
Mark
wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, DR de Lacey wrote:
>
>> Could we now turn to other issues in IDOX? I really would like to know
>> what you like and dislike about it -- and any improvements made before
>> SCambs adopts it would also be implemented in the City.
>
>See below for a non-exhaustive list of problems, which make it
>unnecessarily hard to scrutinise applications.
than the software.
>Some of these are things that a competent web developer could fix in a few
>days' work fairly easily. In general it feels like IDOX don't care about
>their product, or they are massively understaffed.
to the internal database. That's desirable, for a number of reasons -
it means that the content that the officers see and the public see is
identical, and you never have issues with documents being missing from
one side or the other. But it's also what tends to cause problems with
server capacity.
>2) Critically, the lack of a data feed. This should be an absolute
>requirement for modern local government, and should be part of the
>requirements that South Cambs have for a newly-commissioned system. It
>shouldn't require a project like
>http://www.planit.org.uk/planarea/Cambridge/
>to fill in the gaps by scraping pages to turn the data into an API that
>projects like Cyclescape can then use.
mandates it.
>5) The inability for ordinary members of the public to understand what is
>presented. Most of the time, for instance, a "Design and Access Statement"
>is what is most useful to read, but this is hidden amongst 100+ documents
>sometimes. A good, accessible modern approach to displaying planning
>applications would show make things easier to understand.
legality of it, and as far as those who work professionally with the
system are concerned, there is no such thing as a "most useful"
document. Every document is equally important - it wouldn't be on
there if it wasn't. In fact, highlighting certain documents to users
may even be unlawful - the data has to be presented neutrally.
This is, of course, the sort of thing that could be addressed by third
parties if the data was available via an API. A public-friendly
overview of planning applications that summarises it for the
non-technical, but links through to the local authority website for
those who want to take it further, would be beneficial. But, to be
reliable, the data has to be available via an API. So this is maybe
something to take up with your MP.
>8) The search should have search-as-you-type so that people can zoom in on
>the correct address quickly. This would avoid the kind of problem where a
>search for e.g. "102 Mill Road" comes back with results that include "102
>Millington Lane" - autocomplete would get rid of this problem as the user
>would see their intention in the drop-down list as they type.
>
>9) In general, the place search isn't very intelligent. A search with an
>explicit number like "1 York Street" shouldn't include "21 York Street"
>"113 York Street" and many others in it.
are recorded as supplied - they aren't canonicalised to the PAF. So a
lot of times, what people want may well not be what they search for. I
agree that an "exact match" option as well as a default fuzzy match
should be offered, though.
>10) The map view is just awful and extremely 2005 style. If PlanIt can
>turn the data into a useable map on peanuts of money, IDOX certainly can.
>https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/spatialDisplay.do?action=display&searchType=Application
local government is concerned. It's not as smooth a user experience as
dedicated web maps, such as OSM and Google, but there's not a lot that
the software can do about that.
>11) Dates are totally unintelligible, even to people very familiar with
>the planning system like me. Can you tell me which is the date I need to
>respond to an application by? This one has three dates mentioning
>consultation, and they are all different.
>https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=dates&keyVal=K1W3D0DX04X00
Every date is equally important; it's up to the user to find the one
which is relevent to them.
(To answer the question: If you have been directly contacted by the
planning department as you are a neighbour, then the "Neighbour
Consultation Expiry Date" applies. If you have not been directly
contacted, and merely wish to comment as a member of the public, then
the "Standard Consultation Expiry Date" applies).
>14) E-mails in the document list get saved as .eml which I think is an
>Outlook-specific format. I can't read them on my system, except by finding
>the text in a pile of binary characters surrounding it.
This, again, is more of an issue with the planning system. There's a
general principle (I'm not sure if it's a legal requirement, but it
certainly seems to be near-universal practice) that submitted
docoments are loaded onto the database in the format in which they
were submitted. So you will find Word documents, PDF files, etc. And
emails tend to be loaded as .eml, because that preserves all the
formatting of the original HTML email. The alternative is to save the
email to PDF and then load that onto the system. But that adds an
extra step into the system.
>15) There is no linkage to the meeting where an application is being
>considered. It surely cannot be difficult for a database structure to list
>such an entry. Officer reports are added but not usually agendas/minutes
>of meetings, so finding out what was actually debated on an application
>generally requires some serious google-fu to link them up.
possible, because that adds material which isn't relevent. But a link
to the relevant entry in the meetings database ought to be possible.
Part of the issue, of course, is that they are separate, standalone
systems, and putting a link on the application creates a risk that it
will subsequently rot if the meetings database system ever changes.
Mark
Roland Perry
Sep 3, 2018, 1:58:03 PM9/3/18
to
In message <alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
at 13:54:26 on Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Martin <mv...@remove.cam.ac.uk>
remarked:
[snip]
But apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?
--
Roland Perry
at 13:54:26 on Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Martin <mv...@remove.cam.ac.uk>
remarked:
[snip]
But apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Sep 3, 2018, 2:08:04 PM9/3/18
to
In message <tgcqod5pvt4peju44...@4ax.com>, at 14:44:56 on
Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>The problem is that most users aren't very intelligent
Oh dear oh dear. Victim blaming.
Meanwhile, shouldn't a database aimed at the ordinary member of the
public not be strewn with the plethora of banana skins you freely admit
it exhibits?
--
Roland Perry
Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>The problem is that most users aren't very intelligent
Meanwhile, shouldn't a database aimed at the ordinary member of the
public not be strewn with the plethora of banana skins you freely admit
it exhibits?
--
Roland Perry
davi...@yahoo.co.uk
Sep 3, 2018, 2:22:59 PM9/3/18
to
On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 3:08:04 PM UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tgcqod5pvt4peju44...@4ax.com>, at 14:44:56 on
> Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> remarked:
>
> >The problem is that most users aren't very intelligent
>
> Oh dear oh dear. Victim blaming.
First rule of technical and most writing: know the readership and
> In message <tgcqod5pvt4peju44...@4ax.com>, at 14:44:56 on
> Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> remarked:
>
> >The problem is that most users aren't very intelligent
>
> Oh dear oh dear. Victim blaming.
cater for them, whether that's in the text, illustration or the
organisation thereof. Simples - until the constraints kick in.
> Meanwhile, shouldn't a database aimed at the ordinary member of the
> public not be strewn with the plethora of banana skins you freely admit
> it exhibits?
... should a database aimed at ordinary members of the
public be strewn with the plethora of banana skins ...
Sorry. It's rare that you offer such an easy target, and I do agree
with your view.
--
David
Mark Goodge
Sep 3, 2018, 3:13:46 PM9/3/18
to
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 07:22:58 -0700 (PDT), davi...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 3:08:04 PM UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Meanwhile, shouldn't a database aimed at the ordinary member of the
>> public not be strewn with the plethora of banana skins you freely admit
>> it exhibits?
>
>Double negative, Roland? ;-). Perhaps this:
>
> ... should a database aimed at ordinary members of the
> public be strewn with the plethora of banana skins ...
The database isn't aimed at ordinary members of the public. The
>On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 3:08:04 PM UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Meanwhile, shouldn't a database aimed at the ordinary member of the
>> public not be strewn with the plethora of banana skins you freely admit
>> it exhibits?
>
>Double negative, Roland? ;-). Perhaps this:
>
> ... should a database aimed at ordinary members of the
> public be strewn with the plethora of banana skins ...
database is aimed at, used primarily by, and designed for, planning
professionals. The web-based front-end is merely a window into that
database. Since it is required to give the public access to exactly
the same material as the professionals, there are limits to how far it
can be simplified.
Something that possibly isn't obvious here is that when SCDC are
thinking about buying IDOX, they are not buying a website. They are
buying an entire planning management system, of which the public
website is only one component. The majority of the functionality is
internal and will be used by planning officers. So how well it meets
the officers' needs is, in the end, the more important consideration.
Mark
animosu...@gmail.com
Sep 3, 2018, 3:50:20 PM9/3/18
to
> Something that possibly isn't obvious here is that when SCDC are
> thinking about buying IDOX, they are not buying a website. They are
> buying an entire planning management system, of which the public
> website is only one component. The majority of the functionality is
> internal and will be used by planning officers. So how well it meets
> the officers' needs is, in the end, the more important consideration.
>
> Mark
Roland Perry
Sep 3, 2018, 7:14:12 PM9/3/18
to
In message <agjqod9emr4dqu2fh...@4ax.com>, at 16:13:40 on
--
Roland Perry
>Something that possibly isn't obvious here is that when SCDC are
>thinking about buying IDOX, they are not buying a website. They are
>buying an entire planning management system, of which the public
>website is only one component. The majority of the functionality is
>internal and will be used by planning officers. So how well it meets
>the officers' needs is, in the end, the more important consideration.
Yes, we get the message. Sod the public.
>thinking about buying IDOX, they are not buying a website. They are
>buying an entire planning management system, of which the public
>website is only one component. The majority of the functionality is
>internal and will be used by planning officers. So how well it meets
>the officers' needs is, in the end, the more important consideration.
--
Roland Perry
Martin
Sep 3, 2018, 9:36:32 PM9/3/18
to
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge wrote:
> >Some of these are things that a competent web developer could fix in a
> >few days' work fairly easily. In general it feels like IDOX don't care
> >about their product, or they are massively understaffed.
>
> One of the problems is that the public website is merely a front-end to
> the internal database.
be fixed. Almost certainly they are within the compentency of the web
developer to fix without needing any database structure changes.
> That's desirable, for a number of reasons - it means that the content
> that the officers see and the public see is identical, and you never
> have issues with documents being missing from one side or the other. But
> it's also what tends to cause problems with server capacity.
server capacity or indexing.
> >2) Critically, the lack of a data feed. This should be an absolute
> >requirement for modern local government, and should be part of the
> >requirements that South Cambs have for a newly-commissioned system. It
> >shouldn't require a project like
> >http://www.planit.org.uk/planarea/Cambridge/
> >to fill in the gaps by scraping pages to turn the data into an API that
> >projects like Cyclescape can then use.
>
> Realistically, you're not going to get that until the government
> mandates it.
In a "Smart City" in which there is major growth, and which likes to think
we are UK-leading, this kind of thing should be considered basic building
blocks.
> This is very much an issue with the planning system. As far as the
> legality of it, and as far as those who work professionally with the
> system are concerned, there is no such thing as a "most useful"
> document. Every document is equally important - it wouldn't be on there
> if it wasn't. In fact, highlighting certain documents to users may even
> be unlawful - the data has to be presented neutrally.
done for localgov to make planning more accessible to the public.
> The problem is that most users aren't very intelligent, and addresses
> are recorded as supplied - they aren't canonicalised to the PAF. So a
> lot of times, what people want may well not be what they search for. I
> agree that an "exact match" option as well as a default fuzzy match
> should be offered, though.
Name" should never match with "10 Street Name" are again things that can
be tackled at a web end - it smacks of a badly-tuned search engine. This
is nothing to do with the PAF.
> >10) The map view is just awful and extremely 2005 style. If PlanIt can
> >turn the data into a useable map on peanuts of money, IDOX certainly can.
> >https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/spatialDisplay.do?action=display&searchType=Application
>
> The map view uses OS maps because OS maps are canonical as far as
> local government is concerned. It's not as smooth a user experience as
> dedicated web maps, such as OSM and Google, but there's not a lot that
> the software can do about that.
higher-quality slippy map implementation than that which is currently
present.
http://www.pedalnorth.com/content/os-interactive-map
> >11) Dates are totally unintelligible, even to people very familiar with
> >the planning system like me. Can you tell me which is the date I need to
> >respond to an application by? This one has three dates mentioning
> >consultation, and they are all different.
> >https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=dates&keyVal=K1W3D0DX04X00
>
> Again, this is an issue with the planning system, not the software.
> Every date is equally important; it's up to the user to find the one
> which is relevent to them.
interface. It's basic usability to add explanatory text to specialised
labels in a UI.
> (To answer the question: If you have been directly contacted by the
> planning department as you are a neighbour, then the "Neighbour
> Consultation Expiry Date" applies. If you have not been directly
> contacted, and merely wish to comment as a member of the public, then
> the "Standard Consultation Expiry Date" applies).
> >14) E-mails in the document list get saved as .eml which I think is an
> >Outlook-specific format. I can't read them on my system, except by finding
> >the text in a pile of binary characters surrounding it.
>
> Thunderbird opens them as well.
>
> This, again, is more of an issue with the planning system. There's a
> general principle (I'm not sure if it's a legal requirement, but it
> certainly seems to be near-universal practice) that submitted
> docoments are loaded onto the database in the format in which they
> were submitted. So you will find Word documents, PDF files, etc. And
> emails tend to be loaded as .eml, because that preserves all the
> formatting of the original HTML email. The alternative is to save the
> email to PDF and then load that onto the system. But that adds an
> extra step into the system.
concern about preserving fidelity, then a warning can be injected into the
PDF stating that it's not the original. I don't accept we should simply
lie down and accept inaccessible access to proprietary formats.
> >15) There is no linkage to the meeting where an application is being
> >considered. It surely cannot be difficult for a database structure to list
> >such an entry. Officer reports are added but not usually agendas/minutes
> >of meetings, so finding out what was actually debated on an application
> >generally requires some serious google-fu to link them up.
>
> Agendas and minutes directly on the application database wouldn't be
> possible, because that adds material which isn't relevent. But a link
> to the relevant entry in the meetings database ought to be possible.
internal workflow anyway.
> Part of the issue, of course, is that they are separate, standalone
> systems, and putting a link on the application creates a risk that it
> will subsequently rot if the meetings database system ever changes.
change, as they should be doing anyway.
Martin
Martin
Sep 3, 2018, 9:40:07 PM9/3/18
to
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge wrote:
> The database isn't aimed at ordinary members of the public. The database
> is aimed at, used primarily by, and designed for, planning
> professionals.
user.
I've never bought the argument that just because a system is primarily
used by specialists, they should have to have lots of training in order to
cope with what are basically things that should be fixed upstream in a UI.
Professionals should be entited to a smooth and easy-to-use experience in
line with modern web standards. If they aren't, the wasted time is of
course a cost that we as taxpayers are paying for.
> The majority of the functionality is internal and will be used by
> planning officers. So how well it meets the officers' needs is, in the
> end, the more important consideration.
system. That kind of attitude (which I'm not attributing to you of
course!) is one reason why the planning system remains so incomprehensible
to even the most dogged member of the public, and why all kinds of
opportunities to improve the public realm are missed time and time again.
Martin
Paul Bird
Sep 3, 2018, 9:40:56 PM9/3/18
to
On 03/09/2018 22:36, Martin wrote:
> I totally disagree - it's entirely possible to present OS map data in a
> higher-quality slippy map implementation than that which is currently
> present.
>
> http://www.pedalnorth.com/content/os-interactive-map
That is a lovely implementation, seamless and fast and that's on slow
> I totally disagree - it's entirely possible to present OS map data in a
> higher-quality slippy map implementation than that which is currently
> present.
>
> http://www.pedalnorth.com/content/os-interactive-map
wifi. Best one I've seen.
PB
Mark Goodge
Sep 4, 2018, 8:19:48 AM9/4/18
to
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 22:40:06 +0100, Martin <mv...@remove.cam.ac.uk>
wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> The database isn't aimed at ordinary members of the public. The database
>> is aimed at, used primarily by, and designed for, planning
>> professionals.
>
>... who should expect as high standards of web usability as any other
>user.
They're not using the public web interface.
Mark
wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> The database isn't aimed at ordinary members of the public. The database
>> is aimed at, used primarily by, and designed for, planning
>> professionals.
>
>... who should expect as high standards of web usability as any other
>user.
Mark
Mark Goodge
Sep 4, 2018, 8:58:50 AM9/4/18
to
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 22:36:30 +0100, Martin <mv...@remove.cam.ac.uk>
wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> That's desirable, for a number of reasons - it means that the content
>> that the officers see and the public see is identical, and you never
>> have issues with documents being missing from one side or the other. But
>> it's also what tends to cause problems with server capacity.
>
>I don't understand why the visibility identicality has anything to do with
>server capacity or indexing.
Because it's not running on an external web server like the main
council website. It's running on an internally hosted database server,
probably MS SQL. So it's constrained both by the bandwidth of that
server to the outside world and the server's capacity.
This is, of course, something that could potentially be solved by
hosting it in the cloud. But local authorities haven't tended to be
all that enthusiastic adopters of cloud technology. Concerns over
security and uptime are still an issue. In particular, there's a worry
that if you host a mission critical system in the cloud, then you lose
access to it if your Internet connection is disrupted. Internally
hosted systems, on the other hand, are still accessible internally
even if external connectivity is lost.
As far as things like planning management systems are concerned, this
tends to be a self-perpetuating cycle. Customers are used to using
self-hosted solutions. So there's no demand for cloud-hosted
solutions. So vendors have no incentive to offer cloud hosted
solutions. So customers have no option to use cloud-hosted solutions.
So customers are used to using self-hosted solutions. Etc.
This may change, eventually. But it's unlikely to change quickly.
>> >2) Critically, the lack of a data feed. This should be an absolute
>> >requirement for modern local government, and should be part of the
>> >requirements that South Cambs have for a newly-commissioned system. It
>> >shouldn't require a project like
>> >http://www.planit.org.uk/planarea/Cambridge/
>> >to fill in the gaps by scraping pages to turn the data into an API that
>> >projects like Cyclescape can then use.
>>
>> Realistically, you're not going to get that until the government
>> mandates it.
>
>Or customers start asking for it.
The customers of the software (ie, the local authorities) aren't going
to ask for it, because it offers no benefits to them. The customers of
the local authority (ie, planning applicants) are not going to ask for
it, because it offers no benefit to them. Members of the public are
not customers of either the planning system or the software.
If a large enough number of the council's electorate were to ask for a
more public-friendly planning system, that could conceivably change.
But the reality is that they are not asking for it.
>
>> >10) The map view is just awful and extremely 2005 style. If PlanIt can
>> >turn the data into a useable map on peanuts of money, IDOX certainly can.
>> >https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/spatialDisplay.do?action=display&searchType=Application
>>
>> The map view uses OS maps because OS maps are canonical as far as
>> local government is concerned. It's not as smooth a user experience as
>> dedicated web maps, such as OSM and Google, but there's not a lot that
>> the software can do about that.
>
>I totally disagree - it's entirely possible to present OS map data in a
>higher-quality slippy map implementation than that which is currently
>present.
>
>http://www.pedalnorth.com/content/os-interactive-map
That's just the free tier of OS maps, though, which is designed for
public web use. The council's planning maps go all the way down to
MasterMap level, which isn't designed primarily for web use and
doesn't have the same suite of display tools associated with it.
>> Part of the issue, of course, is that they are separate, standalone
>> systems, and putting a link on the application creates a risk that it
>> will subsequently rot if the meetings database system ever changes.
>
>That is an argument for Local Authorities implementing redirects when URLs
>change, as they should be doing anyway.
The meetings and agendas site would need to maintain a database of
every previous URL associated with each document. That would need to
be manually maintained, which is a lot of work.
The meetings and agendas section of most council websites is also an
outsourced service (although in this case, the leading provider does
host it in the cloud). That has advantages for the council, but it
also means that the council doesn't have any direct control over
things like public URLs and redirects. And, again, the public website
is just a front-end onto a much larger internal system. So the fact
that the public system may have its shortcomings is not going to be a
particularly key consideration.
Mark
wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> That's desirable, for a number of reasons - it means that the content
>> that the officers see and the public see is identical, and you never
>> have issues with documents being missing from one side or the other. But
>> it's also what tends to cause problems with server capacity.
>
>I don't understand why the visibility identicality has anything to do with
>server capacity or indexing.
council website. It's running on an internally hosted database server,
probably MS SQL. So it's constrained both by the bandwidth of that
server to the outside world and the server's capacity.
This is, of course, something that could potentially be solved by
hosting it in the cloud. But local authorities haven't tended to be
all that enthusiastic adopters of cloud technology. Concerns over
security and uptime are still an issue. In particular, there's a worry
that if you host a mission critical system in the cloud, then you lose
access to it if your Internet connection is disrupted. Internally
hosted systems, on the other hand, are still accessible internally
even if external connectivity is lost.
As far as things like planning management systems are concerned, this
tends to be a self-perpetuating cycle. Customers are used to using
self-hosted solutions. So there's no demand for cloud-hosted
solutions. So vendors have no incentive to offer cloud hosted
solutions. So customers have no option to use cloud-hosted solutions.
So customers are used to using self-hosted solutions. Etc.
This may change, eventually. But it's unlikely to change quickly.
>> >2) Critically, the lack of a data feed. This should be an absolute
>> >requirement for modern local government, and should be part of the
>> >requirements that South Cambs have for a newly-commissioned system. It
>> >shouldn't require a project like
>> >http://www.planit.org.uk/planarea/Cambridge/
>> >to fill in the gaps by scraping pages to turn the data into an API that
>> >projects like Cyclescape can then use.
>>
>> Realistically, you're not going to get that until the government
>> mandates it.
>
>Or customers start asking for it.
to ask for it, because it offers no benefits to them. The customers of
the local authority (ie, planning applicants) are not going to ask for
it, because it offers no benefit to them. Members of the public are
not customers of either the planning system or the software.
If a large enough number of the council's electorate were to ask for a
more public-friendly planning system, that could conceivably change.
But the reality is that they are not asking for it.
>
>> >10) The map view is just awful and extremely 2005 style. If PlanIt can
>> >turn the data into a useable map on peanuts of money, IDOX certainly can.
>> >https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/online-applications/spatialDisplay.do?action=display&searchType=Application
>>
>> The map view uses OS maps because OS maps are canonical as far as
>> local government is concerned. It's not as smooth a user experience as
>> dedicated web maps, such as OSM and Google, but there's not a lot that
>> the software can do about that.
>
>I totally disagree - it's entirely possible to present OS map data in a
>higher-quality slippy map implementation than that which is currently
>present.
>
>http://www.pedalnorth.com/content/os-interactive-map
public web use. The council's planning maps go all the way down to
MasterMap level, which isn't designed primarily for web use and
doesn't have the same suite of display tools associated with it.
>> Part of the issue, of course, is that they are separate, standalone
>> systems, and putting a link on the application creates a risk that it
>> will subsequently rot if the meetings database system ever changes.
>
>That is an argument for Local Authorities implementing redirects when URLs
>change, as they should be doing anyway.
every previous URL associated with each document. That would need to
be manually maintained, which is a lot of work.
The meetings and agendas section of most council websites is also an
outsourced service (although in this case, the leading provider does
host it in the cloud). That has advantages for the council, but it
also means that the council doesn't have any direct control over
things like public URLs and redirects. And, again, the public website
is just a front-end onto a much larger internal system. So the fact
that the public system may have its shortcomings is not going to be a
particularly key consideration.
Mark
Ian Jackson
Sep 5, 2018, 9:51:19 PM9/5/18
to
In article <m3gsodppggpcf9ras...@4ax.com>,
The local authorities are public bodies with responsibility to serve
the public - and, in theory at leas, democratic accountability.
They're not supposed to be run for the convenience of the council's
clerks.
Indeed, that public interest is what Douglas de Lacey is serving by
asking these questions here. I'm sure he won't take such a blinkered
attitude.
>If a large enough number of the council's electorate were to ask for a
>more public-friendly planning system, that could conceivably change.
>But the reality is that they are not asking for it.
There are of course pressure groups, some with large memberships,
asking for this kind of thing. Martin is from the Cycling Campaign,
which boasts more members than all of Cambridge's political parties
put together. Nationally there is ORG, for example.
Frankly, the kind of narrow-minded attitude on the part of "the
establishment", that you are demonstrating, is part of what got us
Brexit. (Along with the racism and electoral fraud and lies in the
plutocrats' press and foreign manipulation and so on of course.)
>[some thing or other] is a lot of work.
This is a ridiculously "can't do" attitude. Every free software
project, every political party, and many random tiddlywinks clubs or
whatever, manage better and more sensible websites than IDOX.
--
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 22:36:30 +0100, Martin <mv...@remove.cam.ac.uk>
>wrote:
>>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>> Realistically, you're not going to get that until the government
>>> mandates it.
>>
>>Or customers start asking for it.
>
>The customers of the software (ie, the local authorities) aren't going
>to ask for it, because it offers no benefits to them.
Jesus H Christ!
>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 22:36:30 +0100, Martin <mv...@remove.cam.ac.uk>
>wrote:
>>On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>> Realistically, you're not going to get that until the government
>>> mandates it.
>>
>>Or customers start asking for it.
>
>The customers of the software (ie, the local authorities) aren't going
>to ask for it, because it offers no benefits to them.
The local authorities are public bodies with responsibility to serve
the public - and, in theory at leas, democratic accountability.
They're not supposed to be run for the convenience of the council's
clerks.
Indeed, that public interest is what Douglas de Lacey is serving by
asking these questions here. I'm sure he won't take such a blinkered
attitude.
>If a large enough number of the council's electorate were to ask for a
>more public-friendly planning system, that could conceivably change.
>But the reality is that they are not asking for it.
asking for this kind of thing. Martin is from the Cycling Campaign,
which boasts more members than all of Cambridge's political parties
put together. Nationally there is ORG, for example.
Frankly, the kind of narrow-minded attitude on the part of "the
establishment", that you are demonstrating, is part of what got us
Brexit. (Along with the racism and electoral fraud and lies in the
plutocrats' press and foreign manipulation and so on of course.)
>[some thing or other] is a lot of work.
This is a ridiculously "can't do" attitude. Every free software
project, every political party, and many random tiddlywinks clubs or
whatever, manage better and more sensible websites than IDOX.
--
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
Tim Ward
Sep 5, 2018, 10:19:12 PM9/5/18
to
On 05/09/2018 22:51, Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>> If a large enough number of the council's electorate were to ask for a
>> more public-friendly planning system, that could conceivably change.
>> But the reality is that they are not asking for it.
>
> There are of course pressure groups, some with large memberships,
> asking for this kind of thing. Martin is from the Cycling Campaign,
> which boasts more members than all of Cambridge's political parties
> put together. Nationally there is ORG, for example.
... and the supplier will say "yes sir, no problem, that'll be £xx,xxx
>
>> If a large enough number of the council's electorate were to ask for a
>> more public-friendly planning system, that could conceivably change.
>> But the reality is that they are not asking for it.
>
> There are of course pressure groups, some with large memberships,
> asking for this kind of thing. Martin is from the Cycling Campaign,
> which boasts more members than all of Cambridge's political parties
> put together. Nationally there is ORG, for example.
please", which will play really well with local authorities who have
already had to cut well into stuff that they consider essential.
--
Tim Ward - 07801 703 600
www.brettward.co.uk
Martin
Sep 6, 2018, 12:50:29 PM9/6/18
to
On Wed, 5 Sep 2018, Tim Ward wrote:
> ... and the supplier will say "yes sir, no problem, that'll be £xx,xxx
> please", which will play really well with local authorities who have
> already had to cut well into stuff that they consider essential.
whether to pay. Also IDOX may be made to look bad for the ridiculousness
of charging £xx,xxx for things that should working correctly anyway.
If enough Local Authorities start asking for these kinds of fixes, then
eventually IDOX might fix it in the core product anyway. Don't ask, don't
get.
Martin
Mark Goodge
Sep 6, 2018, 2:03:25 PM9/6/18
to
On 05 Sep 2018 22:51:16 +0100 (BST), ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
own local councillors. I obviously have no window into what's
happening in Cambridge, but I can assure that that isn't happening
here.
>>[some thing or other] is a lot of work.
>
>This is a ridiculously "can't do" attitude. Every free software
>project, every political party, and many random tiddlywinks clubs or
>whatever, manage better and more sensible websites than IDOX.
That's Dunning-Kruger syndrome talking. You have absolutely no idea
what IDOX does other than that small part of the iceberg which is the
public website.
If you think you could write better software than IDOX, and you think
it could be open sourced, then by all means put together a group of
people and start work on it. But you'll need to start by researching
the actual specification rather than judging it by what you can see
from the outside.
Mark
(Ian Jackson) wrote:
>In article <m3gsodppggpcf9ras...@4ax.com>,
>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>If a large enough number of the council's electorate were to ask for a
>>more public-friendly planning system, that could conceivably change.
>>But the reality is that they are not asking for it.
>
>There are of course pressure groups, some with large memberships,
>asking for this kind of thing. Martin is from the Cycling Campaign,
>which boasts more members than all of Cambridge's political parties
>put together. Nationally there is ORG, for example.
Then the pressure groups need to engage their members to contact their
>In article <m3gsodppggpcf9ras...@4ax.com>,
>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>If a large enough number of the council's electorate were to ask for a
>>more public-friendly planning system, that could conceivably change.
>>But the reality is that they are not asking for it.
>
>There are of course pressure groups, some with large memberships,
>asking for this kind of thing. Martin is from the Cycling Campaign,
>which boasts more members than all of Cambridge's political parties
>put together. Nationally there is ORG, for example.
own local councillors. I obviously have no window into what's
happening in Cambridge, but I can assure that that isn't happening
here.
>>[some thing or other] is a lot of work.
>
>This is a ridiculously "can't do" attitude. Every free software
>project, every political party, and many random tiddlywinks clubs or
>whatever, manage better and more sensible websites than IDOX.
what IDOX does other than that small part of the iceberg which is the
public website.
If you think you could write better software than IDOX, and you think
it could be open sourced, then by all means put together a group of
people and start work on it. But you'll need to start by researching
the actual specification rather than judging it by what you can see
from the outside.
Mark
Espen Koht
Sep 6, 2018, 10:46:25 PM9/6/18
to
On 06/09/2018 15:03, Mark Goodge wrote:
> But you'll need to start by researching
> the actual specification rather than judging it by what you can see
> from the outside.
Considering it's a part of a 'public consultation' exercise any
> But you'll need to start by researching
> the actual specification rather than judging it by what you can see
> from the outside.
reasonably person would consider fair game to judge it by what you see
'from the outside' (trans: by the public).
Roland Perry
Sep 7, 2018, 6:54:46 AM9/7/18
to
In message <m3gsodppggpcf9ras...@4ax.com>, at 09:58:43 on
Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
which exists precisely to allow those members of the public to
scrutinise planning applications.
And not just members of the public who want to exercise their rights to
view and comment on "current applications" (either for selfish reasons
or 'the greater good'), but those who are considering buying a property
and want to see if there are any relevant planning issues themselves,
rather than pay and wait six weeks for a LA search on every property on
their shortlist.
--
Roland Perry
Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>>> >2) Critically, the lack of a data feed. This should be an absolute
>>> >requirement for modern local government, and should be part of the
>>> >requirements that South Cambs have for a newly-commissioned system. It
>>> >shouldn't require a project like
>>> >http://www.planit.org.uk/planarea/Cambridge/
>>> >to fill in the gaps by scraping pages to turn the data into an API that
>>> >projects like Cyclescape can then use.
>>>
>>> Realistically, you're not going to get that until the government
>>> mandates it.
>>
>>Or customers start asking for it.
>
>The customers of the software (ie, the local authorities) aren't going
>to ask for it, because it offers no benefits to them. The customers of
>the local authority (ie, planning applicants) are not going to ask for
>it, because it offers no benefit to them. Members of the public are
>not customers of either the planning system or the software.
Members of the public are absolutely customers of the planning system,
>>> >requirement for modern local government, and should be part of the
>>> >requirements that South Cambs have for a newly-commissioned system. It
>>> >shouldn't require a project like
>>> >http://www.planit.org.uk/planarea/Cambridge/
>>> >to fill in the gaps by scraping pages to turn the data into an API that
>>> >projects like Cyclescape can then use.
>>>
>>> Realistically, you're not going to get that until the government
>>> mandates it.
>>
>>Or customers start asking for it.
>
>The customers of the software (ie, the local authorities) aren't going
>to ask for it, because it offers no benefits to them. The customers of
>the local authority (ie, planning applicants) are not going to ask for
>it, because it offers no benefit to them. Members of the public are
>not customers of either the planning system or the software.
which exists precisely to allow those members of the public to
scrutinise planning applications.
And not just members of the public who want to exercise their rights to
view and comment on "current applications" (either for selfish reasons
or 'the greater good'), but those who are considering buying a property
and want to see if there are any relevant planning issues themselves,
rather than pay and wait six weeks for a LA search on every property on
their shortlist.
--
Roland Perry
Espen Koht
Sep 8, 2018, 5:09:07 PM9/8/18
to
On 04/09/2018 9:58, Mark Goodge wrote:
> The meetings and agendas site would need to maintain a database of
> every previous URL associated with each document. That would need to
> be manually maintained, which is a lot of work.
>
> The meetings and agendas section of most council websites is also an
> outsourced service (although in this case, the leading provider does
> host it in the cloud). That has advantages for the council, but it
> also means that the council doesn't have any direct control over
> things like public URLs and redirects.
A good excuse as any to mandate DOIs for these kinds of documents perhaps?
> The meetings and agendas site would need to maintain a database of
> every previous URL associated with each document. That would need to
> be manually maintained, which is a lot of work.
>
> The meetings and agendas section of most council websites is also an
> outsourced service (although in this case, the leading provider does
> host it in the cloud). That has advantages for the council, but it
> also means that the council doesn't have any direct control over
> things like public URLs and redirects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier
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