Arabic Visarga
Radhakrishna Warrier
We had a discussion on Sanskrit visarga some time ago. In that thread, I had remarked that visarga might be the remnant of some consonant that disappeared because of lenition through the ages. Let me introduce here an Arabic “visarga”.
“Madīnaḥ” in Arabic means city. Any city, not just the famous Madīnaḥ where prophet Muhammad is buried. It is written as “مدينة”. The last letter (the leftmost) is “ـة” which is actually two dots of character “ta” (ت) placed over the ending or final form of character “ha” (ه) which looks like this: ـه. This character is called “tāa marbūtaḥ” (let us call it “Arabic visarga”) and is pronounced at the end of the word like a murmured ‘h’. Sounds like how a Sanskrit visarga might have been pronounced in the distant past.
The ‘ta’ that disappeared due to the process of lenition resurfaces when another word starting with a vowel is added to the word ending in the “Arabic visarga”. The city where prophet Muhammad is buried is called Madinatul Munawwara (مدينة المنورة) which is written as Madīnaḥ al munawwara meaning the city of light or the radiant city. Here, the ‘t’ sound resurfaced because the words “al munawwara” came immediately after Madīnaḥ.
Other words ending in the “Arabic visarga” behave similarly as described in the case of Madīnaḥ.
Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
Madhav Deshpande
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K S Kannan
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Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.
Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.
Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.
Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit
University, Bangalore.
Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The
National Colleges, Bangalore.
Radhakrishna Warrier
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 6:10 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Arabic Visarga
Madhav Deshpande
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G S S Murthy
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and also my Sanskrit blog :
Nagaraj Paturi
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Achyut Karve
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Venkatakrishna Sastry
Namaste
1. On this interesting thread seeking clairty on ' ह ' and 'visarga also known as visarjaneeya) - (stand alone or at the end of a 'pada' or ' svara-vyanjana) - ह ’ (ह्)ः - अः - इः '
and remotely connecting it to two ' ह ' and two ' अ ' s -
The question that haunts my mind is What will be Samskruth with visarga substituted by 'ha or losong visarga ? Why are we misisng the right pointer given by Prof.Madhav Deshpande invoking Shikshaa and Pratishaakhya? What may be done to bring out the right use of Samskrutham along side regional languages ?
2. The following expression is most common usage where one can clearly see - ह and visarga.
हरिः ओम् Would it be proper to write /pronounce this as हरिह्- ओम् :
Another expression I would draw to limelight here is the expressions ' नमः-शिवाय ' where the modifications of ' visarga' are seen ! ( in script as well as regional pronunciation.)
3. Coming to Panini, if Panini was not clear on the visarga and ' ह ' , why would there be rules mentioning the transformations of visarga and ' ह ' - independently ? Is there any rule in Panini which suggests visarga to get transformed to ' ह ' ?
4. In Yoga-akshara perspective of analysis, ' ह ' is a 'yogavaaha' - Vyanjana ; visarga is not.
In Yoga-akshara perspective Visarga is ardhaakshara ( which may be constrcuted as half svara or half vyanjana !)
Pronunication and effort evidence this. Bad pronunciation practice and scripting practice (even when widely used) does not make substitution of visarga by 'ha' to be valid formation; at least in Samskruth.
5. An interesting point to observe on how Gunitakshara / barakhadi <' vyanjana+svara'> was taught in scools for the past three hundred plusyears in India and how modern digital standards present the same !
Classical barakhadi usually ends with (say for example ) as कं - कः, मं-मः- हं -ह: using अं-अः This is still common for many indian languages.
In Unicode, Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script the anusavara- visarga combine is not listed.
In Uniocde Wiki- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari the visarga, ha are explained with subtle but clear difference.
About difference of visarga uccharana in Brahmi language families (Samskruth - Prakruth ) and Arabic is like comparing apples and oranges. If Samskruth pronunciation is double layer masked by overlay of ' Prakruth pronunciation and poor scripting', should the blame be passed on to Grammarians ?
Regards
BVK Sastry
Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan
Namaste
1. On this interesting thread seeking clairty on ' ह ' and 'visarga also known as visarjaneeya) - (stand alone or at the end of a 'pada' or ' svara-vyanjana) - ह ’ (ह्)ः - अः - इः '
and remotely connecting it to two ' ह ' and two ' अ ' s -
The question that haunts my mind is What will be Samskruth with visarga substituted by 'ha or losong visarga ? Why are we misisng the right pointer given by Prof.Madhav Deshpande invoking Shikshaa and Pratishaakhya? What may be done to bring out the right use of Samskrutham along side regional languages ?
2. The following expression is most common usage where one can clearly see - ह and visarga.
हरिः ओम् Would it be proper to write /pronounce this as हरिह्- ओम् :
Another expression I would draw to limelight here is the expressions ' नमः-शिवाय ' where the modifications of ' visarga' are seen ! ( in script as well as regional pronunciation.)
Ramakrishnan
>>Could the origin of devehi in the Prakrts be devebhiH in the Vedic,
- rather than just devaiH ((mis-)pronounced/approximated to devaihi)?
This prAkrtisation is already there in the Vedic:
gRhNAmi < grbhNAmi etc.
All the mahAprANa-s seem to be liable to be replaced by the h-sound.
1. The vedic forms of Gṛh/gṛbh have no apparent connection with the visarga getting lost in prākṛt, as the h/bh in gṛh/gṛbh is not a visarga, moreover this is a very rare occurrence in my understanding so cannot be extrapolated as a potential phonetic sound shift across the board to all similar words - or putatively attributed to ostensible prākṛtic developments already being present in the prakṛti.
2. The phonemic innovation in devaiḥ / *devebhiḥ > devehi (say in pāli) is to the final visarga not to the intervocalic *-bh- sound. So there is no need to reconstruct a parent form that could have contained a -bh- in it to explain this change.
4. As to why hi remains instead of the visarga, rather than disappearing altogether, again I disagree with Prof. Deshpande that it was 'lost' in Pali. It did exist in the pronunciation, but to the person unschooled in phonetics, the pronunciation of ḥ and hi would not have been all that different and hence did not necessitate the invention of a new akṣara in their script (that had no letter for it in the first place). The fact that it was still pronounced in speech is abundantly clear from the surviving -hi in devehi, so it was not lost, and neither was this a genuine sound-shift from ḥ to hi, if that were the case duḥkha would not have become dukkha but probably something like *duhakha or *duhukha in pali. If ḥ simply disappeared in speech, it would not have left a geminate -k- in its place either (as in dukkha). So both in devehi and dukkha, the visarga remains in the spoken dialect, but in written Pali the script simply tries to approximate it with the closest sounding equivalent.
6. To assume that all prakrit was really phonetically spoken exactly as they are represented in writing (just because that is the case for sanskrit) is also to me a completely misconceived notion, that simply has no conclusive evidence to back it up.
8. I can also show that ṛ was similarly existing in the spoken languages of the redactors of the pali canon, and in Ashoka's own language, but that again is another long story in phonetics, so I will describe my understanding of it later.
Ramakrishnan
2. Secondly if we just focus on one documented register (say Pāli) rather than use catch-all terms like "prākṛt", it would be easier to understand what exactly is being meant. Prakrit is not one single clearly defined register but an umbrella term to denote a mass of inchoate lexical, grammatical and phonetic developments (not all of which are regional, not all of which are vernacular/dialectal and not all of which are grammatical, and not all of which are phonetic/phonemic), so to say that prakrit lost the visarga (and to then look for that already in vedic) seems a very confusing approach.
3. Thirdly, I take exception to the belief that prākṛtam was a spoken dialect (or set of dialects) in the last five centuries BCE, or worse, even before that. That is not yet conclusively proved, I am yet to see even a single recorded reference from any literature from the BCE period to there being any non-sanskrit spoken language or dialect that was recognized to be "the mother tongue(s) of the sanskrit speakers".
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Madhav Deshpande
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Achyut Karve
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Roland Steiner
> devehi
The type Skt. putraiḥ > Pāli putte is preserved only in remnants. In Middle Indian (Aśoka, Pāli, Prakrit), the usual ending of the Instr. Pl. for the masculine a-stems is -ehi. This ending -ehi may be a continuation of Vedic -ebhiḥ or may have been introduced analogously from other declensions. Prakrit also has the suffix -ehiṃ. Aggavaṃsa's Pāli grammar Saddanīti (completed in 1154 in Birma) teaches the interchangeability of -ehi and -ebhi, but after a long vowel -h- (instead of -bh-) is to be expected
See: Oskar von Hinüber: Das ältere Mitteldindisch im Überblick. 2nd enlarged edition. Wien: Verlag der Österreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften 2001 (Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften. Philosophisch-historische Klasse. Sitzungsberichte, 467. Band. Veröffentlichungen der Kommission für Sprachen und Kulturen Südasiens. Heft 20), § 316.
Kind regards,
Roland Steiner
Ramakrishnan
>>My reply simply is that all Prakrits and Pali have "dukkha," and even modern Marathi has "dukkha," which no Marathi speaker has any difficulty in pronouncing <<
2. Pali and Marathi are not both directly derived from Old-Indo-Aryan so what is true of Marathi is not ipso facto true for the spoken language underlying canonical Pali (and vice versa), so I am unable to accept this analogy. Marathi speakers do not imagine they are speaking dukkha with a visarga, but Pali speakers would have (that is because we here are speculating how the historical spoken language underlying epigraphic Pali, written in Old-Brahmi & Kharoshthi, would have sounded keeping in mind the known limitations of those early scripts and the orthographic conventions that were in use, rather than blindly believe that the spoken language was phonetically represented accurately in writing.
3. All indications are that the spoken language for which the early scripts (brahmi & kharosthi) were invented did not follow a fully scientific (or standardized) mapping of sounds to script, so the early scripts did not allow for phonetically accurate representation of the spoken language. In fact the kharosthi script in its early centuries did not even show vowel length distinctions but this is no evidence to show that the underlying spoken Indo-Aryan language in the 4th century BCE had shed its all its long vowels. It is only an evidence that the script did not allow such vowel length distinctions to be orthographically represented (until that script evolved enough over the centuries to allow fully phonetic representation of the spoken language -- and voila, you have phonetically accurate sanskrit appearing after centuries of apparent written "prakrit" -- when really all that had happened is only that the script had evolved, not so much the spoken language).
4. While you reject the sound shift of pali dukkha from its immediately prior OIA form * duḥkha, where the presence of the of the immediately prior visarga is indicated by the gemination (for lack of a better term) thus resulting in -k(*h)kh- ; I am inclined to believe that the visarga's position in the spoken word was sought to be preserved in writing by the use of an approximating consonant that existed in the script. I am not inclined to believe that the visarga simply disappeared in speech when its position was approximated in writing by the use of a replacement consonant. The need for the gemination in Pali (not in Marathi) arises because the underlying speech in the spoken language underlying Pali orthography still had that visarga.
In canonical pāli too, the same exceptional nature of the -ebhiḥ ending was preserved faithfully in forms such as '...suññā parappavādā samaṇebhi aññehi' (in Dīgha Nikāya - Mahāparinibbānasuttaṃ), 'sukho bhavetha, aññatra bhavantebhi' (Dīgha Nikāya - mahāgovindasuttaṃ), 'karitvā nipuṇebhi vidūhi sabbhi' ( Dīgha Nikāya - Lakkhaṇasuttaṃ), 'yaṃnūnāhaṃ dantebhi dantamādhāya' (Majjhima Nikāya - mahāsaccakasuttaṃ), 'aṭṭhi tacena onaddhaṃ, saha vatthebhi sobhati' ( Majjhima Nikāya - raṭṭhapālasuttaṃ) however the -ebhi (< ebhiḥ) ending is very rare. The usual ending in Pali is -ehi (< aiḥ). Therefore ī am unable to accept this as an argument that all OIA -bhi- became -hi- in Pāli. In fact the bh > h is not consistent so there is no such sound shift that can be considered characteristic, across the board, of Middle-Indic (or even of Pali alone).
Ramakrishnan
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Madhav Deshpande
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Roland Steiner
> All prakrits do not have "dukkha" because all prakrits do not in these
> circumstances undergo gemination of the complex cluster unlike Pali. The
> Ashokan epigraphic language does not do it
Geminates are never written in the early inscriptions. So this is a mere orthographic phenomenon.
> The -ebhiḥ ending (for -aiḥ in standard sanskrit) was exceptional, it was not the norm in Old-Indo-Aryan.
Still in the Ṛgveda the two endings -ebhiḥ (543 times of 211 stems ) and -aiḥ (666 times of 221 stems) are almost equally frequent, but already in the Atharveda the ending -ebhiḥ decreases significantly.
There is plenty that could be said about all the rest of what has been claimed here, but I simply do not have the time. It is not necessary to reinvent the wheel, just study the relevant literature.
Best,
Roland Steiner
Ramakrishnan
>>Geminates are never written in the early inscriptions. So this is a mere orthographic phenomenon.<<
>>There is plenty that could be said about all the rest of what has been claimed here, but I simply do not have the time. It is not necessary to reinvent the wheel, just study the relevant literature.<<
Ramakrishnan
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विश्वासो वासुकेयः
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 6:15:22 PM UTC+5:30, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
> is it considered an aberration and therefore incorrect?It is not correct to consider that an aberration or incorrect.On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 12:02 PM G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> wrote:Apropos Prof.Warrier's note, "Pronunciation of visarga in Dravidian family languages is also like that in modern Indo Aryan. Visarga ending "aḥ" is pronounced like "aha", ending "iḥ" is pronounced "ihi", ending "uḥ" is pronounced "uhu" and so on.", is it considered an aberration and therefore incorrect?
I append some points laid out be shrI rAkesh dAs some years ago:
## प्रातिशाख्येषु संज्ञा
- (स्रोतांसि - राकेशवचनानि)
- तैत्तिरीयप्रातिशाख्यस्य वैदिकाभरणभाष्ये उच्यते यत् "वायोर्विसर्जनेन जन्यत्वाद् अयं विसर्जनीयो भवति"। (तै०प्रा०वै०भा० १। १८)
- ऋक्प्रातिशाख्ये तथा तैत्तिरीयप्रातिशाख्ये यद्यपि विसर्जनीयसंज्ञा न विहिता किन्तु विसर्जनीयशब्दस्य बहुधा प्रयोग उपलभ्यते।
- वाजसनेयिप्रातिशाख्ये तथा ऋक्तन्त्रे विसर्जनीयसंज्ञा विहिता। (अः इति विसर्जनीयः। वा०प्रा० ८। २२, ऋ०तं० १। २) अथर्वप्रातिशाख्ये विसर्जनीयसंज्ञा न विधीयते। किन्तु विसर्जनीयशब्दस्य प्रयोगः बहुधा समुपलभ्यते। किन्तु, विसर्जनीयस्य कृते अभिनिष्ठानशब्दस्य प्रयोगोऽपि अत्र विहितः। तथाहि– विसर्जनीयोऽभिनिष्ठानः। (च०अ० १। ४२)
## स्थानम्
- (स्रोतांसि - राकेशवचनानि)
- ऋक्प्रातिशाख्ये तैत्तिरीयप्रातिशाख्ये (कण्ठस्थानौ हकारविसर्जनीयौ॥२.४६॥) वाजसनेयिप्रातिशाख्ये च विसर्जनीयः कण्ठ्य इत्युक्तः। किन्तु ऋक्प्रातिशाख्ये कथ्यते यत्, केचिदाचार्या इमम् उरस्यं मन्वते इति - केचिदेता उरस्यौ। (ऋ०प्रा० १। ४०)
- तत्रैव तैत्तिरीयप्रातिशाख्यानुसारं विसर्जनीयस्य स्थानान्तरम् अप्युक्तम् - यस्मात् स्वरात् परं विसर्जनीयस्तिष्ठति तस्येव उच्चारणस्थानं भवति विसर्जनीयस्य (पूर्वान्तसस्थानो विसर्जनीयः॥२.४८॥)।
- किन्तु ऋक्प्रातिशाख्ये निरस्त इति कश्चिद्दोष उक्तः। पूर्ववर्तिदीर्घवर्णस्य स्थानाद् विसर्जनीयस्य उच्चारणे अयं दोष उक्तः। तथाहि– स्वरात्परं पूर्वसस्थानमाहुर्दीर्घान्निरस्तं तु विसर्जनीयम्। (ऋ०प्रा० १४। ३०)
- अनयोर्मतयोः समन्वयः कथमिति उवटेन सम्यक् प्रदर्शितम्। उवटः अस्य सूत्रस्य व्याख्याने पक्षद्वयं कल्पयति। तथाहि–
- १. दीर्घात्परस्य विसर्जनीयस्यैव पूर्वसस्थानत्वं भवति।
- २. अन्यस्थाने दीर्घात् स्वरात्परो विसर्जनीयो देवैरपि उच्चारयितुं न शक्यते इत्यतः। दीर्घात्स्वरात् परं पूर्वसस्थानत्वम् आचार्या आहुः।
- तत उवटः कथयति यद्, अनयोः उभावपि पक्षौ युक्तौ। शास्त्रान्तरे विसर्जनीयस्य कण्ठस्थानं, पूर्वसस्थानत्वं च विहितम्। अत्र तु दोषसमुच्चयप्रकरणे वचनाद् अयं दोष इत्येव निर्णेयम्। शास्त्रान्तरदृशा अस्य दोषत्वं नेति। (तत्रैव उ०भा०)।
"
- विसर्गो नाम प्राक्तन-स्वरस्योच्चारणे यो वायुस् तस्यान्तिमभागस्य विसर्जनम्, तेन प्राक्तनस्वरस्य कर्तनम् इव। एवं विसृष्टो वायुभागः प्राक्तनस्वरस्य छायामिवेषदिवानुवहति।"
- तेनासौ शब्दः शुद्धहकाराद् भिन्नो भवति। नाम "हरिः", "हरः" इत्यत्र वाऽन्तिमः शब्दः "हरिह्" इति वा "हरह्" इति वोच्चारिते श्रूयमाणात् प्राक्तनस्वरच्छायारहित-शुद्धहकाराद् भिन्नो भवति।
- यः स्वरसहित-हकारसदृशः शब्दश् श्रूयेत क्वचित्, स पूर्ण-स्वर-युक्त-हकाराद् भिन्नो भवति - तस्याव्यक्ततरत्वात् निम्नध्वनित्वाद् अल्पतरमात्रात्वाच्च। नाम "हरिहि" इत्युच्चारिते यो ऽन्यवर्णसदृशं व्यक्तः हिकारश् श्रूयते ऽन्ते, तदपेक्षया "हरिः" इत्युक्तय् इकाराद् उत्तरो ऽन्तिमवर्णो ऽबुद्धुपूर्वको ऽव्यक्ततरो निम्नध्वनिश्च भवति। यावानत्रोच्चारणे व्यक्तता ऽन्तिमवर्णस्य, तावान् ह्यत्र दोषः।
- किञ्चाऽन्तिमशब्दस्य +अव्यक्ततायाम् अभावे वा प्रयत्नातिशये कृतेऽपि दोषः।
Thanks and regards,Murthy
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----My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :
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Subrahmanyam Korada
Professor of Sanskri,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R)
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Venkatakrishna Sastry
Namaste
Request more help to understand the ' poorvacharya samjnaa' part.
What might have been the necessity of poorvacharyas to formulate a complex technical term (Samjnaa) for Visarjaneeya using two upasargas and addition of a pratyaya and then define a 'svara' modification in only one form?
Why two other forms from the same base represent ' varna' ? Why four special forms from the same base ?
Why postulate a common base of 'two upasarga compound' - to explain ' Varna and Visarjaneeya' in the same breath after 'sapaada saptaadhyaayi' ??
If the samjnaa for Visarjaneeya was already there, why Panini needs special specific mention of visarjaneeya in the following sutras : खरवसानयोर्विसर्जनीयः । (8-3-15) ; विसर्जनीयस्य सः । (8-3-34)
शर्परे विसर्जनीयः ।(8-3-35) ; नुम्विसर्जनीयशर्व्यवायेऽपि ।(8-3-58) before the sutra अभिनिसः स्तनः शब्दसंज्ञायाम् ( 8-3-86) ?
Reason for seeking explanation:
a) < अभिनिस >. is the common base for all the four formations as < अभिनिष्ष्टानो वर्णः, अभिनिस्तानो वर्णः। अभिनिष्ष्टानो विसर्जनीयः, अभिनिस्तानो विसर्जनीयः >
b) Nyasa explains < अभिनिस > as < अभिनिसिति योऽयमुपसर्गसमवायस्तस्मादित्यर्थः >. :: That is ' अभिनिस' is a upasarga samasa- a compound of two upasargas.
Is there a necessity to explain a 'Samjnaa' as a 'samaasa' ?
I place below the full text of explanation of sutra 8-3-86 in Kashikaa and Nyaasa for ease of reference.
( Source: http://sanskritdocuments.org/learning_tools/ashtadhyayi/vyakhya/8/8.3.86.htm )
सूत्रम् अभिनिसः स्तनः शब्दसंज्ञायाम्॥ ८।३।८६
काशिका-वृत्तिः
अभिनिसः स्तनः शब्दसंज्ञायाम् ८।३।८६
अभिनिसित्येतस्मातुत्तरस्य स्तनतिसकारस्य मूर्धन्यादेशो भवति अन्यतरस्यां शब्दसंज्ञायां गम्यमानायाम्। अभिनिष्ष्टानो वर्णः, अभिनिस्तानो वर्णः। अभिनिष्ष्टानो विसर्जनीयः, अभिनिस्तानो विसर्जनीयः। शब्दसंज्ञायाम् इति किम्? अभिनिस्तनति मृदङ्गः। समासे इति अतःप्रभृति निवृत्तम्।
न्यासः
अभिनिसः स्तनः शबदसंज्ञायाम्?। , ८।३।८६
अनादेशसकारत्वादप्राप्त एव षत्वे वचनम्()। "ष्टन शब्दे" (धा।पा।४६१) इति भौवादिकस्य ग्रहणम्()। "स्तन गदी देवशब्दे" ["गदी परिवेदने" (धा।पा।१८६०)] (धा।पा।१८५९) इत्यतस्य चौरादिकस्य तु न। तस्य ग्रहणे सत्यदन्तत्वात्? "अत उपधायाः" ७।२।११६ इति न वृद्धिर्लभ्यते। अभि, निस्()--इत्येताभ्यामेवेदं षत्वं विधीयते। न हि व्यस्तभ्यामुत्तरस्य तस्य स्तुनतेर्मूर्धन्षे कृते शब्दसंज्ञा गम्यते। "अभिनिस इत्येतस्मात्()" इत्यादि। अभिनिसिति योऽयमुपसर्गसमवायस्तस्मादित्यर्थः। "अभिनिष्टानः" इति। अभिनिस्तव्यतेऽनेन, "अकर्तरि च कारके संज्ञायाम्()" ३।३।१९ इति घञ्()। प्रादिसमासः। ननु च समानाधिकारादेवाभिनिःस्तनतीत्यत्र न भविष्यति। किमेतन्निवृत्त्यर्थेन शब्दसंज्ञाग्रहणेन? इत्यत आह--"समास इत्यतः प्रभुति निवृत्तम्()" इति॥
Regards
BVK Sastry
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Subrahmanyam Korada
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Irene Galstian
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Subrahmanyam Korada
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Irene Galstian
On 17 May 2020, at 18:23, Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com> wrote:
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