Hypothesis related to Samadhi

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Respected vidwāns Ravindranath ji and Sunil ji,

 

Thanks for excellent comments and suggestions.

 

My working hypothesis is as follows:

 

Nirvikalpa Samādhi (presumably the highest level of Samādhi) is also mind-brain based because it has a neural basis; the Self does not leave the mind-brain system because self-related cortical and subcortical midline structures are still activated, and Samādhi-state knowledge has significant subjective biases because it depends on metaphysical beliefs. Thus, this knowledge is controversial and we cannot take it for granted; for example, compare atheist systems Buddhism/Jainism vs. theist Vedānta vs. other religions.

 

I invite everybody to reject this hypothesis with appropriate justifications and scientific (based on logic + reproducible evidence) and/or pseudoscientific (based on logic) evidence.

 

Cheers!

Kindest regards,

Ram

7/24/16

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Neuroscience & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

Ravindranath B S <ravi...@gmail.com>: Jul 25 12:27AM +0530 

Sri Ramji

If they were explained properly I don’t think we would have had any problem, instead everyone would have been great full and follow it, sir today’s biggest challenge is survival and that is to live without sickness and death and everyone wants to live longer, and today every scientist are trying to figure out the construction of the body and try to rectify and make people longer with a cost, and every religion is promising the hell and heaven according to their doing and trying to capitalise on the fear of the people.
Sir you asked me about how my practice is going on it is going on really great, if one wants to achieve the next stage in life first they need to know what is their goal. If someone is telling that yoga is a way of life then one should know what is the meaning of Yoga and for which it is related to and then only one can understand what is the process and what is happening and how it can be responsibly taken care and so on.
Today the everyone claiming that their religion is great because no religion is helping anyone because the results are same in all the religion and they are scared so they are trying to put down each other, if you are a scientist and the theory which you believe in doesn’t work I don’t think you will follow it you will just leave it and go on and try to find the next, the same thing is happening with the Indian knowledge every gurus, scholars and vidwans are only giving lectures about how great is Devanagri and the Veda’s, Upanishads, Yoga sutras and so on and nobody showing what is the results by practicing it, why one should die with such difficulties by getting up early in the morning and doing so many asana, pranayama and other things.
If someone really gives the meaning and benefits of our Indian knowledge definitely their will be a big paradigm shift. I will give a small understanding of mine about Yoga it is process of joining and teaming of cells it starts from the time the sperm hatches with the egg and starts adding cells in the mother womb because this body is not a unicellular organism it is a multicellular organism, and in yoga sutra the first pada is Samadhi pada which tells about the behaviourism of the formation of this body the strength and weakness of it, hope you find some more interesting factors if we try to look at an engineering point of view.

Regards,

B S Ravindranath

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com>: Jul 24 01:19PM -0700 

Dear Ravindranathji,

Shri Ramji will reply to your mail. I had a look at your mail and find the
following interesting;
 
< - - - - - - - - if you are a scientist and the theory which you believe
in doesn’t work I don’t think you will follow it you will just leave it and
go on and try to find the next, the same thing is happening with the Indian
knowledge - - - - - ->
 
Having been in the Scientific profession for more than four decades, I can
assure you that science is yet to say the last word in any subject. Many
scientists may think that our knowledge of creation of matter is complete,
but really it is not so. Just to give you an example, it in only very
recently that it has been found that there is dark matter in this universe,
which in fact, is much more than the visible matter in the universe. So
also in all other areas, where new knowledge is emerging and many old
concepts are being discarded. But in the spiritual matters, we have the
Vedas and Upanishads, which we consider as the eternal texts.

 
Regards,
skb

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Respected Vinod ji,

Thanks for comments.

As I proposed in my working hypothesis and as you commented on science, both kinds of knowledge (samādhi or science) cannot be taken for granted. Therefore, we should try all possibilities and compare the outcomes. If we find the same results/conclusions from all methods and we get consensus, then perhaps that knowledge might be close to the fundamental truth.

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Ram

7/25/16

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Neuroscience & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Monday, 25 July 2016 4:35 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear participants,

In support of earlier mail, null findings of dark matter from LUX experiment is a point to be noted. https://www.theguardian.com/science/life-and-physics/2016/jul/24/latest-results-.

Vinod Sehgal

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 12:14 PM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Dear participants,

About 100 years ago, Self, consciousness, mind, thoughts, dark matter, dark energy were not part of study and research of mainstream science. however, with the advent of new technologies in areas of neuro-science and Physics/Cosmology, scientists have started venturing into the territories which hitherto were considered the exclusive preserve of metaphysicts and spiritualists. Consequently, neuro-scientists have started  bringing out bizarre theories  -- both quantum and non-quantum one, wherein they postulate the birth of Self, mind, thoughts and consciousness out of brain. Similarly thousand of Physicists are engaged in Projects involving millions of dollars  since years for discovery of dark matter and dark energy.but without any success

Both neuro scientists  and Physicists are groping in dark in their respective searches. And they will continue to grope in dark in future also.  If  a thing is not present in any area, how will one find that in that area? A needle is lost outside a of  room, you can't find the same in room however microscopically you may search in the room.

Similarly, consciousness, self, mind, thoughts do not originate/ lie within the neuronic physicality of brain as known to Science of the day. On similar lines, dark matter and dark energy are also beyond the physicality of baryonic matter and physical  energy of 4 fundamental forces.  That is why scores of neuro-scientists and physicists are wandering in wilderness in their respective searches despite the fact that on every day some new innovative and sophisticated theory  appears.

Regards

Vinod sehgal

[Ravindranath B S]

Sri Ramji,

                I am glad I could finally find someone who could say about hypothesis and reality, today our scholars have made many realities to look like hypothesis but I think our ancients never believed in hypothesis and they were very practical I believe, as I have said the yoga starts as the two gametes join and form a cell and start cleaving and adding the cell to form the body and after the gestation one is born and that is Samadhi, and that is why the first step (pada) is called Samadhi pada and it is like the manual of that formation and it describes the intention and behaviourism of the formation if we understand that we can move to the second step (pada) that is sadana pada and make the difference in intention and the behaviourism.

                I am an engineer by profession and not by degree and I don’t believe in hypothesis, I repair and refurbish the high tech multi axis CNC machine tool and I can understand the machine better and make them work better, and someone doesn’t know the technology and logic that how it works it doesn’t become hypothesis, our physical body is one of the best machine and Patanjali has tried to describe what is this formation characteristic and how it can be put in order and how it can used but many of our yoga school straight move to the middle of the second step and teach astanga yoga with knowing the behaviour pattern of the formation how one can move to the second step sadana pada. I believe in mind and body relation I have tried to talk many yoga teachers the same but they never understand.

                The formation is body, mind and theory that is Yantra (machine) Tantra (logic) and Mantra (theory), I believe our ancients were masters in sound technology (Shabha jnana the 9^th sutra of Samadhi pada describes about it) today we use the sound technology in many areas, I hope they discovered the whole universe through Shabha jnana we may not be understanding that doesn’t mean it is a hypothesis, our education system is not supporting in enhancing our knowledge of Life and living.

                Everyone wants to live long but I could not understand why and everyone is busy in finding the ways and means to find a solution to live longer, anyways Sri Ramji I don’t know whether I have been able to put forward what I believe in a understanding way, I have also come into contact with Dr Malali Gowda who is working on biodiversity and DNA life it is a very interesting subject like neuro science and I welcome all the logical information about life.

                I am just a beginner in this subject of life

 

 

Regards,
B S Ravindranath

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com>: Jul 24 01:19PM -0700 

 

Dear Ravindranathji,

Shri Ramji will reply to your mail. I had a look at your mail and find the
following interesting;
 
< - - - - - - - - if you are a scientist and the theory which you believe
in doesn’t work I don’t think you will follow it you will just leave it and
go on and try to find the next, the same thing is happening with the Indian
knowledge - - - - - ->
 
Having been in the Scientific profession for more than four decades, I can
assure you that science is yet to say the last word in any subject. Many
scientists may think that our knowledge of creation of matter is complete,
but really it is not so. Just to give you an example, it in only very
recently that it has been found that there is dark matter in this universe,
which in fact, is much more than the visible matter in the universe. So
also in all other areas, where new knowledge is emerging and many old
concepts are being discarded. But in the spiritual matters, we have the
Vedas and Upanishads, which we consider as the eternal texts.

 

 
Regards,
skb

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Ram,

I don't wish to get into a debate here.

Patanjali defines the term samAdhi in his work.

We don't need to redefine it.  You can 

create a new terminology for your definition.

Redefinition is a peculiar misplaced imposition

on the creative literature.  Rampant in the west!

I would request to avoid.

Best wishes,

BM

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Respected vidwans Dr. Bijoy ji and shri Ravindranath ji,

Thanks for excellent comments. 

I am not trying to redefine various Samādhi states. I am just trying to analyze them based on various claims made by various groups. While doing that, I came up with a scientifically testable hypothesis. My goal is to investigate if we can reject this hypothesis with scientific evidence.

 My working hypothesis is as follows:

 

Nirvikalpa Samādhi (presumably the highest level of Samādhi) is also mind-brain based because it has a neural basis; the Self does not leave the mind-brain system because self-related cortical and subcortical midline structures are still activated, and Samādhi-state knowledge has significant subjective biases because it depends on metaphysical beliefs. Thus, this knowledge is also controversial and we cannot take it for granted; for example, compare atheist systems Buddhism/Jainism vs. theist Vedānta vs. other religions.

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Ram

7/27/16

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Ram,

As I said before, samAdhi is an experiential state by definition,

it is not an observational product.  You tacitly assume that an

experience is a brain function.  Here you have to apply more

of psychology.  My difficulty is the use of the word samAdhi 

in your definition.  If the moderators allow, such going around

the bush might continue.  But it is an ill-posed question.

BM

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Bijoy ji,

Thanks for your comments.

Bijoy Misra  Jul 26, 2016

I don't wish to get into a debate here. Patanjali defines the term samAdhi in his work. We don't need to redefine it. You can create a new terminology for your definition. Redefinition is a peculiar misplaced imposition on the creative literature. Rampant in the west! I would request to avoid.

 

Vimal

I am not trying to redefine various Samādhi states. I am just trying to analyze them based on various claims made by various groups. While doing that, I came up with a scientifically testable hypothesis. My goal is to investigate if we can reject this hypothesis with scientific evidence. My working hypothesis is as follows:

 

Nirvikalpa Samādhi (presumably the highest level of Samādhi) is also mind-brain based because it has a neural basis; the Self does not leave the mind-brain system because self-related cortical and subcortical midline structures are still activated, and Samādhi-state knowledge has significant subjective biases because it depends on metaphysical beliefs. Thus, this knowledge is also controversial and we cannot take it for granted; for example, compare atheist systems Buddhism/Jainism vs. theist Vedānta vs. other religions.

 

Bijoy Mishra (July 29, 2016)

As I said before, samAdhi is an experiential state by definition, it is not an observational product. You tacitly assume that an experience is a brain function. Here you have to apply more of psychology. My difficulty is the use of the word samAdhi in your definition. If the moderators allow, such going around the bush might continue. But it is an ill-posed question.

Vimal

NO! You have misconstrued. My framework is NOT materialism; I am not assuming that an experience is a brain function. My framework is an extended dual-aspect monism, where each entity-state has inseparable mental and physical aspects. So SamAdhi state of our mind-brain system also has inseparable 1pp-mental (such as experiences related to SamAdhi) and 3pp-physical aspects (such as related neural-network and its activities, which we can publically measure using say functional MRI; there are many articles on this topic, just use google scholar). 1pp: 1^st person perspective, 3pp: 3^rd pp. As mentioned before, I am NOT using my definition of SamAdhi. I am just using whatever is already there in our System and Sāṃkhya with the help of Vinod ji.  My working hypothesis is crystal clear.

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Ram

7/29/16

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Ram,

You are assuming what samAdhi is.  First you need to understand and appreciate what the word implies.

I think you would benefit to gain an understanding of samAdhi by analyzing various scriptural interpretations

or purely experimenting by following the recommended path of Patanjali.   Bharatiya Vidvat Parishat 

is a Sanskrit and scripture analysis group.  Hence you had an ill posed question there.  In order that

your hypothesis may be tested, the participants must have an understanding of samAdhi and should

be able to analyze the experience in a neuroscience point of view.    If you wish semantic interpretation,

you may study some mImAmsA literature on technical word definitions.  Others in this list might give you

different directions.

Thank you.

BM 

  

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Ram,

You are assuming what samAdhi is.  First you need to understand and appreciate what the word implies.

I think you would benefit to gain an understanding of samAdhi by analyzing various scriptural interpretations

or purely experimenting by following the recommended path of Patanjali.   Bharatiya Vidvat Parishat 

is a Sanskrit and scripture analysis group.  Hence you had an ill posed question there.  In order that

your hypothesis may be tested, the participants must have an understanding of samAdhi and should

be able to analyze the experience in a neuroscience point of view.    If you wish semantic interpretation,

you may study some mImAmsA literature on technical word definitions.  Others in this list might give you

different directions.

Thank you.

BM 

--

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

My Question is this is there any person anywhere in the world who will be in a state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi in a lab for a scientist to experiment.

[Bijoy Misra]

The fifth below is Smrti.  You are in right thinking.

You may refer to some classes I taught on the topic.

http://patanjaliyoga2.wixsite.com/frogpond

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:37 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected & learned Sh Bijay Misra and Dr Ram,

What Misraji has stated appears right to me.

Rishi Patanjali has very clearly defined in 2nd Sutra of Ist Pada as to what Yog is : Yoga Chitta Vriti Nirodha. Here the words chitta and vritti carry very elaborative  and deep meaning. Chitta does not implies  mind and further mind, chitta and thoughts are also not synonym.  Chitta is  one of the Ist derivative of Aadi  ( Muula) Prakriti of Samkhyaa. Chitta is one of derivative in Causal (kaarana) realm of nature. Chitta takes birth and comes into existence before Manas, Buddhi and 10 senses, belonging to Astral ( Suukshma Jagat) take birth and assume their shape It is only after achieving Savikalapa Samaadhi that one can observe /see Chitta and its working. Nirvikalapa Samaadhi is  a stage higher than that of Savikalapa Smaadhi. Chitta is seen/observed and its mechanism also oberved in Savikalpa Samaadhi. All these observations are made in Sattva Pradhaana Savikalpa Samaadhi only. In Tammas, chitta reverts to Nidra and Sushaptti ( again Vrittis) and in Rajas Pradhaana , there is no focus on Chitta.

Than second word is vritti which implies all type of Vichaaras -- thoughts. There are thousand of thoughts. But Patanjalai has  clasified all type of thoughts ( vrittis) in 5 broad categories viz Pramaana ( Evidence) , Viprayya ( Illusion), Vikalpa ( Imagination/fantasy), Nidra ( Sleep), Sushapatti ( deep sleep without any thought)

See above Patanjali has even treated sleep and deep sleep also  as some vritti

So Patanjali has stated that when all the above 5 categories of Vrittis are brought under control or made latent ( Nirodhha), state of yog is achieved. . For achieving this state, for higher category of Sadhaakas, having dominantly Sattava Pradhaana minds and body, he has prescribed twin means of Abhyaasa cha Viragayaa. However, for medium and lower categories of Saadhakas, having dominance of Rajjas and Tamas, he has prescribed Ashtaanga Yog, with 8 fold steps. In this 8 fold path, yama is the Ist step and  sammadhi is the last step.

So  Samaadhi is the state when  all the 5 categories of Vrittis ( Vichaaras/thoughts including sleep and deep sleep) are controlled or  made inactive or dormant or suppressed ( Nirodha)

Vinod Sehgal

[Hnbhat B.R.]

"We note that the person's name was Patanjala, the technique going by his name is Patanjali."

We

On 29-Jul-2016 4:13 pm, "Bijoy Misra" <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The fifth below is Smrti.  You are in right thinking.
>
> You may refer to some classes I taught on the topic.
> http://patanjaliyoga2.wixsite.com/frogpond
>

"We note that the person's name was Patanjala, the technique going by his name is Patanjali."
From the lessons in the site.

Strange Statement!

We know the name of author of YS is Patanjali, which is defined as पतन्नञ्जलौ === पतञ्जलिः, as known from a verse:

योगेन चित्तस्य पदेन वाचां मलं शारीरस्य च वैद्यकेन।
योऽपाकरोत्तं प्रवरं मुनीनां पतञ्जलिं प्रांजलिरानतोऽस्मि॥

He is known by the name पतञ्जलि .

Thanks for the new information.

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Bijoy ji,

Thanks for your comments.

As I mentioned in one of my previous emails, my understanding of 3 types of samAdhi is as follows: 

As per (Yoga of Sri Chinmoy, 2016), “Savikalpa, Nirvikalpa and Sahaja Samadhi [:] There are three types of samādhi: Savikalpa samādhi, Nirvikalpa samādhi and Sahaja samādhi.

 

In Savikalpa samādhi there can be thoughts inside the trance, but the trance will not be disturbed or perturbed. The thoughts are like children playing in a room when the father is deeply absorbed in his studies. The children are playing, but they do not disturb him. So in Savikalpa samādhi there can be a turbulence of thoughts and ideas, but the divine trance that the seeker is enjoying will not be affected.

 

In Nirvikalpa samādhi there is no thought, no idea, nothing whatsoever. All is tranquility, or you can say tranquility’s flood. Here nature’s dance comes to an end. The restless activity of human nature cannot play its role. There is no thought, no idea, no form, only the transcendental Silence and boundless Peace, Light and Delight. In this expanse of infinite Peace, Light and Delight, there exist only the seeker and his Beloved Supreme, who have become one.

 

Then comes a samādhi known as Sahaja samādhi. In this samādhi, after having attained the highest realm of consciousness, one can remain on earth and enter into multifarious activities while maintaining his highest realization. It is as if one is sitting quietly inside a jet plane which is flying at a speed of seven-hundred miles per hour, but one does not notice any motion at all. In Sahaja samādhi one maintains the highest transcendental consciousness within and, at the same time, throws himself into the world’s activities in order to transform humanity and free humanity from ignorance. This samādhi is for those who have reached the Highest and whom the Highest Absolute Supreme wants to manifest Himself in and through” (some spelling editings are mine).

 

Any kind of experience has neural-basis; so as long as we are aware and experience, there will always be neural-basis. In all types of SamAdhi, there is always correlated neural basis, and there are always subjective biases. This is the null hypothesis for testing. Let us investigate if we can reject it.

Cheers!

Regards,

Ram

7/29/16

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Neuroscience & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Samadhi is not trance. There are no neural basis to explain Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Shaja Nirvikalpa Samdhi. An experience should have a subject and object relationship. Can there be a neural basis where there is no subject object relationship? As far as science can go one can go till the level of Samadhi with vikalpa. Science or Neuro science cannot explain a state where there is no Subject Object relation or a Non dual state. Mathematically models can be designed where the observer himself can be apart of the of the observed but would like to know if such a model has been arrived at.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Good observation Dr. Bhat. Who is Patanjala?

--

[Bijoy Misra]

That line is due to Swami Sarvagatananda (http://www.swamisarvagatananda.org)

who mentioned it thirty years ago.  I have not checked further.

I taught and did the site after Swami passed away.

I will look and learn.  It could be one of those local variations.  I left it as a tribute 

to the deceased Swami.

  

--

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

There cannot be any such variations Patanjala is not Patanjali

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bijoy Misra

Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 8:50 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Hypothesis related to Samadhi

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Ajitji,

I am ignorant on that.  I will learn through the efforts in India Discovery Center.

Thank you for reading the blog.

BM

[Hnbhat B.R.]

E

On 29-Jul-2016 8:49 pm, "Ajit Gargeshwari" <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good observation Dr. Bhat. Who is Patanjala?
>

I don't know. Bijoy Mishra may know. It is from the Yoga teaching link he has given.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

What is India Discovery centre. This is what Wiki has to say about Patanjali.

The compound name Patañjali has been explained by Sanskrit commentators in two ways. The first explanation of the word is añjalau patan iti patañjali (Patañjali is one falling into folded hands), which is a mayūravyaṁsakādi compound with śakandhvādi Sandhi.^[9] The name comes from a legend about his birth which says that Śeṣa, the divine serpent-king, incarnated as a snakelet and fell into the folded hands (Anjali Mudra) of a Brahmin.^[9] The second explanation parses the word as a Bahuvrihi compound patanto namaskāryatvena janānāmañjalayo yasmin viṣaye sa (He for whom the folded hands of people are falling is Patañjali).^[9] The compound name Patan jali: "Patan" is 'bank' and "Jal" is 'water', in the Sindhi language of the Indus Valley Civilization.^[10]

[Bijoy Misra]

As I said, I have not examined.  I will look and report by Jan.

Currently I am quoting Swami S.  Please ignore if not to the taste.

I have two more chapters of YS to do in the next two years.

Shall get to it.

BM

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

Yes, Samadhi is sama+ dhi. . The Yogasutra begins with the Samadhi-pada.

Regards,

skb

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Bijoyji,

The puranas such as the Bhagavata Purana, Matsya Purana and Vayu Purana tell us that it is Patanjali. It could be that late Swami Sarvagatanandaji meant Patanjali but there might have been a typo in the text and the correction sheet could have been added at the end of the book.

Regards,

skb

[Bijoy Misra]

You could be right.  I those days of the '80s Swami would recite various things

to make his point.  It is my ignorance and acceptance.  I will try to overcome.

Best regards,

BM

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Ajit ji,

Thanks for excellent comments!

Ajit Gargeshwari Jul 29, 2016

Samadhi is not trance. There is no neural basis to explain Nirvikalpa

Samadhi and Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi. An experience should have a subject and object relationship. Can there be a neural basis where there is no subject-object relationship? As far as science can go one can go till the level of Samadhi with vikalpa. Science or Neuroscience cannot explain a state, where there is no Subject-Object relation or a Nondual state. Mathematically models can be designed where the observer himself can be a part of the of the observed but would like to know if such a model has been arrived at.

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

 

Vimal

Very interesting query!

 

Yes, there must be a neural basis when there is no subject-object relationship, and also for anything we can think of. For example, parietal lobe (responsible for discrimination between subject and object) is deactivated and frontal lobe is more activated (for the unification of subject and object) at this state compared to normal subjects.

 

“The neural correlates (the physical aspect of the samādhi state of brain-mind system) include (i) happiness center in amygdala-NN, (ii) visual areas, (iii) parietal lobe deactivation for losing discrimination of subject and objects, and the activation of frontal lobe for the unification of subject and objects, respectively.” (Endnote 77 and Section 4.1.2. of (Vimal, 2012c)).

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Ram

7/29/16

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Neuroscience & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

I posed the question to Shri Vimalji about his views on the Theory of Rebirth, which is the corner-stone of the indian philosophy. Vimalji appeared to be sceptic about the  the Theory of Rebirth, .  That itself shows the limitation of the neuro-science, for discussing theissues of  Indian philosophy.

Regards,

skb

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Smadhi and Rebirth are unrelated. We should be focusing only Consciousness and neuroscience. Let us not get into belief systems if we talking about serious philosophy on this thread

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

sam +ādhi rather

DB

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

In a 4^th century Vākāṭaka inscription the name occurs as पटञ्चल

Best

DB

--

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Sunil ji and Ajit ji,

Thanks for further comments and elaboration.

Sunil Bhattacharjya (Jul 29, 2016): Yes, Samadhi is sama+dhi. The Yogasutra begins with the Samadhi-pada. I posed the question to Shri Vimalji about his views on the Theory of Rebirth, which is the corner-stone of the Indian philosophy. Vimalji appeared to be sceptic about the Theory of Rebirth. That itself shows the limitation of the neuroscience, for discussing the issues of Indian philosophy.

Ajit Gargeshwari (Jul 30, 2016): Samadhi and Rebirth are unrelated. We should be focusing only Consciousness and neuroscience. Let us not get into belief systems if we talking about serious philosophy on this thread. 

Vimal: Science requires reproducible empirical evidence for scientific research. The Samādhi state has robust reproducible evidence, but rebirth lacks such evidence. Therefore, let us first try our best rigorously to reject the Samādhi related hypothesis. My understanding is that science does not prove anything; it only rejects a hypothesis if we find a single contradiction in it. As long as a hypothesis is not rejected we cautiously implement it in our life.

Cheers!

Regards,

Ram

7/30/16

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Neuroscience & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Ajitji,

With the Jnana and the Yoga one can get out of the grip of Prakrti and become Jivanmukta in this life itself  and Videhamukta at the end of this life and not to be reborn. Thus one can look at the relation Samadhi and the Cycle of Death and Rebirth.. Those who do not believe in the Cycle of death and rebirth will not understand the Hindu way of looking at what one can achieve through Yoga. If desired I can elaborate on this.

Regards,

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Thanks Sunilji I don’t need an elaboration. As I have said before let’s keep aside rebirth

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Sunil ji,

Thanks for the information and comments.

Sunil Bhattacharjya (Jul 30, 2016)

With the Jnana and the Yoga, one can get out of the grip of Prakṛti and become Jivanmukta in this life itself and Videhamukta at the end of this life and not to be reborn. Thus, one can look at the relation Samādhi and the Cycle of Death and Rebirth. Those who do not believe in the Cycle of death and rebirth will not understand the Hindu way of looking at what one can achieve through Yoga. If desired I can elaborate on this.

Vimal

According to Buddha, at Samādhi, we get mukti/liberation from our daily sufferings that are are still present as we do not have control on them, but we do not feel them. This is because we acquire Ānanda (Bliss) by maximally activating our pleasure centers in our brain (Wikipedia, 2016), which is many times stronger than our quotidian sufferings. As you might know, Buddhism is an atheist religion which rejects the existence of soul/self after death because there is no robust evidence. 

Cheers!

Regards,

Ram

7/30/16

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Neuroscience & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Vimalji,

I think you need to study more on Buddhism, before comparing what Lord Buddha  taught with what the Vedanta teaches. Lord Buddha never said that there is no God?  When some monks asked Lord Buddha whether there was God or not he was silent on that and instead  he asked them first to follow his teachings, which he already imparted. Seeing this Ananda (a disciple and an associate of Lord Buddha) asked Lord Buddha the reason for his silence and he replied that either way the questioners would not understand whether he says God exists or not. It was only later on that Lord Buddha gave the advanced teaching to his advanced disciples, citing that Sariputra realized that the five sheaths are empty, and that is similar to what the Vedanta says. The Jivanmukta does realize that through samyak jnana and yoga he could become  free and no longer needs to be within shackles of the five sheaths.

All these are beyond the scope of the neurological studies and it is better that  the neuro-scientists realize their  limitations, sooner than later.

Cheers,

skb

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Sunil ji,

Thanks for comments.

Sunil Bhattacharjya (Jul 31, 2016)

I think you need to study more on Buddhism, before comparing what Lord Buddha taught with what the Vedanta teaches. Lord Buddha never said that there is no God?  When some monks asked Lord Buddha whether there was God or not he was silent on that and instead he asked them first to follow his teachings, which he already imparted. Seeing this Ananda (a disciple and an associate of Lord Buddha) asked Lord Buddha the reason for his silence and he replied that either way the questioners would not understand whether he says God exists or not. It was only later on that Lord Buddha gave the advanced teaching to his advanced disciples, citing that Sariputra realized that the five sheaths are empty, and that is similar to what the Vedanta says. The Jivanmukta does realize that through samyak jnana and yoga he could become free and no longer needs to be within shackles of the five sheaths. All these are beyond the scope of the neurological studies and it is better that the neuro-scientists realize their limitations, sooner than later.

Vimal

My understanding has been that Buddhism and Jainism are atheist religions, whereas Vedanta is theist system. There are two divisions in Buddhism: older Theravada and newer Mahayana. Perhaps, God was introduced later in Mahayana. In addition, there is no soul after death in Buddhism. In Islam, there is absolutely NO re-incarnation/rebirth. In other words, various religions contradict each other; so it is hard to understand which one is correct and which one is wrong. Thus, scientific research on rebirth theory is not very useful. We can believe whatever we want for our own self-satisfaction, but we need robust reproducible data for science to make models. Even Nirvikalpa Samādhi state is extremely hard to attain; however, there are many scientific articles for finding neural basis of various levels of Samādhi state. Therefore, it is not too bad to generate working hypothesis. So let us try our best to reject it.

 

As per Wikipedia, “In Buddhism, dukkha is one of the three marks of existence, along with impermanence and anattā (non-self).^[78]Buddhism, like other major Indian religions, asserts that everything is impermanent (anicca), but, unlike them, also asserts that there is no permanent self or soul in living beings (anattā).^[79][80][81] The ignorance or misperception (avijjā) that anything is permanent or that there is self in any being is considered a wrong understanding, and the primary source of clinging and dukkha.^[82][83][84] […]

 

Rebirth refers to a process whereby beings go through a succession of lifetimes as one of many possible forms of sentient life, each running from conception to death.^[97] In Buddhist thought, this rebirth does not involve any soul, because of its doctrine of anattā (Sanskrit: anātman, no-self doctrine) which rejects the concepts of a permanent self or an unchanging, eternal soul, as it is called in Hinduism and Christianity.^[98]According to Buddhism there ultimately is no such thing as a self in any being or any essence in any thing.^[99] […]

 

[a] Anatta, Encyclopedia Britannica (2013), Quote: "Anatta in Buddhism, the doctrine that there is in humans no permanent, underlying soul. The concept of anatta, or anatman, is a departure from the Hindu belief in atman ("the self").";
[b] Steven Collins (1994), Religion and Practical Reason (Editors: Frank Reynolds, David Tracy), State Univ of New York Press, ISBN 978-0791422175, page 64; "Central to Buddhist soteriology is the doctrine of not-self (Pali: anattā, Sanskrit: anātman, the opposed doctrine of ātman is central to Brahmanical thought). Put very briefly, this is the [Buddhist] doctrine that human beings have no soul, no self, no unchanging essence.";
[c] John C. Plott et al (2000), Global History of Philosophy: The Axial Age, Volume 1, Motilal Banarsidass, ISBN 978-8120801585, page 63, Quote: "The Buddhist schools reject any Ātman concept. As we have already observed, this is the basic and ineradicable distinction between Hinduism and Buddhism";
[d] Katie Javanaud (2013), Is The Buddhist 'No-Self' Doctrine Compatible With Pursuing Nirvana?, Philosophy Now;
[e] David Loy (1982), Enlightenment in Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta: Are Nirvana and Moksha the Same?, International Philosophical Quarterly, Volume 23, Issue 1, pages 65-74.”

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Ram

7/31/16

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Neuroscience & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Sunday, 31 July 2016 2:02 PM, sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Vimalji,

I think you need to study more on Buddhism, before comparing what Lord Buddha  taught with what the Vedanta teaches. Lord Buddha never said that there is no God?  When some monks asked Lord Buddha whether there was God or not he was silent on that and instead  he asked them first to follow his teachings, which he already imparted. Seeing this Ananda (a disciple and an associate of Lord Buddha) asked Lord Buddha the reason for his silence and he replied that either way the questioners would not understand whether he says God exists or not. It was only later on that Lord Buddha gave the advanced teaching to his advanced disciples, citing that Sariputra realized that the five sheaths are empty, and that is similar to what the Vedanta says. The Jivanmukta does realize that through samyak jnana and yoga he could become  free and no longer needs to be within shackles of the five sheaths.

All these are beyond the scope of the neurological studies and it is better that  the neuro-scientists realize their  limitations, sooner than later.

Cheers,

skb

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Vimalji,

If you think Buddhism is atheist, so be it for you, If you think you don't have to study more about Buddhism, I have no issue.  I cannot ignore what I wrote from my understanding.. I also cannot ignore the Tathagaat-garbha" in Buddhism, which goes from one birth to the other. I also cannot ignore the mention of "Brahman" in the Buddhist sutta. I also cannot ignore the promulgation of Mahayana by Lord Buddha,

So as advised by Ajitji, this discussion ends here.

Sincerely,

skb