RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Englis h spelling of Sanskrit word

[N.R.Joshi]

Dear Prof. Joshi,   In my view, the sound of H is necessary here i.e. Hrada and Hraasa. Regards,

Shankarji Jha,
Professor of Sanskrit,
Deptt of Sanskrit,
Panjab University,
Chandigarh-160014, INDIA

> From: gira...@juno.com
> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 16:59:01 +0000
> To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} English spelling of Sanskrit word
>
> Jan 3, 2014
>
> Respected Scholars, Namaskar!
>
> How do you spell Sanskrit word for lake Rhada or Hrada?
> In the same way Hraasa or Rhaasa (for decrease or attenuation)?
> Thanks. N.R.Joshi
> ____________________________________________________________
> Do THIS before eating carbs (every time)
> 1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52c6ec8b998216c8b516est04vuc
>
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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[N.R.Joshi]

Jan 6, 2014

Respected Scholars , Namaskar!

Prof S. Korad,

Thanks for your research paper in Sanskrit. It will take time for me to digest it. However here is a question. I am quoting you here

अपराह्णः , मध्याह्नः , ब्रह्म , बाह्यम् , ह्रासः, प्रह्लादः , आह्वानम् etc. .

The matter is discussed in शिक्षाग्रन्थाः --

हकारं पञ्चमैर्युक्तम् अन्तस्थाभिश्च संयुतम् ।
औरस्यं तं विजानीयात् कण्ठ्यमाहुरसंयुतम् ॥ पाणिनीयशिक्ष

उरस्यम् is पाठान्तरम् (नागेशः शेखरे)

उरसि भवम् उरस्यम् - ’शरीरावयवाद्यत्’ (4-3-55) , ’ तित्स्वरितम्’ (6-1-179)| प्रज्ञादित्वात् अण् - औरस्यम् ।
ङ - ञ - ण - न - म -- are वर्गपञ्चमाः । य - र- ल- वाः अन्तस्थाः ।
Examples are given . Here, in all, the हकार is to be pronounced as if it is the second letter . The sound should emanate from the उरस् (chest).

We come across people , even scholars , pronouncing in the same order as they are written. It is due to lack of knowledge of शिक्षा ।
Unquote.

Are you saying we should say "Pralhaada instead Prahlaada?"

We wright "Hrada (Lake) but we should pronounce Rhada? "

If I am wrong, please correct me. I always learn something new from your posting. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. N.R.Joshi


-----------------------------------------------------
Please note: message attached

From: Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} English spelling of Sanskrit word
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 21:39:36 +0530


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[Hnbhat B.R.]

Thanks for Prof.Korada, for the explanation for pronouncing the "h" "as if it is the second letter". for the word उरस्य or औरस्य in the Panini's ShikSha, following the line of Kaundinya ShikShaa ---

 कौण्डिन्यशिक्षा -

हकारान्नणमा ऊर्ध्वाः पूर्वं तु प्रसरन्ति हात् ।

​which almost follows the explanation. It is almost the same as Prof. Korada has interpreted combining both:

"Here, in all, the हकार is to be pronounced as if it is the second letter . The sound should emanate from the उरस् (chest)"

​Please note the emphasis "as if it is" and not exactly it is changed as the second letter as "the न ण म - letters that follow​ "ह" moved backwards from ह.

So, if we take the Kaundinya's line literally, which strictly applied to अपराह्ण, अह्नाय, मध्याह्न, and ब्रह्म, to अन्तःस्थ-s, यरवल-s,

ह्यः - should pronounced as य्हः, and कह्लार should be कल्हार, प्रह्लाद as प्रल्हाद.

I could not see any problem with these. But,

In अर्हति गर्हाम्, the pronounciation is not different from the pronounciation of ह्रद, or जिह्राति, or ह्रादः।

And गर्ह्य will have to be pronounced as गर्य्हा (garyhaa" 

the "य्" moved before. Hence the "h" it is "as if it is the second letter makes sence.

There may some particular cases, where there won't be differenciation would be similar. In short, the sequences, like the "rh" अर्हा, गर्हा may not different in pronounciation from the "hr" sequence in "ह्रा"| For other y, v, l there is no combination as "yh" "vh" or "llh" I have seen and in those cases, there is no problem of confusion between the two in pronunciation.

I was thinking or उरस्य or औरस्य, वर्ण as special as it is not the place of origin of sound स्थान for any other वर्ण-s listed in the alphabet. But only for this particular case and it looks strange in others "as if it is the second letter" in the above sequences and not as it is the second letter in अर्हन्, अर्हः etc. गर्हा, गर्हते, गर्ह्यः etc. as it would abolish the difference between the two sequences. 

I hope this is the intention of explanation of उरस्य of Panini in accordance to Kaundinya Shiksha.

A note 

 

 

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

Pronuncfiation of  "aparAhnah"  as "aparanhah", "madhyAnah"  as "madhyanhah", "brahma"  as "bramha", "vAhyam"  as "vAyham", "AhvAnam" as "Avahnam" (or the popular "AvAhanam") can be well-taken. However when it comes to deciding whether "hrAsah" to be pronounced as "rAhsah" or "rhAsah" and "prahlAdah" as "pralAhdah" or "prahlAdah", your clarification will be necessary.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[ashish sharma]

Dar Learned Scholars and Guruvars

Pranaam

Can you suggest me that how will we pronounce हृदय ?

regards

Ashish Sharma

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

"Are you saying we should say "Pralhaada instead Prahlaada?"

"We wright "Hrada (Lake) but we should pronounce Rhada? " -- Prof Joshi

As per the prescription in शिक्षाग्रन्थाः , it is प्रल्हाद for प्रह्लाद and र्हद for ह्रद ।

The ऋ in हृदय is light (not to be stressed) just like it is in अमृतम् |

Those , whose Mother Tongue was संस्कृतम् / दैवी वाक् were pronouncing like that and the same is 

registered by Acaryas.

गीती दीर्घी शिरःकम्पी तथा लिखितपाठकः ।

अनर्थज्ञो"ल्पकण्ठश्च षडेते पाठकाधमाः॥ पाणिनीयशिक्षा

The pronunciation has to be learnt thru श्रुति  (listening ) and if it is learnt thru reading there will certainly be mistakes - this is what is meant by लिखितपाठकः।

The 34 or so शिक्षाग्रन्थाः (some of them deal with Vedic matters) available to us are to protect the most important but neglected aspect of pronunciation (my Kerala student says स्फोडवादः for स्फोटवादः) ।

In case of difference , प्रातिशाख्या  would prevail upon शिक्षा (सर्वसम्मतशिक्षा) -also quoted by Allen - Phonetics in Ancient India .

For generations , unfortunately , care , in terms of pronunciation , has been put on back burner

Today if you  alert people on the actual pronunciation , certainly , it  will be amazing and may be incredible too . They have all the way been under the influence of their Mother Tongue.

Two months ago , a good गायक and सङ्गीतदर्शक  was brought to me 'for third opinion'

- is it ब्रह्-म or ब्रह्म (औरस्यम्) . 

Earlier , a great Sanskrit Scholar forced him to change ब्रह्म into ब्रह्-म in all his CDs of Bhagavadgita and  he was to spend 5-6 lakhs.

There was sharp reaction from common people . 

The scholar never mispronounced the word while talking with me - बोद्धारो मत्सरग्रस्ताः ?

I sat with theगायक and corrected across 700 verses of Gita.

What is the problem ? How old is the problem ? Is there any discussion related to this ?

Even Panini was facing the problem . Patanjali and Bhartrhari were seized of this aspect --

under तदस्य तदस्मिन् स्यादिति (5-1-16) (these bricks are sufficient for this building - प्रासादीया इष्टकाः), Patanjali , while discussing the significance of इति in the Sutra remarks -

नैवं शक्यम् , इदानीमेवह्युक्तम् - न ह्युपाधेरुपाधिर्भवति विशेषणस्य वा विशेषणम् इति ?(it is said under उपदेशे’जनुनासिक इत् - बुद्ध्या सामीप्यम् मत्वा ’ इदानीमेव’ इति प्रयोगः)

एवं तर्हि - इतिकरणः क्रियते । ततश्चेद्विवक्षा भवति ।

विवक्षा च द्वयी । अस्त्येव प्रायोक्त्री विवक्षा , अस्ति लौकिकी विवक्षा ।

प्रायोक्त्री विवक्षा - प्रयोक्ता हि मृद्व्या स्निग्धया श्लक्षणया मृदून् स्निग्धान् श्लक्षान् शब्दान् प्रयुङ्क्ते ।

लौकिकी विवक्षा - यत्र यत्र प्रायस्य सम्प्रत्ययः स्यात् , प्राय इति लोको व्यपदिश्यते । न च प्रासादो देवदत्तस्य स्यात् , प्राकारो नगरस्य स्यात् इत्यत्र उत्पद्यमानेन प्रत्ययेन प्रायस्य सम्प्रत्ययः स्यात् !

मृद्व्या =by soft , स्निग्धद्या = by slippery , श्लक्षणया = by coarse , वाचा = with words .

मृदून् = अपभ्रंशान् इत्यर्थः (कैयटः)

So the speakers are not to be depended upon as they are careless in pronunciation and their words are अपभ्रंशाः ।

What Panini means by इति is - if  the intended meaning is understood without a hitch by लोक (= शिष्टलोक) then only the प्रत्यय is to be effected .

This is what is called प्रयोगशरणं व्याकरणम् ।

In Brahmakanda of Vakyapadiyam (155) , Hari remarks that  the Devine Speech is infested with अपभ्रंशाः -

दैवी वाग् व्यवकीर्णेयम् अशक्तैरभिधातृभिः ।

धन्यो’स्मि

Prof.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit,
CALTS,
University of Hyderabad 500046
Ph:09866110741(R),91-40-23010741,040-23133660(O)

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

My question is was was Sanskrit mother tongue? for women were not allowed to learn Sanskrit. It was perhaps a "Father tongue", except probably during the vedic age when Vedic Sanskrit was a spoken language which we never use  in classical language.  Even now or a thousand years back Sanskrit  was and is  a spoken language of the elite, educated or scholars. So vernacular influences must have been very old and even Panini knew that.

If one keeps a language rigid intentionally then one can keep it pure or free from regional language influence else it might not be possible to know what is the correct way to pronounce each and every word with absolute correctness .That is the reason why there is no unanimity even among the siksha granthas. Take for instance English is there any thing called perfect pronunciation an Englishman (even within UK people pronounce the same word differently) an American and Indian would pronounce in a different way

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

Yes, you said it. This reminds me of what Krishnamenon told to an Englishman. He told "I did not pick up English like You did,  I learmt the lamguage". One, who learns a language properly, is expected  speak and write it correctly. May be, in the ancient times the women and the children in the brahmin families just picked up the language and they communicated with the people of other varnas in the common language and the latter could have contaminated their speech. When I visited the Sanskrit speaking village Matthur (Mattur) near Shimoga, I was amazed at seeing the small children speaking Sanskrit fluently. Manu did talk about the existence of two bhAshAs then.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[N.R.Joshi]

[Dr.BVK Sastry (G-Mail-pop)]

Namaste

1. The entire thread of discussion was interesting ; yet inconclusive on the issue. I will make a follow up question: How would one read 'sa-hRu-da-ya' (art -appreciator) - 'su-hR-t'(Friend) ? or even the Panini sutra : hR^ikroranyatarasyAm (1-4-53); hru hvareshChandasi ( 7-2-31) ? Should these sutras be read as Rh-kroranyatarasyAm (1-4-53); Rh- vha-reshChandasi?

2. All the articulation is governed by the realistic experience of the ear. The physiological / machine generated wave for < brah-ma> is NOT the same as <Bram-ha>. So what is the right or better, the original Paninian /Vedic pronunciation of the 'ShishTa's?
< surely, Divine Speech is infested with अपभ्रंशाः - दैवी वाग् व्यवकीर्णेयम् अशक्तैरभिधातृभिः । > and now with ' foreign language phonetics ( mlecchita)'.

3. The 'h' sound English pronunciation standard can be seen at the sites.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio
http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html

The ' h' spelling phonetic value of English simply does not map to the ' Samskrutham - 'ha' sound. Especially in the pronunciation in 'gunita' or 'samyukta'
Mode. The mapping is only partial.

4. Please do not make knee jerk reaction that 'Panineeyas are the ShihsTa's' ; or the 'Vedic pronunciation is the authentic one'. There has been too many variations in the 'uccharaNa' of Samskrutham (Bhashaa and Chandas) with the overlay of the 'regional /prakrit phonetics'. In one of the mails, the note from Kaiyata was marked <मृदून् = अपभ्रंशान् इत्यर्थः (कैयटः) >. The issue of male-female pronunciation is not the point. Even female samskruthamm scholars have been there throughout the history of india.

5. Now the question is this. How would one read 'sa-hRu-da-ya' (art -appreciator) - 'su-hR-t'(Friend) ? or even the Panini sutra : hR^ikroranyatarasyAm (1-4-53); hru hvareshChandasi ( 7-2-31) ? Should these sutras be read as Rh-kroranyatarasyAm (1-4-53); Rh- vha-reshChandasi?

If we cannot answer this question here, how are we going to account for the 'Sindhu /Hindu' linked 'sa-ha' shift ? How is it that the vedic purusha sukta has retained the pronunciation 'sahsra sheershaa purushaH, sahasrAkshaH' sahasrapaat' ; how are we saying sahanaavavatu ?

6. My understanding of the critical word <prasaranti> in the reference : कौण्डिन्यशिक्षा - हकारान्नणमा ऊर्ध्वाः पूर्वं तु प्रसरन्ति हात् । - would be : There is a overlap of the sounds; and the rule is: In the pronunciation, before 'ha' part is complete, the uttara-bhaaga of 'ha' is overlapped by the first-part of the later sounds'. This is the intention of the speaker; and the way the sounds are constructed in the listening. When one listens ' ahnAm' (ketuH) in veda-mantra, one does not say in pronunciation as 'anhAm ketuH'. This happens in almost all 'samyukta akshara pronunciation' and the 'beeja mantra' pronunciations.

I would stand for correction of my views from the learned scholars.

Regards
BVK Sastry


-----Original Message-----
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of N.R.Joshi
Sent: Tuesday, 07 January, 2014 12:54 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Englis h spelling of Sanskrit word


Jan 7, 2014

Respected Scholars, Namakaram !
Dear Prof Korada and Dr. H.N.Bhat

Many thanks to Prof Korada and Dr. H.N.Bhat for enlighten us in correct pronunciation of certain Sanskrit words. I make sure I understand in connection with Brahma. So Brahma is correct and Bahama is wrong. The word Brahma should be pronounced as Bramha/ Am I correct?

I have one more question. How do we write Hansa(Swan), Dhvans (destroy), Sanskaara (impressions)in English? What nasal (Anunaasika) should we use? BVP becomes enjoyable with scholars like Korada and H.N.Bhat. Thanks. N.R.Joshi

Please note: message attached

From: Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Englis h spelling of Sanskrit word
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 22:26:49 +0530




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[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

Prof Joshi --

1. The word Brahma should be pronounced as Bramha/ Am I correct?

yes , it should be औरस्यम् ।

2. How do we write Hansa(Swan), Dhvans (destroy), Sanskaara (impressions)in English? What nasal (Anunaasika) should we use? 

Hamsa , dhvamsa , samskara . The 'm' is used for अनुस्वार ।

Dr B V K Sastry --

1. How would one read 'sa-hRu-da-ya' (art -appreciator) - 'su-hR-t'(Friend) ? or even the Panini sutra : hR^ikroranyatarasyAm (1-4-53);   hru hvareshChandasi ( 7-2-31) ? Should these sutras be read as Rh-kroranyatarasyAm (1-4-53);   Rh- vha-reshChandasi?

सहृदयः - here there is no room for doubt as the letter 'ha' , is followed by 'ऋ’ (and not र - अन्तस्थः) ।

Same is the case with सुहृत्  and  हृक्रोरन्यतरस्याम् ।

In the case of  ह्रुह्वरेश्छन्दसि , since , in both the letters ह is followed by र and व , both ह्रु and ह्व are to be pronounced as औरस्य ।

However , as has already been mentioned , better to depend upon श्रुति , rather than spelling in Devanagari or Roman .

Even during the time of Patanjali , students were not paying special attention to शिक्षा ।

Irrespective of gender and caste , just like in the case of vernaculars and foreign languages  today , much less number of people care for good pronunciation .

As a result प्राकृतम् is prescribed to some people in Sanskrit Dramas .

शिष्टाः are defined under पृषोदरादीनि यथोपदिष्टम् (6-3-109) and they were very particular about the use of language , including pronunciation .

This is what is meant by the word संस्कृतम् , a language that has got संस्कार  - सम् + कृ + क्त (नपुंसके भावे क्तः 3-3-114 ) ,  संस्कृतम् अस्य अस्तीति मत्वर्थीयः अच् , यथा दुग्धा गावः , विभक्ता भ्रातरः , - संस्कृतम् ।

संस्कृतं भक्षाः - is पाणिनिसूत्रम्।

आचार्य हरिनरायणभट्ट did a good विश्लेषणम् । Yesterday I forgot to mention this . We are thankful to him .

धन्यो’स्मि

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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[Prasad J]

Namaste,

Thank you Prof. Korada Mahodaya for you answers. This thread is indeed becoming interesting.

I have one question about pronunciation.

How to pronounce devAḥ at the end of a verse? Will it sound devAhA or devAha? I feel it should be devAhA but some scholars debate it for devAha. Also any reference from shikShA-grantha?

Regards,

J. Prasad

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 7:19 AM, Prasad J <prasad.aj...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

Thank you Prof. Korada Mahodaya for you answers. This thread is indeed becoming interesting.

I have one question about pronunciation.

How to pronounce devAḥ at the end of a verse? Will it sound devAhA or devAha? I feel it should be devAhA but some scholars debate it for devAha. Also any reference from shikShA-grantha?

​Dear friend, 

It is देवः and not देवह or देवहा in which case it would bean a different thing. देवान् हन्तीति or so. It is called विसर्जनीय and neither ह nor हा.

Like the ब्रह्म pronounciation, the pronounciation cannot be represented in writing Devanagari.  

[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste

Why doubt on <  devAḥ > whether it is at the end of a verse? or stand alone as a shabda roopa ?
 

The last phoneme is < visarga ; the transform of the  -jas pratyaya > and it should be pronounced as visarga. Why bring in the <- h> sound ?

Visarga pronunciation causes < breathe to go out of mouth + And come to a stop +  lips open out , before the next reset for any articulation of any varna.

If you change this to <-h> sound, then the last part of the pronunciation would end up as an effort at the < kanTha = Throat> point with <  < breathe flowing out of mouth + stop of effort at Kantha , causing a friction feel +  lips open out , before the next reset for any articulation of any varna.>

 Try out the difference with clean visarga pronunciation  and visarga ending up with a < -ha>. Observe the movements in mouth, air flow. You can see  and feel the difference.

Regards

BVK Sastry

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:49 PM, Prasad J <prasad.aj...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

Thank you Prof. Korada Mahodaya for you answers. This thread is indeed becoming interesting.

I have one question about pronunciation.

How to pronounce devAḥ at the end of a verse? Will it sound devAhA or devAha? I feel it should be devAhA but some scholars debate it for devAha. Also any reference from shikShA-grantha?

Regards,

J. Prasad

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com> wrote:

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

--

 

Regards

 

Dr. B V Venkatakrishna Sastry
(G-Mail)

 

 

[Alankar]

Paranaam learned scholars and Guruvars,

A very interesting thread discussion is going on, and I am overwhelmed with the depth of knowledge.

Still I am confused to use the words used as examples, Is there a sammati how these should be pronounced for us 'atyalpagyaanis'.

ब्रह्म, ब्रह्मा, प्रह्लाद, आह्लाद, सुहृद, ह्यः, आह्वानम्  , मध्याह्न etc.

Thanks,

Alankar

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 12:16:49 AM UTC+5:30, Nanasaheb wrote:

Jan 4, 2014

Prof. S.Misra, Prof Shankarji and Shree Sunil Bhatta, Thanks for you contribution to my question. I appreciated very much. N.R.Joshi
Please note: message attached

From: Shankarji Jha <shanka...@hotmail.com>
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} English spelling of Sanskrit word
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 06:36:30 +0000


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[Prasad J]

Thank you Sastry ji and Bhat ji for your replies.

I have not studied shikShA but just heard from people that both 'ha' and visarga are pronounced from kaNTha. Is it true? Also I have heard that we pronounce visarga short, with sudden stop, when it comes in between of the verse, but pronounce it full when it comes at the end of half or full verse. I may be wrong on this. What is that full pronunciation of visarga and how will be that different from ha-varNa?

Also interesting to know how would we pronounce devahaH? At the of the verse, I always pronounced as devahaha. In the middle of verse, however, I pronounced visarga with sudden stop.

Regards,

J Prasad.

--

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Alright. You are depending on how you pronounce : visarga in ful and visarga short. 

As you have already heard, (if you have correctly heard what is pronounced by others), it is pronounced as  कण्ठ्य as per अकुहविसर्जनीयानां कण्ठः,  equally for कवर्ग and अकार also.

The question discussed in this thread is about हकार which is pronounced as कण्ठ्य, but in combination with certain letters following listed, unlike other कण्ठ्य-s, it is pronounced as उरस्य, and it is unique in pronounciation, which is not in common with any other वर्ण of the alphabhet. It is heard as if it is म्ह, ण्ह, etc. but never written like that and it is a Unique pronounciation called उरस्य and looks like swaped their position in pronounciation.

Now coming to the pronounciation, it is correctly pronounced, but how do hear the विसर्गः - which undergoes in Sandhi, different forms, which are recorded and written as they are pronounced as in Sandhi. Now your case

it is in isoloation, विसर्ग without anything to follow or विसर्ग itself, in certain cases. How do you distinguish the same विसर्ग in देवः, कविः, शम्भुः as ह, हि and हुः or alike as ह?

It is sometimes heard like  ह, हि  or हु but not ह, but इ, or उ imposed on विसर्ग, like the case in ब्रह्म which is not written as ब्रम्ह, but heard as if they are overlapping.

अयोगवाहा विज्ञेया आश्रयस्थानभागिनः।(14)

rules the position of विसर्जनीय, sharing the place of articulation, on which they are imposed. So, the articulation points of अ, इ, उ are shared by the विसर्गनीय also, resulting in the pronounciation as if ह, हि, हु etc. but never देवह, हरिहि or शम्भुहु as it is mistaken, but heard like it.

Others may have offer their opinion on this question. 

Others may debate on what is आश्रयस्थानभागिनः for the अयोगवाह letters. This makes the difference between the pronounciation, रामं (वन्दे) and रामम्. as both are heard alike.

​

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Dr. Bhatji,

You said as follows and you used the most adequate expression "as if - - - - overlapping" and that removes all the misunderstanding :

Quote

the case in ब्रह्म which is not written as ब्रम्ह, but heard as if they are overlapping.

Unquote

Even for a layman the light hissing sound of "h(a)" in "Brahma"  is almost blacked out by the dominant sound of "m(a)".

Regards,

Sunil KB

--

[Prasad J]

Thank you Bhat ji for your answer. May be I would have started a separate thread for this.

I just had a difference of opinion with one of my friend about pronunciation of words like devAH, without anything to follow after visarga. I was mentioning him that this will sound like devAhA, whereas he argued for devAha. He was telling that articulation point 'A' becomes 'a' for visarga. Neither of us had any reference to mention.

Regards,

J Prasad.

--

[N.R.Joshi]

Jan 10 2014

Respected Scholars, Namaskar!

VarNavAda is answer.

Dr. Ajit Gargeshvari has raised relevant question. Sanskrit scholars would like everybody to pronounce Sanskrit words correctly. It preserves purity of Sanskrit and it may even offer merit for obtaining Swarga or Brahmaloka in the next life. That is fine. However language is river. It is going to flow and going to undergo changes. I described before on BVP the Linguistic Principle of Least Efforts. People reduced Chandra to Chandar and Indra to Indar. It is easy to say. This happens in all languages. From pure Sanskrit of the ancient Indian Brahmana Shistas, now India has more than 12 regional impure languages. If the language serves purpose of communication in everyday life, then the language is fulfilling its existence. Here question of pure and impure is irrelevant.

Prof Korada mentioned two word pairs in his posting.(1) Sakrit and Shakrit (2) Sakala and Shakala. It made me laugh because it is good material for promoting my VarNavAda. Here with the change of a single phoneme (VarNa) meaning is changed. So in my opinion for communication of right meaning, right pronunciation of Sanskrit words is required. This becomes obvious in hundreds of Sanskrit words only when one uses VarNavAda (each Sanskrit phoneme is associated with specific semantic element consistent with physical properties of sounds of phonemes).

With VarNavAda, ancient Indian philosophical concepts start resonating with sounds of words. Once the student learns this internal beauty of Sanskrit words, he will start enjoying Sanskrit and makes effort to say it correctly. Correct pronunciation of course is learnt through listing (Shruti) to the right speaker of Sanskrit.
Thanks. N.R.Joshi

--------------------------------------------------





Please note: message attached

From: Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Englis h spelling of Sanskrit word
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 22:47:20 +0530


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http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52d0331e2af72331d1878st01vuc

[Dr.BVK Sastry(G-Mail-IMAP)]

Namaste Joshi ji

Your point on <varnavada> is partly correct and endorsed by traditional schools also. This is a key point and you have been ver strong on this point.

The second part of < Fixed meaning for Varna> is to be taken as a hypothesis for exploration. To make this, historicity of Sanskrit pronunciation is not a key issue.

Additional points for contemplation:

1. On < Sanskrit scholars would like everybody to pronounce Sanskrit words correctly>:

There is nothing wrong in it. Pannini insisted that. Patanjali said how to avoid the 'DushtaH ShabdaH' by the method of 'Shuddha-PaaTha / upa-desha'. It is a Voice-primary tradition. It is not a spelling system, like Latin or Greek OR Hebrew.

Everyone likes vocabulary of their own language to be handled in a 'linguistically and culturally accurate and aesthetic pronunciation. And for Samskrutham, the standards are set - in a way freezed by the Panini tradition. The anchor rule books being Shikhsaa and Vedic recitation. Samskrutham teams are no exception to this rule.

The difference between other languages and Samskrutham is this. For Samskrutham , there is a ' guidance and rule base to make a comparison for compliance or corruption. Mainly, a specific mode of Samskrutham application -Vedas hypothesize that yajna-viniyoga needs a perfection in pronunciation. The rules are made for this purpose. Call it a code compliance in today's lingo. I do not expect everyone in the world of 6000 plus human social languages to hold the same opinion towards 'Samskrutham' as 'a traditional indian vedic school adherent holds'. If the < efficacy of (Samskrutham /Vedic /mantra) sounds to < deliver the Swarga benefit> is not palatable to the current day audience, just leave it out as a faith issue. The standard of pronunciation does not get impacted by this.

If the question is on proper pronunciation of Samskrutham from 'History perspective' tangoed with the 'current period social language usage by regional variations / expectations of Standard (?) language usage ', then the response needs to be made on two fronts:

a) The Shikshaa works are ' Human voice mechanism process output analytics' for a specific goal of generating a particular phoneme. Shikshaa ends at the articulation. Vyakarana picks it up for the word processing. Chandas guides the word sequences for composition. Nirukta-Kosha guides it for the meaning. Jyotisha and Kalpa guide the deployment for yajna purpose. This is NOT history centric analytics or social language analytics. The social language is a pointer to Prakrutham , Apabhramsha -dialects, Mlechha and of course the 'foreign languages'.

It does not ( and should not) matter whether a Kambhoja says a specific veda mantra or Magadha says it; today or ten centuries ago, the standard was and is same. The available voice document in applications would have been user specific.

It is like Tyagaraja's music composition sung over hundred years still are Tyagarajas music composition. So is the case with the Veda suktas attributed to specific Rishi and chandas. One has the option of saying it in a compliant mode or go otherwise. When user makes their own deviation, then it is no more Tyagaraja's composition. It is modified version.

It is true India has the weakness of ' historic written documents' that can be compared to the dead sea scrolls. Then look at the volume and diversity of Samskrutham documents. The sheer volume and diversity of carrying the text in human memory was relatively easy compared to written texts ( Lessons learnt by the destruction of documents that were burnt and destroyed by invaders at Takshashila and Nalanda). Has this in any way disturbed the efficacy of Samskrutham to provide a language-window to the past ? and intellectual deliberations of Indian seers ? So, let us use the available records and understand the properly.

2. On < This happens in all languages. From pure Sanskrit of the ancient Indian Brahmana Shistas, now India has more than 12 regional impure languages. If the language serves purpose of communication in everyday life, then the language is fulfilling its existence. Here question of pure and impure is irrelevant. >

Not necessarily ! This is where the uniqueness of Samskrutham and the rule base comes in. Samskrutham teams have made conscious efforts to maintain the standard of pronunciation of each 'Varna' in a 'word' (= pada) and the 'sukta ( Metrical structure). Rule base is provided to audit and filter out the deviations and corruptions. This is the mechanism of 'ashTa -vikruti pathas', the critical importance of Vyakarana needed in the recitation of 'Krama -PAtha'.

IF Shikhsaa /Pratishakhya shastras identified and provided guidelines for the articulation of varna-maalaa sounds and the rules for proper pronunciation, way back before the current voice analyzing instruments / parameters of analysis like frequency et al came on board for discussion, then there is a purpose and method in it. It could be called empirical process; but the empirical process itself is ' human system anchored'. The sound of 'a' and 'ha' and ya and 'visarga' stand out clearly in a word like 'hyaH' (= yesterday) in Samskrutham. The improper pronunciation 'hayaH' ( =horse) will not be acceptable in the meaning of yesterday.

Similarly sharkut -sakrut / Sakala and Shakala words. It is a language sensitivity continued over centuries.

3. On Varna-vada point 1 < VarNavAda. Here with the change of a single phoneme (VarNa) meaning is changed. So in my opinion for communication of right meaning, right pronunciation of Sanskrit words is required.> Up to this it is perfectly agreeable. There is no difference of opinion. It is also the stand of the traditional schools.

4. On Varna-Vada- point 2 < This becomes obvious in hundreds of Sanskrit words only when one uses VarNavAda (each Sanskrit phoneme is associated with specific semantic element consistent with physical properties of sounds of phonemes).> There are divergent views on this . Does the varna 'ga' carry the same meaning across 'Ga-nesha'- ' 'ga-rdhabhI', 'ga-ruDa'. It is this second point that you may have to push clearly and establish, without any exception to establish your positional statement: < With VarNavAda, ancient Indian philosophical concepts start resonating with sounds of words. Once the student learns this internal beauty of Sanskrit words, he will start enjoying Sanskrit and makes effort to say it correctly. Correct pronunciation of course is learnt through listing (Shruti) to the right speaker of Sanskrit.-- Thanks. N.R.Joshi >

Regards
BVK Sastry

-----Original Message-----
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of N.R.Joshi

Sent: Friday, 10 January, 2014 12:51 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Englis h spelling of Sanskrit word

Jan 10 2014

Respected Scholars, Namaskar!

VarNavAda is answer.

Dr. Ajit Gargeshvari has raised relevant question. Sanskrit scholars would like everybody to pronounce Sanskrit words correctly. It preserves purity of Sanskrit and it may even offer merit for obtaining Swarga or Brahmaloka in the next life. That is fine. However language is river. It is going to flow and going to undergo changes. I described before on BVP the Linguistic Principle of Least Efforts. People reduced Chandra to Chandar and Indra to Indar. It is easy to say. This happens in all languages. From pure Sanskrit of the ancient Indian Brahmana Shistas, now India has more than 12 regional impure languages. If the language serves purpose of communication in everyday life, then the language is fulfilling its existence. Here question of pure and impure is irrelevant.

Prof Korada mentioned two word pairs in his posting.(1) Sakrit and Shakrit (2) Sakala and Shakala. It made me laugh because it is good material for promoting my VarNavAda. Here with the change of a single phoneme (VarNa) meaning is changed. So in my opinion for communication of right meaning, right pronunciation of Sanskrit words is required. This becomes obvious in hundreds of Sanskrit words only when one uses VarNavAda (each Sanskrit phoneme is associated with specific semantic element consistent with physical properties of sounds of phonemes).

With VarNavAda, ancient Indian philosophical concepts start resonating with sounds of words. Once the student learns this internal beauty of Sanskrit words, he will start enjoying Sanskrit and makes effort to say it correctly. Correct pronunciation of course is learnt through listing (Shruti) to the right speaker of Sanskrit.
Thanks. N.R.Joshi

--------------------------------------------------





Please note: message attached

From: Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Englis h spelling of Sanskrit word
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 22:47:20 +0530


____________________________________________________________
Do THIS before eating carbs &#40;every time&#41;
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52d0331e2af72331d1878st01vuc

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[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

(posting of this and अन्वय are delayed due to Internet problem)

Dr Prasad

The question is well answered by विद्वान् भट्टः and विद्वान् शास्त्री |

If it is taken as devAha etc then it will be matIhi (मतीः) and bhUhu(भूः) ।

कौमुदी says अकुहविसर्जनीयानां कण्ठः (प्रातिशाख्या)

’अयोगवाहा विज्ञेयाः आश्रयस्थानभागिनः’ – पाणिनीयशिक्षा ।

Here is लघुशब्देन्दुशेखरे (संज्ञाप्रकरणे) नागेशः –

तत्तद्वर्णोत्पत्तेः प्राक् तत्तत्स्थानादौ जिह्वास्पर्शाद्यनुभवेन तत्तद्वर्णानां तत्तत्स्थानत्वनिर्णये’पि अकुहेत्यादिकथनं साधारणधर्मबोधनाय अनुवादकम् । न त्वेतदेव कण्ठादिस्थानविधायकमिति भ्रमितव्यम् ।

विसर्जनीयपदेनात्र साहचर्यादकाराश्रयस्य ग्रहणम् । अत एव ’अयोगवाहा विज्ञेया आश्रयस्थानभागिनः’ इति शिक्षया न विरोधः ।

पादान्ते is redundant , as explained by Scholars earlier.

Pronunciation has to be learnt thru श्रुति ।

 PaNini fixed  the time of ह्रस्व , दीर्घ and प्लुत  by giving the crow of a cock as a simile (कुक्कुटरुतानुकरणम्) -

ऊकालो’ज्झ्रस्वदीर्घप्लुतः । Otherwise , he would have said आकाल / ईकाल ।

In शिक्षा  he asks to imitate a सौराष्ट्रनारी to pronounce a रङ्ग (= अनुनासिकवर्णः) –

यथा सौराष्ट्रिका नारी तक्राँ इत्यभिभाषते ।

एवं रङ्गाः प्रयोक्तव्याः ...॥ (also याज्ञवल्क्यशिक्षा)

Instead of so many questions(in fact, they are welcomed) on how to pronounce better sit down with a Scholar, preferably with one who systematically learnt Veda and Angas , and learn उच्चारणम् - my suggestion to students .

What Panini follows is वर्णवाद only , but it is just a device and not real - see Manjusa.

Bonus Info :

There are many interesting things in शिक्षाग्रन्थाः –

Connection with आयुर्वेद –

’पक्षे क्षौरं त्रिभिः स्नानं पञ्चभिर्दन्तध्वनम् ..वैद्यानां किं प्रयोजनम् ? – आयुर्वेदः ।

आम्रपलाशबिल्वानाम् अपामार्गशिरीषयोः ।

वाग्यतः प्रातरुत्थाय भक्षयेद्दन्तधावनम् ।।

खदिरश्च कदम्बश्च करवीरकरञ्जकौ ।

सर्वे कण्टकिनः पुण्याः क्षीरिणश्च यशस्विनः॥

तेनास्य करणे सौक्ष्म्यं माधुर्यं चैव जायते ।

त्रिफलां लवणयुक्तां वै भक्षयेत् शिक्षकस्तथा ॥

क्षीणमेधजनन्येषा स्वरवर्णकरी तथा । (याज्ञ..शिक्षा) – for good pronunciation and मेधावर्धनम्

विप्रतिपत्तिः विवादश्च –

युक्तियुक्तं वचो ग्राह्यं न ग्राह्यं गुरुगौरवात् ।

सर्वशास्त्ररहस्यं तद् याज्ञवल्क्येन भाषितम् ॥ ,,

आलस्यात् मूर्खसंयोगाद् भयाद् रोगनिपीडनात्।

अत्यशक्त्याच्च मानाच्च षड्भिर्विद्या विनश्यति ॥(माण्डूक्यशिक्षा)

पुस्तके प्रज्ञयाधीतं नाधीतं गुरुसन्निधौ ।

न भ्राजन्ते सभामध्ये जारगर्भा इव स्त्रियः ॥

एकः सर्वं न जानाति सर्व एकं न विन्दति । (अमोघनन्दिनीशिक्षा)

कृत्वा चावश्यकान् धर्मान् जठरं पर्युपास्य च ।

पीत्वा धूमं घृतं चैव शुचर्भूत्वा ततो वदेत् ॥ ( नारदीयशिक्षा)

 ( धूमपानं is prescribed in चरकसंहिता)

धन्यो’स्मि

 

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[Prasad J]

Thank you Korada ji and Bhat ji for your answers. My question is fully answered.

anugṛhīto 'smi.

Regards,

J Prasad.

2014/1/11 Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>

[Saleel Kulkarni]

Respected Shri. Korada,

 

Thanks for the information.

 

You have mentioned –

{{ कृत्वा चावश्यकान् धर्मान् जठरं पर्युपास्य च ।

पीत्वा धूमं घृतं चैव शुचर्भूत्वा ततो वदेत् ॥ ( नारदीयशिक्षा)

 ( धूमपानं is prescribed in चरकसंहिता) }}

Here does धूमपानं mean smoking of tobacco etc. or just intake of vapour for its soothing effect on the ear-nose-throat cavity?

Warm regards,

 

 

Saleel Kulkarni

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

धूमपानम्  for good pronunciation -

the reference is not  clearly available as to which herbs are useful for this . ंMay be अग्निहोत्रधूम ।

It is not tobacco .

अपस्मारः (Coma) --

पलंकषावचापथ्यावृश्चिकाल्यर्कसर्षपैः ।

जटिलापूतना केशीनाकुलीहिङ्गुचोरकैः ॥

लशुनातिरसाचित्राकुष्ठैर्विड्भिश्च पक्षिणाम् ।

मांसाशिनां यथालाभं , बस्तमूत्रे चतुर्गुणे।

सिद्धमभ्यञ्जनं तैलमपस्मारविनाशनम् ।

एतैश्चैवौषधैः कार्यं धूपनं सप्रलेपनम् ॥ (चरकसंहिता - चिकित्सास्थानम्)

उन्मादः --

प्रसके पीनसे गन्धैः धूमवर्तिं कृतां पिबेत् ।

..........

सेकाञ्जनं प्रथमनं नस्यं धूमं च कारयेत् ॥

वातश्लेष्मात्मद्के प्रायः ...                          ( ,,  ,, )

बालार्को प्रेतधूमश्च वृद्धा स्त्री पल्वलोदकम् ।

रात्रौ दध्यन्नभुक्तिश्च आयुःक्षीणं दिने दिने ॥

वृद्धार्को होमधूमश्च बाला स्त्री निर्मलोदकम् ।

रात्रौ क्षीरान्नभुक्तिश्च आउर्वृद्धिः दिने दिने ॥

आमकपित्थम् अकण्ठ्यानाम् ( चरकसूत्रम्)

In सुश्रुतसंहिता also धूम is prescribed for certain व्याधिs .

धन्यो’स्मि

           

2014/1/12 Saleel Kulkarni <sal...@gmail.com>

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 4:52 AM, Dr.BVK Sastry(G-Mail-IMAP) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste Joshi ji

Your point on <varnavada> is partly correct and endorsed by traditional schools also. This is a key point and you have been ver strong on this point.

The second part of < Fixed meaning for Varna> is to be taken as a hypothesis for exploration. To make this, historicity of Sanskrit pronunciation is not a key issue.

​Anyhow I do not know वर्णवाद which makes synonyms, शकृत् = सकृत् equally correct on differentiation with or without change in meaning.

And where phonetic changes are concerned, as ​metathesis, etc. changing the words, with and without meaning, it has been said:

प्रायो भवेयुः प्रचुरप्रयोगाः प्रामाणिकोदाहरणे प्रतीताः । रूपादिभेदेषु विचारणेषु विचक्षणो निश्चयतामुपैति ॥५३॥

क्वचित्मात्राकृतो भेदः क्वचिद्वर्णकृतोऽत्र च । क्वचिदर्थान्तरोल्लेखाच्छब्दानां रूढितः क्वचित् ॥५४॥

by the lexicographer Purushottama, which is not exclusive for Vedic vocabulary and collected differently pronounced words in his शब्दभेदप्रकाश ---

भवेदमर्ष आमर्षोऽप्यङ्कुरोऽप्यङ्कूर एव च । अन्तरिक्षमन्तरीक्षमगस्त्योऽगस्तिरेव च ॥३॥

he has noticed these and some more pairs.

and for Vedic Vocabulary, Yaska attests the changes, आद्यन्तविपर्यय in his nirukta: "पञ्चविधं निरुक्तम्"

"वर्णागमो वर्णविपर्ययश्च द्वौ चापरौ वर्णविकारनाशौ धातोस्तदर्थातिशयेन योगस्तदुच्यते पञ्चविधं निरुक्तम्"॥ and draws examples for each.

वटु and बटु, शिञ्जिनी and सिञ्जिनी, or शिञ्जारव or सिञ्जारव do not change their meaning, like शकृत् and सकृत् or शकल and सकल.

How वर्णवाद explain this with its fixed meaning for letters according to Mr.Joshi?

For laymen like me, the meaning is fixed by usage and only theories help to justify the meaning by usage and it is the work of lexicographers to record such variation of syllables as Purushottama deva has done, in his special Kosha, I cited, who has written thesarus त्रिकाण्डशेष also शब्दभेदप्रकाश out of interest in recording such variations of syllables with and without meaning. And द्विरूपकोश seems to be listing such words:

"मृणाले तु बिसं बिशम्" both बिस and बिश are used to denote मृणाल.  

There are some more द्विरूपकोश-s by different lexicographers. Purushottamadeva also has written one.

[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste

1. Try for the pronunciation of the words like < ले ह्यः > <मह्यम् >  < बाह्यः> <देवाः  - देवः >  and see the difference that occurs in the pronunciation effort. Observe for the clarity on visarga - anuswara in single and combined varnas.

2. For the poetry lines where one gets the visarga - in the middle and the end of the paada, there are additional rules of the Chandas which guide.

3. Other wise, the visarga sandhi rules apply. from grammar.

4. To get the feel of variations in visarga, in veda, listen carefully to the Sri Rudra prashna - the Namakam -Chamakm  keeping atext in front and following the  vedic chant.  You will be able to see the variations along with the issues of accents.

5. On visarga :Can it be heard independently -  No. The pronunciation of visarga, independnet of swara /vyanjana is possible. It is felt by the speaker at the Kantha sthana.  The ear can not grasp the sound of vsarga independent of the base from where it is produced or associated with. Therefore the default experience in listening is visarga always felt heard along with a swara . Why not a vyanjana ?  For the vyanjana with ardhamaataa kaala can not take the visarga combination -association. And vynajana takes the default a-kaara in pronunciation. It is for this reason, the poeticians consider the savisrga vyanjana varna as a guru ( which requires greater effort and time in articulation). Can visarga have  elongation ? No. But visarga can occur at the end of the deergha swara. (DevAH   - devaH    देवाः  - देवः  Both forms are there in singular and plural. ).

English 'h' as a spelling alone can not explain all these variation issues.  HN Bhat has provided useful details. This is why Samskruthamm is to be learned  as a  Voice culturing (  उच्चारण   ) discipline  and Voice recognition as pure sounds and NOT as a scripted language, where one depends upon fuzzy phonetic system. 

This is the foundational error that Indian Sanskrit schools have inherited from the colonial teaching models and Classical  language teaching model, where very other language of the  world is mapped to the phonetics of Greek /Latin /English. 

The innovation on the top of this by the indian schools is to add the ' regional language pronunciation flavor (  देव भाषा  treated  and taught as  देश  भाषा  / विदेश  भाषा ) '. 

 This makes Samksrutham of today carry a deviation from the PRIMARY SHIKSHA and PRATISHAKHYA Standards of ' Cultured pronunciation'. i.e. the Patanjali Commitment for teaching Samskrutham has been given a good let go. The Patanajli tradition commitment is :  ' उपदेशाः  शुद्धाः  पठ्यन्ते ' - The voice tradition of teaching will be in compliance with the Shikshaa Shastra standard.  

More may be explained by scholars.

Regards

BVK Sastry