who is not a śūdra?
Jsr Prasad
2. Not any kind of varṇa mentioned in the mantra.
3. When varṇa is considered elsewhere, it has been merely based on the guṇa-karma division as said in gītā 4.13. Guṇa refers to the sāṅkhya concept of triguṇa. Another instance of characteristics of triguṇa is found in gītā at 17.8-10.
4. The dialog between bhṛgu and bharadvāja in the śāntiparva is quite interesting. bhṛgu says - न विशेषोस्ति वर्णानां सर्वं ब्राह्ममिदं जगत् । ब्रह्मणा पूर्वसृष्टं हि कर्मणा वर्णतां गतम् ।। (188.10). Following verses from 'कामभोगप्रियास्तीक्ष्णाः; till 'द्विजाः शूद्रतां गताः' (188.11-18) are really an eye opener.
5. Who is a brāhmaṇa?
But, who is not entitled to be a brāhmaṇa?
nīlakaṇṭha, the able commentator opines - 'सद्गुणवन्तं वैश्यत्वादयः स्वयमायान्तीति गुणकृत एव वर्णविभागः कृतः न जातिकृतः इति भावः ।'
Prof. Paturi Ji
On Thursday, August 27, 2015 at 11:02:19 AM UTC+5:30, nagarajpaturi wrote:The mantraब्राह्मणोऽस्य मुखमासीद्बाहू राजन्यः कृतः |
ऊरू तदस्य यद्वैश्यः पद्भ्याँ शूद्रो अजायत ||११||
which is part of Purusha sukta, is interpreted by some as a 'hierarchical' description of the four Varnas.I always fail to understand how they can manage to see hierarchy in this description.I completely agree with each and every point of yours. Even in the commentaries by Uvaṭa and Mahīdhara on the corresponding verse in my śākhā (VSYM), there is no hierarchy implied. I have attached a PDF with the two commentaries (NSP publication, 1929).I would also like to share a related extract from the commentary by Svāmī Rāmabhadrācārya on BG 18.41 (brāhmaṇakṣatriyaviśāṃ ...):
Hnbhat B.R.
The simple question who made the वर्ण-s as in the present society to be applied by birth and whence the derogatory words ब्रह्मबन्धु and ब्राह्मणब्रुवः came into prevalence? There is no equivalent words क्षत्रियब्रुव or क्षत्रबन्धु. But I have seen क्षत्रियापुत्र used.
What about वर्णसंकर mentioned in Gita as
अधर्माभिभवात्कृष्ण प्रदुष्यन्ति कुलस्त्रियः ।
स्त्रीषु दुष्टासु वार्ष्णेय जायते वर्णसंकरः ॥१-४१॥
and also detailed by Manu as संकरजाति in the society.
By birth every one becomes जन्तु and nothing more to name any वर्ण either by गुण or कर्म as शूद्र or ब्राह्मण as according to Vedanta सर्वं खल्विदं ब्रह्म everything in this world is ब्रह्म nothing particular for human being, all the animate or inanimate s are related to ब्रह्म. So also the त्रैगण्य is the nature of every creation and not particular to human beings. Krishna himself ordered the society with गुणकर्मबिभाग. After Krishna created, who governed this standard to every one born as human beings? Only Guna is explicit when a child grows and Sankhya Guna is common with animate and inanimate creation in this world. Who then divides the कर्म, when a child grows up belonging to a specific वर्ण and assigns the कर्म? The षोडशसंस्कार like "अध्ययनमध्यापनं यज्ञो याजनं दानं प्रतिग्रहणं दायाद्यं सिलोञ्छः । (आप. धर्मसू.2.20.4)
1.1.19 वसन्ते ब्राह्मणमुपनयीत, ग्रीष्मे राजन्यं, शरदि वैश्यं, गर्भाष्टमेषु ब्राह्मणं, गर्भैकादशेषु राजन्यं, गर्भाद्वादशेषु वैश्यम्।।
इति आपस्तम्बः। will be meaningless, as before eight years, the गुण-s could not be decided and thereby ब्राह्मण as per guna-s, could not be fixed before the year of Eight at least and the later स्वधर्म also meaningless without any standard applicable for the classification in the Society at the time of आपस्तम्ब.
In my opinion, all the quotations cited are context sensual and I agree with this old statement in Mahabharata after reading many discussions on this topic in this and many other pages:
वेदाः विभिन्नाः स्मृतयो विभिन्ना नैको मुनिर्यस्य वचः(मतं) प्रमाणम्!
धर्मस्य तत्वं निहितं गुहायां महाजनो येन गताः स पन्थाः!!
sunil bhattacharjya
महाजनो येन गताः स पन्थाः. Yes this is important.
After the Varna system came into being (albeit by mutual consent) in the Treta yuga, as the Ramayana says, it is obvious that the "' Birds of the same feather flock together" must have taken place and the shudra groups/societies as well as the vaishya groups/societies started forming, as separate from the other two varnas.
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Ashok Aklujkar
a.a.
> On Aug 30, 2015, at 10:42 PM, sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >… Lord Buddha … showed that birth of a person in a particular family / varna was not just accidental. It has to do with one's past karma. Lord Buddha did not allow an untouchable girl to marry Ananda saying the girl in her past birth refused to marry Ananda as she was a princess and was proud of her higher staus. Because of that Karma she took birth in a lower status and Ananda would not be able to marry her.<
sunil bhattacharjya
<http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/btg/btg77.htm>
