Term महादशा

[Mārcis Gasūns]

Namaste,

 Why is महादशा called so and the only dictionary that has the word is MW, with "f. the influence of a predominant planet MW" if there are only 9 planets?

M.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

It is to contrast with the antardas'a and pratyantardas'a.

For example in Vims'ottari Das'a system Each Das'a of a planet is subdivided into sub-das'as and sub-sub-das'as. The das'a of which these sub and sub-sub das'as are part is called the mahaa das'aa or the major das'a.

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

Prof. Paturiji told about the Mahadasha. I only wish to add that of the nine grahas, seven are planets, Rahu is the the chaayaa-garaha or the planetary shadows, which cover the Sun and the Moon on the occasions of the solar ans lunar eclipses. Rahu in Vedas is called Svarbhanu (Rig Veda - 5.3.8. That is why in the Mahabharata Ketu indicates comet. Prof. Narahari Achar has done some work on this.

Regards,

Sunil KB

--

[Nagaraj Paturi]

In fact, planet is not a good translation of graha.

'Rationalists' and many other such antagonists of ancient knowledge keep questioning this : Sun which you list as a graha is not a planet and Earth which is a planet is not listed among your grahas, they say.

Graha means a anastronomical body from which the Earth receives the 'effects'.

Since the Earth itself is the receiver , it is not listed among the grahas.

Since the Earth receives 'effects' from the Sun, it is included among the grahas.  

Unlike in the case of modern idea of 'planet', self-luminous and non-self-luminous is not the criteria for identifying a body as graha.

Rahu and Kethu being chaaya grahas or being associated with eclipses is different from Rahu and Ketu being certain positions of moon's orbits. It is in the later sense that they are described as entering, existing in or exiting a certain sign of zodiac.

[Dev Bhattacharyya]

Hello M

महादशा is based on two root words - maha or mahat and dasha. Maha is 'the great', 'the vast'. The dasha is 'circumstances', 'state', 'a time-period'. It is a latter day word which literally could have meant a 'great time-period' or 'great steady state'. It has nothing to do with 9 grahas per-se as dasha-progressions could both be planetary or sign based.  

Best

Dev

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:46 AM, Dev Bhattacharyya <dev.bhat...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello M

महादशा is based on two root words - maha or mahat and dasha. Maha is 'the great', 'the vast'. The dasha is 'circumstances', 'state', 'a time-period'. It is a latter day word which literally could have meant a 'great time-period' or 'great steady state'. It has nothing to do with 9 grahas per-se as dasha-progressions could both be planetary or sign based.  

Best

The terms mahadasa and dasa are technical words used in Indian Astrology and not any grammatical meaning that derivation gives::

"The Sanskrit term "Dasha" in Hindu astrology is used to indicate planetary periods. The planetary periods indicate when the good or bad effects are produced according to their placement by sign (Rasi), house (Bhava), combinations (Yogas or Raja Yogas) or aspects (Drishti). The Dasha Paddhati (system) of Directional Astrology is unique to the Hindus; it is found nowhere else."

For more details:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasha_(astrology)

and 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasha_(astrology)#The_Mahadashas

Best

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

What you are saying is correct from the heliocentric view. In geocentric viww the Sun is a planet.

As regards the Ketu it is a comet. Probably the Hailey's comet. Svarbahnu, when causes eclipse of the Moon, it is Rahu and otherwise it is Ketu. That is my understanding from the Mahabharata.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[Nagaraj Paturi]

We have to account for what is meant by Rahu or Ketu being in a particular sign of Zodiac, say in a lagna kundali or Raas'i chakra, why they are always in the mutually opposite positions etc.

[Mārcis Gasūns]

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 07:41:39 UTC+3, Dev Bhattacharyya wrote:

महादशा is based on two root words - maha or mahat and dasha. Maha is 'the great', 'the vast'. The dasha is 'circumstances', 'state', 'a time-period'. It is a latter day word which literally could have meant a 'great time-period' or 'great steady state'. It has nothing to do with 9 grahas per-se as dasha-progressions could both be planetary or sign based.  

Thanks, so the sense 'a time-period' makes sense, that is what a student asked and I was not sure, so it has nothing to do with dasha "ten", but it is from the dhatu "diś"?

β) Planet , der den Menschen magisch ergreift. Man zählt deren fünf (Mars , Mercur , Jupiter , Venus und Saturn) , sieben (die vorigen nebst Râhu und Ketu) oder neun (die vorigen nebst Sonne und Mond). Bisweilen wird auch der Polarstern dazu gerechnet. 

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/PWScan/2014/web/webtc/indexcaller.php Böhtlingk Sanskrit-Wörterbuch in kürzerer Fassung

 

[sadasivamurty rani]

The word ग्रह: in ancient Indian Astronomical and Astrological texts was not used in the sense of PLANET. 

In the Kosha texts like Halayudhakosa and also in ancient texts on Astronomy the etymological meaning of the word ग्रह: was interpreted in the following ways:  

1. गृह्णाति गतिविशॆषानिति ग्रह: / (Astronomical point of view) that which takes different movements is ग्रह:|

2. यद्वा गृह्णाति फलदातृत्वेन जीवानिति ग्रह:। (Astrological Point of view) that which is capable of bestowing different results of the due deeds of Beings by taking them into its fold) is ग्रह:|

Except Varahamihira all other ancient Astronomers in the texts like Surya Siddhanta and Siddhanta Siromani they specified the number of ग्रह-s as NINE only and not merely SEVEN. 

सूर्यादयो नव।

सूर्यश्चन्द्रो मङ्गलश्च बुधश्चापि बृहस्पति:।

शुक्र: शनैश्चरो राहु: केतुश्चेति नव ग्रहा:॥ (हलायुधकोशे)

सूर्यश्शशी कुजस्सौम्यो गुरुस्शुक्रश्शनिस्तम:।

केतुर्नवग्रहा: प्रॊक्ता ज्यौतिश्शास्त्रविशारदै:॥ (जातकचन्द्रिका) 

सूर्येन्दू मण्डलाख्यातौ कुजज्ञेज्यसितासिता:।

ताराग्रहा: स्मृता: पञ्च छायाखेटौ तमोध्वजौ॥ - (जातकचन्द्रिका)

Of these Nine Grahas: Surya and Chandra are Mandala Grahas. 

The five Grahas - Kuja, Budha, Guru, Shukra and Sani are Tara Grahas. 

Rahu and Ketu are ChAaya grahas.

The grahatva of Rahu and Ketu is astronomically, astrologically and also through epic support is proved in the following manner. 

राहोर्ग्रहत्वं श्रुति-स्मृतिप्रमणसिद्धम्।

"स्वर्भानुर्ह वा आसुरि: सूर्यन्तमसा विव्याधेति।" .. माध्यन्दिनी श्रुति:।

ग्रहस्वरूपा: कालस्य मूर्तयो भगणाश्रिता:।

शीघ्र - मन्द- उच्च - पाताख्या: ग्रहाणां गतिहेतव:।

                               -सूर्यसिद्धान्ते।

स्वध्रुवे कुमुदिनीपतिपानं राहुमाहुरिह केऽपि तमेवेति॥ - भास्कराचार्य:।

छिन्नोऽपि विष्णुचक्रेण सुधामयशिरस्तम:।

केशवस्य वरॆणासौ तथापि ग्रहतां गत:॥ - कश्यपसंहिता।

Vakra, Anuvakra, Kutila and Manda, Mandatara, Sama, Shigrahatara and Shighra -

are the eight fold movements of the NINE Grahas according to Astronomical Texts. 

The following verses support this kind of Movements of Rahu and Ketu. So these are undoubtedly Grahas only. They many not or need not be planets. 

वक्रानुवक्रा कुटिला मन्दा मन्दतरा समा।

तथा शीघ्रतरा शीघ्रा ग्रहाणामष्टधा गति:॥

..........

दक्षिणोत्तरतोऽप्येवं पातो राहु: स्वरंहसा।

विक्षिपत्यॆष विक्षेपं चन्द्रादीनामपक्रमात् ॥ इति राहुविषये।

उत्तराभिमुखं पातो विक्षिपत्यपरार्धग:।

ग्रह: प्रागुभगणार्धस्थो याम्यायामपकर्षति॥ - इति केतु विषये।

 Hence PLANET is less pervasive word when compared to a GRAHA. 

Regards, 

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2016 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Term महादशा

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[sadasivamurty rani]

The word ग्रह: in ancient Indian Astronomical and Astrological texts was not used exactly in the same sense of PLANET. There are some more functions observed in the  Graha-s and hence counted them NINE in number. 

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Term महादशा

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[hnbhat]

On 16 November 2016, at 14:51, Mārcis Gasūns <gas...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 07:41:39 UTC+3, Dev Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
>महादशा is based on two root words - maha or mahat and dasha. Maha is 'the great', 'the vast'. The dasha is 'circumstances', 'state', 'a time-period'. It is a latter day word which literally could have meant a 'great time-period' or 'great steady state'. It has nothing to do with 9 grahas per-se as dasha-progressions could both be planetary or sign based.  
>
>Thanks, so the sense 'a time-period' makes sense, that is what a student asked and I was not sure, so it has nothing to do with dasha "ten", but it is from the dhatu "diś"?
>

No. As per शब्दकल्पद्रुम it is derived from √danśa = to bite.

daśā, strī, (daśatīva . danśa + mūlavibhujādi-
tvāt kaḥ . japajabhadahadaśeti nirddeśāt aki-
tyapi nalopaḥ . yadvā, daśyate iti . guroścetyaṅ .
tataṣṭāp .)
= avasthā .

[Mārcis Gasūns]

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty, why thank you so much for this great writing on graha! 

Very interesting, detailed and now I know more about it than ever before.

What is the best glossary of jyotish terms? What reading would you recommend? 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Technically as per astrological sources:

kalau narāṇāṁ yathoktāyuṣaḥ sūryyādyaṣṭagraha-

bhogyāṣṭabhāgaviśeṣaḥ

[Mārcis Gasūns]

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 14:54:38 UTC+3, hnbhat wrote:

No. As per शब्दकल्पद्रुम it is derived from √danśa = to bite.

daśā, strī, (daśatīva . danśa + mūlavibhujādi-
tvāt kaḥ . japajabhadahadaśeti nirddeśāt aki-
tyapi nalopaḥ . yadvā, daśyate iti . guroścetyaṅ .
tataṣṭāp .)
= avasthā .

Oh, pardon my ignorance. So that is "big bite"? What would be the literal translation based on √daṃś ?

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Yes. If it would mean a big bite of bread in English.

As per Shabdakalpadruma cited, as if it is bitten, daśatīva.-- 

Literally mahā+daśā may be translated as great bite.

Conventionallly, it denotes the great period of time from birth occupied by the graha. in the zodaic divisions.

mahā+daśā, antar+daśā,  and daśā are all  portions of life span occupied the graha-s.

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

Kindly permit me to rewrite the following:

As regards the Ketu it is a comet. Probably the Hailey's comet. Svarbahnu, when causes eclipse of the Moon, it is Rahu and otherwise it is Ketu. That is my understanding from the Mahabharata.

The rewritten form is as follows:

As regards the Ketu, it is a comet. Probably the Hailey's comet. Svarbahnu, when causes eclipse of the Moon, it is Rahu and when it causes the solar eclipse it is still Rahu (but called as ketu in astrology).  That is my understanding from the Mahabharata. Further, In the Navagraha-stotram,  the Rahu is born from the womb of Chaya or shadow, whereas Ketu is not, as Ketu's description is more like a comet.

Regards,

Sunil KB.

[Mārcis Gasūns]

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 16:29:29 UTC+3, hnbhat wrote:

Yes. If it would mean a big bite of bread in English.

As per Shabdakalpadruma cited, as if it is bitten, daśatīva.-- 

Literally mahā+daśā may be translated as great bite.

Conventionallly, it denotes the great period of time from birth occupied by the graha. in the zodaic divisions.

mahā+daśā, antar+daśā,  and daśā are all  portions of life span occupied the graha-s.

Thanks a lot, so there are 3 portions of life or there are plenty more? 

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

 Why is महादशा called so ....

                                              --- Vidvan  Marcis Gasuns

There are nine ग्रहाः in ज्योतिषम् ।

ग्रह = उपादाने (क्र्यादिः - गृह्णाति ) - ’ विभाषा ग्रहः ’  पा 3-1-143 , कर्तरि वा णः - --

 ग्राहः - ग्रहः । व्यवस्थितविभाषया जलचरे ( crocodile) ग्राहः - ज्योतिषि ( star or Sun etc) ग्रहः ।

दशा means ' a period of time ' . 

महती च असौ दशा च महादशा - ’ आन्महतः समानधिकरणजातीययोः ’ पा  6-3-45 , इति महत् शब्दस्य आत्त्वम् ।

महादशा - अन्तर्दशा - विदशा - सूक्ष्मदशा - प्राणदशा - these are the five दशs  calculated in जातकस्कन्ध । 

ज्योतिषम्  (also called गणितम् due to too much of mathematics) is divided into three स्कन्धाः - -- मुहूर्तस्कन्धः - जातकस्कन्धः - सिद्धान्तस्कन्धः ।

महादशा is mostly used in जातकस्कन्ध , which is useful in predicting the fate of the native ( horoscopee) taking the planetary line up ( it is nothing but a reflection of कर्म) and the दशा ।

It is 120 years ( विंशोत्तरी) that is the total sum of the nine महादशs of the nine planets . 

So after completing half of the above period , i e 60 years , people do षष्टिपूर्ति - it is a काम्यकर्म - to live happily for the rest of the half .

Here is a panorama of the planets and their महादशs --

1. रविः -- 6 years

2. चन्द्रः -- 10

3. कुजः -- 7

4. राहुः - 18

5.गुरुः -- 16

6. शनिः -- 19

7.बुधः -- 17

8. केतुः -- 7

9. शुक्रः -- 20

I have given the above list  in the same order as it is calculated / followed in जातकस्कन्ध ।

Each महादशा is divided into nine अन्तर्दशs - and each अन्तर्दशा is divided into nine विदशs ( सूक्ष्मदशा and प्राणदशा are not being calculated nowadays) .

Just follow the calculation --

रव्यन्तर्दशा in रविमहादशा ( also called स्वान्तर्दशा ) -- 6x6 = 36  -- 3 months and 18 days .

In the above number the last one is multiplied  by 3 and they are days -- 6x3=18 days . The earlier number / s denote months .

गुरुमहादशायां गुर्वन्तर्दशा -- 16x16 = 256 ( 25-6x3 ) -- 2 years 1month 18 days .

In रविमहादशा there will be the nine अन्तर्दशs in the same order as above --

रवि - चन्द्र - कुज - राहु - गुरु - शनि - बुध - केतु - शुक्र

In each अन्तर्दशा again there will be the विदशs in the same order --

शनिमहादशायां शन्यन्तर्दशायां शनिविदशा -- श / श / श ,  श / श / बु ,  श / श / के ....

In पञ्चाङ्गम् ( Almanac / Calendar ) generally a chart of the दशs - down to विदशs is provided as a ready reckoner .

If a native wants to know as to what kind of fate is in store during शुक्रमहादशा , the ज्यौतिषिक ( ज्योतिष्क is an अपशब्द - ’ इसुसुक्तान्तात् कः ’ पा does not apply) would give an overall picture of the same.

If one wants for a period of a few years or so , i e अन्तर्दशा , or a few months , i e विदशा , then the Astrologer would calculate accordingly .

Just try to understand these points and feel free , if any doubts / questions .

I may offer you some bonus info.

धन्यो’स्मि

 

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

--

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

Permit me to add that there is another Dasha system called Ashtottari, which does not count Ketu. The full span is 108 years. In fact, there are several other dasha systems also, which seem to have come to disuse in course of time, but a very careful astrologer may still use these.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

I just looked back at one of my replies and there was slip. I am very sorry for that. Kindly permit me to correct that. Svarabhanu's (i.e., Rahu's) mother was Singhika and nit Chaya. Chaya was the mother of Shani.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[sadasivamurty rani]

Prof. Sunil Ji and other learned members, 

Pranams to all. 

With regard to the distinction between RAHU and KETU I would like to place here the Pauranic and Astronomical versions with in my limits of comprehension having felt the need of such distinction. 

From various Pauranic accounts available in tradition about RAHU and KETU, these two are not two separate demons. Only one demon cut into two parts by Vishnu in the Mohini incarnation. Out of the two parts the upper part is called RAHU and the Lower part is called KETU. (अमृतं योऽपिबद्दैत्यस्तं वैकुण्ठो द्विधाऽच्छिनत् । राहुरुत्तरकायोऽस्य पूर्वकायोऽभवद्ध्वज:॥) Here interestingly the word DHVAJA is used synonymously used with KETU.

1.  Because of drinking Amrta by the time he was cut the demon mysteriously starting existing in two forms. As the same demon is made into two and started existing in two forms the same mother Simhika could be the mother of both. Hence there is no separate mother mentioned to KETU. This as far as the pauranic episode is considered. 

2. As far as the ancient Indian astronomical texts are concerned RAHU and KETU are the Northern and Southern Lunar Nodes (Ascending and Descending Nodes of the Moon). To say more clearly Rahu is the Northern or Ascending Node and Ketu is the Descending Node.) Depending on the position of the Sun and the Moon at the time of Eclipse some times by the Ascending Node and some times by the Descending nodes these two Grahas (Sun or Moon) can be over shadowed. When either of them is over shadowed by the Ascending Node we call it Rahu grasta grahana and when they are over shadowed by the Descending Node we call it Ketu grasta Grahana. So It need not always be Rahu grahasta grahana or Ketu grasta grahana exclusively. 

 The popular astronomical scholars in this group like  Prof. Rama subrahmanyam Garu, IIT, Mumbai can enlighten with more information with regard to the Rahu and Ketu eclipses. 

3. The comet in Sanskrit is often called DHUMAKETU and not merely KETU. If in any sloka it is found as KETU it could be for the sake of metrical brevity and not confirmedly to identify the comet with KETU GRAHA. 

As far as the Indian Astronomy is concerned KETU GRAHA is only one. But the number of comets beyond three crores: To say exactly they are 3,07,03,221 comets according to the following quote from an ancient text Kriyasara Tantra. 

बाणस्थधूमकेतूनां मण्डलस्याष्टमान्तरे।

त्रिकोटि सप्तलक्ष त्रि सह्स्र द्विशतोपरि ॥

एकविंशतिसङ्ख्याका: वर्तन्ते धूमकेतव:॥ - A Citation from Kriyasara Tantra 

Hence KETU GRAHA is different from the comet DHUMA KETU. 

Warm Regards,  

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com>
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Term महादशा

Dear friends,

I just looked back at one of my replies and there was slip. I am very sorry for that. Kindly permit me to correct that. Svarabhanu's (i.e., Rahu's) mother was Singhika and nit Chaya. Chaya was the mother of Shani.

Regards,

Sunil KB

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:32 PM, sunil bhattacharjya 

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:21 PM, sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

What you are saying is correct from the heliocentric view. In geocentric viww the Sun is a planet.

As regards the Ketu it is a comet. Probably the Hailey's comet. Svarbahnu, when causes eclipse of the Moon, it is Rahu and otherwise it is Ketu. That is my understanding from the Mahabharata.

Regards,

Sunil KB

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:33 AM, sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

Prof. Paturiji told about the Mahadasha. I only wish to add that of the nine grahas, seven are planets, Rahu is the the chaayaa-garaha or the planetary shadows, which cover the Sun and the Moon on the occasions of the solar ans lunar eclipses. Rahu in Vedas is called Svarbhanu (Rig Veda - 5.3.8. That is why in the Mahabharata Ketu indicates comet. Prof. Narahari Achar has done some work on this.

Regards,

Sunil KB

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I already said in one of my posts in this thread that Rahu and Ketu are the positions of the moon's orbit. But I said, chaayaagrahas issue is different, meaning that this concept may not be connected to the explanation of eclipses.

Poojya Prof. Rani's words below provide that connection too:

As far as the ancient Indian astronomical texts are concerned RAHU and KETU are the Northern and Southern Lunar Nodes (Ascending and Descending Nodes of the Moon). To say more clearly Rahu is the Northern or Ascending Node and Ketu is the Descending Node.) Depending on the position of the Sun and the Moon at the time of Eclipse some times by the Ascending Node and some times by the Descending nodes these two Grahas (Sun or Moon) can be over shadowed. When either of them is over shadowed by the Ascending Node we call it Rahu grasta grahana and when they are over shadowed by the Descending Node we call it Ketu grasta Grahana. So It need not always be Rahu grahasta grahana or Ketu grasta grahana exclusively. (Highlighting mine)

The myth of only one demon cut into two parts also matches well with the fixed relative positions of the two which give the impression of the two making parts of the same entity.

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murthyji and Prof. Nagaraja Paturiji,

I remember seeing a paper by Prof. Narahari Acharji, quite sometime ago, where he quoted Varahamihira and identified Ketu as Comet. Probably he found the Comet Hailey appearing in 3067 BCE, which is his date of the Mahabharata war and that also shows the possiblity of this comet appearing in 3139 BCE, which is the date of the Mahabharata war, found by me.

Prof. Achar is a member of this group and I hope he will respond and tell us about his finding.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[rniyengar]

Dear Prof. Sadashivamurty Garu,

You write:

As far as the ancient Indian astronomical texts are concerned RAHU and KETU are the Northern and Southern Lunar Nodes (Ascending and Descending Nodes of the Moon). To say more clearly Rahu is the Northern or Ascending Node and Ketu is the Descending Node.

I sincerely request you to quote the original Sanskrit verses which say so from the astronomical texts. I seem to have missed such ancient siddhantic astronomy texts.

Regards

RN Iyengar

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

After going through various sources and discussions on Lunar nodes, Rahu and Ketu the following is what I found:

1. Almost all western astrologer-writers acknowledge Ksheera saagara mathana and the splitting of the body of a demon-snake into two : head and tail , Rahu and Ketu as the myhification of the astrological concept of lunar nodes only. They see this as the Indian version of the lunar nodes being viewed as the head and tail of a dragon. All of them like the words Rahu and Ketu and some of them use the term Rahu Ketu Axis to refer to the line joining the two lunar nodes.

2. None of these sources quotes a book of ancient Indian astrology /astronomy while discussing this.

3. Those who compare Hellenistic and Indian Astrology such as this author , say, " Indian astrology places far more importance on the lunar nodes than does Hellenistic, almost giving them the status of planets."

4. Earliest occurrence of the Ksheera saagara mathana narrative may give us a clue to the time of  borrowing or indigenous origin of this important notion of Indian astrology.

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[sadasivamurty rani]

Respected Prof. RN Iyengar Garu,

Namaskarams.

As I was busy during the last two days I could not immediately respond to your mail. 

Here are a few lines from Suryasiddhanta (Spashtadhikara Slokas: 6 and 7) where there is reference to the subject in discussion.

राहुविषये, केतु विषये च - 

दक्षिणोत्तरतोऽप्येवं पातो राहु: स्वरंहसा।

विक्षिपत्यॆष विक्षेपं चन्द्रादीनामपक्रमात् ॥ 

उत्तराभिमुखं पातो विक्षिपत्यपरार्धग:।

ग्रह: प्रागुभगणार्धस्थो याम्यायामपकर्षति॥ - 

पात: = तत्तद्ग्रहगोलीयक्रान्तिमण्डलविमण्डलयो: प्रथम: सम्पात:, एष: राहु: = अयं राहुसंज्ञक:, एवं उच्चवदेव (यथोच्चं पूर्वापरं ग्रहान्विक्षिपति तथैव) स्वरंहसा = स्ववेगवशात्, अपक्रमात् = स्थानीयक्रान्त्यन्तात्, विक्षेपं = तत्तद्ग्रहोक्तविक्षेपपर्यन्तं, दक्षिणोत्तरत: = दक्षिणत: उत्तरतो वा चन्द्रादीनां (सूर्यस्य विमण्दालभावाच्चन्द्रप्रमुखानामेव) बिम्बानि, विक्षिपति = चालयति। एतदुक्तं भवति। स्वस्वगोले ग्रहभ्रमणवृत्तस्य (विमण्डलस्य) क्रान्तिवृत्तस्य च य: प्रथम: सम्पात: स राहु:, द्वितीय: सम्पात: केतुरिति प्रथमसम्पातरूपराहुरेव चन्द्रादिबिम्बानि यथा सम्भवं दक्षिणोत्तरं विक्षिपतीति।

अथ कदा ग्रहमुत्तरत: कदा च दक्षिणतो विक्षिपतीति आह - 

अपरार्धत: -ग्रहस्थानात् षड्भाधिकान्तरित: (अपरषड्राशिगत:), पात: - प्रथमसम्पात: - राहु:, तं ग्रहं, उत्तराभिमुखं - स्थानीयक्रान्त्यन्तादुत्तराभिमुखं विक्षेपतुल्यं विक्षिपति = चालयति। प्राग्भगणार्धस्थ: - ग्रहस्थानात् प्रथमराशिषट्के विद्यमान: पात: तं ग्रहं, याम्यायां = स्थानीयक्रान्त्यन्ताद् दक्षिणाभिमुखं विक्षेपं यावद्, अपकर्षति = चालयति॥

अत्र युक्ति:

चन्द्रादि ग्रहाणां बिम्बानि क्रान्ति वृत्तादन्यत्र स्वस्वविमण्दले प्रचलन्ति। कान्तिविमण्डलयो: प्रथमयोगबिन्दु: राहु:। ग्रहबिम्बगतं कदम्बप्रोतवृत्तं क्रान्तिवृत्ते यत्र लगति तद्गहस्थानं (क्रान्त्यन्त्यबिन्दु:) तस्माद् ग्रहबिम्बपर्यन्तं कदम्बप्रोतवृत्ते विक्षेप: (शर:), इति सर्वं गोलविदामतिरोहितमेव।

अथ यदा गणितागतो ग्रहो राहुश्च समौ भवत: तदानीं ग्रहबिम्बमपि पातस्थाने क्रान्तिवृत्ते तिष्ठति। तेन तदानीं विक्षेपाभाव:। यदा ग्रहापेक्षया राहुरून: परं राशिषट्काभ्यन्तरित: भवति तदा क्रान्तिवृत्ताद्विमण्डलमुत्तरगतं विक्षेपतुल्यान्तरे भवति। अतस्तदा ग्रहबिम्बं क्रान्त्यन्तबिन्दोर्विक्षेपतुल्यमुत्तरतो भवति। यदा च राहुर्ग्रहापेक्षयाऽधिक: परं राशिषट्काभ्यन्तरे भवति, तदानीं क्रान्तिवृत्ताद्विमण्डलस्य विक्षेपतुल्यं दक्षिणतो गतत्वात् क्रान्त्यन्तबिन्दोर्ग्रहबिम्बं विक्षेपतुल्यं दक्षिणतो भवतीति युक्तियुक्तमेवोक्तमिति अलमति विस्तरेण॥

I came across similar instances in the texts like : Siddhanta Siromani of Bhaskara Acharya and others too. But I am in time pressure to attend my routine and so I could not trace out all those details. If we search in the Grahanadhikara of those texts we can easily trace out them. 

Hope the said context is useful in the ongoing pursuit. 

With warm regards sir,  

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: rniyengar <narayana...@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: ranisada...@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016 11:07 AM

[sadasivamurty rani]

Respected Prof. RN Iyengar Garu,

Namaskarams.

As I was busy during the last two days I could not immediately respond to your mail. 

Here are a few lines from Suryasiddhanta (Spashtadhikara Slokas: 6 and 7) where there is reference to the subject in discussion.

राहुविषये, केतु विषये च - 

दक्षिणोत्तरतोऽप्येवं पातो राहु: स्वरंहसा।

विक्षिपत्यॆष विक्षेपं चन्द्रादीनामपक्रमात् ॥ 

उत्तराभिमुखं पातो विक्षिपत्यपरार्धग:।

ग्रह: प्रागुभगणार्धस्थो याम्यायामपकर्षति॥ - 

पात: = तत्तद्ग्रहगोलीयक्रान्तिमण्डलविमण्डलयो: प्रथम: सम्पात:, एष: राहु: = अयं राहुसंज्ञक:, एवं उच्चवदेव (यथोच्चं पूर्वापरं ग्रहान्विक्षिपति तथैव) स्वरंहसा = स्ववेगवशात्, अपक्रमात् = स्थानीयक्रान्त्यन्तात्, विक्षेपं = तत्तद्ग्रहोक्तविक्षेपपर्यन्तं, दक्षिणोत्तरत: = दक्षिणत: उत्तरतो वा चन्द्रादीनां (सूर्यस्य विमण्दालभावाच्चन्द्रप्रमुखानामेव) बिम्बानि, विक्षिपति = चालयति। एतदुक्तं भवति। स्वस्वगोले ग्रहभ्रमणवृत्तस्य (विमण्डलस्य) क्रान्तिवृत्तस्य च य: प्रथम: सम्पात: स राहु:, द्वितीय: सम्पात: केतुरिति प्रथमसम्पातरूपराहुरेव चन्द्रादिबिम्बानि यथा सम्भवं दक्षिणोत्तरं विक्षिपतीति।

अथ कदा ग्रहमुत्तरत: कदा च दक्षिणतो विक्षिपतीति आह - 

अपरार्धत: -ग्रहस्थानात् षड्भाधिकान्तरित: (अपरषड्राशिगत:), पात: - प्रथमसम्पात: - राहु:, तं ग्रहं, उत्तराभिमुखं - स्थानीयक्रान्त्यन्तादुत्तराभिमुखं विक्षेपतुल्यं विक्षिपति = चालयति। प्राग्भगणार्धस्थ: - ग्रहस्थानात् प्रथमराशिषट्के विद्यमान: पात: तं ग्रहं, याम्यायां = स्थानीयक्रान्त्यन्ताद् दक्षिणाभिमुखं विक्षेपं यावद्, अपकर्षति = चालयति॥

अत्र युक्ति:

चन्द्रादि ग्रहाणां बिम्बानि क्रान्ति वृत्तादन्यत्र स्वस्वविमण्दले प्रचलन्ति। कान्तिविमण्डलयो: प्रथमयोगबिन्दु: राहु:। ग्रहबिम्बगतं कदम्बप्रोतवृत्तं क्रान्तिवृत्ते यत्र लगति तद्गहस्थानं (क्रान्त्यन्त्यबिन्दु:) तस्माद् ग्रहबिम्बपर्यन्तं कदम्बप्रोतवृत्ते विक्षेप: (शर:), इति सर्वं गोलविदामतिरोहितमेव।

अथ यदा गणितागतो ग्रहो राहुश्च समौ भवत: तदानीं ग्रहबिम्बमपि पातस्थाने क्रान्तिवृत्ते तिष्ठति। तेन तदानीं विक्षेपाभाव:। यदा ग्रहापेक्षया राहुरून: परं राशिषट्काभ्यन्तरित: भवति तदा क्रान्तिवृत्ताद्विमण्डलमुत्तरगतं विक्षेपतुल्यान्तरे भवति। अतस्तदा ग्रहबिम्बं क्रान्त्यन्तबिन्दोर्विक्षेपतुल्यमुत्तरतो भवति। यदा च राहुर्ग्रहापेक्षयाऽधिक: परं राशिषट्काभ्यन्तरे भवति, तदानीं क्रान्तिवृत्ताद्विमण्डलस्य विक्षेपतुल्यं दक्षिणतो गतत्वात् क्रान्त्यन्तबिन्दोर्ग्रहबिम्बं विक्षेपतुल्यं दक्षिणतो भवतीति युक्तियुक्तमेवोक्तमिति अलमति विस्तरेण॥

I came across similar instances in the texts like : Siddhanta Siromani of Bhaskara Acharya and others too. But I am in time pressure to attend my routine and so I could not trace out all those details. If we search in the Grahanadhikara of those texts we can easily trace out them. 

Hope the said context is useful in the ongoing pursuit. 

With warm regards sir,  

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: rniyengar <narayana...@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: ranisada...@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016 11:07 AM

[rniyengar]

Dear Prof.Sadashivamurthy ji,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I like to politely point out that the 'Ketu' notation is not mentioned in the original text of SS. The commentary you have presented can not be an evidence of ancient use of Ketu as the descending node. I looked into several other siddhantic astronomy texts, all of them use the word ' paata" for the nodes. Kuppanna Shastri and KV Sarma are scholars who preserved and continued the legacy of traditional mathematical astronomy in our times. I found that they categorically deny that 'ketu' means 'descending node' in Hindu Astronomy. Please see the last para on p 68 and the first para of p. 69 attached herewith from their Panchasiddhaantika. My conclusion is that over the last few centuries (300-400 yrs) popular use influenced by story tellers and astrologers has attached such a meaning to the word Ketu, which always meant a visible object like a -flag, -staff, -tail -tuft which realistically matches with the visible object 'comet' and not the 'lunar node' which is just an imaginary point in space.  It would be an interesting research topic for Ph.D students of Indology to investigate when, why and how such a meaning came into vogue.

best regards

RN Iyengar

[sadasivamurty rani]

Dear Prof. RN Iyengar mahodaya!

Namaskarams.

As far as your earlier querying mail is concerned there is a question about the textual reference to both Rahu and Ketu. 

To Say in your words Sir!

"I sincerely request you to quote the original Sanskrit verses which say so from the astronomical texts. I seem to have missed such ancient siddhantic astronomy texts."

I quoted these two slokas : From the Spashtadhikara of Surya Siddhanta: 

दक्षिणोत्तरतोऽप्येवं पातो राहु: स्वरंहसा।

विक्षिपत्यॆष विक्षेपं चन्द्रादीनामपक्रमात् ॥ 

उत्तराभिमुखं पातो विक्षिपत्यपरार्धग:।

ग्रह: प्रागुभगणार्धस्थो याम्यायामपकर्षति॥ 

Here my humble submission is : 

1. These two slokas are not the part of the commentary. 

2. Your question covers both  the names : Rahu and Ketu if my comprehension of your querying mail goes well. I could succeed, I feel, at least in referring to RAHU as PATA and not as a mythological character. 

3. Here I again quote your words from your latest mail sir!

"My conclusion is that over the last few centuries (300-400 yrs) popular use influenced by story tellers and astrologers has attached such a meaning to the word Ketu, which always meant a visible object like a -flag, -staff, -tail -tuft which realistically matches with the visible object 'comet' and not the 'lunar node' which is just an imaginary point in space."

If a conclusion has been drawn by your noble self sir! my future answer will be mere silence only.  If it is a pause for further hunt for any ancient reference for the word KETU I am not tired to join with you sir in such a search. 

Only inconvenience with me is I am always in dearth of sufficient time to join with you all in very interesting discussions. I have had many beginnings in most of the ongoing discussions but without further extensions often. It is because of my being kidnapped by my TIME most of the times. 

Here I would like to add one more thing though it is out of context. 

I have been in repeated search for the text of NARADA SAMHITA from ORI of SV University. On the very next day to our conversation about NARADA SAMHITA I met Prof. Venkata Ramana Reddy the then Director of ORI. He promised me to get it for me on your behalf. He remembers you very well too.  But on the very next day he has been appointed as the Director of National Manuscripts Mission, New Delhi and left to that place. 

Ever since I had been to ORI several times to get the text for you. But those people so busy not spare even a little time to search for that text. After a few weeks they openly denied its availability. 

I feel shy for not keeping up my word to you.  

 

Warm regards, 

Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murty

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From: rniyengar <narayana...@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2016 9:12 PM

[Nagaraj Paturi]

In 

The Cosmology of the Bhagavata Purana: Mysteries of the Sacred Universe

By Richard L. Thompson,

here

The author argues that the Ketu as the headless part of the demon Rahu decapitated by Vishnu is parallel to the Dragon myths in the western tradition as St George's beheading of Dragon and angel Shamhursh beheading the eclipse dragon. 

Sharing snapshots from the book. Please make note of the dates of the pictures. 

" My conclusion is that over the last few centuries (300-400 yrs) popular use influenced by story tellers and astrologers has attached such a meaning to the word Ketu, which always meant a visible object like a -flag, -staff, -tail -tuft which realistically matches with the visible object 'comet' and not the 'lunar node' which is just an imaginary point in space. "

Whatever is the earliest occurrence of the narrative of Rahu/Svarbhanu getting beheaded is being seen as the time of myth-form being given to the astronomical understanding.  

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