A verse in the Gita

[Ravi Khangai]

Respected Scholars,
Namskaram
Kindly tell me the ch and verse no in the Gita where lord says that it
was I who crated four fold division.
Thanking in advance

--
"My heart is so full of love for God, that there is no space left for the
hatred of Satan"- Rabia, 8th century Sufi.

-Dr. Ravi Khangai, Assistant Professor, P.G.T.D. History, RTM Nagpur
University, Nagpur, Maharashtra, India-440033

Adjunct Faculty

Hindu University of America
5200 Vineland Road, Suite 120, Orlando, FL 32811, USA.

Mo- 918446000912, 919665575896

[Nityanand Misra]

चातुर्वर्ण्यं मया सृष्टं गुणकर्मविभागशः।
तस्य कर्तारमपि मां विद्ध्यकर्तारमव्ययम्॥ 4.13 ॥

[Nityanand Misra]

On Monday, 21 November 2016 20:28:44 UTC+5:30, ravikhangai wrote:

Respected Scholars,
Namskaram
Kindly tell me the ch and verse no in the Gita where lord says that it
was I who crated four fold division.
Thanking in advance

Do note that the verse talks of creation of चातुर्वर्ण्य (the four varna-s) in accordance with a four-fold division/separation of गुण-s and कर्म-s, and not simply creation of a four-fold division. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Please think about the full context of the verse. Kartritva of Bhagavaan and akartritva of Bhagavaan is being described as simultaneous here.

"chaaturvarNya sriShTi is by  Bhagavaan" is not the taatparya (intended ultimate meaning) here. Simultaneity of kartritva and akarteritva of Bhagavaan is the taatparya here.

For such simultaneity of agency and lack of agency of Bhagavaan in actions that are believed to be or known to be His, chaaturvarNyasriShTi is being shown as an example here.

                                                      ----------@@@-------- 

Taking "chaaturvarNya sriShTi is by  Bhagavaan" out of this context, it in fact means that chaaturvarNya sriShTi is not by any other agency such as a human individual or a human group or a human community or a human social organization or a human text or any thing like that.

(Take the analogy of nationalization of property in proletariat dictatorship: declaring that all property belongs to the government means declaring that no property belongs to any individual citizen or group of citizens of the nation.)

When Nyaaya Dars'ana declares that the system of 'this is the meaning of this word is 'Ees'vara-made' , what is actually intended is that the word-meaning relations are not created by any individual speaker of the language (but is the collective unconsciously formed convention of  the entire speaker group. )   

In the same way , when it is said here that Bhagavaan or Ees'vara is the one who created chaaturvarNyam, it actually means that any agency such as a human individual or a human group or a human community or a human social organization or a human text or any thing like that did not create chaaturvarNyam, it is the product of the collective unconsciously formed convention of  the entire social group. ) 

2016-11-21 22:24 GMT+05:30 Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com>:

चातुर्वर्ण्यं मया सृष्टं गुणकर्मविभागशः।
तस्य कर्तारमपि मां विद्ध्यकर्तारमव्ययम्॥ 4.13 ॥

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

In the Tretayuga it was felt by the people that the right persons should take up the right job, i.e., the physical and intellectual ability of the persons had to match the requirement of  the jobs and that is how the division of work among the four categories was collectiively adopted. This collective consciousness, is what probably Prof. Paturiji is referring to.

Sometimes we find that western scholars, who are ignorant of the basis of  the varna system, call the brahmins as the people doing the job of priests. The brahmins belonged to the ntellectaul class, who were after intellectual pursuit and their worldly needs were just enough to match the bare necessities. They were not after wealth and power. I read that the great sage Vashishtha had hard time persuading some brahmins to take up the job of priest, against their will.  Vashishta called upon them to make the sacrifice of thier intellectual pursuit (partially or wholly) for the sale of service to those who needed the service of priests for  performing the needed religious rites. That is how the priestly class came to be among the brahmins. I do not recollect the exact reference and I feel many of us may remember that.

Regards,

Sunil KB

 

[N.R.Joshi]

NOv 21 2016

 

Prof N. Paturi posted

 

" When Nyaaya Dars'ana declares that the system of 'this is the meaning of this word is 'Ees'vara-made' , what is actually intended is that the word-meaning relations are not created by any individual speaker of the language (but is the collective unconsciously formed convention of  the entire speaker group. ) ".

 

 I read in another book that Nyaaya darshana proposed that meaning of Sanskrit words are conventional. But who set the convention in the beginning? To set convention of meanings for one language, one needs another language before that and another before that. To come out of this dilemma, they finally proposed it is the Ishvara sansketa.

 

In my opinion Ishvara Sanketa is not collective job of speakers. One cannot cover the entire speaker group to hold conference and decide the meanings of words they are using.

 

There are other Nyaaya Darshana scholars on this list. I request them to throw light on the word-meaning relationship as proposed by Nyaaya Darshan. Thanks. N.R.Joshi

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

> One cannot cover the entire speaker group to hold conference and decide the meanings of words they are using.

That exactly is the point.

That is why, I used the words "the collective unconsciously formed convention of  the entire speaker group".  

This way of looking at word-meaning relation is not my invention. It has been part of modern general linguistics understanding for long. 

In general linguistics, 'arbitrary' relation between word and meaning is explained through the concept of 'convention'. 

What is interesting is that Hari informs us that such a view existed among the ancient Indian linguists too as one of many ways of theorizing the word-meaning relation.

अनागमश् च सॊ ऽभ्यासः समयः कैश् चिद् इष्यतॆ /

अनन्तरम् इदं कार्यम् अस्माद् इत्य् उपदर्शकः // वाक्य_२।११८ //

The second half of the verse, "अनन्तरम् इदं कार्यम् अस्माद् इत्य् उपदर्शकः " is in fact , an elaborated version of the technical term इतिकर्तव्यता only.

In any case, what I was trying to do was to show that the concepts such as ईश्वरकृतं in ancient Indian shastras are not incompatible with the rational understandings such as the collective unconsciously formed convention which are involved in the understanding of the formation /emergence/coming into existence of social systems in any society. If such a samanvaya is not realized , it leads to the imagination that Eeshvara, one fine morning , sat under a tree and went on connecting each word of a language with its meanings, or called all the people and said, "ye, you all shall live in future as per this social system and they started following it. "  To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning and there was that meaning of that word "  or God said, "let there be this social system and there was that social system" is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

  

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Punctuation mistake:

To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning" and there was that meaning of that word   or God said, "let there be this social system" and there was that social system is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

not

To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning and there was that meaning of that word "  or God said, "let there be this social system and there was that social system" is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

[Bijoy Misra]

The common convention that Prof. Paturi mentions could be hundreds of years in the making.  A theory can be made that

the neurological mappings of events and thoughts could be same to all human beings.  The expression and speech

could be different because of local conditions of geography, intonation and accent.  Once speech words are made they

can travel and be acquired by learning (copying or imitating).  Through travel they can transform.  Hence a theory of language

must deal with the peculiar words that could be in use untarnished in a region.  Names of the local fruits in old oral languages

could be good candidates of study.

Bhartrhari makes the important observation that all words denote "classes" (jAti), which is the concept behind the object/event.

Then one gets a specific application (visheSa) when using in a context in a sentence.  A jAti can have a myriad renderings!

Sri Aurobindo makes a whole theory of the Vedas by creating an alternate map of the Vedic words. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I was trying to keep the discussion focussed on the theme of the thread, creation of a social system by 'lord'.

Jaati, Dravya, Vyakti in Hari may need a separate thread.

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

If you remember at least a word or two from the Gita-text you are requesting you can search the Unicode text available at the sanskrit documents website http://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_giitaa/bhagvadnew.html?lang=sa

Ch 4 Verse 13
thanks

Shrikant Jamadagni
Bengaluru

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 21/11/16, Ravi Khangai <ravik...@gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} A verse in the Gita
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, 21 November, 2016, 8:28 PM

Respected Scholars,
Namskaram
Kindly tell me the ch and verse no in the Gita where lord
says that it
was I who crated four fold division.
Thanking in advance

--
"My heart is so full of love for God, that there is no space
left for the
hatred of Satan"- Rabia, 8th century Sufi.

-Dr. Ravi Khangai, Assistant Professor, P.G.T.D. History,
RTM Nagpur
University, Nagpur, Maharashtra, India-440033

Adjunct Faculty

Hindu University of America
5200 Vineland Road, Suite 120, Orlando, FL 32811, USA.

Mo- 918446000912, 919665575896

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

If you remember at least a word or two from the Gita

 from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

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[Sivasenani Nori]

Agency of ISvara in convention is extended to proper nouns like Dittha and kapittha as well. There, the will of God needs to be inferred as the basis for the apparent agency of the one who gives the names. A similar construct for the first act towards convention could be another explanation.

Regards

N. Siva Senani

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[N.R.Joshi]

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} A vers e in the Gita

Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 08:18:07 +0530

I was trying to keep the discussion focussed on the theme of the thread, creation of a social system by 'lord'.

 

Jaati, Dravya, Vyakti in Hari may need a separate thread.

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

The common convention that Prof. Paturi mentions could be hundreds of years in the making.  A theory can be made that

the neurological mappings of events and thoughts could be same to all human beings.  The expression and speech

could be different because of local conditions of geography, intonation and accent.  Once speech words are made they

can travel and be acquired by learning (copying or imitating).  Through travel they can transform.  Hence a theory of language

must deal with the peculiar words that could be in use untarnished in a region.  Names of the local fruits in old oral languages

could be good candidates of study.

Bhartrhari makes the important observation that all words denote "classes" (jAti), which is the concept behind the object/event.

Then one gets a specific application (visheSa) when using in a context in a sentence.  A jAti can have a myriad renderings!

Sri Aurobindo makes a whole theory of the Vedas by creating an alternate map of the Vedic words. 

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 9:17 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Punctuation mistake:

 

To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning" and there was that meaning of that word   or God said, "let there be this social system" and there was that social system is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

 

not

 

To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning and there was that meaning of that word "  or God said, "let there be this social system and there was that social system" is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 7:23 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One cannot cover the entire speaker group to hold conference and decide the meanings of words they are using.

 

That exactly is the point.

 

That is why, I used the words "the collective unconsciously formed convention of  the entire speaker group".  

 

This way of looking at word-meaning relation is not my invention. It has been part of modern general linguistics understanding for long. 

 

In general linguistics, 'arbitrary' relation between word and meaning is explained through the concept of 'convention'. 

 

What is interesting is that Hari informs us that such a view existed among the ancient Indian linguists too as one of many ways of theorizing the word-meaning relation.

 

अनागमश् च सॊ ऽभ्यासः समयः कैश् चिद् इष्यतॆ /

अनन्तरम् इदं कार्यम् अस्माद् इत्य् उपदर्शकः // वाक्य_२।११८ //

The second half of the verse, "अनन्तरम् इदं कार्यम् अस्माद् इत्य् उपदर्शकः " is in fact , an elaborated version of the technical term इतिकर्तव्यता only.

 

In any case, what I was trying to do was to show that the concepts such as ईश्वरकृतं in ancient Indian shastras are not incompatible with the rational understandings such as the collective unconsciously formed convention which are involved in the understanding of the formation /emergence/coming into existence of social systems in any society. If such a samanvaya is not realized , it leads to the imagination that Eeshvara, one fine morning , sat under a tree and went on connecting each word of a language with its meanings, or called all the people and said, "ye, you all shall live in future as per this social system and they started following it. "  To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning and there was that meaning of that word "  or God said, "let there be this social system and there was that social system" is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

 

 

  

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

AadaraNIya Sivasenaniji,

I agree. Let me restate the same (your explanation) avoiding the categories that carry the notions outside our s'aastras.

Unlike the 'religions' where a personal God is first accepted/believed in  and then phenomena are seen /understood/believed as His creation, In Indian s'aastras , as I understand, the concepts such as Ishvara and Brahman are arrived at through the understanding / explanation of the phenomena.

 Ishvara for example , is the entity that is arrived at as the common cause of the processes such as convention that are responsible for the word-meaning relations, social systems etc. through the analysis of speech systems and social systems.

Similarly what is arrived at as the common cause of  all the different relations between padaarthas, all the existences(beings -asti bhaavas), changes (becomings- bhavati bhaavas), actions (doings- kriyaa bhaavas) etc. through the analysis of all these is also given the name Ishvara.

In the case of naamakaraNa by persons too, there is a system / convention of how such naamakaraNa is done in a certain language. For each language, the person doing naamakaraNa follows that convention. The entity that is arrived at as the common cause of the processes such as convention that are responsible for the word-meaning relations, social systems etc.is also responsible for the convention of naming.

You may recognize this entity and view all these as its doings or you may as well say these are all running irrespective of whether the common cause of all these is recognized with name Ishvara or not.

That is  the point in

तस्य कर्तारमपि मां विद्ध्यकर्तारमव्ययम्॥ 4\-13॥

कर्तारमपि अकर्तारमपि can be understood that way.

[N.R.Joshi]

Nov 23, 2016

 

Respectd Prof N Paturi,

 I accidently deleted your posting prior the one listed by me here. Will you kindly repost it. It is short one. Thanks NRJOSHI

--------------------------------------------------

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} A vers e in the Gita
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 08:18:07 +0530

I was trying to keep the discussion focussed on the theme of the thread, creation of a social system by 'lord'.

 

Jaati, Dravya, Vyakti in Hari may need a separate thread.

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

The common convention that Prof. Paturi mentions could be hundreds of years in the making.  A theory can be made that

the neurological mappings of events and thoughts could be same to all human beings.  The expression and speech

could be different because of local conditions of geography, intonation and accent.  Once speech words are made they

can travel and be acquired by learning (copying or imitating).  Through travel they can transform.  Hence a theory of language

must deal with the peculiar words that could be in use untarnished in a region.  Names of the local fruits in old oral languages

could be good candidates of study.

Bhartrhari makes the important observation that all words denote "classes" (jAti), which is the concept behind the object/event.

Then one gets a specific application (visheSa) when using in a context in a sentence.  A jAti can have a myriad renderings!

Sri Aurobindo makes a whole theory of the Vedas by creating an alternate map of the Vedic words. 

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 9:17 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Punctuation mistake:

 

To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning" and there was that meaning of that word   or God said, "let there be this social system" and there was that social system is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

 

not

 

To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning and there was that meaning of that word "  or God said, "let there be this social system and there was that social system" is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 7:23 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One cannot cover the entire speaker group to hold conference and decide the meanings of words they are using.

 

That exactly is the point.

 

That is why, I used the words "the collective unconsciously formed convention of  the entire speaker group".  

 

This way of looking at word-meaning relation is not my invention. It has been part of modern general linguistics understanding for long. 

 

In general linguistics, 'arbitrary' relation between word and meaning is explained through the concept of 'convention'. 

 

What is interesting is that Hari informs us that such a view existed among the ancient Indian linguists too as one of many ways of theorizing the word-meaning relation.

 

अनागमश् च सॊ ऽभ्यासः समयः कैश् चिद् इष्यतॆ /

अनन्तरम् इदं कार्यम् अस्माद् इत्य् उपदर्शकः // वाक्य_२।११८ //

The second half of the verse, "अनन्तरम् इदं कार्यम् अस्माद् इत्य् उपदर्शकः " is in fact , an elaborated version of the technical term इतिकर्तव्यता only.

 

In any case, what I was trying to do was to show that the concepts such as ईश्वरकृतं in ancient Indian shastras are not incompatible with the rational understandings such as the collective unconsciously formed convention which are involved in the understanding of the formation /emergence/coming into existence of social systems in any society. If such a samanvaya is not realized , it leads to the imagination that Eeshvara, one fine morning , sat under a tree and went on connecting each word of a language with its meanings, or called all the people and said, "ye, you all shall live in future as per this social system and they started following it. "  To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning and there was that meaning of that word "  or God said, "let there be this social system and there was that social system" is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

 

 

  

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[unni krishnan]

ch4sloka13

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

Do you mean cāturvarnyam etc? This is G 4.13
Best
DB.

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 9:45 PM, unni krishnan <unnikr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ch4sloka13
>
> On 21 November 2016 at 20:28, Ravi Khangai <ravik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Respected Scholars,
>> Namskaram
>> Kindly tell me the ch and verse no in the Gita where lord says that it
>> was I who crated four fold division.
>> Thanking in advance
>>
>> --
>> "My heart is so full of love for God, that there is no space left for the
>> hatred of Satan"- Rabia, 8th century Sufi.
>>
>> -Dr. Ravi Khangai, Assistant Professor, P.G.T.D. History, RTM Nagpur
>> University, Nagpur, Maharashtra, India-440033
>>
>> Adjunct Faculty
>>
>> Hindu University of America
>> 5200 Vineland Road, Suite 120, Orlando, FL 32811, USA.
>>
>> Mo- 918446000912, 919665575896
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

>> email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

>> To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Looking at the thread going out of track, I wanted to share my post, you wanted me to repost.

If your intended response brings the thread back to track, fine. Otherwise, you might want to respond through a new thread, with a suitable title.  

> One cannot cover the entire speaker group to hold conference and decide the meanings of words they are using.

That exactly is the point.

That is why, I used the words "the collective unconsciously formed convention of  the entire speaker group".  

This way of looking at word-meaning relation is not my invention. It has been part of modern general linguistics understanding for long. 

In general linguistics, 'arbitrary' relation between word and meaning is explained through the concept of 'convention'. 

What is interesting is that Hari informs us that such a view existed among the ancient Indian linguists too as one of many ways of theorizing the word-meaning relation.

अनागमश् च सॊ ऽभ्यासः समयः कैश् चिद् इष्यतॆ /

अनन्तरम् इदं कार्यम् अस्माद् इत्य् उपदर्शकः // वाक्य_२।११८ //

The second half of the verse, "अनन्तरम् इदं कार्यम् अस्माद् इत्य् उपदर्शकः " is in fact , an elaborated version of the technical term इतिकर्तव्यता only.

In any case, what I was trying to do was to show that the concepts such as ईश्वरकृतं in ancient Indian shastras are not incompatible with the rational understandings such as the collective unconsciously formed convention which are involved in the understanding of the formation /emergence/coming into existence of social systems in any society. If such a samanvaya is not realized , it leads to the imagination that Eeshvara, one fine morning , sat under a tree and went on connecting each word of a language with its meanings, or called all the people and said, "ye, you all shall live in future as per this social system and they started following it. "  To imagine that God said, "let this word have this meaning and there was that meaning of that word "  or God said, "let there be this social system and there was that social system" is incompatible with the ancient Indian s'aastreeya view , leave alone Nyaya view.

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[N.R.Joshi]

Dec 14, 2016

 Dear Prof N. Paturi,

 

You wrote, "That is why, I used the words "the collective unconsciously formed convention of  the entire speaker group".  

 

Would you like to accept the meaning of shabdas from Rigveda are conventional and hence subject to change after some time?  N.R.Joshi

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

>>You wrote, "That is why, I used the words "the collective unconsciously formed convention of  the entire speaker group".  

 

> Would you like to accept the meaning of shabdas from Rigveda are conventional and hence subject to change after some time?  N.R.Joshi

----------  The concept of 'convention' that I mentioned does not have the implication that the meaning of a word used in a certain text changes in course of time. Leave alone the meaning of a word in Rigveda, even the meaning of a word in a verse of Kalidasa remains the same in that verse as long as the verse exists. The meaning of a word that occurs in a certain mantra/rik of Rigveda remains the same in that mantra/rik forever.

The same word that is used in that mantra/rik of Rigveda could be found in another text of a later time. The meaning of that word in this later time text could be different from the meaning of the same in the said mantra/rik of Rigveda.

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[Savitri]

Chatur varnam maya srushtim
Guna karma vibhagasah.....iv chapter 13 sloka

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