Patanjali-Vag-yoga-Identification

[Dr.BVK Sastry]

Namaste

(I am changing the subject line to keep the linked issues of previous
thread; yet have a separate thread)

This is regarding the use of quoted Mahabhashya passage under
reference for ‘ traditional identification’ of Patanjali of Yoga and
Patanjali of Vyakarana. (Please excuse for the long and involved post.
The issue addressed here is not as simple as it seems, to be resolved
by an opinion or a text validation.)

I continue researching on this topic of ‘Vag-yoga’ for several years,
way back since 70’s as a part of vyakarana studies. Eminent scholars
like Vidwan Ranganatha Sharma have been helpful in shaping my thoughts
on this topic. The understanding of ‘Vag-yoga’ tradition needs to be
handled separately from ‘Patanjali Identification’ issue.

Vag-yoga tradition is a living tradition. It is a part of Sri-vidya
practical-part of Vedanta-Yoga system. Vag-Yoga is also known as
‘mantra-yoga’ in close circles. ALL systems of philosophies, mystics,
music as yoga, traditional religious rituals have ingrained in them
the use of ‘Vag-yoga’, though not articulated and called so.

Just for records, I have taught a full course on theory and practice
of ‘Vag-yoga’ in US under the name of ‘Spiritual Linguistics’ as
semester credits/ intensives ; as a current practicing yoga technique
for three batches of students . My first paper on this topic was
presented for WAVES-2002.

My summary findings are noted below:

1) The text quoted in mahabhashya referring to the word ‘Vag-yoga’ is
an ancient vedic reference according to the mahabhashya text.

The inference from this would be that there must have been a ‘Yoga-
tradition’ prevalent and prior to Patanjali , which carries this name.
From this perspective, I prefer to go by RNI noting earlier, reading
< Instead of attributing the authorship of a ‘book/ grantha’ to a
particular person when he is unidentifiable, except emotionally, it is
preferable to refer to the available work as a school / tradition /
parampara/ sampradaaya. This would help, at the least, discussions
connected with relative chronology. >

2) If historically and chronologically we accept Bhagavadgita is an
older text, way back before Patanajali of Vyakarana and of Yoga
sutra (- by how much ? is a different issue) , then the yoga
tradition of Vak, referred to in Bhagavad-Gita 17-15 as below seems to
be an important anchor to make further investigation .Reference in
Gita : < anudvegakaraM vaakyam, satyaM priyahitaM cha yat .
svaadhyaayaabhyasananaM chaiva vaaNmayaM tapa uchyate >

From this point, one can find the prior connection of Yoga and Speech
(Vaak) in upanishat : cf: Taittiriya Upanishad – Instruction of Varuna
to Bhrugu to contemplate on Brahman: ‘Where points –perspectives of
contemplation are given as ‘ eyes, ears, manas, .. vaacham iti’. The
rest of the Tatiitriya Upanishad is silent on how these points of
investigation-guidance was used by Bhrigu. And commentaries are also
generally silent on it. In my understanding, this part of guidance was
‘ anushaasana’ and not for documentation. There are umpteen
references to Yoga of Vaak in Vedic and Brahmana /aaranyaka texts.
Tantra uses this as ‘antar-yajna’.

3) The word ‘Vag-yoga’ in the reference from Mahabhashya is not
elaborated in other commentaries of Kaiyyata and Nagesha in the domain
of 'Vyakarana'- which is outbound speech for expressive communication
in practical world. When Bhartruhari speaks of ‘Shabda-brahma’ /
Sphota, it is a far deeper integration of multiple disciplines :
Vedanta-Yoga-Vyakarana as Vedanga- Tantra. It is a direction for 'In-
bound spech Process investigation: the ephemeral sounds dissolving in
to the eternal Supreme Divine'.

4) The tradition of ‘Vak’ as a ‘Yoga sadhana is specified in Shikhsa
Sutra < well known as atma buddhya samayuktah, mano yungthe..>. The
Tantra parlor uses the layered concept with the technical vocabulary
of Para-pashyanti-madhyama-vaikhari, again seen in Mahabhashya.
Therefore, I am of the opinion that ‘Vag-yoga-vid’ is a singular –
unique expression of a higher order practice of Yoga, in the line of
‘Vangmayam tapah’.

5) Much of the studies of Abhinavagupta in relation to Pratybhijna
darshana are ‘viewed with a ‘lens colored by a ‘saivite’ perspective,
due to the title ‘Maha Maheswara Acharya’ . When one studies deeper
parts of the text and practice the instruction in the source,
‘Bhairava –Bhariavee’ upasana is not much of a savitie pantheon
deity / fierce, disgusting drunken merry making lustful form in
tantra. It is the subtlest form of investigation following the ‘speech
sounds to the source’ to ‘Realize the Supreme Divine (mahato Deva /
maha deva /mahaa devi ; shiva-shakti in varna-svara)’. One needs to
understand the ‘spanda’ part in spanda –kaarikas to get a glimpse on
this line of analysis and get support from practicing people –
insiders of tradition. Language Sounds ( Varna-maalaa) are 'Shiva-
Sutra' - threads leading the connection to Shiva (supreme) ; holding
the manifestation of Shiva (like the thread of a garland binding the
flowers, yet invisible). It is a dee[er tradition of 'Naama-roopa-
Vyakarana'.

6) Samskrutham (- aka Sanskrit) is a structure which is primarily
‘voice’ oriented and not ‘visual script oriented’. The supposed
corruption of text may not be really so, unless one has validation
from the ‘voice tradition /Practicing tradition’. If one looks at the
way yajurveda is voiced and scripted, the north Indian recension is
challenging. The script is ‘Zha’ ; the voiced phoneme is ‘Kha’. There
are reasons for such scripting and rule of pronunciation. Therefore
excessive reliance on ‘script /manuscript / scribe ‘ in reconstruction
of text and subsequent argumentation is to be done with care.

7) Reg. Yoga sutra text of Patanjali: It is easy to throw a
suggestion that there might be text-variations in very early period
for a standard text, currently received and being used. Example: Yoga
sutra , Ashtadhyayi, Mahabhashya. The logic used is very commendable
and appealing – lack of surviving scripted manuscripts, scribe errors,
script discrepancies, human memory fallacies, variant teaching
traditions et al. Is that enough basis for making challenging claims
on the authenticity of a reading in a given text /suggest alternative
readings and constructions ? I have reservations on this.

Please permit to me to raise a flag here.

It is a commonly held understanding that Patanjali of Yoga sutra is
the anchor for ‘Yoga-Darshana’ - one of the six systems of
Philosophy. This is the view even in the current traditional schools
teaching Vedanta.

7a) If yoga tradition foot prints are there in Upanishads / Gita
before Patanjali of Yoga sutra ; and they are the anchors of
‘Vedanta’ school, how come ‘Yoga sutra’ dared to tread a different
line compared to ‘Brahma-sutra’ ? Alternatively why 'Shiva sutra' is
not to be handled like 'Brahma-sutra?

7b) If Yoga system is alien in vision to Vedanta, why then the
Vedanta masters use the title ‘Ashtanga yoga nishNaata’ and claim
‘yoga siddhi’ instead of calling it as ‘Veda-vedanta siddhi’? Why yoga
is needed by Vedanta schools, only as a tool sans the darshana from
yoga ?

7c) Why existing Yoga guidance schools are not able to lead the
practitioner from Samadhi (- the last point of ashtanga yoga) to the
further advanced phase of ‘Kaivalya’ specified in fourth chapter? How
is Kaivalya different from Samadhi ? What is the journeying guidance
from samdhi to Kaivalya ? How different is Kaivalya from
‘Jeevanmukti / Videha mukti ’ in Vedanta?

While many go great guns on ‘Ashtanga yoga ( YS 2-29), where is the
deliberations on yoga path derivatives from YS 2-1: tapas as Yoga,
Swadhyaya as Yoga, Ishwara-prandihana as yoga and the related
‘Ashtangas’ within this ? YS 2-1 stands on the top of YS-2-29 in
category conceptualization and derivation. The concept of tapas and
swadhyaya in (2-1) is a main category. The same terms tapas (2-43 )
and Swadhyaya (2-44 ) are sub category derivative of (2-32) under
(2-29). The main category and sub category need to be treated per
merits of the text and not by ‘phonemic similarity’.

8) Additional Notes about difficulties in comprehending foot
prints of Vag-yoga tradition:

In the current period, Yoga in US is still at the Body-breath level as
for practice ; and in the fold of ‘yoga as one school Indian
philosophy’ in the academics.

The first part is due to the error of mistaking ‘Hatha-yoga –physical
part’ as ‘Patanjali yoga’, as a totally language independent workout.
The pursuing markets being beneficiaries by body-health. This is
making Yoga a ‘Yoga-studio – service / exotic nature / therapeutic
value commodity’. This segment is NOT yet ready for comprehending the
nuances of ‘Vag-Yoga’.

The second one is academic , making the serious hermeneutic error in
deployment of language tool in understanding Yoga. Generally the
study of the text of Yoga Sutra is followed per rules of Panini,
currently known as ‘Sanskrit language’. This current academic
understanding –usage of ‘Sanskrit as a language like any other
language of the early period’ carries with it an integral baggage of a
‘historicity, human , socio-temporal, cultural classical language
frame limitation’. If one carefully reads and looks at the ‘Language
modeling concept’ used in all the source texts, and in this case, for
‘Vag-yoga’ Yoga tradition uses a ‘Vedanga model of Language’. This is
totally different from the social language construct, used as
‘Sanskrit for Samskrutham’. The understanding of ‘Vag-yoga’- the use
of language elements and processes as a tool to inquire in to the
nature of the Supreme Divine can not emerge from the social model of
language. In other words, to understand ‘Vag-yoga’. One needs to
understand ‘samskrutham aka Sanskrit’ in the following perspectives:
Vedanga ( Langauge tool for investigation in to the nature of the
Language –Knowledge – elements and processes), Samskrutham as ‘Deva-
Bhasha (- the language of the system of knowledge experience through
the tools of knowledge acquisition called ‘indriyas /devas’), Mantra-
bhashaa (- the language tool which helps to transcend the frame of
Mind and go beyond to the source of Desire to Express one self: yato
vaacho nivartante ) , Veda- Bhashaa (- the language of knowledge –
Visioning Knowledge). The academia language-religion scholastia
segment is NOT yet ready for this model of comprehending the ‘Vag-
Yoga’ of ‘Samskrutham’ referenced by Patanjali in Mahabhashya.

In Indian context, the core understanding of Vag-yoga is seen /
retained in select practicing traditions at very closely guarded
circles as a ‘Guhya / Mystic Secret for spiritual aims’. First phase
of Vag-yoga in the schema of yoga –tantra is on the border of
‘crossing the Panchabhoota tattva (aakaasha shareeram Brahma).
Advanced phase of vag-yoga is in the border of ‘ yato-vacho
nivartante’. For worldly needs, Vag-yoga is a ‘emotion reforming yoga /
Mind control Yoga (Bhaava shuddhi / Manah Prashamana as yoga
vashistha calls it) ’.


Regards

BVK Sastry

[hnbhat B.R.]

Thaniks for a good analysis of the issue. 

"Vaagyogavid duShyati cApashabdaiH" A debate on this part itself is an example of the overall meaning of the word "vAgyogavid".

And if we take vAgyogavid - as vAGmayaM tapas, it goes back to the tradition of literary personages as Bhavabhuti attested 

RShINAm punar AdyAnAM vAcam artho 'nudhAvati|

This same vAg-yoga, is the initial verse of the Adi-kavi vAlmIki - 

तपःस्वाध्यायनिरतं तपस्वी वाग्विदां वरम् । 

नारदं परिपप्रच्छ वाल्मीकिर्मुनिपुङ्गवम् ॥ 

2.1:Tapah svadhyaya ishwara pranidhanani kriya yogah

 

Tapas in the above above two occasions, may or may not include vAGmaya tapas, which is often equated with vAgyoga. In the first it is specifically assigned to Narada, in contrast to vAlmIki, the becoming poet, and the ready poet. Now the question comes to the same position, whether vAgyogavid is equal to vAgvidAm vara or vashyavAk in other terminology.

Just added one more aspect of "vAgyoga" already discussed in the previous post. Now, to come to the next common term  a "compound" 

तपःस्वाध्याय needs attention in this context. tapas and svAdhyAya are independent parts of kriyAyoga as per the sUtra, as it appears, in the first face.  Now "tapas" again may include vAgyoga = vAGmayaM tapas as one of the components of kriyA-yoga. But in the first, it is commented as तपस्त्वेन श्रुतः स्वाध्यायस्तपःस्वाध्यायः । "तपःस्वाध्याय इति ब्राह्मणम्" इत्यापस्तम्बोक्तेः । by Tilaka. Though other interpretations are equally available.

 And so the discussion may be carried on with the connotations of the words in Sanskrit in the different fields/registers of the relevant shAstra-s, which follow their own metalanguage and register of their own enabling widely different interpretations for the same words. 

-- 

Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R.
EFEO,
PONDICHERRY

[Madhav M. Deshpande]

Dear Vidvāṃsaḥ,

This is a fruitful discussion of what I would call the changing
understanding of terms like vāg-yoga-vid used in the Mahābhāṣya. I am
not entirely convinced that the word yoga in this expression
originally referred to the meditative yoga elaborated in texts like
the Yogasūtras. It is quite clear that the word yoga in the
Mahābhāṣya has multiple meanings, the two relevant in this context are
yoga=sūtra and yoga=prayoga. The expression vāg-yoga-vid in its
original context could indeed have any of these different meanings: 1)
yoga (meditative practice) of vāk, 2) knower of rules of grammar as
well as of the usage of language, 3) knower of the prayoga of vāk.
Given that the term could have multiple meanings, the subsequent
history indicates that some of these meanings get highlighted in
certain traditions, while others get eclipsed. This complexity of the
expression vāg-yoga-vid in the Mahābhāṣya is especially evident when
we consider that the original citation of the verse containing this
expression says something that is potentially problematical: vāg-yoga-
vid duṣyati cāpaśabdaiḥ: "the vāg-yoga-vid is defiled by the
apaśabdas." This is then contested and finally Patañjali says: a-vāg-
yoga-vid eva (duṣyati cāpaśabdaiḥ). What seems clear is that the
citation itself is not Patañjali's own verse, and that there is some
discomfort with what the verse apparently is saying, and hence
Patañjali in his own discussion is ultimately negating the wording of
the verse. It is very likely that the original verse is part of a
debate that appears elsewhere in the Paspaśāhnika: (apaśabda-)jñāne
adharmaḥ, athavā prayoge adharmaḥ. Note the word prayoga in this
debate which contains the element -yoga. Most likely the word was
originally used in the context of a grammatically relevant discussion,
and then later it was interpreted in a wider context. More food for
thought for all of us. Thanks for this stimulating discussion. Best,

Madhav Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

On 14 May, 22:46, "hnbhat B.R." <hnbha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thaniks for a good analysis of the issue.
>
> "Vaagyogavid duShyati cApashabdaiH" A debate on this part itself is an
> example of the overall meaning of the word "vAgyogavid".
>
> And if we take vAgyogavid - as vAGmayaM tapas, it goes back to the tradition
> of literary personages as Bhavabhuti attested
>
> RShINAm punar AdyAnAM vAcam artho 'nudhAvati|
>
> This same vAg-yoga, is the initial verse of the Adi-kavi vAlmIki -
>

> *तपःस्वाध्याय*निरतं तपस्वी वाग्विदां वरम् ।

> नारदं परिपप्रच्छ वाल्मीकिर्मुनिपुङ्गवम् ॥
>

> 2.1:*Tapah svadhyaya* ishwara pranidhanani kriya yogah

>
> Tapas in the above above two occasions, may or may not include vAGmaya
> tapas, which is often equated with vAgyoga. In the first it is specifically
> assigned to Narada, in contrast to vAlmIki, the becoming poet, and the ready
> poet. Now the question comes to the same position, whether vAgyogavid is
> equal to vAgvidAm vara or vashyavAk in other terminology.
>
> Just added one more aspect of "vAgyoga" already discussed in the previous
> post. Now, to come to the next common term  a "compound"

> *तपःस्वाध्याय needs attention in this context. tapas and svAdhyAya are

> independent parts of kriyAyoga as per the sUtra, as it appears, in the first

> face. * Now "tapas" again may include vAgyoga = vAGmayaM tapas as one of the

[hnbhat B.R.]

2011/5/15 Madhav M. Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu>

Dear Sir,

You have exactly reflected my thoughts contained in my reply. The meaning of vAg-yoga is clearly explicit in the previous part of the verse,

yastu prayumkte kushalo visheshe shabdaan yathaavad vyavaharakaale I so(a)nantamaapnoti phalam paratra vaagyogavid dushyati chaapashabdaih: II'

He is speaking of the correct usage and perfect in the usage of the language for all practical purposes and we are entering into all the possible connotations in different shastra-s for vAg+yoga independently or in association. I just thought of it, and you have spelled it out loudly.

 

It is the "kushala" who is taken up again in the second half, by vAg-yoga-vid. This much is explicit. The highlighted variant for  jayam in the verse, too seems to be the the effect of such forward thinking in terms of other shAstra-s.

[T.S. Rukmani]

Dear Sastriji,
Good to hear all of these fascinating ideas on vag-yoga. AS already mentioned by some of the esteemed scholars in this list the same word occurring in multiple disciplines calls for a scholar of that kind of caliber to disentangle its meaning in all of the different contexts. Reading all this I feel like a dwarf trying to touch the top of a mountain (taking liberties with Kalidasa).
Om
Rukmani

Dr. T.S. Rukmani
Professor and Chair in Hindu Studies
Concordia University
Department of Religion
1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd West
Montreal, Quebec
H3G 1M8
tel: 514-848-2424 ext. 4085
fax: 514-848-4541
email: ruk...@alcor.concordia.ca

Namaste

Regards

BVK Sastry

--
अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि।
ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।
तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः।
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)

[Saroja Bhate]

I agree with both. Madhav and HN Bhat.The verse talks about, I feel ,a person in general, and says that if he is kushala etc in his use of words he becomes vaagyogavid and victorious, but  if he uses apashabdas he is defiled. Vaagyogavid can be thus understood as the epithet, compliment of the kushala person   Thus we can avoid the confusion arising by construing Vaagyogavid with dushyati caapashabdaih.Patanjali shows, in his usual style, the possibility of alternative interpretation( or misinterpretation) of the line and plays with the words.  If sah is the agent of the sentence with two clauses, namely. jayam aapnoti and dushyati

there is no confusion. This ism my humble attempt to solve the problem.

Best

Bhate

---

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of hnbhat B.R.
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 05:37 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Patanjali-Vag-yoga-Identification

2011/5/15 Madhav M. Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu>

Dear Vidvā?sa?,

    This is a fruitful discussion of what I would call the changing

understanding of terms like vāg-yoga-vid used in the Mahābhā?ya.  I am

not entirely convinced that the word yoga in this expression
originally referred to the meditative yoga elaborated in texts like
the Yogasūtras.  It is quite clear that the word yoga in the

Mahābhā?ya has multiple meanings, the two relevant in this context are
yoga=sūtra and yoga=prayoga.  The expression vāg-yoga-vid in its

original context could indeed have any of these different meanings: 1)
yoga (meditative practice) of vāk, 2) knower of rules of grammar as
well as of the usage of language, 3) knower of the prayoga of vāk.
Given that the term could have multiple meanings, the subsequent
history indicates that some of these meanings get highlighted in
certain traditions, while others get eclipsed.  This complexity of the

expression vāg-yoga-vid in the Mahābhā?ya is especially evident when

we consider that the original citation of the verse containing this
expression says something that is potentially problematical: vāg-yoga-

vid du?yati cāpaśabdai?: "the vāg-yoga-vid is defiled by the

apaśabdas."  This is then contested and finally Patañjali says: a-vāg-

yoga-vid eva (du?yati cāpaśabdai?).  What seems clear is that the

citation itself is not Patañjali's own verse, and that there is some
discomfort with what the verse apparently is saying, and hence
Patañjali in his own discussion is ultimately negating the wording of
the verse.  It is very likely that the original verse is part of a
debate that appears elsewhere in the Paspaśāhnika: (apaśabda-)jñāne

adharma?, athavā prayoge adharma?.  Note the word prayoga in this

debate which contains the element -yoga.  Most likely the word was
originally used in the context of a grammatically relevant discussion,
and then later it was interpreted in a wider context.  More food for
thought for all of us.  Thanks for this stimulating discussion.  Best,

Madhav Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

You have exactly reflected my thoughts contained in my reply. The meaning of vAg-yoga is clearly explicit in the previous part of the verse,

 

yastu prayumkte kushalo visheshe shabdaan yathaavad vyavaharakaale I so(a)nantamaapnoti phalam paratra vaagyogavid dushyati chaapashabdaih: II'

 

He is speaking of the correct usage and perfect in the usage of the language for all practical purposes and we are entering into all the possible connotations in different shastra-s for vAg+yoga independently or in association. I just thought of it, and you have spelled it out loudly.

 

It is the "kushala" who is taken up again in the second half, by vAg-yoga-vid. This much is explicit. The highlighted variant for  jayam in the verse, too seems to be the the effect of such forward thinking in terms of other shAstra-s.

 

--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R.
EFEO,
PONDICHERRY

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[Dr.BVK Sastry]

Namaste

Thanks to all Samskrutham scholars for deliberating on the topic of
‘Vag-Yoga’ in relation to Patanjali Identification issue. It still
leaves the thread open on the following issues, which have a bearing
on how Samskrutham aka Sanskrit needs to be studied. The open ends in
the debate are the following: :

V-Yoga-Q-1) What is Vag-Yoga’?
V-Yoga-Q-2) How one becomes a ‘ Vag-yoga’-vid?
V-Yoga-Q-3) What is the anchor tradition of Vag-Yoga?
V-Yoga-Q-4) Why is Patanjali desirous of invoking Yoga in
Vyakarana discussion, if Vyakarana is just a classical historical
language grammar , constrained to a social communication focused
language of a given mobile society?

I am placing my understanding -reflection on these four points
requesting further interaction.
*************
V-Yoga-Q-1) What is Vag-Yoga’?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
BVK Sastry: Vag-Yoga is a tradition which Patanjali inherits from
Katyayana , according to Udyotakaara. The source of the original
quote’ yastu prayungthe kushalah..’ is mentioned by Patanjali as
‘BhrAjAh nAma shlokAh’. This confirms that Vag-yoga tradition is
ancient and prior to Patanjali at least.

The compound word ‘Vag-yoga’ is resolved in udyota as ‘VAcho Yogah,
prakruti-pratyaya-vibhAgena artha-vishesha-paratvam’ . Therefore vag-
yoga is a single word communicative of a singular tradition which is
an inheritance to Patanjali.

Sub questions:

V-Yoga-Q-1-1) Do we have any more on the ‘BhrajaH’ work attributed to
Katyayana ?

V-Yoga-Q-1-2) Do we have any more on the ‘Vag-Yoga’ in later
grammarians’ – part from Sphota, Para-Pashanti- Madhyama-Vaikhari
model ( generally leaning to Tantra ) ?

V-Yoga-Q-1-3) Do we have any more on the ‘Vag-Yoga’ in the known Yoga
schools ? And commentaries ? Which probably need to be looked in the
realm of Patanjali Yoga Sutra 3-17, reading : ShabdArtha-
pratyayAnAm itaretara-adhyAsAt sankaraH; tat- pravibhAga-saMyamAt
sarva-bhUta-ruta-jnAnaM :: Translation: There is confusion because
a word , its intended object and the idea (conveyed) are superimposed
on one another. If saMyama is practiced on them separately, there is
knowledge of the sounds of all living beings. (Dr. T S Rukmani’s
Book) .


***************
V-Yoga-Q-2) How one becomes a ‘ Vag-yoga’-vid?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
BVK Sastry: One becomes a ‘Vag-Yogi’ /Vag-yoga-Vid by practicing Vag-
Yoga. What then are the practice guidance - details ? It is this
question which leads to the exploration on ‘Guidance in Vedic
segments /Upanishads / Brahmanas /Aranyakas’ which speak about ‘Vak’
as the focus for meditation, Vak as a means for ‘Brahma-JijnAsA’.
There are far too many references in this regard, and backed by a
continuity of living tradition.

The core thought of this line of thinking are embedded in ‘Shiksha’
tradition. The ‘Vedic-Vag-Yoga’ is detailed in Shiksha works related
to Veda and in Pratishakhyas. The Vag-Yoga of Bhashaa (- where
Bhashaa is aka Samskrutham aka Paninian Sanskrit ) is detailed in
the Tantra works and Sri-Vidya related.)

The benefits of Vedic and Bhashaa Vag-Yogas are appropriately stated
in Patanajali’s primary reference as above: yastu prayungtha
kushalah.

***************
V-Yoga-Q-3) What is the anchor tradition of Vag-Yoga?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
BVK Sastry: The anchor of Vag-Yoga is Vedanga ‘Shiksha’ tradition.
The ‘Vedic-Vag-Yoga’ is detailed in Shiksha works related to Veda and
in Pratishakhyas. The Vag-Yoga of Bhashaa (-, where Bhashaa is
aka Samskrutham aka Sanskrit ) is detailed in the Tantra works and
Sri-Vidya related. Taittiriya upanishad ShikshA-valli is one useful
point for immediate reference.

***************
V-Yoga-Q-4) Why is Patanjali /KatyAyana desirous of invoking Yoga
in Vyakarana discussion?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
BVK Sastry: The opening question in Paspashahnka is :Kimartham Adheyam
Vyakaraam ? and this deliberation goes in two streams : One for
(Chandas) Vedas and one for Worldly Langauge (Bhashaa). Panini has
covered both these aspects in one unified set of rules in Ashtadhyayi.
Patanjali is reiterating this in the PaspashAnika debate with the
top branching of Words as : Laukikanam (Words in Worldly usage) and
VaidikAnAm (Words of Chandas) . The technicality of what is a ‘Word’
– kastarhi shabdah? - is limited to the ‘Laukika Shabda’; the Vaidika
shabda nature is NOT detailed.

Udyotakaara points out why this issue is not detailed in Bhashya.
<‘Siddhanta vAdI tu vyAkaranasya vedAngatvAd sAmarthyAdavagatiH iti
matvA aha..> This shows clearly that understanding in traditional
schools about the mode of Vyakarana study is very clearly understood;
that ‘words in ‘Chandas’ are not historical, human tinkered poetic
panegyric tribal constructions with an awe to natures phenomenon /
please a king /god/s, as indologists / IE linguists /Colonial
scholars postulate; resulting in making ‘Vedas to become the historic
documented source of Hinduism, a World Religion’.
Even though the ‘vedic words’ are used in the worldly usage in a
‘slack way’, the words of veda do not deserve the same kind of
treatment as worldy words; When even a laukika –bhashaa word is used
in the specific context of veda, the method of understanding and
interpreting it needs to follow special rules. Porting Jaiminiya
(Vakya shastra) understanding of 'word-meaning debate' in to vyakarana
(pada-Shastra) in a 'partial -preferred way is a fig-leaf cover for a
flawed argument !

Picking the sub branch question: What is the advantage of studying
the rules of vyakarana, ( kAni punaH shabdAnushAsanasya prayojanani),
the emergent answer is : ‘Vyakarana is to be studied for meeting five
specific needs in relation to vedic studies. Further elaborating on
this, ‘Thirteen illustrative Additional benefits of Vyakarana study
in relation to Veda’ are given. The present quote ‘yastu prayunghte
kushalah’ comes under the fourth one called ‘ Yastu Prayungthe'- 'What
If' one uses language-words (Vedic and worldly) in prescribed modes or
violates the same ? The benefit of rule compliance is anchored to
Dharma /Veda-Dharma. The related discussions in this segment show
clearly how the grammar technicalities of Vibhakti- Karaka –Sthana –
Prayatna for the varnas – Svara –Standard form determination by rule
compliance –The four fold word classification as nAma-AkhyAta-upasarga-
nipAta are within the frame of the ‘Vedic Tradition’.

What Patanjali did in Mahabhasya has been continued in Bhartruhari,
with a leaning towards a derivation of ' Upanishad -Vedanta' from the
'yoga of Speech'. The Sphota /Shabda-Brahma is the resultant
technicality. Sphota is the technicality of 'Vag-Yoga-JijnAsa,
resulting in Shabda-brahma Darshana'.

In this backdrop, if (a) Yoga is considered an integral practice-
guidance from Vedic tradition (b) If Veda is a ‘ Spiritual Language-
Speech-Voice Tradition (Vak /Shruti ) , THEN putting the two
together, Vag-Yoga would mean ‘Yoga of Vak’; which can be understood
only when one studies ‘Samskrutham aka Sanskrit as ‘Vedanga'.

The question at large stands :Is there any Samskrutham Institution
teaching the langauge of Vedic traditions in Vedanga model ( - which
is different from reading the Vaidika prakarana rules in the grammar
rule book, where veda is handled as a historic document / vedic
language is a branch out PIE offshoot / African origin ? !) How are we
studying Samskrutham in the current period - As it was originally
framed OR in an ' Alien model redefined way, because we are
doubting / not ready / not willing to stand by a native tradition
sentried by a half-naked weakling with a 'tuft on head' ?

In my understanding, the method of instructions for study of
Samskrutham as ‘Vedanga-Vyakarana ‘ is founded on the anchor of
Shiksha –Sahstra as Vedanga’; Paniniya Shiksha has been sidelined in
preference to the IPA phonetic system to meet the roman script
conventions. The primary tradition and pedagogy has been eclipsed in
the last two hundred years by the ‘colonial / indological / oriental
model of studying Samskrutham as ‘Historical Sanskrit, on par with the
classical ( aka dead; not in current worldly usage; not spoken; only
scripted ) European languages’. This is a consequent of ‘docile
acceptance of euro-centric views by the traditional schools, failing
to raise a flag and voice their concerns which has made the ‘sacred
revelation in to a sacrilegious panegyric of tribal’s migrating to an
alien land’ PLUS lack of ‘In-house enthusiasm to guard ones own
cultural, spiritual inheritance properly’, resulting in ‘barren
research in the field of Sanskrit.

Please do not mistake this anguish for a language tradition in to any
other way of critiquing any scholar or school, please.

It is in this context, further deliberations on Vag-Yoga’ are
requested.


Regards

BVK Sastry

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On May 16, 9:37 pm, "Saroja Bhate" <sar...@bhates.net> wrote:
> I agree with both. Madhav and HN Bhat.The verse talks about, I feel ,a person in general, and says that if he is kushala etc in his use of words he becomes vaagyogavid and victorious, but  if he uses apashabdas he is defiled. Vaagyogavid can be thus understood as the epithet, compliment of the kushala person   Thus we can avoid the confusion arising by construing Vaagyogavid with dushyati caapashabdaih.Patanjali shows, in his usual style, the possibility of alternative interpretation( or misinterpretation) of the line and plays with the words.  If sah is the agent of the sentence with two clauses, namely. jayam aapnoti and dushyati
>
> there is no confusion. This ism my humble attempt to solve the problem.
>
> Best
>
> Bhate
>
>   _____  
>