Marriage with real Sister's daughter and Father's real Sisiter's daughter and Marriage with Mother's real Brother's Daughter

[ramchander deekonda]

Respected Scholars,

While on the subject of Gotra and Sapinda I wish our learned scholars to this topic:

This is an issue which always goes undefended morally and scientifically.  This topic invariably shows the traditions of south Indians (Brahmins as well as non-Brahmins) in a morally depraved situation in the company of North Indian Hindus. Where is the sanction for such marriages?  My friends go to the extent of terming this practice as an incestuous tradition.

Please let us start a discussion on this issue from all possible angles, such as morality, religiosity and science. 

Please excuse me for using some unpleasant terms.  

Regards,

Ramchander Deekonda

[V Subrahmanian]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:10 AM, ramchander deekonda <ramchande...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected Scholars,

While on the subject of Gotra and Sapinda I wish our learned scholars to this topic:

This is an issue which always goes undefended morally and scientifically.  This topic invariably shows the traditions of south Indians (Brahmins as well as non-Brahmins) in a morally depraved situation in the company of North Indian Hindus. Where is the sanction for such marriages?  My friends go to the extent of terming this practice as an incestuous tradition.

Sir,

The above situation has been in existence for several centuries.  In the Jivanmukti viveka of Swami Vidyaranya we find, in the वासनाक्षयप्रकरणम् -

तथा हि देशविशेषेण परस्परं निन्दाबाहुल्यमुपलभ्यब्ब् ते । दाक्षिणात्यैर्विप्रैरौत्तरा वेदविदो विप्रा मांसभक्षिणो निन्द्यन्ते ।  औत्तराहैश्च मातुलसुतोद्वाहिनो यात्रासु मृद्भाण्डवाहिनो दाक्षिणात्या निन्द्यन्ते । ....एवं स्वस्वकुलगोत्रबन्धुवर्गेष्टदेवतादिप्रशंसा परकीयनिन्दा च आविद्वदङ्गनागोपालं सर्वत्र प्रसिद्धा ।

For the question you have raised, would it be proper to point out the marriage of Arjuna with Subhadra? 

I think when we recognize that it is 'शिष्टाचारः’ with respect to these practices, and if those who argue appreciate this, there will be an end to such censures and counter-censures.

warm regards

subrahmanian.v

Please let us start a discussion on this issue from all possible angles, such as morality, religiosity and science. 

Please excuse me for using some unpleasant terms.  

Regards,

Ramchander Deekonda

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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[Nityanand Misra]

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 10:11:08 AM UTC+5:30, ramchander deekonda wrote:

Please let us start a discussion on this issue from all possible angles, such as morality, religiosity and science. 

From a Dharmaśāstra point of view, you may please refer the following:

P. V. Kane (1941). History of Dharmaśāstra. Volume II, Part 1. pp. 452-466. Poona:Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute.

https://ia700400.us.archive.org/18/items/HistoryOfDharmasastraancientAndMediaevalReligiousAndCivilLawV.2.1/Kane_A-History-of-Dharmasastra-v2-1_1941.pdf

[rniyengar]

Please see Harivamsha which is Khila of MBh. Vide Vishnuparva Ch.61. Pradyumna married S'ubhAngi daughter of his maternal uncle (i.e. Rukmi brother of RukmiNi).  

His son Aniruddha married Rukmi's granddaughter. Please correct me if my understanding is not right.

tataH kAle vyatIte tu rukmI mahati vIryavAn |

duhituH kArayAmAsa svayaMvaramarindamaH ||2-61-1

tatrAhUtA hi rAjAno rAjaputrAshcha rukmiNA |

samAjagmurmahAvIryA nAnAdigbhyaH shriyAnvitAH ||2-61-2

tatrAjagAma pradyumnaH kumArairaparairvR^itaH |

sA hi taM chakame kanyA sa cha tAM shubhalochanAm ||2-61-3

shubhA~NgI nAma vaidarbhI kAntidyutisamanvitA |

pR^ithivyAmabhavatkhyAtA rukmiNastanayA tadA ||2-61-4

upaviShTeShu sarveShu pArthiveShu mahAtmasu |

vaidarbhI varayAmAsa pradyumnamarisUdanam ||2-61-5

sa hi sarvAstrakushalaH siMhasaMhanano yuvA |

rUpenApratimo loke keshavasyAtmajo.abhavat ||2-61-6

vayorUpaguNopetA rAjaputrI cha sAbhavat |

nArAyaNI chandrasenA jAtakAmA cha taM prati ||2-61-7

vR^itte svayaMvare jagmU rAjAnaH svapurANi te |

upAdAya cha vaidarbhIM pradyumno dvArakAM yayau ||2-61-8

reme saha tayA vIro damayantyA nalo yathA |

sa tasyAM janayAmAsa devagarbhopamaM sutam ||2-61-9

aniruddhamiti khyAtaM karmaNApratimaM bhuvi |

dhanurvede cha vede cha nItishAstre cha pAragam ||2-61-10

abhavatsa yadA rAjannaniruddho vayo.anvitaH |

tadAsya rukmiNaH pautrIM shrImatIM rukmasannibhAm |

patnyarthe varayAmAsa nAmnA rukmavatIti sA ||2-61-11

Regards

RN Iyengar

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

Where is the sanction for such marriages?  

                                                    --Vidvan Ramchander Deekonda

वेदः -  पूर्वमीमांसा - धर्मशास्त्रम् (कल्पः)

The issue , along with other similar issues, is  widely discussed by कुमारिलभट्ट in तन्त्रवार्तिकम् under शिष्टाकोपाधिकरणम् (1-3-3) --

सू 5 - शिष्टाकोपे अविरुद्धमिति चेत्   (पूर्वपक्षः)

Certain things can be performed if  they do not  offend the established norms

of वेद -

वेदं कृत्वा वेदिं करोति - is श्रुति  ( वेदः = दर्भमुष्टिः, वेदिः = altar)

 First  वेद and then वेदि - in between  the यजमान  got क्षुत् (sneeze) - ' क्षुते आचामेत् ’ says स्मृति - should the स्मृति be followed ?

सू 6 - न , शास्त्रपरिमाणत्वात्  (पूर्वपक्षः)

No , they are not to be performed - वेद says such and such a number of ’ things ' have to be performed - it also means that the sequence and प्राशुभाव ( quick succession) are important .

सू 7 अपि वा कारणाग्रहणे  प्रयुक्तानि प्रतीयेरन्  ( सिद्धान्तः)

अपि वा = the पूर्वपक्ष is not acceptable , कारणाग्रहणे = when  causes such as राग and द्वेष are not known for धर्मव्यतिक्रम and साहस of वैदिकs, then , प्रयुक्तानि = the धर्म and साहस they perform , प्रतीयेरन् = seem to be प्रमाण ।

वैदिकs are doing certain things , which have no sanction in वेद - in such cases , since no राग or द्वेष is seen, they can be taken as प्रमाणम् ।

It is here that कुमारिलभट्ट  raises a number of issues and discusses with मतभेद and finally says सदाचरप्रामाण्यम् supports such marriages . The discussion is too lengthy to cover . So I shall give the salient features -

सदाचारप्रामाण्याधिकरणम् --

अत्र सदाचारानुदाहृत्य त्रिवर्गसिद्ध्यर्थं विचार्यते । .... सदाचारेषु हि दृष्टो धर्मव्यतिक्रमः , सहसं च महतां प्रजापतीन्द्र......। वासुदेवार्जुनयोः प्रतिषिद्धमातुलदुहितृरुक्मिणीसुभद्रापरिणयनम् ...।

अद्यतननाम् आचाराक्षेपः --

अद्यत्वे’पि ...... मातुलदुहित्रुद्वाहसन्दीस्थभोजनादीनि दाक्षिणात्यानाम् ।

(आसन्दीस्थभोजनम् = table meals or sitting and placing the meal plate on the same - गौतमस्मृतिः)

सिद्धान्तः -

स्मृतिकाराश्चाचारश्चैव साधूनाम् (मनुस्मृतिः - Korada) , देशजातिकुलधर्माश्च 

आम्नायैरविरुद्धाः प्रमाणम् ( आपस्तम्बधर्मसूत्रम्) इति वेदाविरुद्धानाम् आचाराणां सामान्यतः प्रामाण्यम् अनुमन्यन्ते ।

आत्मतुष्टेः प्रामाण्यसधनम् - कुमारिल is referring to मनुस्मृति - आत्मनस्तुष्टिरेव च ।

एवं च विद्वद्वचनात् विनिर्गतं प्रसिद्धरूपं कविभिर्निरूपितम् -

सतां हि सन्देहवस्तुषु प्रमाणमन्तःकरणप्रवृत्तयः (शाकुन्तलम्) इति ।

मातुलदुहितृपरिणयस्य समाधानम् - -

वसुदेवाङ्गजाता च कौन्तेयस्य विरुद्ध्यते ।

न तु व्यपेतसंबन्धप्रभवे तद्विरुद्धता ।

सुभद्रा is not औरसपुत्री of वसुदेव - but distinctly daughter, so since there is distant relation it is not against  धर्मशास्त्रम् ।

येन ह्यन्यत्र एवमुक्तम् -

मम वर्त्मानुवर्तेरन् मनुष्याः पार्थ सर्वशः।

यद्यदाचरति श्रेष्ठः तत्तदेवेतरो जनः ॥

स यत्प्रमाणं कुरुते लोकस्तदनुवर्तते । (भगवद्गीता)

स कथं सर्वलोकादर्शभूतस्सन् विरुद्धाचारं प्रवर्तयिष्यति ? एतेन रुक्मिणीपरिणयनं व्याख्यातम् ।

अन्ये त्वेवम् आहुः ( कुमारिलस्य स्वमतम् - Korada) -

सर्वेषामेवमादीनां प्रतिदेशं व्यवस्थया ।

आपस्तम्बेन संहृत्य दुष्टादुष्टत्वमाश्रितम् ।।

येषां परम्पराप्राप्ताः पूर्वजैरप्यनुष्ठिताः।

त एव तैर्न दुष्येयुः आचरैर्नेतरा जनाः॥

तथा मनुना’प्युक्तम् -

येनास्य पितरो याता येन याताः पितमहाः।

तेन यायात् सतां मार्गं तेन गच्छन्न दुष्यति॥

So , one can follow the देशाचार ।

But , as per the tradition and also scientifically marriage between near / related people is not advisable.

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Personal Website: www.korada.org