AtIndriya Jnanam and Yogipratryksha

[nagarajpaturi]

This topic is being moved from another thread on अमुकशब्दस्य साधुत्वविषयः since it is a new topic.

 

Vidwan NR Joshi posted as follows:

 

May 27, 2015

 

Prof S. Korada, Saadara PraNaama!

 

 SUBJECT-AtIndriya Jnanam and Yogipratryksha reffered to in your posting. assume that Dras't'aa Rishis who saw (or heard Vedas) were also endowed with AtIndriya Jnanam and Yogipratryksha. In Vedas there is mundane information. Is it necessary to have Yogipratyaksha capacity to refer to countries of the world included in Vedas. Rigveda has name of Devapi from Mahabharata. Atharvdas has mantra on Takman (Maleria). The mantra says let Takman go west to Vaahlikas Gaandaaras and Mahavris'as and east Angadesha. These are the names of the countries. What the objective knowledge only accessible through Yogipratyaksha has to do with countries mantioned in Mahabharata? A girl from Kirata tribe (Himalayas) knew Vanaspati that could cure patient of Maleria. No role of Atharva mantra in this cure . That Maleria was killing people of India from Vedic times to this day. And those sages who saved Vedas word by word and kept Atharveda mantras intact--it did not work. People from a village in India near Himalayan boundary were suffering from Maleria. Briitish governer of that area saw the situation and he drained all accumulating waters of that place. Maleria stopped and people of the village got Mukti from the killing Maleria. So they raised the statue of the governer in the village and talk in very respectful manner about him this. Atharva Veda mantras are available from thousands of years and India had Sages with Yogi Pratyaksha from thousands of years. But they could not stop killing of British soldiers by Maleria. The discovery of drug Quinine stpped it-not Atharva veda mantra. Sobari KaaNva in ancient India was complaing about mice who were eating   his oblation dravya of fire ritual . British were distributing cages to Indian population to catch mice. Thousands of mice from Vietnam were killed by French soldiers during their stay in Vietnam. So what is the use of Yogipratyaksha and their compositions. If you say chanting those composition make people free and they get Mukti from this Maayaa, then no further question

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Dr. Joshi,

 

Prof. Korada's words were:

 

अदृष्टम् - another प्रमाणम् has to be accepted - it is just like our प्रत्यक्षम् and the ऋषिs , who are above रजस् and तमस् have such अतीन्द्रियज्ञानम् (योगिप्रत्यक्षम्) --

 

आविर्भूतप्रकाशानाम् अनुपप्लुतचेतसाम् ।

अतीतानागतज्ञानं प्रत्यक्षान्न विशिष्यते॥ 37

Finally the logician is not a match to ऋषिs , who have योगिदृष्टि --

अतीन्द्रियान् असंवेद्यान् पश्यन्त्यार्षेण चक्षुषा ।

ये भावान् , वचनं तेषां नानुमानेन बाध्यते ॥  38

 

In the above words, there is no mention of or reference to the magical efficacy of Vedamantras for the purpose of curing diseases etc.

 

Coming to your --

 

"In Vedas there is mundane information. Is it necessary to have Yogipratyaksha capacity to refer to countries of the world included in Vedas."  ,

 

let me tell you that all expressions all over the world believed to be emanating from a supernatural experience (spirit possessions, spirit callings, words of psychics etc.) do contain words referring to real world entities. Is the believed supernatural experience in all these cases required to include references to the real world entities? What else is natural or logical to happen? Should the expressions from the persons believed to be coming from a supernatural experience be totally some unintelligible words without any reference to any real world entities?

 

In what way is this question related to the magical efficacy of such expressions?

 

More importantly none of these 'healing' or 'real world entities' are related to the issue of atIndriya and yogipratyaksha as pramANa (source of knowledge) discussed by Prof. Korada.

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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः 

Vidvan N R Joshi  has had the following questions --

1. those sages who saved Vedas word by word and kept Atharveda mantras intact--it did not work.

2.So what is the use of Yogipratyaksha and their compositions. 

3.If you say chanting those composition make people free and they get Mukti from this Maayaa, then no further question

------

1. those sages who saved Vedas word by word and kept Atharveda mantras intact--it did not work.

This question was there hundreds of years ago . Before going to मीमांसा न्याय , ज्योतिषम् , अयुर्वेद , योग etc. let me first give the  fundamentals --

जन्मान्तरकृतं  पापं व्याधिरूपेण बाधते ।

तच्छान्तिः औषधैः दानैः जपहोमसुरार्चनैः॥

It is शान्ति (degree of intensity is reduced) of a disease or something inauspicious rather than निवारणा (cure) -

Any ग्रहमन्त्र or any मन्त्र referred to by you is for शान्ति only -

अवश्यम् अनुभोक्तव्यं कृतं कर्म शुभाशुभम् ।

नाभुक्तं क्षीयते कर्म जन्मकोटिशतैरपि ।

(प्रारब्धकर्म  must be faced by all and for a  मुमुक्षु  the संचितम् can be burnt - ज्ञानाग्निदग्धकर्मा) 

A person is suffering from high fever - ग्रहजप ( followed by तर्पणम् and होम - यथाशक्ति)   is performed - he may move and do his duties - fever is there .

न्यायदर्शनम् --

under 2-1-57 -- तदप्रामाण्यम् - अनृतव्याघातपुनरुक्तदोषेभ्यः (न्यायसूत्रम्)

we take अनृत  only

Vedic sentences are not truthful  and therefore they are not प्रमाणम् ।

न्यायभाष्यम् --

शब्दस्य प्रमाणत्वं न संभवति , कस्मात् ? अनृतदोषात् -- पुत्रकामेष्टौ  " पुत्रकामः पुत्रेष्ट्या यजेत " इति । न इष्टौ संस्थितायां पुत्रजन्म दृश्यते , दृष्टार्थस्य वाक्यस्य अनृतत्वात् अदृष्टार्थमपि वाक्यम् " अग्निहोत्रं जुहुयात् स्वर्गकामः " इत्यादि अनृतमितिज्ञायते ।

one who wants a son should perform पुत्रकामेष्टि says वेद  --  someone did it but he did not have a son - so वेदवाक्यानि are untruthful . When such sentences of दृष्टार्थ  are  false the ones of अदृष्टार्थ  (for स्वर्ग etc) are also false !

न , कर्मकर्तृसाधनवैगुण्यात् 58

भाष्यम् --  

न अनृतदोषः पुत्रकामेष्टौ , कस्मात् कर्मकर्तृसाधनवैगुण्यात् - इष्ट्या पितरौ संयुज्यमानौ पुत्रं जनयत इति । इष्टिः करणम् = साधनम् , पितरौ कर्तारौ , संयोगः कर्म , त्रयाणां गुणयोगात् पुत्रजन्म , वैगुण्यात् विपर्ययः  । इष्ट्याश्रयं तावत्  कर्मवैगुण्यं - समीहाभ्रेषः । कर्तृवैगुण्यम्  - अविद्वान् प्रयोक्ता कपूयचरणश्च । साधनवैगुण्यम् -   हविः असंस्कृतम् उपहतम् इति , मन्त्रा न्यूनाधिकाः स्वरवर्णहीना इति , दक्षिणा दुरागता हीना निन्दिता चेति। अथ उपजनाश्रयम् -- कर्मवैगुण्यं मिथ्यासंप्रयोगः, कर्तृवैगुण्यं योनिव्यापादः , बीजोपघातश्चेति । साधनवैगुण्यम् इष्टौ अभिहितम् ।

That is not correct - why ? because due to defects related to कर्म , कर्ता and साधनम् --  ’ by इष्टि , the father and mother , thru union produce a son' -- if - the साधनम् , i e इष्टि , कर्तारौ पितरौ and the कर्म heir union - are associated with the right and prescribed procedure then there will be पुत्रजन्म , otherwise न  पुत्रजन्म । 

1.इष्टिः -   

कर्मवैगुण्यम् - समीहाभ्रेषः= क्रियाभ्रंशः (procedure not followed)

कर्तृवैगुण्यम्  - कर्ता does not know the procedure(अविद्वान्) , कपूयचरणः = निन्दिताचारवान् (without good conduct) 

साधनवैगुण्यम् - हविः(होमद्रव्यम्) संस्कारहीनम् ; उपहतम् = अपक्वं दधि , भ्रष्टं वा , मन्त्राः without proper स्वर / वर्ण ; दक्षिणा is the amount received from wicked people , or less or अदानयोग्या ।

उपजनः (पुत्रोत्पादनम्) --

कर्मवैगुण्यम् - मिथ्यासंप्रयोगः ( not proper union - the sperm did not enter the womb) . ( 16 days are ऋतुकालः - ’ ऋतौ उपेयात् ’ - गौतमधर्मसूत्रम् , 5-1)

कर्तृवैगुण्यम् -

योनिव्यापादः - योनिदोषः - a defective womb , unfit for गर्भधारणा (अधिकमैथु -नादिना - मैथुनम् once in two days) ; बीजोपघातः = the sperm is defective

Although it is not said by वात्स्यायन , we can bring in ज्योतिषम् and explain -

बुध , शनि and केतु are नपुंसकग्रहाः । Fifth house (from लग्नम्) is पुत्रस्थानम् -  गुरु is पुत्रकारक - we have to check the horoscopes of both wife and husband and find out whether any नपुंसकग्रह is there in पञ्चमस्थानम्  - गुरुदृष्टि or any गुरुसंबन्ध  is there or not to fifth house - most of the time it is very difficult to estimate the बलाबल of planets - should there be नपुंसकग्रहs in the fifth house of both wife and husband  and no गुरुदृष्टि , then they cannot have any children.

So do check whether the अथर्वमन्त्रs are recited by a good विद्वान् and all the procedure is followed perfectly .

शंकराचार्य in अध्यासभाष्यम् says - पश्वादिभिश्च अविशेषात् (पण्डितानाम्) ... प्रतिकूले जाते ततो निवर्तन्ते , अनुकूले च प्रवर्तन्ते - there is no difference between scholars and animals .

Finally अक्षपाद rules --

मन्त्रायुर्वेदप्रामाण्यवच्च तत्प्रामाण्यम् - आप्तप्रामाण्यात् , 2-1-68

मन्त्रs are being used as antidote to the poisons of cobra , scorpion  etc and आयुर्वेद ( सुखदुःखे हिताहिते - सुश्रुतः) are seen yielding results - so  वेद is also to be taken as a reliable authority .

पूर्वमीमांसा --

Under औत्पत्तिकस्तु शब्दस्यार्थेन संबन्धः ... बादरायणस्यानपेक्षत्वात् 1-3-5
there is a discussion --

चित्राक्षेपवादः --

वेद says ' चित्रया यजेत पशुकामः ’ - one desirous of cattle should perform चित्रेष्टि ।

Someone performed the चित्रेष्टि but there were no animals , immediately ?

First one should understand the sentence correctly - it did not say that the effect will be immediate - so at another point of time the result will be there - i e अदृष्टम् (कर्म) is also to be taken into consideration .

2.So what is the use of Yogipratyaksha and their compositions.

We see that thousands of people across the globe are benefited thru योगाभ्यास (fundamentals only ) and आयुर्वेद ( plastic surgery , laparoscopy etc- सुश्रुत) . Is it possible to author such great works by a single person without योगिप्रत्यक्ष ? Okay let there be a matching work now ! य़ोग is not working for IT people because they are trained at midnight  - कर्मवैगुण्यम् ।

The दर्शनानि , वेदाङ्गानि etc are प्रमाणम् because they are authored by ऋषिs who do not have - भ्रम (confusion / illusion), प्रमाद ( अनवधानता = lack of concentration), विप्रलिप्सा (परप्रतारणेच्छा - a tendency to cheat others) etc.

3.If you say chanting those composition make people free and they get Mukti from this Maayaa, then no further question

No , never , I do not discuss Mukti with  everybody - in वेद there are both spiritual and mundane things . 

मुक्ति is only for those who have शमदमादिसंपत्तिः , नित्यानित्यवस्तुविवेकः etc qualifications

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Leaving aside the two issues : 1. Names of real world entities being present in the Vedas and other expressions of supernatural experience, 2. magical efficacy of such expressions

 

which are irrelevant in the context of Prof. Korada's words under reference here,

 

let me focus on the praammaaNya (being source of knowledge) of atIndriya and/or yogipratyaksha:

 

Prof. Korada's primary focus was on Panini's atIndriya and/or yogipratyaksha. So let us begin with that.

 

The wonder, the amazement that Panini created in the minds and hearts of modern linguists is well on record. They used expressions such as Panini antedated modern linguists by millennia. How can such things as 'antedating by millennia' be normal or natural? The only way of explaining that is to use 'well beyond natural', 'far above natural'  so 'supernatural'. atIndriya is the word for such a phenomena only.

 

Prof. Peter Raster of Germany whose name I was quoting in a thread on universals in Panini, while speaking about the idea of composition of Ashtadhyayi as a 'miracle', brought the analogy of Mozart's composition of a huge number of symphonies (around 600 works altogether ) within the small age that he lived. He said that Mozart when asked about how could he compose such big complex compositions in a short span of time, he used to say that he 'saw' the whole composition in his mind. Prof. Raster said that Panini must have 'seen' the whole of Ashtaadhyaayi in a flash. Ability to see that way is what is called as 'yogipratyaksha'

 

It is well documented that the great mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan credited all his mathematical acumen to his family goddess Mahalakshmi of Namakkal.

 

During our own times, we are able to see persons such as Jagadguru Ramabhadracharyaji Maharaj who drafted his entire PhD work in just a 13 days time. If not atIndriya and yogipratyaksha, what can explain such undisputable facts in front of our eyes?

 

I was eyewitness to my father Late Sri Paturi Sitaramanjaneyulu garu's 'seeing' books and copying from them, taking dictations from persons either living hundreds of miles away, or not living any more. ( there were incidents establishing clearly that these 'seen' books and the matter copied were all true; the dictations were all supported by corroborative evidences. )

 

Dr. Joshi brought the 'seeing' /'hearing' the Vedas into discussion in this context.

 

VAkyapadIyam has a very clear description of this 'seeing' /'hearing' .

अविभागाद् विवृत्तानाम् अभिख्या स्वप्नवच् छ्रुतौ 1-173

The word स्वप्नवत् is the most significant and interesting part of this line.

 

Dream was once considered completely meaningless. But during modern period many theories developed establishing the meaningfulness of dreams.

 

The above mentioned Srinivasa Ramanujan too linked his conjectures to dreams.

 

Kekule's discovery of Benzene's ring structure through a dream of a snake biting its own tail is well documented.

 

Is not pratyaksha of dream different from the general pratyaksha ?

 

VakyapadIyam's description of 'seeing/ 'hearing' of the Vedas is that it is dream-like.

 

What is the difference between general dream and this dream-like state? The difference lies in the personality of the person experiencing the dream or dream-like state.  

 

 

 

 

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 12:53 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is well documented that the great mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan credited all his mathematical acumen to his family goddess Mahalakshmi of Namakkal.

 

During our own times, we are able to see persons such as Jagadguru Ramabhadracharyaji Maharaj who drafted his entire PhD work in just a 13 days time. If not atIndriya and yogipratyaksha, what can explain such undisputable facts in front of our eyes?

 

I was eyewitness to my father Late Sri Paturi Sitaramanjaneyulu garu's 'seeing' books and copying from them, taking dictations from persons either living hundreds of miles away, or not living any more. ( there were incidents establishing clearly that these 'seen' books and the matter copied were all true; the dictations were all supported by corroborative evidences. )

 

 

​The above examples may be  examples of Yogipratryksha. How ever, ​

I don't at all subscribe to such views If we bring miracles superstitious beliefs accounts from pious people  whom

​ we​

admire as science its dangerous precedent

​. Science may not have explanation to all phenomena that occurs in this universe a little is known a vast remains unknown and proper and through investigation is needed on rational lines.​ If we cannot find answer based on our current knowledge our current scientific knowledge Scientific knowledge has to improve and science agrees to such a view it its not closed to pious admirers or to blessed few but is open to one and all

​

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>>science agrees to such a view it its not closed to pious admirers or to blessed few but is open to one and all

 

--- Srinivasa Ramanujan's theorems and conjectures are all open to one and all. It is agreed by one and all that the achievement is so much beyond normal that it needs an explanation. His biographers documented his own words crediting it all to Mahalakshmi ammaavar of Namakkal. You have a choice either to agree with that explanation or not.

 

All the supernormal achievements of Jagadguru Ramabhadracharyaji Maharaj are available to be seen by one and all. Such supernormal happenings need an explanation. That it is atIndriya and yogipratyaksha is my explanation.

 

In all science, explanation for a phenomenon is the theory and the phenomenon so explained is the proof of that theory.

 

Of course, the example of my father's experiences is a different story.

 

I shall discuss such phenomena on a different occasion. 

 

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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

There are several geniuses in the world who continuously contribute towards knowledge of mankind all of them don't claim to pious bhaktas or saints I agree Srinivas Ramnujam was a great Mathematician That is because he was genius not because he was a bhakta and some God gave him a boon. If his biographers were bhaktas they spread their own propaganda  I have as you said right to disagree with what if I may call' Hocus Pocus'. I further am of the opinion  such irrational thinking will be against spirit of even our ancient thinkers who had a good scientific outlook. Further as you said we can at later point of time if needed can discuss such phenomena

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Bijoy Misra]

Patanjali calls it siddhi and shows how different siddhis can be attained through yoga.

My thinking has been that the intellectual capability might exponentially increase with

the stillness of the mind and application of the mental energy to the problem.  The mental

energy in principle can be infinite!

I would agree with Dr Ajit that there should exist physical explanations of exceptional capabilities

Whether the creativity has any genetic marker could be explored.  All boldness in thoughts and

intellectual convictions might have yet to be discovered genetic origin.  The science is in infancy
in this research mostly dealing currently with the deficits.

 

.
 

[Venkata Sriram]

Namaste,

That "intellectual capability" is called "ritambharA prajnA" in yogic terminology. 

"tasmin samAhita chittasya yA prajnA jAyatE tasyA ritambharEti samjnA bhavati" and this something very unique in the sense that the yogi gets "extraordinary intuition" unlike the capability acquired through Agama jnAna and anumAna jnAnaM as described in the sUtra:

// shrutAnumAna prajnAbhyAM anya viSayA vishESArthatvAt //

As shri.nagaraj garu said, the yogi develops certain extra-ordinary intelligence and intuition.  Swami Vivekananda studied and mugged up entire volumes of Encyclopedia Britannica in couple of days; Shri.Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni mastered the sAyaNa bhASya of rg-veda in gokarNa within a span of 14 days; shri.ramabhadracharya completed His Ph.D work in 13 days; shri.aurobindo ghosh used to write volumes of verse of "sAvitri" during meditation et. etc.   

All these are the examples of "ritambharA prajnA" only. 

regs,

sriram

[ajit.gargeshwari]

I did not dispute Patanjali or Sutra or Bhashya. I only said Scientific out look is required else it is left to the individuals personal beliefs. Science has not reached there that does not mean such knowledge is impossible it only means that more research is required for rational people to agree. Its best not get into names if I say I can read any 15 volume Encyclopedia with a minute. I visualize it all would any one believe me!! Ok I leave this discussion thread Thank you

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr Sriram,

The prajnA is a tool.  As Patanjali would describe it is the penultimate culmination
of the yogic process.  It would help you gain insight and and "see more."  Krishna

in the Gita is an example.  The physical skills are memory-related and hence need

be manifested, so the word vibhUti. The question is what causes the manifestation.

Through some configuration, different parts of the brain do become extra sharp to
endow people with exceptional skills in numbers, language, music, art, or muscular
work.  We did the first High Resolution Brain Atlas (mouse brain)  at Harvard some
fifteen years ago.  The problems that are being addressed in neuroscience are deficits
and not the exceptions.  Lately autism research is looking into the exceptional behavior. 
The process is at sub-neural level and instruments don't exist to measure.  We may
not know in our lifetime.  Experiments on humans are hard.

Best regards,

BM

--

[sadasivamurty rani]

Regarding Atindriya Jnana and Yogipratyaksha I have something to share in this context. 

Here I would like to present what I learnt in my childhood from my Grand Father Sri Sri Sri Paripurna Prakasananda Bharathi Mahaswami who lived for a span of 105 years.

I was the founder principal of Vijawada Government Ayurvedic College. He wrote authored more than 250 works on Yoga, Vedanta, Ayurveda and Rasa Tantras including a large medical lexicon popular during his times by name SABDA PRASADAM. 

He is used to teach me about Atindriya Janana and Yogaja Pratyaksa (Not Yogi Pratyaksha) very often with different examples. According to him ATINDRIYA JNANA is Knowledge acquired through Extra Sensory perception only and not any knowledge that is acquired through any External Means.  

Then what could be the internal means of such knowledge? It is nothing but MANAS.

How does it function independently? Yes it is capable of functioning independently.

All other five senses - Skin, Eyes, Ears, Tongue and Nose can perceive anything in this world only when the MANAS helps them in such process of perception. In the absence of Manas the sense cannot perceive or acquire any knowledge. It is in our common experience. But in the absence of the activity of these senses Manas can perceive if it is properly trained to perceive. 

In such perception there is direct contact (YOGA - this is not the YOGA of YOGA DARSANA) between the MANAS and the WORLDLY OBJECTS with out any help of the five senses. Since this is possible through the contact of MANAS and OBJECTS it is called YOGAJA PRATYAKSHA. 

In the absence of the five senses the MANAS can have the Tactual, Visual, Auditory, Olfactory and Savory Perceptions. This is not due to any MAHIMA or ANY EXTERNAL INTERFERENCE but it is due proper utility of Well Concentrated and Well Trained Mind.  

Just as we do waste our TIME and WATER in the World we do waste the abilities and energies of our MANAS and BUDDHI. Hence we are not capable of utilize their full power. To utilize their full powers we have to first get control over our breathing. Through Pranayama Techniques we can acquire such powers. 

This was the gist of the lessons I had in my childhood from my Grand Father who was a great teacher too.

I think this may be useful in the present context.

Regards,  

Dr. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com>
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 2 June 2015 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} AtIndriya Jnanam and Yogipratryksha

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Swami Vivekananda coined a beautiful term 'scientific superstition' to refer to blind opposition from scientism towards phenomena that science can not explain.

 

In the preface to his Raja Yoga, it is said,

"

Since the dawn of history, various extraordinary phenomena have been recorded as happening amongst human beings. Witnesses are not wanting in modern times to attest to the fact of such events, even in societies living under the full blaze of modern science. The vast mass of such evidence is unreliable, as coming from ignorant, superstitious, or fraudulent persons. In many instances the so - called miracles are imitations. But what do they imitate? It is not the sign of a candid and scientific mind to throw overboard anything without proper investigation. Surface scientists, unable to explain the various extraordinary mental phenomena, strive to ignore their very existence. They are, therefore, more culpable than those who think that their prayers are answered by a being, or beings, above the clouds, or than those who believe that their petitions will make such beings change the course of the universe. The latter have the excuse of ignorance, or at least of a defective system of education, which has taught them dependence upon such beings, a dependence which has become a part of their degenerate nature. The former have no such excuse.

" (emphases mine)

 

In a lecture titled "Real nature of Man", included in the book Jnana Yoga he says,

 

"

I am sorry to say, behind the fine, polished phrases of the moderns is arrant trash. So, we need not throw a thing overboard because it is clothed in mythology, because it does not fit in with the notions of Mr. So-and-so and Mrs. So-and-so of modern times. If people should laugh at religion because most religions declare that men must believe in mythologies taught by such and such a prophet, they ought to laugh more at these moderns. In modern times, if a man quotes a Moses or a Buddha or a Christ, he is laughed at; but let him give the name of a Huxley, a Tyndall, or a Darwin, and it is swallowed without salt. "Huxley has said it", that is enough for many. We are free from superstitions indeed! That was a religious superstition, and this is a scientific superstition; only, in and through that superstition came life-giving ideas of spirituality; in and through this modern superstition come lust and greed. That superstition was worship of God, and this superstition is worship of filthy lucre, of fame and power. That is the difference.

" (emphases mine)

 

 

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Thanks for selective quoting Swami Vivekananda he has also talked more about science and the need to cleanse religion from superstitious beliefs and never advocated any yogipratyaksha. He was great advocate of rationality.

Quoting from your own extract

"It is not the sign of a candid and scientific mind to throw overboard anything without proper investigation. Surface scientists, unable to explain the various extraordinary mental phenomena, strive to ignore their very existence."

This is the need of the hour than to say "I believe in bhaktas tales and stories about yogipratyaksha"

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr Murty,

First thing, we have to distinguish between the mind and the senses.  Mind perceives

and any manifestation has to be done through the senses.  The senses bring physicality.

Mind can "smell" but that's internal, any physical manifestation needs the body.

There is no reason that mind is restricted to the five senses as we know in this world.

Mind is much larger and pervades beyond.  Any special manifestation here has a decay

involved, mind has no boundaries, no decay.

As far I can analyze mind can be an augment to sharpen the local senses and the intellect.

One can gain strength, sharpen intellect or achieve extraordinary powers.  But these

powers do not enable anyone to "produce objects".  What science may be able to show

at a later time how one gets extraordinary powers.

Best regards,

BM

[Nagaraj Paturi]

This is the need of the hour than to say "I believe in bhaktas tales and stories about yogipratyaksha"

 

Thanks for agreeing with this need of the hour  not  'to throw overboard anything without proper investigation'  and  not to 'ignore their very existence',  'unable to explain the various extraordinary mental phenomena'  which is the one I too have been emphasizing throughout this thread.

 

Nowhere in the thread did I say, "I believe in bhaktas tales and stories about yogipratyaksha".

Even Srinivasa Ramanujan's biographer from whom I was quoting was not a Bhakta. The book is

 

 "

Kanigel, Robert (1991). The Man Who Knew Infinity: a Life of the Genius Ramanujan. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons. ISBN 0-684-19259-4.

"

If you have an aversion for the word 'yogipratyaksha' , on the basis of the meaning in which you consider it is being used, please let me clarify. 

I think it is one of these extraordinary mental phenomena that is being called  'Yogipratyaksha'. That is not my word. That was used in a previous post. I found it used in many older threads on BVP. I didn't think the word was used in the sense of some God giving his appearance in front of a Yogi. I understood that to have been used in the sense of the extraordinary mental phenomena being experienced as vividly as some visual or sound experienced in waking/conscious state.

 

In the biographies of Swami Vivekannda, it is said, "When the English educated Swami Vivekananda, in search of Truth, asked the humble Bengal villager Sri Ramakrishna, "Have you seen God?" the latter replied, "Yes. I see him just as I see you here, only in a much more intense way." These words impressed Swami Vivekananda." 

 

Swami Vivekananda was wise enough to understand these words in their true sense, in the sense of the extraordinary mental phenomena being experienced as vividly as some visual or sound experienced in waking/conscious state.  

 

That he understands such words in such a sense is evident from the following words from his preface to Rajayoga:

 

"

For thousands of years such phenomena have been studied, investigated, and generalised, the whole ground of the religious faculties of man has been analysed, and the practical result is the science of Raja-Yoga. Raja-Yoga does not, after the unpardonable manner of some modern scientists, deny the existence of facts which are difficult to explain; on the other hand, it gently yet in no uncertain terms tells the superstitious that miracles, and answers to prayers, and powers of faith, though true as facts, are not rendered comprehensible through the superstitious explanation of attributing them to the agency of a being, or beings, above the clouds. It declares that each man is only a conduit for the infinite ocean of knowledge and power that lies behind mankind. It teaches that desires and wants are in man, that the power of supply is also in man; and that wherever and whenever a desire, a want, a prayer has been fulfilled, it was out of this infinite magazine that the supply came, and not from any supernatural being. The idea of supernatural beings may rouse to a certain extent the power of action in man, but it also brings spiritual decay. It brings dependence; it brings fear; it brings superstition. It degenerates into a horrible belief in the natural weakness of man. There is no supernatural, says the Yogi, but there are in nature gross manifestations and subtle manifestations. The subtle are the causes, the gross the effects. The gross can be easily perceived by the senses; not so the subtle. The practice of Raja - yoga will lead to the acquisition of the more subtle perceptions.

"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Whats your great piece of investigation that you have showed apart from testimony of people who believe in extraordinary things Clairvoyance, Levitation Astral Travel yogi pratykasha Siddhis rebirth all fall into the same category which cannot be explained on Science as we know today. Human mind is not completely understood so also the power of myth making. If one cannot demonstrate rationally or accept rationality how can progress be achieved? This like a person trying to prove to the Church the earth is round and revolves round the Sun during middle ages.

To this remark " I think it is one of these extraordinary mental phenomena that is being called  'Yogipratyaksha'. That is not my word. That was used in a previous post. I found it used in many older threads on BVP. I didn't think the word was used in the sense of some God giving his appearance in front of a Yogi. I understood that to have been used in the sense of the extraordinary mental phenomena being experienced as vividly as some visual or sound experienced in waking/conscious state."

I agree there is no disagreement.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>>Whats your great piece of investigation that you have showed apart from testimony of people who believe in extraordinary things Clairvoyance, Levitation Astral Travel yogi pratykasha Siddhis rebirth all fall into the same category which cannot be explained on Science as we know today.

 

------ Whats your great piece of investigation?

 

What is this?

 

Did I ever at any point say I conducted an investigation or I was quoting investigation?

 

I was only citing examples of what in Swami Vivekananda's words 'is not to be thrown overboard without proper investigation', in response to a post which was doing exactly this, 'throwing things overboard without proper investigation'. I was appealing not to do that.

 

I was not the first one or the only one to question the premises of scientism. Swami Vivekananda was one of the early Indians to do that. All over the world there are many.

 

I understand your anxiety not to encourage superstitious thinking. Please rest assured, I would be the last one to encourage the same. But at the same time it is high time people are exposed to reasonable and rational thoughts alternative to scientism.  

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Alternate thoughts within the bounds of rationality is also science there is no dispute. Believing verbal testimony of people and quoting that as an example that such phenomena does exist is not science unless that can be independently verified and can be experience of all. Yogipratayaksha fall in to the category of pramana which science cannot explain as science we know of today

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Which one , except that of my father which was my own testimony and I set aside for a separate discussion in a later post is in the form of ' Believing verbal testimony of people and quoting that as an example that such phenomena does exist ' ? 

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

The other 2 examples which I will keep aside for a separate discussion Thank you for exchanging your views patiently. We both are on the same page on several points Thanks again for your time

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[sadasivamurty rani]

Dear Bijoy Misra ji!

I request you to once again read my previous mail sentence to sentence before I proceed to answer your mail over my thoughts.

Warm Regards, 

Dr. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com>
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, 3 June 2015 7:07 AM

[Bijoy Misra]

Manifestation in my view is an unsolved process.

That is where I have difficulty with "yogaja" as a phrase.

The mind can comprehend and have much deeper insight.

But physicality is a different matter, in my opinion.

The mind perceives.  Sensing is an interaction.  The

interaction is physical.  Physicality needs boundaries etc.

We are doing a paper rasasāṅkhya on such topics in

WSC. I will send you a draft.  It is just a view.