Magnesium L-threonate, again
whoisbambam
human? 400mg bid?
Can anybody understand the study, and do you think it can reasonably
transfer to humans for cognitive enhancement, and if so, do you think
it is the best nootropic (if not, what do you think is?)?
Does anybody know where we can buy JUST magnesium l-threonate
(sabresciences sells 200mg/teaspoon mixed with 2500mg inositol for
39.00 for 60doses/30days plus 10.00 s+h), preferrably at a reasonable
cost?
Here is the info I was able to collect, and I already posted the
sabresciences lead:
I have been trying to find magnesium L-threonate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_L-threonate
There was a study indicating possible nootropic effect:
http://basicmed.med.ncku.edu.tw/admin/up_img/990514-1.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100222162011.htm
I believe there is a manufacturer:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/294858768/Magnesium_L_threonate.html
http://www.orchid-chemical.com/index.asp
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080248137
whoisbambam
Magnesium-L-threonate (604 mg/kg/day) was administered via drinking
water (50 mg/kg/day elemental Mg2+). The average drinking water per
day was determined (~30 ml/day), and the dose was dissolved in the
daily drinking amount.
Should we use 'ideal' body weight to calculate the dosage?
So, if we weigh 75kg (165lbs), we should consume
75kg*604mg=45,300mg/day??
45 grams a day??
That seems AWFULLY high.
I wouldnt think that anybody should consume more than 2GM a day, every
day (IV magnesium sulfate is quite potent)
Oinchack'Olp
If for the example the recommended daily dose for Vitamin E is 10mg,
that of course refers to a person of average weight. A fatman weighing
300 pounds needs more than 10mg of vitamin E per day.
> So, if we weigh 75kg (165lbs), we should consume
> 75kg*604mg=45,300mg/day??
> 45 grams a day??
> That seems AWFULLY high.
dose of table salt is merely 3g - 20g, depending on how warm it is /
how much the person is sweating.
I doubt that it is healthy to take such high doses of magn.L threonate.
Jonathan Toomim
http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/18333-converting-dosages-from-animal-studies/
http://web.ncifcrf.gov/rtp/lasp/intra/acuc/fred/guidelines/ACUC42EquivSurfAreaDosageConversion.pdf
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whoisbambam
So........
We need the rat value.
We need the adult human value.
We need the dose the rats were given.
We need a human weight, in kg.
rat value = 6
adult human value = 37
rat dose: 604mg/kg/day
human weight: 70kg (165lbs)
604mg/kg/day * 6/37 = 97.95
97.95 X 70kg = 6856
So, about 7Grams a day?
Still seems high.
On Jan 26, 5:04 pm, Jonathan Toomim <jtoo...@jtoomim.org> wrote:
> mg/kg is a misleading figure, and doesn't translate directly to humans.
>
Aman Idle
whoisbambam
It would be interesting to know of 'safe' pharmacy suppliers that do
not require signature mail.
but if he does answer this question, i hope he will discuss dosage,
time off, pros and cons, and what foods to avoid. Chocolate?
On Jan 26, 6:42 pm, Aman Idle <aman.i...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for asking a different questio but...Jonathan do you know of any
> quality supplier that ships deprenyl over to the uk?
>
> > Jonathan, thank you.
> > So........
> > We need the rat value.
> > We need the adult human value.
> > We need the dose the rats were given.
> > We need a human weight, in kg.
>
> > rat value = 6
> > adult human value = 37
> > rat dose: 604mg/kg/day
> > human weight: 70kg (165lbs)
>
> > 604mg/kg/day * 6/37 = 97.95
> > 97.95 X 70kg = 6856
>
> > So, about 7Grams a day?
>
> > Still seems high.
>
> > On Jan 26, 5:04 pm, Jonathan Toomim <jtoo...@jtoomim.org> wrote:
> > > mg/kg is a misleading figure, and doesn't translate directly to humans.
>
> > ..
> > > On Jan 26, 2011, at 9:16 AM, whoisbambam wrote:
>
> > > > When I read the article, I found this:
> > > > Magnesium-L-threonate (604 mg/kg/day) was administered via drinking
> > > > water (50 mg/kg/day elemental Mg2+). The average drinking water per
> > > > day was determined (~30 ml/day), and the dose was dissolved in the
> > > > daily drinking amount.
>
> > > > Should we use 'ideal' body weight to calculate the dosage?
>
> > > > So, if we weigh 75kg (165lbs), we should consume
> > > > 75kg*604mg=45,300mg/day??
>
> > > > 45 grams a day??
>
> > > > That seems AWFULLY high.
>
> > > > I wouldnt think that anybody should consume more than 2GM a day, every
> > > > day (IV magnesium sulfate is quite potent)
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > > Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > For more options, visit this group athttp://
> > groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en
> > > > .
>
> > --
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> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
ailambris
whoisbambam
day..........
Jonathan Toomim
of 284.5, of which 24.3 is Mg, so it's only 560 mg of elemental
magnesium. Still, that sounds like a lot, especially since it's
supposed to have higher bioavailability than other forms of Mg. The
NIH recommended maximum for Mg is 350 mg/day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_citrate#Dosage
).
I'm curious whether the innovation in the Slutsky et al study was just
the high dosage (combined with the higher bioavailability), rather
than the use of the L-threonate salt itself. I couldn't find a mention
of the dosage they used with the magnesium citrate and
I took a look through the Slutsky et al (2010) Neuron paper again, and
I noticed something pretty interesting. Specifically, Figure 4. It
shows that there's a difference between the effects of chronic and
acute supplementation, and that it's the chronic effects that are the
most interesting.
Background: One of the many roles of Mg++ in the brain is as a "plug"
for the NMDA glutamate receptor (NMDAR). The NMDAR is a glutamate-
gated ion channel, which means that it allows certain ions to pass
through it when glutamate is present. However, the plug activity of Mg+
+ makes the NMDAR different from other glutamate-gated ion channel,
since the NMDAR needs to be both opened by glutamate and unplugged by
Mg++ in order to function. Mg++ will plug NMDARs when a neuron is at
its resting state (membrane voltage around -70 mV). This happens
because the electrical field pushes the Mg++ ions into the NMDAR pore,
but they're too big to pass through. As the neuron gets excited
(membrane voltage around -55 mV), the force pushing the Mg++ ions into
the pore decreases, and the pore gets unclogged, allowing other ions,
such as Ca++, to pass through (at least, if glutamate is also
present). Thus, the NMDAR allows to detect coïncidences—i.e. when
glutamate is released at a synapse onto a neuron that is already
excited—and provides a mechanism for neurons to detect correlations
between its inputs.
Since Mg++ plugs NMDARs only at resting (unexcited) membrane
potentials, one would expect a short-term increase in Mg++
concentrations to reduce the ion current that can flow through them
while the neuron is at rest, but not when it's excited. This is what
Slutsky found. The interesting thing is what happens with sustained,
long-term (chronic) increases in Mg++. Living things "like" to
maintain homeostasis, and have responses to maintain near-constant
function in changing environments. For the NMDAR, it appears that rat
neurons try to maintain a constant resting-state NMDAR conductivity;
since increasing Mg++ reduces this conductivity, the cells respond by
producing more NMDARs until the resting-state conductivity is
normalized. Since Mg++ has no effect on NMDAR conductivity when the
cell is excited, this means that the NMDARs will produce a greater ion
current when they're excited.
TL;DR:
Acute increase in Mg++: large decrease in NMDAR noise, small decrease
in NMDAR signal.
Chronic increase in Mg++: no change in NMDAR noise, moderate increase
in NMDAR signal.
In other words, the desired effect appears to be achieved by fooling
the brain's attempt at adaptation. I think that's pretty cool.
Jonathan
whoisbambam
Here is what orchid-chemical sent me........i hate to see what 1kg is
going to cost:
It’s very nice receiving the inquiry of magnesium L-threonate!
What quantity do you need ?
The sales volume of this product is not big, we produce several
hundreds of it, then sale it .
Our min quantity for sale could be 1kg. If your quantity is big, we
would send it to you by sea.
There is the COA in the attachment, pls kind check it!
Regular packing : 25kg per drum
Payment: T/T (Telegraphic Transfer) advance, if sum is big, it could
be L/C sight.
We wish we could get your reply soon, then quote it for you
accordingly.
We would have our Chinese spring festival from the next week, and come
back our office on Feb.11.
Looking forward to your kind reply.
Best regards,
Jessie zhou
On Jan 26, 10:47 am, whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anybody know what an effective dosing regimen would be in a
> human? 400mg bid?
>
> Can anybody understand the study, and do you think it can reasonably
> transfer to humans for cognitive enhancement, and if so, do you think
> it is the best nootropic (if not, what do you think is?)?
>
> Does anybody know where we can buy JUST magnesium l-threonate
> (sabresciences sells 200mg/teaspoon mixed with 2500mg inositol for
> 39.00 for 60doses/30days plus 10.00 s+h), preferrably at a reasonable
> cost?
>
> Here is the info I was able to collect, and I already posted the
> sabresciences lead:
>
> I have been trying to find magnesium L-threonate:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_L-threonate
>
whoisbambam
:)
whoisbambam
>
> > I believe there is a manufacturer:http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/294858768/Magnesium_L_threonate.htm...
Jonathan Toomim
to any of my emails for a month.
I haven't actually noticed much or any effects of selegiline itself.
Maybe a little bit of insomnia if I take it at night, but that could
be due to the amphetamine metabolites of selegiline. I mostly use it
nowadays as an adjunct for oral phenylethylamine.
Dosage: 5 mg twice daily, preferably with food.
Selegiline is a moderately selective MAOB inhibitor. At higher
concentrations it also inhibits MAOA. At 10 mg/day, it doesn't usually
provide enough MAOA inhibition to cause problems with dietary
tyramine, although it might for women on oral contraceptives (which
slow the catabolism of selegiline). You shouldn't have to avoid any
foods because of tyramine.
There isn't enough phenylethylamine in chocolate to cause any
significant effects, even with MAOB inhibition.
Sorry, don't have time to say more.
J
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whoisbambam
Yeah, i dont think deprenyl is a good idea.
For select ppl, probly the best thing since sliced bread........
but for the general population as a nootropic--probly a bad idea.
dont know a think about phenylethylamine as a nootropic.
investigating
thanks again.
whoisbambam
They only want $265.00 for a kilogram sent to my door (99% min assay)
(they already sent me an invoice, some sort of certificate of analysis
too.
I think my bank will charge 35.00 to send.
But there may be a bank fee on their side--i am trying to figure that
part out, because they want the 265.00 USD free and clear.
If I use 2grams a day, that would last about 500 days, at $300.00
Jonathan Toomim
On Jan 26, 2011, at 7:40 PM, whoisbambam wrote:
> They only want $265.00 for a kilogram sent to my door (99% min assay)
> (they already sent me an invoice, some sort of certificate of analysis
> too.
I'd be willing to pay 20% of that for 10% of that if you feel like
redistributing.
>> dont know a think about phenylethylamine as a nootropic.
Who said I was using it as a nootropic? I use it to combat seasonal
depression.
http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/2/168
http://jtoomim.org/168.pdf
Pontus Granström
Try Charles Poliquin's Zen Mag. You can buy it from Personal Trainers that sell Poliquin supplements in the UK. Alternatively you can buy it from his USA Store. http://us.cpoliquin.com/product_p/zenmagpx.htm
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/brain-training/-/FL6PjR1MwLsJ.
Pontus Granström
Yes, it still seems high. Magnesium L-threonate has a molecular weight of 284.5, of which 24.3 is Mg, so it's only 560 mg of elemental magnesium. Still, that sounds like a lot, especially since it's supposed to have higher bioavailability than other forms of Mg. The NIH recommended maximum for Mg is 350 mg/day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_citrate#Dosage).
I'm curious whether the innovation in the Slutsky et al study was just the high dosage (combined with the higher bioavailability), rather than the use of the L-threonate salt itself. I couldn't find a mention of the dosage they used with the magnesium citrate and
I took a look through the Slutsky et al (2010) Neuron paper again, and I noticed something pretty interesting. Specifically, Figure 4. It shows that there's a difference between the effects of chronic and acute supplementation, and that it's the chronic effects that are the most interesting.
Background: One of the many roles of Mg++ in the brain is as a "plug" for the NMDA glutamate receptor (NMDAR). The NMDAR is a glutamate-gated ion channel, which means that it allows certain ions to pass through it when glutamate is present. However, the plug activity of Mg++ makes the NMDAR different from other glutamate-gated ion channel, since the NMDAR needs to be both opened by glutamate and unplugged by Mg++ in order to function. Mg++ will plug NMDARs when a neuron is at its resting state (membrane voltage around -70 mV). This happens because the electrical field pushes the Mg++ ions into the NMDAR pore, but they're too big to pass through. As the neuron gets excited (membrane voltage around -55 mV), the force pushing the Mg++ ions into the pore decreases, and the pore gets unclogged, allowing other ions, such as Ca++, to pass through (at least, if glutamate is also present). Thus, the NMDAR allows to detect coïncidences—i.e. when glutamate is released at a synapse onto a neuron that is already excited—and provides a mechanism for neurons to detect correlations between its inputs.
Since Mg++ plugs NMDARs only at resting (unexcited) membrane potentials, one would expect a short-term increase in Mg++ concentrations to reduce the ion current that can flow through them while the neuron is at rest, but not when it's excited. This is what Slutsky found. The interesting thing is what happens with sustained, long-term (chronic) increases in Mg++. Living things "like" to maintain homeostasis, and have responses to maintain near-constant function in changing environments. For the NMDAR, it appears that rat neurons try to maintain a constant resting-state NMDAR conductivity; since increasing Mg++ reduces this conductivity, the cells respond by producing more NMDARs until the resting-state conductivity is normalized. Since Mg++ has no effect on NMDAR conductivity when the cell is excited, this means that the NMDARs will produce a greater ion current when they're excited.
TL;DR:
Acute increase in Mg++: large decrease in NMDAR noise, small decrease in NMDAR signal.
Chronic increase in Mg++: no change in NMDAR noise, moderate increase in NMDAR signal.
In other words, the desired effect appears to be achieved by fooling the brain's attempt at adaptation. I think that's pretty cool.
Jonathan
On Jan 26, 2011, at 3:58 PM, whoisbambam wrote:
Jonathan, thank you.
So........
We need the rat value.
We need the adult human value.
We need the dose the rats were given.
We need a human weight, in kg.
rat value = 6
adult human value = 37
rat dose: 604mg/kg/day
human weight: 70kg (165lbs)
604mg/kg/day * 6/37 = 97.95
97.95 X 70kg = 6856
So, about 7Grams a day?
Still seems high.