The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

[Dave Williams]

Hi

When I first read the following article I was Appalled! However, the proposed system seeks to tackle many of the barriers faced by braille. Could be interesting to have a constructive debate about the value of this and other braille alternatives?


https://www.fastcodesign.com/90136975/the-complicated-quest-to-redesign-braille




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[Steve Nutt]

Hi,

That'll go down well with the old timers who already know Braille. Look at all the whinging about UEB? <Smile>.

All the best

Steve

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[Dave Williams]

Steve

ELIA Frames is intended as a tactile reading system for the many blind people who know print but find braille difficult to learn. My understanding of the article is that it is not intended for those of us who are already comfortable using braille.

Does it have any value? Should older people withb acquired blindness be encouraged to try alternatives? What can we do to better promote braille? Is there anything we can do to make braille easier to learn?

Dave W


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[Steve Nutt]

Hi Dave,

I think UEB goes some way towards that, that's why I've always been for it. But I don't think learning a tactile method of reading is ever going to be really easy, for those who have gone blind later in life especially. Before you can learn it, you have to accept and embrace it, and I think that's the biggest barrier, not that people can't learn it, but they tend to be in denial when they first go blind.

Also, how big are the books going to be with this new system? How easy to translate?

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[Jackie Brown]

Personally my stance is to stop reinventing the wheel. We have a system in place that has served many blind people for years. The powers that be have modified its rules already, something I don't personally like, but that's just my own view. I'm not sure we need something else to make it easier for people to learn. Does it happen in print?

Kind regards,

Jackie Brown
Email: Jackiean...@gmail.com
Check out my website: www.thebrownsplace.info
Follow me on Twitter: @thebrownsplace
Skype name: thejackmate

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[Dave Williams]

My read of the article and website, it sounds like the proposal is escentially a tactile font that can be resized depending on the requirements of the reader. Sounds like it would take up more space, so in the absence of contractions it is probably bulky. Obviously it doesn't replace braille. And that's not what it's for. But is there a need for a braille alternative? Or should we just insist that everyone learns braille and be done with it?

Dave


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[Steve Nutt]

Hi,

I think the question is, do we need a third alternative? They tried this with Moon, didn't they?

Look where that got us.

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[Jackie Brown]

I agree, we don't need something else to replace Braille, people either learn it and embrace all the challenges, or forget about it. I think it's as much about attitude as anything else.

Kind regards,

Jackie Brown
Email: Jackiean...@gmail.com
Check out my website: www.thebrownsplace.info
Follow me on Twitter: @thebrownsplace
Skype name: thejackmate

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[Dave Williams]

Jackie, I think we all can aggree braille works well for those of us who use it. And like you, I spend my life promoting the value of braille. That said, the bigger picture is about literacy and employment. And as we know, the vast majority of blind people never learn braille. So maybe we need to think more radically about ways of tackling that problem. Could a moon-like tactile reading system, loosely based on print, benefit people who can't or won't learn braille?

Dave


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[Jackie Brown]

But Dave, we had Moon, and where is it now? I think there is too much analysis going on. Braille is a fantastic way for people to learn a tactile reading system. Yes I grant you it's much more difficult when you lose your vision later in life with sensitivity issues and the need to keep at it every day to become proficient. But why all the debate about bringing in a new system for people to learn or at least make it easier for them to learn? I think there is too much spin being put on the whole thing. It's there, use it or don't use it. Steve is right in that it is as much about the attitude and facing up to going blind as much as anything else. My husband has RP. He grew up in a sighted world and read print at a local school. But as his sight worsened in his 30s and beyond, he decided to learn Braille just to have as a backup. Now he's great at remembering all the contractions and abbreviations, but his fingers aren't as sensitive as mine, and it takes him ages just to read something basic. By his own admission, this is due to not practising Braille every day, but he likes the language and understands completely why I am passionate about it. So it's as much for me about a person's attitude, they've got to want to learn it, embrace the challenges and accept they might need it. If someone doesn't do that, it won't happen whatever system you put in place. Martin is now virtually blind, and he uses screenreaders because he knows he won't be able to access anything if he doesn't.

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[Dave Williams]

Clearly braille is a proven system that has worked well for millions of blind people for hundreds of years.

However, most blind people are eldily and will never use it.

Do we want to say to those people, sort your attitude out. Embrace the challenge no matter how difficult you find it. You either learn braille or stick with audio only.

Or is there an option of saying, here is an alternative. It's not braille, but at least you maybe able to learn to read again independently. here is an alternative that builds on what you already know and remember from print. Here is an alternative that may eventually bring people to braille.

I'm simply offering an alternative view. I get that any alternatives to braille will rightly be treated with suspicion by those of us who love and trust our braille. But asking people to sort their attitude out isn't solving the literacy challenges faced by our community. This latest idea, ELIA Frames, may not be the answer. But can we at least acknowledge the reasons why someone felt an alternative idea was necessary?

Dave


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[Jackie Brown]

Dave, I thought Moon was an alternative, or have I got that wrong?

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[Steve Nutt]

Hi,

Exactly my point. How many alternatives do we need?

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[Graham Page]

Hi Dave.

Ultimately these things are all pretty much none starters in my opinion. It seems to me that if people don't like reading Braille or can't learn it, then we could produce material using standard print letters in an appropriate font. There is no point in reinventing a whole new system. I imagine documents written using raised print could be written on paper that is heat sensitive which can be then placed under a heat fuser so the drawn letters are raised. Of course documents produced in this way will be prohibitively large so that most people wouldn't want to use them anyway. Braille is bulky enough but documents written in feelable large print will be massive.

I therefore think a lot of these schemes are curious and of academic interest but ultimately they are red herrings since they are just impractical for anything other than signs etc and of course these are often written in raised print anyway.

Regards

Graham

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Sent: 18 October 2017 08:51
To: brail...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

[Graham Page]

One of the biggest problems with learning Braille is that there are very few courses teaching people Braille. In the area of east London where I work I only know of one course and that runs once a week in Dagenham.

If large print is used then people know this already. I can't see the point in creating a separate system based on large print. just use large print instead if you must but no one is going to want to deal with the size of books involved.

Cheers

Graham

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[E M Rogers]

I've not had a chance to read or digest the article fully yet, but
cannot help but comment on this section;

"In Chepaitis’s mind, that’s because braille violates a number of design
principles: It is not scaleable in the same way as a font size, for one,
and braille dots are small and very close together. Importantly, braille
is also a completely different system from the Roman alphabet, and
therefore doesn’t build on the existing knowledge of a large portion of
visually impaired people."

I think he just made up those design 'principles'. "In Chepaitis' mind"
is about the right way to describe it, because they certainly don't
exist anywhere else.

1. Braille dots are scaleable as anything else, we just don't tend to
find it as it has been happily standardised.

2. Being small and close together doesn't violate any design principles
any more than using a size 10 font violates typographic principles.

Ed

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[Graham Page]

If we are going to consider this kind of system at all we must consider people who can't learn braille rather than those who won't learn.

If a system like this is to be used in employment then a system needs to be found of producing refreshable large print from, for example, a computer. This is quite a non trivial task and we must ask if it's worth the effort. It is really up to those who think it is to produce research to back up their case.

Cheers

Graham

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[Graham Page]

There is certainly a good case for large print to be used in some situations such as on signs, package labelling, product identification etc.

Whole books though are surely unrealistic.

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[Jackie Brown]

Hi Ed

I like your thinking, I agree.

Kind regards,

Jackie Brown
Email: Jackiean...@gmail.com
Check out my website: www.thebrownsplace.info
Follow me on Twitter: @thebrownsplace
Skype name: thejackmate

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Sent: 18 October 2017 11:39
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Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

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[E M Rogers]

OK after a proper read there are a few interesting points that occurred;

Studies
--------

They talk about extensive comparisons done between Braille, Moon and
ELIA, but the only outcomes they report is that ELIA can be placed
closer together than Braille cells (closer than 3mm? I wonder...) and
can be learnt in a few hours.

The former is uninteresting. The latter is a benefit, but if you compare
it to learning grade one Braille, of which ELIAS is the equivalent, and
which takes less than a week of unintesive training, it is not so
remarkable. And more importantly, we don't get told if its significantly
faster to learn than Moon.

One imagines that if their studies showed faster reading speeds, or
comprehension rate, or any other benefit, it would be mentioned, but it
isn't.

Moon and comparisons with the latin alphabet
--------------------------------------------

They really don't mention anything as to why its better than Moon. The
letters are contained by frames, which would be an advantage over
Braille conceivably, but hardly over Moon.

They also claim it more closely resembles the latin alphabet. Unlike
Moon I wouldn't be able to guess more than three or four characters. In
fact in many cases its a less intuitive comparison than Braille; which
is amusing, as I don't think Braille made any effort to make the letters
recognisable as latin letters. For example; I would say that the Braille
letters F, H, J, K, L, P and X are very familiar to their latin
counterparts.

Practicalities
--------------

Its bad enough trying to get affordable Braille in hard copy and
digital. We all know how long its taken to make even minor progress.
This is because it is mechanically difficult to emboss or refresh a
dense bed of pins. It is far more difficult to do the same with
ELIAS-style vectors.

And their vectors do not appear to have been designed with refreshable
displays in mind, or quick embossing for that matter. There is too much
variance and the different shapes overlap too much, otherwise you could
envisage some kind of segmented display.

If they are to be taken seriously they should launch the new alphabet
once they can digitise it, not afterwards, otherwise the whole gruesome
experience of making embossers and refreshable tactile displays has to
start all over again.

A $3,000 printer isn't sufficient.

Thoughts
--------

Colour me sceptical.

Why not work with Moon, which has similar benefits for those who
struggle with Braille? Why denigrate Braille when you don't demonstrate
that your system is a full replacement?

It would be interesting to see and work with an even more simplified,
and maybe even a bit larger, version of moon, that worked on custom
segmented displays (think pocket calculator screens, where every number
and symbol is made up from something like 15 segments).

This isn't that.

[E M Rogers]

> So maybe we need to think more radically about ways of tackling that
> problem. Could a moon-like tactile reading system, loosely based on
> print, benefit people who can't or won't learn braille?

Dave, you and I should play around with Moon-like fonts on the Canute.
They could span two lines for each character. Steph and I had interest
in Moon-on-Canute in the recent Sight Villages in fact.

In other news; I'm starting to experiment with tactile graphics on the
Canute. Graphs work very well. A candle with a flame comes out well too.
Then I used Perky Duck (Perkins emulator by Duxbury) to create a picture
of a fawn smoking a pipe, holding an umbrella, waving, with a small dog
wearing Wellington boots.... The last one was a bridge too far!

Ed

[Steve Nutt]

Hi,

Now that would be good, if we could import a JpG or GIF file to the Canute and have it render it.

All the best

Steve

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Sent: 18 October 2017 12:25
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Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

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[Jackie Brown]

Good? It would be completely awesome. Bring it on guys, I'd love that!

Kind regards,

Jackie Brown
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[Graham Page]

Hi ed.

I'm puzzled by this concept of a frame. Does this mean that each letter is contained within a rectangular box? How does this help?


Cheers

Graham

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Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

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[E M Rogers]

> I'm puzzled by this concept of a frame. Does this mean that each
> letter is contained within a rectangular box?

Letters A to D are contained by a three-quarters circle with dashes
inside to distinguish between them.

Letters E to N and T to Z are inside squares with odd little tweaks on
the top corners, again with marks inside to distinguish between them.

Letters O to S are inside full circles.

They look very unintuitive to me. However maybe this works better when
embossed.

> How does this help?

From the article it suggests that this is easier than Braille as it
clearly delineates characters. The principle is pretty good as Braille
can be complicated for the new learner. Is that a dot two or a dot five?
I would hazard a guess it has little benefit over Moon letters though,
which are all single stroke and clearly delineated.

Here is the company's description of the letter forms:
http://www.elialife.com/description.html

[E M Rogers]

> Also, can you give us any indication as to the difference between ELIA and
> say Moon?

See description of ELIA characters two emails ago in same thread. I
assume most on the forum have tried Moon. In short; Moon using simple
strokes to show letters, whereas ELIA uses circles, three-quarter
circles and squares with dashes inside at various heights, degrees of
acuteness and length.

> If you get chance have a look at the FAQ.
> http://www.theeliaidea.com/faq/
> Would be good to hear your take on that.

References to Braille
---------------------

In the FAQ they are far more generous to Braille than reported in the
article. Perhaps why Dave had a more sympathetic take on them than the
rest of us, who only read the article!

They point out the benefits of Braille plainly and position ELIA in a
perceived gap left by Braille.

Claims about technical limitations of Braille and Moon
------------------------------------------------------

This bit is on shakier ground, I'd suggest. They claim Braille was
limited by the technology of its time, which is why it was only dots.
However by my analysis these limitations are broadly unchanged today.

Embossing curves was possible then (as Moon proved) and it is possible
now, but has always been and remains easier (ergo cheaper and faster) to
emboss dots.

Inject printers are a recent innovation which makes it easier to print
(rather than emboss) curves. But it works just as well for printing
Braille dots and I don't know any Braille producer who is switching away
from embossing, presumably because of the greater expense or lesser
lifespan.

Two other ways of producing Braille of course;

By hand: Dots remain faster to do by hand as the pressure needed to
emboss makes it slow, and I don't think the human hand has changed much
since the 19th century. However it could be that ELIA is not aimed at
people who write in it much, just read instructional stuff, in which
case this isn't a problem.

On digital displays: as mentioned in previous email, it worries me that
they haven't considered this. I would go so far as to say that since
Louis Braille's day it has become *harder* to create tactile alphabets,
because of the expectation that text be digital, and the absence of
reasonable tactile digital displays (even if you include the Canute and
Orbit).

On to Moon...

They say; "Like ELIA FRAMES, many of the Moon Alphabet letters share
characteristics of the standard alphabet. Like braille, its design was
influenced by what technology was available in the 1800’s and not
necessarily by what symbols are easiest to learn and read. Each Moon
symbol was produced with one of fourteen copper bands that were pressed
into a piece of paper."

We need to see their comparison studies (the results of which are
no-where mentioned that I've found), but you would have thought that the
simplicity would be a good thing. It certainly looks like Moon
characters are more recognisable.

Am I saying Moon too often?
---------------------------

Perhaps its sounds like I'm overly fond of Moon. I'm not, I've never
read more than fragments of it. Unlike with Braille there's no real
reason not to heavily reform Moon, or completely remake it and call it
something different. After all there's precious little literature
available or active users.

But it seems a far more elegant solution to use simple curves that
approximate Latin characters than their frames which, to my mind, fail
to approximate more than a hand full of their Latin counterparts.

It is also a little bit closer to being practical for digital displays,
albeit not much.

Will a new format harm Braille?
-------------------------------

Its a question they ask and answer that it won't. I can't disagree with
them; more tactile reading is better and no-one will switch from Braille
to ELIA unless they're giving up on the former in any case.

In summary
----------

We really need to see their studies and methodology, because their
design decisions seem to make little sense without them!

[E M Rogers]

> In the FAQ there was mention of the Fishburne Alphabet. You heard of that?

No, and its not easy to find information about. Here is the best I got;

I think everyone on the forums will be interested by this short paper [A Brief
History of Tactile Writing Systems for Readers With Blindness and Visual
Impairments](http://www.tsbvi.edu/seehear/spring06/history.htm)

From the image in that paper (ironic how it doesn't have accessible caption
text describing the letters) I would describe it as similar to Braille, but
larger, and using dots for A to F, small vertical dashes for G to L, small
horizontal dashes for M to R and diacritic acutes for S to X. Y and Z are dots
again, because too much logical structure can get you down.

> Can you describe how these systems represent capital letters?

I can't see any reference to capitals for Fishburne or ELIA.

> Could be interesting to get these guys on Skype for a braillists meeting and
> put some of these questions to them. I'll try and make contact.

I agree! Or an interview on BRLCast.

[Graham Page]

Hi ed.

Why not just have raised print letters that you can feel? I am sure many of us are used to reading large letters such as street signs or smaller characters such as the numbers on buttons in a lift or the disk on a table in weatherspoons which is on each table with the number on it. I'm interested in what could be done to make this kind of stuff readable so people can design useful signs. Books definitely look a non starter though. Letters with frames around each letter would obviously take up a lot of space. Are there any examples on the site of what a practical book might look like? How big a document would your gass bill be for example? The bible would take a large host of angels just to carry it I would suggest!

Cheers

Graham

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[E M Rogers]

> Why not just have raised print letters that you can feel?

I suppose because they have come up with something that is faster to
read. But that would position ELIA in the awkward middle ground between
embossed Latin letters, which most recently blind people could read
without any training but will never get fast at, and Braille, which
takes a lot of training but can lead to print-like speeds.

Its a curious spot to occupy.

ELIA: Twice as slow to learn as embossed Latin characters, half as fast
to read as Grade One Braille!

> Are there any examples on the site of what a practical book might look
> like? How big a document would your gass bill be for example?

Not that I saw, but haven't poked around everywhere.

Ed

[Graham Page]

Hi ed.

My other concern is about their tablet. If we can make a tablet that allows people to feel characters or pictures or presumably other shape this will clearly have applications far beyond reading. It does seem pie in the sky to me though.

Cheers

Graham

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[Viris g. Rodríguez]

I think it would be very interesting. I haven't read the article
yet but I suggest that one of the computer braille tables (there
are about 300) should be learned or, perhaps, the UEB code in
order to install one of these tables in the braille devices.
Actually that's what I have done since I got my apex in 2011. The
French computer table is excellent. It has a dot combination for
most of the symbols.
just my thoughts.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Williams <ho...@davewilliams.co.uk
To: brail...@googlegroups.com
Date sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 08:50:49 +0100
Subject: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign
Braille | Co.Design

Hi

When I first read the following article I was Appalled! However,
the proposed system seeks to tackle many of the barriers faced by
braille. Could be interesting to have a constructive debate about
the value of this and other braille alternatives?

https://www.fastcodesign.com/90136975/the-complicated-quest-to-re
design-braille




Sent from my iPhone

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[Chris Westbrook]

Why don't you guys just work on producing a cheaper 40 cell unit with cursor routing buttons. All the cheaper displays coming out are really small. Why not get what we have cheaper before we do the whole full page thing. We've lived without a full page display forever we can wait a few more years until we can actually get what we have cheaper. Way too much theory on this list and not enough practicality. Practicality, people.

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 4:08 AM, Steve Nutt <st...@comproom.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Dave,

I think UEB goes some way towards that, that's why I've always been for it.  But I don't think learning a tactile method of reading is ever going to be really easy, for those who have gone blind later in life especially.  Before you can learn it, you have to accept and embrace it, and I think that's the biggest barrier, not that people can't learn it, but they tend to be in denial when they first go blind.

Also, how big are the books going to be with this new system?  How easy to translate?

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: brail...@googlegroups.com [mailto:braillists@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Williams

Sent: 18 October 2017 09:06
To: brail...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

Steve

ELIA Frames is intended as a tactile reading system for the many blind people who know print but find braille difficult to learn. My understanding of the article is that it is not intended for those of us who are already comfortable using braille.

Does it have any value? Should older people withb acquired blindness be encouraged to try alternatives? What can we do to better promote braille? Is there anything we can do to make braille easier to learn?

Dave W


Sent from my iPhone

> On 18 Oct 2017, at 08:56, Steve Nutt <st...@comproom.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> That'll go down well with the old timers who already know Braille.  Look at all the whinging about UEB? <Smile>.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: brail...@googlegroups.com [mailto:braillists@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Williams
> Sent: 18 October 2017 08:51
> To: brail...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design
>
> Hi
>
> When I first read the following article I was Appalled! However, the proposed system seeks to tackle many of the barriers faced by braille. Could be interesting to have a constructive debate about the value of this and other braille alternatives?
>
>
> https://www.fastcodesign.com/90136975/the-complicated-quest-to-redesign-braille
>
>
>
>
> Sent  from my iPhone
>
> --
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>
>

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[Jackie Brown]

I’m in the camp that can’t wait for Canute to be released proper, multiple lines of Braille is a good thing even if it means the device won’t be as portable.  I’d like one right now!!!! (smile.)

 

As for a new system altogether though, I am very dubious about that, not because I’ve always been blind and am a proficient Braillist, but because I don’t see how it could be practical for longer material such as books.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jackie Brown

Email: Jackiean...@gmail.com

Check out my website: www.thebrownsplace.info

Follow me on Twitter: @thebrownsplace

Skype name: thejackmate

 

From: brail...@googlegroups.com [mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Westbrook
Sent: 18 October 2017 15:20
To: brail...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

 

Why don't you guys just work on producing a cheaper 40 cell unit with cursor routing buttons. All the cheaper displays coming out are really small. Why not get what we have cheaper before we do the whole full page thing. We've lived without a full page display forever we can wait a few more years until we can actually get what we have cheaper. Way too much theory on this list and not enough practicality. Practicality, people.

 

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to braillists+...@googlegroups.com.

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[Laurent Cadet de Fontenay]

Hi!

It sounds to me like the use case for Elia will be quite different to
Braille. I can't imagine, for example, how a system like Elia could
develop the flexibility to work well in the vast aray of fields where
Braille is already well-established.

But that said, it could be a nice to have for newly blinded people who
just need to access the written word on a basic functional level. My
guess is that anybody serious about reading will use it as a
transition (maybe unnecessary), to learning Braille.

It will be interesting to see how it does in the wild. I think that
people who want to should have the space to try to inovate, and maybe
fail and learn from that. The market will decide. We just keep on
making our proven strong case for Braille!

All best
Laurent

On 10/18/17, Jackie Brown <jackiean...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I’m in the camp that can’t wait for Canute to be released proper, multiple
> lines of Braille is a good thing even if it means the device won’t be as
> portable. I’d like one right now!!!! (smile.)
>
>
>
> As for a new system altogether though, I am very dubious about that, not
> because I’ve always been blind and am a proficient Braillist, but because I
> don’t see how it could be practical for longer material such as books.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> Jackie Brown
>

> Email: <mailto:Jackiean...@gmail.com> Jackiean...@gmail.com
>
> Check out my website: <http://www.thebrownsplace.info>

> To: brail...@googlegroups.com <mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com>

> Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille |
> Co.Design
>
> Steve
>
> ELIA Frames is intended as a tactile reading system for the many blind
> people who know print but find braille difficult to learn. My understanding
> of the article is that it is not intended for those of us who are already
> comfortable using braille.
>
> Does it have any value? Should older people withb acquired blindness be
> encouraged to try alternatives? What can we do to better promote braille? Is
> there anything we can do to make braille easier to learn?
>
> Dave W
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 18 Oct 2017, at 08:56, Steve Nutt <st...@comproom.co.uk

>> <mailto:st...@comproom.co.uk> > wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> That'll go down well with the old timers who already know Braille. Look
>> at all the whinging about UEB? <Smile>.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: brail...@googlegroups.com <mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com>
>> [mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com <mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com> ]
>> On Behalf Of Dave Williams
>> Sent: 18 October 2017 08:51
>> To: brail...@googlegroups.com <mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com>
>> Subject: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille |
>> Co.Design
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> When I first read the following article I was Appalled! However, the
>> proposed system seeks to tackle many of the barriers faced by braille.
>> Could be interesting to have a constructive debate about the value of this
>> and other braille alternatives?
>>
>>
>> https://www.fastcodesign.com/90136975/the-complicated-quest-to-redesign-braille
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> --
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>>
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>
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[E M Rogers]

> Why don't you guys just work on producing a cheaper 40 cell unit with
> cursor routing buttons. All the cheaper displays coming out are really
> small.

As reported in my Indian journals, I'm hoping to link the Braillists
with Paul D'Souza, who is working on single line technology that is very
cheap indeed. His could certainly be forty cells with routing buttons.

> Why not get what we have cheaper before we do the whole full page
> thing. We've lived without a full page display forever we can wait a
> few more years until we can actually get what we have cheaper.

When in 2012 the Transforming Braille Group put over $1m into developing
single line technology, I decided to cease development on single line
displays to avoid duplicating effort, and create a multiline display
instead, which has entirely new applications.

That's just me, and what I've been doing with BBT. Happily others are
free to continue pursuing single line technology and are doing so.
D'Souza is just one example. There are at least two other projects in
India alone.

There is also a specific technical reason with the Canute: it is not
significantly more expensive with Canute technology to make nine lines
than one. So why not?

> Way too much theory on this list and not enough practicality.
> Practicality, people.

In this instance, where we're talking about ELIA it is a very
theoretical discussion indeed. Sometimes theory is fun, but in any case
we've not got access to any samples yet, and Dave has already said he
will try and talk to the developers and presumably get samples in the
mix.

If you're referring to Braille development then the Braillists is
extremely practical. We test Canute prototypes all year around.
Currently they are being tested (or fixed, or awaiting return) by
members of the Braillists in Dublin (mk9), Worcester (mk10),
Boston USA (mk11.1), Cincinnati (mk11.2) and the mk12 is on a whistle
stop tour of the UK with Steph Sergeant.

Regards

Ed

[E M Rogers]

It just occurred to me that if these people in ELIA have raised as much
money as they say to promote tactile reading, then we should be taking
them very seriously indeed, as its probably the largest ever investment
in a non-Braille tactile code, so could well set standards. Better to
try understand them, and maybe even run tests of our own with ELIA, in
the hope of helping to improve their chances, or even making changes.

Ed

[David Mann]

Yes, exactly, this is Moon all over again. Moon is bulkier than braille, even with contractions. Moon has been used with children with additional needs, and did have a small elderly following amongst people who thought, or were led to believe, that braille would be too difficult.

But it never flourished.


David Mann
Tel. 028 9260 7894
Mobile: 07766 302496
Twitter @Davidmann1946

-----Original Message-----
From: brail...@googlegroups.com [mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt

Sent: 18 October 2017 09:22
To: brail...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

Hi,

I think the question is, do we need a third alternative? They tried this with Moon, didn't they?

Look where that got us.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: brail...@googlegroups.com [mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Williams
Sent: 18 October 2017 09:20
To: brail...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

My read of the article and website, it sounds like the proposal is escentially a tactile font that can be resized depending on the requirements of the reader. Sounds like it would take up more space, so in the absence of contractions it is probably bulky. Obviously it doesn't replace braille. And that's not what it's for. But is there a need for a braille alternative? Or should we just insist that everyone learns braille and be done with it?

Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On 18 Oct 2017, at 09:08, Steve Nutt <st...@comproom.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I think UEB goes some way towards that, that's why I've always been for it. But I don't think learning a tactile method of reading is ever going to be really easy, for those who have gone blind later in life especially. Before you can learn it, you have to accept and embrace it, and I think that's the biggest barrier, not that people can't learn it, but they tend to be in denial when they first go blind.
>
> Also, how big are the books going to be with this new system? How easy to translate?
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brail...@googlegroups.com [mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Williams
> Sent: 18 October 2017 09:06
> To: brail...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design
>
> Steve
>
> ELIA Frames is intended as a tactile reading system for the many blind people who know print but find braille difficult to learn. My understanding of the article is that it is not intended for those of us who are already comfortable using braille.
>
> Does it have any value? Should older people withb acquired blindness be encouraged to try alternatives? What can we do to better promote braille? Is there anything we can do to make braille easier to learn?
>
> Dave W
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

>> On 18 Oct 2017, at 08:56, Steve Nutt <st...@comproom.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> That'll go down well with the old timers who already know Braille. Look at all the whinging about UEB? <Smile>.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: brail...@googlegroups.com [mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Williams
>> Sent: 18 October 2017 08:51
>> To: brail...@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> When I first read the following article I was Appalled! However, the proposed system seeks to tackle many of the barriers faced by braille. Could be interesting to have a constructive debate about the value of this and other braille alternatives?
>>
>>
>> https://www.fastcodesign.com/90136975/the-complicated-quest-to-redesign-braille
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
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>> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/braillists/539AD86A-9D93-4664-B6BB-29EECF85B504%40davewilliams.co.uk.
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>> If you have any problems posting/replying to the Braillists Forum please email he...@braillists.org with a clear description of the issue and forward on any error messages you may have received.
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>> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/braillists/018401d347e6%24913f6ee0%24b3be4ca0%24%40comproom.co.uk.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
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> If you have any problems posting/replying to the Braillists Forum please email he...@braillists.org with a clear description of the issue and forward on any error messages you may have received.
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> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/braillists/70486018-ABFD-4F83-8B3F-B43C2C9FB979%40davewilliams.co.uk.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
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> If you have any problems posting/replying to the Braillists Forum please email he...@braillists.org with a clear description of the issue and forward on any error messages you may have received.
> ---
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> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/braillists/01a901d347e8%2453deee20%24fb9cca60%24%40comproom.co.uk.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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If you have any problems posting/replying to the Braillists Forum please email he...@braillists.org with a clear description of the issue and forward on any error messages you may have received.
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[David Mann]

Interestingly, I understand that much of the opposition to braille when it was first invented, and had to compete with several other tactile codes, was that it bore no resemblance to print. However, as the 19th century progressed, it won out against its rivals. I'm glad it did.

David Mann
Tel. 028 9260 7894
Mobile: 07766 302496
Twitter @Davidmann1946


-----Original Message-----

From: brail...@googlegroups.com [mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E M Rogers

Sent: 18 October 2017 11:39
To: brail...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

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[Mary Ward]

I've heard of Fishburn alphabet but don't know it. It was a "thing" for a while. I am not sure how useful it really was for labeling, wich seemed to be its primary purpose. But people who had trouble reading Braille often had trouble with that, too.

-----Original Message-----
From: brail...@googlegroups.com [mailto:brail...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E M Rogers
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 7:45 AM
To: Braillists Forum <brail...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Braillists Forum: The Complicated Quest To Redesign Braille | Co.Design

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[Mary Ward]

Sorry I am late to this discussion.

I don't think this Elia is meant to be used in a vast array of fields as Braille is. I taught Braille to newly blinded adults for long enough to conclude that the problems these learners have in learning Braille are not all due to attitudes about blindness. Tactile sensitivity did indeed seem to be a serious problem, but I thought that most of the learning burden came from switching modalities from visual to tactile. People would tell me that their brains "hurt", that they felt physical pain when they worked at it too hard. I believed them.

Maybe this new Elia system will alleviate the difficulties of some of these learners. I would certainly like to see more research, preferably research conducted by people with no skin in the game. The proponents of the system might try to make the results look good, while detractors might skew their results in the opposite direction.

I am concerned that this system might suffer the fate of Moon, which, as far as I know, was never even used on my side of the pond. I am also worried that this system still just doesn't overcome the barriers of trying to teach an elderly adult to switch literacy from the visual to the tactile modality, no matter how scalable the fonts are.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/braillists/CAHnc4UgkA4kJBwtFBmxWuA6cixa9UG8u_3BG-_VO%2BeHz8MnScw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Chris McMillan]

I’ve seen it too, been too busy to post here, sorry.  :)

On Wednesday, 18 October 2017, Dave Williams <ho...@davewilliams.co.uk> wrote:

Hi

When I first read the following article I was Appalled! However, the proposed system seeks to tackle many of the barriers faced by braille. Could be interesting to have a constructive debate about the value of this and other braille alternatives?


https://www.fastcodesign.com/90136975/the-complicated-quest-to-redesign-braille




Sent  from my iPhone

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