ma smuni zo frumu

[Gleki Arxokuna]

i eipei mi fanva ro la'e di'e lo lojbo i pe'i nandu gi'u cumki

lai .krtis.:

http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/frowns.html?m=1

Is this the U.S. American "frown" primarily of a downturned mouth and which

usually means negative emotions? Or is it the British sense of just a 

furrowed brow (forehead), which can mean all sorts of things, including 

negative ones but also (but not limited too): a reaction to pain (possibly 

covered in the Usian sense too, as a grimace), concentration, a questioning

look, a prompting look, or surprise.

My reading is the U.S. sense. It says "frown/grimace"; while both senses 

can encapsulate this meaning, the U.S. sense does so exclusively, making it

a better match. Additionally, mebri could be used for the British sense 

(in lujvo). Now, badri could be used for the U.S. sense, but it may not 

cover all forms of grimacing.

But I am a Usian, so I might be biased.

In any case, how should we say the other sense or specific meanings? 

(Possibly confer: corci).

----

la gleki:

.i coi la lojbab.

As Curtis noted 

the U.S. American "frown" primarily means a downturned mouth and 

usually means negative emotions. 

The British sense is just a furrowed brow (forehead), which can mean all sorts of things, including negative ones but also (but not limited too): a reaction to pain (possibly 

covered in the Usian sense too, as a grimace), concentration, a questioning

look, a prompting look, or surprise.

So what was meant by {frumu} or should we stick to "grimace" reading more, that is any facial expression would do?

----

la lojbab.:

I suspect that grimace would work, since it an alternative to frown in the definition.  Until I looked them up (see below), I would have thought grimace to be a synonym of frown.  But that seems not to be the case.

I don't know the answer to this for sure.

Since the question is one of various meanings in different languages/cultures, it is probably best to look at the source words that were used to make frumu.  mukti scanned the original worksheets when he was last here.  I don't know if he put them online yet.  Actually I think we put the etymology summary file up a while back.  But the original sheets will identify the words we used in word-making that did NOT make it into the final etymology.

Thinking about it, I probably had in mind "frown" as the opposite expression to "smile", which would fit what Curtis called the American version.  But I think that the American definition also includes the furrowed brow as well as the downturned mouth, and could therefore include concentration and disapproval as well as sadness.

Hmm.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/frown

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/grimace

allows you to look at the British and American definitions in comparison.  There is some difference, but I think I would have frumu cover both the American and British meanings of both words.

Broader is better for gismu, especially if we can find a way to make simple lujvo to distinguish between kinds of frumu. drifru for a sad frown; na'efru for a denial/disapproval frown, jurfru and jusfru for the to-me subtle difference between a serious expression and a severe one (subtle in that I couldn't tell you the difference in the facial expressions for each).  So that is what I would propose - that frumu be a kind of basket of non-smiling facial expressions, not necessarily for a negative emotion, with lujvo bringing out the various possible kinds of emotion/attitude being expressed.

[Pierre Abbat]

On Monday, September 26, 2016 3:19:47 PM EST Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> i eipei mi fanva ro la'e di'e lo lojbo i pe'i nandu gi'u cumki
>
> lai .krtis.:
> http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/frowns.html?m=1
>
> Is this the U.S. American "frown" primarily of a downturned mouth and which
> usually means negative emotions? Or is it the British sense of just a
> furrowed brow (forehead), which can mean all sorts of things, including
> negative ones but also (but not limited too): a reaction to pain (possibly
> covered in the Usian sense too, as a grimace), concentration, a questioning
> look, a prompting look, or surprise.
>
> My reading is the U.S. sense. It says "frown/grimace"; while both senses
> can encapsulate this meaning, the U.S. sense does so exclusively, making it
> a better match. Additionally, mebri could be used for the British sense
> (in lujvo). Now, badri could be used for the U.S. sense, but it may not
> cover all forms of grimacing.
>
> But I am a Usian, so I might be biased.
>
> In any case, how should we say the other sense or specific meanings?
> (Possibly confer: corci).

pe'i mi'o pensi .ei lo valsi pe bau lo drata ke krasi bangu ge'u .e lo
vlacitri .i zoi .gy. frown .gy. se krasi zoi .ky. frogna .ky. noi ficymupli
zoi .ky. srogna .ky. noi selsmu zo nazbi .enai zo mebri .abo zo moklu lo
kelgalo .i zoi .ky. srogna .ky. krasi zoi .gy. sron .gy. noi gailge (to mi na
djuno lo du'u makau krasi zoi .my. trwyn .my. noi mraigo toi)

ni'o la .uikivlacukt. vasru lo drata valsi co krasi be zo frumu ku po'u zoi
.sy. fruncir .sy. e zoi .ry. хмурный .ry. e zoi .jy. 愁眉頭 .jy .i na vasru lo
vlavelcki be le jungo .i le spano cu se vlavelcki zoi .gy. pucker, wrinkle
.gy. noi nibyti'i lo du'u srana lo mebri .i le rusko cu se vlavelcki zoi .gy.
gloomy, sullen .gy .i pe'i zoi .ry. хмурить .ry. drani valsi .iku'i se
vlavelcki zoi .gy. frown .gy. sa'u .i la poi rusko .uikivlacukt. na vasru lo
vlavelcki

mu'omi'e .piier.
--
The gostak pelled at the fostin lutt for darfs for her martle plave.
The darfs had smibbed, the lutt was thale, and the pilter had nothing snave.

[Gleki Arxokuna]

i pe'i lo satci smuvelcki cu zmadu lo tarmi be lo valsi lo ka vajni

i pei do finti lo lojbo smuvelcki a lo glico smuvelcki i babo mi'o casnu lo mapti tarmi

i mu'a zoi .ry. хмурый .ry. skicu lo prenu poi simlu lo ka na gleki gi'e ba'e ja'o gasnu lo nu da cinje lo mebri

 

mu'omi'e .piier.

--
The gostak pelled at the fostin lutt for darfs for her martle plave.
The darfs had smibbed, the lutt was thale, and the pilter had nothing snave.

--
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