Doff & Don, Bailout, & Other Non-practical skills...
Barry Stier
There are a number of emergency procedures that will probably never be
needed by most divers.
However, since the diver is in a hostile environment, the potential for
disaster is so great compared
to other activities, that these procedures should be learned.
Such things as doff and don are just one. Swimming with only one
fin, swimming back without
the mask on the face, slowing down an ascent when you can't do it by dumping
air from your BCD,
removing a tank from your backpack and replacing it, and the more common
ones such as using
your buddy's octopus and assuming an unconscious buddy and getting him
safely back to the surface.
All of these may never be needed, but if they are they are
lifesavers. The more often you dive
the more chance that it will be needed.
We even used to require our instructors (not the open water
students) to return to the surface from
100 feet without using a regulator and swim 100 yards underwater breathing
only from tanks that were
placed at reasonable intervals along the way. When I first went through that
instructor training, I thought
that it was a scary and dangerous thing to practice. It really wasn't
dangerous, we held our second stage
to our chest in case we either really needed it or wimped out. But once you
learn these various maneuvers
you greatly reduce the possibility that you will panic in an emergencey
situation and increase the possibility
that you can handle whatever happens to come along.
I would like to suggest that if any of you have not gone through
emergency training, you can do it with
your buddy if you stay in a protected piece of water and one does the
procedure and one monitors for safety.
I don't suggest the ascent from 100 feet unless it is being done with an
instructor directing it.
But practice taking off one fin or your mask, put the strap over
your arm and get back to a particular
point. If you have trouble doing any of this, you can drop me a personal
message and I'll give you some pointers.
I don't want to take up space for the whole group with details.
Barry Stier
sc...@touristguide.com
http://divesales.com
Michael Doelle
> The point is that skills like doff & don, while not necessarily a
> "practical" skill, are excercises designed to raise the proficiency an=
d
> comfort of the diver. Any diver who is unable to perform this skill
> comfortably needs to spend more time in the pool learning how to dive<<=
I basically agree, it's a good exercise. And in warm water this is no big=
deal for me, as the tank/BC and myself are pretty well balanced.
In my local environment, this is something that I cannot easily do alone.=
Double steel tanks, drysuit. The rig is quite negative, I'm very positive=
=2E
All the weight is on the rig - now that we've finally built our V-weights=
=2E =
Gear removal to reach the valves is not necessary in my case. The tanks a=
re
adjusted to just the right position, and I can reach all 3 valves easily,=
but I still practice reaching them on *every* dive. If I can easily reach=
back, I know that I have the right amount of air in the suit, if not I ad=
d
a little. And I check all valves before the dive, always, it's automatic.=
mika
Slippery Shark1
What if you end up in an entanglement situation? Is removal of gear still
not applicabile?
R.D. Jackson
PADI IDCS 26683
Randall C. Allen
At 09:39 AM 7/4/97 EDT, you wrote:
>I have to disagree with the aversion to the doff & don required by some
>agencies. While it does not have a tremendous amount of practical
>application, it promotes a higher comfort level and gear familiarity.
Gear familiarity? By diving into a pool to put the gear on? Truly an
agricultural by-product commonly found in the pasture! Never will a life
be saved by perfecting the technique of diving into a body of water without
SCUBA. I'll spend the little time I have available with students to get
them to the surface in the event of an emergency rather than the obsolete
ditch-and-don skill that teaches the reverse. While I believe the skill
has great benefit for the reasons others have stated, it has a lesser
benefit/time-spent ratio than other skills in the OW class, and therefore
detracts from more valuable exercises.
>Taking one's gear off underwater is certainly stressful to the student
>diver. Once they accomplish it, however, their confidence and comfort
>are increased. The lesson is that as long as they have a second stage in
>their mouth and can breathe normally, they can solve problems with the
>rest of their gear.
Excuse me, but the agencies with whom I've been exposed cover gear removal
quite thoroughly. All they leave out is diving in from the surface, which
is hardly a safety skill (unless the boat is burning).
>To only teach them diving when their gear is all
>perfect would be insufficient. Would you teach your students SCUBA
>without mask clearing?
To my knowledge, the basic OW classes of major agencies is specifically
focused on managing things that go wrong.
>The point is that skills like doff & don, while not necessarily a
>"practical" skill, ......
And therefore, a distraction from more valuable activities......
>....are excercises designed to raise the proficiency and
>comfort of the diver.
There is no question that such activities are valuable, but more likely
better done AFTER the OW student becomes familiar with TYPICAL situation
management skills. The basics are where we need to focus in OW classes.
Practice is necessary to hone skills. Save the D&D for later.
>Any diver who is unable to perform this skill
>comfortably needs to spend more time in the pool learning how to dive.
Why? You just said
"doff & don, while not necessarily a "practical" skill,"....
>They are insufficiently comfortable, and their instructor has cheated
>them.
What agency do you represent?
>The skill is not a macho excercise;
Hmmmm.....the predictive defense of the obvious.....must have expected that
response. Usually, predictable positions have merit.
>the instructor needs to guide the students through it.
Huh? If the instructor guides them through it, where is the development of
independent capability coming from....the confidence, the comfort.
>I personally don't care how fast, or how
>gracefully they perform it, only that they are able to function
>comfortably with their gear in disarray.
I think that is covered in basic OW classes where the diver deals with gear
removal and replacement skills without the silly requirement that they dive
from the surface where in the real world, visibility would likely preclude
any such action.....not to mention there is no need to leave the air-filled
atmosphere in favor of the aquatic environment without SCUBA for safety
reasons.
>If doff & don is too stressful or difficult for you, get your money back
>from your instructor & retake the course somewhere else.
Lack of comfort in this silly exercise is the instructor's fault? I would
probably consider a student who saw no benefit in the ditch and don
exercise a great candidate for diving, provided he masters the REAL skills
that may be needed at some point in their diving career.
No, the ditch and don skill is a lot of fun during spring refreshers, and
any other time a couple of divers want to hone their skills. To declare it
a necessary skill for safe diving demonstrates a lack of appreciation for
the real issue. --Getting to the surface safely in the event of a problem--
Getting to the bottom has no importance other than to add complexity to
gear management that is not usually typical of real life situations.
Having said this, I think experienced divers should find such activities a
lot of fun, but not a prerequisite for safe diving. I like the ditch and
don for the practice it offers. I don't think anyone can legitimately say
the time spent attempting to get to the bottom of the pool wearing a 3 mil
wetsuit is MORE beneficial than simple weight R&R, BC R&R, many mask
clears, ESAs, etc. If it isn't MORE beneficial, then it is a distraction.
My 2 cents,
Randy
It just doesn't work! http://www.utsi.com/~rca/
I press ESCAPE, http://www.searover.com/rca/scuba/
but I'm still here.... #include disclaimers.std
----------> Always err on the side of caution! <---------
Bill Robinson
_____________________________________________________________________________
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:24:04 -0500 "Randall C. Allen"
<ral...@SEAROVER.COM> writes:
<Lots of nonsense snipped>
So, educate us in these better ways to teach comfort level in the water.
Since you seem to think that NOT being able to do these skills seems to
be a sign of a good diver. I don't suppose you advocate a skin
ditch-and-recovery, either? Too stressful for your students? Or are you
even an instructor? I suppose you are opposed to a swim test, or
anything else that students might find "a waste of their time"? This has
to be a troll.
Students need to develop the ability to solve problems with a calm, clear
head AT DEPTH--many situations do not require bolting to the surface.
Teaching students to be able to get to the surface safely is of utmost
importance, but being able to keep one's wits about them under less than
optimal conditions at depth is just as critical.
>My 2 cents,
Um...if you say so, but I think the price is a bit high there, pal.
>
>Randy
>
>It just doesn't work! http://www.utsi.com/~rca/
>I press ESCAPE,
>http://www.searover.com/rca/scuba/
>but I'm still here.... #include disclaimers.std
>----------> Always err on the side of caution!* <---------
(*don't you mean "always head to the surface"?)
>
Cliff Sumbler
I think you are all missing the point.
Is it a valuable skill. Yes, without question
Does it improve familiarity with equipment. Again big Yes.
Are some novice divers upset about the activity. Yes
Upset enough not to get certified Yes
That possible failure might prevent someone from getting certified.
Is it a skill that takes time and patience to learn. Yes
Time that is not available in to-days quicky cert. courses. Yes
So cert. agencies simply drop it from from the ciriculum in order to
certify marginal cases, and speed up the process to maximize profits. And
in certifying these marginal cases get their $. That's what the cert.
business has become.
Ron Lee
SNIP
>No, the ditch and don skill is a lot of fun during spring refreshers, and
>any other time a couple of divers want to hone their skills. To declare it
>a necessary skill for safe diving demonstrates a lack of appreciation for
>the real issue. --Getting to the surface safely in the event of a problem--
>
Semantics perhaps, but the real issue is resolving the problem, which may
or may not involve getting to the surface. Example: loose tank strap
does not mean aborting the dive.
>Getting to the bottom has no importance other than to add complexity to
>gear management that is not usually typical of real life situations.
>Having said this, I think experienced divers should find such activities a
>lot of fun, but not a prerequisite for safe diving. I like the ditch and
>don for the practice it offers. I don't think anyone can legitimately say
>the time spent attempting to get to the bottom of the pool wearing a 3 mil
>wetsuit is MORE beneficial than simple weight R&R, BC R&R, many mask
>clears, ESAs, etc. If it isn't MORE beneficial, then it is a distraction.
>
How is the BC R&R performed? During the pool session on the bottom with
people around to hold the student...and during the open water session on the
surface of the water. Neither is adequate to reflect in-water (suspended)
gear R&R.
Ron Lee
>Randy
Randall C. Allen
At 11:50 PM 7/5/97 EDT, Bill wrote:
>So, educate us in these better ways to teach comfort level in the water.
Simple... Deal with the EXPECTED issues first, then the UNLIKELY second.
Comfort comes with the ability to handle REAL LIFE SITUATIONS. A FALSE
SENSE OF SECURITY comes from preparing for the unlikely at the expense of
the likely.
>Since you seem to think that NOT being able to do these skills seems to
>be a sign of a good diver.
Perhaps I can help.....Simply because something is unnecessary to success
of an endeavor, does not constitute its absence as a prerequisite for
success of that endeavor. Think about it, then reconsider your position.
>I don't suppose you advocate a skin ditch-and-recovery, either?
I assume you mean that we remove wetsuits to allow greater success in
reaching the bottom. ...Simply another departure from the usual diving
activity, not to mention the argued importance of the skill in safe diving.
One of the significant problems in gear management is buoyancy changes
that occur while gear (weights, specifically) are removed. Removing the
source of buoyancy to facilitate the skill's success is an admission that
the skill has limited applicability to real situations. Thanks. :-)
Is this skill worth the time spent taking the suits off and back on simply
to facilitate reaching the bottom easier? I would rather to an R&R BCs and
weight in full gear at the bottom than waste that time. I like lots of
mask clears too. It is very likely that these skills will be needed.
>Too stressful for your students? Or are you
>even an instructor?
New to the list are we? :-) No, if you read my post, you noticed I focused
on the fact that time is better spent on the issues that are likely to
happen underwater. I can't think of a compelling reason to abandon a dive
boat to search for gear on the bottom. Of course some of the D&D drills
I've witnessed used a diver on the bottom to assist in locating the
regulator. In real life I would expect the diver to bring the gear up. :-)
>I suppose you are opposed to a swim test, or anything else that students
might find "a waste of their time"? This has to be a troll.
Having trouble staying on topic, are we? Swimming is a skill that often
serves the diver in normal activities, and as such, deserves mastery. In
fact, it is properly a prerequisite.
>Students need to develop the ability to solve problems with a calm, clear
>head AT DEPTH--many situations do not require bolting to the surface.
>Teaching students to be able to get to the surface safely is of utmost
>importance, but being able to keep one's wits about them under less than
>optimal conditions at depth is just as critical.
I think that is what I said. Thanks for the support! Having them dive to
the bottom with wetsuits hardly teaches them anything useful, except that
it is difficult in deep pools. I described the importance of dealing with
the gear at depth vs. getting to the gear from the surface.
>>My 2 cents,
>
>Um...if you say so, but I think the price is a bit high there, pal.
Depends....Do you have difficulty recognizing that sometimes things change
for the better? I suspect a great deal of thought went into the decision to
drop the D&D drills from the formal curriculum of most agencies. It was
likely deemed less valuable than other activities, a position that I
support wholeheartedly.
Another 2 cents, and we will see what it ultimately costs, or whether the
investment will yield as little as the D&D for the investment expended.
One only repeats a fruitless investment so many times before it is
abandoned....like the D&D drill.
:-)
Randy
It just doesn't work! http://www.utsi.com/~rca/
I press ESCAPE, http://www.searover.com/rca/scuba/
but I'm still here.... #include disclaimers.std
----------> Always err on the side of caution! <---------
Ron Lee
>So cert. agencies simply drop it from from the ciriculum in order to
>certify marginal cases, and speed up the process to maximize profits. And
>in certifying these marginal cases get their $. That's what the cert.
>business has become.
>
Cliff...say it ain't so.
Ron
Cliff Sumbler
> Lack of comfort in this silly exercise is the instructor's fault? I would
> probably consider a student who saw no benefit in the ditch and don
> exercise a great candidate for diving, provided he masters the REAL skills
> that may be needed at some point in their diving career.
So what are the REAL skills your referring to?
Proper weighting? Woops that's not taught any more.
Basic Equipment Maintainance, No, thats not taught either,
Let's see, recovering a mask thats been kicked off by an overweighted
buddy, No, thats a doff and don skill.
BC buckle, fin strap, wieight belt buckle comes loose or comes off,
No that can't be the skills your referring to since they fall under doff
and don also.
I've got it, tank slips out of an insecure back pack, which by the way
resulted to 2 divers fatalities here a few years back, well not that one
either, that could easily been fixed with skills learned from Doff and
Don,
Sorry, I just can think of what you mean by the REAL skills, unless you
mean how to write a big check the the cert agency of your choice, but then
the school system has already taught them how to write...
Just another 2 cents.
Randall C. Allen
At 12:15 AM 7/6/97 -0400, Cliff wrote:
>> Lack of comfort in this silly exercise is the instructor's fault? I would
>> probably consider a student who saw no benefit in the ditch and don
>> exercise a great candidate for diving, provided he masters the REAL skills
>> that may be needed at some point in their diving career.
>
>So what are the REAL skills your referring to?
I think I listed some of them.
>Proper weighting? Woops that's not taught any more.
News to me !!
>Basic Equipment Maintainance, No, thats not taught either,
In open water? You must be ancient. :-)
>Let's see, recovering a mask thats been kicked off by an overweighted
>buddy, No, thats a doff and don skill.
Won't fly! It fits the standard curriculum.
>BC buckle, fin strap, wieight belt buckle comes loose or comes off,
>No that can't be the skills your referring to since they fall under doff
>and don also.
Not covered in D&D any more than in OW.
>I've got it, tank slips out of an insecure back pack, which by the way
>resulted to 2 divers fatalities here a few years back, well not that one
>either, that could easily been fixed with skills learned from Doff and
D&D doesn't deal with this any more than OW.
>Sorry, I just can think of what you mean by the REAL skills, unless you
>mean how to write a big check the the cert agency of your choice, but then
>the school system has already taught them how to write...
I don't expect everyone to agree, but for the sake of argument, what
standard OW skill exercise would anyone do away with to make time for the
D&D, assuming the time for the OW class remains the same. Something has to
go to make room.
Randall C. Allen
At 10:39 PM 7/5/97 -0600, you wrote:
>SNIP
>
>>No, the ditch and don skill is a lot of fun during spring refreshers, and
>>any other time a couple of divers want to hone their skills. To declare it
>>a necessary skill for safe diving demonstrates a lack of appreciation for
>>the real issue. --Getting to the surface safely in the event of a problem--
>>
>
>Semantics perhaps, but the real issue is resolving the problem, which may
>or may not involve getting to the surface. Example: loose tank strap
>does not mean aborting the dive.
The problem......IS DEALING WITH GEAR UNDERWATER -- NOT GETTING TO IT!
>How is the BC R&R performed? During the pool session on the bottom with
>people around to hold the student.
I don't recall seeing an assist on a skill that was considered successful.
..and during the open water session on the
>surface of the water. Neither is adequate to reflect in-water (suspended)
>gear R&R.
Funny, I recall the D&D exercises occurring on the bottom....where the
weights are.
I don't have a problem with the D&D as a skill to be attained through
practice....after OW class. I think it is a disservice to expect this
particular skill to be mastered at the expense of learning to R&R the
equipment in the usual form. In other words, nix the dive in from the
surface. Practice is necessary to dive safely and to master the more
complicated techniques. I'll opt for spending the time where it is best
spent.....for the greatest gain per hour.
Simon L Hartley
OK, I'm confused (maybe it's because I missed the posting that started this
whole thing).
Are we talking about "Bail-outs", which in my experience involve jumping
into the water holding all your gear in your arms (tank switched off etc.,
the way we used to do in my old dive club on weekly skills nights) and
getting geared up on the bottom?
or...
"Ditch and don" of BC, weight belt and mask, where you remove each
individually and then put them back on again?
The former I would agree is unlikely to be of much practical use other than
increasing confidence (or perhaps for NAVY seals) but the latter I think
are skills which people (at least I) use regularly. I regularly remove my
BC and tank (or loosen or remove weight belt), for practice, to check for
air leaks or untangle things or (more frequently) to flush my wetsuit
(which I also partly remove, don't ask why :). As my sinuses tend to get
congested a lot I'm always removing my mask and swimming around without it
(I would count this as the most important skill of all of these skills).
Perhaps clarifying which of these skills we are talking about would be a
good start!! Do training agencies no longer teach BC, weight, mask ditch
and dons (this would worry me)? I'm pretty sure we never did bail-outs in
OW training but we did the other skills.
Simon
"If you aren't living on the edge, your taking up too much space"
- Anonymous
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon L Hartley o o Oo o
Associate Lecturer oo o o
School of Resource Science and Management o oo _____ o oo
Southern Cross University o (_/-\_) oo
P.O. Box 157 ===(S) o
Lismore NSW, Australia 2480
Ph: (066) 203 251 or (61 66) 203 251
Fax:(066) 212 669 E-mail: shar...@scu.edu.au
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.scu.edu.au/staff_pages/shartley/index.html
Simon L Hartley
As an asside to this topic of skills the other day I saw one of the best
bits of gear maintenance on the fly I've seen.
I was showing (not leading, I'm not a DM or the like) a group of
experienced divers around one of our more popular local dive sites. For
some reason the one girls buddy went over to examine her console in the
process of fiddling with it an air leek was noticed that seemed to be
coming from the back of the HP guage. Fiddling more and rotating the
console produced a flurry of bubbles (the two looked at each other with a
sort of "maybe that wasn't such a good idea" type of look). They fiddled
with the console a bit more and bang it shot off leaving the end of the HP
hose with air jetting out. It is at this point that I would have offered
the girl my reg and taken her back to the surface but the buddy gave her
his occy and proceeded to turn her air off. Once the air flow had stopped
they freed the HP guage from the console boot, screwed the HP guage back on
to the hose and gingerly turned the air on again. It worked!! They
checked the contents, 150 bar (it was at the start of the dive) and
changing back to her own reg and shoving the guage back through the boot we
continued the dive. Needless to say both were very experienced divers (one
(possibly both) were instructors and the girl was a marine biology student
and did a lot of research diving). Anyway I was impressed and gave them a
round of applause after they completed their repair job.
We weren't that deep (didn't go below 18m for the dive, moving into
shallower water) but I thought they were very calm and resourceful handling
such a problem.
Randall C. Allen
At 04:22 PM 7/6/97 +1000, you wrote:
>OK, I'm confused (maybe it's because I missed the posting that started this
>whole thing).
>
>Are we talking about "Bail-outs", which in my experience involve jumping
>into the water holding all your gear in your arms (tank switched off etc.,
>the way we used to do in my old dive club on weekly skills nights) and
>getting geared up on the bottom?
I left that one alone since I haven't heard the term down here.
>"Ditch and don" of BC, weight belt and mask, where you remove each
>individually and then put them back on again?
Down here, in the D&D as I've done it, the diver throws all gear into the
water (ditches it), dives in, then puts the gear on one piece at a time.
Obviously the regulator gets high priority followed by the weights or mask,
depending on the comfort level of the diver. I prefer weights first. The
trickiest part is reaching the bottom in a full wetsuit and no weights.
With a thick suit, this skill does not contribute anything to the diver's
skill level except frustration.
>The former I would agree is unlikely to be of much practical use other than
>increasing confidence (or perhaps for NAVY seals) but the latter I think
>are skills which people (at least I) use regularly. I regularly remove my
>BC and tank (or loosen or remove weight belt), for practice, to check for
>air leaks or untangle things or (more frequently) to flush my wetsuit
>(which I also partly remove, don't ask why :).
R&R of a BC is something that experienced divers consider a normal
activity. OW students are often fearful of this skill, but it is among the
most necessary in the event of entanglement or tank slippage. It must be
mastered to dive safely IMNSHO.
snip...
>Perhaps clarifying which of these skills we are talking about would be a
>good start!!
Very good idea....I suspect the names can be used interchangeably in
different locations.
>Do training agencies no longer teach BC, weight, mask ditch
>and dons (this would worry me)?
They are still here for obvious reasons.
Ron Lee
Randy wrote:
>R&R of a BC is something that experienced divers consider a normal
>activity. OW students are often fearful of this skill, but it is among the
>most necessary in the event of entanglement or tank slippage. It must be
>mastered to dive safely IMNSHO.
>
even performed in an actual suspended water setting. It is not mastered
in PADI AOW, or Underwater Navigation, or Deep Diving or Night Diving
specialty courses. So when is it mastered? Inquiring minds want to
know.
Ron Lee
Michael Doelle
>>What if you end up in an entanglement situation? Is removal of gear
still
not applicabile?<<
I consider cave and wreck diving a team sport. So I would expect my dive
partners to help me in that situation. If I'm alone, gear removal is an
option, but must be carefully executed. As I mentioned, my gear is very
negative while I am not. I know I can do this, but would try to free myse=
lf
without removing the rig first. I usually carry a knife and scissors. May=
be
I should add a wire cutter? Do the Scapa Flow experts know if this would =
be
a good idea, we're going in 10 days.
mika, munich
Wayne and Rita McKenzie
Do you mean to tell me you youngsters don't have to do this exercise with a
piece of black garbage bag in your mask anymore? :-) The good old black out
ditch and don was something to be feared by new divers. We had to do a
front roll into the pool with only a blacked out mask, find our gear at the
bottom of the pool, put it on and then wait for our buddy to join you
without a tank. You would then buddy breath around the pool with your buddy
supplying the eyes and you supplying the air. Actually it did do one thing
for me, I found not having the visual reference let me focus better on
dealing with the panic creeping in, who knows maybe there wouldn't have
been any panic if we hadn't done the exercise. There have been times over
the years I have retreated to that "calming" area to deal with a problem. I
guess what I am trying to say is the only benefit I can say I got from the
exercise was help in developing an ability to deal with panic.
At 02:01 AM 7/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Down here, in the D&D as I've done it, the diver throws all gear into the
>water (ditches it), dives in, then puts the gear on one piece at a time.
>Obviously the regulator gets high priority followed by the weights or mask,
>depending on the comfort level of the diver. I prefer weights first. The
>trickiest part is reaching the bottom in a full wetsuit and no weights.
>With a thick suit, this skill does not contribute anything to the diver's
>skill level except frustration.
>
>>Do training agencies no longer teach BC, weight, mask ditch
>>and dons (this would worry me)?
>
>They are still here for obvious reasons.
>
>
>Randy
>
>It just doesn't work! http://www.utsi.com/~rca/
>I press ESCAPE, http://www.searover.com/rca/scuba/
>but I'm still here.... #include disclaimers.std
>----------> Always err on the side of caution! <---------
>
Wayne McKenzie
way...@nanaimo.ark.com
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
Randall C. Allen
At 07:01 AM 7/6/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Randy wrote:
>>R&R of a BC is something that experienced divers consider a normal
>>activity. OW students are often fearful of this skill, but it is among the
>>most necessary in the event of entanglement or tank slippage. It must be
>>mastered to dive safely IMNSHO.
>>
>And do you honestly believe that it is mastered in OW class?
Not to the level that it may be needed one day. That is why I think it is
important to focus on such skills in the time available rather than
distractions that offer less practical value. It is only mastered to the
same degree that driving is master in drivers education classes. At the
end of the driver's educations class you can likely drive to the store
without significant problems, but a trip from New York to Los Angeles is
probably not a good idea. As with any skills, complete mastery comes with
much practice, not a class.
>It is not
>even performed in an actual suspended water setting. It is not mastered
>in PADI AOW, or Underwater Navigation, or Deep Diving or Night Diving
>specialty courses. So when is it mastered? Inquiring minds want to
>know.
Depends on the person, but I can tell you one think. D&D drills in an OW
class are neither necessary, nor sufficient for mastery of dealing with
equipment underwater. D&D success might DEMONSTRATE mastery, but it is not
a more efficient TEACHING TECHNIQUE than what already is being done.
It still takes practice to make the skills intuitive rather than procedural.
Cliff Sumbler
> the way we used to do in my old dive club on weekly skills nights) and
> getting geared up on the bottom?
>
>
> "Ditch and don" of BC, weight belt and mask, where you remove each
> individually and then put them back on again?
Once that skill was mastered. Do it with a black out mask. Some old mask
that had the lens spray painted with a good layer of black paint.
Was the last required skill for certification.
BTW, BC, was not included, since this pre-dated BC's.
Ron Lee
At 11:04 97/7/06 -0400, you wrote:
>Do you mean to tell me you youngsters don't have to do this exercise with a
>piece of black garbage bag in your mask anymore? :-) The good old black out
>ditch and don was something to be feared by new divers. We had to do a
>front roll into the pool with only a blacked out mask, find our gear at the
>bottom of the pool, put it on and then wait for our buddy to join you
>without a tank. You would then buddy breath around the pool with your buddy
>supplying the eyes and you supplying the air. Actually it did do one thing
>for me, I found not having the visual reference let me focus better on
>dealing with the panic creeping in, who knows maybe there wouldn't have
>been any panic if we hadn't done the exercise. There have been times over
>the years I have retreated to that "calming" area to deal with a problem. I
>guess what I am trying to say is the only benefit I can say I got from the
>exercise was help in developing an ability to deal with panic.
A non-trivial benefit. However I doubt even that exercise could
adequately prepare you for the stress of diving near me!
Ron Lee
Cliff Sumbler
> Do you mean to tell me you youngsters don't have to do this exercise with a
> piece of black garbage bag in your mask anymore? :-) The good old black out
> ditch and don was something to be feared by new divers. We had to do a
> front roll into the pool with only a blacked out mask, find our gear at the
> bottom of the pool, put it on and then wait for our buddy to join you
> without a tank. You would then buddy breath around the pool with your buddy
> supplying the eyes and you supplying the air. Actually it did do one thing
Didn't go as far as the buddy breathing, however while going the procuder,
it was not uncommon to be harrased by the instructor, ie, turning off air,
relocating bits of equipment, flipping release on weight belt, etc.
Wayne and Rita McKenzie
At 11:07 AM 7/6/97 -0600, you wrote:
>There have been times over
>>the years I have retreated to that "calming" area to deal with a problem. I
>>guess what I am trying to say is the only benefit I can say I got from the
>>exercise was help in developing an ability to deal with panic.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>A non-trivial benefit. However I doubt even that exercise could
>adequately prepare you for the stress of diving near me!
>
>Ron Lee
>
I could just retreat to that calming place and POOF you're gone. :-)
Andre Gionet
On July 6, Simon L Hartley wrote:
[snip]
>"Ditch and don" of BC, weight belt and mask, where you remove each
>individually and then put them back on again?
[snip]
>Do training agencies no longer teach BC, weight, mask ditch and >dons =
(this would worry me)? =20
When I took my NAUI OW1 class in 1996, my instructor made us perform =
that skill. He stated that "Ditch & Don" was not on the official NAUI =
curriculum, but the dive store thought that students should be able to =
do it as part of the pool exercices. Ours was removing fins, BC and =
tank, weight belts, mask, and regulator, swim to the surface (we were in =
10 feet [3 meters] of water), then dive back and gear up at the bottom =
of the pool. =20
Regarding student comfort, I hated that exercice! Still, I think of it =
as going to the dentist: a small pain now to escape bigger pains later. =
I found it was a good exercice to learn how to deal with your gear =
underwater. =20
That was my 0.05$CDN! ;-)
Andre Gionet
Calgary, Alberta
agi...@nucleus.com
Aquaman-Kerry
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Michael Doelle wrote:
> >>What if you end up in an entanglement situation? Is removal of gear
> still
> not applicabile?<<
>
> I consider cave and wreck diving a team sport. So I would expect my dive
> partners to help me in that situation. If I'm alone, gear removal is an
> option, but must be carefully executed. As I mentioned, my gear is very
> negative while I am not. I know I can do this, but would try to free myself
> without removing the rig first. I usually carry a knife and scissors. Maybe
> I should add a wire cutter? Do the Scapa Flow experts know if this would be
> a good idea, we're going in 10 days.
I was wondering if my original reply on this topic got through since
there wasn't any comment on it. Here's the abbreviated version:
I basicaly experienced an
entaglement situation where (due to low vis) my buddy
lost track of me and I not only got tangled up, but wedged
into a part of the wreck trying to free myself. Basically,
the ONLY way I was able to get free (without assistance)
was to remove my equipment (with regulator still in
mouth of course) , cut the fishing line, and uncoil
the steel cable wrapped securely around my tank valve
(I would have broken it bare handed but the wreck must have
had some kryptonite on board). ;) Once this
was accomplished I was able to maneuver enough to remove my stuck
leg from the wreckage. So the exercises in the pool were
exremely valuable to me *in this instance*. I haven't yet had a
student complain about doing the ditch and don in the
pool. If they do I will relate the applicability of
the skill on that particular dive.
I'm surprised (but not too much) to see the debate
start to degenerate into "I'm a better diver than you
'cause" stuff. If it works for you great, teach it,
use it, whatever. If it doesn't, then don't.
Everybody has different teaching styles and methods,
as long as standards are followed and safety techniques
learned, I wouldn't say my way is better than anyone
else's. I do enjoying learning *other* ways of doing things
better, as long as the student benefits.
Kerry
Disentangled and Lovin It! :)
Ron Lee
basicaly experienced an
>entaglement situation where (due to low vis) my buddy
>lost track of me and I not only got tangled up, but wedged
>into a part of the wreck trying to free myself. Basically,
>the ONLY way I was able to get free (without assistance)
>was to remove my equipment (with regulator still in
>mouth of course) , cut the fishing line, and uncoil
>the steel cable wrapped securely around my tank valve
>(I would have broken it bare handed but the wreck must have
>had some kryptonite on board). ;) Once this
>was accomplished I was able to maneuver enough to remove my stuck
>leg from the wreckage. So the exercises in the pool were
>exremely valuable to me *in this instance*. I haven't yet had a
>student complain about doing the ditch and don in the
>pool. If they do I will relate the applicability of
>the skill on that particular dive.
>
>Disentangled and Lovin It! :)
My comments have been primarily directed at remove and replace (R&R)
just as you did in this case. If OW students were required to do that
underwater (suspended), then I would be happy.
I doubt that I could do the Doff/surface/submerge/don bit with a
6 mil wetsuit and no weights. But the R&R I can do, and have to correct
a minor problem and for practice.
Your original post did make it through.
Ron
Michael Doelle
Kerry,
>>I was wondering if my original reply on this topic got through since
there wasn't any comment on it. Here's the abbreviated version:<<
Not sure if I was replying to one of your messages, prolly not.
>>I basicaly experienced an
entaglement situation where (due to low vis) my buddy
lost track of me and I not only got tangled up, but wedged
into a part of the wreck trying to free myself. =
[snippety snip]
>>So the exercises in the pool were
exremely valuable to me *in this instance*. I haven't yet had a
student complain about doing the ditch and don in the
pool. <<
Have I disagreed with any of this? Don't think so. I merely pointed out
that my gear configuration would call for careful execution of the gear
removal.
>>I'm surprised (but not too much) to see the debate
start to degenerate into "I'm a better diver than you
'cause" stuff. <<
Since this is addressed to me, I'm quite puzzled. Where did I imply that?=
You must have misunderstood me or I did not type my position clearly.
>> If it works for you great, teach it,
use it, whatever. If it doesn't, then don't.<<
I do not teach. I just dive. Still maintain 'non-teaching' status, but
don't really know why.
>>I wouldn't say my way is better than anyone
else's. <<
Hell, why not, that's what I do all the time.
Mika, Munich
NED My Way's the Way , Or Else (TM)
Drew Mooney
couple
of things: 1) "Failure" of the HP hose (in this case, apparently
separation
of the HP swivel due to threads unseating) does not an emergency make.
My
guess (never seen it happen) is that the resultant swirl of bubbles
looks
impressive and perhaps even safety threatening, but the scenario has
been
discussed numerous times in this and other forums, and it's not REALLY
an
emergency. It would take considerable time to drain a tank through a
free
flowing HP port - it's pinhole sized. So offers to share air with the
party
in question, while noble, were not exactly life saving.
(that they fixed the problem though, is pretty cool)
Next - and this is more a question than a rebuttal: Is it a good thing
to
introduce water into an SPG? Granted - in this case doing so saved a
dive.
But at what expense? Would it not have been better in this case to
surface
calmly, deal with the problem there, and then do the dive again rather
than
pull off a really groovy and applause yielding underwater repair that
may
- in the end, result in compromising the accuracy or longevity of the
guage?
Discussion. Please.
Drew
Aquaman-Kerry
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Michael Doelle wrote:
> Kerry,
>
> >>I was wondering if my original reply on this topic got through since
> there wasn't any comment on it. Here's the abbreviated version:<<
>
> Not sure if I was replying to one of your messages, prolly not.
I didn't think I was a response to anything I said
at all. I was just replying to the "topic" since
you asked about entanglement scenarios. :)
>
> >>I basicaly experienced an
> entaglement situation where (due to low vis) my buddy
> lost track of me and I not only got tangled up, but wedged
> into a part of the wreck trying to free myself.
>
> [snippety snip]
>
> >>So the exercises in the pool were
> exremely valuable to me *in this instance*. I haven't yet had a
> student complain about doing the ditch and don in the
> pool. <<
>
> Have I disagreed with any of this? Don't think so. I merely pointed out
> that my gear configuration would call for careful execution of the gear
> removal.
No diagreement noted from me. :)
I was just re-stating something from a note of mine
which I didn't think got through before (I've since been
corrected).
> >>I'm surprised (but not too much) to see the debate
> start to degenerate into "I'm a better diver than you
> 'cause" stuff. <<
> Since this is addressed to me, I'm quite puzzled. Where did I imply that?
> You must have misunderstood me or I did not type my position clearly.
Mika. My apologies. I was making a general comment
about the tone of some of the messages I saw on the topic.
Since I was combining response(s), your message was just the last
one I read and threw the comments in randomly. My remarks
were *in no way* directed at you personally, or to anything
you posted. If so, I would have quoted the passage
I was responding to.. Sorry bout the confusion fellow
scuba-l denizen. :)
> >> If it works for you great, teach it,
> use it, whatever. If it doesn't, then don't.<<
>
> I do not teach. I just dive. Still maintain 'non-teaching' status, but
> don't really know why.
Nothing wrong with that at all. Diving is good whether you
are teaching or not. Actually diving, without having
to supervise students, is often MORE fun. :)
> >>I wouldn't say my way is better than anyone
> else's. <<
>
> Hell, why not, that's what I do all the time.
Well actually I do too....:)
> Mika, Munich
> NED My Way's the Way , Or Else (TM)
Actually didn't the military (TM) that first...:)
I know the Navy sure said it to me a lot.....
Kerry
NED Executive Confuser and Tangler
Barry Stier
Gentlemen,
Handling an emergency situation while submerged, in a way that takes
the divers to the surface in a healthy
condition, is the right way. There may be other ways to have handled it, but
whatever it was, it was right. It's exactly
like landing an airplane. If you can walk away from the plane and discuss
the way it was done, it was ok.
In either situation, you are faced with making a decision and acting
on it within minutes or even seconds. Nothing
takes precedence over getting the divers to the surface safely.
In my more than 40 years of diving, sport, commercial and as an
instructor, I have had some emergencies. Thinking
about the way I took care of each of them, after the fact, I always thought
of a better way I could have done it. But being able
to think about it afterwards, and being able to discuss it with the buddies
or students who were involved was proof that the
way I did it was at least good enough.
Criticising this particular solution to the problem of a free
flowing HP hose is very easy to do, sitting at our computers. It
does not take into account that your mind, during a crisis, works very much
like a computer database. It recognizes the problem and
goes searching for the answer. Just as if you told the search engine to find
the word "the" in a document. It then stops at the first
occurrence of the word "the" until you tell it to continue to search for the
next one. In an emergency, you mind stops at the first viable
solution to the problem.
While submerged, there would be a very strong urge to use the first
viable solution that came up in your search for an anwer. It is not
reasonable to think, "Hmm, that would get us out of trouble. I wonder if I
can think of another way to do it? I think I'll just hang here at 60 feet
and try to think of a better way to get us out of the water without drowning."
This is not intended as a criticism of anybody's reply's. Just an
attempt to shed a little light on actual emergency frame of mind. I've
been there a few times.
Barry Stier
http://divesales.com
At 11:12 AM 7/7/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:32 Drew Monney wrote:
>>of things: 1) "Failure" of the HP hose (in this case, apparently
>>separation
>>of the HP swivel due to threads unseating) does not an emergency make.
>
>Certainly not under the circumstances I described, although not having had
>this happen to me I was unsure whether the loss of air from the HP hose
>would have significantly affected the performance of her second stage.
>Probably maintaining close buddy contact while returning to the surface
>would have been an appropriate response (without air sharing). I don't
>think I'd have rushed to give her my reg unless it was asked for.
>
>>Next - and this is more a question than a rebuttal: Is it a good thing
>>to
>>introduce water into an SPG? Granted - in this case doing so saved a
>>dive.
>>But at what expense? Would it not have been better in this case to
>>surface
>>calmly, deal with the problem there, and then do the dive again rather
>>than
>>pull off a really groovy and applause yielding underwater repair that
>>may
>>- in the end, result in compromising the accuracy or longevity of the
>>guage?
>
>This is another reason I probably wouldn't have taken the action I
>described (at least it wasn't the thing I thought of at the time (I worry
>about looking after expensive dive gear too)), the HP guage was flooded
>anyway but at the time I was concerned about flooding the LP hoses, first
>stage, etc. with water. I'm sure if they (we, as I didn't have to pay for
>the dive and would have offered to take her to the boat) had headed up as
>soon as the problem began she would have reached the boat before the tank
>drained completely (maybe, if not she'd need to service both the tank and
>regs).
>
>It would be interesting to hear from people who have had similar problems,
>HP hose burst etc. (only had this happen on land, turned tank of quickly).
Richard Mittnacht
I had a similar experience in the Florida Keys a couple of years ago.
All of a sudden my console started throwing up a wall of bubbles. We
were about 15 minutes into our dive, in approx. 60 fsw. I realized that
the bubbles were coming from a leak in my spg, but the boat was anchored
about 1/3 mi. away. Rather than surface, and endure a tiring swim to the
boat that way, I opted to ascend to 15 ft. and swim to the boat
underwater while keeping an eye on my gauge. My buddy stayed right with
me just in case, and we made it to the boat with no further problems. I
still had about 900 psi in my al 80 at the boat, so the leak didn't
cause that much of a problem. It turned out to be the small "O" ring on
the stem of the spg. I replaced the "O" ring, and I'm still using the
gauge with no further problems.
Rich
Simon L Hartley wrote:
>snip
It would be interesting to hear from people who have had similar
problems,
> HP hose burst etc. (only had this happen on land, turned tank of
> quickly).
>
> Simon
>
> "If you aren't living on the edge, your taking up too much space"
> - Anonymous
>
> ----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> Simon L Hartley o o Oo
> o
> Associate Lecturer oo o o
> School of Resource Science and Management o oo _____ o oo
> Southern Cross University o (_/-\_) oo
> P.O. Box 157 ===(S) o
> Lismore NSW, Australia 2480
> Ph: (066) 203 251 or (61 66) 203 251
> Fax:(066) 212 669 E-mail:
> shar...@scu.edu.au
> -------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------
> http://www.scu.edu.au/staff_pages/shartley/index.html
--
It is a mistake to allow any
mechanical object to realize
that you are in a hurry.
Simon L Hartley
It would be interesting to hear from people who have had similar problems,
HP hose burst etc. (only had this happen on land, turned tank of quickly).
Simon
"If you aren't living on the edge, your taking up too much space"
- Anonymous
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon L Hartley o o Oo o
Associate Lecturer oo o o
School of Resource Science and Management o oo _____ o oo
Southern Cross University o (_/-\_) oo
P.O. Box 157 ===(S) o
Lismore NSW, Australia 2480
Ph: (066) 203 251 or (61 66) 203 251
Fax:(066) 212 669 E-mail: shar...@scu.edu.au
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.scu.edu.au/staff_pages/shartley/index.html
Bjorn Vang Jensen
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Bill Robinson writes:
>I don't suppose you advocate a skin
>ditch-and-recovery, either? Too stressful for your students? Or are you
>even an instructor? I suppose you are opposed to a swim test, or
>anything else that students might find "a waste of their time"? This has
>to be a troll.
SKIN ditch and recovery ??? Huh ?
Bjorn
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Bjorn Vang Jensen
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Ron writes:
>Semantics perhaps, but the real issue is resolving the problem, which =
may
>or may not involve getting to the surface. Example: loose tank strap
>does not mean aborting the dive.
I struggle to find an example, but I am willing to listen if anyone can =
come up with a credible scenario where you would be better off leaving =
your gear on the bottom, then ascending only to go down and get it =
again.
>How is the BC R&R performed? During the pool session on the bottom =
with
>people around to hold the student...and during the open water session =
on the
>surface of the water. Neither is adequate to reflect in-water =
(suspended)
>gear R&R.
Certainly not. The BCD R&R is also performed in open water, on the =
bottom. Few students get it right the first time, so they are (or should =
be) made to do it until they do. If they are not, that's the instructor =
not the agency, whichever agency that is.
Bjorn
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Bjorn Vang Jensen
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Cliff Sumbler writes:
>Let's see, recovering a mask thats been kicked off by an overweighted
>buddy, No, thats a doff and don skill.
>BC buckle, fin strap, wieight belt buckle comes loose or comes off,
>No that can't be the skills your referring to since they fall under =
doff
>and don also.
>I've got it, tank slips out of an insecure back pack, which by the way
>resulted to 2 divers fatalities here a few years back, well not that =
one
>either, that could easily been fixed with skills learned from Doff and
>Don,
What I originally objected to, and what it is perfectly clear to me that =
Randy objects to as well, is not the teaching of skills that involve =
temporarily removing a piece of equipment underwater. Those skill, =
whether they involve masks, weight belts or rigs, are useful, should be =
and are taught by every agency. I still just don't get the point about =
ascending after removal, then diving and re-donning it.
Bjorn
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EE Atikkan
You wrote:
>
>I had a similar experience in the Florida Keys a couple of years ago.
>All of a sudden my console started throwing up a wall of bubbles.
> It turned out to be the small "O" ring on
>the stem of the spg. I replaced the "O" ring, and I'm still using the
>gauge with no further problems.
>
Sometimes grabbing the SPG (or console) w/ 1 hnd & the hose w/ the
other & smartly bending, as if trying to break the SPG of the hose,
will 'reseat' the =I====I= or =I==||==I= shaped (the I's represent
mini O-rings) piece found at the connection of the hose & spg. That
will stp the freeflow. It can B done u/w.
Esat Atikkan
EE Atikkan
Bjorn,
Though the 'ascend after ditch then surface dive to don' part of a D&D
exercise may have no true practical application, in my view, it is a
super confidence builder.
The trainee learns:
1. The value of a good surface dive.
2. Diving w/o a wt belt is possible.
3. It is possible to accomplish a task u/w on one breath.
Again IMNSHO opinion, these R worthwhile.
Thus I still require my students to do a D&D as well as a don&clear. I
have to admit that I do have the luxury of 20-25 h of pool per class.
Regards
Esat Atikkan
Lukasz Kiniewicz
Point of practicing D&D is questionable, but explicable. Some of the other
underwater skills that are taught aren't.
Example:
To get CMAS* (one) it is obligatory to descend to 30m /~100 ft/ WITHOUT a mask!
Fulfilling such requirement is extremely stressful, pointless, dangerous and
idiotic. The only hypothetical situation in which you could use it would be
the case of total sclerosis- going diving & forgeting to put your mask on :-)
Even more Navy Seal-like... In my opinion should be banned.
Luke
Ron Lee
>Bjorn,
>Though the 'ascend after ditch then surface dive to don' part of a D&D
>exercise may have no true practical application, in my view, it is a
>super confidence builder.
>
>The trainee learns:
>
>1. The value of a good surface dive.
>2. Diving w/o a wt belt is possible.
>3. It is possible to accomplish a task u/w on one breath.
>
>Again IMNSHO opinion, these R worthwhile.
>
>Thus I still require my students to do a D&D as well as a don&clear. I
>have to admit that I do have the luxury of 20-25 h of pool per class.
>
>Regards
>
>Esat Atikkan
>
20-25 hours of pool per class compared to approximately NINE (9) in a
typical PADI class. I would send new students to you Esat but the
commute might be a bit much.
Ron Lee
EE Atikkan
You wrote:
>
>
>20-25 hours of pool per class compared to approximately NINE (9) in a
>typical PADI class. I would send new students to you Esat but the
>commute might be a bit much.
>
>Ron Lee
>
Ron,
Sure just have them register for PE 138.1 @ Montgomery College - GE
campus (they can register for the Rockville Campus, that course is
taught by an ex-student of mine). Or they can register for 3 courses
that Montgomery County Recreation Department offers every 10 weeks. I
teach two of them, a friend the 3rd. All the same program. Actually
the same program is also taught at Univ of MD & Gallaudet Univ.
The problem is those types of courses w/ that amount of pool time,
TA's, etc. R not practical, monetarily, outside of subsidized circles.
Too bad, but those R the realities of the market place.
Esat Atikkan
Randall Allen
At 03:23 PM 7/7/97 -0500, Esat wrote:
>Bjorn,
>Though the 'ascend after ditch then surface dive to don' part of a D&D
>exercise may have no true practical application, in my view, it is a
>super confidence builder.
I'm sure it would do that.
>The trainee learns:
>
>1. The value of a good surface dive.
>2. Diving w/o a wt belt is possible.
Not with a typical full wetsuit, it isn't...unless it is a shallow pool.
>3. It is possible to accomplish a task u/w on one breath.
>
>Again IMNSHO opinion, these R worthwhile.
>
>Thus I still require my students to do a D&D as well as a don&clear. I
>have to admit that I do have the luxury of 20-25 h of pool per class.
Well, the more time spent practicing, the better the skills will be
developed. I expect you need to fill that time with something. While its
practical value is less than other skills, it is practice. The beneficial
part occurs when the diver and gear are together. The travel away from, and
back to, the gear has the least value of anything I can imagine in the
SCUBA learning environment.
However, I'll buy the argument that it builds confidence....but so does
mastery of the techniques required to handle typical situations. Assuming
adequate confidence can be gained by mastery of the safety skills that are
predictably important for the well-being of the diver, as well as those
that are NOT expected to contribute to diver safety, I'll focus on the
critical skills first, as I'm sure Esat does.
If I had 20 to 25 hours of pool time with each class, I would grow my own
webs and retire the Quatros.
Randy
It just doesn't work.... http://www.searover.com/rca/scuba/
I press <Escape>.... http://www.utsi.com
but I'm still here.... #INCLUDE Disclaimers.std
---> Always err on the side of caution. <---
Bjorn Vang Jensen
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No, no, it's a confidence builder, Luke. Next they'll require you to do =
so with your air off, so you can learn to deal with these situations as =
well. For additional learning value, increase weight on the belt by 600% =
(great motivator for learning to turn your air on quickly), and for =
those who really want to learn to be "good" divers, perhaps the tank =
should be full of oxygen instead of air, the better to force you to do =
this very quickly. No, hang on, every diver should know how to doff and =
don while going through oxtox convulsions...Duh.
Bjorn
-----Original Message-----
From: Lukasz Kiniewicz [SMTP:luk...@IT.COM.PL]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 04:46
To: Multiple recipients of list SCUBA-L
Subject: Re: Doff & Don, Bailout, & Other Non-practical skills...
Point of practicing D&D is questionable, but explicable. Some of the =
other
underwater skills that are taught aren't.
Example:
To get CMAS* (one) it is obligatory to descend to 30m /~100 ft/ WITHOUT =
a mask!
Fulfilling such requirement is extremely stressful, pointless, dangerous =
and
idiotic. The only hypothetical situation in which you could use it would =
be
the case of total sclerosis- going diving & forgeting to put your mask =
on :-)
Even more Navy Seal-like... In my opinion should be banned.
Luke
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Bjorn Vang Jensen
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Hi Esat,
Are you telling me that your students can descend and don all their gear on one
breath ? Wow!
Bjorn
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EE Atikkan
You wrote:
>
>> The point is that skills like doff & don, while not necessarily a
>> "practical" skill, are excercises designed to raise the proficiency
an=
>d
>> comfort of the diver. Any diver who is unable to perform this skill
>> comfortably needs to spend more time in the pool learning how to
dive<<=
>
>
>I basically agree, it's a good exercise. And in warm water this is no
big=
>
>deal for me, as the tank/BC and myself are pretty well balanced.
>
>In my local environment, this is something that I cannot easily do
alone.=
>
>Double steel tanks, drysuit. The rig is quite negative, I'm very
positive=
>=2E
>All the weight is on the rig - now that we've finally built our
V-weights=
>=2E =
>
>
>Gear removal to reach the valves is not necessary in my case. The
tanks a=
>re
>adjusted to just the right position, and I can reach all 3 valves
easily,=
>
>but I still practice reaching them on *every* dive. If I can easily
reach=
>
>back, I know that I have the right amount of air in the suit, if not I
ad=
>d
>a little. And I check all valves before the dive, always, it's
automatic.=
>
>
>mika
>
Gear removal is an important skill to master, especially for those who
have a pencahnt for solo diving. Wreck divers have had the occassion
to remove tank (doubles usually) to inch through a restriction either
because the treasure, the Au bouillion was there or, more importantly,
salvation lay there (yep been there).
That, de facto, means that buoyancy of diver should be adjusted such
that they can remain neutral (or maybe slightly -ve) even w/ tanks
removed. Diving any other way is simply asking for trouble if it
becomes necessary to ditch & push tanks (in a wreck some piece of metal
or some sort of 'ballast' may be found, but it should not be part of
plan, just a convenience).
Ditching gear also implies much siltation is possible, a situation that
the diver must be ready for. Hence the exercise of doff & don w/ mask
blacked out (only in wreck/deep specialities). Other exercises that
ready aspirants to serious wreck diving is laying & following line,
being able to switch regs, etc, all w/ vision occluded. Also actually
going to the bottom of a quarry & silting it up on purpose & perform
drills helps (find knife & cut a line, deploy deco line, etc), all in
near zero viz.
Manipulating valves should not require ditching gear.
Best way to practice this to turn on tanks after U have donned them,
before getting into water. In some ways trying this on the boat or
land is more difficult than U/W as U/W the tanks have more mobility (by
changing snugness of harness or by tilting them up or sideways). Thus
if fully suited diver can reach the valves & turn them on before
getting into water, they can most surely do it U/W.
Esat Atikkan
Lukasz Kiniewicz
At 12:17 8.07.97 EDT, you wrote:
>>Example:
>
>mask!
>>Fulfilling such requirement is extremely stressful, pointless, dangerous and
>>idiotic. The only hypothetical situation in which you could use it would be
>>the case of total sclerosis- going diving & forgeting to put your mask on :-)
>>Even more Navy Seal-like... In my opinion should be banned.
>
>>Luke
>what training agency / club are you talking about ?
>
There must have been some change. For a long time it's been *three* the
lowest and *one* the highest. Recently I found out (to my surprise) that the
degrees changed the way you say (one being the lowest). My fault. Surely I
meant CMAS*** ,comparible to divemaster, isn't it?
The example is true, taken from real life. And it's not even one specific
club- there are many of them.
Luke
Mike Wallace
> I have to disagree with the aversion to the doff & don required by some
> agencies. While it does not have a tremendous amount of practical
> application, it promotes a higher comfort level and gear familiarity. I
> would never encourage that it be done on the checkout dives, but it is a
> must for the pool. I feel the same way about the bailout(as defined by
> the YMCA).
Bill, I think the fact that the ditch & don promotes a higher
comfort level and gear familiarity _is_ a tremendous amount of
practicality for this particular skill. The idea is to get the
student completely comfortable with his/her gear and get their
confidence to a level that will allow them to handle problems that
might crop up.
Curious about your not wanting them to perform the skill on the
checkout dives though. The checkouts are where they get to put all
the skills they have learned in the pool to use in the open water. If
the ditch & don is done on a shallow training platform, why not have
them put it use in the open water also?
=====================================
Mike Wallace Huntsville,Alabama
mwal...@ro.com [\]NAUI
Just another shitty day in paradise!
34 deg 42' N 86 deg 35' W
=====================================
Randall Allen
At 11:43 AM 7/9/97 +0000, Mike wrote:
>> I have to disagree with the aversion to the doff & don required by some
>> agencies. While it does not have a tremendous amount of practical
>> application, it promotes a higher comfort level and gear familiarity. I
>> would never encourage that it be done on the checkout dives, but it is a
>> must for the pool. I feel the same way about the bailout(as defined by
>> the YMCA).
>Curious about your not wanting them to perform the skill on the
>checkout dives though. The checkouts are where they get to put all
>the skills they have learned in the pool to use in the open water. If
>the ditch & don is done on a shallow training platform, why not have
>them put it use in the open water also?
Given that OW dives can be held as deep as 40' as determined by the local
water level (nature), I don't see any reason whatsoever to subject the
STUDENT to what would normally be considered an emergency procedure ONLY.
Sending an inexperienced diver to the surface w/o any possibility of taking
a breath after abandoning the SCUBA unit on the bottom at 40' as a training
exercise is a GROSS ERROR IN JUDGEMENT. The concept of returning to don
the gear at that depth totally escapes me. I think the OW dives at a
reasonably deep level are necessary to provide the comfort the student
needs in their new environment. The D&D skill is so far below the
significant skills list (some of which are components of the D&D) that it
isn't on the radar screen. I'll stress the components and nix the ascent
and descent without gear. IT IS THE GEAR MANIPULATION THAT IS IMPORTANT!!
Naturally, this ignores the fact that visibility in OW conditions often
precludes any chance of finding the gear in the first place. I still fail
to see how going into the water from the surface to get to the gear
remotely resembles any critical safety skill.
Randy
It just doesn't work.... http://www.utsi.com/~rca
I press <Escape>....
Ron Lee
>Given that OW dives can be held as deep as 40' as determined by the local
>water level (nature), I don't see any reason whatsoever to subject the
>STUDENT to what would normally be considered an emergency procedure ONLY.
>Sending an inexperienced diver to the surface w/o any possibility of taking
>a breath after abandoning the SCUBA unit on the bottom at 40' as a training
>exercise is a GROSS ERROR IN JUDGEMENT. The concept of returning to don
>the gear at that depth totally escapes me. I think the OW dives at a
>reasonably deep level are necessary to provide the comfort the student
>needs in their new environment. The D&D skill is so far below the
>significant skills list (some of which are components of the D&D) that it
>isn't on the radar screen. I'll stress the components and nix the ascent
>and descent without gear. IT IS THE GEAR MANIPULATION THAT IS IMPORTANT!!
>
>Naturally, this ignores the fact that visibility in OW conditions often
>precludes any chance of finding the gear in the first place. I still fail
>to see how going into the water from the surface to get to the gear
>remotely resembles any critical safety skill.
>
>Randy
>
typical platform or suspended a few feet above the bottom? If so,
do you have your students do it, and if not, why?
Ron Lee
Randall Allen
At 08:55 PM 7/9/97 -0600, Ron wrote:
>>Given that OW dives can be held as deep as 40' as determined by the local
>>water level (nature), I don't see any reason whatsoever to subject the
>>STUDENT to what would normally be considered an emergency procedure ONLY.
>>Sending an inexperienced diver to the surface w/o any possibility of taking
>>a breath after abandoning the SCUBA unit on the bottom at 40' as a training
>>exercise is a GROSS ERROR IN JUDGEMENT. The concept of returning to don
>>the gear at that depth totally escapes me. I think the OW dives at a
>>reasonably deep level are necessary to provide the comfort the student
>>needs in their new environment. The D&D skill is so far below the
>>significant skills list (some of which are components of the D&D) that it
>>isn't on the radar screen. I'll stress the components and nix the ascent
>>and descent without gear. IT IS THE GEAR MANIPULATION THAT IS IMPORTANT!!
snip...
>Randy, so you see any value to remove and replace underwater..say at a
>typical platform or suspended a few feet above the bottom? If so,
>do you have your students do it, and if not, why?
I suspect you are aware that your question is somewhat off-topic. I have
clearly stated that I consider those skills critical to the development of
the diver's skills, and that the D&D is not.
Now to answer your question....By the time the OW checkout dives occur, the
student is to have successfully performed the skills you describe in a
confined water environment. The primary purpose in the OW checkout dive
(IMNSHO) is PRACTICE and familiarity with the actual diving environment. I
do not believe adding 30 feet of depth makes the weight R&R skill
significantly more valuable than the pool experience, though the risk is
greater if the student drops it and the instructor has to hold them down.
We don't need the increased risk just to say we did it at greater depth.
The complexities are the same as in the pool. Also, the additional depth
and newness of the real environment can dramatically reduce bottom time
relative to the pool time due to air consumption. This would prevent any
opportunity to actually DIVE and practice buoyancy, a skill which has
recently been an issue here. Besides, an 80 cu. ft tank at 40 feet is a
good limit as far as time the new diver can likely be comfortable in many
bodies of water. With that in mind, I am quite comfortable with the fact
that BC R&R and weight R&R skills are not required to be repeated during OW
checkout. I do recommend that the students practice these skills in the
pool at every opportunity.
It is my opinion that we do not expect expert divers as the finished
product of OW classes, but SAFE divers instead. Expertise comes with
practice and that requires with time....more than we have available. By
the time we get to OW, hopefully buoyancy is next on the list of skills
that remain to be mastered in the real environment.
It isn't a perfect world. Thinking that anybody can become (or create) an
expert diver by taking extra risks such as performing some of these skills
at depth for the sake of a more realistic environment is a naive view of
the situation. Remember, we often have several students at depth and that
is not a good place to lose control of the situation. If you think more
practice is necessary, contact all the agencies and request more pool time
be added to the curriculum. That is the skill development site. OW
checkout is for practice in a controlled environment. Adding opportunity
for an accident whose adverse effect on diver safety is aggravated by depth
is inconsistent with our responsibility to use good judgement to protect
the student.
As the Feeesh says....know your limits and dive within them. We are
responsible for knowing the limits of the student and diving within them. I
don't have a problem with that.