The Phantom Menace
Chad Millar
Well, just back from the 12.01am session of TPM - packed theatre, had
to stand in line for a bit over two hours.
Well... my opinion on the movie is that I was utterly underwhelmed. I
went in extremely pessimistic and found that it was neither awful or
excellent.
Theres no overwhelming flaw that wrecks the movie, nor anything to
make it great - it just.. is.
I thought it inferior to both the original Star Wars and Empire
Strikes Back, and around about the quality of Return of the Jedi -
probably slightly less, due to the fact there wasn't really anything
to care about here... it seems like lots of set-up.
As for that... thing. If I see a Gungan in Episode 2, I'll be upset.
If I *hear* a Gungan in Episode 2, I'm flying to America and hunting
George Lucas down.
The CGI effects were of good quality, but there were just too damn
many of them.
Along those lines, lots of little things dragged down the movie for
me, and most of the so-called 'humour' did nothing for me.
Overall:
As a regular movie: 7/10
As a Star Wars movie: 5/10
A long time ago, in a galaxy far away....
Episode 1:
The spoilers start here:
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
The good things:
Neeson's performance as Qui-Gonn was good, and believable. He just
seemed perfect for that role. He was responsible for the only thing I
found humourous, Qui-Gonn's failed attempt at a Jedi mind trick on
Watto. (? - Anakin's owner).
The Qui-Gonn, Obi-wan and Darth Maul duel was good. Its just a shame
that Maul was a total non-entity for the rest of the movie.
Sidious/Palpatine - just hearing that voice sent a little shiver down
the spine.
The not-so-good things:
Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman didn't have much to work with.
The pod race just seemed to drag on and take up too much time.
Jedi must wear Batman-style utility belts. After escaping of the Trade
ship and finding Jar Jar, Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan pull repirators from
nowhere to take a swim to Gungan city.
Anakin was an immaculate conception of the symbiotic midi-chorlans?
Obi-wan analyses Anakins blood to detect these midi-chorlans over a
hand held communicator? What is this, Star Trek: Voyager?
R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we just
have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names Skywalker
and Kenobi before episode 4.
Jar Jar... *sigh*
What *wasn't* wrong with him. I never, ever want to here the word
"meesa" again, and I could do without "poo-doo" and "exsqueeze me" as
well. I found Jar Jar stepping in "poo-doo", Jar Jar getting farted at
by some alien thing, Jar Jar getting his tounge numbed, Jar Jar
getting kicked in the nuts by a droid, and Jar Jar mistakenly
destroying battle droids with his clumsiness extremely UN-humourous.
Stupid lines - "Are you braindead?" - "Thats got to hurt in any
universe" (or words to those effect)
I guess George Lucas was paying tribute to Independance Day with that
space station controling the droids idea. <Gag>
Anakin accidently getting in a fighter, accidently flying into the
base and accidently destroying the station made that entire battle
pretty much worthless.
The boy who played Anakin has a long and prosperous future ahead of
him - just not as an actor. Two of the most forced "Yipee"s I've ever
heard.
What was The Prophecy Of The One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force?
What was The Mystery Of The Sith? I guess we have to wait till the
next movie.
Enough nitpicking for now. Time to get some sleep.
---
Chad Millar
c_mi...@bigpond.com
Pete
Its a film with both excellent scenes, and ones that will make die hard fans
cringe bigtime.
Lightsabre duel is superb, the definite highpoint of the film.
I disagree with the "too much cgi" arguement. Special effects were
outstanding, its just that Lucas seems obsessed with cutesy characters
slipping on bannana skins all over the background. U see this idea of his
forming in the main trilogy special editions..ie a New Hope's Mos Eisley.
Jar Jar is an idiot, but the worst character(s) are without a doubt the
Trade Federation. CHEEZY accents and they look like rubber mannequins. When
they started speaking, you could feel the whole audience in the cinema
thinking "What the hell??". And that damned Pod Racer commentator..argh.
Overall a good film, but def aimed at the kiddies.
Pete
Chad Millar <c_mi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:37556692...@news.bigpond.com...
zaphy
regurgitated the following:
>
>Well, just back from the 12.01am session of TPM - packed theatre, had
>to stand in line for a bit over two hours.
So what was the crowd reaction when it started/finished? Cheers,
clapping etc..??
Paul Andinach
Cheers, clapping, etc. At least at the screening I went to.
Paul
--
"The group had people from 4 U.S. states, England, Scotland, Wales,
Switzerland, Germany, and Italy. Luckily everyone spoke English,
including the Americans."
Timmy the Mediocre
Pete wrote in message <7j4li7$jni$1...@toto.tig.com.au>...
>I too went and saw the midnight session last night...
12.30 pm in a comfortably vacated cinema for me.
>
>Its a film with both excellent scenes, and ones that will make die hard
fans
>cringe bigtime.
That was the problem I thought. It was all just scenes. Excuses for this
and that to happen.
>
>Lightsabre duel is superb, the definite highpoint of the film.
It was well executed, but lacked, almost completely, the aura and mystic
feel of the earleir films' confrontations.
>I disagree with the "too much cgi" arguement.
Too many "BIG" arena shots that jagged the attention and served the story
poorly. Not o mention the dozen or so costume changes for the Queen.
ARRRGHHH!!
Special effects were
>outstanding, its just that Lucas seems obsessed with cutesy characters
>slipping on bannana skins all over the background. U see this idea of his
>forming in the main trilogy special editions..ie a New Hope's Mos Eisley.
FX were first rate. A true indication of the level of technical creativity
being forged, but quite often, they jumped all over the story. When you're
sitting in a cinema thinking, "WOW, what an effect", the filmaker has
failed.
>
>Jar Jar is an idiot, but the worst character(s) are without a doubt the
>Trade Federation. CHEEZY accents and they look like rubber mannequins. When
>they started speaking, you could feel the whole audience in the cinema
>thinking "What the hell??". And that damned Pod Racer commentator..argh.
Jar Jar was useless. I had trouble understanding alot of what it said. But,
I understood enough to realise I was missing more "Cute, Clumsy" cliche
shit.
And the Trade Federation. Is this Star Wars!!!?? Has there ever been a more
bland, non-threatening, and yes, laughable set of villians. Geez, the only
interesting bad guy (Sith) is hardly seen and snuffed out.
>
>Overall a good film, but def aimed at the kiddies.
Well, I thought Lucas tried to be too clever. Trade tariffs, illegal
blockades? Where's the drama, the conflict, the immense sense of destiny?
It was expensive rubbish. What 120 million or so? And to think, another 200
sheets of blank A4 paper would of added only about ten bucks to the budget.
Tim
>
>Pete
>
>Chad Millar <c_mi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>news:37556692...@news.bigpond.com...
>>
>> Well, just back from the 12.01am session of TPM - packed theatre, had
>> to stand in line for a bit over two hours.
>>
>>
Pete
The midnight viewing I attended, had some restrained clapping at the
end..but there was a definite feeling of disappointment in the air.
Still I dont want to put off anybody from seeing it, the film has scenes
which def have a huge impact. Go and enjoy, but dont expect the Best Star
Wars movie ever.
Pete
Paul Andinach <pand...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.3.96.990603...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au...
> On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, zaphy wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:03:47 GMT, c_mi...@bigpond.com (Chad Millar)
> > regurgitated the following:
> >
> > > Well, just back from the 12.01am session of TPM - packed theatre,
> > > had to stand in line for a bit over two hours.
> >
Paul Andinach
> Still I dont want to put off anybody from seeing it, the film has
> scenes which def have a huge impact. Go and enjoy, but dont expect
> the Best Star Wars movie ever.
Of course not. Going to see a movie expecting the best ever is usually
a bad idea, because all you're doing is setting yourself up to be
disappointed.
Chad Millar
wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:03:47 GMT, c_mi...@bigpond.com (Chad Millar)
>regurgitated the following:
>
>>
>>Well, just back from the 12.01am session of TPM - packed theatre, had
>>to stand in line for a bit over two hours.
>
>So what was the crowd reaction when it started/finished? Cheers,
>clapping etc..??
Seemed pretty positive. There was cheering at both beginning and end -
probably a tad more for the start than the end.
The atmosphere was generally positive, with more people liking it than
not.
---
Chad Millar
c_mi...@bigpond.com
Ali Valeh
amazingly, (considering the backlash the character has received), people
actually laughed at Jar Jar and his actions (and there were very few kids at
the screening).
Richard Prekodravac
> On Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:03:47 GMT, c_mi...@bigpond.com (Chad Millar)
> regurgitated the following:
>
> >
> >Well, just back from the 12.01am session of TPM - packed theatre, had
> >to stand in line for a bit over two hours.
>
> So what was the crowd reaction when it started/finished? Cheers,
> clapping etc..??
Cheers for 20th Century Fox.
Cheers for Lucasfilm.
Cheers for "A long long time ago..."
Cheers for "Star Wars"
Cheers for "Episode I"
Cheers for R2D2's appearance
Cheers for
spoilers
spoiler space over
Darth Maul's death.
Rich, friend of Queen Amidala
--
"I just hope I can meet it the same way she did, with the same calm.
Because that's where it's hidden, the immortality I haven't seen."
- The Thin Red Line
liu singloon
http://georges-place.webjump.com/star_wars.htm
--
George
=======================================
- http://georges-place.webjump.com/star_wars.htm
Australian Star Wars Prequels - Prequel Affiliate Network
Webmaster - Jedi Singloon
- http://anime.at/evangelionoz - Neon Genesis Evangelion
=======================================
Richard Prekodravac <sgl...@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:1dsuo92.15z...@frog2.zip.com.au...
Karl J. Ots
I agree.
> The Qui-Gonn, Obi-wan and Darth Maul duel was good. Its just a shame
> that Maul was a total non-entity for the rest of the movie.
Just a passing figure. Serving no purpose but to be killed. Shit happens.
> Sidious/Palpatine - just hearing that voice sent a little shiver down
> the spine.
It's interesting to think about his role in the incident. He manipulated just
about everyone in order to get himself into the Supreme Chancellor's position.
As an aside, as the Senator for Nabu (sp?), does that mean he is actually a native
of Nabu? Did he know that his Queen would not allow herself to be pushed into a
position where she would have to sign a treaty? And ordering the Jedi's to be
killed was just to give them a reason to get her off the planet?
> The not-so-good things:
>
> Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman didn't have much to work with.
Say what? Portman was just brilliant! Strength, resolve, moronic inability to
compromise, all the qualities if a good leader. We'll see more of her, no doubt
(The Queen, that is. Maybe not Portman).
> The pod race just seemed to drag on and take up too much time.
Actually, even though I knew he would have to win, it still got my heart racing.
> Jedi must wear Batman-style utility belts. After escaping of the Trade
> ship and finding Jar Jar, Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan pull repirators from
> nowhere to take a swim to Gungan city.
Be Prepared! You wanna go into battle armed with a Light Saber and a Charming
Attitude? They've probably got all sorts of goodies stashed beneath their robes
(No pun intended :).
> Anakin was an immaculate conception of the symbiotic midi-chorlans?
> Obi-wan analyses Anakins blood to detect these midi-chorlans over a
> hand held communicator? What is this, Star Trek: Voyager?
No, in Voyager they would try to explain how it is possible to transmit
a sample of blood over a distance so they can measure it. Did you notice
much technobabble in this movie?
> R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we just
> have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names Skywalker
> and Kenobi before episode 4.
Obi-Wan would have erased C3PO's memory before he have them both to Leia's
adoptive father. but I suspect he left R2D2's memory alone. Go see the first
movie again, and pay particular attention to the behavior of both R2D2 and Obi-Wan
in regard to each other. Wasn't R2D2 of the opinion that Obi-Wan was his master.
R2D2 always knew what was going on. He was one cluey droid!
> Jar Jar... *sigh*
Oh wow, another Jar Jar basher, how original. OK, so he wasn't the most pleasant
character to watch, but we can't all be heroes. Let's just accept him as a
pathetic looser who got kicked out of his own city and leave it at that.
> Stupid lines - "Are you braindead?" - "Thats got to hurt in any
> universe" (or words to those effect)
Yeah, not to mention 'May the Force be with you' and countless others. This is
Star Wars, not Shakespeare.
> I guess George Lucas was paying tribute to Independance Day with that
> space station controling the droids idea. <Gag>
Huh?
> Anakin accidently getting in a fighter, accidently flying into the
> base and accidently destroying the station made that entire battle
> pretty much worthless.
Were you actually paying attention? One of the themes throughout the entire Star
Wars saga is how the Force influences people. This is no more of an accident then
Qui-Gonn finding Anikin in first place, or when R2D2 and C3PO 'just happened' to
get bought by Luke in the first movie.
> The boy who played Anakin has a long and prosperous future ahead of
> him - just not as an actor. Two of the most forced "Yipee"s I've ever
> heard.
He's just a kid, you know. And I thought he gave a pretty good portrayal. So
There.
> What was The Prophecy Of The One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force?
> What was The Mystery Of The Sith? I guess we have to wait till the
> next movie.
Yeah, we learn 'The Prophecy Of The One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force' in
movies 4, 5, and 6 where Luke Skywalker, son of Anikin, defeats the Dark Side of
the Force and brings balance and harmony to the galaxy. They should be good
movies, can't wait to see them.
> Enough nitpicking for now. Time to get some sleep.
So it wasn't a great movie. Big deal. It was a good story. That's all that
matters (to me, anyway).
G'night!
--
/===========================================\/====================\
| *-- Karl J. Ots --* || Remove the words |
| Computer Systems Engineering (2nd Year) || 'No Spam Please' |
| La Trobe University || from my e-mail |
| Melbourne, Victoria, Australia || address to reply. |
\===========================================/\====================/
Richard Prekodravac
> > So what was the crowd reaction when it started/finished? Cheers,
> > clapping etc..??
>
> Cheers for 20th Century Fox.
> Cheers for Lucasfilm.
> Cheers for "A long long time ago..."
> Cheers for "Star Wars"
> Cheers for "Episode I"
> Cheers for R2D2's appearance
Also cheers for the lightsabre duel done by one of the Obi-Wans and one
of the Darth Mauls. Much fun.
Rich
Chad Millar
Which is a shame, because one, he looks an impressive and quite nasty
character, and the trailers made him out to be more of a character
than he actually was... hell, he had his own ad, 'One Truth' I think
it was. (With the speach about fear)
>> The not-so-good things:
>>
>> Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman didn't have much to work with.
>
>Say what? Portman was just brilliant! Strength, resolve, moronic inability to
>compromise, all the qualities if a good leader.
Oh, I'm not saying she was bad, I'm just saying she had less to do
than other characters, same as Obi-Wan.
> We'll see more of her, no doubt
>(The Queen, that is. Maybe not Portman).
No doubt we will be seeing her again.. she and Ewan McGregor have
signed on for all three prequels.
>> Jedi must wear Batman-style utility belts. After escaping of the Trade
>> ship and finding Jar Jar, Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan pull repirators from
>> nowhere to take a swim to Gungan city.
>
>Be Prepared! You wanna go into battle armed with a Light Saber and a Charming
>Attitude? They've probably got all sorts of goodies stashed beneath their robes
>(No pun intended :).
They must have a lot of things stashed in there, unless they regulary
take respirators to negotiations. :)
>> Anakin was an immaculate conception of the symbiotic midi-chorlans?
>> Obi-wan analyses Anakins blood to detect these midi-chorlans over a
>> hand held communicator? What is this, Star Trek: Voyager?
>
>No, in Voyager they would try to explain how it is possible to transmit
>a sample of blood over a distance so they can measure it. Did you notice
>much technobabble in this movie?
Nope. The Midi-Clorian explaination was the only thing which bothered
me.
>> R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we just
>> have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names Skywalker
>> and Kenobi before episode 4.
>
>Obi-Wan would have erased C3PO's memory before he have them both to Leia's
>adoptive father. but I suspect he left R2D2's memory alone. Go see the first
>movie again, and pay particular attention to the behavior of both R2D2 and Obi-Wan
>in regard to each other. Wasn't R2D2 of the opinion that Obi-Wan was his master.
>R2D2 always knew what was going on. He was one cluey droid!
True... Obi-Wan convincingly acted as if he never knew R2. :)
I haven't watched the original trilogy for a while though, so I have
to ask, how many times if at all do we see R2 or C3P0 with Darth
Vader? I'm sure C3P0 will have his memory wiped, but wouldn't Vader
remember his childhood friend? :)
>> Jar Jar... *sigh*
>
>Oh wow, another Jar Jar basher, how original.
Its got nothing to do with being original or being in a herd.. I just
outright disliked him.
>OK, so he wasn't the most pleasant
>character to watch, but we can't all be heroes. Let's just accept him as a
>pathetic looser who got kicked out of his own city and leave it at that.
I would have, but he and his race were given an Ewok style role. Erk.
There was actually a cheer from someone when Sidious gave the order to
"Eliminate them.. all of them" <g>
>> Stupid lines - "Are you braindead?" - "Thats got to hurt in any
>> universe" (or words to those effect)
>
>Yeah, not to mention 'May the Force be with you' and countless others.
Respectfully, I hold "May the force be with you" in a much better
light than "Are you braindead?"
>> I guess George Lucas was paying tribute to Independance Day with that
>> space station controling the droids idea. <Gag>
>
>Huh?
In Independance Day, the alien fleet which was destroying Earths
cities was controlled by a mothership, which the main characters flew
into and blew up, disabling the entire fleet.
>> Anakin accidently getting in a fighter, accidently flying into the
>> base and accidently destroying the station made that entire battle
>> pretty much worthless.
>
>Were you actually paying attention? One of the themes throughout the entire Star
>Wars saga is how the Force influences people. This is no more of an accident then
>Qui-Gonn finding Anikin in first place, or when R2D2 and C3PO 'just happened' to
>get bought by Luke in the first movie.
But it was so accidental.. It would have been more effective if Anakin
had known what he was doing.. it would have given much more strength
to the view that he was so strong with the force.. same with when he
left his mother.. it would have been more effective if Anakin *knew*
what would happen in the future.
>> The boy who played Anakin has a long and prosperous future ahead of
>> him - just not as an actor. Two of the most forced "Yipee"s I've ever
>> heard.
>
>He's just a kid, you know. And I thought he gave a pretty good portrayal. So
>There.
Nah, didn't work for me. (Nyaa Nyaa!)
>> What was The Prophecy Of The One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force?
>> What was The Mystery Of The Sith? I guess we have to wait till the
>> next movie.
>
>Yeah, we learn 'The Prophecy Of The One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force' in
>movies 4, 5, and 6 where Luke Skywalker, son of Anikin, defeats the Dark Side of
>the Force and brings balance and harmony to the galaxy. They should be good
>movies, can't wait to see them.
I can't wait either, but I guess I didn't really like that Ep 1 was
more setup than actual story itself.
Joe Lipson
> On Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:03:47 GMT, c_mi...@bigpond.com (Chad Millar)
> regurgitated the following:
>
> >
> >Well, just back from the 12.01am session of TPM - packed theatre, had
> >to stand in line for a bit over two hours.
>
> So what was the crowd reaction when it started/finished? Cheers,
> clapping etc..??
Broadway 6:00pm 3/6/99
clapping and cheering when 20th century fox came on, then the same when
the big STAR WARS came on.
some clapping at the end.
Joe
Robbie Matthews
>On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Pete wrote:
>
>> Still I dont want to put off anybody from seeing it, the film has
>> scenes which def have a huge impact. Go and enjoy, but dont expect
>> the Best Star Wars movie ever.
>
>Of course not. Going to see a movie expecting the best ever is usually
>a bad idea, because all you're doing is setting yourself up to be
>disappointed.
<snip>
Went and saw it last night, and while it didn't live up to the hype (what
movie possible could?) I quite enjoyed it.
Throttle your expectations back to something sensible, and it's good fun.
Mind you , it tells me how much Star Wars has entered my psyche when I found
myself tearing up at the first appearance of R2D2. My wife reacted the same
way.
It didn't have the sheer fun of the original Star Wars movie, and I missed
the character interactions. The young Obi-Wan was a bit of a cold fish. Had
potential, but I don't feel warm and fuzzy about him yet. And it's a bit
hard to get really fond of Anakin when you know what is to become of him...
On the other hand, if you look at it as setting the stage for what is to
come, it stands up a lot better. Star Wars EP 4 was originally chosen as the
first one to film because it was the one most likely to stand on its own. SW
was always conceived as a vast saga (or so I have heard)
Snippet of trivia: Most of the hype has been generated by people OTHER than
LucasFilms. I hear that they stopped spending money on advertising about two
months after they started, because everyone else was running with the story.
I mean, when Star Wars is being written up by Vogue and the Bulletin, who
needs to SPEND money on advertising?
Robbie
Robbie Matthews
>>Chad Millar wrote:
>>> A long time ago, in a galaxy far away....
>>>
>>> Episode 1:
>>>
>>> The spoilers start here:
>>>
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
<snip>
>>> R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we just
>>> have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names Skywalker
>>> and Kenobi before episode 4.
>>
>>Obi-Wan would have erased C3PO's memory before he have them both to Leia's
>>adoptive father. but I suspect he left R2D2's memory alone. Go see the
first
>>movie again, and pay particular attention to the behavior of both R2D2 and
Obi-Wan
>>in regard to each other. Wasn't R2D2 of the opinion that Obi-Wan was his
master.
>>R2D2 always knew what was going on. He was one cluey droid!
>
>True... Obi-Wan convincingly acted as if he never knew R2. :)
I don't care that they added little to the story, it was good to see them.
And if I recall correctly, Obi-wan said something along the lines of:
'I don't recall owning any droids... at least, not for a long, long time...'
and then looks pensive. He looked at R2D2 as though he had, in fact, seen
him somewhere before.
If it was a long time ago, he may have taken a while to remember.
At any rate, that's my opinion.
Robbie.
PS: I didn't think Jar Jar was that bad. Lucas has always liked sticking
cute characters in his movies. So?
Alister Graham
spoiler space
.....
.....look out, here it comes......
>>> The Qui-Gonn, Obi-wan and Darth Maul duel was good. Its just a shame
>>> that Maul was a total non-entity for the rest of the movie.
Lightsaber duels - great action, but did you notice one big thing was
missing??
Nobody said a bloody word!!!!!
In Eps 4, 5 and 6 whenever there was a duel, the opponents would always trade
Errol Flynn style taunts like Vader's 'Your powers are weak old man' or Luke's
'You'll find I'm full of surprises'. Some of the best drama and biggest
revelations came out of these verbal spars.
In Ep 1, it's all action and no talk !
Geez, the Jedi Council wanted to find out who the hell this guy Maul was - why
didn't Liam and Ewan just ask him??!!! I know he's meant to be mysterious, but
the guy can speak - give him a chance!
There was a point when Obi-Wan and Maul crossed sabers close to each other's
faces - for starters:
Maul: "Now we are even, apprentice against apprentice."
(woo-woo)
Maul: "Your *master* was no match for the skills of an apprentice!"
Obi-Wan: "Only an apprentice of evil, Darth"
Maybe this is still on the cutting room floor? Or should I say, the hard
drive?
:)
Just a vent.....
Al
Zion
:>Just got back from seeing it and I thought it was pretty good (honestly) -
:>amazingly, (considering the backlash the character has received), people
:>actually laughed at Jar Jar and his actions (and there were very few kids at
:>the screening).
The only problem I had with Jar Jar, was most of his dialogue was very hard
to understand. And some of the bits I did understand were actually quite
funny. Maybe you can only hear him clearly in cinemas equipped with a
certified THX sound system?
Peter.
Ian Galbraith
:Well, just back from the 12.01am session of TPM - packed theatre, had
:to stand in line for a bit over two hours.
10.00 Friday morning, no queue. only about 50 people in a Hoyts Cinemaxx
cinema.
:Well... my opinion on the movie is that I was utterly underwhelmed. I
:went in extremely pessimistic and found that it was neither awful or
:excellent.
I agree with you. The movie was enjoyable, but not great.
:Theres no overwhelming flaw that wrecks the movie, nor anything to
:make it great - it just.. is.
The story is good, the dialogue...eh, on the level of the previous films.
IMHO the direction is what lets it down. Its quite obvious how long its
been since Lucas directed. The movie jumped from situation to situation
without sustaining any tension for its whole length. Individual sequences
were great, but they didn't flow smoothly. Jar Jar was way too pervasive. I
didn't mind him tagging along but he was in your face the whole movie. Qui
Gon's death didn't have nearly the pathos and impact it should have had.
All of which can be attributed to Lucas's direction.
:I thought it inferior to both the original Star Wars and Empire
:Strikes Back, and around about the quality of Return of the Jedi -
:probably slightly less, due to the fact there wasn't really anything
:to care about here... it seems like lots of set-up.
Better than Jedi for mine.
:As for that... thing. If I see a Gungan in Episode 2, I'll be upset.
:If I *hear* a Gungan in Episode 2, I'm flying to America and hunting
:George Lucas down.
The gungans apart from Jar Jar weren't too bad.
: The spoilers start here:
:The good things:
:Neeson's performance as Qui-Gonn was good, and believable. He just
:seemed perfect for that role. He was responsible for the only thing I
:found humourous, Qui-Gonn's failed attempt at a Jedi mind trick on
:Watto. (? - Anakin's owner).
Agreed, he had the right amount of gravitas as Qui Gon.
:The Qui-Gonn, Obi-wan and Darth Maul duel was good. Its just a shame
:that Maul was a total non-entity for the rest of the movie.
Talk about a complete bluff. From the advertising he should have been as
big as Darth Vader in Ep4.
:Sidious/Palpatine - just hearing that voice sent a little shiver down
:the spine.
I'd like to know more of his background.
:The not-so-good things:
:Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman didn't have much to work with.
I thought both were very good, although Obi Wan should have had more screen
time. Portman's perfor mance was good although I question a 14 year old
being democratically elected Queen and coming up with the battle plans at
the end. It would have been far better for Qui Gon, Obi Wan and The Captain
to have come up with the plan.
:The pod race just seemed to drag on and take up too much time.
It was starting to drag, but was still exciting for most of its length.
:Jedi must wear Batman-style utility belts. After escaping of the Trade
:ship and finding Jar Jar, Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan pull repirators from
:nowhere to take a swim to Gungan city.
Didn't bother me.
:Anakin was an immaculate conception of the symbiotic midi-chorlans?
:Obi-wan analyses Anakins blood to detect these midi-chorlans over a
:hand held communicator? What is this, Star Trek: Voyager?
My thoughts exactly, there was no need for explanations, and WTF is up with
the immaculate conception. He's the father of the hero not the hero
himself.
[snip]
:I guess George Lucas was paying tribute to Independance Day with that
:space station controling the droids idea. <Gag>
A bit stupid. Why not have them capture the viceroy and have the ship order
the droids to stand down.
: Anakin accidently getting in a fighter, accidently flying into the
:base and accidently destroying the station made that entire battle
:pretty much worthless.
That battle was pretty badly done. He should have had a look at B5 for how
to do space battles, almost any across the whole series is better than
that.
:The boy who played Anakin has a long and prosperous future ahead of
:him - just not as an actor. Two of the most forced "Yipee"s I've ever
:heard.
DId you see the Ch 10 special. He's a precocious brat.
:What was The Prophecy Of The One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force?
I find this one funny. Currently good is in ascendance, to bring balance to
the force he has to be evil.
:What was The Mystery Of The Sith? I guess we have to wait till the
:next movie.
I wonder if the Sith comics are canon? As I said above I'd like to see more
of the background of Palpatine and the Sith.
:Enough nitpicking for now. Time to get some sleep.
Some of my complaints are nit picking but when they add up.....
Be Seeing You
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@ozonline.com.au ICQ#: 7849631
"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination
is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination
encircles the world." - Albert Einstein
Chad Millar
wrote:
>
>spoiler space
>.....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.....look out, here it comes......
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> The Qui-Gonn, Obi-wan and Darth Maul duel was good. Its just a shame
>>>> that Maul was a total non-entity for the rest of the movie.
>
>Lightsaber duels - great action, but did you notice one big thing was
>missing??
>
>Nobody said a bloody word!!!!!
I liked that alot!
Maul's pacing, Qui-Gonn's meditating and Obi-Wan's impatience when
stuck behind the force fields was priceless.
Paul Andinach
> Chad Millar wrote:
>
> > A long time ago, in a galaxy far away....
> >
> > Episode 1:
> >
> > The spoilers start here:
> >
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
-> > *
> > The not-so-good things:
> >
> > Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman didn't have much to work with.
>
> Say what? Portman was just brilliant! Strength, resolve, moronic
> inability to compromise, all the qualities if a good leader. We'll
> see more of her, no doubt
I agree.
> (The Queen, that is. Maybe not Portman).
ISTR that Portman's been signed for all three movies.
> > The pod race just seemed to drag on and take up too much time.
>
> Actually, even though I knew he would have to win, it still got my
> heart racing.
Same here.
> > Jedi must wear Batman-style utility belts. After escaping of the
> > Trade ship and finding Jar Jar, Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan pull
> > repirators from nowhere to take a swim to Gungan city.
>
> Be Prepared! You wanna go into battle armed with a Light Saber and
> a Charming Attitude? They've probably got all sorts of goodies
> stashed beneath their robes
And I don't think it was the first time we'd seen those respirators,
either (remember the room full of poisonous gas?).
> > R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we
> > just have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names
> > Skywalker and Kenobi before episode 4.
>
> Obi-Wan would have erased C3PO's memory before he have them both to
> Leia's adoptive father. but I suspect he left R2D2's memory alone.
I don't think Obi-Wan actually had much to do with where C3PO and R2D2
ended up - it's just coincidence (or the Force) that they're the ones
Leia gives the message to.
According to what 3PO says in ep4, they belong to "Captain Antilles",
and they're not well acquainted with the Princess.
Nothing special needs to happen to the droids' memories, either - C3PO
and Obi Wan didn't actually encounter one another in ep1, and since
none of us speak Astromech Droid, we've got no reason to believe R2D2
*didn't* remember who Obi Wan was.
> Go see the first movie again, and pay particular attention to the
> behavior of both R2D2 and Obi-Wan in regard to each other. Wasn't
> R2D2 of the opinion that Obi-Wan was his master.
I think that was just a ruse to get close enough to Obi Wan to deliver
his message.
One could, however, read something into Obi Wan addressing R2D2 as "my
little friend"...
Paul Andinach
> On Fri, 04 Jun 1999 03:46:31 +1000, "Karl J. Ots"
> <kj...@NOgem.SpaMoverhere.PleasEorg> wrote:
>
> >> A long time ago, in a galaxy far away....
> >>
> >> Episode 1:
> >>
> >> The spoilers start here:
> >>
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
-> >> *
[Darth Maul]
> Which is a shame, because one, he looks an impressive and quite
> nasty character, and the trailers made him out to be more of a
> character than he actually was...
True. Oh, well.
[Queen Amidala]
> Oh, I'm not saying she was bad, I'm just saying she had less to do
> than other characters, same as Obi-Wan.
True again. Oh, well again.
> > Be Prepared! You wanna go into battle armed with a Light Saber
> > and a Charming Attitude? They've probably got all sorts of
> > goodies stashed beneath their robes
>
> They must have a lot of things stashed in there, unless they
> regulary take respirators to negotiations. :)
Maybe they regularly take repirators anywhere that's going to require
staying in space in something that could get a hole in it?
> I haven't watched the original trilogy for a while though, so I have
> to ask, how many times if at all do we see R2 or C3P0 with Darth
> Vader? I'm sure C3P0 will have his memory wiped, but wouldn't Vader
> remember his childhood friend? :)
A quick ruffle through my memory doesn't come up with any occasions
when either of the droids came face to face with Vader.
Anyway, even if Vader remembers C3PO, what's to say he'll recognise
him? These protocol droids, they all look the same.
[Anakin blowing up the space station]
> But it was so accidental.. It would have been more effective if
> Anakin had known what he was doing..
He did know what he was doing. He didn't know how to fly the fighter
he was in, but he knew what he was trying to do with it.
> it would have given much more strength to the view that he was so
> strong with the force.. same with when he left his mother.. it would
> have been more effective if Anakin *knew* what would happen in the
> future.
If there's one thing people-who-are-strong-in-the-Force have
historically been bad at, it's knowing what's going to happen in their
own futures. Look at ep6 - Vader and the Emperor had no idea what was
going to happen to *them*.
Paul Andinach
-> spoiler space
-> .....
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
-> .....look out, here it comes......
->
->
->
->
->
> > The Qui-Gonn, Obi-wan and Darth Maul duel was good. Its just a
> > shame that Maul was a total non-entity for the rest of the movie.
>
> Lightsaber duels - great action, but did you notice one big thing
> was missing??
>
> Nobody said a bloody word!!!!!
>
> In Eps 4, 5 and 6 whenever there was a duel, the opponents would
> always trade Errol Flynn style taunts like Vader's 'Your powers are
> weak old man' or Luke's 'You'll find I'm full of surprises'.
Yes, but all the duellists in Eps 4, 5, and 6 were either old men or
untrained boys.
In a duel between two swordmasters in their prime, one spends all
one's time concentrating on the fight. Trying to come up with a clever
remark is a pointless distraction that will probably get you killed.
> Geez, the Jedi Council wanted to find out who the hell this guy Maul
> was - why didn't Liam and Ewan just ask him??!!!
Because they thought he wouldn't bother answering?
Daniel Frankham
(after the spoiler space)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I noticed the film took great pains to avoid some of the ethical
criticisms which have been levelled at the earlier films. (Admittedly
a lot of this criticism has been more humorous in intent than anything
else).
Firstly, it's almost become a cliche to express concern at the deaths
of the civilians aboard the Death Stars in _Star Wars_ and Return of
the Jedi. In each case, apart from badass military guys, there's
clearly lots and lots of other people aboard -- all those technical
guys and doubtless lots of service industry types meeting the needs of
the soldiers and technicians. Do they all deserve to die? (In that
case perhaps everyone who works in the defence industry, helping to
produce devices of destruction, does?) This is an issue that the
original movies either didn't consider, or deliberately shied away
from.
Secondly, the original trilogy creates an entire class of people who
it's OK for heroes to kill -- the stormtroopers. Robber of their
humanity by their body-covering costumes, it's as though the audience
is supposed to not regard them as human, just because we can't see
their faces. But how many of these poor lads are draftees, or dumb
kids who signed up after watching the depredations of those evil
rebels in propaganda films? We'll never know. All action movies need
guys like this; people who are established as baddies, and who can
thus be slaughtered en masse by good guy heroes.
_Phantom Menace_ seems to have been written with these ethical
concerns very much in mind; hardly a living being is killed by our
heroes, and those few who are, are for the most part individually
established as bad fellows who deserve what they get. The stormtrooper
problem is neatly avoided through the employment of armies of droids,
the deaths of which are unlikely to cause many ethical squirms among
human audiences. (Despite the attempt to imbue several droids with
individual personalities, and to treat them as artificial life forms
worthy of some respect in several of the SW films.)
Then _The Phantom Menace_'s Death Star equivalent, the big ship that
controls the battle droids, is home to only a few life forms, none of
whom could be considered by the most liberal-minded audience to be
"innocents"; again, the ethical issues are nicely avoided by manning
the ship with droids.
Is this a good thing? Does it reduce the impact of a battle when it's
merely people vs robots? Has Lucas gone soft? The first sign of this
trend was in the Star Wars special edition, where Han Solo's
pre-emptive strike against Greedo was retconned so that Greedo shot
first. Apparently our heroes have to be ethically spotless these days.
Is it dangerous to suggest that people can fight a war without ever
having to compromise themselves? The myth and folklore on which the
Star Wars films draw seldom shies away from presenting the awful
reality of war. Can we expect a Special Special Edition of the
original trilogy, in which the Stormtroopers are replaced with droids,
the Death Stars repopulated with droids, the fighter ships piloted by
droids... and so on?
--
Daniel Frankham
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We love television because television brings us a world in which
television does not exist. In fact, deep in their hearts, this is what
the spuds crave most: a rich, new, participatory life.
(Barbara Ehrenreich)
Jason Stokes
<pand...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
>In a duel between two swordmasters in their prime, one spends all
>one's time concentrating on the fight.
A duel between two swordsmasters in their prime isn't likely to last very
long anyway. This is Hollywood, remember?
--
Jason Stokes: js...@bluedog.apana.org.au
Brett O'Callaghan
>A quick ruffle through my memory doesn't come up with any occasions
>when either of the droids came face to face with Vader.
"Empire", when C3P0 is being carried around by chewbacca and Han is
being frozen.
>Anyway, even if Vader remembers C3PO, what's to say he'll recognise
>him? These protocol droids, they all look the same.
I agree.
Byeeeee.
--
Doctor Who Database for W95/98/NT - http://www.cbl.com.au/~boc/
Richard Prekodravac
> On Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:03:47 GMT, c_mi...@bigpond.com (Chad Millar) wrote:
>
> :Well, just back from the 12.01am session of TPM - packed theatre, had
> :to stand in line for a bit over two hours.
Actually at Hoyts Sydney Centre they let us in at 10:30 so we at least
had good seating.
> 10.00 Friday morning, no queue. only about 50 people in a Hoyts Cinemaxx
> cinema.
That sounds rather unfortunate to me.
> :Well... my opinion on the movie is that I was utterly underwhelmed. I
> :went in extremely pessimistic and found that it was neither awful or
> :excellent.
>
> I agree with you. The movie was enjoyable, but not great.
I agree from the first viewing, but from the second viewing I though it
was a fantastic film. I think a second viewing is justified because you
can go to it without any thoughts of hype, pessimism or whatever you
thought when you went to see it.
> :Theres no overwhelming flaw that wrecks the movie, nor anything to
> :make it great - it just.. is.
>
> The story is good, the dialogue...eh, on the level of the previous films.
>
> IMHO the direction is what lets it down. Its quite obvious how long its
> been since Lucas directed. The movie jumped from situation to situation
> without sustaining any tension for its whole length. Individual sequences
> were great, but they didn't flow smoothly. Jar Jar was way too pervasive. I
> didn't mind him tagging along but he was in your face the whole movie.
He isn't actually. Consider the key scenes of Anakin leaving his mum,
the jedi council talks, the senate talks, the taking of the palace.
> Qui Gon's death didn't have nearly the pathos and impact it should have
> had. All of which can be attributed to Lucas's direction.
I thought Qui-Gon's death did have the impact, rarely in film or life do
you see two males has such a strong and caring relationship as the one
between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. I was suprised to see Obi-Wan cry.
> :I thought it inferior to both the original Star Wars and Empire
> :Strikes Back, and around about the quality of Return of the Jedi -
> :probably slightly less, due to the fact there wasn't really anything
> :to care about here... it seems like lots of set-up.
>
> Better than Jedi for mine.
As a film the best of the quartet but in terms of Star Wars films, equal
with Star Wars.
There's is a great deal of subtlety, in both the special effects and the
acting. Watching Liam is an absolute treat. When Padme reveals herself,
Qui-Gon gives Obi-Wan a "told you so" look.
> :As for that... thing. If I see a Gungan in Episode 2, I'll be upset.
> :If I *hear* a Gungan in Episode 2, I'm flying to America and hunting
> :George Lucas down.
>
> The gungans apart from Jar Jar weren't too bad.
Jar-Jar is wonderful, quite an interesting character to add to the SW
universe, and anyone who says otherwise is a Mr Grumpy :)
>
> : The spoilers start here:
Hmm if you mention Qui-Gon's death above is this necessary :)
> :The Qui-Gonn, Obi-wan and Darth Maul duel was good. Its just a shame
> :that Maul was a total non-entity for the rest of the movie.
>
> Talk about a complete bluff. From the advertising he should have been as
> big as Darth Vader in Ep4.
That's to do with your preconceptions surely? The Sith mystery is a
mystery and going around with big neon signs and doing the can-can
wouldn't help.
> :Sidious/Palpatine - just hearing that voice sent a little shiver down
> :the spine.
>
> I'd like to know more of his background.
>
> :The not-so-good things:
>
> :Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman didn't have much to work with.
>
> I thought both were very good, although Obi Wan should have had more screen
> time. Portman's perfor mance was good although I question a 14 year old
> being democratically elected Queen and coming up with the battle plans at
> the end. It would have been far better for Qui Gon, Obi Wan and The Captain
> to have come up with the plan.
Kundun
> :The pod race just seemed to drag on and take up too much time.
>
> It was starting to drag, but was still exciting for most of its length.
No problem for me.
> :Jedi must wear Batman-style utility belts. After escaping of the Trade
> :ship and finding Jar Jar, Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan pull repirators from
> :nowhere to take a swim to Gungan city.
>
> Didn't bother me.
I think the point here is to show that the Jedi were just as
technologically advanced in the days of the old Republic as everyone
else. What happens in 40 years for all this technology to disappear?
> :Anakin was an immaculate conception of the symbiotic midi-chorlans?
> :Obi-wan analyses Anakins blood to detect these midi-chorlans over a
> :hand held communicator? What is this, Star Trek: Voyager?
See above. A part explanation of the force from a scientific point of
view makes sense. 40 years later and its more about faith than science.
<insert Bab5 discussion about faith>
> My thoughts exactly, there was no need for explanations, and WTF is up with
> the immaculate conception. He's the father of the hero not the hero
> himself.
I agree no need for explanations but as I mention above it does have its
purpose.
I disagree with your hero bit. Too early to say I think. Hamlet is the
hero even if things don't quite qorkout in Denmark.
> [snip]
>
> :I guess George Lucas was paying tribute to Independance Day with that
> :space station controling the droids idea. <Gag>
>
> A bit stupid. Why not have them capture the viceroy and have the ship order
> the droids to stand down.
I think it was a comic point. And IQ4 is long forgotten.
> : Anakin accidently getting in a fighter, accidently flying into the
> :base and accidently destroying the station made that entire battle
> :pretty much worthless.
In the Jedi universe there are no coincidences and no accidents.
> That battle was pretty badly done. He should have had a look at B5 for how
> to do space battles, almost any across the whole series is better than
> that.
???
> :The boy who played Anakin has a long and prosperous future ahead of
> :him - just not as an actor. Two of the most forced "Yipee"s I've ever
> :heard.
The yipee's are painful, but the performance is actually enjoyable on
second viewing.
> Did you see the Ch 10 special. He's a precocious brat.
>
> :What was The Prophecy Of The One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force?
>
> I find this one funny. Currently good is in ascendance, to bring balance to
> the force he has to be evil.
The force was in balance until the sith return. Vader brings balance by
the death of the Emperor. I can't remember where I read that.
Richard Prekodravac
> On Fri, 04 Jun 1999 03:46:31 +1000, "Karl J. Ots"
> <kj...@NOgem.SpaMoverhere.PleasEorg> wrote:
>
> >Chad Millar wrote:
> >> A long time ago, in a galaxy far away....
> >>
> >> Episode 1:
> >>
> >> The spoilers start here:
> >>
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >>
> >> R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we just
> >> have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names Skywalker
> >> and Kenobi before episode 4.
> >
> >Obi-Wan would have erased C3PO's memory before he have them both to
> >Leia's adoptive father. but I suspect he left R2D2's memory alone. Go
> >see the first movie again, and pay particular attention to the behavior
> >of both R2D2 and Obi-Wan in regard to each other. Wasn't R2D2 of the
> >opinion that Obi-Wan was his master. R2D2 always knew what was going on.
> >He was one cluey droid!
>
> True... Obi-Wan convincingly acted as if he never knew R2. :)
>
> I haven't watched the original trilogy for a while though, so I have
> to ask, how many times if at all do we see R2 or C3P0 with Darth
> Vader? I'm sure C3P0 will have his memory wiped, but wouldn't Vader
> remember his childhood friend? :)
There's more to Obi-Wan's first glance at R2 than what may have first
been seen.
> >Were you actually paying attention? One of the themes throughout the
> >entire Star Wars saga is how the Force influences people. This is no
> >more of an accident then Qui-Gonn finding Anikin in first place, or when
> >R2D2 and C3PO 'just happened' to get bought by Luke in the first movie.
>
> But it was so accidental.. It would have been more effective if Anakin
> had known what he was doing..
But then you'd get Wesley Crusher syndrome. I've heard from people who
thought it better that it was accidental.
Shay Gordon-Brown
be found in the various star wars novel. They are not cannon but unless
GL states something different, they are a fairly reliable source. I'll
address a couple of points below.
Chad Millar wrote:
> I thought it inferior to both the original Star Wars and Empire
> Strikes Back, and around about the quality of Return of the Jedi -
> probably slightly less, due to the fact there wasn't really anything
> to care about here... it seems like lots of set-up.
There was a lot of setup. This is not a bad thing as most people don't
know the basis for many of the 'knowns' in eps 4,5 and 6. Remember when
people watch the series in the future they will watch from episode one.
> As for that... thing. If I see a Gungan in Episode 2, I'll be upset.
> If I *hear* a Gungan in Episode 2, I'm flying to America and hunting
> George Lucas down.
I don't know how GL is going to use Jar-Jar again, but if Amidala is
still Queen of Naboo, a Gungan manservant is a likely option.
> A long time ago, in a galaxy far away....
>
> Episode 1:
>
> The spoilers start here:
>
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
>
> The good things:
>
> The Qui-Gonn, Obi-wan and Darth Maul duel was good. Its just a shame
> that Maul was a total non-entity for the rest of the movie.
Maul is only important as the tool to show us how both the Sith the jedi
work. For the Sith we understand about the fact that they exist only as
the Master and the Apprentice. As for the jedi we get to see them in
action in the golden years of the republic. In their prime, they are
fighting wrongs and serving the people. They are master swordsmen.
That's all we need to know really.
> Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman didn't have much to work with.
It is the set-up and as such everyone has there only little bit to take
into the next movies. They will both come into their own when there
stories need to be told.
> The pod race just seemed to drag on and take up too much time.
You would have hated it then if the first pod-race made the final cut
then. (This would have been at the beginning of the movie when Anakin
crashed Watto's pod) There were a few good plot points put into the
first pod race that carried over to the second.
> Jedi must wear Batman-style utility belts. After escaping of the Trade
> ship and finding Jar Jar, Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan pull repirators from
> nowhere to take a swim to Gungan city.
Yes they do. Like boy scouts they are always prepared.
> Anakin was an immaculate conception of the symbiotic midi-chorlans?
> Obi-wan analyses Anakins blood to detect these midi-chorlans over a
> hand held communicator? What is this, Star Trek: Voyager?
I've addressed this elsewhere. It is a very important set-up point.
> R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we just
> have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names Skywalker
> and Kenobi before episode 4.
George Lucas stated many years ago that the only characters to be in
every Star Wars movie was the droids. They are for want of a better
phrase they are the storyboards of the series. They bind the episodes
together. If you follow their story you would actually see the Star Wars
story unveil.
> Anakin accidently getting in a fighter, accidently flying into the
> base and accidently destroying the station made that entire battle
> pretty much worthless.
No. To paraphrase Qui-Gonn there is a reason for everything. It wasn't
an accident that Qui-Gonn met up with Jar-Jar. Jar-Jar was the one who
solved the problem of freeing Naboo as he told the Queen about the
Gungan army. It wasn't just an accident that Qui-Gonn and Amidala met
Anakin either. There is a guiding hand as it is all fated in some way.
Destiny is the underlying theme of all the movies.
> What was The Prophecy Of The One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force?
> What was The Mystery Of The Sith? I guess we have to wait till the
> next movie.
It is just a prophecy obviously a very important prophecy is it involves
the downfall of the republic. Perhaps we will learn of it in it's
entirety further into the movies.
There is no mystery of the Sith. The first Dark Lords of the Sith
(Darths) were jedi who dabbled in the dark side of the force.
Apparently the Sith were creatures who lived with or were 'dark
forces'. (My memory is a little shady in this area I will have to go
and do some reading). These fallen jedi coveted the abilities of the
Sith. They eventually became very large in number and the jedi and
sith lords had frequent clashes even full on battles. There are two
streams of thought about the next bit. Either only one of the Darth's
escaped death at the hands of the Jedi or he Sith went elsewhere and
killed themselves off. I like this version better as it explains why
there always is a master and an apprentice. The can't peacefully
coexist with any more than two of their number as the infighting and
backstabbing will lead to death. Also the apprentice will variably kill
his master and then take on an underling for himself.
That's basically everything in a nutshell. Hope it helped.
Shay
Shay Gordon-Brown
>
> Chad Millar wrote:
> > A long time ago, in a galaxy far away....
> >
> > Episode 1:
> >
> > The spoilers start here:
> >
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> >
> > The good things:
> > R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we just
> > have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names Skywalker
> > and Kenobi before episode 4.
>
> Obi-Wan would have erased C3PO's memory before he have them both to Leia's
> adoptive father. but I suspect he left R2D2's memory alone. Go see the first
> movie again, and pay particular attention to the behavior of both R2D2 and Obi-Wan
> in regard to each other. Wasn't R2D2 of the opinion that Obi-Wan was his master.
> R2D2 always knew what was going on. He was one cluey droid!
Not exactly right but almost there. R2-D2 went to find Obi-Wan. Luke
supposed from that fact that R2-D2 was stolen and that he was the
rightful property of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan replied that he 'didn't
recall owning any droids' yet he referred to R2-D2 as his 'little
friend' in a knowledgeable way. Basically Obi-Wan realised who R2 was,
technically he never owned the droid, (it was the property of Naboo), so
everything was correct from a certain point of view.
Shay
Shay Gordon-Brown
>
> On Fri, 04 Jun 1999 03:46:31 +1000, "Karl J. Ots"
> <kj...@NOgem.SpaMoverhere.PleasEorg> wrote:
>
> >Chad Millar wrote:
> >> A long time ago, in a galaxy far away....
> >>
> >> Episode 1:
> >>
> >> The spoilers start here:
> >>
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *
> to ask, how many times if at all do we see R2 or C3P0 with Darth
> Vader? I'm sure C3P0 will have his memory wiped, but wouldn't Vader
> remember his childhood friend? :)
Vader never saw C3P0. Vader and his Stormtroopers boarded Leia's ship
and C3P0 and R2D2 left the escape pod moments later. I don't recall any
meeting of the two. Even if Vader saw C3P0 would he recognize him, as
from what I've seen apart from being gold or silver all protocol droids
look the same.
Shay
Shay
Shay Gordon-Brown
It has been suggested that Storm Troopers are clones, which is why they
are faceless.
Firstly, the ship Anakin blew up was controlling droids not necessarily
populated by them.
Secondly, in the book they describe in detail the first and second pod
races (only the second was in the movie) I'm fairly certain that Anakin
takes out a few people along the way, (not deliberately so like Sebulba
but it happens)
Shay
Andreas Sekeris
Shay Gordon-Brown wrote:
> Chad, read the book, it will explain almost everything. Other things can
> be found in the various star wars novel. They are not cannon but unless
> GL states something different, they are a fairly reliable source. I'll
> address a couple of points below.
>
But the first 3 movies were able to stand up on their own without needing
to read a novel to understand what was going on.
Also I agree with another poster who said the space-battle was poor.
It was extremely poor, very hurried shots of captains not seeming
to have much of a clue, flashes of spaceships that are much briefer
than the battles in the first 3 which have the camera following the outside
of a ship. That didnt happen here, and when it did the camera kept changing
viewpoints so you couldn't feel anything for the ship that was in the shot
when
it got blown up. And how the hell did anaking get past the big ship's
shield?
I don't think it could've been the force because he didn't seem to
particularly
want to go into the ship though I could be wrong about this. The space
battle seemed a bit rushed, with the tattoine scenes anakin acted very well,
in the ship he seemed to act pretty woodenly with no emotion, and the
space scenes being very quick and short.
It's also pretty poor ship design to have the power-reactor in the ship's
hanger.
I hope the next movies will have a few more space fights as I really enjoy
the way Lucas does those. He's much better at that then directing people
>
> Chad Millar wrote:
>
> > I thought it inferior to both the original Star Wars and Empire
> > Strikes Back, and around about the quality of Return of the Jedi -
> > probably slightly less, due to the fact there wasn't really anything
> > to care about here... it seems like lots of set-up.
>
> There was a lot of setup. This is not a bad thing as most people don't
> know the basis for many of the 'knowns' in eps 4,5 and 6. Remember when
> people watch the series in the future they will watch from episode one.
True, though the force is defined a bit diferently here than in ep5, though
like
someone has said it's probably because at the moment the jedi are advanced
and by ep5 they can only explain the force using religion. The only problem
with that theory though is that yoda is on the council in ep1, so would know
the scientific explanation for the force. So why give a religious/faith
explanation
to Luke in ep5? same goes for obi-wan as well.
I really think there was no need to give a techno-babble excuse for the
force,
leaving it explained as a spiritual force gave it more wait.
>
>
> > As for that... thing. If I see a Gungan in Episode 2, I'll be upset.
> > If I *hear* a Gungan in Episode 2, I'm flying to America and hunting
> > George Lucas down.
>
> I don't know how GL is going to use Jar-Jar again, but if Amidala is
> still Queen of Naboo, a Gungan manservant is a likely option.
They should just have the aliens speaking alien tongues and give subtitles.
I had a hard time understanding the gun-guns and those creatures in the
trade federation.
We know more than that, they're all powerful people that can individually
destroy an enemy very easily. The balance between good and evil is tipped
way too far to the evil side. Darth Vader is instrumental in fixing this as
once
nearly all the jedi knights are destroyed, and he and palpatine are the only
sith lords left, then there are no creatures with god-like powers that can
easily eliminate an enemy.
> > Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman didn't have much to work with.
>
> It is the set-up and as such everyone has there only little bit to take
> into the next movies. They will both come into their own when there
> stories need to be told.
>
True. If you go into the movie knowing that ewan was going to imitate Sir
Alec Guinness then his acting becomes a bit more understandable.
>
> > The pod race just seemed to drag on and take up too much time.
>
> You would have hated it then if the first pod-race made the final cut
> then. (This would have been at the beginning of the movie when Anakin
> crashed Watto's pod) There were a few good plot points put into the
> first pod race that carried over to the second.
>
which shows that the pod-race wasn't really required. I thought the whole
pod-race scene was just an ad for the game. Just something in the way they
kept talking about how wonderful it would be to pilot a pod-racer, and how
important it would be. Imagine what an effect that would have on a kid who
sees the pod-racer game in a shop window.
>
> > Jedi must wear Batman-style utility belts. After escaping of the Trade
> > ship and finding Jar Jar, Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan pull repirators from
> > nowhere to take a swim to Gungan city.
>
> Yes they do. Like boy scouts they are always prepared.
Yeah no problem there, they're small, easily concealed and very useful.
>
>
> > Anakin was an immaculate conception of the symbiotic midi-chorlans?
> > Obi-wan analyses Anakins blood to detect these midi-chorlans over a
> > hand held communicator? What is this, Star Trek: Voyager?
>
> I've addressed this elsewhere. It is a very important set-up point.
>
Where did you address it? I read the whole post and still don't understand
why it's required to techno-babblize the force.
>
> > R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we just
> > have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names Skywalker
> > and Kenobi before episode 4.
>
> George Lucas stated many years ago that the only characters to be in
> every Star Wars movie was the droids. They are for want of a better
> phrase they are the storyboards of the series. They bind the episodes
> together. If you follow their story you would actually see the Star Wars
> story unveil.
>
Which is a pretty cool plot device, having a sort of narrator driving the
series.
Wouldn't it have been apt to kill the droids off in ep6 then though?
>
> > Anakin accidently getting in a fighter, accidently flying into the
> > base and accidently destroying the station made that entire battle
> > pretty much worthless.
>
> No. To paraphrase Qui-Gonn there is a reason for everything. It wasn't
> an accident that Qui-Gonn met up with Jar-Jar. Jar-Jar was the one who
> solved the problem of freeing Naboo as he told the Queen about the
> Gungan army. It wasn't just an accident that Qui-Gonn and Amidala met
> Anakin either. There is a guiding hand as it is all fated in some way.
> Destiny is the underlying theme of all the movies.
>
Maybe, but it shouldn't be relied on so strongly as a plot device
>
>
> > What was The Prophecy Of The One Who Will Bring Balance To The Force?
> > What was The Mystery Of The Sith? I guess we have to wait till the
> > next movie.
>
> It is just a prophecy obviously a very important prophecy is it involves
> the downfall of the republic. Perhaps we will learn of it in it's
> entirety further into the movies.
>
> There is no mystery of the Sith. The first Dark Lords of the Sith
> (Darths) were jedi who dabbled in the dark side of the force.
> Apparently the Sith were creatures who lived with or were 'dark
> forces'. (My memory is a little shady in this area I will have to go
> and do some reading). These fallen jedi coveted the abilities of the
> Sith. They eventually became very large in number and the jedi and
> sith lords had frequent clashes even full on battles. There are two
> streams of thought about the next bit. Either only one of the Darth's
> escaped death at the hands of the Jedi or he Sith went elsewhere and
> killed themselves off. I like this version better as it explains why
> there always is a master and an apprentice. The can't peacefully
> coexist with any more than two of their number as the infighting and
> backstabbing will lead to death. Also the apprentice will variably kill
> his master and then take on an underling for himself.
>
Fair enough, also I want to mention some bits about the next movie,
so here's a spoiler movie if you don't want to know
what p2 might be about, aside from not wanting leonardo di caprio
to be in it (heh)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
One of my worries was that maul was so heavily promoted for
this movie, yet he died at the end. But apparently ep2 will be about
the clone wars, which explains how 1 sith lord can eliminate the jedi
knights a little. Perhaps the cloning process destroys the original slightly
hence the emperor's appearance in ep6, it should be pretty exciting.
Also apparently anakin returns home to get his mother who's dead,
which explains how cp3o get's picked up from tattoine (he got left
behind didn't he?). Pretty exciting times ahead, maybe not with
space battles but there should be some very exciting lightsaber
fights and whatnot.
eloki
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
I find it strange that people are so heavily defending this movie, I guess
it's that strange reality-distortion field that the SW hype has produced.
I'm a big SW fan, all-night sessions watching the second trilogy and having
read 7 of the books means I qualify there I think. But I was disappointed
in the movie and find it strange that so many people think it was so good.
The explanation that the midi-chlorians tell people what the Force wants
was poor; it's one thing to want the Jedi to be more advanced, but why have
this explanation that the m-c's actually act as some sort of middleman
translator for the Force? A better explanation would be merely that the
midi-chlorians are attracted to those who are strong in the Force but serve
no purpose themselves, thus still letting them be used for Jedi-detection
without implying that they were (partly) responsible for its manifestation
in lifeforms.
I also think that justifying all the events of the movie with "nothing
happens in the SW universe by accident" is sweeping the problem under the
carpet. You may as well just say "the director made no mistakes and nothing
could have been done better, because nothing in the SW movies happens by
accident so it was all meant to happen".
Whether Anakin is strong in the Force or not, it's ridiculous that someone
like him who's *never* piloted a starfighter before can accomplish so much
by accident. Good fortune and contingent events being important are a
hallmark of the SW movies. But in the second trilogy these are kept to a
minimum, with most of the luck being generated by the characters themselves.
As pointed out already, just why would the power generator be accessible
from the main hangar of that control ship? Anakin's repeated use of the
word "oops" implies that he didn't think "this is the right control", but
that he was just trying buttons. He clearly didn't know it was the right
button, and he clearly wasn't trying to blow up the generator.
There was no concentration on his part.. have you noticed how in the
second trilogy the Jedi (Obi-Wan and Luke) always seem to concentrate for a
second before coming up with remarkable instinctual decisions or knowledge?
If Anakin concentrated and focused (as Qui-Gon had previously told him to)
before pressing the buttons, I would be happy enough. But there was no
implied use of the Force, nor guidance by the Force, in his actions. He was
just ridiculously lucky. Luke had been a pilot, he knew how to fly a ship
so he merely had to learn how to fly an X-wing. His natural piloting talent
and the Force enabled him to do that quickly. Anakin, on the other hand, is
supposedly flying a starfighter (even though the first part was on
autopilot) and blowing up all the right things. He's an untrained talent,
such a person would not be able to do that, especially when he's still a
little kid! It's just unrealistic, there's a difference between "luck",
"Jedi luck", and "ridiculous blind stinking luck", you know :)
There's also interesting dialogue inconsistencies between the new film and
the second trilogy - compare Obi-Wan's meeting with Anakin to how Obi-Wan
describes their meeting in ROTJ: "When I first met your father, he was
already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force flowed
with him." He wasn't already a great pilot when they met.. and I really
don't think pod-racing counts as piloting. Then Obi-Wan continues "I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi", rather than saying the fact Obi-Wan has
doubts about Anakin and only trains him because he promised a dying Qui-Gon
that he would. Lastly, he says "I thought that I could train him just as
well as Yoda.. I was wrong." This implies that Obi-Wan was himself trained
by Yoda.. remember how when Luke arrives on Dagobah, Yoda refuses to train
him, saying he is too old (and Obi-Wan says "So was I, if you remember".
All these comments imply that Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda, which isn't
true in TPM. Yes, Obi-Wan doesn't outright say he was trained by Yoda, but
to me they're pretty good evidence that he was.. and that implies Qui-Gon is
a new character that had not occurred to Lucas when he scripted the second
trilogy. You could of course explain it all away by saying it's all just
Obi-Wan telling the story "from a certain point of view" again. Personally
I doubt it, it's too conveniently said by Lucas-worshippers who can't
possibly criticse anything in the SW films or universe. I have the
inescapable feeling that Lucas spent too much time on the effects and visual
details and not enough on polishing his plot and script.
I'm sure some people will respond pointing out that these criticisms are
not concrete. I guess it all depends on interpretation; what you think is
meant to be "just luck" and what's meant to be "Force guidance" (and yes
both those things exist in the SW universe).
--
eloki
eloki/at/zip.com.au
Dare I disturb the universe? You bet I do! :)
Paul Andinach
-> S
->
-> P
->
-> O
->
-> I
->
-> L
->
-> E
->
-> R
->
->
->
-> S
->
-> P
->
-> A
->
-> C
->
-> E
> I find it strange that people are so heavily defending this movie,
> I guess it's that strange reality-distortion field that the SW hype
> has produced.
It's possible. Personally, I think that the real effect of the strange
reality-distortion field that the SW hype has produced is people who
somehow think that it matters that TPM isn't perfect.
> There's also interesting dialogue inconsistencies between the new
> film and the second trilogy - compare Obi-Wan's meeting with Anakin
> to how Obi-Wan describes their meeting in ROTJ: "When I first met
> your father, he was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how
> strongly the Force flowed with him." He wasn't already a great pilot
> when they met.. and I really don't think pod-racing counts as
> piloting.
I do. They fly, ergo the person controlling them is a pilot. :)
And Anakin is a *great* pilot. It's explicitly stated that pod-racing
is very difficult, and that Anakin is the only human in the system
who's able to do it.
> All these comments imply that Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda, which
> isn't true in TPM. Yes, Obi-Wan doesn't outright say he was trained
> by Yoda, but to me they're pretty good evidence that he was..
behonestorkeepmouthshut?flipacoin: *flip*
"You will go to the Dagobah system and meet Yoda, the Jedi Master who
trained me."
> I'm sure some people will respond pointing out that these
> criticisms are not concrete. I guess it all depends on
> interpretation; what you think is meant to be "just luck" and what's
> meant to be "Force guidance" (and yes both those things exist in the
> SW universe).
I realise that TPM is not perfect, and there are things that could
have been done better. (One you missed: Naboo would have worked fine
as an enlightened monarchy, but Lucas threw in a line saying Queen
Amidala was the elected head of her people - what are they doing,
electing a teenager to rule a planet?)
Where we differ is that I don't really care. I wasn't expecting TPM to
be perfect. All I wanted out of it was to be entertained, and I was,
and I believe that if I ever watch it again, I will be entertained
again. I got what I wanted out of TPM, and that's all that matters to
me.
YMMV, of course.
Paul
--
[This .sig currently vacant while a replacement is sought for the
previous incumbent, who was fired after a complaint from one of those
people you always get who don't know a joke when they see one.]
eloki
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
>It's possible. Personally, I think that the real effect of the strange
>reality-distortion field that the SW hype has produced is people who
>somehow think that it matters that TPM isn't perfect.
It doesn't have to be perfect; I do realise that, but I did expect
something with less inconsistencies.
>I do. They fly, ergo the person controlling them is a pilot. :)
>And Anakin is a *great* pilot. It's explicitly stated that pod-racing
>is very difficult, and that Anakin is the only human in the system
>who's able to do it.
I guess that's true. But I also think it's obvious that Obi-Wan meant a
great starfighter pilot when he was talking to Luke, so that probably still
doesn't let Lucas off :P
>"You will go to the Dagobah system and meet Yoda, the Jedi Master who
>trained me."
Heh, good point.
>Where we differ is that I don't really care. I wasn't expecting TPM to
>be perfect. All I wanted out of it was to be entertained, and I was,
>and I believe that if I ever watch it again, I will be entertained
>again. I got what I wanted out of TPM, and that's all that matters to
>me.
>YMMV, of course.
To be honest, I probably would have kept my criticisms to myself and not
posted them, until I saw how vehemently some people were defending TPM
despite (to me) the pretty valid opinions/comments/criticisms that were
being proferred. The movie is definitely not without its flaws, as you and
I agree.. I just wish others could see that too. As you say, it was pretty
entertaining, but I agree with the original post it just lacked soul
somehow, no one thing brought it down... but I just didn't care about the
characters enough.
All in all, enjoyable enough, but nothing to write home about as some sort
of classic movie :)
Richard Prekodravac
> All in all, enjoyable enough, but nothing to write home about as some sort
> of classic movie :)
Discuss:
That Star Wars: A New Hope is a classic film. In your essay you should
make particular reference to the acting ability of Mark Hamill.
Ian Galbraith
[snip-spoiler space removed no spoilers]
:Firstly, it's almost become a cliche to express concern at the deaths
:of the civilians aboard the Death Stars in _Star Wars_ and Return of
:the Jedi. In each case, apart from badass military guys, there's
:clearly lots and lots of other people aboard -- all those technical
:guys and doubtless lots of service industry types meeting the needs of
:the soldiers and technicians. Do they all deserve to die? (In that
:case perhaps everyone who works in the defence industry, helping to
:produce devices of destruction, does?) This is an issue that the
:original movies either didn't consider, or deliberately shied away
:from.
This is an irrelevant criticism, and is mostly made humorously as you point
out. They are fighting a war.
[snip]
Daniel Frankham
>On Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:31:56 GMT, Daniel Frankham wrote:
>
>
>
>:Firstly, it's almost become a cliche to express concern at the deaths
>:of the civilians aboard the Death Stars in _Star Wars_ and Return of
>:the Jedi. In each case, apart from badass military guys, there's
>:clearly lots and lots of other people aboard -- all those technical
>:guys and doubtless lots of service industry types meeting the needs of
>:the soldiers and technicians. Do they all deserve to die? (In that
>:case perhaps everyone who works in the defence industry, helping to
>:produce devices of destruction, does?) This is an issue that the
>:original movies either didn't consider, or deliberately shied away
>:from.
>
>This is an irrelevant criticism, and is mostly made humorously as you point
>out. They are fighting a war.
My point was that with PM Lucas seems to have taken a lot of this
half-serious criticism entirely seriously, and produced a movie wich
avoids these perceived problems.
Shay Gordon-Brown
>
> S
>
> P
>
> O
>
> I
>
> L
>
> E
>
> R
>
> S
>
> P
>
> A
>
> C
>
> E
>
> The explanation that the midi-chlorians tell people what the Force wants
> was poor; it's one thing to want the Jedi to be more advanced, but why have
> this explanation that the m-c's actually act as some sort of middleman
> translator for the Force? A better explanation would be merely that the
> midi-chlorians are attracted to those who are strong in the Force but serve
> no purpose themselves, thus still letting them be used for Jedi-detection
> without implying that they were (partly) responsible for its manifestation
> in lifeforms.
The midi-chlorians and the force are symbionts. Without one the other
does not exist. It is not a causative relationship.
I really think that was the point, but for some reason you don't think
it is valid. Did you notice how when Qui-Gon was stuck behind the
forcefield he paused and contemplated? Anakin doesn't do that, he is
not trained, he just has ability. He works entirely on instinct.
> There's also interesting dialogue inconsistencies between the new film and
> the second trilogy - compare Obi-Wan's meeting with Anakin to how Obi-Wan
> describes their meeting in ROTJ: "When I first met your father, he was
> already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force flowed
> with him." He wasn't already a great pilot when they met.. and I really
> don't think pod-racing counts as piloting. Then Obi-Wan continues "I took it
> upon myself to train him as a Jedi", rather than saying the fact Obi-Wan has
> doubts about Anakin and only trains him because he promised a dying Qui-Gon
> that he would. Lastly, he says "I thought that I could train him just as
> well as Yoda.. I was wrong." This implies that Obi-Wan was himself trained
> by Yoda.. remember how when Luke arrives on Dagobah, Yoda refuses to train
> him, saying he is too old (and Obi-Wan says "So was I, if you remember".
Not right. Yoda does say that Luke is too old to train but the reply
from Ben is to the statement that Luke is too impatient and too
reckless.
> All these comments imply that Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda, which isn't
> true in TPM. Yes, Obi-Wan doesn't outright say he was trained by Yoda, but
> to me they're pretty good evidence that he was.. and that implies Qui-Gon is
> a new character that had not occurred to Lucas when he scripted the second
> trilogy. You could of course explain it all away by saying it's all just
> Obi-Wan telling the story "from a certain point of view" again.
Yes you can. This was how it was always meant to be. Obi-Wan is
deliberately telling half-truths with good intent but of course it has
terrible consequences. Qui-Gon realizes this and lectures Obi-Wan that
his failure is compromising the moment for the future.
Shay
Shay Gordon-Brown
>
> Shay Gordon-Brown wrote:
>
> > Chad, read the book, it will explain almost everything. Other things can
> > be found in the various star wars novel. They are not cannon but unless
> > GL states something different, they are a fairly reliable source. I'll
> > address a couple of points below.
> >
>
> But the first 3 movies were able to stand up on their own without needing
> to read a novel to understand what was going on.
Really? So you know that Uncle Owen is in fact Obi-Wan's brother and
not Anakin's? Sheds a different light on things doesn't it? The
novelisations of the first films or correctly the novelisations of the
first scripts tell you a hell of a lot of complimentary information.
People wanted to know more because they realised there was a lot more to
know. The original movies were always intended to be only one medium of
a number of different media to get the story across. For both ESB and
ROTJ the movie, comic and novel were released simultaneously (within
weeks at least) to capitalize on this.
> > There was a lot of setup. This is not a bad thing as most people don't
> > know the basis for many of the 'knowns' in eps 4,5 and 6. Remember when
> > people watch the series in the future they will watch from episode one.
>
> True, though the force is defined a bit diferently here than in ep5, though
> like
> someone has said it's probably because at the moment the jedi are advanced
> and by ep5 they can only explain the force using religion. The only problem
> with that theory though is that yoda is on the council in ep1, so would know
>
> the scientific explanation for the force. So why give a religious/faith
> explanation
> to Luke in ep5? same goes for obi-wan as well.
Simple. Luke needed spiritual guidance. He didn't need facts.
> I really think there was no need to give a techno-babble excuse for the
> force,
> leaving it explained as a spiritual force gave it more wait.
>
Plot device. All will be revealed in eps 2 and 3.
> > Maul is only important as the tool to show us how both the Sith the jedi
> > work. For the Sith we understand about the fact that they exist only as
> > the Master and the Apprentice. As for the jedi we get to see them in
> > action in the golden years of the republic. In their prime, they are
> > fighting wrongs and serving the people. They are master swordsmen.
> > That's all we need to know really.
> >
> >
>
> We know more than that, they're all powerful people that can individually
> destroy an enemy very easily. The balance between good and evil is tipped
> way too far to the evil side. Darth Vader is instrumental in fixing this as
> once
> nearly all the jedi knights are destroyed, and he and palpatine are the only
>
> sith lords left, then there are no creatures with god-like powers that can
> easily eliminate an enemy.
At the moment the balance is tipped far towards the jedi. Remember
there are thousands of them only two Sith. The dark side is just as
powerful as light side of the force, a master in one is as strong as a
master in the other. It is not until the jedi are all but wiped out
that the scales tip to the dark side.
> > > Anakin was an immaculate conception of the symbiotic midi-chorlans?
> > > Obi-wan analyses Anakins blood to detect these midi-chorlans over a
> > > hand held communicator? What is this, Star Trek: Voyager?
> >
> > I've addressed this elsewhere. It is a very important set-up point.
> >
>
> Where did you address it? I read the whole post and still don't understand
> why it's required to techno-babblize the force.
Sorry. Stated in a different post. But I'll say it again. I hope
no-one thinks I'm harping if they read it a few times. :)
Basically midi-chlorians are symbionts, they exist where the force
exists and vice versa. They exist in great number where the force is
channelled the best. That's basically all you need to know about the
workings of midi-chlorians.
What you also will probably need to know is the way they detect
potential jedi. Again in the novels, the purge of the jedi was
facilitated with a machine that I have now assumed detects
midi-chlorians. There is also an interesting connotation that may
explain how Sidious and Palpatine end up being the same person. But I
won't go into that as it will probably be a spoiler.
> >
> > > R2-D2 and C3PO - why? They added *nothing* to the story. Now we just
> > > have to find out exactly how they manage to forget the names Skywalker
> > > and Kenobi before episode 4.
> >
> > George Lucas stated many years ago that the only characters to be in
> > every Star Wars movie was the droids. They are for want of a better
> > phrase they are the storyboards of the series. They bind the episodes
> > together. If you follow their story you would actually see the Star Wars
> > story unveil.
> >
>
> Which is a pretty cool plot device, having a sort of narrator driving the
> series.
> Wouldn't it have been apt to kill the droids off in ep6 then though?
It depends if GL again goes back on his word and does eps 7,8 and 9.
I'm hoping for the mother of all battles in ep2. Can you imagine
thousands of jedi fighting it out like the Maul/QuiGon/Obi-Wan fight?
That would be brilliant.
Shay
Jem
Daniel Frankham <dan...@oztek.net.au> wrote in message
news:3757af00...@loomi.telstra.net...
> Some observations on the Phantom Menace
>
> (after the spoiler space)
> _Phantom Menace_ seems to have been written with these ethical
> concerns very much in mind; hardly a living being is killed by our
> heroes, and those few who are, are for the most part individually
> established as bad fellows who deserve what they get. The stormtrooper
> problem is neatly avoided through the employment of armies of droids,
> the deaths of which are unlikely to cause many ethical squirms among
> human audiences. (Despite the attempt to imbue several droids with
> individual personalities, and to treat them as artificial life forms
> worthy of some respect in several of the SW films.)
I couldn't agree more - I was thinking the same thing as I watched the 3
thousandth droid/robot soldier get blown up. No one else I was with seemed
to notice this though until I asked them what they thought afterwards. I
suppose you've just got to accept that this movie was made with a pretty
young audience in mind. Not that you have to be happy about it (I'm not..).
> Then _The Phantom Menace_'s Death Star equivalent, the big ship that
> controls the battle droids, is home to only a few life forms, none of
> whom could be considered by the most liberal-minded audience to be
> "innocents"; again, the ethical issues are nicely avoided by manning
> the ship with droids.
Yes, and this was also one of the significant moments in Mothership design
history. Students in Motherships 101 now learn not to put the main reactor
in the hangar, something that was previously thought to be a state of the
art feature.
> Is this a good thing? Does it reduce the impact of a battle when it's
> merely people vs robots? Has Lucas gone soft? The first sign of this
> trend was in the Star Wars special edition, where Han Solo's
> pre-emptive strike against Greedo was retconned so that Greedo shot
> first. Apparently our heroes have to be ethically spotless these days.
> Is it dangerous to suggest that people can fight a war without ever
> having to compromise themselves? The myth and folklore on which the
> Star Wars films draw seldom shies away from presenting the awful
> reality of war. Can we expect a Special Special Edition of the
> original trilogy, in which the Stormtroopers are replaced with droids,
> the Death Stars repopulated with droids, the fighter ships piloted by
> droids... and so on?
Er yes, I think he has gone a bit soft. Hardly anything living being shot or
killed, the Greedo incident, and must I mention Jar Jar....
Araaararagagaghh
Jem
eloki
[spoiler space removed.. SPOILER WARNING]
>The midi-chlorians and the force are symbionts. Without one the other does
>not exist. It is not a causative relationship.
Well I didn't say it was. If, as Obi-Wan said in ANH, "The Force is an
energy field created by all living things..." then that implies it's not
just created by midi-chlorians. Personally I do not like this explanation,
and I suspect that Lucas will at some point realise how much the SW universe
has lots in converting the Force from a mystic field to something emitted by
a few tiny things swimming around in our cells.
>I really think that was the point, but for some reason you don't think it
>is valid. Did you notice how when Qui-Gon was stuck behind the forcefield
>he paused and contemplated? Anakin doesn't do that, he is not trained, he
>just has ability. He works entirely on instinct.
No, my point was that he *had* no instinct. If he was relying on
instinct, then he would have thought "I have to blow up that thing, it looks
like the power generator" and then looked at the buttons and relied on
instinct to press the right one. I just dontt think they portrayed it as
instinct. The fact he continually pressed buttons and said "oops" implies
he had no idea what he was doing, it wasn't instinct but sheer good fortune
because he didn't mean to blow up the generator. If it's meant to be Force
guidance then he should look like he's attempting to do something *apart*
from get the hell out of there, which is what he was trying to do.
>Not right. Yoda does say that Luke is too old to train but the reply from
>Ben is to the statement that Luke is too impatient and too reckless.
True, thanks for the correction.
>> You could of course explain it all away by saying it's all just Obi-Wan
>> telling the story "from a certain point of view" again.
>Yes you can. This was how it was always meant to be.
Maybe you can, but it's a pretty big cop-out. It sure seems to me like
you're using the fact Obi-Wan lied about one thing to explain all the
inconsistencies. It's one thing for Obi-Wan to lie to Luke about the fact
Vader was his father (hope that wasn't a spoiler for anyone ;) as that's an
understandable lie.. but what reason does he have to lie to Luke about who
trained him? I don't see concrete reasons, you may as well just explain the
inconsistencies by saying that Luke heard him wrong because his ears were
clogged with snow/swamp mud :)
Daniel Frankham
>Shay Gordon-Brown <sha...@uq.net.au> wrote unto us:
>
>[spoiler space removed.. SPOILER WARNING]
>
>>not exist. It is not a causative relationship.
>
>energy field created by all living things..." then that implies it's not
>just created by midi-chlorians. Personally I do not like this explanation,
>and I suspect that Lucas will at some point realise how much the SW universe
>has lots in converting the Force from a mystic field to something emitted by
>a few tiny things swimming around in our cells.
The PM explanation says that the midi-chlorians communicate with the
Force. Not that they create it or emit it or whatever.
(Also, Qui-Gon's explanation says that life forms and midi-chlorians
are symbiants; not that the midi-chlorians have a symbiotic
relationship with the force.)
Laurence
> > that he would. Lastly, he says "I thought that I could train him just as
> > well as Yoda.. I was wrong." This implies that Obi-Wan was himself trained
> > by Yoda.. remember how when Luke arrives on Dagobah, Yoda refuses to train
> > him, saying he is too old (and Obi-Wan says "So was I, if you remember".
>
> Not right. Yoda does say that Luke is too old to train but the reply
> from Ben is to the statement that Luke is too impatient and too
> reckless.
I watched Empire last night (an absolutely fantastic film, so superior
in so many ways to TPM)
I can't remember the Yoda bit exactly but I'll watch it again tonight.
But the "So was I" comment was definitely not in reference to age.
> > All these comments imply that Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda, which isn't
> > true in TPM. Yes, Obi-Wan doesn't outright say he was trained by Yoda,
BEN: You will go to the Dagobah system.
LUKE: Dagobah system?
BEN: There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.
Robbie Matthews
>Shay Gordon-Brown <sha...@uq.net.au> wrote unto us:
>[spoiler space removed.. SPOILER WARNING]
> Maybe you can, but it's a pretty big cop-out. It sure seems to me like
>you're using the fact Obi-Wan lied about one thing to explain all the
>inconsistencies. It's one thing for Obi-Wan to lie to Luke about the fact
>Vader was his father (hope that wasn't a spoiler for anyone ;) as that's an
>understandable lie.. but what reason does he have to lie to Luke about who
>trained him? I don't see concrete reasons, you may as well just explain
the
>inconsistencies by saying that Luke heard him wrong because his ears were
>clogged with snow/swamp mud :)
Actually, there is no reason to believe that Yoda did not train Obi-Wan at
some point.
It's quite possible that there are quite a few phases in the training of a
Jedi, so it's possible that Yoda was one of his teachers, rather than the
only one.
After all, in the Jedi academy books there is more than just one teacher.
Robbie
eloki
>The PM explanation says that the midi-chlorians communicate with the
>Force. Not that they create it or emit it or whatever.
*sigh* yes. When I said that I was comparing the idea that the Force is
created by all living things (as Obi-Wan said in ANH) to the idea presented
in TPM that it's just (realtively speaking) created by the midi-chlorians.
Yes, he says they're symbiotic and all that, I do remember; but the key
difference is "all living things" vs "midi-chlorians, small thingies doing
synchronised swimming in our cells".
Paul Andinach
> BEN: There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.
...which, since Qui Gon is a Jedi *Knight*, doesn't preclude them both
having instructed Obi-Wan. :)
eloki
[spoiler space removed.. SPOILER WARNING]
>Actually, there is no reason to believe that Yoda did not train Obi-Wan at
>some point. It's quite possible that there are quite a few phases in the
>training of a Jedi, so it's possible that Yoda was one of his teachers,
>rather than the only one.
Possible, possible. As mentioned by someone, the simplest explanation is
the most likely one. It's possible that Luke imagined all of Dagobah and
just mediated for a few months, but you'd probably not agree with that
explanation. There are just too many inconsistent reference for it to all
be meant. Qui-Gon vanishes into the ether because Obi-Wan conveniently
forgets he ever learnt from anyone except Yoda? He would have said "There
you will learn from Yoda, a Jedi Master who instructed me." Presumably
Obi-Wan would be affected enough by the death of Qui-Gon not to forget him.
>After all, in the Jedi academy books there is more than just one teacher.
Hmm.. which books are you referring to here?
eloki
>...which, since Qui Gon is a Jedi *Knight*, doesn't preclude them both
>having instructed Obi-Wan. :)
Actually I thought Qui-Gon was a Jedi Master. Not all Masters have to be
on the Council, after all. C'Baoth was a Master, yet I don't think he was
ever meant to be on the Council.
Robbie Matthews
>[spoiler space removed.. SPOILER WARNING]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>the most likely one. It's possible that Luke imagined all of Dagobah and
>just mediated for a few months, but you'd probably not agree with that
>explanation. There are just too many inconsistent reference for it to all
>be meant. Qui-Gon vanishes into the ether because Obi-Wan conveniently
>forgets he ever learnt from anyone except Yoda? He would have said "There
>you will learn from Yoda, a Jedi Master who instructed me." Presumably
>Obi-Wan would be affected enough by the death of Qui-Gon not to forget him.
>
>>After all, in the Jedi academy books there is more than just one teacher.
They are a series of books based around the Jedi Academy that Luke set up.
I think they are juveniles, so I don't know how canon - if at all - they
are.
However, in Luke's Academy is referred to a number of times in later books
in the Star Wars universe, including (I think) the Timothy Zahn, which ARE
canon (I think ... more or less...)
Robbie
Edward McArdle
<Pine.LNX.3.96.99060...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>, Paul
Andinach <pand...@mermaid.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, Laurence wrote:
>
> > BEN: There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.
>
> ...which, since Qui Gon is a Jedi *Knight*, doesn't preclude them both
> having instructed Obi-Wan. :)
>
Actually Obi-Wan hasn't passed his finals yet. He may be about to be
trained by Yoda in Part 2!
--
Edward McArdle.
You need to alter my return address to reply to me.
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~mcardle
- me, my tennis club, photos, verses, a novel....
Edward McArdle
light-sabre, he "only makes him stronger". When Darth Maul killed whoever
it was*, he just seemed to make him dead.
Is this something to be expanded upon in the next two films?
*so I don't need to put in spoilers.
Richards B T
:
: Actually Obi-Wan hasn't passed his finals yet. He may be about to be
: trained by Yoda in Part 2!
Correct me if im wrong, but i thought yoda did give ob1 jedi
knight status towards the end...this would imply he passed the
trials..? i would like to see those trials
:
: --
eloki
>They are a series of books based around the Jedi Academy that Luke set up.
>I think they are juveniles, so I don't know how canon - if at all - they
>are.
I've read Zahn's first trilogy, and also Kevin J. Anderson's first
trilogy, which is where Luke asks the New Republic Council permission to set
up an academy. However he's the only teacher there, being the only real
Jedi around (Leia is still in training). I guess you're referring to a
later trilogy then? Who are these other teachers?
Paul Andinach
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, Edward McArdle wrote:
> Actually Obi-Wan hasn't passed his finals yet. He may be about to be
> trained by Yoda in Part 2!
Actually, Obi-Wan has passed his finals. Yoda tells him at the end
that the Council's declared him a Jedi Knight, which is why Obi-Wan's
able to take on Anakin as an apprentice.
Paul
Paul Andinach
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, Edward McArdle wrote:
> Something which occurs to me is, when Darth Vader kills Ob-Wan with
> a light-sabre, he "only makes him stronger". When Darth Maul killed
> whoever it was*, he just seemed to make him dead.
I think this is connected to the "why didn't Qui Gon disappear when he
died?" question.
Yoda and Obi-Wan (at the time of their respective deaths) are powerful
Jedi who have the knowledge/power needed to pull off the
hang-around-in-the-spirit-world-after-you're-gone trick.
Qui Gon apparently doesn't.
> *so I don't need to put in spoilers.
Look, there's basically two Jedi in the film, and it's not Obi-Wan...
Paul
zaphy
the following:
>Shay Gordon-Brown <sha...@uq.net.au> wrote unto us:
>
>[spoiler space removed.. SPOILER WARNING]
>
>>The midi-chlorians and the force are symbionts. Without one the other does
>>not exist. It is not a causative relationship.
>
> Well I didn't say it was. If, as Obi-Wan said in ANH, "The Force is an
>energy field created by all living things..." then that implies it's not
>just created by midi-chlorians. Personally I do not like this explanation,
>and I suspect that Lucas will at some point realise how much the SW universe
>has lots in converting the Force from a mystic field to something emitted by
>a few tiny things swimming around in our cells.
The Midichorians aren't the Force, though.....they are the organisms
that give the Jedi the ability to *detect* the Force...
The Force is still a mystical energy field...
eloki
>>just created by midi-chlorians. Personally I do not like this explanation,
>>and I suspect that Lucas will at some point realise how much the SW universe
>>has lots in converting the Force from a mystic field to something emitted by
>>a few tiny things swimming around in our cells.
>
>The Midichorians aren't the Force, though.....they are the organisms
>that give the Jedi the ability to *detect* the Force...
>The Force is still a mystical energy field...
Aargh! This was a simplification. Yes I know they're not the Force, see
my other reply.. it's still a mystic field, but now we have little
midi-chlorians running around inside people as well. I don't know about
you, but it's a lot less mystical if these midi-chlorians act a a middleman
between the Force and living things.
Toni Maxwell
spoiler space (but if you're reading this, beats me how you got this far in
the thread without having seen the flick)
Things I haven't seen addressed here so far (or not in this way)
1. The alien accents.
I've seen them criticised for not being in a completely alien language with
subtitles.... well DUH! given that GL knows a large proportion of his
audience will be under 10, can you expect them to read anything more than
two or three exchanges without getting bored or not reading fast enough?
My main criticism of the accents are *sigh* I do hate to seem terribly PC
here, but my recollection of the accents are that they are um... Asian,
mid-European, possibly German, and in the case of Jar-Jar, positively "we's
all good slaves down here on de plantation massa". *Cringes instinctively
and prepares to be shot down in flames*
OK, I'm NOT viewing TPM as the latest in psychologically advanced and
balanced film-making, after all Star Wars has been described as a cowboy
movie in outer space, it's just an escapist action flick etc etc but if GL
goes to all the trouble (as has been discussed in this thread) to remove all
human beings from being killed unless they are genuine baddies, WHY go so
retrograde when it comes to accents?
2. Lightsabre duel/s
I do agree that the dialogue adds heaps to the previous duels. I do not
agree that a balanced duel between masters means they do not use dialogue,
they're too busy concentrating. Take duelling as an art
form/skill/whatever, isn't upsetting dialogue PART of the duel? (Imagine
Yoda teaching duelling language for a real hoot)
Another part of this is I feel GL lost a couple of really great
opportunities in the duel/s. When Obi-Wan recovers from hanging by his
fingertips, you could have had a a great long-shot of Ewan (or did we? only
saw it once & only recollect the long shot as a set-up for the recovery)
Also I felt he pandered a bit too much to the 2-second attention span by
cutting AROUND the fights and not letting it all become a flowing whole.
But then that's my criticism of the whole thing, which has been discussed in
previous posts.
3. The novel/film biz
OK, possibly I can get a whole lot more out of TPM by reading the book. As
has been stated, SW stood more or less on its own (yes I know you got more
out of the book, don't start) BUT.... If the whole thing is a set-up,
there's not enough explanation of:
a) Princess Amidala (sp?) ie, if she's elected, how? what credentials? she's
obviously highly talented, but also is out of touch with the "real world" as
we see on Tattooine (damn if I apologise for my spelling every time we'll be
here all night)
b) The whole trade-blockade thing, OK I've SEEN the movie and it still
hasn't stuck in my head how it all happened, but the whole
Emperor/domination of the galaxy/universe thing in SW was a lot easier to
retain
c) MIDI-CHLORIAN??? OK, OK, I've read the symbiont/Force thread thingy, but
introducing it now, when no mention's been made of it in eps 4,5,6? Bit
redundant. Also when I saw the movie, when the whole Anakin, "there was no
father" bit was introduced, someone made me giggle a LOT by saying in the
theatre "Hey, he's Jesus!"
4. The acting
It's only MHO.... but Liam & Ewan were both wooden/caricature. Natalie was
far more into it. And what do they say about acting with children &
animals?
5. The CGI
The force field around the (oh I've forgotten the race name, the
underwater-dwellers) - the same as in ID4
Too easy to see how they did it (in the Senate)... but then that's probably
just me seeing too many SF movies
TOO MUCH!!!! I got very (yawn, what else can you do?)
6. The dissolves (between scenes in case you don't know what I mean)
Oh god.... a CLOCK dissolve to show time has passed? Haven't we got further
than that? Also I NOTICED the dissolves, which means for me, they didn't
work. And FYI I'm NOT a film student nor do I work in the industry.
There you go... what I thought. Only read further if you want to get
re-hashing
It didn't flow
There was a lack of intelligent dialogue
The previous movies I thought worked well to some degree on both a
child/adult level... viz, Princess Leia saying to Luke "You're a little
short for a stormtrooper, aren't you?"
VERY disappointed about the lack of involvement with Darth Maul, SUCH a good
baddie, I wanted heaps more, and more nastiness. All he did was attack the
Jedi. Couldn't he have squeezed a few live animals into a drink? (didn't
Jabba do that in ROTJ?)
All in all, it's the 2-levels bit that disappointed me the most. As my
friend said to me, even ANTZ worked on more than one level (haven't seen it
myself, so have to take her word for it)
And this is even more redundant, but if you're this far, you might want to
read on...
Applause to the "main reactor in the hangar" poster who said "they're not
learning that anymore in Mothership 101" *still giggling*
Yes, if they HAD their respirators with them, why didn't we see them being
used in the gas-filled room as well as underwater? (I know, I know, Jedi
have supreme breath control and knew how long they'd have to wait) - but
applause also to the poster who said "you don't go into battle armed with a
light-sabre and a Charming Attitude" - VERY funny...
Everyone sees movies differently. A 20-y-o friend of mine was put off by my
reaction, and disagreed with me violently when I said TPM was boring. So..
that's what NG posting is all about isn't it?
*Sits back & waits for the flak*
Paul Andinach
> OK, the 2cents worth starts here....
>
> spoiler space
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
->
> Things I haven't seen addressed here so far (or not in this way)
>
> 1. The alien accents.
> My main criticism of the accents are *sigh* I do hate to seem
> terribly PC here, but my recollection of the accents are that they
> are um... Asian, mid-European, possibly German, and in the case of
> Jar-Jar, positively "we's all good slaves down here on de plantation
> massa". *Cringes instinctively and prepares to be shot down in
> flames*
They didn't seem that way to me; they seemed like strange alien
accents that weren't really like anything on Earth.
There was an interesting post, on rec.arts.sf.movies IIRC, suggesting
that the whole accents thing arises at least partly because of our
in-built pattern-finding mechanisms, finding connections that weren't
really there.
-snip-
> but if GL goes to all the trouble (as has been discussed in this
> thread) to remove all human beings from being killed unless they are
> genuine baddies, WHY go so retrograde when it comes to accents?
An interesting point here is that Lucas *hasn't* remove all humans
from being being killed unless they are genuine baddies. For one
thing, all the serious baddies (apart from Darth Maul) survive.
For another, it's not just robots getting snuffed out in those fights
- there's at least one carbon-based-lifeform casualty in most every
battle in the movie, and *because* the Federation uses robots, the
casualties are all good guys (apart from Maul and the bridge staff of
the droid contol ship).
If there's some point to all the battles being with robots, I don't
think it's that George Lucas is trying to avoid criticism about people
dying - more likely, that the good guys are prepared to put themselves
on the line to achieve their aims, and the bad guys aren't.
> 2. Lightsabre duel/s
-snip, because I think Toni has good points here-
> 3. The novel/film biz
-and here-
> 4. The acting
-snip, because what can one say? I liked all the acting, although I
agree Natalie was one of the better-
> 5. The CGI
>
> The force field around the (oh I've forgotten the race name, the
> underwater-dwellers) - the same as in ID4
> Too easy to see how they did it (in the Senate)... but then that's
> probably just me seeing too many SF movies
You're not meant to be impressed just because it's CGI, I think.
CGI is a tool like any other.
The Senate is the way it is because that's the way the Senate is, not
as an excuse to show the CGI off.
> 6. The dissolves (between scenes in case you don't know what I
> mean)
>
> Oh god.... a CLOCK dissolve to show time has passed? Haven't we got
> further than that? Also I NOTICED the dissolves, which means for
> me, they didn't work. And FYI I'm NOT a film student nor do I work
> in the industry.
The dissolves are part of the "homage to the old movie serials of
somebody's youf" package, like the scrolling prologue at the
beginning, and the classical music soundtrack. Sure, we've got further
than that, but that's not really the point, is it?
> All in all, it's the 2-levels bit that disappointed me the most. As
> my friend said to me, even ANTZ worked on more than one level
Are you implying here that you think TPM *didn't* work on more than
one level?
> Applause to the "main reactor in the hangar" poster who said
> "they're not learning that anymore in Mothership 101"
Who said that was the main reactor in the hangar?
All we know is that hitting whatever-it-was, and incidentally doing
major structural damage which nobody ever seems to mention, caused a
lethal fault in the main reactor.
If that *had* been the main reactor, the hangar would probably have
been the first place to blow, and Anakin would have been reduced to
ashes floating through spain.
> Yes, if they HAD their respirators with them, why didn't we see them
> being used in the gas-filled room as well as underwater?
Suggestion - the respirator thingies extract oxygen from the water, so
they either wouldn't work in air or wouldn't be any protection from
the gas.
Paul
Ian Galbraith
wrote:
:OK, the 2cents worth starts here....
:spoiler space (but if you're reading this, beats me how you got this far in
:the thread without having seen the flick)
:Things I haven't seen addressed here so far (or not in this way)
:1. The alien accents.
:I've seen them criticised for not being in a completely alien language with
:subtitles.... well DUH! given that GL knows a large proportion of his
:audience will be under 10, can you expect them to read anything more than
:two or three exchanges without getting bored or not reading fast enough?
No-one can be expected to come up with alien languages.
:My main criticism of the accents are *sigh* I do hate to seem terribly PC
:here, but my recollection of the accents are that they are um... Asian,
:mid-European, possibly German, and in the case of Jar-Jar, positively "we's
:all good slaves down here on de plantation massa". *Cringes instinctively
:and prepares to be shot down in flames*
I agree Lucas was using racial stereotypes. He did it for a good reason
though, to enable us to distinguish between the various groups, which may
be unnecessary. I'm ambivalent about it rather than agreeing with it, but I
don't entirely blame him, he does have to take shortcuts in characterising
some of the characters that only appear briefly.
[snip]
:2. Lightsabre duel/s
[snip talking in duel, I don't see why its necessary to have any dialogue]
:Another part of this is I feel GL lost a couple of really great
:opportunities in the duel/s. When Obi-Wan recovers from hanging by his
:fingertips, you could have had a a great long-shot of Ewan (or did we? only
:saw it once & only recollect the long shot as a set-up for the recovery)
Good point, however that would have involved us seeing Maul being cut in
half in all its glory. I don't think Lucas wanted an M rating.
:Also I felt he pandered a bit too much to the 2-second attention span by
:cutting AROUND the fights and not letting it all become a flowing whole.
:But then that's my criticism of the whole thing, which has been discussed in
:previous posts.
This was more a result of having to cut between the various events, but I
do agree it undercut the duel somewhat, not to a great extent though. The 2
best duels I've seen recently, The Mask of Zorro, and Buffy vs Angel in the
Buffy episode Becoming Pt 2, both did as you described, and were the better
for it..
:3. The novel/film biz
:OK, possibly I can get a whole lot more out of TPM by reading the book. As
:has been stated, SW stood more or less on its own (yes I know you got more
:out of the book, don't start) BUT.... If the whole thing is a set-up,
:there's not enough explanation of:
I agree.
:a) Princess Amidala (sp?) ie, if she's elected, how? what credentials? she's
:obviously highly talented, but also is out of touch with the "real world" as
:we see on Tattooine (damn if I apologise for my spelling every time we'll be
:here all night)
And which would have been so easily fixed by having her as a proper
monarch. I don't think we needed all the details though.
:b) The whole trade-blockade thing, OK I've SEEN the movie and it still
:hasn't stuck in my head how it all happened, but the whole
:Emperor/domination of the galaxy/universe thing in SW was a lot easier to
:retain
More could have been described about the actual trade blockade. On teh
surface it doesn't really make sense except as part of Palpatine's plans.
But no more needed to be said about Palpatine's machinations, it's all done
in a subtle way, and is one of the best things about the movie. Palpatine
basically put himself in a position where all the bases were covered, and
there was a large chance he'd become Supreme Chancellor no matter what.
:c) MIDI-CHLORIAN??? OK, OK, I've read the symbiont/Force thread thingy, but
:introducing it now, when no mention's been made of it in eps 4,5,6? Bit
:redundant. Also when I saw the movie, when the whole Anakin, "there was no
:father" bit was introduced, someone made me giggle a LOT by saying in the
:theatre "Hey, he's Jesus!"
Agreed, probably the worst thing in the movie.
:4. The acting
:It's only MHO.... but Liam & Ewan were both wooden/caricature.
I thought both were very good, Jedi are meant to be calm and in control.
Ewan McGregor's performance of a young Jedi struggling to retain control,
and with a hint of arrogance was perfect. And to top it off he did a very
good impersonation of Alec Guiness, something David and Margaret missed on
The Movie Show.
:Natalie was
:far more into it. And what do they say about acting with children &
She was good.
:animals?
What about CGI beings?
:5. The CGI
:The force field around the (oh I've forgotten the race name, the
:underwater-dwellers) - the same as in ID4
:Too easy to see how they did it (in the Senate)... but then that's probably
:just me seeing too many SF movies
:TOO MUCH!!!! I got very (yawn, what else can you do?)
It fell down in places, especially in the space battle. I know the actual
battle wasn't all that important to see, but it would have been nice.
:6. The dissolves (between scenes in case you don't know what I mean)
:Oh god.... a CLOCK dissolve to show time has passed? Haven't we got further
:than that? Also I NOTICED the dissolves, which means for me, they didn't
:work. And FYI I'm NOT a film student nor do I work in the industry.
They're more properly called wipes IIRC. IMHO they should be used more
often, Lucas uses them quite well to give a sense of movement.
:There you go... what I thought. Only read further if you want to get
:re-hashing
:It didn't flow
Agreed, the whole was definitely not the sum of its parts.
:There was a lack of intelligent dialogue
Do you expect that, even in the originals teh dialogue isn't too good.
:The previous movies I thought worked well to some degree on both a
:child/adult level... viz, Princess Leia saying to Luke "You're a little
:short for a stormtrooper, aren't you?"
:VERY disappointed about the lack of involvement with Darth Maul, SUCH a good
:baddie, I wanted heaps more, and more nastiness. All he did was attack the
:Jedi. Couldn't he have squeezed a few live animals into a drink? (didn't
:Jabba do that in ROTJ?)
He definitely should have had more depth.
:All in all, it's the 2-levels bit that disappointed me the most. As my
:friend said to me, even ANTZ worked on more than one level (haven't seen it
:myself, so have to take her word for it)
It work on a mythic level, but is pretty shallow beyond that. Thematically
there's not much there. And yes Antz did have more than 1 level,
thematically it was about the exploitation of workers.
eloki
>:spoiler space (but if you're reading this, beats me how you got this far in
>:the thread without having seen the flick)
>:Things I haven't seen addressed here so far (or not in this way)
>:1. The alien accents.
>
>No-one can be expected to come up with alien languages.
To be honest, I don't think so. Lucas has made 3 other SW movies that
used subtitles (though to be honest, I can't actually remember any in ESB),
and they've been a hit.. so why not do it again? There's the bounty hunter
in ANH (Greedo), plus Leia herself in ROTJ. But as pointed out, these are
for short spaces of time with incidental characters.
>I agree Lucas was using racial stereotypes. He did it for a good reason
>though, to enable us to distinguish between the various groups, which may
>be unnecessary. I'm ambivalent about it rather than agreeing with it, but I
>don't entirely blame him, he does have to take shortcuts in characterising
>some of the characters that only appear briefly.
Briefly? Jar-Jar isn't brief, nor are those Trade Federation guys. The
Federation seems extremely Asian, and Lucas did not find it necessary to use
existing Earth accents in his older characters. Yoda and Admiral Ackbar are
both recurring characters which speak English (no subtitles) and yet
distinctively. The accents *really* put me off the film, it felt to me like
Lucas was making almost a parody of the SW aliens.
>:Also I felt he pandered a bit too much to the 2-second attention span by
>:cutting AROUND the fights and not letting it all become a flowing whole.
>:But then that's my criticism of the whole thing, which has been discussed in
>:previous posts.
>
>This was more a result of having to cut between the various events, but I
>do agree it undercut the duel somewhat, not to a great extent though. The 2
>best duels I've seen recently, The Mask of Zorro, and Buffy vs Angel in the
>Buffy episode Becoming Pt 2, both did as you described, and were the better
>for it..
It was annoying, but the cutting itself is not the problem. Both ESB and
ROTJ have frequent cuts away from the lightsabre duels. The main problem I
think is that at no point until the end was there anything personal in the
fights. They hadn't met, they had no idea who the other was, they were just
fighting because they both wanted to. That's why dialogue would have been
good; it would have disturbed the tension maybe.
>:It's only MHO.... but Liam & Ewan were both wooden/caricature.
>I thought both were very good, Jedi are meant to be calm and in control.
Yes.. this is actually something that Luke was poor at in the second
trilogy. He cared an awful lot, and that's why he ends up almost being
turned to the dark side.
>They're more properly called wipes IIRC. IMHO they should be used more
>often, Lucas uses them quite well to give a sense of movement.
I think an even better reason for using them is that they are
"traditional" in the SW movies, and connect them together in an abstract
fashion.
>Do you expect that, even in the originals teh dialogue isn't too good.
The humour is much better in the originals. Much better. When I saw it,
people barely laughed at anything. And yet it's not as if we didn't get the
humour.. Jar Jar just isn't funny... though he might be a little funnier if
I could hear what he was saying. Ironically I thought the best joke in the
entire movie (not funny, just the cleverest) was C3P0 saying "You'll never
get ME on one of those things.", because the audience only knows he's wrong
due to the fact that trilogy one is being made after trilogy two..
effectively a SW in-joke.
Paul Andinach
> Ian Galbraith <igalb...@ozonline.com.au> wrote unto us:
>
> > I agree Lucas was using racial stereotypes. He did it for a good
> > reason though, to enable us to distinguish between the various
> > groups, which may be unnecessary. I'm ambivalent about it rather
> > than agreeing with it, but I don't entirely blame him, he does
> > have to take shortcuts in characterising some of the characters
> > that only appear briefly.
>
> Briefly? Jar-Jar isn't brief, nor are those Trade Federation
> guys. The Federation seems extremely Asian, and Lucas did not find
> it necessary to use existing Earth accents in his older characters.
He doesn't seem to have found it necessary to use Earth accents for
the aliens in TPM, either.
I still don't get this "extremely Asian" business. They're not.
Paul
eloki
>He doesn't seem to have found it necessary to use Earth accents for
>the aliens in TPM, either.
>
>I still don't get this "extremely Asian" business. They're not.
Well maybe it's just me, then. But they even look somewhat Asian too...
and still, I know a lot of people found the Gungan accent to be very
Earth-like indeed. What did you think of it?
Daniel Frankham
>OK, the 2cents worth starts here....
>
>spoiler space (but if you're reading this, beats me how you got this far in
>the thread without having seen the flick)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Things I haven't seen addressed here so far (or not in this way)
>
>1. The alien accents.
>
>I've seen them criticised for not being in a completely alien language with
>subtitles.... well DUH! given that GL knows a large proportion of his
>audience will be under 10, can you expect them to read anything more than
>two or three exchanges without getting bored or not reading fast enough?
>
>My main criticism of the accents are *sigh* I do hate to seem terribly PC
>here, but my recollection of the accents are that they are um... Asian,
>mid-European, possibly German, and in the case of Jar-Jar, positively "we's
>all good slaves down here on de plantation massa". *Cringes instinctively
>and prepares to be shot down in flames*
My main gripe with the accents was that I could understand very little
of what the heavily-accented people said. During the early scenes with
the Trade Federation guys, I was expecting subtitles to appear, until
I started to understand a few words. I knew the main villain's name
was Darth Sidious, but it was a mild surprise to me when I looked
through the screenplay and saw that he was actually named in the film.
The apparent "racial coding" behind the accents has been a fairly hot
topic of debate in the US. (see, for example,
http://www.msnbc.com/news/274113.asp).
The problem, AIUI, isn't JJB's accent itself -- the problem is that
the character with that accent is portrayed as such a bumbling
halfwit.
Btw, it was also a surprise to see in the screenplay that much of Jar
Jar's dialogue is incomprehensible in print, too. Got a good laugh in
Target last week, when I saw a series of "Phantom Menace" readers for
children, one of which was about Jar Jar, and consisted largely of Jar
Jar-style nonsense speech. What sort of damage is that going to do to
the kiddies' vocabularies? :)
Anyway, the most interesting response to this I've seen so far is that
such characters (Jar Jar, the Trade Fed guys, Watto et al) are
archetypal character-types who go back thousands of years in myth and
folklore. We can identify them with racial stereotypes because racists
have represented various groups of people as being those archetypes --
but these archetypes are in fact merely the basis of the racial
steretypes, and that just because a new work of fiction in that
folkoric tradition uses those archetypes doesn't make it racist.
(Not that I necessariyl agree with this response... but it has given
me some doubts.)
>OK, I'm NOT viewing TPM as the latest in psychologically advanced and
>balanced film-making, after all Star Wars has been described as a cowboy
>movie in outer space, it's just an escapist action flick etc etc but if GL
>goes to all the trouble (as has been discussed in this thread) to remove all
>human beings from being killed unless they are genuine baddies, WHY go so
>retrograde when it comes to accents?
Considering the pains they seem to have gone to to be "PC", I guess it
really didn't occur to them. After all that apparent effort, it
must've come as a bit of a shock that so many people still found stuff
to criticise them over :)
<snip>
>3. The novel/film biz
>
>OK, possibly I can get a whole lot more out of TPM by reading the book. As
>has been stated, SW stood more or less on its own (yes I know you got more
>out of the book, don't start) BUT.... If the whole thing is a set-up,
>there's not enough explanation of:
>a) Princess Amidala (sp?) ie, if she's elected, how? what credentials? she's
>obviously highly talented, but also is out of touch with the "real world" as
>we see on Tattooine (damn if I apologise for my spelling every time we'll be
>here all night)
>b) The whole trade-blockade thing, OK I've SEEN the movie and it still
>hasn't stuck in my head how it all happened, but the whole
>Emperor/domination of the galaxy/universe thing in SW was a lot easier to
>retain
I liked this aspect of it. I think when the movies are all seen
together, it'll feel "right" that it all starts with something fairly
small and mundane, with wars starting for the same sort of mundane
economic reasons that they start in the real world.
>c) MIDI-CHLORIAN??? OK, OK, I've read the symbiont/Force thread thingy, but
>introducing it now, when no mention's been made of it in eps 4,5,6? Bit
>redundant. Also when I saw the movie, when the whole Anakin, "there was no
>father" bit was introduced, someone made me giggle a LOT by saying in the
>theatre "Hey, he's Jesus!"
Heh heh. The Bible keeps pretty quiet about Jesus' Evil Genocidal
Maniac phase, doesn't it? :)
I wonder if it's widely known who Darth Vader was? Obi-Wan and Luke's
foster parents know, but I wonder if everyone else in the original
trilogy thinks Anakin is dead, and has never made the connection
between him and Darth? Does this come up in the novels or comics,
anyone?
>4. The acting
>
>It's only MHO.... but Liam & Ewan were both wooden/caricature. Natalie was
>far more into it. And what do they say about acting with children &
>animals?
At least there were no baby animals... (Like that damn baby Ewok.
Grr...)
>6. The dissolves (between scenes in case you don't know what I mean)
>
>Oh god.... a CLOCK dissolve to show time has passed? Haven't we got further
>than that? Also I NOTICED the dissolves, which means for me, they didn't
>work. And FYI I'm NOT a film student nor do I work in the industry.
>
>There you go... what I thought. Only read further if you want to get
>re-hashing
>
>It didn't flow
<snip more whingeing> (just kidding :)
I've defended the movie a lot, so maybe it's time to spell out what I
thought was wrong with it: (all IMHO, naturally)
It lacked structure. Most movies have a three-act structure, with each
act separated by a "plot point", which is usually some important
decision or discovery made by the hero[1]. Eg in _A New Hope_ the
first plot point is Luke being forced by circumstances into joining
Obi-Wan; the second is Luke deciding to disobey his new authority
figures by using the Force instead of his battle computer near the
end. These events are bit steps in Luke's progress towards adulthood,
and the film can be viewed as the story of Luke's progress from
farmboy (in Act 1), to Trainee Hero (in Act 2), to Adult (in Act 3).
Though few people are aware of it, practically all good movies can be
broken down into a simple structure like this, and though it's
invisible to most people this structure seems to be a large part of
what makes a good movie feel "satisfying". As far as I could see,
_Phantom Menace_ didn't have such a structure -- it might be there
somewhere, but it's not a good sign when you look for it as hard as I
have and can't find it. (OTOH I'm not much of a movie guru, so maybe
it's just me...)
The main reason for this lack of structure, I think, is that _PM_
doesn't really have a main character. You've got Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan,
who are on-screen the longest, but they don't really develop as
characters, so there's no satisfying "character-arc" with these guys.
Likewise the Queen -- like the Jedi, she's a nice character, but she
doesn't develop. The trouble is, these guys are all too good already,
too "together", too uncinematically serene. There's nothing for them
to develop into, since they're already as good as they can be. Whereas
in _ANH_ you've got Luke, who has a lot of room to develop from
whining farm boy to galaxy-saving hero; and Han Solo, who can develop
from apparently-amoral-but-lovable-bad-boy to galaxy-saving-hero.
Maybe our supremely capable and together Jedi needed a less perfect
regular Joe sidekick to provide the colour and character development
fully-fledged Jedi knights can't. But not Jar Jar.
Is Anakin the main character? Maybe... but his character arc stretches
over all 6 movies, so that in the end the entire Star Wars saga will
be the story of his fall and redemption, making _Phantom Menace_ just
(presumably) a third of Act 1 of Anakin's story. And unlike ANH, PM
doesn't have it's own satisfying self-contained structure to make up
for it being just a segment of a longer story.
What it feels like is a couple of instalments of an old-fashioned
action/sf serial like _Flash Gordon_, with credits stripped off and
strung together to make a movie. That's the level it really worked for
me, a series of more or less self-contained brilliant action
sequences. This makes it a lot more fun to watch than most other
movies, including those with structure and character development :)
Just not as good as films like _A New Hope_ or _Empire Strikes Back_,
which have it all.
In a nutshell I loved the movie for all sorts of reasons -- the great
action, the in-jokes, the amazing visuals, even the political stuff
was kind of interesting, giving the conflict a bit more "authenticity"
than the previous films. But in the end there was an absence of that
indefinable sense of satisfaction that comes after seeing a really
good movie. By the time all six films are in the can and on my video
shelf, ready for annual marathon viewings[2], this problem will
probably have been covered by the overall structure of the saga.
Then again, my opinion of it may change completely next time I see it
:)
[1] Can you pick the "How to Write Screenplays"-book-reading wannabe
scriptwriter? :)
[2] Fast forwarding through the Ewok scenes, natch.
Daniel Frankham
>> spoiler space
>
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>
>An interesting point here is that Lucas *hasn't* remove all humans
>from being being killed unless they are genuine baddies. For one
>thing, all the serious baddies (apart from Darth Maul) survive.
>For another, it's not just robots getting snuffed out in those fights
>- there's at least one carbon-based-lifeform casualty in most every
>battle in the movie, and *because* the Federation uses robots, the
>casualties are all good guys (apart from Maul and the bridge staff of
>the droid contol ship).
>
>If there's some point to all the battles being with robots, I don't
>think it's that George Lucas is trying to avoid criticism about people
>dying - more likely, that the good guys are prepared to put themselves
>on the line to achieve their aims, and the bad guys aren't.
The point is that the good guys don't kill anyone except nasty people.
Lots of the good guys die, but no "innocents" are killed by the good
guys, unlike the previous films.
(Actually, a source close to George Lucas has said they made sure that
only bad Gungans, who were cruel to fish and didn't take care of their
elderly mothers, were killed in the battle.) :)
<snip>
>If that *had* been the main reactor, the hangar would probably have
>been the first place to blow, and Anakin would have been reduced to
>ashes floating through spain.
Obscure Doctor Who reference alert! :)
jmcguire
>
> OK, the 2cents worth starts here....
>
> spoiler space (but if you're reading this, beats me how you got this far in
> the thread without having seen the flick)
>
> Things I haven't seen addressed here so far (or not in this way)
> 2. Lightsabre duel/s
>
> I do agree that the dialogue adds heaps to the previous duels. I do not
> agree that a balanced duel between masters means they do not use dialogue,
> they're too busy concentrating. Take duelling as an art
> form/skill/whatever, isn't upsetting dialogue PART of the duel? (Imagine
> Yoda teaching duelling language for a real hoot)
>
> Another part of this is I feel GL lost a couple of really great
> opportunities in the duel/s. When Obi-Wan recovers from hanging by his
> fingertips, you could have had a a great long-shot of Ewan (or did we? only
> saw it once & only recollect the long shot as a set-up for the recovery)
> Also I felt he pandered a bit too much to the 2-second attention span by
> cutting AROUND the fights and not letting it all become a flowing whole.
> But then that's my criticism of the whole thing, which has been discussed in
> previous posts.
I don't think it helped that I saw "The Princess Bride" on video the
same day as TPM. The Inigo vs Wesley was (in my not even remotely humble
opinion) much better shot than the lightsabre duel in TMP. TMP suffered
from "zoom right in so we can't really get a good view of what is going
on" syndrome, much like fight scenes in many early James Bond movies.
More longer shots, where we could see the choreography would have been
better.
As far as dialogue during the fight goes, I feel that there should have
been more. The Jedi were on a fact finding mission. Obi-Wan's report
would read something like "Very well trained in personal combat, does
not react well to being cut in two.". Getting Maul to talk would let the
Jedi (and us) get a better understanding of the Sith.
Just my $0.02 worth
Justin McGuire
Paul Andinach
> The point is that the good guys don't kill anyone except nasty
> people. Lots of the good guys die, but no "innocents" are killed by
> the good guys, unlike the previous films.
I could of course be wrong, but don't both ANH and ROJ contain scenes
of technicians and suchlike running for the escape pods?
Paul
Brett O'Callaghan
>> OK, the 2cents worth starts here....
>>
>> spoiler space
>
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>->
>If there's some point to all the battles being with robots, I don't
>think it's that George Lucas is trying to avoid criticism about people
>dying - more likely, that the good guys are prepared to put themselves
>on the line to achieve their aims, and the bad guys aren't.
And one of George's favourite themes - the natural world vs the
mechanical world.
It's also quite interesting that both the first and last films in the
six film series feature a land-battle between the forces of evil and
underestimated (by the baddies, and initially the goodies) "primitive"
peoples....
Daniel Frankham
Not sure about ROTJ, but I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen in ANH.
It all happened too suddenly, I think. I plan to watch it again soon,
so I'll have a look. Possibly by the time of ROTJ they knew better
than to stay at their workstations, just because there was only a
million to one chance of an explosive death :)
Paul Andinach
> On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:18:05 +0800, Paul Andinach wrote:
>
> > I could of course be wrong, but don't both ANH and ROJ contain
> > scenes of technicians and suchlike running for the escape pods?
>
> Not sure about ROTJ, but I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen in ANH.
There's definitely shots of people running around shouting and
suchlike. It'd be nice to think that some of them had the sense to run
shouting in the direction of the escape pods.
> It all happened too suddenly, I think.
They have time to at least think of evacuating, because someone asks
Moff Tarkin if he wants to leave, and Tarkin says "What? In our moment
of triumph?"
Paul
Daniel Frankham
It seems to me that the Death Star must have seemed pretty
indestructible, so they probably would've only had escape pods for the
senior crew members. Would the Empire waste previous resources
building escape pods for civilian workers? It was, after all, the size
of a small moon, so to have enough pods for everyone on board would
have been a big ask.
Paul Andinach
> It seems to me that the Death Star must have seemed pretty
> indestructible, so they probably would've only had escape pods for
> the senior crew members. Would the Empire waste previous resources
> building escape pods for civilian workers? It was, after all, the
> size of a small moon, so to have enough pods for everyone on board
> would have been a big ask.
I'm not sure there's necessarily a correlation between the size of the
Death Star and the size of its crew. Most of the space would be taken
up by mechanisms and warp engines and suchlike, surely?
Paul
Paul Harrington
Daniel Frankham <dan...@oztek.net.au> wrote in article
<375e6565...@loomi.telstra.net>...
> On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 20:24:30 +1000, Toni Maxwell wrote:
> >OK, the 2cents worth starts here....
> >
> >spoiler space (but if you're reading this, beats me how you got this far
in
> >the thread without having seen the flick)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Clipped & Edited
> It lacked structure. Most movies have a three-act structure, with each
> act separated by a "plot point", which is usually some important
> decision or discovery made by the hero[1]. Eg in _A New Hope_ the
> first plot point is Luke being forced by circumstances into joining
> Obi-Wan; the second is Luke deciding to disobey his new authority
> figures by using the Force instead of his battle computer near the
> end. These events are bit steps in Luke's progress towards adulthood,
> and the film can be viewed as the story of Luke's progress from
> farmboy (in Act 1), to Trainee Hero (in Act 2), to Adult (in Act 3).
>
> [1] Can you pick the "How to Write Screenplays"-book-reading wannabe
> scriptwriter? :)
>
I suspect you weren't reading those manuals closely enough. There's no way
that Act 3 in ANH begins with Luke switching off his navigation gear. Act 3
is the entire attack on the Death Star by the Rebel Forces. The plot point
propelling us into the final act is of couse Obi Wan's death. The 3 Act
structure is based around plot points where the main character is at a
lowest ebb, compelling him to make a choice or die. Hence the plot point at
the end of the first act is Luke's discovery of the murder of his uncle and
aunt and his subsequent decision to follow Obi Wan.
> Though few people are aware of it, practically all good movies can be
> broken down into a simple structure like this, and though it's
> invisible to most people this structure seems to be a large part of
> what makes a good movie feel "satisfying". As far as I could see,
> _Phantom Menace_ didn't have such a structure -- it might be there
> somewhere, but it's not a good sign when you look for it as hard as I
> have and can't find it. (
Not necessarily. It just may be less cliched and obvious. You don't get to
say that about Lucas that often.
Pharro
Daniel Frankham
I watched it tonight -- no sign of anyone escaping from the Death
Star. At one point Leslie Schofield informs Peter Cushing that there's
a danger, and asks if he'd like his ship to be prepared. Cushing turns
down the offer.
As for the size of the station not necessarily reflecting its
population -- fair enough, I suppose.
Shay Gordon-Brown
Another point about the disappearing trick. We saw Obi-Wan and Yoda and
I do believe we are supposed to see Anakin's body disappear as well as
all three become spirits. This is seemingly a causative relationship ie
if your body disappears when you die you become a spirit. I have a
feeling this has something to do with being the jedi of the light side
of the force. Those on the light side are at one with the universe -
they let the force flow through them and guide them. The dark side of
the force uses the force as a tool, they wield it which is the opposite
to the light side of the force. Now this is a bit of a leap as I've two
and two together and made five. The first time I read anything about
Qui-Gon Jinn is that he was a venerable jedi and that he was a grey
jedi. At that stage he didn't even have a name. I read this in a number
of different articles etc which makes me believe that it was true that
jedi may exist straddling either side of the force, letting it use you
and you use it. I think this might make sense in the light of Qui-Gon
always butting heads with the jedi council. They are of the light and
don't always approve of his ways. Anyway, the grey jedi may not be able
to be at one with the universe like the light side jedi do, ergo he
doesn't disappear or become a spirit.
Shay
Shay Gordon-Brown
>
> Edward McArdle (deletethis...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
> :
> : Actually Obi-Wan hasn't passed his finals yet. He may be about to be
> : trained by Yoda in Part 2!
>
> knight status towards the end...this would imply he passed the
> trials..? i would like to see those trials
>
It wasn't a trial but a test. That test was facing Maul, just as Luke
faced Vader. It is not a formal test, just an episode in your life,
that shows your mettle. It is your defining moment. Unfortunately a
movie cannot express what someone is thinking so the movie tends to fall
short a little when the question of internal conflict arises. The novels
handle it better.
This is a bit of a disappointment to me during the final battle scene
between Luke and the Emperor. There is Luke's internal fight which I
don't think is that important as he is resolved to turn Vader or die
trying. The important internal conflict is Vader's. During his battle
with Luke he can see that Luke has the fortitude not to be turned. He
then begins to question himself and look back on his life. He has to
make a decision. A defining moment is to save the Emperor, his mentor
and master or to save his son. He chooses his son and thus redeems
himself becoming a light jedi once more. Unfortunately all we get to see
is Vader turning his head back and forth like he's watching a tennis
match.
I'd really like to see a super special edition released with Vader
having flashbacks during the Luke and Emperor altercation.
Shay
eloki
>This is a bit of a disappointment to me during the final battle scene
>between Luke and the Emperor. There is Luke's internal fight which I
>don't think is that important as he is resolved to turn Vader or die
>trying. The important internal conflict is Vader's.
I'm not sure I agree here.. Luke is quite close to being turned until he
chops off Vader's hand and sees what he's done. It's his anger and hatred
that is winning his lightsabre battle with Vader, but it's also proving his
undoing as a Jedi. It's when he realises this that he tells the Emperor
he'll never turn to the dark side.
>He has to make a decision. A defining moment is to save the Emperor, his
>mentor and master or to save his son.
The Emperor didn't need saving, he had Luke helpless and writhing on the
ground from the lightning!
Shay Gordon-Brown
>
> OK, the 2cents worth starts here....
>
> spoiler space (but if you're reading this, beats me how you got this far in
> the thread without having seen the flick)
>
> Things I haven't seen addressed here so far (or not in this way)
>
> 1. The alien accents.
>
> I've seen them criticised for not being in a completely alien language with
> subtitles.... well DUH! given that GL knows a large proportion of his
> audience will be under 10, can you expect them to read anything more than
> two or three exchanges without getting bored or not reading fast enough?
>
> My main criticism of the accents are *sigh* I do hate to seem terribly PC
> here, but my recollection of the accents are that they are um... Asian,
> mid-European, possibly German, and in the case of Jar-Jar, positively "we's
> all good slaves down here on de plantation massa". *Cringes instinctively
> and prepares to be shot down in flames*
I missed that whole thing.
I missed the supposedly obvious jewish reference in Watto which is also
obviously arab reference to others. I also missed the obvious
african-american reference in Jar-Jar which is also apparently extremely
Jamaican to to others. This was of course obvious due to his extremely
black skin and flattened features. I missed totally the Asian
characteristics of the Neimoidians. Forgive me that I didn't put 2 and 2
together and saw that characters who are interested in business and have
green/grey skin are obviously Asian.
I guess I'm in the boat of people who leave their prejudices at the
door. You should perhaps do the same. (Cringe here)
> OK, I'm NOT viewing TPM as the latest in psychologically advanced and
> balanced film-making, after all Star Wars has been described as a cowboy
> movie in outer space, it's just an escapist action flick etc etc but if GL
> goes to all the trouble (as has been discussed in this thread) to remove all
> human beings from being killed unless they are genuine baddies, WHY go so
> retrograde when it comes to accents?
I can't believe I am reading this. Prejudice is not only skin deep it
is stupid too. I'll make an obvious conclusion - are you a journalist?
> 3. The novel/film biz
>
> OK, possibly I can get a whole lot more out of TPM by reading the book. As
> has been stated, SW stood more or less on its own (yes I know you got more
> out of the book, don't start) BUT.... If the whole thing is a set-up,
> there's not enough explanation of:
> a) Princess Amidala (sp?) ie, if she's elected, how? what credentials? she's
> obviously highly talented, but also is out of touch with the "real world" as
> we see on Tattooine (damn if I apologise for my spelling every time we'll be
> here all night)
George Lucas has not just created a universe but he's created worlds.
Each world unique like our countries are unique. Each has a different
form of government which are sometimes similar to ours and sometimes
different. Do we need to know the internal workings? No. It is
unimportant. I am very certain that if a character took the time to
explain the workings of the Naboo government the criticism would be very
similar to the criticisms we are getting now about the midi-chlorians.
Too involved and not required. You just can't please some people.
For the record, it is in the books, Amidala was elected Queen at the age
of twelve. She comes from a humble peasant village. She is not the
youngest ruler ever. She can abdicate any time she wishes.
I have no idea why you consider Amidala is 'out of touch with the real
world'. Could you give an example?
> b) The whole trade-blockade thing, OK I've SEEN the movie and it still
> hasn't stuck in my head how it all happened, but the whole
> Emperor/domination of the galaxy/universe thing in SW was a lot easier to
> retain
The republic has imposed taxes on trade routes. The trade federation is
against the taxes. They have formed a blockade. It's just a big union
strike and a picket line which turns nasty as they all eventually do.
> c) MIDI-CHLORIAN??? OK, OK, I've read the symbiont/Force thread thingy, but
> introducing it now, when no mention's been made of it in eps 4,5,6? Bit
> redundant. Also when I saw the movie, when the whole Anakin, "there was no
> father" bit was introduced, someone made me giggle a LOT by saying in the
> theatre "Hey, he's Jesus!"
Redundant? Remember this is episode 1. It would be redundant to go
through the same thing in episode 4. It is not the other way around.
Anakin is 'jesus'. It is classic mythology, christian this time around.
> There you go... what I thought. Only read further if you want to get
> re-hashing
> Everyone sees movies differently. A 20-y-o friend of mine was put off by my
> reaction, and disagreed with me violently when I said TPM was boring. So..
> that's what NG posting is all about isn't it?
> *Sits back & waits for the flak*
I hope you enjoyed your flak. I certainly enjoyed giving it. I'd
address other points but I'm tired. Except to say I can't figure out why
someone would say a movie was boring but then chooses to write a well
documented criticism. Logic would dictate that it would mean that the
movie was thought provoking. If you are bored with thinking there is no
hope.
Shay
Paul Andinach
> Toni Maxwell wrote:
>
> > a) Princess Amidala (sp?) ie, if she's elected, how? what
> > credentials? she's obviously highly talented, but also is out of
> > touch with the "real world" as we see on Tattooine (damn if I
> > apologise for my spelling every time we'll be here all night)
-snip-
> I have no idea why you consider Amidala is 'out of touch with the
> real world'. Could you give an example?
I assume this is referring to "I can't believe there's still slavery
in the galaxy".
Paul
--
"Tip #3: Get a Prop. George Burns had a cigar. Jack Benny had a
violin. George Bush had Dan Quayle."
- "How To Be FunnY", David J. Parker and Samuel Stoddard
Paul Andinach
> Shay Gordon-Brown <sha...@uq.net.au> wrote unto us:
>
> > This is a bit of a disappointment to me during the final battle
> > scene between Luke and the Emperor. There is Luke's internal
> > fight which I don't think is that important as he is resolved to
> > turn Vader or die trying. The important internal conflict is
> > Vader's.
>
> I'm not sure I agree here.. Luke is quite close to being turned
> until he chops off Vader's hand and sees what he's done.
Good point.
-snip-
> > He has to make a decision. A defining moment is to save the
> > Emperor, his mentor and master or to save his son.
>
> The Emperor didn't need saving, he had Luke helpless and writhing
> on the ground from the lightning!
Not such a good point. By choosing not to help Luke, he's saving the
Emperor from being murderered by Luke's father. Obviously. :)
eloki
>> The Emperor didn't need saving, he had Luke helpless and writhing
>> on the ground from the lightning!
>
>Not such a good point. By choosing not to help Luke, he's saving the
>Emperor from being murderered by Luke's father. Obviously. :)
Well, okay, but I don't consider that saving :P Saving implies the
Emperor was in trouble, and he wasn't in any. If both the Emperor and Luke
were hanging by one hand over a thousand foot drop and Vader only had time
to grab one of them... now *that* is deciding who to save ;)
Danny
Shay Gordon-Brown <sha...@uq.net.au>, and they spake of Re: The Phantom Menace
(this is VERY long):
More Spoiler Space
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
>Toni Maxwell wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> Things I haven't seen addressed here so far (or not in this way)
>>
>> 1. The alien accents.
<snip>
>> My main criticism of the accents are *sigh* I do hate to seem terribly PC
>> here, but my recollection of the accents are that they are um... Asian,
>> mid-European, possibly German, and in the case of Jar-Jar, positively "we's
>> all good slaves down here on de plantation massa". *Cringes instinctively
>> and prepares to be shot down in flames*
>
>I missed that whole thing.
>I missed the supposedly obvious jewish reference in Watto which is also
>obviously arab reference to others. I also missed the obvious
>african-american reference in Jar-Jar which is also apparently extremely
>Jamaican to to others. This was of course obvious due to his extremely
>black skin and flattened features. I missed totally the Asian
>characteristics of the Neimoidians. Forgive me that I didn't put 2 and 2
>together and saw that characters who are interested in business and have
>green/grey skin are obviously Asian.
I picked up the *accents* - The Neimoidians had that "Chinese person who isn't
fluent speaking english" accent, and the speech of the Gungan *is* similar
to that of some African-American-Carribean-whatever people on earth, but I
didn't pick up the Watto-Shylock-Fagin reference that was supposedly there, and
I'm Jewish myself! Hah, I guess I don't spot stereotypes when I see them.
Anyway, although the *accents* were there, I'm not claiming that these aliens
were *supposed* to represent the equivalent races on earth, I just think that
it was a bit of a copout to use recognisable accents... Oh well.
Mind you, although Ahmed Best (Jar Jar) is a Black American, Brian Blessed (Boss
Nass) is British born and bred, and a damn good actor :)
Those people claiming that the accents immediately imply that the Gungans are
African-American slaves and the Trade federation are the invading Chinese need
their heads read - it's just the accents, people :)
>I guess I'm in the boat of people who leave their prejudices at the
>door. You should perhaps do the same. (Cringe here)
<snip>
>> b) The whole trade-blockade thing, OK I've SEEN the movie and it still
>> hasn't stuck in my head how it all happened, but the whole
>> Emperor/domination of the galaxy/universe thing in SW was a lot easier to
>> retain
>
>The republic has imposed taxes on trade routes. The trade federation is
>against the taxes. They have formed a blockade. It's just a big union
>strike and a picket line which turns nasty as they all eventually do.
Why Naboo? Is it like, a major exporter of goods on the trade route, and thus
by blockading the "factory" planet, other planets can't get what they want and
thus will bow to the trade federation's demands? I assume this is probably
the case - as witnessed in Australia last year, if the Wharfies blockade the
docks, nothing gets out, nothing gets in and everyone loses until the dispute is
settled.
Although blocking the trade route because they want to avoid taxes seems a bit
of a "annoyed proletarian" thing to do, rather than EVIL! We only know the trade
federation is EVIL because they talk to Darth Sidious.
Of course, I presume most people noticed that the reason that this trade
blockade was on in the first place is that Sidious/Palpatine engineered the
whole thing! He chose Naboo as (presumably) it's his homeworld and he knew
exactly what Amidala would do, and then by playing both sides (advising both
Amidala and The Neimoidians) he managed to manipulate *everyone* and get what
he wanted - Supreme Chancellorship - and the trust of pretty much everyone!
What a bastard.
>
>Shay
Seeya. Danny.
--
+-----------------------+--------------------------------------------+
|Danny @ Scoutnet.net.au|http://come.to/grovers http://surf.to/scouts|
|GRovers South Australia| http://www.scoutnet.net.au/users/Danny/ |
+-----------------------+--------------------------------------------+
Ian Galbraith
:More Spoiler Space
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
[snip]
:I picked up the *accents* - The Neimoidians had that "Chinese person who isn't
:fluent speaking english" accent, and the speech of the Gungan *is* similar
I thought it was more of a Charlie Chan, Japanese accent, but it wasn't all
that clear which is a point in the movies favour.
[snip]
:Of course, I presume most people noticed that the reason that this trade
:blockade was on in the first place is that Sidious/Palpatine engineered the
:whole thing! He chose Naboo as (presumably) it's his homeworld and he knew
:exactly what Amidala would do, and then by playing both sides (advising both
:Amidala and The Neimoidians) he managed to manipulate *everyone* and get what
:he wanted - Supreme Chancellorship - and the trust of pretty much everyone!
He chose Naboo because he knew the sympathy vote no matter what happened
would get him the Supreme Chancellorship.
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
:For the record, it is in the books, Amidala was elected Queen at the age
:of twelve. She comes from a humble peasant village. She is not the
:youngest ruler ever. She can abdicate any time she wishes.
This makes the whole election thing even worse. I could almost buy it if
she was from some powerful house, but a peasant village????
[snip]
:Anakin is 'jesus'. It is classic mythology, christian this time around.
I would have thought Luke was Jesus. Did Jesus ever go bad and slaughter
lots of people?
[snip]
Mike
Shay Gordon-Brown wrote (I think you wrote but the thread was so long.):
> For the record, it is in the books, Amidala was elected Queen at the age
> of twelve. She comes from a humble peasant village. She is not the
> youngest ruler ever. She can abdicate any time she wishes
Which book(s), Shay? What publication date?
Cheers
Mike
Perth, Western Australia
Shay Gordon-Brown
>
> Shay Gordon-Brown wrote (I think you wrote but the thread was so long.):
>
> > of twelve. She comes from a humble peasant village. She is not the
>
> Which book(s), Shay? What publication date?
>
> Cheers
>
> Mike
>
> Perth, Western Australia
Star Wars Episode 1
The Visual Dictionary
Queen Amidala on page 24
I'm quite sure I have it in another book too but I can't find it. I've
searched the novelisations, a bit quickly perhaps, but it seems to skim
over her election and past and focuses more on her abilities as a ruler.
It could also be in 'The making of episode 1' as well but unfortunately
it doesn't have a table of contents it's more of a long running
commentary that goes wherever the writer wants to go.
These are all very good books and tell you a hell of a lot of the
background information. This is what GL and his team had to devise to
get a universe up and running. Every little piddly detail is in there.
Also there is the 'Incredible Cross Sections' for anyone who is
interested in the technical side of thing.
I don't own the script book yet but I should be getting it in a few
days. It should be good read too.
Shay
Daniel Frankham
>On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:25:34 +1000, Shay Gordon-Brown wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>:of twelve. She comes from a humble peasant village. She is not the
>:youngest ruler ever. She can abdicate any time she wishes.
>
>she was from some powerful house, but a peasant village????
I must admit I'd rationalised it this way myself. That rather than
political parties, they must have family groups (since "queen" is a title
associated with hereditary rule), and the person in each family who would
rule if the family was elected was determined by some sort of hereditary
rules. So the voters had voted for Amidala's family/party, even though the
ruler of their planet would end up being a kid; or maybe the family has an
x-year term, and the original ruler died, and she was next in line. Or
something.
I prefer my explanation to the idea that lots of people vote for peasant
children :)
Guess that novel can't be canon, then...
Daniel Frankham
>I'm quite sure I have it in another book too but I can't find it. I've
>searched the novelisations, a bit quickly perhaps, but it seems to skim
>over her election and past and focuses more on her abilities as a ruler.
>
>It could also be in 'The making of episode 1' as well but unfortunately
>it doesn't have a table of contents it's more of a long running
>commentary that goes wherever the writer wants to go.
>
>These are all very good books and tell you a hell of a lot of the
>background information. This is what GL and his team had to devise to
>get a universe up and running. Every little piddly detail is in there.
>Also there is the 'Incredible Cross Sections' for anyone who is
>interested in the technical side of thing.
>
>I don't own the script book yet but I should be getting it in a few
>days. It should be good read too.
It is very interesting. Apart from scenes which didn't make it into the
finished movie, it also includes a lot of the original storyboards, so you
can see how some characters and places changed their look between
conception and the finished product. Darth Maul in particular has a
notably different set of cranial bumps in some of the pics. And Padme
sports something very like Princess Leia's earmuff hairstyle in the final
battle :)
(Hope that stuff doesn't constitute spoilers).
Mike
Shay Gordon-Brown wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>
> > Which book(s), Shay? What publication date?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Perth, Western Australia
>
> Star Wars Episode 1
> The Visual Dictionary
> Queen Amidala on page 24
>
> I'm quite sure I have it in another book too but I can't find it. I've
> searched the novelisations, a bit quickly perhaps, but it seems to skim
> over her election and past and focuses more on her abilities as a ruler.
>
> It could also be in 'The making of episode 1' as well but unfortunately
> it doesn't have a table of contents it's more of a long running
> commentary that goes wherever the writer wants to go.
>
> These are all very good books and tell you a hell of a lot of the
> background information. This is what GL and his team had to devise to
> get a universe up and running. Every little piddly detail is in there.
> Also there is the 'Incredible Cross Sections' for anyone who is
> interested in the technical side of thing.
>
> I don't own the script book yet but I should be getting it in a few
> days. It should be good read too.
>
> Shay
Joe Lipson
Joe
Shay Gordon-Brown
>
> On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:15:43 GMT, Ian Galbraith wrote:
> >On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:25:34 +1000, Shay Gordon-Brown wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >:of twelve. She comes from a humble peasant village. She is not the
> >:youngest ruler ever. She can abdicate any time she wishes.
> >
> >she was from some powerful house, but a peasant village????
>
> I must admit I'd rationalised it this way myself. That rather than
> political parties, they must have family groups (since "queen" is a title
> associated with hereditary rule), and the person in each family who would
> rule if the family was elected was determined by some sort of hereditary
> rules. So the voters had voted for Amidala's family/party, even though the
> ruler of their planet would end up being a kid; or maybe the family has an
> x-year term, and the original ruler died, and she was next in line. Or
> something.
>
> I prefer my explanation to the idea that lots of people vote for peasant
> children :)
>
> Guess that novel can't be canon, then...
I think the Amidala election thing is more akin to the appointment of
the Dalai Lama. Not that she is a reincarnation of the previous ruler
but there is a more mystical, quasi religious type feel to the
appointment especially since she is obviously a child.
Shay
Jason Stokes
wrote:
>I think the Amidala election thing is more akin to the appointment of
>the Dalai Lama.
That's not an election. They go out to his home village (or is it his home
region -- I don't remember) and show a bunch of objects to a bunch of boy
children. The child that can pick out the most objects the old Dalai Lama
used to own becomes the new Dalai Lama, on the grounds that he "remembers"
his old life. This is an ancient spiritual tradition which just happens to
be, from western eyes, superstitious absurdity. Of course, the kid is just
responding to a set of unintentional cues, commonsense observations (a monk
is going to own a prayer wheel) and luck.
--
Jason Stokes: js...@bluedog.apana.org.au
Shay Gordon-Brown
I know the Dalai Lama is not elected I was just comparing Amidala's
appointment as akin to it ie similar. I gather that there is some
spiritual type reason that she was put forward as a contender to be
elected queen. I'm not quite sure how she is 'democratically' elected.
She may be elected by a council only, ie the council represents the
people they make a vote so she is democratically elected. There may not
even be other candidates, a yes/no vote may all that is required.
Shay
Shay
Robbie Matthews
[snip]
>I know the Dalai Lama is not elected I was just comparing Amidala's
>appointment as akin to it ie similar. I gather that there is some
>spiritual type reason that she was put forward as a contender to be
>elected queen. I'm not quite sure how she is 'democratically' elected.
>She may be elected by a council only, ie the council represents the
>people they make a vote so she is democratically elected. There may not
>even be other candidates, a yes/no vote may all that is required.
Yes, how does one get a democratically elected Queen?
It's just possible that you have a constitutional monarchy with an
hereditary head of state, and it is possible for that head to state to be
elected as head of Government as well.
Seems a bit unlikely, but you never know.
Robbie
Bruce Fountain
>
> On Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:40:19 +1000, "Robbie Matthews"
> <rob...@dynamite.com.au> wrote:
>
> >Yes, how does one get a democratically elected Queen?
>
> from each of Malaysia's consituent states, who elect one of their
> member to be king for a specified period of time.(4 years IIRCC)
>
> Each state has a council of 'lords' who elect a overall lord for
> their state (in times past this was the king of the state, not sure
> about now), from these state 'kings' the overall king is chosen.
> However the 'lords' from the states are heriditary positions
>
> Techinically it is a constitutional monarchy, but the king still has a
> lot of sway.
>
> Maybe she is elected in this sense.
This makes sense. Perhaps it is really her family that is elected, and
she holds the (hereditary) leadership of her family.
Regards,
Bruce
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bruce Fountain NEC Australia - New Product Development |
| bruce_f...@neca.nec.com.au Tel: +612 9930 2238 Fax: +612 9930 2233 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Gogmagog
Craig Turner wrote in message <376d799d...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
>On Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:40:19 +1000, "Robbie Matthews"
><rob...@dynamite.com.au> wrote:
>>Yes, how does one get a democratically elected Queen?
Back during the middle ages, the Holy Roman Emperor was elected - at least
initially. Many cultures throughout history have elected 'kings' (just from
memory the Celtic and Germanic peoples for example). Primogeniture and the
idea of the 'divine rule' of kings (and queens) is not necessarily the norm.
G.
Shay Gordon-Brown
Both the Germans and the Danes used to elect Kings. But again they were
from noble houses. Amidala is from peasant stock.
Shay