The plan for the new space from the presentation today

[Matt Mancuso]

If anyone is interested in a more detailed look at the space plan I
made up: http://imgur.com/a/SITkY
I designed this using Sweet Home 3D a free program for windows/linux/mac/java
Download it here: http://www.sweethome3d.com/download.jsp
Don't use the java executable version unless you know how to increase
the available memory to java, the default of 96mb is way too low for
rendering our space.
If you want a copy of the design I made, for reference or
modification, write me and I'll email it to you. I also have a blank
floorplan if anyone wants to come up with their own design from
scratch.

[EBo]

;-) sweet

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 02:24:06 -0600, Matt Mancuso wrote:
> If anyone is interested in a more detailed look at the space plan I
> made up: http://imgur.com/a/SITkY
>

> ...

[Ardie Scott Powell]

Having never visited the potential new space I'll ask...where does
that staircase leading down go to?

[Martin Bogomolni]

The staircase goes -up- to a second floor that will be constructed.

On Jan 29, 2012 8:29 AM, "Ardie Scott Powell" <scottpo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Having never visited the potential new space I'll ask...where does
that staircase leading down go to?

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[Ardie Scott Powell]

Or does it go up? That makes more sense. Some pictures seem to
depict it going up to an area above the offices while others seem to
depict it going down to a basement area.

[Scott Saunders]

I've been playing around with some ideas for the new space in Sweet Home 3D. If anyone is going to be around this afternoon, I'd love to talk about them. Anybody going to be at the space?

- Scott

[Scott Saunders]

I've been playing with some ideas for the new space. I've attached plans and invite your comments. If anyone would like the Sweet Home 3D file, I'm happy to send it.

- Scott

[Amishacker]

Hmm, I have my misgivings about the studio being in contact with an
outside wall. I don't like the wall of storage since it strikes me as
a splendid way for people to obstruct each other. I liked the lounge
where it was, but I see merit in to attaching it to the kitchen.

I do like the flex/class space best, since I think a large versatile
room was lacking in the original. I like your consideration about
ventilation.

Specifying some idea of the floorplan for the shop is good, since the
reality is we will not be able to simply wheel tools out of the way.
There will be accretion of tools, and expecting everything on that
floor to be mobile is... problematic.

Something to think on. Good work!

On Jan 31, 1:57 pm, Scott Saunders <m...@bertucciinc.com> wrote:
> I've been playing with some ideas for the new space. I've attached plans and invite your comments. If anyone would like the Sweet Home 3D file, I'm happy to send it.
>
> - Scott
>

>  ATXHack_1.pdf
> 165KViewDownload
>
>  ATXHack_2.pdf
> 79KViewDownload

[Scott Saunders]

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm picturing the Class/Conference room as the main public space. That would be the space used for open houses, meetings, classes that are open to the public, etc. For events like DorkBot or Make-Sales, we'd open up the big wall and have a 660 sq ft space for the public (plus the kitchen and easy restroom access). It's right by the front door and no one has to walk past anything dangerous or dirty.

You're right about the stairs and server room door. We can certainly drop a door in front of the stairs, and maybe move the Storage Hall door up ("north"). I like the idea of having a straight shot into the shop and up the stairs from the front door to facilitate carrying stuff. Moving that door up would also better secure the server room. Tim expressed a preference that the server room was sort of central - not against the shop or an outside wall.

I'm not sure what you mean about people obstructing each other in the Storage Hall. I'm not picturing people hanging out there, and there are a number of ways to get from any room to another without using that hall. The mini-hall from the front into the lounge - between the server room and front closet - may be obscured by all the lines. The storage is actually one of my favorite parts. We need a lot of organized storage space and room for member boxes. And this location provides a sound and heat buffer between the shop and the meeting spaces up front.

I agree that the shop should be planned out. I haven't done that here mainly because I don't have tool dimensions and didn't want to go that far with a preliminary design idea. I very strongly believe that the shop areas should be tool areas and never meeting areas. I think we should all put aside any idea that we should wheel the table saw away to make room for an event.

I'm largely ambivalent about the upstairs rooms. They can move around relatively easy. Personally, I don't see a point in a sound room and don't like the idea of selling co-working space to non-members, but I know other people are interested. I'd actually like the co-working/programming room to be a Room of Large Tables where people could spread out and work on clean projects (including programming) without fear of shop dust or oil. But again, all those rooms can be whatever we all decide is useful and can be easily moved around before a plan is finalized.

- Scott

[Danny Miller]

It could bring in a lot of revenue- which we will always need.

What I mentioned in the meeting is a potentially difficult situation
where someone may rent out the soundroom and then has every right to
tell all the people outside to shut off equipment and be quiet. But
this would mean the Space might not be open for normal
business-as-you-see-fit. Normally you could find a few hours of your
time at some time of day and run up to the HS to work on something and
expect to be able to run a router, vac system, the A/C system, etc any
time. This might mean you'd come up and be told you can't do what you'd
planned on working on because someone else has reserved it. And they're
not monopolizing it, it's a right they paid for if they reserved the
sound room.

But it COULD be a cash cow, and we do need income.

Danny

[Shadow]

I don't see the point in building in a recording space unless it can be done right.  I'm estimating from Scott's plans that there's a 6x10 room and a 7x10 room, minus the wall thickness (No scale so I'm basing on square footage alone).

The walls for any type of recording space will need to be pretty thick to isolate the noise of inside the room from the outside and vice versa.  You are actually building a room inside a room with the inner wall separated from the outer wall with vibration dampening material like MLV (Mass Loaded Vinyl) and typical construction of walls use sheetrock in combination with MDF and/or Owens Corning 703 Fiberglass (the denser the material the better).

I'm not saying it's a bad idea or it shouldn't be done but not sure if proper consideration has been given to this for the preliminary design. The initial design fared better with the exception that the recording space shared a wall with the tool area where very loud tools are sure to be in use pretty frequently.

If a recording space is to be part of the plan, I suggest it be placed at the back and share a wall with a non-critical room that won't be frequented by people, like the storage area.  In fact, it wouldn't be such a bad idea to isolate the recording area from the rest of the space by the storage area, if possible.

[EBo]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:40:47 -0800 (PST), Shadow wrote:
>
> ...

>
> If a recording space is to be part of the plan, I suggest it be
> placed at
> the back and share a wall with a non-critical room that won't be
> frequented
> by people, like the storage area. In fact, it wouldn't be such a bad
> idea
> to isolate the recording area from the rest of the space by the
> storage
> area, if possible.

Sorry, but I can just see it now...

ATX Board Member to potential client: "please step right this way to
view the recording studio. Just follow me through this door..."

Recording Artist: "what? But that's a wardrobe?!?! Wait. You are
asking me to follow you THROUGH a WARDROBE? Is this like Alice in
Wonderland?"

ATX Board Member: "Something like that. We use the various low usage
storage areas to help dampen out the sounds of the rest of the space."

Recording Artist: "Ummm... that weird. This is a featureless all white
room. What gives?"

ATX Board Member: "Oh this is our photoshoot room. It is featureless
to control the lighting precisely." Walks to the opposite wall and
claps. A door pops open up into a small cramped recording booth with
two adjoining rooms separated with big Plexiglas doors/windows.

Recording Artis: "hhhmmm.. I should have expected it. The door
thing... Oh.. now This is Much More Like IT."

...

[Steve Baker]

To do it right, you also need an isolated slab floor so that vibrations
don't come in from that direction. Another consideration is that people
who use these spaces often make a lot of noise - so sound insulation is as
much to protect the people outside from some ungodly racket as it is to
improve the audio cleanliness inside the room.

When I worked for Midway games, we had a sound studio and it was a major
deal to get it set up so that sounds didn't intrude in either direction.

I don't think we should do this. It's too specialized and too expensive
to set up right.

-- Steve

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[Paul Bonser]

Sheesh people, we're a Hackerspace. We're a group of people who are
known for doing things in ways that people may consider to be "not
right".

What does it hurt if we do it and don't do it "right"? You don't need
a professional studio to record a podcast or a little bit of amateur
audio. We don't have to be renting out studio time to non members.

What are you all so afraid of that you're so quick to shoot down the
idea of having a recording studio in the space? We're not talking
about allocating space funds to outfit *any* of the rooms we have in
the designs, just to build the walls for the rooms. The equipment and
furniture will be added in an on-demand fashion, or provided by people
who are interested in getting those rooms up and running for their
intended purpose.

So: price of outfitting a room is not something you can use as an
argument against doing something, and neither is "we can't do it
'right' in the hackerspace". If you're going to argue against
something, come up with one that makes sense with those constraints in
mind. Oh, also "I don't have any interest in that particular thing" is
*also* not a valid argument. Everything included in the design has
been requested by members (or people who will become members if we add
it), so keep that in mind.

--
Paul Bonser | http://probablyprogramming.com | @pib

[Andy Howell]

Hello,

I just joined the Hackerspace last night. Hope it not too soon to put in my two cents. I
have ziltch musical talent. However, I like the idea of a studio, even a sub-optimal one.
It could have uses outside of recording. A quiet place to isolate the source of an
unwanted sound your latest gizmo. Experimenting with acoustics. Is my latest quadrocopter
really quieter than the last version? Pricing the build-out makes sense to me.

Regards,

Andy

[HanniGarbs]

Could we get room dimensions on the next iteration of the plan?

I know to me, for a sewing/crafts room to be truly useful, I need a
nice big table to cut fabric on. (That's the biggest thing that's
preventing me from bringing sewing projects to the space now - no
place to lay out patterns/cut fabric, etc.) Ideally, the table would
be at least 70" wide (most of the fabric I work with is 60" fabric)
and at least a 70" by 70" square, if not longer.

I know a large table like this would be useful for other types of
crafting as well - having a place to lay out everything you're working
with can be so important for everything from model painting to
leatherwork to scrapbooking to jewelry making, etc. Ideally, we'd be
able to sit or stand on all sides of the table - which would make this
a great room for small classes or group projects as well.

I'd think a minimum room size for a good crafting room would be at
least 10 x 12 if not 12 x 12. That's a 6' square table in the middle,
with 3' of space around it for chairs/etc. Then a 2' desk allowance
along one wall for sewing machines/etc.

Michelle, Mandie, et al - chime in, please! I'm thinking primarily
from a sewing perspective and trying to just think about room size
(equipping it is for another day).

[Paul Bonser]

It's never too soon to put your 2 cents in :D

I would just like to re-emphasize that all we are talking about here
is building walls. Nothing past that. No furniture, shelves, sound
insulation, etc, etc.

In case peoples' concerns are that we are spending money on an
imperfect recording studio or what not: no, we are just talking about
spending money on a room, which we will then, later, and possibly
without asking the space for more money, outfit with the equipment we
(the interested parties) need to use the room for our purposes.

--

[Scott Saunders]

I absolutely agree that "I don't have any interest" isn't a valid argument. That's why I added the requested rooms even though I'm not interested. :)

I don't want the plan discussion to get bogged down in the usefulness of one or two rooms that comprise 5% of the floorspace. (I made that number up, please don't correct me.) I'd love some feedback on the downstairs layout first. I think those rooms aren't very controversial and hopefully we can come to some sort of agreement about those.

The stair location is more important downstairs, I think. If we move that, the upstairs may have to change dramatically to reshape the hallway(s) and so forth. That's no problem, but I'd like to nail down the downstairs as much as possible before fiddling with the upstairs.

As far as the upstairs rooms go, we could build them as plain rooms first and then build out sound room and darkroom features as need/budget/interest/volunteers demand. We could start without the sound room middle wall and have just a single unfinished room until the sound room committee finished the build. We might even save some up-front money that way.

I think it's important to be able to gauge the membership's interest in various feature rooms. It may be that the sound room is very interesting to five or six very vocal people (the numbers aren't important - the "vocal" pun is important). But maybe twenty quiet folks are interested in a room for painting or a spray booth or tapestries or a dedicated robot maze room. Maybe a bunch of people are more interested in a "pretty quiet" room than a full on sound stage. I have no idea - the point is we should try to get some real data about interest.

So, my suggestion is: Let's nail down the downstairs. What do you think of the big room with the movable wall? The stair location? The Hall of Storage?

Then let's see if we can figure out a way for the membership to propose and express interest in various room types.

- Scott

[Rudye McGlothlin]

Scott,

Since you're asking about the downstairs, a dedicated 'finishing' space would be useful.  This would be used for painting or staining and needs to be kept separate to avoid getting junk in the finish.  It also has to be a space where things can be left undisturbed for days.  

Maybe the classroom could be moved upstairs and combined with the co-working area since they would both be very intermittent use areas.

Rudye

[Scott Saunders]

I'll add dimensions to more rooms next time I post a plan. I kind of thought the grid would print to the PDF but no luck there.

The current craft room is roughly 11 x 14 ft.

The finishing area is a good idea. Those generally don't need to be much bigger than the piece being finished plus some walk-around room, right? I've seen them implemented with a collapsable 'tent' structure that can be set up in any large area (like the shop's center project space). Then when dry, it can be collapsed and stored until the next time it's needed. That assumes that painting and staining are infrequent tasks. We should get some input on that I guess. It's tough trying to guess what people are interested in. I keep finding myself thinking "no one does that now" and then "well, you couldn't possibly do that in the current space, but maybe lots of people would".

- Scott

[MElbert]

I like the idea of the stairs, some doors and hallways being made wide enough so a team of people can get the laser cutter up to the second floor.  I think it should be that way even if we also do what I'm about to suggest.

There is talk of a balcony from the 2nd floor to the shop to provide a 2nd egress from the 2nd floor to the 1st in an emergency. (Some people are pushing for a Ghostbuster'esque fire pole, I kinda want a slide but zip lines are also cool.)  For safety, balconies generally have a... I'm at a loss for what to call it at the moment, hand rail? Low fence that goes around the outside to keep people from walking off the edge?  I'm going to call it "the thingy" so we can get on with this.

So my suggestion is to make one side of the thingy a gate.  That way, when we move in, we can rent a scissor lift or something like it.  Put the laser or other stuff we'd rather not carry up stairs on the lift, lift it to the balcony level and vie-ola!  There will still be some pushing the laser up a ramp or something to get it onto the lift but it wouldn't be as far to go.  People with experience moving the laser around can speak to whether the expense of renting a lift is worth it.

My second point in making one side of the thingy a gate is that eventually we might be able to figure out how to make the second floor wheel chair accessible with it.

On the subject of the sound booth.  It's okay if something isn't done "right", but it should at the very least be done well.  Part of the problem of the booth sharing a wall with the tool area can be fixed by flipping the thing around.  That is, the control room trading places with the booth.  The problem there, if I remember the layout correctly, is that you no longer have the bend in the hall acting as a bit of a baffle for any noise coming down said hall.  So I'm not sure how good a trade off that is

- Michelle

[Mandie Kramer]

Andy, it's never too soon to speak your mind here. We members are only a third of the people on this public list, and they all speak their mind frequently!

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Andy Howell <an...@gamubaru.com> wrote:

[Mandie Kramer]

As for the table, we could always use the conference room's table. :) We're still going to be limited (though much less than before) on space if we're to fit in all the make-ability we want. We have to think "multiple-use" for many rooms. Maybe the best thing would be a cutting platform and saw horses, to collapse when we don't need it?

[Mandie Kramer]

If I recall there was a survey done to gauge interest. Matt-cuso, could you please speak up on that?

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Scott Saunders <m...@bertucciinc.com> wrote:

[Mandie Kramer]

The art room is generally clean and expected to smell of turpentine or what-not. Would that also make for a good finishing room, in the multi-purpose vein of thought?

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Rudye McGlothlin <rudye.mc...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Scott Saunders]

I don't really have an "art" room on the current plan. I have a pottery and plaster room downstairs for the kiln, pottery wheel and a sink. My thinking is that the room would be a "dirty" room for water-based fun: clay and plaster projects. So probably not a good place for staining wood.

Again, if there's interest in a room for painting and drawing or that sort of thing, it can be added. Just need to gauge interest.

I'm thinking more and more that the upstairs programming/co-working room should just be a big "clean" project room full of big tables. That would be a good place for programming, assembling makerbots and laser-cut boxes, drawing, and crafting projects that don't need the big sewing machine. Partially that's based on my opinion that selling cowering space is a bad idea. I'm trying not to let my opinions unduly influence me in my pseudo-architect role.

- Scott

[Mandie Kramer]

That's my primary reason for memebership, a place to paint!  A multi-purpose art room for clay works and other arts would be of interest to me at least. That's a pseudo-dirty room, but also quite fine for someone doing finishing work. Clay doesn't tend to fly all over the place unless you're doing it wrong. The sewing and other crafts room would need to be a cleaner space, and probably could be shared with clean electronics? Call it a fabrication room, maybe?

[Brandon Wiley]

My main disagreement with the proposed plans for the new space are the addition of spaces designed primarily to be used by non-members as sources of revenue generation. We should stick to our core competency, business model, and mission, which is to provide value for the members and to raise revenue to be attracting new members and investment from our existing members.

I mention this because I think it impacts some of the design decisions. For instance, in the case of the sound studio, we don't need a professional studio that we could rent out, but rather one that is appropriate for sound hacking. Since I mainly work on experimental musical instruments it would be nice to have some place to go where I could make noise without bothering everyone and where I could connect to some audio equipment not also in use as the shop radio. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, just a space for doing this kind of work.

Similarly with the coworking space, I could use a place with some allocated desk space not covered in tools where I could put my laptop and do some programming. And where all the chairs are at compatible height to the desks. It would also be amazing to have a fax machine, scanner, and printer arranged in some way where I could figure out how to use them. So again nothing fancy, just some space for doing this sort of work.

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[Brandon Wiley]

I love the idea of a big table and I'd like to propose this for the electronics space as well. The current designs have the tables around the outside. I prefer to work around a big table with others rather than in my own space in the corner. Similarly for the classroom space when I teach classes I prefer the large round table approach rather than the individual desks approach so that people can help each other. If we go with the classroom/conference flex space then that could work as well. Some space I've been in have individual tables that can be assmebled together into one big table. However, for the electronics space I would personally prefer to just have one big table.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:43 AM, HanniGarbs <milli...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Scott Saunders]

I agree with this 100%.

There are a lot of ways the space could earn money. We could rent the space out for wedding receptions or start a day care business. I think the space should earn the money it needs by selling memberships (or co-op ownerships or what have you) and serving its members.

[Scott Saunders]

Just to be clear (perhaps overly clear), my plan doesn't include any furniture other than the storage shelves, just rooms.

[Mandie Kramer]

Oh damn. Are you sure we can't have in-house daycare? :)

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[Paul Bonser]

Don't forget about the possibility that the coworking space could be
exclusively for members. We have members who work from home, or at
least telecommute, and I would imagine paying a little extra for a
dedicated workspace is something members would be interested in. I
definitely would be interested in such a thing if/when I move on from
my current job to another telecommuting job, or if I want to branch
out and start my own company.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Scott Saunders <m...@bertucciinc.com> wrote:

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[Scott Saunders]

Absolutely. I think we could call that "quiet and clean" workspace and create a room for that with the printer and fax machine and so on. That's a different requirement than a co-working space that would be available to non-members or need to be reserved and paid-extra-for by members. Maybe the "extra" you would pay is already included in regular member fee of $55?

Similarly (or not at all), if day care would serve the membership, that's different to me than selling the service to non-members. Also, if the membership expresses sufficient interest in a ball-room or bouncy-castle, we can add that to the plans.

- Scott

[Tim Fredlund]

Is it ridiculous to suggest a bouncy castle... without the daycare? :P

[Scott Saunders]

On Feb 1, 2012, at 10:58 AM, Tim Fredlund wrote:
> Is it ridiculous to suggest a bouncy castle... without the daycare? :P

Yes. Yes, I think it is ridiculous.
:)

[Scott Saunders]

I should clarify… that's what I was suggesting. :)

Bouncy, Bouncy, Bouncy!!

damn. I should probably get back to work...

[Steve Baker]

The main thing to be said for tables-around-the-edge is that you don't get
power cords dangling dangerously across the walkways around the table. We
could fix that by putting power outlets into the floor or the table itself
and deliberately NOT provide many outlets on the walls. The good thing
about table-in-the-middle is that you can stick shelving around the walls
and get more storage.

-- Steve

-- Steve

[MElbert]

No.  It is not.

[MElbert]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgL0E2BFEM

That is all.

[Mandie Kramer]

Dood, has anyone tried one of the new fads around town like Jumpoline? ROOM FULL OF TRAMPOLINE!

[Mandie Kramer]

[HanniGarbs]

Ridiculously AWESOME!

[Brandon Wiley]

Yes, exactly! I would like us to have a big table with built in power. This would be superior to the system we have now of chaining power strips, both more convenient and less dangerous.

[Paul Bonser]

Depending on how many stations we want to have, a single big table may
not work. I do like the big table idea, though, so perhaps a couple of
big tables. Or however many we can fit.

--

[EBo]

maybe, but we should at least keep a room full of brightly colored
balls to jump into from high above (maybe from the second floor ;-)

[Mandie Kramer]

That's it! That's our second escape route! Blow-up castle filled with balls, with a roof open to the balcony above.

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[EBo]

I see it now... Timmy! You cannot play with the trebuche without
ADULT supervision, and the board told me that I am no longer to be
considered an adult! Here, give me that thing. This is how you load it
with jellow pudding -- it makes a good splat at the end. Oh! Give me
the raspberry one, I will CRUSH the little weeble wobbles and watch them
bleed...

Oh so wrong in so many ways...

[EBo]

Quick, lets write an an application to the fire Marchall!

I love you Mandie ;-)

[EBo]

just a couple of cents from growing up in a pottery studio...

Mandie right that you should not get clay all over the place unless you
are doing something wrong, or the webble wobbles decide to have a fight.
On the other hand accidents do happen. It is good to have this in a
room with concrete, linoleum, or other floors which are flat. You would
not believe how nice it is to work in a studio that has a concrete
floor, and tiled walls -- you just spray everything down with a hose to
clean. Carpeting is right out! I would have to think about whether
collocation with an electronics room would be good, but precision
machinery is right out! Clay and glazes (which are essentially ground
glass in a flux) are extremely abrasive and will tare them up. From my
experience there can be a serious issue with dust, and that should be
planned for. It is fine to have other crafty things in the same space
(like wood working, and welding), but you should keep oily projects well
away aw that will completely mess up the clay, the paints, the glazes...
To bad I am still not in Austin - I have a small skutt kiln that does
not get used for much...

Well, thems my 2c.

[Steve Baker]

Sounds like that we might claim that to be a fire-exit? :-)

EBo wrote:

> maybe, but we should at least keep a room full of brightly colored
> balls to jump into from high above (maybe from the second floor ;-)

-- Steve

[Matt C.M.]

OK, a re-design to address several points, and to incorporate some of the ideas from others.

http://imgur.com/a/EvCPw/

This includes the split class/conference space on the 1st floor.  This move freed up a large space upstairs, which actually addresses another space, a dedicated area for sewing and clean art.  There's been a slight re-arrangement in the kitchen/lounge/(dirty)art and server rooms to accommodate the increase in size of the class/conference area.

To address the paid use by outside members, the features I've included are designed to be used by members.  There are those who think the specialty space could be used in a per-hour type scenario by non members, this would be something that would require a member vote.  Everything here is implemented for members and future members based on what people told me they wanted.  I'd rather see people who want to use our stuff become members than pay to use it.  The only area specifically dedicated to an additional cost is the co-working space.  This is a unique situation, as it is a private space in an otherwise public building.  The idea here is to provide, for those who want/need it, an area through which they can run a business, E-commute for work, or other semi-private interest, while keeping them a part of our hackerspace community.  As such (also because we don't have the space to provide a desk for EVERY member) this is a pay-for-use, added value item.  This is a model which the hackerspace used in its first space, and it worked well.  It is a feature, that because of our current space limitations we were not able to offer.  Now that we have room, it would be nice to have this, both as a benefit for members, and a good source of income for the space.  This could, depending on cost per unit, cover a substantial portion of our operating cost, while still being the cheapest co-working space in the area for members.

[Andrew Harris]

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Matt C.M. <mcma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, a re-design to address several points, and to incorporate some of the
> ideas from others.
> http://imgur.com/a/EvCPw/
>

Matt's given me the files, which I have uploaded here:

http://supertunaman.com/atx_newspace/

The two files are ~20M each and are on my personal site hosted in
France. Let me know if there any issues with the downloads.

[Martin Bogomolni]

I've added sh3d to the allowed extensions on the wiki, if you want to
upload the file to it.

-M

[EBo]

WoW! I'm sure there will be some sure there is more juggling to do,
but this is cool.

For a couple of safety concerns. There are fire safety regulations
that someone should look into and address. I know that in residential
building there must be at least two emergency egresses for each room,
but I am not sure what the rule is for businesses. Some of the rooms
(like the darkroom and sound studio, may need extra doors out of (at
least for emergency access). There is also concerns about ventilation
for some of the rooms like the darkroom, laser, and server room. Also,
there may be an issue with disability access. Are there any
requirements for wheelchair access? I know that the old space was
accessible for all by the laser room.

[Martin Bogomolni]

Those kinds of details are best left to the professionals. We'll
consult with an architect before all this is done.

-M

[EBo]

ok. sorry if I was being a killjoy...

[Tim Fredlund]

Ebo,

Not at all. Matt and I are actually addressing many of the issues discussed right now.

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[EBo]

Tim,

My intent was to point out a potential got you that would end up
costing a bunch of time for a professional architect to go through. The
closer you can get it done by committee before hand, the less there will
be "why did you remove XYZ -- that is what I really cared about..."

Best of luck with this. It looks totally cool!

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[Paisley Timm]

Having a large table to laying out patterns and such is a life, and
back, saver. I hardly sew in my apartment because i'm either trying to
pin to half an inch of carpet or my poor bed, neither of which make
good for laying stuff out or working on.
My only suggestion there is a cork-topped table- you can pin TO the
table and it's just generally really nice. College has spoiled me,
perhaps. In the vein of making that table more useful to others in
crafts, a nice piece of masonite could turn the sewing-specific table
into just a table. :)

I'm going to start playing around with the layout, though is the
sewing/crafts area also supposed to incorporate painting and such? The
idea of a sewing and more or less so painting room makes me kind of
queasy- there are lots of ways for that to go horrifically wrong for
both seamstress and painter and the mechanics involved.

[David Mitchell]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 2:44 AM, Paisley Timm <Para...@timpowered.com> wrote:
>... is the

> sewing/crafts area also supposed to incorporate painting and such?

I like the idea of separate "clean art" (sewing, weaving, etc) and
"dirty art" (pottery, painting) areas.

[Martin Bogomolni]

Please don't forget the needs of the hackerspace proper .. we need a
small business office for the actual operation of ATX itself, to keep
our business records and such stored in and private files/papers
safely stored. Somewhere with a desk, to have meetings as well as
to tend to the day-to-day stuff. It's not _all_ making and fun,
after all.

-Martin

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[EBo]

you have to be careful combining such areas. Unless it is dealt with
appropriately, pottery will create dust which can get into
paints/painting (I'm assuming slow drying paints like oils here, as
opposed to spray painting). If you are going to mix painting with
pottery you will need to make sure that the area is appropriately
ventilated (ie air filters).

So, please define what you consider a clean or dirty art. I'll suggest
blacksmithing as a dirty art. Particularly if I use coal or charcoal
;-)

EBo --

[Paul Bonser]

We could dedicate a cube in the coworking area for this purpose. Or
even wall off a slightly-larger-than-a-cube area in one corner of the
coworking area, so there's a lockable door.

--

[Mandie Kramer]

Fine art painting can be done without flinging paint around. As for finishing work and pottery, I think that's why the arts room was separated into the one downstairs and the one upstairs. If you're going to be clean, go upstairs. Dirty? Keep it downstairs.

[Rudye McGlothlin]

Personally, I don't see the co-working space as member oriented at all.  Others have said the same, but it still gets carried over in new designs like it has some sacred cow status.  What's driving that?

I think, if someone said that they would like to put an exclusive piece of equipment in the shop, something that they use for their business and wouldn't be available for member use, we would reject that outright.  What's the difference?

Rudye

[EBo]

also, do not forget to have an exhaust vent for the kiln. Depending on
what people are firing the outgassing can be noxious and or toxic. Much
of that can be limited by specifying what can/cannot be fired in the
kiln (like raw beryllium glazes -- I would not worry as much about
fritted glazes).

[Paul Bonser]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Rudye McGlothlin
<rudye.mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally, I don't see the co-working space as member oriented at all.
>  Others have said the same, but it still gets carried over in new designs
> like it has some sacred cow status.  What's driving that?

Not having a coworking space keeps me from considering it a viable
option to do real work from the space. If you're in the space for 8
hours a day, taking up a shared area, that might be considered to be
an unfair usage. If you're paying extra and have a space which is
reserved for you, then that seems fair to me.

Perhaps there's not enough interest, but I personally would use a
coworking space (pending future job-related changes, but still...).

Still, we're not going to get anywhere by just saying "I don't want
it, so we shouldn't have it" or "I want it, so we *should* have it".
What we need is some way of gauging how interested people are or would
be, and if enough people are interested, then we should go for it.

One final thought, though: why are people so opposed to something that
would bring extra money to the space? I could understand if it was
taking away our capability to do something else we want to do, but so
far I haven't heard any suggestions for something else to take up the
rest of that space if we didn't have the coworking space.

>
> I think, if someone said that they would like to put an exclusive piece of
> equipment in the shop, something that they use for their business and
> wouldn't be available for member use, we would reject that outright.  What's
> the difference?

If they wanted to pay an extra 100 dollars a month and it didn't
prevent others from being able to do what they want to do in the
space? I wouldn't have an issue with that.

>
> Rudye
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:34 AM, David Mitchell <goss...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 2:44 AM, Paisley Timm <Para...@timpowered.com>
>> wrote:
>> >... is the
>> > sewing/crafts area also supposed to incorporate painting and such?
>>
>> I like the idea of separate "clean art" (sewing, weaving, etc) and
>> "dirty art" (pottery, painting) areas.
>>

--

[Scott Saunders]

Speaking for myself…

I think the space should make money by selling memberships - flat, all-you-can-eat memberships. All members at one level, without any special privileges for extra money.

That's the point of the space, in my mind, as a community, resource, and business. I think we should stick to that core purpose even though there are a lot of ways to make money with a big building.

Partly this is just my philosophical position on how the community should be structured. However there's also the very practical concern of how we would make it happen. We have a hard enough time getting the space clean for major events and making access cards for new members. I don't see any infrastructure that would allow us to sell, track, and enforce special privileges without pain and confusion. Especially if the co-working space was rented to non-members. That seems like a logistical nightmare unless we have actual staff, and there's been no talk of budgeting for a staff this year.

I also don't think it would be a problem for a member to be in the space working for ten hours every day. So if you want to work in a programming room or the lounge or some other clean spot, that's fine with me. I think it's great. I don't think it's at all unfair usage. Largely because it's actually usage - I'd rather you were there working and building community than that spot be taken up by old treadmills, engines or segways. :)

Mainly, I agree 100% that we should gauge interest more formally. Mandie asked yesterday about a previous survey? Anyone know anything about that?

- Scott

[Paul Bonser]

If the general consensus is the same, then what should we do with the
space currently labeled "coworking space"?

My first thought would be a computer lab, library (quiet area!), or
something along those lines. Or, we could just make the rest of the
rooms a little bigger. OR a giant ball-pit room. I'd be fine with any
of those choices, in that case.

In all seriousness, some sort of more-isolated quiet-ish working area
would be good for those members who do want to get some real work done
at the space.

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[Mandie Kramer]

I really like the idea of a space some of us can pay extra money on top of the membership dues to use and not have to put away all our crap afterward. My understanding is that many members have asked for something like this. An office space they can rent out. I don't know the exact numbers, but we can vote on it before we build. I'm sure each room that gets finalized will have adequate votes backing it.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Rudye McGlothlin <rudye.mc...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Tim Fredlund]

<slightlyOT>

Scott, I just want to say thanks for all the input you've provided on this subject. Its been very useful in trying to gauge exactly how and what we plan and propose to the membership. Your points and opinions are ordered and with supplementary reasons instead of just "argh no god! why!," which is something I get plenty of from work. Its been very useful in understanding some of the possible motivations of others trying to voice.

</slightlyOT>

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Scott Saunders <sc...@spongocoel.com> wrote:

[Mandie Kramer]

Despite previous data, let's make a wiki page and list all the rooms we can think of that might be useful to us. As people add their ideas, we can add "1" next to the rooms we are interested in. For any that we think would be detrimental to the future of the hackerspace, put a "-1". What accumulates a fair amount of interest will be a good guide for the plan.

I'll start it. Give me a few minutes.

[Mandie Kramer]

Agreed!

[Paul Bonser]

We could also use the newly-minted forums for the discussion of
specific rooms (one thread per room?), so we don't overpower people
who don't care on the mailing list?

[Mandie Kramer]

Oh! And I found the survey that Jeff had done while he was MAL. It's locked down to protect personal responses, but maybe he could pipe up and give us the public results when he gets a chance, if no one else knows where those are. I'll poke around on the wiki too.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Mandie Kramer <mandie...@gmail.com> wrote:

[MElbert]

Or just put down tape like Les Nesman...

[Mandie Kramer]

True. Has anyone found a solution for throwing those back into email if preferred?

[Tim Fredlund]

Please don't forget the needs of the hackerspace proper .. we need a
small business office for the actual operation of ATX itself, to keep
our business records and such stored in and private files/papers
safely stored.    Somewhere with a desk, to have meetings as well as
to tend to the day-to-day stuff.   It's not _all_ making and fun,
after all. 

Wait, what? Other than maybe a safe, this is the first I've heard of this. Meetings can be had in the conference room, documents in a cabinet, and sensitive/important documents in a safe. I wholly disagree that there needs to be dedicated management area.

[Paul Bonser]

You can subscribe to specific threads, but there's not way (I don't
think) to allow people to reply via email as well.

[Paul Bonser]

Maybe one of these:
http://www.containerstore.com/shop/elfa/bestSellingSolutions/officeSpaces?utm_medium=feed&productId=10020052&utm_source=google_products&sku=10042914

:P

[Martin Bogomolni]

Yes. I've activated "email me" to threads on the Forum. If a person
is interested in a particular forum topic or thread, they can now
subscribe their forum account/email and see the thread. In THEORY I
can subscribe the austin-hackerspace email list to the forum, but I
think that would be a bad idea (it would increase traffic here
stupidly high) ...

-M

[Martin Bogomolni]

>> Wait, what? Other than maybe a safe, this is the first I've heard of this.
>> Meetings can be had in the conference room, documents in a cabinet, and
>> sensitive/important documents in a safe. I wholly disagree that there needs
>> to be dedicated management area.

--I'm-- requesting this :) The reason you're hearing it for the first
time, is that I'm Participating in the Process, and stating the need
for a business office for ATX Hackerspace.

-M

> Maybe one of these:
> http://www.containerstore.com/shop/elfa/bestSellingSolutions/officeSpaces?utm_medium=feed&productId=10020052&utm_source=google_products&sku=10042914
>
> :P
>
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul Bonser | http://probablyprogramming.com | @pib
>

[Jerry Rutherford]

Yeah... that would be insane.

I can barely keep up with it now.
(I'm on about 5 mailing lists... 200 emails a day is not uncommon.)

Askjerry... everyone else does.
Visit me online at http://askjerry.info
See my projects, video links, tutorials, and blog today.

[MElbert]

I'm not against messageboards per sae, but I'm not entirely thrilled of yet another thing I'm going to have to keep checking through the day just to keep up with a topic that is important to me but I might not be aware of.  People title their email threads, it comes top my inbox and I make a judgement whether to move it into my "read later" pile or read it as it comes in or ignore it.

With a message board I have to take the time to go to the boards and go through everything to see if something is relevant to what's going on.

The google group also acts as a message board, it keeps a searchable record of everything discussed in one place.  People can get a digest or posts as they come in or turn off alerts and go check the group like a message board.

I'm sorry, but I think this is a bad idea and will only lead to confusion.

[Mandie Kramer]

Here's a link to the document I created. I'll also find a home for it at the wiki.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Av2HO4DjXFwodG5oQmFlMldQRWZ4dHU4Nmwwa1pnelE

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Mandie Kramer <mandie...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Martin Bogomolni]

Yep, but Google isn't taking care of the lists anymore. Something is
up in Google Land...

*) Digests stopped working 2 weeks ago
*) The new UI was launched Nov last year .. but the site is still
split between old and new UI, and the tools are broken
*) Search and indexing of the group is somewhat broken. New posts
don't always index into the search, sometimes for days

I can't get any response from Google, not even from friends I have
internally, about Google Groups. Also, some things just work out
better in a Forum.

I like having the choice :)

-M

[Steve Baker]

It might not be so terrible to have some "unassigned space" that we can
choose to use for some unforeseen future need. As we've seen, new tools,
new projects, new ideas pop up all the time. If every square inch of the
space is occupied from day one - where is the room to add those things
later?

As for the philosophical question of whether we should be planning to
sub-let space for "coworking" - we should ask:

1) Is this a case where we have genuinely unused, left-over space which
might as well be earning money for us as standing idle? (Implying that we
should allow this - but always be prepared to reclaim that space for other
needs whenever such things pop up - regardless of the needs/desires of our
renters.)

2) Is this a case where we need to make some money from this kind of
service in order to have the group provide best possible services for our
members. (Which would imply that we are compelled to reserve space for
it.)

3) Is this in fact a 'bonus' service for members that benefits enough of
us to warrant the cost to the rest of us? (much as a pottery kiln benefits
potters - at some cost to those of us who have no intention of doing that)

I'd also be concerned about issues like Internet bandwidth. We know this
is a bad problem - but what happens if we're offering free Internet access
to these co-workers and one of them hits our bandwidth so hard that we get
capped again - or merely makes everything run so slowly that we can't do
what we need to do in the space? What about the amount of electricity
they might consume?

-- Steve

-- Steve

[MElbert]

Choice is not a bad thing, but we're already having problems with people not getting important information. 

Also, I don't understand.  The problem is that Google Groups isn't doing certain things it should be doing for a number of people (which is bad), but a message board doesn't do those things either really.  So people who are not getting their alerts from Google Groups now have to go check the group as if it was a message board AND the message boards if they want to keep up with topics that are ongoing or may come up in either place.

[Scott Saunders]

I absolutely agree. I was calling it "programming/co-working space". A big room with big tables meant for clean, quiet work.

[Martin Bogomolni]

Oh .. and the forum supports polls as well .. you can put a poll at
the top of any thread, and the poll allows multiple choice :)

-M

[Amishacker]

Mandie, good idea.
I will work on a simple Google Form.
That will be safer, because wiki access will lock when one person is
editing (you gotta be fast!) and changes will clobber.

I agree with Paul that a co-working space is a great way to do real
work and put extra money into the hackerspace, and I think we can
reduce the 'outside force' objection by simply offering the spaces to
members only at first. I think it will fill up =]

I agree with Mandie that paying extra fees to get special offerings is
a good idea. We already have core members who are more active and
spending time at the space, and speaking as one of them I would dearly
love to throw in a little extra for a 1 meter cube 'booth', share it
with a few people, and at least have a place I can work and keep
clear.

Sorry to jump in on this so late. Form pending.

On Feb 2, 10:49 am, Paul Bonser <mister...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We could also use the newly-minted forums for the discussion of
> specific rooms (one thread per room?), so we don't overpower people
> who don't care on the mailing list?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Mandie Kramer <mandiekra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Despite previous data, let's make a wiki page and list all the rooms we can
> > think of that might be useful to us. As people add their ideas, we can add
> > "1" next to the rooms we are interested in. For any that we think would be
> > detrimental to the future of the hackerspace, put a "-1". What accumulates a
> > fair amount of interest will be a good guide for the plan.
>
> > I'll start it. Give me a few minutes.
>

[Matt C.M.]

There's a couple reasons I did not do a room-in-the-middle anywhere
but the conference room. By placing the table in the middle you need
to have a lot of surrounding space for chairs/travel, this space is
shared when the tables are on the outside, so its much more efficient
for space usage. The other major reason is that there will probably
be equipment, like o-scopes and power supplies on shelves above the
benches, this can't be left out on a table so it means more clean-
up(which we are notoriously bad at doing). The 3rd concern is a big
one, and one we currently face, power. Each person doing electronics
work really needs 3-4 outlets, that's massively unrealistic to do at a
table in the middle of the room.

On Feb 1, 10:45 am, Brandon Wiley <bran...@blanu.net> wrote:
> I love the idea of a big table and I'd like to propose this for the
> electronics space as well. The current designs have the tables around the
> outside. I prefer to work around a big table with others rather than in my
> own space in the corner. Similarly for the classroom space when I teach
> classes I prefer the large round table approach rather than the individual
> desks approach so that people can help each other. If we go with the
> classroom/conference flex space then that could work as well. Some space
> I've been in have individual tables that can be assmebled together into one
> big table. However, for the electronics space I would personally prefer to
> just have one big table.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:43 AM, HanniGarbs <millie.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Could we get room dimensions on the next iteration of the plan?
>
> > I know to me, for a sewing/crafts room to be truly useful, I need a
> > nice big table to cut fabric on.  (That's the biggest thing that's
> > preventing me from bringing sewing projects to the space now - no
> > place to lay out patterns/cut fabric, etc.)  Ideally, the table would
> > be at least 70" wide (most of the fabric I work with is 60" fabric)
> > and at least a 70" by 70" square, if not longer.
>
> > I know a large table like this would be useful for other types of
> > crafting as well - having a place to lay out everything you're working
> > with can be so important for everything from model painting to
> > leatherwork to scrapbooking to jewelry making, etc.  Ideally, we'd be
> > able to sit or stand on all sides of the table - which would make this
> > a great room for small classes or group projects as well.
>
> > I'd think a minimum room size for a good crafting room would be at
> > least 10 x 12 if not 12 x 12.  That's a 6' square table in the middle,
> > with 3' of space around it for chairs/etc.  Then a 2' desk allowance
> > along one wall for sewing machines/etc.
>
> > Michelle, Mandie, et al - chime in, please!  I'm thinking primarily
> > from a sewing perspective and trying to just think about room size
> > (equipping it is for another day).

[Matt C.M.]

The reason this could NOT be included in regular member fees is that
there's a limited quantity of space. It wouldn't be fair to the
membership of 100+ people to say "you get a desk in here as a member,
but sorry its already full" Its much more rational(and a previously
used system in our last space) to offer it to members who would like
to pay extra for dedicated space, especially because co-working space
is almost always associated with a job or other money-gaining venture.

On Feb 1, 10:56 am, Scott Saunders <m...@bertucciinc.com> wrote:
> Absolutely. I think we could call that "quiet and clean" workspace and create a room for that with the printer and fax machine and so on. That's a different requirement than a co-working space that would be available to non-members or need to be reserved and paid-extra-for by members. Maybe the "extra" you would pay is already included in regular member fee of $55?
>
> Similarly (or not at all), if day care would serve the membership, that's different to me than selling the service to non-members. Also, if the membership expresses sufficient interest in a ball-room or bouncy-castle, we can add that to the plans.
>
> - Scott
>
> On Feb 1, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Paul Bonser wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Don't forget about the possibility that the coworking space could be
> > exclusively for members. We have members who work from home, or at
> > least telecommute, and I would imagine paying a little extra for a
> > dedicated workspace is something members would be interested in. I
> > definitely would be interested in such a thing if/when I move on from
> > my current job to another telecommuting job, or if I want to branch
> > out and start my own company.

[Matt C.M.]

We can still put shelving on the walls with the tables there, look at
the upstairs in the current space, shelves like this will definitely
be an important part of our rooms in the new build.

On Feb 1, 11:01 am, "Steve Baker" <st...@sjbaker.org> wrote:
> The main thing to be said for tables-around-the-edge is that you don't get
> power cords dangling dangerously across the walkways around the table.  We
> could fix that by putting power outlets into the floor or the table itself
> and deliberately NOT provide many outlets on the walls.  The good thing
> about table-in-the-middle is that you can stick shelving around the walls
> and get more storage.
>
>   -- Steve

>  -- Steve

[Matt C.M.]

Actually I think this is a great potential use of 1 cube of space,
office area already set up.

On Feb 2, 9:50 am, Paul Bonser <mister...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We could dedicate a cube in the coworking area for this purpose. Or
> even wall off a slightly-larger-than-a-cube area in one corner of the
> coworking area, so there's a lockable door.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Martin Bogomolni <martinb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Please don't forget the needs of the hackerspace proper .. we need a
> > small business office for the actual operation of ATX itself, to keep
> > our business records and such stored in and private files/papers
> > safely stored.    Somewhere with a desk, to have meetings as well as
> > to tend to the day-to-day stuff.   It's not _all_ making and fun,
> > after all.
>

> > -Martin

>
> > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Paisley Timm <Paran...@timpowered.com> wrote:
> >> Having a large table to laying out patterns and such is a life, and
> >> back, saver. I hardly sew in my apartment because i'm either trying to
> >> pin to half an inch of carpet or my poor bed, neither of which make
> >> good for laying stuff out or working on.
> >> My only suggestion there is a cork-topped table- you can pin TO the
> >> table and it's just generally really nice. College has spoiled me,
> >> perhaps. In the vein of making that table more useful to others in
> >> crafts, a nice piece of masonite could turn the sewing-specific table
> >> into just a table. :)
>
> >> I'm going to start playing around with the layout, though is the
> >> sewing/crafts area also supposed to incorporate painting and such? The
> >> idea of a sewing and more or less so painting room makes me kind of
> >> queasy- there are lots of ways for that to go horrifically wrong for
> >> both seamstress and painter and the mechanics involved.
>

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[Amishacker]

It's true, we could do polls on the forum.
I would like to keep using Google Docs myself, so that I can learn
more about it and expand my capabilities.
But. If the forum polls work better, I'm all for it.

This poll is entirely for rough consensus
http://goo.gl/Yq7Ov

Since it is so small, I can have survey results quite quickly.

[Amishacker]

Mandie's spreadsheet looks to work. I wasn't able to keep up with
email. Feel free to use my form instead if you like, and apologies for
duplicate effort.

On Feb 2, 1:17 pm, Amishacker <marshallbvaug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's true, we could do polls on the forum.
> I would like to keep using Google Docs myself, so that I can learn
> more about it and expand my capabilities.
> But. If the forum polls work better, I'm all for it.
>

> This poll is entirely for rough consensushttp://goo.gl/Yq7Ov

[Matt C.M.]

The 'survey' was just me asking members what they'd like to see in the
future space. It wasn't anything official. Personally, I'd not
purchase an increased membership for a co-working space(I don't
currently do work that would need it) but I WOULD pay extra for
increased onsite storage as a value-added item. Something like a
pallet sized cart of storage would be worth an extra $25 a month
minimum to me. Things like this and the co-working space are a way to
keep things fair between members who need the space and those who
don't. Its not fair to allocate a limited resource like extra storage
or desk space in a first come first served manner. For those who want/
need extra room, we ask for a reasonable sum of money for the
additional space, we aren't asking the whole membership to cover what
is, in effect, a personal, money making venture for them. The basic
membership gives you access to all the amenities of the space, the
only a-la-carte is dedicated space. And this is potentially a great
way for the space to close up the income gap we may have for a while
until membership grows, then allow us greater power to do things both
inside the space and in the community.

[Mandie Kramer]

Marshall, your poll is much prettier than mine. Is there a way for people to add additional rooms/needs to it?