Did God creat everything

[clegmeister]

When I debate religion with some of my christian friends they always
try to convince me that God created everything.
so firstly I ask them did god creat everything, they answer yes
secondly I ask does god know everything including past/present/future,
they answer yes
thirdly I ask if god created everything then he must have created
GOOD, they answer yes
I then say if he created GOOD then he must have created EVIL, they
answer no?
they tell me that the devil created EVIL.
I say but didn't god creat the devil, they say no?
I then say I thought you said god created everything, this must
include GOOD/EVIL and the devil
this is when most christians start back peddling and denying that god
god would not creat anything that was bad.
isn't it amazing that when you point out the obvious to the theists
how much they refuse to believe it.
my understanding of religous people is that they have lazy brains and
are completely unable to think for themselves,they conveniently think
that all that is good was created by god and all that is evil was
created by the devil, and totally refuse to believe that god had to
have creaded the devil.

[Trance Gemini]

Very true. Their problem is that if they acknowledge that their god created the devil then they wouldn't have anyone to blame for the bad stuff they do ;-)

--
"Anti-theism at it's best means holding religion to the same standard as everything else." --Dev

[TLC]

Why not ask who created god?

On 26 June, 18:58, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> everything else." --Dev- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 2:13 PM, TLC <tlc.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why not ask who created god?

Well, of course, there's that too.

[clegmeister]

another point I'd like to make is that christians say they believe
every word in the bible, but when you ask them have they read all of
the evil things written in the old testiment such as.


"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the
city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy;
have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and
little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your
task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy
leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its
courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went
throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)"

Suddenly they say they don't believe this part of the bible.
isn't it amazing how they only cherry pick the nice parts of the bible
and completely ignore all of the horrific murderous parts of the old
testament.
also why don't preists mention these passages of the bible at church
on sundays? hmmmmmm
my main point is you either believe the whole of the bible, good parts
and bad, or you don't believe any of it, you can't have it both ways



On Jun 26, 7:35 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:48 PM, clegmeister <clegm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

another point I'd like to make is that christians say they believe
every word in the bible, but when you ask them have they read all of
the evil things written in the old testiment such as.


 "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the
city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy;
have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and
little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your
task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy
leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its
courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went
throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)"

Suddenly they say they don't believe this part of the bible.
isn't it amazing how they only cherry pick the nice parts of the bible
and completely ignore all of the horrific murderous parts of the old
testament.
also why don't preists mention these passages of the bible at church
on sundays? hmmmmmm
my main point is you either believe the whole of the bible, good parts
and bad, or you don't believe any of it, you can't have it both ways

The number and types of rationalizations for that one are numerous. Lol.

 

Limited only the creativity of the person being talked to :-)

[Timothy 1:4a]

There are religions that believe good and evil have different
creators. Like Zoroastrianism, which used to be huge in Persia but
was persecuted and nearly wiped out when the Muslims took over.
Currently has about 200,000 believers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

There is no reason to believe Zoroastrianism, but it has the cleanest
answer to the problem of evil. One good guy, one bad guy, so no
problem with contradictions in the natural world.

[Rolf Schuler]

2010/6/26 Trance Gemini <trance...@gmail.com>

Goodness! This part by Ezechiel sounds to me very much like that, what the Nazis did to the Jews.

Rolf

--

"Anti-theism at it's best means holding religion to the same standard as everything else." --Dev

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[Trance Gemini]

Well I guess they had to get their ideas from somewhere....

[thea]

This is why if you haven't learned to rightly divide the Word of Truth - you end up trying to apply to your

life what you don't need to apply.

Constantly remembering that the OT is the genealogy of Jesus and is History - means that you can

learn what works and doesn't work, what's wrong and what's right - but not necessarily to be applied

directly to your life.

In the NT it is the Dispensation of the Grace of God as St. Paul explains that is for us as Gentiles in

this day and age in which we live.

Oh the glorious facts given of life eternal with Jesus Christ in Heaven.

 

 

--
"Anti-theism at it's best means holding religion to the same standard as everything else." --Dev

--

[Tell it like it is.]

On Jun 26, 1:54 pm, clegmeister <clegmeis...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Tell it like it is.]

On Jun 27, 1:17 pm, "Tell it like it is."

> > have creaded the devil.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

and God said that it was good after each day of the
creation.
Satan created himself and evil.

[Tell it like it is.]

On Jun 27, 1:20 pm, "Tell it like it is."

> Satan created himself and evil.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

God created angels before he created mankind. Some of the angels
rebelled against their Creator. God created angels. Angels who
rebelled became devils. Satan is their God.

Religion: Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, serves God.
God created everything that is good.
Man created evil. God created the religious spirit in makind eg.,
Hinduism, Christianity, Islam etc.. Man creates secular ideologies
eg., Zionism, Communism, Naziism etc..

[clegmeister]

Tell it like it is

"God created angels before he created mankind. Some of the angels
rebelled against their Creator. God created angels. Angels who
rebelled became devils. Satan is their God"

God created everything, everything means EVERYTHING, you don't have to
be a brain surgeon to understand what that means.
I'm always amazed how theists refuse to believe what is written in
their own bible.

your god is supposed to know everything past/present and future, you
would think that a being with these abilities would be able to see
that the Angel Lucifer who he created. would turn against him and
become Satan.
so why create Lucifer in the beginning, he must have known what was
going to happen?, your god ain't too smart is he.

On Jun 27, 6:33 pm, "Tell it like it is."

> eg., Zionism, Communism, Naziism etc..- Hide quoted text -

[Rolf Schuler]

2010/6/27 thea <thea...@gmail.com>

Who can tell, if there is any truth in these "holy books? Much blather, but no substantial background at all. Do religious people really believe, that these ancient  texts did come through unchanged? People from the Middle East since ever had been famous story tellers (remember the 1001 Nights) - why not telling tales as a tool to convince gullibles? I feel inclined to accept this as the truth about all "holy books". Unless I get watertight evidence that I'm wrong.
Rolf

[thea]

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:54 PM, clegmeister <clegm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Tell it like it is

"God created angels before he created mankind. Some of the angels
rebelled against their Creator. God created angels. Angels who
rebelled became devils. Satan is their God"

God created everything, everything means EVERYTHING, you don't have to
be a brain surgeon to understand what that means.
I'm always amazed how theists refuse to believe what is written in
their own bible.

your god is supposed to know everything past/present and future, you
would think that a being with these abilities would be able to see
that the Angel Lucifer who he created. would turn against him and
become Satan.
so why create Lucifer in the beginning, he must have known what was
going to happen?, your god ain't too smart is he.

 

 

 

God created everything.

God created the angel that became Satan.

In fact in the Bible in Ezekiel 28 we see Satan described as the King of Tyre.

*The most beautiful creature created, perfect in wisdom, the anointed cherub that covereth,

he could walk on the stones of fire.  wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wasst created,

till iniquity was found in thee.* KJV

And, the earth would be in perfect working order if Adam and Eve hadn't given their

authority to rule over to Satan.

When Jesus was temped in the desert - Satan presented all the kingdoms and nations

of the world to HIM and said you can have all this if you will worship me(Satan).

And Jesus said no!!

So the nations of the world are not Christian or Godly at all - because Jesus didn't

accept them.

 

So, where are we - stuck someplace between heaven and hell.  To get to heaven all

we have to do is believe that *God raised Jesus from the dead*.  To go to

hell all we have to do is do nothing.

 

[thea]

the Bible says that to a Christian the Bible is the Power of God.  And to someone who is not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ - *it is to them that perish rubbish*.

Interesting isn't it.

However, as an ole lady I can say that this *know-so* salvation has been worth the years of pursuit.  Knowing for sure that I am a True Christian, that I have the *down-payment* of my future inheritance which is the Holy Spirit living in me.  It has been worth it all -- and it will be worth all the trials and

anguish of searching for The Truth - when I see Jesus!  One glimpse of His Dear Face, and all sorrow will erase - and so I will bravely run the race - just to see my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

 

There are two dimensions to living in the here and now -- the one we see and know because all we can do is see it (even though Philosophy 101 teaches us that we know nothing), and the dimension that we cannot see - but from where we get life, and all the good things that come our way because we ask the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ to supply our needs.  And HE does.  But, how do we receive what we need -- it is so easy -- *God lives in the Praises of His People.*  And so, as a Christian I am constantly thanking the God and Father of my Lord Jesus Christ for all His wonderful blessings - and taking care of me.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

> God said that it was good after each day of the creation.

> Satan created himself and evil.

Can another Satan create himself after this Satan is burned in the
Lake of Fire? If so, can God's kingdom to come be just as bad as this
world - infested with evil people guided by a new Satan?

[thea]

Wow!  you just hit on a question that I asked theologians across this country years ago.

And the question was this -- *if Satan got kicked out of heaven in the eons of time past,

how are we not going to get kicked out of heaven in the eons of time to come?*

Guess what?  I didn't get any good explanations from any of them -- and pastors couldn't

answer this question either -- told me that it was a frivolousl question??

 

So, I got on my knees and asked God to show me the Truth.  And, started reading

my Bible.  And in Ephesians 1 discovered that we cannot get kicked out of heaven

because we don't get to heaven because of who we are, what we are, where we've

been, or where we think we are going -- we get to heaven because of Who Jesus says

He IS! 

 

I don't put the blood around me - Jesus places His blood over me, so that when God

the Father looks at me I become *accepted in the Beloved!*

And this 6th verse of Ephesians is especially interesting when you are going through

commentary after commentary at the back of a book store and find that half the

commentaries comment on the first half of the verse which says, *To the praise of the glory

of his grace,* and don't comment at all on the second half.

And the other half of the commentaries say this verse is *obscure*.

It is the one verse in the Bible that explains that I do nothing to get to heaven except

believe that *God raised Jesus from the Dead* - and God is doing the rest for me

to make me acceptable to God the Father.

[Tell it like it is.]

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Yah, you're right. God created
everything, and that includes your free will. He ain't too bright. not
as smart as you. So he must've known what you would do with your fee
will. So blame God.

[Tell it like it is.]

On Jun 28, 7:24 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:54 PM, clegmeister <clegmeis...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Tell it like it is
> > "God created angels before he created mankind. Some of the angels
> > rebelled against their Creator. God created angels. Angels who
> > rebelled became devils. Satan is their God"
>
> > God created everything, everything means EVERYTHING, you don't have to
> > be a brain surgeon to understand what that means.
> > I'm always amazed how theists refuse to believe what is written in
> > their own bible.
>
> > your god is supposed to know everything past/present and future, you
> > would think that a being with these abilities would be able to see
> > that the Angel Lucifer who he created. would turn against him and
> > become Satan.
> > so why create Lucifer in the beginning, he must have known what was
> > going to happen?, your god ain't too smart is he.
>
> God created everything.
> God created the angel that became Satan.

Satan rejects his Creator. Thereby
creating evil. Since nothing can exist without God. If a child does
wrong are they right in accusing Mom and Dad for giving them birth? Of
course not. You would accuse God for your own actions as though you
lacked free will.

> In fact in the Bible in Ezekiel 28 we see Satan described as the King of
> Tyre.
> *The most beautiful creature created, perfect in wisdom, the anointed cherub
> that covereth,
> he could walk on the stones of fire.  wast perfect in thy ways from the day
> that thou wasst created,
> till iniquity was found in thee.* KJV
> And, the earth would be in perfect working order if Adam and Eve hadn't
> given their
> authority to rule over to Satan.
> When Jesus was temped in the desert - Satan presented all the kingdoms and
> nations
> of the world to HIM and said you can have all this if you will worship
> me(Satan).
> And Jesus said no!!
> So the nations of the world are not Christian or Godly at all - because
> Jesus didn't
> accept them.

You mean Satan rules the man-made world, the nations,
that man created.

> So, where are we - stuck someplace between heaven and hell.  To get to
> heaven all
> we have to do is believe that *God raised Jesus from the dead*.  To go to
> hell all we have to do is do nothing.

To get to hell you have to be ruled by Satan not by God. A
due respect for the Creator will get you to Heaven. Satan will drag
you down into Hell. Satan refuses to recognize God. Satan wants to be
God.

God did not create the devil. The devil created
himself when he rejected his Creator. God created the angels.
Devils reject the Creator, thereby introducing evil into
the created world. The entire world refers to those evil spirits that
reject God as malevolent spirits or demons.

> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > >                 and God said that it was good after each day of the
> > > > creation.

> > > > Satan created himself and evil by rejecting his Creator.- Hide quoted text -
> Man is give the same choice. "Choose ye this day who you will serve. As for me I will serve the Lord".

> > > > - Show quoted text -
>

> > > God created angels before he created man upon the earth. Some of the angels

> > > rebelled against their Creator. God created angels. Angels who
> > > rebelled became devils. Satan is their God.
>
> > > Religion: Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, serves God.
> > > God created everything that is good.
> > > Man created evil. God created the religious spirit in makind eg.,
> > > Hinduism, Christianity, Islam etc.. Man creates secular ideologies
> > > eg., Zionism, Communism, Naziism etc..- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at

> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> Satan rejected God.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jun 28, 8:22 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:03 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com < ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > God said that it was good after each day of the creation.
>
> > > Satan created himself and evil.
>
> > Can another Satan create himself after this Satan is burned in the
> > Lake of Fire? If so, can God's kingdom to come be just as bad as this
> > world - infested with evil people guided by a new Satan?
>
> Wow!  you just hit on a question that I asked theologians across this
> country years ago.
> And the question was this -- *if Satan got kicked out of heaven in the eons
> of time past,
> how are we not going to get kicked out of heaven in the eons of time to
> come?*
> Guess what?  I didn't get any good explanations from any of them -- and
> pastors couldn't
> answer this question either -- told me that it was a frivolousl question??
>
> So, I got on my knees and asked God to show me the Truth.  And, started
> reading
> my Bible.  And in Ephesians 1 discovered that we cannot get kicked out of
> heaven
> because we don't get to heaven because of who we are, what we are, where
> we've
> been, or where we think we are going -- we get to heaven because of Who
> Jesus says
> He IS!

In Ephesians or any other epistle, does Paul repeat or comment on
anything that Jesus says?

> I don't put the blood around me - Jesus places His blood over me, so that
> when God
> the Father looks at me I become *accepted in the Beloved!*
> And this 6th verse of Ephesians is especially interesting when you are going
> through
> commentary after commentary at the back of a book store and find that half
> the
> commentaries comment on the first half of the verse which says, *To the
> praise of the glory
> of his grace,* and don't comment at all on the second half.
> And the other half of the commentaries say this verse is *obscure*.
> It is the one verse in the Bible that explains that I do nothing to get to
> heaven except
> believe that *God raised Jesus from the Dead* - and God is doing the rest
> for me
> to make me acceptable to God the Father.

Is this something that Jesus says or is it something that St. Paul
says?

[Tell it like it is.]

On Jun 28, 8:58 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

> says?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Bob T.]

On Jun 28, 5:50 am, "Tell it like it is."
<DanielAlbertDesfos...@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

>          To get to hell you have to be ruled by Satan not by God. A
> due respect for the Creator will get you to Heaven. Satan will drag
> you down into Hell. Satan refuses to recognize God. Satan wants to be
> God.
>

How do you know this? Did Satan tell you of his plans?
>
<snip>

>                  God did not create the devil. The devil created
> himself when he rejected his Creator. God created the angels.

It doesn't sound like Satan created himself, it just sounds like he
rebelled against authority... typical teenager.

>               Devils reject the Creator, thereby introducing evil into
> the created world. The entire world refers to those evil spirits that
> reject God as malevolent spirits or demons.

Actually, many of us refer to them as "fictional".

- Bob T

[Tell it like it is.]

Even tough I am a baptized Christian and
indoctrinated into the Bible, the religious and historical history of
ancient Israel [a closed book and I don't mean that in a moron's sense
of the word closed], I have enough sense to know Jews Christians and
Muslims, worshipping as they do the God of Abraham aren't the last
word on religion. Hinduism can be seen as the psychology of all
religions. Bhuddha -ism and Confucius -ism are all valid. Religion,
all religions, seeks the good for mankind. Voodoo is real, Bob T. I
have seen starving impoverished black men not Christian walking like
zombies or the living dead towards a government center for help.
Fiction is what you get from movies.

[Rolf Schuler]

2010/6/28 thea <thea...@gmail.com>

Amen. :-O

[thea]

St. Paul is talking of the things he learned while in the desert before he started

his ministry.  St. Paul says that God taught him the dispensation of the Grace

of God which was not known before.

And, to a True Christian, God confirms through the ministry of the Holy Spirit

the truths in the Bible that apply in this dispensation of the Grace of God.

 

 

 

 

 

>
>
>
> > I don't put the blood around me - Jesus places His blood over me, so that
> > when God
> > the Father looks at me I become *accepted in the Beloved!*
> > And this 6th verse of Ephesians is especially interesting when you are going
> > through
> > commentary after commentary at the back of a book store and find that half
> > the
> > commentaries comment on the first half of the verse which says, *To the
> > praise of the glory
> > of his grace,* and don't comment at all on the second half.
> > And the other half of the commentaries say this verse is *obscure*.
> > It is the one verse in the Bible that explains that I do nothing to get to
> > heaven except
> > believe that *God raised Jesus from the Dead* - and God is doing the rest
> > for me
> > to make me acceptable to God the Father.
>
> Is this something that Jesus says or is it something that St. Paul
> says?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[thea]

We, human beings, have free will because we did not sin in and of ourselves.

Satan sinned in and of himself - so salvation is not an option for him.

We, since Adam sinned because of Satan causing him to, we have

salvation being offered to us.

 

 

le in Ezekiel 28 we see Satan described as the King of
> Tyre.
> *The most beautiful creature created, perfect in wisdom, the anointed cherub
> that covereth,
> he could walk on the stones of fire.  wast perfect in thy ways from the day
> that thou wasst created,
> till iniquity was found in thee.* KJV
> And, the earth would be in perfect working order if Adam and Eve hadn't
> given their
> authority to rule over to Satan.
> When Jesus was temped in the desert - Satan presented all the kingdoms and
> nations
> of the world to HIM and said you can have all this if you will worship
> me(Satan).
> And Jesus said no!!
> So the nations of the world are not Christian or Godly at all - because
> Jesus didn't
> accept them.

               You mean Satan rules the man-made world, the nations,
that man created.

 

 

Man has not really created anything.  Mankind only takes what is already here

and redoes it to form something they call *new* - but there is nothing new under

the sun or so said King Solomon in the Bible.

 

 

> So, where are we - stuck someplace between heaven and hell.  To get to
> heaven all
> we have to do is believe that *God raised Jesus from the dead*.  To go to
> hell all we have to do is do nothing.

        To get to hell you have to be ruled by Satan not by God. A
due respect for the Creator will get you to Heaven. Satan will drag
you down into Hell. Satan refuses to recognize God. Satan wants to be
God.

 

 

Respect gets you to hell -- you have to accept the fact that God sent His Only Begotten

Son to die in your place - in order to have redemption from Satan's sin.

Satan was the most beautiful of God's creation or so says Ezekiel.  God

created Satan - but Satan thought he would be like the Most High - and

when Satan decided that he would be God - God said no - and that

is when Satan sinned.  St. Paul says Satan's sin was the *pride of

life*  -- in other words, that chip we sometimes wear on our shoulder

of pride - is Satan's sin.

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

Then, what you claim is based on who Paul claims he is (a student of
God), not who Jesus says he is.

[thea]

Ephesians 1:13 says that *In whom ye also trusted (Jesus), after ye heard the word of truth, the

gospel of your salvation; in whom also after ye believe, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of

promise.*

Ephesians 1:14 *Who is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption

of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.*

 

In other words the Holy Spirit living in a Christian witnesses to the truth of *Christ in you the Hope

of Glory.*

 

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jun 28, 10:33 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Tell it like it is. <DanielAlbertDesfos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >         To get to hell you have to be ruled by Satan not by God. A
> > due respect for the Creator will get you to Heaven. Satan will drag
> > you down into Hell. Satan refuses to recognize God. Satan wants to be
> > God.

Did you get this from Satan or from those who slander Satan? Satan
says next to nothing in the Bible; just about everything claimed about
him comes from those who bash him. Even the claim that Satan sinned
comes from those who bash Satan.

> Respect gets you to hell -- you have to accept the fact that God sent His
> Only Begotten
> Son to die in your place - in order to have redemption from Satan's sin.

Is it a fact if Paul's claims are not factual? Jesus says there will
be false teachers. What tests does Jesus prescribe for distinguishing
between a true teacher and a false one? Did Paul pass these tests?

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jun 28, 10:53 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ephesians 1:13 says that *In whom ye also trusted (Jesus), after ye heard
> the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after ye believe,
> ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.*
> Ephesians 1:14 *Who is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance until
> the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.*

This was not heard by those who trusted Jesus and heard from him the
gospel of their salvation.

> In other words the Holy Spirit living in a Christian witnesses to the truth
> of *Christ in you the Hope of Glory.*

In other words, St. Paul makes claims without providing proof that he
is not a false teacher.

[thea]

As a Christian, I am well aware that when I am with other True Believers, that the

Holy Spirit is in our midst.  Where two or three are gathered together in the Name

of Jesus, HE is there.

There is something supernatural that lets us know that we can rejoice in Jesus

when we are together.

 

This is something that I became aware of as a youngster at Camp Meetings during

the summers.  This *Holy Spirit* of promise which was a tangible force in the

meetings.

 

There is something that cannot be explained with words about the glorious experience

of knowing that your sins are forever forgiven, that they are under the *blood of the

cross of Calvary, and as far removed as darkness is from light, and in the sea of

God's forgetfulness* - it is tangible.

 

But, when one has the presence of the Holy Spirit - and another person is not a

Christian - the non-Christian gets mad, because of the enmity (which is present

and talked about in Genesis 3:15)

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jun 28, 11:13 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:01 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 28, 10:53 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As a Christian, I am well aware that when I am with other True Believers,
> that the Holy Spirit is in our midst.  Where two or three are gathered together
> in the Name of Jesus, HE is there.
> There is something supernatural that lets us know that we can rejoice in
> Jesus when we are together.

Mormons believe that he comes down and hangs out with them. If you're
a dispensationalist and you're in America, then you must be in the
Mormon dispensation:->

> This is something that I became aware of as a youngster at Camp Meetings
> during the summers.  This *Holy Spirit* of promise which was a tangible force
> in the meetings.

I've been to such meetings myself. Whatever moved some of them didn't
wear a badge saying "Holy Spirit". I've also been to drunken revelry
where Spirit* was a tangible force:-)
* ethyl alcohol present in beverages, that is

> There is something that cannot be explained with words about the glorious
> experience of knowing that your sins are forever forgiven, that they are
> under the *blood of the cross of Calvary, and as far removed as darkness is
> from light, and in the sea of God's forgetfulness* - it is tangible.

Then, it cannot be explained to the people who heard Jesus preaching
at the Mount, the Plain, etc., since Jesus forgot to preach to them
that their sins were under any blood of any cross.

> But, when one has the presence of the Holy Spirit - and another person is
> not a Christian - the non-Christian gets mad,

When Philemon the slave owner has the presence of the Holy Spirit and
the good Samaritan is not a Christian, the good Samaritan would get
mad?

> because of the enmity (which is
> present and talked about in Genesis 3:15)

The good Samaritan would get mad because of Philemon the Christian
slave owner's enemity toward him?

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Jun 28, 10:34 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 28, 11:13 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:01 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Jun 28, 10:53 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > As a Christian, I am well aware that when I am with other True Believers,
> > that the Holy Spirit is in our midst.  Where two or three are gathered together
> > in the Name of Jesus, HE is there.
> > There is something supernatural that lets us know that we can rejoice in
> > Jesus when we are together.
>
> Mormons believe that he comes down and hangs out with them. If you're
> a dispensationalist and you're in America, then you must be in the
> Mormon dispensation:->
>
> > This is something that I became aware of as a youngster at Camp Meetings
> > during the summers.  This *Holy Spirit* of promise which was a tangible force
> > in the meetings.
>
> I've been to such meetings myself. Whatever moved some of them didn't
> wear a badge saying "Holy Spirit". I've also been to drunken revelry
> where Spirit* was a tangible force:-)
> * ethyl alcohol present in beverages, that is

I feel sorry for people who have never felt this kind of group energy
lifting their spirits (and it doesn't need alcohol). I have certainly
felt it, and it's wonderful.

But I, personally, have never felt it at any Christian event.

[clegmeister]

Thea
When you say that you feel the holy spirit is with you when you are in
a group, I tend to class this as the Emperor's news clothes syndrome.
You must have heard the story about the Emperor who was conned by a
pair of tailors into walking around naked and believing he was wearing
magical clothes that only very special people can see, when in fact
there were no clothes and he had been conned into buying nothing, but
because he didn't want others to believe that he couldn't see these
magical clothes he pretended that he could see them, and he went out
in front of his people absolutely naked, and because all of his people
didn't want to look silly, they all said that they could see his new
clothes.
and it was only when a small child shouted out that the emperor was
naked, that everyone realized that he had been conned.

well I see the theists as the Emperor and his people, and us atheists
as the small child.

hope you understand my meaning
On Jun 28, 4:13 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:01 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at

> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -

[Alan Wostenberg]

Yes. God did create everything. Nor is it a one-time event (that's
Deism not Theism). God conserves in being everything that exists for
every moment it exists. So when the soldiers were nailing God to the
cross, He sustained them, the nails, that cross, in existence.

Yes. God creates and sustains everything in being. Now, is evil a
thing?

On Jun 26, 11:54 am, clegmeister <clegmeis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> When I debate religion with some of my christian friends they always
> try to convince me that God created everything.
> so firstly I ask them did god creat everything, they answer yes
> secondly I ask does god know everything including past/present/future,
> they answer yes

> thirdly I ask if God created everything then he must have created

> GOOD, they answer yes
> I then say if he created GOOD then he must have created EVIL, they
> answer no?
> they tell me that the devil created EVIL.

> I say but didn't God created the devil, they say no?

> I then say I thought you said god created everything, this must
> include GOOD/EVIL and the devil
> this is when most christians start back peddling and denying that

> God would not create anything that was bad.

> isn't it amazing that when you point out the obvious to the theists
> how much they refuse to believe it.

> my understanding of religious people is that they have lazy brains and

[thea]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:34 PM, ranjit_...@yahoo.com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jun 28, 11:13 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:01 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 28, 10:53 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As a Christian, I am well aware that when I am with other True Believers,
> that the Holy Spirit is in our midst.  Where two or three are gathered together
> in the Name of Jesus, HE is there.
> There is something supernatural that lets us know that we can rejoice in
> Jesus when we are together.

Mormons believe that he comes down and hangs out with them. If you're
a dispensationalist and you're in America, then you must be in the
Mormon dispensation:->

 

I do not talk about the cults -- they are offshoots of Christianity and most denominations

are cults in that they believe that if you do not believe what they believe you are not

going to heaven.

I do not belong to any cults - or any organized religions in America.  They all want

your money and then they don't pay taxes of anything they buy.  Why should I

support everyone I don't believe in.

 

 

> This is something that I became aware of as a youngster at Camp Meetings
> during the summers.  This *Holy Spirit* of promise which was a tangible force
> in the meetings.

I've been to such meetings myself. Whatever moved some of them didn't
wear a badge saying "Holy Spirit". I've also been to drunken revelry
where Spirit* was a tangible force:-)
* ethyl alcohol present in beverages, that is

> There is something that cannot be explained with words about the glorious
> experience of knowing that your sins are forever forgiven, that they are
> under the *blood of the cross of Calvary, and as far removed as darkness is
> from light, and in the sea of God's forgetfulness* - it is tangible.

Then, it cannot be explained to the people who heard Jesus preaching
at the Mount, the Plain, etc., since Jesus forgot to preach to them
that their sins were under any blood of any cross.

 

When Jesus came to earth, HE came to set up His Kingdom on Earth.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John tell of what would have been the Kingdom

of God on earth, if Israel had accepted Jesus as their Messiah.

In Romans 1:21 - St. Paul explains that Israel was set aside (the ones

who knew God) because they were unthankful - and they have been

in great apostasy ever since.

But, in Revelations we see that God will set up His Kingdom on

Earth, and it is coming.

This dispensation in which we are now living will end with the taking

away of the Christians before God reigns His Wrath on the unbelievers.

 

The only thing I have to do to get to heaven - is believe *that God raised

His Only Begotten Son, Jesus, from the dead.*  Romans 10:9.

 

 

 

> But, when one has the presence of the Holy Spirit - and another person is
> not a Christian - the non-Christian gets mad,

When Philemon the slave owner has the presence of the Holy Spirit and
the good Samaritan is not a Christian, the good Samaritan would get

mad?

> because of the enmity (which is
> present and talked about in Genesis 3:15)

The good Samaritan would get mad because of Philemon the Christian
slave owner's enemity toward him?

 

Probably

[thea]

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:12 AM, clegmeister <clegm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Thea
When you say that you feel the holy spirit is with you when you are in
a group, I tend to class this as the Emperor's news clothes syndrome.
You must have heard the story about the Emperor who was conned by a
pair of tailors into walking around naked and believing he was wearing
magical clothes that only very special people can see, when in fact
there were no clothes and he had been conned into buying nothing, but
because he didn't want others to believe that he couldn't see these
magical clothes he pretended that he could see them, and he went out
in front of his people absolutely naked, and because all of his people
didn't want to look silly, they all said that they could see his new
clothes.
and it was only when a small child shouted out that the emperor was
naked, that everyone realized that he had been conned.

well I see the theists as the Emperor and his people, and us atheists
as the small child.

hope you understand my meaning

 

I understand what you are saying.

Howbeit, I was directly quoting the Bible.

 

 

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jun 29, 3:34 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:34 PM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 28, 11:13 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:01 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jun 28, 10:53 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > As a Christian, I am well aware that when I am with other True Believers,
> > > that the Holy Spirit is in our midst.  Where two or three are gathered
> > together
> > > in the Name of Jesus, HE is there.
> > > There is something supernatural that lets us know that we can rejoice in
> > > Jesus when we are together.
>
> > Mormons believe that he comes down and hangs out with them. If you're
> > a dispensationalist and you're in America, then you must be in the
> > Mormon dispensation:->
>
> I do not talk about the cults -- they are offshoots of Christianity

You do talk about one - the offshoot established by St. Paul.

[thea]

Who do you say Jesus is?

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jun 30, 8:58 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:00 PM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > > Mormons believe that he comes down and hangs out with them. If you're
> > > > a dispensationalist and you're in America, then you must be in the
> > > > Mormon dispensation:->
>
> > > I do not talk about the cults -- they are offshoots of Christianity
>
> > You do talk about one - the offshoot established by St. Paul.
>
> Who do you say Jesus is?

Once, Gandhi was asked whether he was a Hindu. He replied "Yes, and a
Christian and a Muslim too." Now, what do you say Gandhi was? Was he
what he said he was? That is, do you say that Gandhi was a Hindu and a
Christian and a Muslim? Or do you say that Gandhi was not what he said
he was but was just engaging in hyperbole to show that he was not
parochial or to show that it was not good to be parochial?

Now, for determining an answer to your question: Who does Jesus
currently say he is? Is he what he said he was, to Jewish audiences a
couple of millenia back? Is he what Paul said he was, to gentile
audiences a couple of millenia back? Or were both Jesus and Paul
engaging in hyperbole? What has Jesus said in the last year or last
decade about who he is? If he hasn't said anything within this time
frame, how are we to know who he currently is?

[Answer_42]

On Jun 28, 10:33 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> We, human beings, have free will because we did not sin in and of ourselves.
> Satan sinned in and of himself - so salvation is not an option for him.
> We, since Adam sinned because of Satan causing him to, we have
> salvation being offered to us.

thea, I am still waiting for you to explain why god chose the worst
possible option regarding his fallen angels...

Long after the fallen angel business, Adam and Eve were apparently
created in a perfect state in a perfect place; yet, your god allowed
Satan to come in and screw everything up...

If your god is truly omnipotent, it would have been so easy for him to
prevent Satan to go to Eden and fuck things up.
Why didn't he?

Now, as it stands:
Your god created humans in perfect environment.
Then this god allowed someone to fuck things up.
So your god had to find some amazingly ludicrous way to fix things up
so that ultimately things can go back to how the were before the
interloper screwed up everything...

Now, considering that this god is allegedly omnipotent AND omniscient,
why mess about with all this when it would have been much easier to
simply prevent anyone from messing with his originally perfect set up?

None of that crazy story make sense, it is all pure superstitions and
badly thought out crap that goat farmers came up with to try to
rationalize their suffering, pain and erratic behaviours (it is not
our fault, we are born as sinners...).
_______________________________________________
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in
one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
-- George Orwell

[e_space]

i realize that this is a hard concept for some to consider, but "god"
and religion are not necessarily tied at the hip. virtually all
peoples of the world adhere to some religion or ritual, and believe in
a higher "being" of some sort or another. i agree that their
descriptions of such are often bizarre and unbelievable, but to deny
the potential that something greater than what we exist as now is
feasible, is more than just skeptical imo, it slams the door shut
spiritual growth ... but of course, you dont believe in spirit do
you? ... so no big loss i guess ...

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jun 30, 12:10 pm, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i realize that this is a hard concept for some to consider, but "god"
> and religion are not necessarily tied at the hip. virtually all
> peoples of the world adhere to some religion or ritual, and believe in
> a higher "being" of some sort or another. i agree that their
> descriptions of such are often bizarre and unbelievable,

Sometimes even to themselves. A certain proportion of theist Hindus
are known to acknowledge that their favorite demigods and/or gods are
a front for the real thing and that for those who are not monks/
hermits, celebrating the bizarre tales surrounding these figures is
much more fun than going in search of the real thing and besides, that
the real God likes this arrangement too, preferring to remain
incognito behind the scenes listening to, and answering, prayers made
to his false fronts.

> but to deny
> the potential that something greater than what we exist as now is

> feasible, is more than just skeptical imo, it slams the door shut on

[clegmeister]

e_space

For the last few 1000 years religion has been a cancer eating away at
society, think about how many people have died in the name of
religion, whole countrys at war with each other because someones
religion is slightly different to their neighbours religion.
The Romans, Egyptians, Greeks and scandinavians had many many Gods.
Today ten of millions still believe in different Gods and each
religion claiming that their God is the true God, there are still too
many religious nutters out there ready to kill innocent people for the
sake of their God.

Both of the top 2 religions christians and muslims are guilty of
serious crimes against humanity, and both claim that they are peaceful
religions???????

We Atheists only believe in one less God than you believers.

Up to about the last 150 years the church forced people to believe in
God, if you admitted that you didn't believe in God the church had you
executed, so it is not to hard to understand why religion managed to
get such vice like hold on society.

Now that we are a lot better educated, and that we have a better
understanding of the world around us, religion is starting to die out,
there are more atheists speaking out and forcing the believers i.e
uneducated/gullible and just plain lazy minded people to try and think
for themselves,

It is a difficult fight but I believe that one day common sense will
prevail, and that religion will be wiped off the face of the earth,
just like small pox.

A world without a God, something to look forward too.

> > -- George Orwell- Hide quoted text -

[Brock]

On Jun 26, 1:54 pm, clegmeister <clegmeis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> When I debate religion with some of my christian friends they always
> try to convince me that God created everything.
> so firstly I ask them did god creat everything, they answer yes
> secondly I ask does god know everything including past/present/future,
> they answer yes

> thirdly I ask if god created everything then he must have created

> GOOD, they answer yes
> I then say if he created GOOD then he must have created EVIL, they
> answer no?
> they tell me that the devil created EVIL.

> I say but didn't god creat the devil, they say no?

> I then say I thought you said god created everything, this must
> include GOOD/EVIL and the devil

Or that God created beings with a limited and bounded moral agency,
with an obligation of obedience to His divine commands.

Nothing wrong with that. :)

Regards,

Brock

[xeno]

On Jun 30, 6:12 pm, Brock <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or that God created beings with a limited and bounded moral agency,

Or limited & bounded beings created a god to imagine their power
increased to infinity & personified as a separate being.
Now which is more plausible? A perfect being makes imperfect creatures
OR imperfect creatures imagine a perfect one to compensate for their
limitations?

[Simon Ewins]

On 29 June 2010 14:34, Alan Wostenberg <awo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes. God did create everything. Nor is it a one-time event (that's
> Deism not Theism). God conserves in being everything that exists for
> every moment it exists. So when the soldiers were nailing God to the
> cross, He sustained them, the nails, that cross, in existence.
>
> Yes. God creates and sustains everything in being. Now, is evil a
> thing?

Evil acts and evil people are. Why 'sustain' those if it is not
desired that they be sustained. If everything must be constantly
sustained then God had no problem with Hitler sxterminating Jews or
Dahmer eating young men's body parts. If there was an issue all that
had to be done was to stop sustaining them. That they are sustained
when they could have not been makes God directly responsible for these
horrors.

>
> On Jun 26, 11:54 am, clegmeister <clegmeis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> When I debate religion with some of my christian friends they always
>> try to convince me that God created everything.
>> so firstly I ask them did god creat everything, they answer yes
>> secondly I ask does god know everything including past/present/future,
>> they answer yes
>> thirdly I ask if God created everything then he must have created
>> GOOD, they answer yes
>> I then say if he created GOOD then he must have created EVIL, they
>> answer no?
>> they tell me that the devil created EVIL.
>> I say but didn't God created the devil, they say no?
>> I then say I thought you said god created everything, this must
>> include GOOD/EVIL and the devil
>> this is when most christians start back peddling and denying that
>> God would not create anything that was bad.
>> isn't it amazing that when you point out the obvious to the theists
>> how much they refuse to believe it.
>> my understanding of religious people is that they have lazy brains and
>> are completely unable to think for themselves,they conveniently think
>> that all that is good was created by god and all that is evil was
>> created by the devil, and totally refuse to believe that god had to
>> have creaded the devil.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> To post to this group, send email to atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
>

--
"Only that in you which is me can hear what I'm saying." [Baba Ram Dass]

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Jun 29, 2:34 pm, Alan Wostenberg <awo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes. God did create everything. Nor is it a one-time event (that's
> Deism not Theism). God conserves in being everything that exists for
> every moment it exists. So when the soldiers were nailing God to the
> cross, He sustained them, the nails, that cross, in existence.

I've always wondered how Aristotle tested that hypothesis. Maybe he
had a primitive wooden cyclotron? Homemade Geiger counter?

And what's the experiment - get a bunch of people making contradictory
prayers to distract God, and see if the rate of radioactive decay
increases? With primitive wooden cyclotrons in both Athens and
Alexandria, you could see if the distraction caused a universal or a
merely local effect.

Or maybe this was just a thought experiment, an inspired guess based
on pure logic and first principles, like Aristotle's other
unbelievably accurate declarations of fact about the natural world.

[clegmeister]

Hey Brock

"Or that God created beings with a limited and bounded moral agency,
with an obligation of obedience to His divine commands.

Nothing wrong with that. :) "

Why don't you just say mindless zombie slaves

[Will]

Wasn't he a philosopher, so he thought about, supposidly a lot, then
come to that conclusion, or am I being too plain?

> > > have creaded the devil.- Hide quoted text -

[e_space]

i can appreciate that ... imo "god' is not a physical entity, so it is
understandable (to me) that some decide to use an object that is
symbolic to drool over

On Jun 30, 12:53 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

[e_space]

i can appreciate that ... imo "god' is not a physical entity, so it is
understandable (to me) that some decide to use an object that is
symbolic to drool over

On Jun 30, 12:53 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[e_space]

sure religion can be blamed for atrocities, just like those who dont
believe in religion can be blamed for atrocities ... but many wars
that people consider religious, are more often disputes over
territory, food, ancient feuds, government, vicious dictators, etc.
there are kooks all over who claim to be doing things because "god"
told them to, probably a good insanity defense mechanism at best.

other than radicals that are indiscriminate (muslims were killed by
muslims in the world trade center), or pedophile priests, not many
people these days actually get hurt by religion. it is the hierarchy
of religion that does the most damage, and i agree that something
should be done about this. in fact, i have had several anti RC
articles posted in my local newspaper. i do not have many positive
things to say about the hierarchy of religion.

you may call me a believer if you want, but i dont subscribe to any
religion. i have reason to consider that a higher level of
consciousness exists, and that we can all tap into it. man made
religion has NOTHING to do with this. the experiences that i have had
lead me to refer to this as 'god', and it is entirely non-physical. i
dont expect you to believe this and i am not promoting 'god' to
anyone, only that they introspect for 'spiritual' answers ... if you
dont have any such ambition, no big deal ...

it seems that you are chastising religion for forcing "god" on the
people, but then say that today atheists are forcing believers to
reconsider. forcing anyone to do anything is not right, and since you
really have no idea about 'god', why do you call those who do believe
uneducated/gullible/lazy minded? many people get uplifted by their
religion, so why are you trying to force them to abandon this, even if
you feel that their belief is unfounded?

as far as believers being uneducated, atheists are also uneducated in
regards to 'god', so why should they give up something that gives them
pleasure? what are you suggesting they replace it with ... spiritual
voidness?

[TLC]

e-space,

What a load of cant, empty, hypocritical talk, about spiritual
voidness! Do have any evidence of a place which is full of spirits,
other than in a whiskey bottle?

Of course you don't, just empty phrases saying people will enter a
spiritual voidness if they don't have belief' in mythical beings!

Are your "non-physical experiences" any more real than a lonely child
who has an invisible friend? No they are not!

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[e_space]

dont give up your day job to be a psychic my friend, just keep being
psychotic, as it suits you much better ... just kidding, i know you
are quite a reasonable character (cough) ;-^)

dont you think it is rather arrogant to suggest that you somehow know
what someone else has experienced? ... first of all, would you care to
refresh my mind and tell me where i stated that there was a "place
full of spirits"? could you also show me where i referred to a
"being", whether mythical or not? your emotional state is getting in
the way of reality there kiddo, your anger putting words into your
rabid little mind ... chill out a bit son, go for a walk, enjoy the
sunshine ;-^)

[Steve in Virginia]

The Bible is not an historical reference. It is a book of apocryphal
tales against a loosely sketched out against the backdrop of ancient
Middle Eastern history. Where in the OT we have a murdering,
psychotic monster borrowed from the more some of the more merciless
religions of the ancient Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians, who, in
the NT, transmogrifies into a more sedate, reserved and palatable
demon thanks to the spread of Greek stoicism and logic..

Steve

"Science flies you to the Moon, and religion flies you into
buildings."



On Jun 27, 12:15 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 4:27 AM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >   On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 2:05 AM, Rolf Schuler <
> > schulerr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> >> 2010/6/26 Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>
>
> >>>  On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 3:48 PM, clegmeister <clegmeis...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>> another point I'd like to make is that christians say they believe
> >>>> every word in the bible, but when you ask them have they read all of
> >>>> the evil things written in the old testiment such as.
>
> >>>>  "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the
> >>>> city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy;
> >>>> have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and
> >>>> little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your
> >>>> task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy
> >>>> leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its
> >>>> courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went
> >>>> throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)"
>
> >>>> Suddenly they say they don't believe this part of the bible.
> >>>> isn't it amazing how they only cherry pick the nice parts of the bible
> >>>> and completely ignore all of the horrific murderous parts of the old
> >>>> testament.
> >>>> also why don't preists mention these passages of the bible at church
> >>>> on sundays? hmmmmmm
> >>>> my main point is you either believe the whole of the bible, good parts
> >>>> and bad, or you don't believe any of it, you can't have it both ways
>
> >>> The number and types of rationalizations for that one are numerous. Lol.
>
> >>> Limited only the creativity of the person being talked to :-)
>
> >>> Goodness! This part by Ezechiel sounds to me very much like that, what
> >> the Nazis did to the Jews.
>
> > Well I guess they had to get their ideas from somewhere....
>
> This is why if you haven't learned to rightly divide the Word of Truth - you
> end up trying to apply to your
> life what you don't need to apply.
> Constantly remembering that the OT is the genealogy of Jesus and is History
> - means that you can
> learn what works and doesn't work, what's wrong and what's right - but not
> necessarily to be applied
> directly to your life.
> In the NT it is the Dispensation of the Grace of God as St. Paul explains
> that is for us as Gentiles in
> this day and age in which we live.
> Oh the glorious facts given of life eternal with Jesus Christ in Heaven.
>
> >  --
> > "Anti-theism at it's best means holding religion to the same standard as
> > everything else." --Dev

>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[flying gorilla]

except that the god they imagined isn't perfect either. it is just as
flawed as its human creators. Perfection isn't even a real thing. Its
so silly that theists insist that god is perfect. It would be less
logically inconsistant for them to say that god has a standard and our
opinion of this standard is irrelevent. But to insist that this
standard is "good" is nonsensical. Words like "good" and "perfection"
are just relative to the observer's experience. Nobody can be wrong
for saying god is good, bad, ugly, etc because there is no absolute
when it comes to opinions. In one breath they say we can't judge god,
and in the next breath, THEY judge god by saying he's absolutely good.
I would think god would be insulted by this.

[flying gorilla]

do you really believe in evil, or do you just use those words as
metaphors? A tiger doesn't care if a human kills another human, nor
would I judge a tiger for doing what is in his nature. Of course, I
wouldn't just sit there while he bit off my head just because it was
his nature, just like I wouldn't be accepting of a human killing
another human. But I wouldn't call it evil because I don't believe in
the absolutes of good and evil. Except as helpful metaphors to
describe certain aspects of the human experience. Which is probably
what you're doing? just askin'...

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> --
> "Only that in you which is me can hear what I'm saying." [Baba Ram Dass]- Hide quoted text -

[thea]

Jesus said:  *I am the way, the truth and the life.  Any man who comes to me, I will
in no way turn away.*
To have life eternal, I must accept the fact that Jesus died in my place on Calvary.
And to know the truth, is to ask God the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ for truth.  As
God teaches us the truth, that Jesus was raised from the dead for our salvation.
The only approach to God the Father is through His Son, Jesus.

The reason for all of this is because we cannot get to heaven by being *good enough*.
We can only be accepted by God the Father by believing that the Blood of the Cross
of Calvary covers our sins.  We are accepted by God through Jesus Christ.
There is no other salvation which can be had, than accepted that God sent
His Only Begotten Son, Jesus, to take care of the sins of the world.

I have studied the Bible for over 35 years.  I have made an amazing discovering when
reading other religious texts.  In no other text is their a payment for *original sin*
except in the Bible.  There is no sacrifice for sin which is acceptable by God the
Father than that of the death of His Only Begotten Son, Jesus.

So, I will accept the plan of salvation, in which I am made clean by the sacrifice
of Jesus - and am covering by the Blood of Calvary.

And - I then received a *know-so* salvation, in which I became aware of the wonderful
presence of the Holy Spirit.  The leading, guiding, and directing of my life because
of this Blood Covering, is wonderful.
The water is fine -- Come on in - and you will discover that there is rejoicing,
and peace that passes understanding.

[thea]

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 9:24 AM, Answer_42 <ipu.be...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jun 28, 10:33 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:


> We, human beings, have free will because we did not sin in and of ourselves.
> Satan sinned in and of himself - so salvation is not an option for him.
> We, since Adam sinned because of Satan causing him to, we have
> salvation being offered to us.

thea, I am still waiting for you to explain why god chose the worst
possible option regarding his fallen angels...

Long after the fallen angel business, Adam and Eve were apparently
created in a perfect state in a perfect place; yet, your god allowed
Satan to come in and screw everything up...

If your god is truly omnipotent, it would have been so easy for him to
prevent Satan to go to Eden and fuck things up.
Why didn't he?

Because God wanted people who would believe in HIM and follow HIM in
spite of having evil surround them.
How else could you have a race of people who can get to heaven and
not commit Satan's sin of *pride of life*.
When mankind can only get to heaven because of being *accepted in
Jesus Christ* - it means that we cannot commit Satan's sin.
And, this is the whole gist of the Bible.  A way of redemption that
is not what I do, where I am, who I am, why I am, or When I am,
but it is only because I accept the fact that God did it all for me.

 

Now, as it stands:
Your god created humans in perfect environment.
Then this god allowed someone to fuck things up.
So your god had to find some amazingly ludicrous way to fix things up
so that ultimately things can go back to how the were before the
interloper screwed up everything...

Now, considering that this god is allegedly omnipotent AND omniscient,
why mess about with all this when it would have been much easier to
simply prevent anyone from messing with his originally perfect set up?

None of that crazy story make sense, it is all pure superstitions and
badly thought out crap that goat farmers came up with to try to
rationalize their suffering, pain and erratic behaviours (it is not
our fault, we are born as sinners...).

see above.
 

_______________________________________________
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in
one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
-- George Orwell

--

[TLC]

e-space,

Nice to know that you now admit that imaginary beings like spirits
don't exist and it's impossible to enter a "spiritual voidness"
because there is no place full of spirits.

And why do you consider your OWN personal feelings or delusions as
being real experiences?

Believe me, I don't want to make a monkey out of you. Why should I
take all the credit?

[Answer_42]

On Jul 1, 2:55 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > We, human beings, have free will because we did not sin in and of
> > ourselves.
> > > Satan sinned in and of himself - so salvation is not an option for him.
> > > We, since Adam sinned because of Satan causing him to, we have
> > > salvation being offered to us.
>
> > thea, I am still waiting for you to explain why god chose the worst
> > possible option regarding his fallen angels...
>
> > Long after the fallen angel business, Adam and Eve were apparently
> > created in a perfect state in a perfect place; yet, your god allowed
> > Satan to come in and screw everything up...
>
> > If your god is truly omnipotent, it would have been so easy for him to
> > prevent Satan to go to Eden and fuck things up.
> > Why didn't he?
>
> Because God wanted people who would believe in HIM

Why?
How do you know what he wanted before any of us even existed?

> and follow HIM in
> spite of having evil surround them.

Why?
How do you know what he wanted before any of us even existed?

> How else could you have a race of people who can get to heaven and
> not commit Satan's sin of *pride of life*.

And what is wrong with creating every one so that every one can get to
heaven?

Also, why did he create the first beings in a place that was perfect
then?
If his goal was to have us choose between him and Satan, then create
us in no uncertain way in such a place, not in a place where there
exist the illusion that Satan does not exist only to have Satan come
in later and screw things up.

Again, the story makes no sense.

> When mankind can only get to heaven because of being *accepted in
> Jesus Christ* - it means that we cannot commit Satan's sin.
> And, this is the whole gist of the Bible.  A way of redemption that
> is not what I do, where I am, who I am, why I am, or When I am,
> but it is only because I accept the fact that God did it all for me.

Oh, so, close you eyes, close your ears, do nothing, and simply
believe.

Any self-respecting being would not set things up in such an asinine
way, it makes no sense at all.
___________________________________________
Oh, what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to believe!
-- Laurence Peter

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jun 27, 12:15 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 4:27 AM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:

> >>> Goodness! This part by Ezechiel sounds to me very much like that, what
> >> the Nazis did to the Jews.
>
> > Well I guess they had to get their ideas from somewhere....
>
> This is why if you haven't learned to rightly divide the Word of Truth - you
> end up trying to apply to your
> life what you don't need to apply.
> Constantly remembering that the OT is the genealogy of Jesus and is History
> - means that you can
> learn what works and doesn't work, what's wrong and what's right - but not
> necessarily to be applied
> directly to your life.
> In the NT it is the Dispensation of the Grace of God as St. Paul explains
> that is for us as Gentiles in
> this day and age in which we live.

When, and from whom, did St. Paul learn this dispensation?

> Oh the glorious facts given of life eternal with Jesus Christ in Heaven.

Is any of these "facts" stated by Jesus himself? Does he say anything
like "life eternal with ME in heaven"?

[e_space]

nice dodge ... and still full of inaccuracies

just wondering, but why comment on something that you know nothing
about? just bored or what?

the only thing you can take credit for is making statements void of
knowledge, but thats normal for you, so no gold star! keep trying
though ... or not ;-^)

[thea]

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, ranjit_...@yahoo.com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jun 27, 12:15 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 4:27 AM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:

> >>> Goodness! This part by Ezechiel sounds to me very much like that, what
> >> the Nazis did to the Jews.
>
> > Well I guess they had to get their ideas from somewhere....
>
> This is why if you haven't learned to rightly divide the Word of Truth - you
> end up trying to apply to your
> life what you don't need to apply.
> Constantly remembering that the OT is the genealogy of Jesus and is History
> - means that you can
> learn what works and doesn't work, what's wrong and what's right - but not
> necessarily to be applied
> directly to your life.
> In the NT it is the Dispensation of the Grace of God as St. Paul explains
> that is for us as Gentiles in
> this day and age in which we live.

When, and from whom, did St. Paul learn this dispensation?

God took him out into the desert and taught him.  St. Paul states that God showed him
what had not been foretold to Israel.  That the dispensation of the Grace of God given
to Jews and Greeks (and everyone) had been hidden from the Foundation of the Earth.
But, that we who are Christians, had been chosen by God from BEFORE the
foundation of the earth - and that means all of us were chosen by God from BEFORE
the foundation of the earth who are living today.
 

> Oh the glorious facts given of life eternal with Jesus Christ in Heaven.

Is any of these "facts" stated by Jesus himself? Does he say anything
like "life eternal with ME in heaven"?

John 3:16 says that *God sent His Son, that whoever, belileves in Jesus will
have life eternal.*
 

[Rolf Schuler]

Quote: " When, and from whom, did St. Paul learn this dispensation?"

I bet he suckled it from his fingers :-O

Rolf

2010/7/3 ranjit_...@yahoo.com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com>

[Timothy 1:4a]

He was a philosopher, and a good one whom I respect, but he had a very
poor track record when predicting facts about the natural world.

For example, he told us that the orbits of the planets must be round,
and why? Because the circle is the perfect shape. But guess what? The
orbits of the planets are NOT round, and his reasoning was spurious.

As Wikipedia puts it, "In places, Aristotle goes too far in deriving
'laws of the universe' from simple observation and over-stretched
reason. Today's scientific method assumes that such thinking without
sufficient facts is ineffective..."

Aristotle, his teacher Plato, their buddies, and their disciples in
future generations put *much* too much faith in the ability of pure
reason to determine truths about the natural world. In cases where we
can do experiments, we have often proven them wrong. In cases where
experiments are impossible (like a god being necessary to permanently
sustain the universe) we are fully justified to doubt their
conclusions. It is pagan philosophy, unsupported by science and
equally unsupported by the Bible.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jul 3, 10:39 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
>
>
>
>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 27, 12:15 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 4:27 AM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
>
> > > >>> Goodness! This part by Ezechiel sounds to me very much like that,
> > what
> > > >> the Nazis did to the Jews.
>
> > > > Well I guess they had to get their ideas from somewhere....
>
> > > This is why if you haven't learned to rightly divide the Word of Truth -
> > you
> > > end up trying to apply to your
> > > life what you don't need to apply.
> > > Constantly remembering that the OT is the genealogy of Jesus and is
> > History
> > > - means that you can
> > > learn what works and doesn't work, what's wrong and what's right - but
> > not
> > > necessarily to be applied
> > > directly to your life.
> > > In the NT it is the Dispensation of the Grace of God as St. Paul explains
> > > that is for us as Gentiles in
> > > this day and age in which we live.
>
> > When, and from whom, did St. Paul learn this dispensation?
>
> God took him out into the desert and taught him.

Acts says that Paul experienced a vision of Jesus on his journey to
Damascus and lost his sight. His attendants brought him to Damascus.
Acts claims that God instructed one Ananias, "a disciple at Damascus",
to go to him there. Ananias miraculously cured Paul of his blindness.
Acts claims that Paul was filled with the holy spirit and was
baptized. He preached Christ in Damascus.
http://www.christianorigins.com/pauldamascus.html
In this account, where is a desert mentioned? How did Paul learn what
to preach in Damascus?

> St. Paul states that God
> showed him what had not been foretold to Israel.

Why did Jesus not teach it to Israel? Did Jesus want Israel to go to
hell and only gentiles to go to heaven?

> That the dispensation of the Grace of God given
> to Jews and Greeks (and everyone) had been hidden from the Foundation of the
> Earth.

Ah, so the dispensation of grace was hidden before Adam was created,
eh?

> But, that we who are Christians, had been chosen by God from BEFORE the
> foundation of the earth - and that means all of us were chosen by God from
> BEFORE the foundation of the earth who are living today.

You were chosen a few thousand years before you were born? Then, did
you exist before birth?

> > > Oh the glorious facts given of life eternal with Jesus Christ in Heaven.
>
> > Is any of these "facts" stated by Jesus himself? Does he say anything
> > like "life eternal with ME in heaven"?
>
> John 3:16 says that *God sent His Son, that whoever, belileves in Jesus will
> have life eternal.*

Is that a statement by Jesus himself?

[Alan Wostenberg]

On Jun 30, 8:58 pm, "Timothy 1:4a" <canfanor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 29, 2:34 pm, Alan Wostenberg <awo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes. God did create everything. Nor is it a one-time event (that's
> > Deism not Theism). God conserves in being everything that exists for
> > every moment it exists. So when the soldiers were nailing God to the
> > cross, He sustained them, the nails, that cross, in existence.
>
> I've always wondered how Aristotle tested that hypothesis. Maybe he
> had a primitive wooden cyclotron?  Homemade Geiger counter?

> And what's the experiment..
I don't think he believed it; Aristotle believed, as you probably do,
that mutable things posses an existential inertia. That having been
brought into existence they go on existing without any sustaining
cause. How would one test this?

Mere empiricism won't do; we'd need /science/.

[Alan Wostenberg]

You say "Evil acts and evil people are". People are things and in some
weaker sense acts are things, but in what sense is evil a thing? Do
you think there is pure evil -- an evil that is /not/ merely
parasitical on good?

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.

[Simon Ewins]

[Alan Wostenberg]

> You say "Evil acts and evil people are". People are things and in some
> weaker sense acts are things, but in what sense is evil a thing? Do
> you think there is pure evil -- an evil that is /not/ merely
> parasitical on good?

Evil is the opposite of good taken to the level of being obscene.

Are you going to suggest why those evils I mentioned are sustained by
God or are we just going to discuss English?

"Each forward step we take we leave some phantom of ourselves behind."
[John Lancaster Spalding]

[xeno]

On Jul 1, 4:42 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ... but...wars...
> are ...over ...
> territory, food...

You might as well stop right there. Doesn't that cover the basics?

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Jul 3, 5:43 pm, Alan Wostenberg <awo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 30, 8:58 pm, "Timothy 1:4a" <canfanor...@gmail.com> wrote:> On Jun 29, 2:34 pm, Alan Wostenberg <awo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Yes. God did create everything. Nor is it a one-time event (that's
> > > Deism not Theism). God conserves in being everything that exists for
> > > every moment it exists. So when the soldiers were nailing God to the
> > > cross, He sustained them, the nails, that cross, in existence.
>
> > I've always wondered how Aristotle tested that hypothesis. Maybe he
> > had a primitive wooden cyclotron?  Homemade Geiger counter?
> > And what's the experiment..
>
> I don't think he believed it; Aristotle believed, as you probably do,
> that mutable things posses an existential inertia.

Hm, not sure. Aristotle's argument was in esse, not in fieri. Not
being apprised of Newton's First Law of Motion, he believed in the
continuous necessity of a Prime Mover.

Maybe you are right. Aristotle did believe that matter is eternal and
had always existed.

> That having been
> brought into existence they go on existing without any sustaining
> cause.  How would one test this?

It cannot be tested. I would also say, and the known unsuccessful
arguments of non-experimental natural philosophers is strong
circumstantial evidence, that it cannot be deduced from logic or first
principles.

> Mere empiricism won't do; we'd need /science/.

If you want to communicate successfully, it's been generations since
you can use the word "science" in that way. The successful natural
philosophers, the one who do experiments and discover things that
allow us to build computers and spacecraft, own it. Science cannot
investigate non-empirical claims.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jul 1, 2:23 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jesus said:  *I am the way, the truth and the life.  Any man who comes to
> me, I will in no way turn away.*
> To have life eternal,

... follow Jesus who did not say that he died in anyone's place?

> I must accept the fact that Jesus died in my place on
> Calvary.

Where does Jesus say "I died in your place on Calvary"? If not, then
you're going to Paul, not Jesus. Does Jesus say "Paul is the way,
truth and life"?

[thea]

Because while Jesus was alive - Israel had not yet entirely rejected HIM as their Messiah.
When Jesus was crucified, Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah.
Gentiles do not go to heaven by themselves, as in this day of the Age of Grace to All,
both Gentiles and Jews can accept Jesus as being God's only Begotten Son.
 

> That the dispensation of the Grace of God given
> to Jews and Greeks (and everyone) had been hidden from the Foundation of the
> Earth.

Ah, so the dispensation of grace was hidden before Adam was created,
eh?

Yes, read, Ephesians 1. 
In order to understand the various dispensations - it is wise to follow four words:
*Foundation of the World* -- there is a *before* and a *after* and a *before*.
The difference between being the Bride of Christ which is the reference Jesus used
in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and being the *Body* of Christ which is
the way St. Paul referred to the Gentiles and Jews in this Dispensation of the
Grace of God.
Differences - that we see are perpendicular to each other - and not parallel.
There are perpendicular knowledge - and parallel knowledge in the Bible.
God lives or dwells in the Praises of His People.  And, so we see St. Paul
saying to the Grace of God Dispensation - that we are to be *Thankful
in all things, because this is the will of God concerning us.*
 

> But, that we who are Christians, had been chosen by God from BEFORE the
> foundation of the earth - and that means all of us were chosen by God from
> BEFORE the foundation of the earth who are living today.

You were chosen a few thousand years before you were born? Then, did
you exist before birth?

I personally believe that when my father planted a seed in my mother - that I
was known by God.
But, I don't believe that this was a personal chosen. 
I believe that God had in mind *before the Foundation of the World* in Genesis 1:2,
that HE would have a people who would be Saved by Grace.
That HE did not tell Israel about the whole plan of salvation to every dispensation
is something that is very interesting when studying the various dispensations
in the Bible.
However, Israel was told that if they did not follow their *God*, that HE would
go to others.
And, because Israel did not accept Jesus as their Messiah - God came to
all of us.  Oh the marvelous matchless Amazing Grace by which you and I
today can have a *know-so* salvation of Ephesians 1.


 

> > > Oh the glorious facts given of life eternal with Jesus Christ in Heaven.
>
> > Is any of these "facts" stated by Jesus himself? Does he say anything
> > like "life eternal with ME in heaven"?
>
> John 3:16 says that *God sent His Son, that whoever, belileves in Jesus will
> have life eternal.*

Is that a statement by Jesus himself?

Jesus started talking to a man of the Pharisees (which believed in life after death), by the name of Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; in John 3:1.
And Jesus is talking with Nicodemus through, I believe, verse 21.
So yes, Jesus, is doing the talking.
 

[thea]

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:27 PM, ranjit_...@yahoo.com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 1, 2:23 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jesus said:  *I am the way, the truth and the life.  Any man who comes to
> me, I will in no way turn away.*
> To have life eternal,

... follow Jesus who did not say that he died in anyone's place?

Read John 14:26 where Jesus says, *But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said unto you.

This Holy Spirit is the *Earnest* or *Down-Payment* of our future inheritance of Ephesians 1 - which is the
*know-so* salvation.

The Holy Spirit indwells in the spirit of the Believer of *God raising His Son, Jesus, from the dead.*

> I must accept the fact that Jesus died in my place on
> Calvary.

Where does Jesus say "I died in your place on Calvary"? If not, then
you're going to Paul, not Jesus. Does Jesus say "Paul is the way,
truth and life"?

St. Paul is an example - St. Paul is not our God.  We worship God the Father in Spirit and in Truth, like
Jesus taught.
However, St. Paul does point out how this Holy Spirit living in us *works* to enable us to do the *will of
the Father in Heaven.*

The dispensations have been so mixed up like the pot of stew in MacBeth - stir it up all together, and
you negate what this dispensation gives us.  Freedom - total freedom to know that our sins our forgiven
and that we are on our way to heaven.

 

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jul 3, 7:41 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:39 PM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com < ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 3, 10:39 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > > > In the NT it is the Dispensation of the Grace of God as St. Paul
> > explains
> > > > > that is for us as Gentiles in
> > > > > this day and age in which we live.
>
> > > > When, and from whom, did St. Paul learn this dispensation?
>
> > > God took him out into the desert and taught him.
>
> > Acts says that Paul experienced a vision of Jesus on his journey to
> > Damascus and lost his sight. His attendants brought him to Damascus.
> > Acts claims that God instructed one Ananias, "a disciple at Damascus",
> > to go to him there. Ananias miraculously cured Paul of his blindness.
> > Acts claims that Paul was filled with the holy spirit and was
> > baptized. He preached Christ in Damascus.
> >http://www.christianorigins.com/pauldamascus.html
> > In this account, where is a desert mentioned? How did Paul learn what
> > to preach in Damascus?

Well?

> > > St. Paul states that God
> > > showed him what had not been foretold to Israel.
>
> > Why did Jesus not teach it to Israel? Did Jesus want Israel to go to
> > hell and only gentiles to go to heaven?

> Because while Jesus was alive - Israel had not yet entirely rejected HIM as
> their Messiah.

I haven't rejected you as my queen either. Why? Because in order for
me to reject you as my queen, you would first need to claim that you
are my queen. In which sermon did Jesus claim to be the audience's
messiah? If none, how was it possible for his audience to reject him
as their messiah.

> When Jesus was crucified, Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah.
> Gentiles do not go to heaven by themselves, as in this day of the Age of
> Grace to All,
> both Gentiles and Jews can accept Jesus as being God's only Begotten Son.

Did Jesus preach this in the 40 days he had on earth after being
resurrected?

> > > John 3:16 says that *God sent His Son, that whoever, belileves in Jesus
> > > will have life eternal.*
>
> > Is that a statement by Jesus himself?
>
> Jesus started talking to a man of the Pharisees (which believed in life
> after death), by the name of Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; in John 3:1.
> And Jesus is talking with Nicodemus through, I believe, verse 21.

So, Jesus wanted only Nicodemus to go to heaven but wanted his
audience on the Mount, the Plain, etc. to go to hell?

> So yes, Jesus, is doing the talking.

Where Sherlock Holmes says "Elementary, my dear Watson", is it a
statement by Sherlock Holmes himself?

[Naila]

God is the only creater and there is no other creater,,and he create
devil "satan" too.
satan is creature of God creation but he Disobey God and he became the
enemy.
that's all.

Naila

On Jun 26, 8:54 pm, clegmeister <clegmeis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> When I debate religion with some of my christian friends they always
> try to convince me that God created everything.
> so firstly I ask them did god creat everything, they answer yes
> secondly I ask does god know everything including past/present/future,
> they answer yes

> thirdly I ask if god created everything then he must have created

> GOOD, they answer yes
> I then say if he created GOOD then he must have created EVIL, they
> answer no?
> they tell me that the devil created EVIL.

> I say but didn't god creat the devil, they say no?

> I then say I thought you said god created everything, this must
> include GOOD/EVIL and the devil

> this is when most christians start back peddling and denying that god
> god would not creat anything that was bad.

> isn't it amazing that when you point out the obvious to the theists
> how much they refuse to believe it.

> my understanding of religous people is that they have lazy brains and

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jun 30, 9:12 pm, Brock <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 26, 1:54 pm, clegmeister <clegmeis...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > I then say I thought you said god created everything, this must
> > include GOOD/EVIL and the devil
>

> Or that God created beings with a limited and bounded moral agency,

> with an obligation of obedience to His divine commands.

Didn't Frankenstein's creator try to do that too?

> Nothing wrong with that. :)

If Frankenstein's creator had succeeded, would there have been nothing
wrong with creating Frankenstein

[thea]

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:05 PM, ranjit_...@yahoo.com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 3, 7:41 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 4:39 PM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com < ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 3, 10:39 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > > > In the NT it is the Dispensation of the Grace of God as St. Paul
> > explains
> > > > > that is for us as Gentiles in
> > > > > this day and age in which we live.
>
> > > > When, and from whom, did St. Paul learn this dispensation?
>
> > > God took him out into the desert and taught him.
>
> > Acts says that Paul experienced a vision of Jesus on his journey to
> > Damascus and lost his sight. His attendants brought him to Damascus.
> > Acts claims that God instructed one Ananias, "a disciple at Damascus",
> > to go to him there. Ananias miraculously cured Paul of his blindness.
> > Acts claims that Paul was filled with the holy spirit and was
> > baptized. He preached Christ in Damascus.
> >http://www.christianorigins.com/pauldamascus.html
> > In this account, where is a desert mentioned? How did Paul learn what
> > to preach in Damascus?

Well?

I guess I need to let you know who St. Paul was.  It is in knowing that he was one of the
most intellectual men of his time.  He had been taught at the feet of one of the most
knowledgeable men in his day.  St. Paul knew the Old Testament and therefore,
when he is writing his epistles, you can see parallel and perpendicular ways of thinking.
You can also see the differences between the way the Hebrew says things or thinks
and the Greek way of expressing thoughts.

St. Paul knew a *know-so* salvation and professed it to the Gentile world of which
he was a part. 

St. Paul learned how the Bible worked in his day, and then tells us how to *work*
it to gain not only salvation, but blessings untold.

St. Paul was inspired by God to write to churches (his epistles) like he did -
they were written for a particular people in a particular place and circumstance.

The book of Romans was written to the Romans - and tells us how to find the
*know-so* salvation, and Ephesians 1 tells us of our place and position
as Gentiles and Jews in this dispensation, in such a way that we can be
set free from what some man is preaching to us in a pulpit when all he can
teach is Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - and leave us wanting more and
never being able to find the *more*.

> > > St. Paul states that God
> > > showed him what had not been foretold to Israel.
>
> > Why did Jesus not teach it to Israel? Did Jesus want Israel to go to
> > hell and only gentiles to go to heaven?

> Because while Jesus was alive - Israel had not yet entirely rejected HIM as
> their Messiah.

I haven't rejected you as my queen either. Why? Because in order for
me to reject you as my queen, you would first need to claim that you
are my queen. In which sermon did Jesus claim to be the audience's
messiah? If none, how was it possible for his audience to reject him

as their messiah.

Luke 13:34 says: *O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets,
and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen
doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35: Behold, your house is left unto you desolate; and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me,
until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.*

And this is where Israel is today -- awaiting the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ the second
time - which is after the battle of Armageddon in Revelations.

This is the rejection that is spoken about in prophecy.


 

> When Jesus was crucified, Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah.
> Gentiles do not go to heaven by themselves, as in this day of the Age of
> Grace to All,
> both Gentiles and Jews can accept Jesus as being God's only Begotten Son.

Did Jesus preach this in the 40 days he had on earth after being
resurrected?

When Jesus was on earth, the only message HE was giving is the Kingdom Message,
which will be fulfilled during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth.
Jesus was preaching the secrets known to man *from* the foundation of the world.
Matthew 13:35 - says *I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which
have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.*

So there is a difference between what Jesus was preaching to Israel and what
St. Paul was preaching for our learning today.
Jesus said:  *from* the foundation of the world.
St. Paul says:  *before* the foundation of the world.

> > > John 3:16 says that *God sent His Son, that whoever, belileves in Jesus
> > > will have life eternal.*
>
> > Is that a statement by Jesus himself?
>
> Jesus started talking to a man of the Pharisees (which believed in life
> after death), by the name of Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; in John 3:1.
> And Jesus is talking with Nicodemus through, I believe, verse 21.

So, Jesus wanted only Nicodemus to go to heaven but wanted his
audience on the Mount, the Plain, etc. to go to hell?

It is necessary to note who is being spoken to, so we can apply the word (Bible)
to our lives *rightly divided*.
Not all things spoken directly apply to me -- I am a woman.  Not all
things spoken to women apply to you -- you I assume are a man.

We only are destroyed if we do not accept the fact that there is a God and Father
of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Our only approach in this day and age to God is
through the Blood of Jesus on the Cross of Calvary.

 

> So yes, Jesus, is doing the talking.

Where Sherlock Holmes says "Elementary, my dear Watson", is it a
statement by Sherlock Holmes himself?

 

--

[TLC]

SLURP.. Jesus lad. Bring forth another tankard o' your best blood
for me christian mates!

By the way, christians created Satan, in the old testament he was a
servant of god. But, may be, the Jews got it wrong and were waiting
for the christians to put their bible right? Or, may be, the
christians mixed in some Greek mythology into their Sky Fairy fable!


n 4 July, 17:00, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:05 PM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at

> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Rolf Schuler]

What's the evidence for what you are saying?

2010/7/4 Naila <shaks...@hotmail.com>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
To post to this group, send email to atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.

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[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jul 4, 11:04 am, Naila <shakshak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> God is the only creater and there is no other creater,,and he create
> devil "satan" too.

Assuming that you are going by the Bible, on which of the 6 days of
creation did God create Satan, and why does Genesis not even fail to
mention the creation of Satan but even fail to mention the name of
Satan?

> satan is creature of God creation but he Disobey God and he became the
> enemy.

At what point in time did Satan disobey God? If Gabriel (Jibreel) too
is a creation of God, is he too capable of disobeying God thereby
becoming an enemy?

> that's all.
>
> Naila

[thea]

Satan became *proud* of what he could do - and decided that he, Satan, would
be lilke the most high God, and God said:  No, you won't and kicked him
out of heaven.
There is a *gap theory* which most of us never knew about until we started
reading theology books - and then we found that there is definitely a *gap*
between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
In Genesis 1:1 the world and universe was created *perfect*.
In Genesis 1:2 we see that the world *was* or should be translated *became*
null and void.
Between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is where the dinosaurs disappeared, and Satan
sinned. 
Knowing that God had to again recreated the world, and that the Bible
is actually only the last 7,000 years of recorded time from Genesis to
Revelation until the *Oscillating Universe Theory* takes place -
keeps our scope and balance to understand that when God said
that all we have to do is believe that HE raised His Only Begotten
Son from the dead to have eternal life with HIM, instead of
forever being in *outer darkness* which Jesus tallks about in
Matthew - is True Christianity.

> that's all.
>
> Naila

[Brock Organ]

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 9:24 PM, xeno <69bla...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 30, 6:12 pm, Brock <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Or that God created beings with a limited and bounded moral agency,
>

> Or limited & bounded beings created a god to imagine their power
> increased to infinity & personified as a separate being.

Humankind is not the measure of all things.

> Now which is more plausible? A perfect being makes imperfect creatures
> OR imperfect creatures imagine a perfect one to compensate for their
> limitations?

The objective nature of reality is independent of a subjective
assessment of plausibility.

Regards,

Brock

[Brock Organ]

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 2:35 AM, clegmeister <clegm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Brock

>
> "Or that God created beings with a limited and bounded moral agency,

> with an obligation of obedience to His divine commands.
>

> Nothing wrong with that. :) "
>

> Why don't you just say mindless zombie slaves

Because I didn't mean it. But why do you so say?

Regards,

Brock

[Brock Organ]

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Steve in Virginia
<chandl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The Bible is not an historical reference.  It is a book of apocryphal
> tales against a loosely sketched out against the backdrop of ancient
> Middle Eastern history.

That's overly simplistic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history

> Where in the OT we have a murdering,
> psychotic monster

Or a Holy and morally exquisite God who justly judges sin, yet offers
mercy and pardon.

> borrowed from the more some of the more merciless
> religions of the ancient Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians, who, in
> the NT,  transmogrifies into a more sedate, reserved and palatable
> demon

Or a Holy and morally exquisite God who justly judges sin, yet offers
mercy and pardon.

What a wonderful Lord!

Regards,

Brock

[Bob T.]

On Jul 8, 2:57 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Steve in Virginia
>

> <chandler2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The Bible is not an historical reference.  It is a book of apocryphal
> > tales against a loosely sketched out against the backdrop of ancient
> > Middle Eastern history.
>
> That's overly simplistic:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history
>
> > Where in the OT we have a murdering,
> > psychotic monster
>
> Or a Holy and morally exquisite God who justly judges sin, yet offers
> mercy and pardon.

Or, of course, a figment of the imagination.

>
> > borrowed from the more some of the more merciless
> > religions of the ancient Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians, who, in
> > the NT,  transmogrifies into a more sedate, reserved and palatable
> > demon
>
> Or a Holy and morally exquisite God who justly judges sin, yet offers
> mercy and pardon.
>
> What a wonderful Lord!

What a vivid imagination!

- Bob T

>
> Regards,
>
> Brock

[Brock Organ]

Why?

Regards,

Brock

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jul 8, 5:57 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Steve in Virginia
>

> <chandler2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The Bible is not an historical reference.  It is a book of apocryphal
> > tales against a loosely sketched out against the backdrop of ancient
> > Middle Eastern history.
>
> That's overly simplistic:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history
>
> > Where in the OT we have a murdering,
> > psychotic monster
>
> Or a Holy and morally exquisite God who justly judges sin, yet offers
> mercy and pardon.
>
> > borrowed from the more some of the more merciless
> > religions of the ancient Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians, who, in
> > the NT,  transmogrifies into a more sedate, reserved and palatable
> > demon
>
> Or a Holy and morally exquisite God who justly judges sin, yet offers
> mercy and pardon.

Suppose there were a judge who justly judges crimes, yet offers mercy
and pardon. (Well, he offers pardons by getting his friend the
President to sign pardons).
Now, what would a day in this judge's courtroom look like?

> What a wonderful Lord!
One would hope to be able to say the same about the judge once you've
painted a plausible scenario of his courtroom.

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Jul 8, 5:52 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Only if your assessment is based on holy books. For the rest of us,
there is a strong correlation.

> Regards,
>
> Brock

[Brock Organ]

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:43 PM, ranjit_...@yahoo.com
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Jul 8, 5:57 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Steve in Virginia
>>
>> <chandler2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > The Bible is not an historical reference.  It is a book of apocryphal
>> > tales against a loosely sketched out against the backdrop of ancient
>> > Middle Eastern history.
>>
>> That's overly simplistic:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history
>>
>> > Where in the OT we have a murdering,
>> > psychotic monster
>>
>> Or a Holy and morally exquisite God who justly judges sin, yet offers
>> mercy and pardon.
>>
>> > borrowed from the more some of the more merciless
>> > religions of the ancient Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians, who, in
>> > the NT,  transmogrifies into a more sedate, reserved and palatable
>> > demon
>>
>> Or a Holy and morally exquisite God who justly judges sin, yet offers
>> mercy and pardon.
>
> Suppose there were a judge who justly judges crimes, yet offers mercy
> and pardon. (Well, he offers pardons by getting his friend the
> President to sign pardons).
> Now, what would a day in this judge's courtroom look like?

Suppose a poster offered a hypothetical scenario, and presumed it as
an adequate match to judge or evaluate God in a specific way. Would
any doubt raised by such a presumption have any bearing on the
discussion?

>> What a wonderful Lord!
> One would hope to be able to say the same about the judge once you've
> painted a plausible scenario of his courtroom.

Why?

Regards,

Brock

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Jul 8, 5:57 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Steve in Virginia
>

> <chandler2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The Bible is not an historical reference.  It is a book of apocryphal
> > tales against a loosely sketched out against the backdrop of ancient
> > Middle Eastern history.
>
> That's overly simplistic:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history

Your citation does not support your position. You should read it and
the pages it links to.

[Brock Organ]

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Timothy 1:4a <canfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Now which is more plausible? A perfect being makes imperfect creatures
>> > OR imperfect creatures imagine a perfect one to compensate for their
>> > limitations?
>>
>> The objective nature of reality is independent of a subjective
>> assessment of plausibility.
>
> Only if your assessment is based on holy books. For the rest of us,
> there is a strong correlation.

Not true. For example, the specific value for the atomic number of
oxygen, the objective truth of the law of non-contradiction, and the
value of the ratio of any circle's circumference to its diameter in
Euclidean space is independent of humanistic plausibility.

Regards,

Brock

[Brock Organ]

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Timothy 1:4a <canfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 8, 5:57 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Steve in Virginia
>>
>> <chandler2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > The Bible is not an historical reference.  It is a book of apocryphal
>> > tales against a loosely sketched out against the backdrop of ancient
>> > Middle Eastern history.
>>
>> That's overly simplistic:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history
>
> Your citation does not support your position.

Sure it does. It makes clear Steve's assertion is simplistic.

Regards,

Brock

[xeno]

On Jul 8, 2:52 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Humankind is not the measure of all things.

That's your subjectivist assertion. I'm only interested in a tangible
who, what, when, where & how.

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Jul 8, 7:21 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:

If the occurrence or non-occurrence of E1 does not affect the
probability of occurrence of E2, then
P(E2 | E1) = P(E2)
and E1 and E2 are said to be independent events.
Otherwise they are said to be dependent events.
http://www.intmath.com/Counting-probability/8_Independent-dependent-events.php

> Regards,
>
> Brock