The Bible Never Says Jesus is God

[Kurt Godel]

The Bible never says Jesus is God. The Catholics invented that centuries later.

 

The only place one can try to twist things into meaning that, is John 1, where it's clearly talking about the Holy Spirit. First being with God in the beginning and second, impregnating Mary. If it's not talking about the Holy Spirit, Genesis 1 is wrong, and that part of John 1 is a paraphrase of Genesis 1. Plus, Jesus is never called the "Word" anywhere else in any Gospel, in or out of the Bible.

 

And there are many places in the Bible where it explicitly says Jesus is NOT God, such as Mark 10...

¹⁷ As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

¹⁸ “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

 After all, Jews are smart people and know their Torah, and it forbids a man having sex with his mother. If Jesus was God, then he "procreated" with his own mother. No Jew of the first century would accept that. It would be guaranteed to drive all observant Jews away from the religion and permanently separate them.

[Foxjazz]

That's who Christians just are. They enjoy the incest. And all that.

[Kurt Godel]

Nah, Christians, at least the ones around now, are wonderful tolerant people. I got the dirt on all the religions, and I know how tolerant they are when they hear what hurts, the truth. What I say to the Christians about Paul, if said equivalently to a Muslim, in a Muslim country, I would get my head chopped off. I get no hostility from the Christians, they are real concerned about me and want to help me. They are as nice as they can be, but it really distressed them, so I don't harp on it, since they are so nice and all.

[Les]

In Zechariah it says that Yahweh (Almighty God) would be sold for 30 pieces of silver and that when Yahweh returns they would look upon him whom they had pierced (crucified and stabbed with a spear) and mourn for him like they would for an only son.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the word [Jesus] and the word was with God and the word was God.

... and the word dwelt among us and we beheld his glory

... John was not the light but came to testify about the light.

John 20

Hey Thomas stop doubting and check this out. Put your finger in my wounds and see that it really is me.

Thomas replied "My Lord and My God" (Literally My one and only Lord and my one and only God.)

 

Revelation 1:7-8

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” [Almighty God]

Revelation 22:12-13

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

...

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

1. Isaiah 44:6
   “This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer [Jesus is the King of Kings], the Lord Almighty [Yahweh] : I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Revelation 22:13

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Col 1

 16 For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 

Phil 2:

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, 
    to the glory of God the Father.

Isaiah 45:23

By myself I [Yahweh] have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.”[f]

Ps102:24 

So I said:
“Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days;
    your years go on through all generations.
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.

How do I put this politely? If you can't see that the Bible is calling Jesus God then, you haven't really studied the Bible.

[lawrey]

          Kurt,
                    Stop your fretting. What the bible says and or how individuals and or religious dogma's interpret it, is a total irrelevance. The words are but formed by the machinations of men.

                   Gods have never been known to exist in fact, and the god of the bible is known to be a decreed god of Armenophis IV (Arkhenaton)... The first mono - god - creator, and accepted
                   by the Hebrew Patriarchs as the god of the Jews, written of in the original Torah, recommended by Hosea, Isaiah I, Micah, and Amos, all story tellers....made prophets to give them
                   some legitimacy.. Up to that time there was a polytheistic system of god/s, which was reinstated after the death of Arkhenaton. No such thing as a god as depicted in the bible is
                   known to exist.

[Trance Gemini]

On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Kurt Godel <passe...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Bible never says Jesus is God. The Catholics invented that centuries later.

Yay! Another person who noticed that fact. Lol.

The biblical Jesus only ever describes himself as the Son of Man.

 

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[Kurt Godel]

Let's start with John 1. That' is the Holy Spirit, not Jesus, unless Genesis 1 is lying. It's the Holy Spirit hovering over the waters, not Jesus. No mention of Jesus.

 

If it meant "Jesus" it would have said "Jesus", and it never mentions the word "Word" again in reference to Jesus (other than the one time later in John 1 where the Word/Holy Spirit becomes flesh by impregnating Mary.)

 

Trust me, no Jew in the last 3200 years would think god impregnated his own mother. It's forbidden. It would never occur to them to say that.

[Kurt Godel]

All that first and last stuff has nothing to do with Jesus being God. He has sayings about the first will be last etc. in the Bible and in first century historical sources and it's you and me, not God.

[Les Ey]

Whoosh. But then that is not surprising because the Bible predicts that people who are not born again just wont get it.

Mat 16:16-17 NIV
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Is 9:6 Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; [i.e. the Messiah/Christ] and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

1 Cor 12:19 NIV
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Mark 61-62 NIV
But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?"

"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

1 Cor 2:14 NIV
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Why did the religious leaders want to stone Jesus?

John 8:58-59 NIV
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Read the following page if you want to understand what is meant by the term First and Last etc.

Look for the sub heading 2. THE SON IS JEHOVAH

http://www.waltermartin.com/article2.html

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[lawrey]

      Les,

              How easily fools are fooled by fools who fool themselves. Before you seek to proselytize to us, it might be better if you learned
              about the origins of those biblical works that fool you. The whole of the NT was rewritten more than once and the Jesus character
               if he existed was certainly NO son of a god as depicted in the NT. Any more that the god of the OT was a god, because there is no
              such thing. History makes it quite clear that the god of the Hebrew Patriarchal Fathers was the god creator of all things.
              The only god creator of all things was the decreed god of Arkhenaton 1375 B.C. It was recommended to The Partriarchs by Hosea,
              Amos, Micah and Isaiah I as the only true god and they accepted and changed its name, which has long since been lost.

               So you see, there is no such thing as the god of the bible. It's all complete Foolery, and you like thousands are fooled.

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[Kurt Godel]

Read the post again, Les, I said it says he is a son of God, but not God. And then you list places where he's a son of God.

 

Not complicated. Find a place where it says he's God, not a son of God.

 

It doesn't exist, Les, you won't find it.

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[Kurt Godel]

No, Lawrey, Akhenaten got the One God thing from the Hebrews, not the other way around. Apparently his high priest and Prime Minister, also in that job under his father, who really started the One God thing, was a Hebrew. Pretty close to the story of Joseph. Even  Hawass says it's possible, and a very risky thing for him to say.

 

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=21951.0

 

95% of the people on earth, get their fundamental belief system from the Hebrews. Christians, Muslims, Ba'hai, communism, modern science, etc. No one gets it from the Egyptians.

[Trance Gemini]

On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 5:14 AM, Les Ey <lesl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Whoosh. But then that is not surprising because the Bible predicts that people who are not born again just wont get it.

Mat 16:16-17 NIV
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus still hasn't said he's the Son of God. That is Simon's interpretation. And even after accepting Simon's 'compliment' he responds by continuing to refer to himself as the Son of Man not the Son of God.

Jesus, later in Matt16 says:

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

 

Is 9:6 Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; [i.e. the Messiah/Christ] and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

1 Cor 12:19 NIV
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Mark 61-62 NIV
But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?"

"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

 

Again Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man in your quote AND the Messiah. Is he correcting those who claim he's the Son of God? It would seem so: "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One "

There are places where the Bible refers to Sons of God (which don't mention Jesus):

Genesis 6:4

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

And note that there are other places where the bible states that ALL men are the sons of god.

Deuteronomy 14:1 You are the children of the LORD your God: you shall not cut yourselves, …

Psalm 82:6,7 I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High…

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[Kurt Godel]

I said in the original post that it says he is the son of God, and the details about athat, but not God.

 

And you give quotes that he was the son of God, like that has something to do with him BEING God. The Bible also says we are all children of the Father. Are we all gods?

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[e_space]

On Sunday, January 12, 2014 2:57:32 PM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

I said in the original post that it says he is the son of God, and the details about athat, but not God.

 

And you give quotes that he was the son of God, like that has something to do with him BEING God. The Bible also says we are all children of the Father. Are we all gods?

no ... females are goddesses ;-^)

[Trance Gemini]

I think you misread what I said Kurt. I said Jesus didn't say he was the Son of God. Ever. Anywhere.

Others did.

When he responds to those comments he refers to himself only as the Son of Man.

THEN I said that the OT calls ALL men, sons of god and provided the bible passages.

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[Kurt Godel]

My sincere apologies, Trance. And a good point.

 

"Son of Man" simply means human being to all Jews at the time and for the previous centuries.

 

It's worth noting, that "magicians" in the Torah/Hebrew Bible occasionally refer to God as "Father". Honi the Circle Maker in the Talmud, and Elisha in the Hebrew Bible for instance. Granted, there's no clear context that indicates they are the only son, but it's always magicians/miracle workers.

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[Les Ey]

What else would I expect an atheist to say? Of course you don't think he is the Son of God.

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[Kurt Godel]

We are all sons of the Living Father. 

[Les Ey]

Whatever Kurt. You will have a hard time convincing me that he did not believe that he was. He was consciously vague in public so that people like you and JWs could listen but "not hear."

And probably because he knew that claiming to be God would get him killed, just as it eventually did.

And on the topic of the Son of Man. Anyone who can put 2 and 2 together should be able to "hear" but I guess Jesus was right about people not believe that "I AM [he]" Greek (EGO EIMI) Hebrew YHWH (Jehovah) an dying in their sins. (John 8:28)

Mark 2:5 ff NIV

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,

"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things?

Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'?

But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the man, 

"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."

He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!

Really what does it take for it to sink in?

Apparently you need to be born again.

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[Kurt Godel]

Hi Lwa, yes, the Romans would definitely instantly kill him for claiming to be God. But they would instantly kill him for most of what he said. "Kingdom" was instant death, far more than claiming to be God, and he mentioned the Kingdom repeatedly.

 

Well, most Christians think he was human in part, and we both agree he was the greatest human that ever walked the earth. There's that.

 

I'm a doubting Thomas. You know, Thomas was a real hero in the early parts of John. Not a bad guy, he just was skeptical about all that stuff.

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[Heretic]

Kurt Godel said "Nah, Christians, at least the ones around now, are wonderful tolerant people."

But this is the point "at least the ones around now." And what is the reason they are nice, I would think it is because they as a religion no longer have any power. In the past when the church had power they always misused and abuser it. The inquisition and the witch hunts are sufficient to point most people in the right direction. As for truth, they have consistently stood in its way, the trial of Galileo Galilei is the most prominent example.

Where they still have significant influence they do harm, In Africa millions have been put at risk by the Catholic Churches insistence that they do not use condoms. Is it just the Catholic Church? A large part of the USA is referred to as the bible-belt and is populated by the 'reformed' churches. These churches attitudes to an atheist in their midst is at first whoopee-do as they have someone to convert. If the atheist is intransigent then what happens? If he is employed then he loses his job, if he runs a business then he has no customers, if he rents a home then he is asked to leave.

Wherever and whenever the churches have real power or influence the misuse and abuse it. Where they have no power, such as present day England, they have to play nice.

Heretic 

[lawrey]

        Les,

                  What god? Which god? where is it?  Answer please. Or for crying out loud sing another silly song.

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[Trance Gemini]

On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 8:29 PM, Kurt Godel <passe...@gmail.com> wrote:

My sincere apologies, Trance. And a good point.

No problem. We're all guilty of that one. I've done it more times than I can count. Lol.

 

 

"Son of Man" simply means human being to all Jews at the time and for the previous centuries.

Exactly and that is one of the indicators in my opinion, that what is now called 'christianity' was simply a messianic jew's interpretation of the Torah during that era. One who was a rabbi and had a small following. 

History would seem to indicate (although it's never a given when we're talking about ancient times) that the Romans did indeed invent Christianity as we know it today under the rule of Constantine. 

It would also seem to indicate that they took the historical character of a particular rabbi and mythologized him to make him fit the model of the Messiah predicted in the OT.

This is an analysis that makes sense to me given what I know of the history although admittedly I'm no expert in ancient historiography.

 

 

It's worth noting, that "magicians" in the Torah/Hebrew Bible occasionally refer to God as "Father". Honi the Circle Maker in the Talmud, and Elisha in the Hebrew Bible for instance. Granted, there's no clear context that indicates they are the only son, but it's always magicians/miracle workers.

Why do you think that's the case? What is the significance of that? Just curious. You have some interesting opinions on this topic.

[Trance Gemini]

Well said Heretic. This is exactly the problem. When the churches had power even a few hundred years ago, the abuses were enormous. Non-believers never dared to identify themselves. 

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[ynot]

On Monday, January 13, 2014 8:15:09 AM UTC+2, Heretic wrote:

Wherever and whenever the churches have real power or influence the misuse and abuse it. Where they have no power, such as present day England, they have to play nice.

And the funny thing is that the Christian God does not come down to earth "as he used to do before" to sort those heretics out and restore the power to the church. Of course the gullibles will immediately claim that it is due to the free will that God gave us. But we all know why God does not come down here don't we?

ynot

[Mike Johnson]

On Monday, January 6, 2014 3:03:02 AM UTC-5, Les wrote:

[Mike Johnson]

Mike replies to Les:

When you start quoting the Old Testament or the Gospel of John in the New Testament  you must shed the
literal or historic thing and mend your soul with a metaphorical understanding of the text.  Why? Because a
non-historical view of scripture yields an interesting  and true understanding of God action in the world.
Thus,  the book of Exodus does not hinge on any Red or Reed Sea splitting in two to allow the Children
of Israel to escape evil Pharaoh's chariots.  It hinges on God's love for all humans and  the central truth
he created none of us to be abject slaves of anyone or anything.  Still it is a nice story and great movie.

In the same way, Jesus did not walk on water or turn gallons of water into the best of wine.  And we do not
need Jesus to baldly equal God.  Modern theologians point out such an equation would render the humanity
of Jesus null and void.  Thus, one modern theologian,  Dominic Crossan, reminds us Jesus was not all
knowing scholar who impressed the temple authorities with his scripture knowledge at 12 years of age.
Rather, as one of Dominic's book title reminds us - Jesus was a marginalized Jewish peasant.  And may
not have been able to read or write,  Nevertheless, he caused many then and now to write many a page centered on
him, his actions and teachings.  Not to mention  music and art both ancient and modern.  And many
films, too.

So modern theologians are advising preachers and their listeners to eject and reject the literal approach to
the Bible and get hooked onto the real spiritual meat encased in its sacred stories.

Yes, taking all scripture as literal historic truth is to cause much head scratching.  And this kind of
head scratching can impede spiritual enlightenment and loss of hair.

On Monday, January 6, 2014 3:03:02 AM UTC-5, Les wrote:

    In Zechariah it says that Yahweh (Almighty God) would be sold for 30 pieces of silver and that when Yahweh returns they would look upon him whom they had pierced (crucified and stabbed with a spear) and mourn for him like they w

        guaranteed to drive all observant Jews away from the religion and permanently separate them.

On Monday, January 6, 2014 3:03:02 AM UTC-5, Les wrote:

In Zechariah it says that Yahweh (Almighty God) would be sold for 30 pieces of silver and that when Yahweh returns they would look upon him whom they had pierced (crucified and stabbed with a spear) and mourn for him like they w

guaranteed to drive all observant Jews away from the religion and permanently separate them.

[Answer_42]

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 4:05:37 PM UTC-5, Mike Johnson wrote:

Mike replies to Les:

When you start quoting the Old Testament or the Gospel of John in the New Testament  you must shed the
literal or historic thing and mend your soul with a metaphorical understanding of the text.  Why? Because a
non-historical view of scripture yields an interesting  and true understanding of God

 

 

Oh, good, so now we know who has the truth about the Bible. Great!

 

Wait, I think I have heard such claims about how to truly interpret the Bible. Let me think... Where did I hear this before?

 

Got it!

 

Every single Christian claims to have the truth.

 

<sigh>

 

[lawrey]

              Mike,

                         "  So modern theologians are advising preachers and their listeners to eject and reject the literal approach to
                           the Bible and get hooked onto the real spiritual meat encased in its sacred stories."

                         That kind of makes a laughing stock of Revelations 22:18-19 Even though the character Jesus who revealed it to John had long since Kicked the bucket and was pushing up the daisies.
                         And what about Deuteronomy 4: 11. 1-2  not to mention Proverbs 30: 5-6. Your  load of Buy-Bull  thumper's, make it up as you go along; How Pathetic? How Unethical? How Deceitful?
                          How you degrade any form of Integrity?   Sacred Stories? What Cods-Wallop!

[Kurt Godel]

Hi Trance!,

Well, Paul, in the 50-60 time period, traveled all over the Roman Empire visiting "Christians" or rather followers of Jesus. They were already there. And Nero blamed the burning of Rome on the Christians, in 64CE.

Now, some think Paul was a Roman agent, and they are probably right. And to that extent, Paul/Rome created Christianity. But Paul had to go abroad to finish off the survivors after he "entered every house" "men and women" and "slaughtered" "put to death" them, "until none were left to preach." He was on his way to Damascus, in the 30's because it has already spread internationally a couple years after the cross.

The historical Jesus as found in the Gospel of Thomas never claims to be a King/Messiah/Christ.

Why Jesus,  Honi the Circle Maker from the Talmud, and the other two big miracle workers Elijah and Elisha called God "Father" has to be old and related to having special powers of healing etc. Jesus in Thomas usually calls God, "Father". A lot more than the Christian Bible, which does it too. That Jesus claims to  heal by the placebo effect. He knew how it worked. Here's the Honi the Circle Maker story from the Talmud, like Jesus, he also says we are ALL children of the Father...

It once happened that they petitioned Choni the Circle-Maker, “Pray that rain should fall.”

Said Choni to them, “Go, bring your Passover ovens indoors, so that they should not dissolve.”

Choni prayed, but no rain fell. What did he do? He drew a circle and stood in middle of it, and said to G‑d: “Master of the Universe! Your children turned to me because I am like a member of Your household. I swear by Your great name that I’m not budging from here until You have compassion on Your children!”

A rain began to drizzle.

Said Choni: “That’s not what I asked for. I asked for rains to fill the cisterns, trenches and reservoirs.”

The rains started coming down in torrents.

Said Choni: “That’s not what I asked for. I asked for rains of goodwill, blessing and generosity.”

A proper rain began to fall. But it continued to fall until the Jews went out of Jerusalem up onto the Temple Mount, because of the flooding caused by the rains. So they came to Choni and said: “Just as you prayed that the rains should fall, now pray that they should go away.” Said he to them: “Go and see if the Stone of Claims1 has dissolved yet . . .”

Shimon ben Shetach sent a message to Choni: “If not for the fact that you are Choni, I would have issued a decree of excommunication against you. But what can I do against you, who unburdens himself before the Almighty and He fulfills your wish, like a child who unburdens himself before his father and his father fulfills his wish . . .”

[Kurt Godel]

Because God in Unknowable?

[Kurt Godel]

John 1, the Word is the Holy Sprit, unless Genesis is lying. It was the Holy Spirit hovering over those waters at the beginning, not Jesus. Later in John 1, the Word/Holy Spirit impregnates Mary. Jesus did not have sex with his own mother.

Let's start there.  

[Amos]

There is no historical Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas - The text simply presents Jesus as some kind of other-worldly spirit guide.

Amos