Did All Golden Rules Come from the Bible?

[Kurt Godel]

Introduction

There is no known case of the Golden Rule, in word or action, before Leviticus of the Torah. A law against stealing or murder isn't the Golden Rule, it's running things smoothly for the predatory goons in charge, who could do both.

 

Before Leviticus, it's all human sacrifice and cannibalism, from the Moloch Human Sacrifice that surrounded the Hebrews to the cannibalism evidence on about half of all human bones more than about 20k years ago.

 

The question is, did all those other cases of the Golden Rule that show up 500-1000 years later, come from the Hebrew Torah?

 

Overview Evidence for the Age of the Torah

 

The oldest physical scrap of the Torah is the Silver Scrolls, 2,600-2,700 years old.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/28/science/28scro.html?_r=0

 

The oldest summary of the Golden Rule of the Torah is 3,000 years old, from Jerusalem, at the time of King David. It is also the oldest alphabetic writing on earth. The Hebrews invented alphabetic writing and the oldest example of it, is the Golden Rule, 3000 years old...

 

"The contents of the text express social sensitivity to the fragile position of weaker members of society. The inscription testifies to the presence of strangers within the Israeli society as far back as this ancient period, and calls to provide support for these strangers. It appeals to care for the widows and orphans and that the king -- who at that time had the responsibility of curbing social inequality -- be involved. This inscription is similar in its content to biblical scriptures (Isaiah 1:17, Psalms 72:3, Exodus 23:3, and others), but it is clear that it is not copied from any biblical text."

 

English translaton of the deciphered text:

 

1' you shall not do [it], but worship the [Lord].

 2' Judge the sla[ve] and the wid[ow] / Judge the orph[an]

 3' [and] the stranger. [Pl]ead for the infant / plead for the po[or and]

 4' the widow. Rehabilitate [the poor] at the hands of the king.

 5' Protect the po[or and] the slave / [supp]ort the stranger.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107183037.htm

 

There's also the Samaritan Torah evicence, still rather separate, but much less so, 2,300 years ago where we have copies of both. And the Samaritan Cohen gene splitting at 2,700 years.

 

The Torah is older than 3000 years, 3,250, the age of Moses, is about right.

 

Other Claims to the Golden Rule

 

Few claims are before 2,600, and those that are, aren't even remotely the Golden Rule. Usually some law about not stealing or not murdering that any society has to have. Some even claim the rather harsh "Eye for an Eye" is the Golden Rule, when it's NOT.

 

How Could they all have gotten it from the Hebrews at 2,600 years ago?

 

We know there were established Hebrew colonies in India 2,500 years ago. That's what we have solid evidence for. In fact, the sudden appearance of the Golden Rule seems to coincide with the arrival of the Hebrews and their Torah/Golden rule they took with them everywhere they went.

 

Summary

 

Some escaped slaves, educated literate ones at that, wrote a set of laws, that only escaped slaves, who had suffered would write. A long list of moral laws about treating the poor, not just the Golden Rule, always including supporting strangers among them, "because at one time, we were strangers in Egypt." And as this strong cultural group, with their Written Laws prospered because of it, they spread out upon the earth, taking their slave morality Golden Rule with them, a gift to the human race.

[e_space]

who gives a fuck?

[e_space]

further more, if and when you ever start treating others anywhere close to the admonitions of the golden rule, you may get some interest ... if you don't walk to talk, shut the fuck up ... okay? ;-^)

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:25:27 AM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

[Drafterman]

Did All Golden Rules Come from the Bible?

No.

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:25:27 AM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

[Kurt Godel]

Know of an  exception?

No.

[e_space]

as i said ... who gives a fuck?

[Drafterman]

Confucius.

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 1:06:33 PM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

[Kurt Godel]

FAIL, Confucius was 500-1000 years after the Torah. China was crawling with Torahs for him to read by then.

[Marc]

On Friday, 7 March 2014 15:24:43 UTC+2, Kurt Godel wrote:

FAIL, Confucius was 500-1000 years after the Torah. China was crawling with Torahs for him to read by then.

China crawling in Torahs? Evidence please. 

[Kurt Godel]

The Cochin Jews arrived in India 2,500 years ago and settled down in Kerala as traders.^[6]

The traditional account is that traders from Judea arrived in the city of Cochin, Kerala, in 562 BCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India

That's the first we have evidence for. Not the first.  The Torah arrival caused the Golden Rule to finally show up. Totally absent for the thousands of years of history preceding it's arrival.

[Kurt Godel]

We also know, amazingly, that part of the Lost Tribes are the Pashtun of Afghanistan/Pakistan. They have always claimed it, Afghanistan has Hebrew names for it's cities. The genetic evidence is disputed. Not Jews, Hebrews, deported by the Assyrians over 2,700 years ago. So we also know the Torah was in Pakistan over 2,700 years ago.

http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/genewatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=237

http://www.simchajtv.com/movie-quest-for-the-lost-tribes/

[Kurt Godel]

And the Chinese record diplomats from Rome visiting shortly after Jesus. An emissary from a great power, not some Hebrew merchants 700 years before.

[Kurt Godel]

India had a rich trade with China when those Jewish merchants were first documented showing up 2,600 years ago. Why wouldn't a good businessman do business with China too?

[Marc]

1) India is not china.

The first we have evidence for is all we have evidence of, to conjecture further is to make stuff up with the imagination - you seem happy to do so, but the rest of us will just go with EVIDENCE, nothing more is tolerable. There is no evidence here that Confucius is reading Torah's or that they were crawling through out China... Especially considering that during the era all such documents were handwritten - which took an long time and people would not have just carried them around and given them willy-nilly to Chinese people. The first evidence of Jews in China by the way 7th to 8th century. I'll stick to evidence, you can make stuff up to support your ridiculous 'crawling throughtout China' before the existence of a printing press and modern logistics nonsense.     

[Kurt Godel]

India had regular trade with China. Is that  in dispute?

Jewish merchants in India were so stupid they didn't do business with all that Chinese commerce?

It's documented the Torah was in India at LEAST 2,562 years ago and in Pakistan over a century earlier. That it can be documented that far into the past is a miracle and far from implying it didn't happen earlier, it makes it  almost certain.

This may come as a shock but we don't have documented evidence for everything that's accepted as history by historians. Historians know paper rots and memory fades.

[e_space]

On Friday, March 7, 2014 10:14:48 AM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

India had regular trade with China. Is that  in dispute?

Jewish merchants in India were so stupid they didn't do business with all that Chinese commerce?

It's documented the Torah was in India at LEAST 2,562 years ago and in Pakistan over a century earlier. That it can be documented that far into the past is a miracle and far from implying it didn't happen earlier, it makes it  almost certain.

This may come as a shock but we don't have documented evidence for everything that's accepted as history by historians. Historians know paper rots and memory fades.

makes one wonder why some (read "you") are totally hung up on history ... 

[Alexia Beane]

But can it be documented as being in China?

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[e_space]

maybe ... who's askin?  ;-^p

On Friday, March 7, 2014 11:00:38 AM UTC-5, Lexie wrote:

But can it be documented as being in China?

On Mar 7, 2014 10:14 AM, "Kurt Godel" <passe...@gmail.com> wrote:

India had regular trade with China. Is that  in dispute?

Jewish merchants in India were so stupid they didn't do business with all that Chinese commerce?

It's documented the Torah was in India at LEAST 2,562 years ago and in Pakistan over a century earlier. That it can be documented that far into the past is a miracle and far from implying it didn't happen earlier, it makes it  almost certain.

This may come as a shock but we don't have documented evidence for everything that's accepted as history by historians. Historians know paper rots and memory fades.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 10:07:20 AM UTC-5, Marc wrote:

On Friday, 7 March 2014 15:33:49 UTC+2, Kurt Godel wrote:

The Cochin Jews arrived in India 2,500 years ago and settled down in Kerala as traders.^[6]

The traditional account is that traders from Judea arrived in the city of Cochin, Kerala, in 562 BCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_India

That's the first we have evidence for. Not the first.  The Torah arrival caused the Golden Rule to finally show up. Totally absent for the thousands of years of history preceding it's arrival.

1) India is not china.

The first we have evidence for is all we have evidence of, to conjecture further is to make stuff up with the imagination - you seem happy to do so, but the rest of us will just go with EVIDENCE, nothing more is tolerable. There is no evidence here that Confucius is reading Torah's or that they were crawling through out China... Especially considering that during the era all such documents were handwritten - which took an long time and people would not have just carried them around and given them willy-nilly to Chinese people. The first evidence of Jews in China by the way 7th to 8th century. I'll stick to evidence, you can make stuff up to support your ridiculous 'crawling throughtout China' before the existence of a printing press and modern logistics nonsense.     

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[Marc]

Trade - Moron - is with merchants, not holy people, and trade in goods between Indian intermediaries is not the same as giving the Chinese a holy book - which would have been extremely expensive and handwritten. Furthermore within the Jewish tradition such texts are only allowed to be written by a narrow group, and the Jews had no (and still have) particular interest in converting gentiles (which the Chinese fall into) to their views. Given this AND the lack of evidence the claim 'China was crawling with Torah' is clearly rubbish. 

Also the Chinese are historically not interested in the views of everyone else (as a result of Confucius' thinking) and they would have had no interest in the barbaric texts of Jewish people. The Chinese really did look down on everyone else (and still might). This is so trivially obvious that only Moron's cannot see it.    

[Lexie Beane]

Hahah, oh you know, just your worst nightmare (a.k.a. The girl next door) xD 

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[e_space]

i thought her name was ashley! hold on, i'll go check! ;-^)

[Drafterman]

1. The Torah is not the Bible. The Bible, specifically, refers to the combination Old and New Testaments.
2. This does not demonstrate that he actually had access to any Torahs or that he derived any concept from the Torah.

[Lexie Beane]

Oh you devil :P 

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[e_space]

wags tail ... polishes horns ;-^)

[Loopflanger]

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 7:25:27 AM UTC-8, Kurt Godel wrote:

There is no known case of the Golden Rule, in word or action, before Leviticus of the Torah.

That doesn't seem to be the case.

"An early example of the Golden Rule that reflects the Ancient Egyptian concept of Maat appears in the story of The Eloquent Peasant, which dates to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040–1650 BC): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do thus to you."^{[16][discuss]} An example from a Late Period (c. 664 BC – 323 BC) papyrus: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."^[17]"

"The Code of Hammurabi (1780 BC)^[10] dealt with the reciprocity of the Lex talionis in ways such as limiting retribution, as they did concepts of retribution (literally "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth")."

"In Mahābhārata, the ancient epic of India, comes a discourse where the wise minister Vidura advises the King Yuddhiśhṭhira thus, “Listening to wise scriptures, austerity, sacrifice, respectful faith, social welfare, forgiveness, purity of intent, compassion, truth and self-control - are the ten wealth of character (self). O king aim for these, may you be steadfast in these qualities. These are the basis of prosperity and rightful living. These are highest attainable things. All worlds are balanced on dharma, dharma encompasses ways to prosperity as well. O King, dharma is the best quality to have, wealth the medium and desire (kāma) the lowest. Hence, (keeping these in mind), by self-control and by making dharma (right conduct) your main focus, treat others as you treat yourself.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Don't you have something else better to do besides promote cultural chauvinism & misinformation?

 

[Loopflanger]

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:06:33 AM UTC-8, Kurt Godel wrote:

Know of an  exception?

Yes. It's predated by Egyptian, Sanskrit, & Babylonian traditions. So now what?

[Loopflanger]

On Friday, March 7, 2014 5:24:43 AM UTC-8, Kurt Godel wrote:

FAIL, Confucius was 500-1000 years after the Torah. China was crawling with Torahs for him to read by then.

You fail to draw any necessary connection between Confucius & Judaism. You don't consider more likely influences. 

Here's a Timeline: (Note the Upanishads predate the Torah.)

13th to 9th century BCE

1367 BCE

Reign of Akhenaten in Ancient Egypt. Akhenaten is sometimes credited with starting the earliest known monotheistic religion. Akhenaten's monotheistic beliefs are said to be the precursor of the monotheistic doctrines of the Abrahamic religions.

1300–1000 BCE

The "standard" Akkadian version of the Epic of Gilgamesh was edited by Sin-liqe-unninni.

1250 BCE

The believed time of the Hebrew exodus from Egypt.

1200–600 BCE

The Upanishads (Vedic texts) get composed which contain the earliest emergence of some of the central religious concepts of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism

1200 BCE

The Greek Dark Age begins.

1200 BCE

Olmecs build earliest pyramids and temples in Central America.^[21]

950 BCE

The Torah begins to be written, the core texts of Judaism and foundation of later Abrahamic religions.

877–777 BCE

Parshva, 23rd Tirthankar of Jainism.^{[22][23][24][25][26][27]}

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion

[John Stockwell]

>FAIL, Confucius was 500-1000 years after the Torah. China was crawling with Torahs for him to >read by then.

- show quoted text -

Yet, where is your evidence of this? Judaism was not a proselytizing religion. Nor is there any other Judaic aspect to the Confucian, or any other Asian philosophy or religion of the period, for that matter.

-John

[Kurt Godel]

Jewish merchants have Torah's. Why on earth would you think they didn't? And apparently the Jews in India ran with the rulers it says, so why not run with those of influence in China?

And get a clue, the Jews had missionaries before Jesus/Great Revolt. They tried like heck to convert people. Jews before Jesus/Great Revolt were very different and far more diverse than today's Jews. Sadducees, for instance, were something else entirely.

And those around the Hebrews have always been impressed by the Torah. It was a big deal to the Med. long before Jesus.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 11:46:15 AM UTC-5, Marc wrote:

[Kurt Godel]

The Torah is the first five books of the Bible. The oldest part. The part where the Golden Rule shows up for the very first time in the history of the known Visible Universe.

Glad to help.

[Kurt Godel]

It's idiot nonsense tripe that it appears in "the eloquent peasant". I don't care what some sub-cretin says, I defy you to show me where it is in it. It's just some sub-cretin running his ignorant mouth. You can find numerous copies in 5 seconds with google to check for yourself. Why didn't you before you quoted such a lying moron?

And I pointed out in Post 1 that "An Eye for an Eye" isn't the Golden Rule it's the opposite. The Golden Rule doesn't have you taking out people's eyes. This isn't rocket science.

Did I miss any other silly crap? No Indian version before the Torah either. The oldest date ever given is about 800BCE.

[Kurt Godel]

No it isn't moron, which is why you can't produce an exception. Just some anonymous sub-cretin saying so.

[Kurt Godel]

I drew the timeline in detail, moron, India by at least 562BCE, Pakistan by at least 700BCE. Jewish merchants in India doing trade a century before Confucius said that. India had a massive trade with China. Those Jewish merchants didn't want to make any money trading with China? China didn't have any products or markets they would be interested in?

The point is, Confucius first says it, the first Chinese case, exactly when one would expect the Torah to show up in China.

It sure never occurred to them for the thousands of years preceding it.

[Kurt Godel]

FALSE, John, Jews had missionaries before Jesus/Great Revolt. They were very different than they are today. One of the reasons Jews sometimes give for that is that they don't want to be killed. Converting people in Christian countries was very dangerous.

[Kurt Godel]

For instance google real quick...

Maximillion writes:
<< I have read that the Jews were not always a religion without our
missionaries in search of converts. At what time in history did Jews try
actively converting the population around them, and what were the
circumstances surrounding this? For how long of a period in history?
Thanks for your answers.>>

I have heard from Rabbi Berel Wein's history tapes tapes that there was
extensive conversions to Judaism taking place in Roman times shortly after
the churban - destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. When Jews went into
exile to Rome the gentiles saw how superior Judaism was to paganism and
began converting. When Christianity appeared, gerut to Judaism slowed
because Christianity demanded much less than Judaism. Eventually more
women than men converted because of the difficulty of undergoing brit
milah, circumcision.

Rav Wein's idea is born out by gerim such as Onkelos from the Roman world
that we find in the Talmud.

http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/torah-forum/vol3/0823.html

Although the activity of Jewish Missionaries in Roman society caused Tiberius to banish them in 19CE. but they returned and and Jewish religious propaganda resumed and was maintained ever after the destruction of the Temple

http://books.google.com/books?id=2kSovzudhFUC&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq=%22jewish+missionaries%22+history&source=bl&ots=0cCpfYdHJ8&sig=zJsvjrFCKp8QXSMd2_0H6wKzLsA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fIsaU7_AHsrskQfqmoGgBQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22jewish%20missionaries%22%20history&f=false

Thousands more. Historical Jesus, by Crossan and Introduction to the New Testament by Davies are excellent books with all the details.

[Kurt Godel]

The Golden Rule isn't just central to the Torah/Written Law and the historical Jesus, it's even more central to the Oral Law, just as important to the Jews, which non-Jews are totally oblivious to. And there's no one in it, making comments, more important than Hillel...

Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a

[His disciples qu]estioned him [and s]aid, "How [should we] fast [and how] should we [pray,] and how [should we do charitable deeds a]nd what [food law should we] observe?" Jesus said, "[Do not lie and that which] you [hate], do not do [because everything is evident before t]he tru[t]h. [For there is nothing hi]dd[en that will not be made clear.]" P.Oxy 654.32-40 [Older than any scrap of Mark, Matthew, Luke or Paul, 1000 years older than Josephus.]

It's the first thing a Jew would say, when asked about his religion, then or now, here or in China. It's all about the Golden Rule.

Followers of Jesus too.

[Amos]

Duh! Not everything is freely available on the internet!

Now if you want to see it for yourself, then you are going to have to buy the book, translated by R.B. Parkinson, Professor of Egyptology at the University of Oxford.

[Marc]

Look clearly you are too much of a MORON to think imaginatively about history. So here, go get your bible and write out the first five books by hand, and see how big the books get in terms of taking up space and how long it takes. Jewish merchants today with modern printing presses don't all have a copy of the Torah. 

So, Moron, the Torah then is hand written object that is very large (given that Torah's are additionally pretty because they are religious works or art as well). The Indian merchant is not going to carry a large heavy Torah to South east asia to trade to give it to someone else who then takes it up into china. Look, dummy, merchants then as now maximize space for profitability and carrying a fat, heavy scroll with frilly bits on a long trip - for another people - ain't gonna happen... unless they are paid to do.

Now Jews in China means the Torah is getting into china on the backs of non-Jews... 

Dumb, Dumb, de-Dumb are you.        

[Kurt Godel]

A wealthy businessman Jew didn't have a copy of the Torah? Comical. I could copy one in a weekend, scribes were cheap and common. By the time of Jesus even poor people were constantly sending letters, paying a scribe to do it. We have tens of thousands of letters from poor people from one Egyptian garbage dump.

So much for the poverty/illiteracy of Jews argument.

[Marc]

Copy the first five books of the bible in a weekend. Go for it - you'll fail because you have know idea how difficult it is!  

I never spoke about poverty - You are too dumb to see that - I spoke about maximizing space for profits.

I also said rates of illiteracy were much higher (and they were). Scribes were not a dime a dozen Dummy.

You are too stupid to read.

Dumb, Dumb, de-Dumb, you are Dumb

And every time you respond you give further evidence thereof MORON

[Kurt Godel]

Ok, you're ignorant that scribes were cheap and even poor people could hire them and that we have tens of thousands of examples from one Egyptian garbage dump.

And think a Torah won't fit on a boat. Take too much room on the boat. When a Torah is the most important thing on earth to a Jew.

Anyone that can read and write can copy a Torah in a weekend, take a week and you'd have a pretty good copy.

[Marc]

Egypt is not at stake, dummy, Judaism is and specifically the Torah!

The Jewish scribes used the following process for creating copies of the Torah and eventually other books in the Tanakh.

1. They could only use clean animal skins, both to write on, and even to bind manuscripts.
2. Each column of writing could have no less than forty-eight, and no more than sixty lines.
3. The ink must be black, and of a special recipe.
4. They must say each word aloud while they were writing.
5. They must wipe the pen and wash their entire bodies before writing the most Holy Name of God, YHVH, every time they wrote it.
6. There must be a review within thirty days, and if as many as three pages required corrections, the entire manuscript had to be redone.
7. The letters, words, and paragraphs had to be counted, and the document became invalid if two letters touched each other. The middle paragraph, word and letter must correspond to those of the original document.
8. The documents could be stored only in sacred places (synagogues, etc.). 
9. As no document containing God's Word could be destroyed, they were stored, or buried, in a genizah.

 

Note 8, dummy! This makes them getting to China impossible, MORON. Or merchants having their own copy impossible as well, MORON.

[Kurt Godel]

No, moron that's the modern Masoretic version. Torah's weren't done that way, in fact at the time of the DSS the Jewish Torah was as much like the Samaritan Torah as it is today's Torah. The Jews tried to freeze the evolution of the Torah around 500-800CE and those are the rules for that modern version where they pore over every character and can't have any mistakes or corrections.

A quick writer might be able to copy one in a day.

[e_space]

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 7:27:43 AM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

Ok, you're ignorant that scribes were cheap and even poor people could hire them and that we have tens of thousands of examples from one Egyptian garbage dump.

And think a Torah won't fit on a boat. Take too much room on the boat. When a Torah is the most important thing on earth to a Jew.

Anyone that can read and write can copy a Torah in a weekend, take a week and you'd have a pretty good copy.

how can anyone have a good copy of BS, unless of course they adore and worship BS, such as you do?

[Loopflanger]

On Friday, March 7, 2014 6:56:30 PM UTC-8, Kurt Godel wrote:

Jewish merchants have Torah's.

The "golden rule" in China is already a feature within Confucianism. (Confucius, 551-479 BCE). "There is an oral tradition that the first Jews immigrated to China through Persia following the Roman Emperor Titus's capture of Jerusalem in 70 CE. A large number of Jews emigrated from Persia during the reign of Emperor Ming of Han (58-75 CE).<sup>[9]".  You got a 500 year discrepancy to account for. It's a good thing you're a demagogue or other wise you would have to account for the facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_China#Origins</sup>

"Most scholars agree that a Jewish community has existed in Kaifeng since the Northern Song Dynasty (960–1127), though some date their arrival to the Tang Dynasty (618-907) or earlier.[1"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews

[Kurt Godel]

Let's see now, after repeatedly pointing out the age of Confucius, you proudly point out the age of Confucius.

Isn't that special?

And all that evidence of being in India as merchants a century before and the Pasto/Lost Tribes 3 centuries before in Pakistan and the constant commerce between India and China, and the inevitability after being there for at least a century doing business, it might occur to them to do business with all those Chinese ships in the port etc. That all just went right by you, because you have cut and paste from wiki.

Forum atheists.

[Kurt Godel]

For instance, a current Jewish Torah, is dead identical to a Torah from 800CE. Not a word, not a letter, is different, 0, not one. They have ornate systems for checking that they all absolutely dead perfect.

But the Dead Sea Scrolls (Or the Septuagint) differ from it in about 4000 places. There was a wide variation in Torahs at the time, the same effort wasn't made copying them correctly, it was pretty open. That's what that current Masoretic version was trying to correct, to freeze it, stop the evolving.

The Dead Sea Scrolls differ from the Samaritan Torah, the other Torah that split 3000 years ago from the Jewish one, in only about 5000 places, about the same as the current Jewish version. They have a common source, and it's long before about 2,300 years ago, when we have complete copies of both.

[Marc]

Note - dumb, dumb - I used a used an extract to make my claims about the rules, research has revealed nothing of the nonsense you have been claiming. It would not because you are a MORON.

You idiocy means that nothing you claim without detailed citation will be seen as anything but the claims of a dumb, dumb.

For example, MORON: An error of a single letter, ornamentation, or symbol of the 304,805 stylized letters that make up the Hebrew Torah text renders a Torah scroll unfit for use, hence a special skill is required and a scroll takes considerable time to write and check. So much for it can be done in a day MORON.

Go for it write 304 805 stylized letters in a weekend I dare you to try... STUPID! So much for basic math skills - 212 Calligraphy letters a minute for every minute of a 24 hour period. Or even 106 such letters for every minute of 48 hour period. MORON claims it can be done in a day, showing he is a MORON.  

[Kurt Godel]

Comical ignorance from monkey brains, the DSS are different in 4000 places from today's Jewish Torah, and they didn't throw them away.

Too complicated? Befuddled?

[Marc]

Moron shows he is a Moron, because he cannot acknowledge that Moron is wrong about the 'write it in a day' claim, or the 'China was crawling with Torah' nonsense.  

[Kurt Godel]

Anyone can copy the first five books of the Bible in a weekend. Normal people that is, yes, those with the brains of a monkey would find it difficult.

[Marc]

Moron shows himself to be a MORON by being unable to accept evidence. The fastest typist in the world does 212 words per minute, typing at that speed constantly all day she would just do the Torah. Humans write much slower than we type. MORON is clearly a MORON. 

[Kurt Godel]

212 words/minute is about 6 hours, moron. I realize no forum atheist on earth can do elementary algebra, but that's first grade arithmetic. Skip that class?

So, exactly like I said, a weekend's work, a good job in a week and a sloppy job maybe in a day.

But heck, no rich Jewish merchant, could afford to pay a scribe for a few days, to make him a copy of the most important thing on earth to him.

Forum atheists.

[e_space]

ah well ... monkey's wrote the book in the first place ... 

[Marc]

MORON is too stupid to understand that there is only 1 person who can type this fast 212 - ergo being the world record. Most professionals type at around 80 wpm, which they can sustain for, at most, around 50 fifty minutes. 

Also MORON is too stupid to understand that humans write much slower than this, especially if writing in calligraphy (as all Torah were). This is because, MORON, writing a letter is a more complex motion than touching a key on a keyboard. I realize this is too difficult for MORON, but please try use the minimal brain available to you to do some mathematical reasoning. Too much for MORON do, I understand. 

MORON in the era at stake we hand wrote everything, this took considerable time and effort. Of course MORON cannot understand these simple things indicating he is a MORON.

MORON is a moron because he demonstrates he is incapable of grasping the fact that Torah written in a weekend is unfeasible due to limitations of time and speed of writing. Do you get that MORON. No, because you are a moron.  

[Marc]

Some more simple maths for MORON. A human whilst copying writes a 22 words per minute (when not writing calligraphy, and saying out each word aloud). If they wrote for two days without taking any breaks, for any reason - including getting tired, eating, going to the toilet, or correcting mistakes - they would write 63 360 words. This would be 16 487 words short of the Torah's length. Is MORON still insisting it can be done on a weekend, or has MORON grasped simple arithmetic, because algebra is clearly too advanced. Well MORON?  

On Sunday, 9 March 2014 21:02:07 UTC+2, Kurt Godel wrote:

[Marc]

Also dumb, dumb... (This is from a Jewish cite) The Torah used in a synagogue today is written exactly the same way it was written 3 300 years ago. So much for dumb, dumb's claims about the laws prescribing how a Torah is written listed earlier being wrong. MORON is still too stupid to see MORON is wrong. 

On Sunday, 9 March 2014 19:28:11 UTC+2, Kurt Godel wrote:

[Kurt Godel]

It's still a weekend, Monkey Brain, and a wealthy merchant can afford a low paid scribe, or 50 of them every weekend of the year, and could mass produce the things for his Chinese customers/converts like Confucius. The trick now is to look for more Torah ideas in his writings, granted by far the most important was the Golden Rule, and the very first thing we'd see showing up.

[Kurt Godel]

That site is wrong, the DSS differ in about 4000 places, ALL of them. The Septuagint too.

[Marc]

Moron is clearly still a moron, demonstrating lack of thinking and showing that he is a Moron, well done Moron. 'Its still a weekend' a claim without empirical basis makes moron a moron. Well done moron, continue on in being a Moron.

[Marc]

Moron must give evidence, and citations for this, including why the Jewish site is wrong - otherwise MORON is just making stuff up... A real moron thing to do.

[Kurt Godel]

I already told you why the site was wrong. The Masorite Jewish edition was frozen in place starting around 800CE, and the Jewish Torah's before that differed in thousands of places. Jews and Christians and monkey brained forum atheists that want to believe that is why the Dead Sea Scrolls were kept secret for half a century until Robinson and Eisenman leaked it to the world without permission. They would have kept them secret forever.

Here's an apologist trying to claim the DSS are very similar, but admitting 5% is different EVEN IN THE MOST SIMILAR OF THE VARIOUS DSS TORAHS.

5% of 80,000 words is 4000 words. Need help with the elementary arithmetic?

 when scholars compared the MT of Isaiah to the Isaiah scroll of Qumran, the correspondence was astounding. The texts from Qumran proved to be word-for-word identical to our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent of variation consisted primarily of obvious slips of the pen and spelling alterations (Archer, 1974, p. 25).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=357

The Samaritan Torah is different in several fundamental ways. Different 10 Commandments etc. Yet, the DSS only differs from the Samaritan version in only about 5000 places. They are about as close to the rather different Samaritan Torah, despite being the Jewish version with the Jewish 10 Commandments etc.

The further you go back in time, the more the Jewish Torah becomes like the Samaritan Torah, and there's still a big gap, 2,300 years ago, when we have copies of both.

[Kurt Godel]

Reduced to claiming it would take the slave/scribe working for the wealthy businessman 3 days, not 2 to knock one out.

That's progress.

[Marc]

MORON is still not doing his research because MORON is a moron. 

It took a sofer (Jewish scribe, had to be Jewish... because Hebrew letters) a year and half to produce a new Torah... So much for three days MORON.

 

Also, MORON, this was a HOLY BOOK to those who wrote and 'paid for it' there is no evidence that this was 'cheap'. Until MORON produces evidence, with citations, that JEWISH SCRIBES were cheap MORON is making stuff up. P.S. because MORON would not understand this, letters from Egypt would not count as evidence of cheap JEWISH scribes... Not would letters, in general, tell us anything about the production of Torah, but MORON is to dumb, dumb to understand this.  

Is MORON ready to make any more moron claims?

[Kurt Godel]

Ok the arrested organ grinder's monkey insists on ignoring the facts, tediously presented, that they did NOT obsess over it at the time. Deliberate willful ignorance. Nothing that can be done for it.

[e_space]

oh i don't know ... how about a "brain" transplant? ... i know a whole head transplant probably won't be attractive to you, seeing how much you drool over your reflection in the mirror ... you are truly "fascinating" kurtsy ... to yourself that is  ;-^)

[Kurt Godel]

It's the much stronger personality. Not like I haven't seen it before. Can't think about anything else, can you?

[e_space]

huh??? 

[Drafterman]

This does not demonstrate that Confucius got his idea from the Bible. Pleas try again.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 9:58:03 PM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

The Torah is the first five books of the Bible. The oldest part. The part where the Golden Rule shows up for the very first time in the history of the known Visible Universe.

Glad to help.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 1:23:18 PM UTC-5, Drafterman wrote:

1. The Torah is not the Bible. The Bible, specifically, refers to the combination Old and New Testaments.
2. This does not demonstrate that he actually had access to any Torahs or that he derived any concept from the Torah.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 8:24:43 AM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

FAIL, Confucius was 500-1000 years after the Torah. China was crawling with Torahs for him to read by then.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 8:07:52 AM UTC-5, Drafterman wrote:

Confucius.

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 1:06:33 PM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

Know of an  exception?

No.

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 12:36:33 PM UTC-5, Drafterman wrote:

Did All Golden Rules Come from the Bible?

No.

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:25:27 AM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

Introduction

There is no known case of the Golden Rule, in word or action, before Leviticus of the Torah. A law against stealing or murder isn't the Golden Rule, it's running things smoothly for the predatory goons in charge, who could do both.

 

Before Leviticus, it's all human sacrifice and cannibalism, from the Moloch Human Sacrifice that surrounded the Hebrews to the cannibalism evidence on about half of all human bones more than about 20k years ago.

 

The question is, did all those other cases of the Golden Rule that show up 500-1000 years later, come from the Hebrew Torah?

 

Overview Evidence for the Age of the Torah

 

The oldest physical scrap of the Torah is the Silver Scrolls, 2,600-2,700 years old.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/28/science/28scro.html?_r=0

 

The oldest summary of the Golden Rule of the Torah is 3,000 years old, from Jerusalem, at the time of King David. It is also the oldest alphabetic writing on earth. The Hebrews invented alphabetic writing and the oldest example of it, is the Golden Rule, 3000 years old...

 

"The contents of the text express social sensitivity to the fragile position of weaker members of society. The inscription testifies to the presence of strangers within the Israeli society as far back as this ancient period, and calls to provide support for these strangers. It appeals to care for the widows and orphans and that the king -- who at that time had the responsibility of curbing social inequality -- be involved. This inscription is similar in its content to biblical scriptures (Isaiah 1:17, Psalms 72:3, Exodus 23:3, and others), but it is clear that it is not copied from any biblical text."

 

English translaton of the deciphered text:

 

1' you shall not do [it], but worship the [Lord].

 2' Judge the sla[ve] and the wid[ow] / Judge the orph[an]

 3' [and] the stranger. [Pl]ead for the infant / plead for the po[or and]

 4' the widow. Rehabilitate [the poor] at the hands of the king.

 5' Protect the po[or and] the slave / [supp]ort the stranger.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107183037.htm

 

There's also the Samaritan Torah evicence, still rather separate, but much less so, 2,300 years ago where we have copies of both. And the Samaritan Cohen gene splitting at 2,700 years.

 

The Torah is older than 3000 years, 3,250, the age of Moses, is about right.

 

Other Claims to the Golden Rule

 

Few claims are before 2,600, and those that are, aren't even remotely the Golden Rule. Usually some law about not stealing or not murdering that any society has to have. Some even claim the rather harsh "Eye for an Eye" is the Golden Rule, when it's NOT.

 

How Could they all have gotten it from the Hebrews at 2,600 years ago?

 

We know there were established Hebrew colonies in India 2,500 years ago. That's what we have solid evidence for. In fact, the sudden appearance of the Golden Rule seems to coincide with the arrival of the Hebrews and their Torah/Golden rule they took with them everywhere they went.

 

Summary

 

Some escaped slaves, educated literate ones at that, wrote a set of laws, that only escaped slaves, who had suffered would write. A long list of moral laws about treating the poor, not just the Golden Rule, always including supporting strangers among them, "because at one time, we were strangers in Egypt." And as this strong cultural group, with their Written Laws

...

[Loopflanger]

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 6:07:28 PM UTC-8, Kurt Godel wrote:

Let's see now, after repeatedly pointing out the age of Confucius, you proudly point out the age of Confucius.

You act as if what you're purporting here isn't disputed by the facts about China or India. The Golden Rule is already present in the Mahabharata. That's apparently prior to any influence you want to attribute elsewhere. How do you account for all these discrepancies that challenge your pet theory here? The idea of reciprocity is probably been with human beings since they been in trees. If you're hell bent to ascribe a Middle Eastern influence onto everything & everywhere,  what about "The Eloquent Peasant which is dated to the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (c. 2040–1650 BCE): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do."^[7] "

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Ethic_of_reciprocity.html


 

[Kurt Godel]

ONE MORE TIME MORON, THE GOLDEN RULE ISN'T IN THE ELEQUENT PEASANT, IT'S YOUR FILTHY LIE AND EVERYONE HERE CAN GOOGLE IT IN 5 SECONDS AND VERIFY THAT IN 30 SECONDS BY READING THE DAMN THING. WHAT YOU OR YOUR FELLOW MORON THINKS IS IN IT DOESN'T MATTER.

It's not just the breathtaking stupidity and ignorance, it's the dead set determination to stay totally ignorant at all costs, not matter what.

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style

...

[Amos]

Duh!

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OiEV2iVV_d0C&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=%22act+for+him+who+acts+for+you%22&source=bl&ots=aLxpwK6fNs&sig=EoW6AWWq4qqIjMz71NejyOCJcE0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CqYeU__eOJGHhQf-_IGYDw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22act%20for%20him%20who%20acts%20for%20you%22&f=false

<a onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~achaney%2Ftmve%2Fwiki100k%2Fdocs%2FEthic_of_reciprocity.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFYCcDuCQjL7IebjHw1F5uG2PP25w';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~achaney%2Ftmve%2Fwiki100k%2Fdocs%2FEthic_of_reciprocity.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFYCcDuCQjL7IebjHw1F5uG2PP25w';return true;" href="https:/

...

[Amos]

And here you can cross-reference with the original hieroglyphics!

Specifically pages 30 and 73

http://mjn.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/egyptian/texts/corpus/pdf/Peasant.pdf

[e_space]

kurtsy! take a chill pill or twelve and go sit on a bag of ice in the corner ... you're losing your cool man, not that you ever had any  ;-^)

<a onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~achaney%2Ftmve%2Fwiki100k%2Fdocs%2FEthic_of_reciprocity.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFYCcDuCQjL7IebjHw1F5uG2PP25w';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~achaney%2Ftmve%2Fwiki100k%2Fdoc

...

[Kurt Godel]

Nope, nothing there.

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:00:43 AM UTC-4, Amos wrote:

Duh!

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OiEV2iVV_d0C&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=%22act+for+him+who+acts+for+you%22&source=bl&ots=aLxpwK6fNs&sig=EoW6AWWq4qqIjMz71NejyOCJcE0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CqYeU__eOJGHhQf-_IGYDw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22act%20for%20him%20who%20acts%20for%20you%22&f=false




On Tuesday, 11 March 2014 01:15:46 UTC, Kurt Godel wrote:

ONE MORE TIME MORON, THE GOLDEN RULE ISN'T IN THE ELEQUENT PEASANT, IT'S YOUR FILTHY LIE AND EVERYONE HERE CAN GOOGLE IT IN 5 SECONDS AND VERIFY THAT IN 30 SECONDS BY READING THE DAMN THING. WHAT YOU OR YOUR FELLOW MORON THINKS IS IN IT DOESN'T MATTER.

It's not just the breathtaking stupidity and ignorance, it's the dead set determination to stay totally ignorant at all costs, not matter what.

On Monday, March 10, 2014 5:54:53 PM UTC-4, Loopflanger wrote:

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 6:07:28 PM UTC-8, Kurt Godel wrote:

Let's see now, after repeatedly pointing out the age of Confucius, you proudly point out the age of Confucius.

You act as if what you're purporting here isn't disputed by the facts about China or India. The Golden Rule is already present in the Mahabharata. That's apparently prior to any influence you want to attribute elsewhere. How do you account for all these discrepancies that challenge your pet theory here? The idea of reciprocity is probably been with human beings since they been in trees. If you're hell bent to ascribe a Middle Eastern influence onto everything & everywhere,  what about "The Eloquent Peasant which is dated to the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (c. 2040–1650 BCE): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do."^[7] "

<a onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~achaney%2Ftmve%2Fwiki100k%2Fdocs%2FEthic_of_reciprocity.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFYCcDuCQjL7IebjHw1F5uG2PP25w';return true;" onclick="this.href='<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q%5C75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~achaney%2Ftmve%2Fwiki100k%2Fdocs%2FEthic_of_reciprocity.html%5C46sa%5C75D%5C46sntz%5C0751%5C46usg%5C75AFQjCNFYCcDuCQjL7IebjHw1F5uG2PP25w';return" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q%5C75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~achaney%2Ftmve%2Fwiki100k%2Fdocs%2FEthic_of_reciprocity.html%5C46sa%5C75D%5C46sntz%5C0751%

...

[Kurt Godel]

Cross reference them all you want it's a filthy lie that it's the Golden Rule. It's about getting punished for lying to the all-powerful king.

<a onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~achaney%2Ftmve%2Fwiki100k%2Fdocs%2FEthic_of_reciprocity.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFYCcDuCQjL7IebjHw1F5uG2PP25w';return true;" onclick="this.href='<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q%5C75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~achaney%2Ftmve%2Fwiki100k%2Fdocs%2FEthic_of_reciprocity.html%5C46sa%5C75D%5C46sntz%5C0751%5C46usg%5C75AFQjCNFYCcDuCQjL7IebjHw1F5uG2PP25w';return" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.goo

...

[e_space]

lol ... you're spinning out of control kurtsy boy

[Kurt Godel]

There's always hope someone with a room temperature IQ will wander by. You never know. 

[e_space]

ah well ... its something to aspire to anyway ... keep trying  ;-^)

[Kurt Godel]

Yeah, you got it bad alright. Do my words dance in front of your eyes as you try to go to sleep?

[Kurt Godel]

[Barton Introduction] A remarkable appreciation of the rights of the common people is revealed in this story, which has come down to us in copie made before 1800 B.C. The principle part of the story is given below.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/1800egypt-peasant.asp

The poem entitled ‘The Eloquent Peasant’ (the inspiration behind the name of my blog) tells the story of a peasant whose only possessions are stolen by a wealthy official and his subsequent articulate pleas for justice, which move even the pharaoh.

http://www.eloquentpeasant.com/

The irony of the plot, and of the situation (the contrast between the social status of the peasant and his elaborate discourse), were part of the appeal to the original élite audience. The text is a questioning of social and divine justice.

https://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/aes/p/papyrus_with_part_of_the_tale.aspx

 At the heart of the Tale is a series of nine pleas by a wronged peasant to an Egyptian judge to do justice (ma’at). The Tale contains interesting analogies for justice—justice is like sailing a ship, going on a hunt, akin to the judgment of souls, or participating in the harmony of the cosmos. The Tale addresses themes such as the relationship between power, vengeance, and punishment and justice, and the relationship between justice and reward (reciprocity) in this world and in the next. It also addresses a problem chronic as long as we go about this world under Adam’s shadow—the delay and the corruption of justice and law

http://www.harris-greenwell.com/HGS/TheTaleOfTheEloquentPeasant

That took 60 seconds, I timed it, and none mention the Golden Rule, because it's not even REMOTELY related to the Golden Rule.

Where is the atheist forum with room temperature IQ's? There has to be one, because they sure don't go here. 

[John Stockwell]

>No it isn't moron, which is why you can't produce an exception. Just some anonymous >sub-cretin saying so.

Yet, you have not shown that it was impossible for those other cultures to have figured out the Golden Rule, themselves. Particularly since you haven't shown any other Judaic elements.

In short, you have hypothesized Torah diffusionism, but have not shown that this hypothesis holds up.

-John

[John Stockwell]

>FALSE, John, Jews had missionaries before >Jesus/Great Revolt. They were very different than they are today. One of the reasons Jews >sometimes give for that is that they don't want to be killed. Converting people in Christian >countries was very dangerous.
- show quoted text -

What is your evidence of this, your assertion?

[e_space]

lol ... nah ... more like before i toss my cookies ... but you got it close  ;-^)

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 7:29:46 PM UTC-4, Kurt Godel wrote:

Yeah, you got it bad alright. Do my words dance in front of your eyes as you try to go to sleep?

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 4:50:48 PM UTC-4, e_space wrote:

ah well ... its something to aspire to anyway ... keep trying  ;-^)

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 4:33:39 PM UTC-4, Kurt Godel wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-l

...

[Chris Jones]

I really hate to show up here and all of my first batch of posts happen to be exclusively addressing your contributions.  I'm not picking on you, really.... That said,

This doesn't appear to be true.  I had been aware for some time that versions of the Golden Rule have been repeated in cultures that predate the ancient Hebrews -- most notably a negative version, "don't do to others those things which you do not want them to do to you".  Curious as to how much this predated the biblical admonition, I had a look and found this page on Wikipedia which nicely lays out a timeline and various usages in a number of cultures.

To put it in proper context, the oldest written portion of the biblical text would be the J source, dating generously (as Richard Elliott Friedman places it) to the 9th or 10th century BCE, right around the time of Solomon.  Other scholars date it later.  Some of this derives from oral tradition which is somewhat older.  A few poetic bits in the pentateuch and Joshua and Judges (the Song of the Sea, the Song of Deborah, etc) go back (according to Frank Moore Cross Jr. in "Studies in Ancient Yahwistic Poetry") to the 1200s BCE.  The first clear enunciation of the Golden Rule in the biblical text would be Jesus suggesting that this is the culmination of the entirety of the writings of the OT prophets.  Among those, we do have the passage in Leviticus which isn't quite this but can arguably apply as such.  That passage and most of the remainder of Leviticus is the Priestly source, dating to either the time of Hezekiah (not terribly long before the exile) or during / after exile, depending on whether you go with Friedman or the bulk of OT scholarship.  

A quick review of the history of this sentiment reveals that several civilizations had repeated this over 1,000 years before the Priestly source and hundreds to a thousand years before the oldest of the biblical sources (even including those oral poetic bits).  

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:25:27 AM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

Introduction

There is no known case of the Golden Rule, in word or action, before Leviticus of the Torah. A law against stealing or murder isn't the Golden Rule, it's running things smoothly for the predatory goons in charge, who could do both.

 

Before Leviticus, it's all human sacrifice and cannibalism, from the Moloch Human Sacrifice that surrounded the Hebrews to the cannibalism evidence on about half of all human bones more than about 20k years ago.

 

The question is, did all those other cases of the Golden Rule that show up 500-1000 years later, come from the Hebrew Torah?

 

Overview Evidence for the Age of the Torah

 

The oldest physical scrap of the Torah is the Silver Scrolls, 2,600-2,700 years old.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/28/science/28scro.html?_r=0

 

The oldest summary of the Golden Rule of the Torah is 3,000 years old, from Jerusalem, at the time of King David. It is also the oldest alphabetic writing on earth. The Hebrews invented alphabetic writing and the oldest example of it, is the Golden Rule, 3000 years old...

 

"The contents of the text express social sensitivity to the fragile position of weaker members of society. The inscription testifies to the presence of strangers within the Israeli society as far back as this ancient period, and calls to provide support for these strangers. It appeals to care for the widows and orphans and that the king -- who at that time had the responsibility of curbing social inequality -- be involved. This inscription is similar in its content to biblical scriptures (Isaiah 1:17, Psalms 72:3, Exodus 23:3, and others), but it is clear that it is not copied from any biblical text."

 

English translaton of the deciphered text:

 

1' you shall not do [it], but worship the [Lord].

 2' Judge the sla[ve] and the wid[ow] / Judge the orph[an]

 3' [and] the stranger. [Pl]ead for the infant / plead for the po[or and]

 4' the widow. Rehabilitate [the poor] at the hands of the king.

 5' Protect the po[or and] the slave / [supp]ort the stranger.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107183037.htm

 

There's also the Samaritan Torah evicence, still rather separate, but much less so, 2,300 years ago where we have copies of both. And the Samaritan Cohen gene splitting at 2,700 years.

 

The Torah is older than 3000 years, 3,250, the age of Moses, is about right.

 

Other Claims to the Golden Rule

 

Few claims are before 2,600, and those that are, aren't even remotely the Golden Rule. Usually some law about not stealing or not murdering that any society has to have. Some even claim the rather harsh "Eye for an Eye" is the Golden Rule, when it's NOT.

 

How Could they all have gotten it from the Hebrews at 2,600 years ago?

 

We know there were established Hebrew colonies in India 2,500 years ago. That's what we have solid evidence for. In fact, the sudden appearance of the Golden Rule seems to coincide with the arrival of the Hebrews and their Torah/Golden rule they took with them everywhere they went.

 

Summary

 

Some escaped slaves, educated literate ones at that, wrote a set of laws, that only escaped slaves, who had suffered would write. A long list of moral laws about treating the poor, not just the Golden Rule, always including supporting strangers among them, "because at one time, we were strangers in Egypt." And as this strong cultural group, with their Written Laws prospered because of it, they spread out upon the earth, taking their slave morality Golden Rule with them, a gift to the human race.

[Kurt Godel]

Nothing is impossible in the Quantum Theory Universe John. Things even escape from Black Holes constantly.

That for thousands of years they never came up with it, until the Jew arrived, strongly indicates they didn't come up with it themselves.

And it showing up, in proper sequence, radiating out from Israel, India before China and so on is also evidence.

[Kurt Godel]

I already produced it John, it's elementary knowledge for anyone that knows history or knows how to use Google. Yes I will go fetch it for you and help you with that.

[Kurt Godel]

I produced this for John, who repeatedly asks for the same damn thing every couple days, like a demented organ grinder's monkey on meth, turning the crank.

And if I don't go fetch it for the deliberately lying moron atheist, it will spew it's filthy little moron lies because it's all they have. Deliberate lies.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 10:22:52 PM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

For instance google real quick...

Maximillion writes:
<< I have read that the Jews were not always a religion without our
missionaries in search of converts. At what time in history did Jews try
actively converting the population around them, and what were the
circumstances surrounding this? For how long of a period in history?
Thanks for your answers.>>

I have heard from Rabbi Berel Wein's history tapes tapes that there was
extensive conversions to Judaism taking place in Roman times shortly after
the churban - destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. When Jews went into
exile to Rome the gentiles saw how superior Judaism was to paganism and
began converting. When Christianity appeared, gerut to Judaism slowed
because Christianity demanded much less than Judaism. Eventually more
women than men converted because of the difficulty of undergoing brit
milah, circumcision.

Rav Wein's idea is born out by gerim such as Onkelos from the Roman world
that we find in the Talmud.

http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/torah-forum/vol3/0823.html

Although the activity of Jewish Missionaries in Roman society caused Tiberius to banish them in 19CE. but they returned and and Jewish religious propaganda resumed and was maintained ever after the destruction of the Temple

http://books.google.com/books?id=2kSovzudhFUC&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq=%22jewish+missionaries%22+history&source=bl&ots=0cCpfYdHJ8&sig=zJsvjrFCKp8QXSMd2_0H6wKzLsA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fIsaU7_AHsrskQfqmoGgBQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22jewish%20missionaries%22%20history&f=false

Thousands more. Historical Jesus, by Crossan and Introduction to the New Testament by Davies are excellent books with all the details.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 10:10:59 PM UTC-5, Kurt Godel wrote:

FALSE, John, Jews had missionaries before Jesus/Great Revolt. They were very different than they are today. One of the reasons Jews sometimes give for that is that they don't want to be killed. Converting people in Christian countries was very dangerous.

On Friday, March 7, 2014 8:00:55 PM UTC-5, John Stockwell wrote:

>FAIL, Confucius was 500-1000 years after the Torah. China was crawling with Torahs for him to >read by then.

- show quoted text -

Yet, where is your evidence of this? Judaism was not a  proselytizing religion. Nor is there any other Judaic aspect to the Confucian, or any other Asian philosophy or religion of the period, for that matter.  

-John

[Loopflanger]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 6:15:46 PM UTC-7, Kurt Godel wrote:

ONE MORE TIME MORON, THE GOLDEN RULE ISN'T IN THE ELEQUENT PEASANT,

In essence,  it's the same thing. It's all about reciprocity.


 

...

[Kurt Godel]

It's about not doing what the King says, gets you punished and doing what the king says gets you rewarded.

That's like saying doing what the king says is following the Golden Rule, or putting someone's eye out with the "eye for an eye" is following the Golden Rule because they are reciprocity.

Eye for an eye is NEVER considered the Golden Rule when it appears in the Torah, it's always used by moron forum atheists to show how the Torah does the exact opposite of the Golden Rule.

When normal human beings, which excludes forum atheists say "Golden Rule" they don't mean putting someone's eye out.

[Alexia Beane]

Okay, my curiosity is getting the best of me.... how do you figure that things can escape from black holes and what exactly would be able to escape it?

In my understanding, black holes swallow light matter and even time itself.

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[Kurt Godel]

Black Holes are General Relativity. The other great pillar of all science is the Quantum Theory, which most physicists think is more important. All those things you hear about, "string theory" etc. are an attempt to combine the two, but so far, all are failures. To do GR you have to pretend QT doesn't exist and vice versa.

The Quantum Theory says there is no objective reality to anything, when you aren't looking, nothing is real, and not even then in the details.

So, you can't say a person or an electron is inside the Black Hole, since there's no reality to it's existence and it escapes. That radiation of things escaping is called Hawking Radiation and is what made him famous, other than his courage.

Turns out, all Black Holes will eventually evaporate away.

Google "Hawking Radiation" for instance for all the facts.

On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:40:01 PM UTC-4, Lexie wrote:

Okay, my curiosity is getting the best of me.... how do you figure that things can escape from black holes and what exactly would be able to escape it?

In my understanding, black holes swallow light matter and even time itself.

On Mar 12, 2014 10:12 PM, "Kurt Godel" <passe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nothing is impossible in the Quantum Theory Universe John. Things even escape from Black Holes constantly.

That for thousands of years they never came up with it, until the Jew arrived, strongly indicates they didn't come up with it themselves.

And it showing up, in proper sequence, radiating out from Israel, India before China and so on is also evidence.

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 9:12:52 PM UTC-4, John Stockwell wrote:

>No it isn't moron, which is why you can't produce an exception. Just some anonymous >sub-cretin saying so.

Yet, you have not shown that it was impossible for those other cultures to have figured out the Golden Rule, themselves. Particularly since you haven't shown any other Judaic elements.

In short, you have hypothesized Torah diffusionism, but have not shown that this hypothesis holds up.

-John

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[John Stockwell]

<I produced this for John, who repeatedly asks >for the same damn thing every couple days, like a demented organ grinder's monkey on >meth,'turning the crank.

>And if I don't go fetch it for the deliberately lying moron atheist, it will spew it's filthy little moron >lies because it's all they have. Deliberate lies.

<irrelevant stuff about Jews in the Roman period deleted >

I repeat, where is your evidence supporting the notion that Confucius took his version of the Golden Rule from the Jews?

So far all we have are your assertions, your insults, and your arrogance.

Put up or shut up.

-John

[Kurt Godel]

"Proof" only exists in mathematics. The word has no meaning in science or history.

Yeah, I know, eternally mysterious, eternally unknowable to you, I might as well be speaking Greek.

And I already answered just answered that moron, like I just pointed out the Jewish Missionaries AGAIN moron.

It' seems all you know is asking the same thing over and over and over, like a demented organ grinder's monkey on crack, turning the crank, and totally ignoring the answer each time.

There just HAS to be a forum with room temperature Atheists, because there's sure none here.

[e_space]

On Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:47:30 AM UTC-4, Kurt Godel wrote:

"Proof" only exists in mathematics. The word has no meaning in science or history.

Yeah, I know, eternally mysterious, eternally unknowable to you, I might as well be speaking Greek.

nah, just keep speaking pig kurtish ... you know, the language that you are currently using to alienate yourself from EVERYONE here? 

[Chris Jones]

Regarding The Eloquent Peasant, it isn't clear that this doesn't have anything to do with the Golden Rule.  

An equally quick search has a number of sources, including some academic, which do think that it is an early formulation of the golden rule, as the text apparently includes this:

"Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do thus to you."

Some dispute the translation, but many others do not.

To say conclusively that this has nothing to do with the Golden Rule, you would need to be claiming to possess (1) an excellent knowledge of Old Kingdom Egyptian writing and language, and (2) a copy of the story in that original language, and (3) more scholarly credibility than those who have those two things at their disposal who do translate it as such, or the ability to authoritatively identify those scholars who go with this translation as being more correct than those who propose an alternative.

Or, if you were to agree with the above translation or consider it as a credible possibility, you would need to argue that "Do to the doer the cause that he do thus to you" doesn't mean substantially the same as "do unto others as you would have them do to you", which would be a bold assertion.  

I don't see that there is any possibility of arguing that this "definitely" has "nothing to do with" the Golden Rule.  

...

[Chris Jones]

This isn't the complete text of the story -- some bits were excised.  

http://www.rostau.org.uk/ep/EPAlign/Peasant/guest90.html#end

http://mjn.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/egyptian/texts/corpus/pdf/Peasant.pdf

...and others.  Something like the Golden Rule does appear to be in at least half of the translations, as I've said.

...

[Kurt Godel]

Only that one pinhead (and forum atheists) think it's the Golden Rule. If that's the Golden Rule, never lying to the King is the Golden Rule. Never lying to the King is NOT what I or Leviticus is talking about.

Yes, people were punished for lying to the King, long before Leviticus, no doubt about that.

...

[Kurt Godel]

Nope, no Golden Rule in there, which of course,  is why you didn't quote it, just your deliberate lies.

That's it  huh? Your only trick, deliberate lies, one after the other? You know nothing else?

...

[Kurt]

 

Do All Golden Rules Come from the Torah/Bible?

 

You shall neither take revenge from nor bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:18

 

Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a

 

His disciples questioned him and said, "How should we fast and how should we pray, and how should we do charitable deeds and what food law should we observe?" Jesus said, "Do not lie and that which you hate, do not do because everything is evident before the truth. For there is nothing hidden that will not be made clear."

P.Oxy 654.32-40

 

For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open.

Mark 4:22

 

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Luke 6:31

 

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 7:12

 

 

Introduction:

 

The Golden Rule is not only fundamental to the Samaritan, Jewish, and Christian religions, it’s fundamental to atheist morality, such as it exists. Not only does the Golden Rule define and measure Good and Evil, it occasionally enforces it. And here’s the good part, it breaks the symmetry between Good and Evil, based on pure logic, and it does it on the side of Good.

 

When looking at the oldest examples of the Golden Rule, and separating the wheat from the chaff, it soon becomes clear, Leviticus is the oldest, and the Golden Rule has been central to the Hebrews since at least 1000BCE, since we have it in writing.

 

This isn’t surprising, what is surprising, is that the first occurrences of the Golden Rule seem to radiate out from Israel, and at about the first time one could expect the first Hebrew merchants/missionaries to have arrived. Did Confucius say he got it from his Jewish acquaintances? No, but the first Jews arrived about that time, give or take a century or two.

 

What was the world like before that? Human sacrifice and cannibalism. All the tribes surrounding Israel, for at least 10,000 years, practiced child/human sacrifice. The Bible talks about it a lot. So does the Talmud. And approaching half the bones of humans over about 40k years ago show signs of cannibalism.

 

Experience teaches there are several subjects that need to be addressed,

1. How old is the Torah/Leviticus?

2. How old are the other oldest examples?

3. When did the first Hebrews/Jews arrive?

4. Did the Hebrews/Jews have Torah’s with them? And did they really have missionaries?

Each will be addressed under a separate heading…

 

 

How Old is the Torah/Leviticus?

 

The Hebrews invented alphabetic writing. It’s that writing, that respect for writing, particularly the Torah that has made them what they are and what helped them survive for over 3000 years under some rather harsh conditions.

 

The Samaritan-Jewish Evidence

 

There are two absolutely certain Hebrew groups on earth, the Samaritans and the Jews. They have their own Torah’s, which are very similar. The genetics of the Cohen gene show they split about 2,700 years ago, as their traditions say, and the written record of the Assyrians who destroyed the Samaritan Israel describe in detail  And that Cohen gene itself, ,the common branch, is 3,400 years old

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Shen2004.pdf

 

The Dead Sea Scrolls, disagree with the current Masoretic Jewish Torah in about 4000 characters, and the Samaritan version in about 5000 characters. Despite being the Jewish version, on the important differences, in the details it’s about as Samaritan asJewish/Christian. The further back one goes in time, the more the Jewish/Christian Torah becomes the same as the Samaritan version. Samaritans are even more observant to the Torah than the most Orthodox Jew. It’s all they have, their holy books stop there.

 

The two Torah’s sure seem to have split about the same time as the genetics, sometime over 2,700 years ago. But the Samaritans never left Israel, they’ve always been there,it’s the Jews that headed out into the World. And the Samaritans were slaughtered because of it, and only a few hundred remain. But there are two Torah’s not one, and the Samaritan version is not inferior.

 

Archeological Evidence

 

Many, if not most top academic experts used to think the Torah was written after the Babylonian captivity in the 500’s BCE. That they sacrificed their children and worshipped many gods and never came from Egypt. That the Jews got all that morality of the Torah, including the Golden Rule, from the sophisticated Babylonians. Paper rots, lots of guess work. Then they found the Silver Scrolls, 100 years older than Babylon, in the 600’s BCE with the “Priestly Benediction”

 

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

May the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious unto to you.

May the Lord look upon you with kindness, and give you peace.

Numbers: 6:23-27

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketef_Hinnom

 

Ok, so the Torah is older than Babylon, but not much older and where’s the morality? Then they found the oldest alphabetic writing on earth, ancient Hebrew, on a piece of pottery, 1000BCE, and in Jerusalem at the time of David of all things. And what is on it? A summary of the moral laws of the Torah, from the Golden Rule, including the unusual being kind to strangers among them part, “because at one time they were strangers in Egypt.” It’s the morality of escaped slaves, educated ones that could read and write…

 

…The contents of the text express social sensitivity to the fragile position of weaker members of society. The inscription testifies to the presence of strangers within the Israeli society as far back as this ancient period, and calls to provide support for these strangers. It appeals to care for the widows and orphans and that the king -- who at that time had the responsibility of curbing social inequality -- be involved. This inscription is similar in its content to biblical scriptures (Isaiah 1:17, Psalms 72:3, Exodus 23:3, and others), but it is clear that it is not copied from any biblical text.

 

English translation of the deciphered text:

 

1' you shall not do [it], but worship the [Lord].

 2' Judge the sla[ve] and the wid[ow] / Judge the orph[an]

 3' [and] the stranger. [Pl]ead for the infant / plead for the po[or and]

 4' the widow. Rehabilitate [the poor] at the hands of the king.

 5' Protect the po[or and] the slave / [supp]ort the stranger.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107183037.htm

 

There’s more, you could write a book, but worth noting “Moses” means “Son of God” in Egyptians and only Egyptian royalty got the name. “Ramses” is “Ra-Moses” “Son of Ra”. “Moses” doesn’t name the god he is the son of, because there is only One God. Hebrews for thousands of years, as far back as history goes, thought it meant something else entirely. If they contrived to give him an Egyptian Royalty name, it was long before Babylon. There was someone named “Moses” that was somehow Egyptian royalty, that only believed in One God. And the 1200’s BCE, on the Exodus timeline, is about right. Did he write at least part of it? Who knows, why not?

 

 

How Old are the Other Oldest Examples:

 

Amazingly, with the possible exception of India, there are no examples before the 600’s BCE. India may go as far back as 800BCE.

 

But there are no shortage of claims to the contrary, a couple of the most popular are dealt with here.

 

Eye for an Eye

Eye for an Eye is older than 1200’s BCE. But its nonsense to claim putting your neighbor’s eye out is the Golden Rule of Leviticus. After all, it’s in the Torah, and no one has ever claimed it’s the Golden Rule there, it’s the favorite example for the exact opposite, often in context of condemning the Torah/Bible for its cruelty.

 

The Eloquent Peasant

Like “Eye for an Eye” it’s called the Golden Rule, because both involve the notion of “reciprocity”. And not even remotely the same idea as Leviticus. It’s a simple story of a poor man that tells the king the truth and a rich man that lies to the King and the King, the guy with the power, rewards the person that tells him the truth and punishes the man that lies to him. Yep, that one” is in all cultures alright. Lie to the guy with the power and you get punished. If THAT’s the Golden Rule, it’s older than walking on two feet. Monkeys do that.

 

The oldest are near Israel, with perhaps India, not the closest, being perhaps the oldest, and Confucius in the 500’sBCE the latest to show up. Surely that’s before the Hebrews started showing up. Don’t bet the ranch...

...to be continued...