Usage of "Minus".
Daniel Swan
Is it proper to say 'Then you minus 5 from 10', in place of the
word 'subtract?
David Harmon
On 22 Jul 1997 21:43:07 GMT, ds...@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan)
wrote:
>Is it proper to say 'Then you minus 5 from 10', in place of the
>word 'subtract?
No, it's not proper. "Minus" is not a verb.
It's not that rare an error, though.
What part of speech is "minus"?
Fred Bland
David Harmon wrote:
>
> On 22 Jul 1997 21:43:07 GMT, ds...@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan)
> wrote:
> >Is it proper to say 'Then you minus 5 from 10', in place of the
> >word 'subtract?
>
> No, it's not proper. "Minus" is not a verb.
> It's not that rare an error, though.
Yes it is that rare.
Ralph M Jones
If it walks like a verb and talks like a verb then it must be a verb. Or
is there a special word for verbed prepositions? Does it happen in other
than slang? e.g. "off", "out".
--
There never was a horse that couldn't be rode
Nor a man that couldn't be throwed.
- Old Rodeo Saying
N.Mitchum
Daniel Swan wrote:
----
> word 'subtract?
No, it isn't. Where have you come across this usage? Trying to
win an argument with a classmate?
--
[Post &Mail]
--- NM
Ross Smith
David Harmon wrote:
>
> On 22 Jul 1997 21:43:07 GMT, ds...@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan)
> wrote:
> >word 'subtract?
>
> It's not that rare an error, though.
>
> What part of speech is "minus"?
Um ... Conjunction, I guess.
--
Ross Smith ............................. <mailto:ross....@nz.eds.com>
Internet and New Media, EDS (New Zealand) Ltd., Wellington, New Zealand
"I'm as interested as anybody else in all the things no decent
person would be interested in." -- Ashleigh Brilliant
Brian J Goggin
On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:21:08 GMT, s.m...@merde.ix.netcom.com (Polar)
wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:01:03 GMT, Te...@ix.netcom.com (Terry) wrote:
>
>>On 22 Jul 1997 21:43:07 GMT, ds...@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Is it proper to say 'Then you minus 5 from 10', in place of the
>>>word 'subtract?
>>
>>Millions of people say it; they are all under eight years of age,
>
>Mentally, maybe; not chronologically. That one, and "times it"
>instead of "multiply" are used by people long out of school.
>
>I'd still like to hear from people who might know whether the kids
>pick up that usage from their *teachers*.
>
I was surprised to find that Small Son and his colleagues (aged 8 - 9)
use the phrase "times tables" to refer to addition and subtraction
tables as well as to multiplication. (They haven't got to division
yet.)
bjg
Terry
Robert Lieblich
Fred Bland wrote:
>
> David Harmon wrote:
> >
> > On 22 Jul 1997 21:43:07 GMT, ds...@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan)
> > wrote:
> > >Is it proper to say 'Then you minus 5 from 10', in place of the
> > >word 'subtract?
> >
> > It's not that rare an error, though.
>
And if it wasn't rare, it wouldn't be an error?
Ya know what, I'm going to expand on my apparently smart-ass question.
If good usage is (as I like to say) a mistake everyone makes, why is
there such a thing as a commonplace mistake, like the apostrophe in the
possessive it[']s or "ain't" with the third person singular "She ain't .
. .")? At what point do so many people make a mistake that it turns
into usage? Does the extent of the resistance matter? Are there
arbiters (this ain't France, after all)? And who is John Galt?
Bob Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com>
Raymot
In article <33ef56b2...@10.0.2.1>, sou...@netcom.com says...
>
>On 22 Jul 1997 21:43:07 GMT, ds...@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan)
>wrote:
>>Is it proper to say 'Then you minus 5 from 10', in place of the
>>word 'subtract?
>
>No, it's not proper. "Minus" is not a verb.
>It's not that rare an error, though.
>
It sounds like preposition.
There's another very common, anomalous (incorrect)
construction with "minus" -- "plus or minus" to mean
"with or without".
It's extensively used in Medicine: "You might want to
use a beta-blocker plus or minus a diuretic."
It's very pervasive usage in Australia, but I'm not sure
that it originated here. It's use is probably sustained
by the facts that few doctors have a liberal education,
and that there's a useful shorthand symbol for it.
Raymot
[[[[[[[[[[[
Simon R. Hughes
s.m...@merde.ix.netcom.com (Polar) scribbled:
[snip]
> Heah, heah!
>
> Regulars may recall a related thread I started last year, about
> people who say "times" instead of "multiply". This is becoming so
> common among the young and poorly educated, that I almost wonder
> whether the *teachers* actually use that expression. Anybody know?
I am young and poorly educated
I say "times" instead of "multiply"
------------------------------------------------
I am a teacher
There is something wrong with this logic!
===
+ From the digits of Simon R. Hughes + mailto:shu...@sn.no +
+ Headers changed to prevent spamming. +
+ To reply, remove *spam-blok* from address line. +
Truly Donovan
Brian J Goggin wrote:
> I was surprised to find that Small Son and his colleagues (aged 8 - 9)
> use the phrase "times tables" to refer to addition and subtraction
> tables as well as to multiplication. (They haven't got to division
> yet.)
There's a division *table*? How come nobody ever told me this before?
Where can I get one? (Now, now, dear, calm down -- there are easily 43
calculators in this house, not to mention three computers and it is no
longer necessary for you to do long division under any circumstances.)
--
Truly Donovan
reply to truly at lunemere dot com
colf...@minn.net
I would like to see "minus" and "times" become accepted verbs for
performing the procedure. I think it would be much less confusing for
children. Why burden them with the extra step of learning that
"subtract" is the verb for what they're doing when they say "five
minus three is two," when the purpose of the exercise is to teach them
math? I've seen my own children struggle with this concept, and it
seems totally pointless to me.
Carol from Mpls.
Jon Robert Crofoot
njk...@no-spam.mindspring.com (Mimi Kahn) wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:11:12 -0400, Robert Lieblich
><lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>Fred Bland wrote:
>>>
>>> David Harmon wrote:
>>> >
>>> > wrote:
>>> > >Is it proper to say 'Then you minus 5 from 10', in place of the
>>> > >word 'subtract?
>>> >
>>> > No, it's not proper. "Minus" is not a verb.
>>> > It's not that rare an error, though.
>>>
>>
>>And if it wasn't rare, it wouldn't be an error?
>>
>>Ya know what, I'm going to expand on my apparently smart-ass question.
>>If good usage is (as I like to say) a mistake everyone makes, why is
>>there such a thing as a commonplace mistake, like the apostrophe in the
>>possessive it[']s or "ain't" with the third person singular "She ain't .
>>. .")? At what point do so many people make a mistake that it turns
>>into usage? Does the extent of the resistance matter? Are there
>>arbiters (this ain't France, after all)? And who is John Galt?
>
>
Don't you mean "Any Rant"?
Mark Baker
In article <33d70686...@news.eunet.ie>,
b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian J Goggin) writes:
>>>Millions of people say it; they are all under eight years of age,
>>
>>Mentally, maybe; not chronologically. That one, and "times it"
>>instead of "multiply" are used by people long out of school.
I wouldn't groups these two together; I have never heard "minus" as a verb
from anyone older than about 8; I frequently hear "times" as a verb and
occasionally use it myself.
> I was surprised to find that Small Son and his colleagues (aged 8 - 9)
> use the phrase "times tables" to refer to addition and subtraction
> tables as well as to multiplication. (They haven't got to division
> yet.)
I don't remember ever learning addition or subtraction tables.
Brian J Goggin
On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:04:41 -0700, njk...@no-spam.mindspring.com
(Mimi Kahn) wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:35:20 GMT, b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian J Goggin)
>wrote:
>
>>By the way, how do you keep the number of computers down? What can be
>>done with (eg) a 286 or a Mac Classic?
>
>We use such objects as cat stands.
>
If a hat stand is for hanging hats on, what's a cat stand for? And
why?
bjg
N.Mitchum
In article <33d91c0c...@news.eunet.ie>,-----
> If a hat stand is for hanging hats on, what's a cat stand for?
A cat stands for no nonsense from anybody.
----
> And why?
>....
Because he will do as he do do,
and there's no doing anything about it.
--- NM
[Replies copied to my e-mail are appreciated]
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Brian J Goggin
On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 21:59:21 -0600, Truly Donovan <sp...@killer.com>
wrote:
>Brian J Goggin wrote:
>
>> I was surprised to find that Small Son and his colleagues (aged 8 - 9)
>> use the phrase "times tables" to refer to addition and subtraction
>> tables as well as to multiplication. (They haven't got to division
>> yet.)
>
>There's a division *table*? How come nobody ever told me this before?
>Where can I get one? (Now, now, dear, calm down -- there are easily 43
>calculators in this house, not to mention three computers and it is no
>longer necessary for you to do long division under any circumstances.)
>
But how do you check your calculators' results unless you can do long
division or some form of mental arithmetic?
By the way, how do you keep the number of computers down? What can be
done with (eg) a 286 or a Mac Classic?
bjg
Michael Slone
rmot...@powerup.com.au (Raymot):
> So would not teaching them mathematics at all. It would also
> be easier on the teachers.
Maybe for a bit, but it would catch up with the teachers relatively
quickly. ;-)
> >Why burden them with the extra step of learning that
> >"subtract" is the verb for what they're doing when they say "five
> >minus three is two," when the purpose of the exercise is to teach them
> >math?
The term used by most mathematicians to indicate subtraction (unless
the equivalence of addition and subtraction is being discussed) is
`subtraction'. In teaching math, one should also teach the terminology.
Otherwise, the students will be impaired when it comes time to
collaborate with other mathematicians.
rmot...@powerup.com.au (Raymot):
> That’s a very limited point of view. It reminds me of many of my
> classmates when I was in junior high school: "Why should I learn
> History -- I’m going to be a surveyor?" etc.
> Children need to learn to think, and this isn’t taught (as far as I know)
> unless it’s included *as part of* learning to take three from five.
I saw no evidence in elementary school of attempts to teach either thinking
or learning, or much besides rote. :(
> >I've seen my own children struggle with this concept, and it
> >seems totally pointless to me.
> >
> >Carol from Mpls.
From struggle comes growth.
--
Michael Slone
Email: har...@maxwell.ml.org
har...@valjean.sfhs.floyd.k12.ky.us
Léten Project: http://www.sfhs.floyd.k12.ky.us/~harvel/leten/
Lloyd Zusman
On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:36:02 GMT, Brian J Goggin <b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:04:41 -0700, njk...@no-spam.mindspring.com
> (Mimi Kahn) wrote:
>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>By the way, how do you keep the number of computers down? What can be
> >>done with (eg) a 286 or a Mac Classic?
> >
> >
> why?
My cat stands for no dilly-dallying when he wants to eat.
--
Lloyd Zusman
l...@asfast.com
Albert Marshall
>
>>Brian J Gogginwrote:
>>
>>>By the way, how do you keep the number of computers down? What can be
>>>done with (eg) a 286 or a Mac Classic?
>>
>>We use such objects as cat stands.
>>
>If a hat stand is for hanging hats on, what's a cat stand for? And
>why?
>
--
Albert Marshall
Executive French
Language Training for Businesses in Kent
01634 400902
Michael Rohde
Am Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:13:45 GMT schrieb s.m...@merde.ix.netcom.com
(Polar):
>Regulars may recall a related thread I started last year, about
>people who say "times" instead of "multiply". This is becoming so
>common among the young and poorly educated, that I almost wonder
>whether the *teachers* actually use that expression. Anybody know?
Wait a momemt. Do you want to say with it that "5 * 5" is spoken "five
multiply five" instead of "five times five"?
Is "five times five" wrong? I've never heard "five multiply five" in
movies or while my vacations in the USA but ever heard "five times
five" (or similiar to this) there.
What should I say to be as ordinary as possible?
See, in Germany your fellow citizens would thinking that you would be
a foreigner if you'd use the german language as they is teach at
school :-)
And I think this isn't much difference in Americy, is it?
So I better should use the wrong form "five times five"!?!
--
Schoene Gruesse aus dem waldreichen Siegerland
and have a nice day
...Michael.
Sam & Max - Insidergags (deutsch) : http://www.dom.de/FreiRaum/SamAndMaxGax/
Die besten Postkarten-Gewinnspiele: http://www.dom.de/FreiRaum/gewinnen/
N Mitchum
>By the way, how do you keep the number of computers down? What can be
>done with (eg) a 286 or a Mac Classic?
Though by now Brian himself is safely gone and cavorting with
fellow slackers, I might remind others that their old computers
can be donated to schools, libraries, nonprofit organizations, and
the like.
--- NM : my address <aj...@lafn.org>
N Mitchum
Michael Rohde wrote to >>Polar :
-----
>>people who say "times" instead of "multiply". This is becoming so
>>common among the young and poorly educated, that I almost wonder
>>whether the *teachers* actually use that expression.
>
>
> What should I say to be as ordinary as possible?
What was meant, I'm sure, was that the poster has been hearing
people use "times" as a verb in place of "to multiply." It's not
a verb in "5 times 5," which is indeed the correct and ordinary
form. (The dictionary calls the word a preposition.)
I myself have never heard this usage, but I probably don't mix
with the right crowd. I'm not even sure how it would be
conjugated. Timesed? "She timesed five by five"? No idea.
Gwen Lenker
N Mitchum <KSG...@prodigy.com> wrote in article
<5rdgv8$20va$1...@newsxfs02-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
> What was meant, I'm sure, was that the poster has been hearing
> people use "times" as a verb in place of "to multiply." It's not
> a verb in "5 times 5," which is indeed the correct and ordinary
> form. (The dictionary calls the word a preposition.)
>
> I myself have never heard this usage, but I probably don't mix
> with the right crowd. I'm not even sure how it would be
> conjugated. Timesed? "She timesed five by five"? No idea.
Kids discussing homework:
"How do you figure the area of a rectangle?"
"You take the length and times it by the width."
Adrian Pepper
KSG...@prodigy.com (N Mitchum) wrote,
in article <5rdgv8$20va$1...@newsxfs02-int.news.prodigy.com>:
>Michael Rohde wrote to >>Polar :
>-----
>>>people who say "times" instead of "multiply". This is becoming so
>>>common among the young and poorly educated, that I almost wonder
>>>whether the *teachers* actually use that expression.
>>
>>Wait a momemt. Do you want to say with it that "5 * 5" is spoken "five
>>multiply five" instead of "five times five"? [...]
>>
>> What should I say to be as ordinary as possible?
>>....
>
>What was meant, I'm sure, was that the poster has been hearing
>people use "times" as a verb in place of "to multiply." It's not
>a verb in "5 times 5," which is indeed the correct and ordinary
>form. (The dictionary calls the word a preposition.)
>
>I myself have never heard this usage, but I probably don't mix
>with the right crowd. I'm not even sure how it would be
>conjugated. Timesed? "She timesed five by five"? No idea.
I rather thought "minus", "plus", and "times" must be conjunctions,
but...
Neither Webster nor the O.E.D.
Do in fact agree with me.
Can anyone else corroborate my logic?
"And" and "or" are conjunctions, though I see the OED lists "and" as
"formerly a preposition" in some cases.
Both "and" and "or" can be used as verbs, too, by computer-types.
But they're a gruesome lot.
Adrian Pepper
Adrian Pepper
sou...@netcom.com (David Harmon) wrote,
in article <33ef56b2...@10.0.2.1>:
>On 22 Jul 1997 21:43:07 GMT, ds...@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan)
>wrote:
>>Is it proper to say 'Then you minus 5 from 10', in place of the
>>word 'subtract?
>
>No, it's not proper. "Minus" is not a verb.
>It's not that rare an error, though.
>
I rather thought "minus", "plus", and "times" must be conjunctions,
but...
Neither Webster nor the O.E.D.
Do in fact agree with me.
Can anyone corroborate my logic?
Larry Krakauer
Polar wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:59:50 -0700, njk...@no-spam.mindspring.com
> (Mimi Kahn) wrote:
> > [...]
> >In other words, "minus" shouldn't be used in place of "subtract."
> Heah, heah!
> Regulars may recall a related thread I started last year, about
> people who say "times" instead of "multiply". This is becoming so
> common among the young and poorly educated, that I almost wonder
> whether the *teachers* actually use that expression. Anybody know?
Many (, many, many) years ago, a teacher introduced our class
to the wonders of arithmetic by presenting the four basic
arithmetic operations, "plus", "minus", "times", and "gezinta",
the last as in "three gezinta twelve four times".
He was joking, though.
--
Larry Krakauer (lar...@kronos.com)
Jitze Couperus
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:36:18 -0400, Larry Krakauer <lar...@kronos.com>
wrote:
This term also achieved quasi-official currency in the early
days of computer languages. Most of the early ones (e.g. BASIC and
FORTRAN) used an equal sign as the "assignment operator". Thus
FOO = BAR
meant "put the contents of BAR into FOO" rather than
saying anything about the equality of the contents.
The motion was right-to-left. Some other languages -
notably one called NELIAC (The U.S.Navy's response
the the Air Force's use of a language called JOVIAL)
had the movement go the other way thus:
BAR -> FOO
The assignment operator in this case was called the
"gazinta" (spelled with an "a" in the second position
if memory serves).
(Later the Pentagon tried to eliminate this tower of
Babel and invented a final solution called ADA - which
in turn led to the collapse of the USSR as they drained
their defense budget trying to keep up with American
Technology - but that is another story.)
Many a swabbie spent his formative years proof-reading
punched cards out loud, declaiming such immortal
words as "MAX PLUS MIN SLASH TWO GAZINTA AVERAGE"
However, with today's inexpensive computers and the
demise of the punched card, this ritual may have
disappeared into the mists of history for ever.
Jitze
---
If replying - first remove the .spam.filter from my address
Freeland Blame
Adrian Pepper writes:
> I rather thought "minus", "plus", and "times" must be conjunctions,
> but...
>
> Neither Webster nor the O.E.D.
> Do in fact agree with me.
>
> Can anyone else corroborate my logic?
I hear "plus" used as what I'd call a conjunction, it sounds informal
to me. Burchfield in MEU3 notes the use, and also says "plus" and
"minus" are used as "quasi-prepositions". Fowler/Gowers in 2 don't
have entries for plus or minus. As a quasi-prep, cites Joyce: "A cup
of Epp's cocoa and a shakedown for the night plus the use of a rug or
two and overcoat doubled into a pillow." Of the use as conjunction:
Even more striking, and causing widespread ripples of dismay among
purists, is the use of plus from about the 1960s (first in America)
as a conjunction meaning 'and furthermore, and in addition'.
Common in the States (when I say "the States" I mean, specifically,
East Boston) a couple years ago, and I still use it when I want to
talk bad, was "and plus", where I think "plus" means "furthermore" and
"and" serves as an intensifier.
"Times" I can't construct a conjunction-use for, what do you mean?
fb
John M. Lawler
>> I rather thought "minus", "plus", and "times" must be conjunctions,
>> but...
>> Neither Webster nor the O.E.D.
>> Do in fact agree with me.
>> Can anyone else corroborate my logic?
>I hear "plus" used as what I'd call a conjunction, it sounds informal
>to me. Burchfield in MEU3 notes the use, and also says "plus" and
>"minus" are used as "quasi-prepositions". Fowler/Gowers in 2 don't
>have entries for plus or minus. As a quasi-prep, cites Joyce: "A cup
>of Epp's cocoa and a shakedown for the night plus the use of a rug or
>two and overcoat doubled into a pillow." Of the use as conjunction:
>"Times" I can't construct a conjunction-use for, what do you mean?
Since the basic operations of arithmetic, as well as arithmetic itself,
postdate the Classic Latin Eight Parts of Speech, and since (it hardly
need be said) we're not speaking Latin here, why be surprised if the words
for them don't fit the Procrustean Paradigm?
Mathematicians would call them "operators" or "relations", and that's not
a bad name. Check out "divided by", a participial phrase, but equivalent
to a true preposition, "over". Parts Of Speech are for grade school (if
that). Let's not let our zest for the Classics get in the way of numeracy
the way the way it has of literacy.
By the way, anybody interested in mathematics and the ways it's taught (if
that's the word) would be entranced by George Lakoff and Rafael Nu'n~ez's
paper "The Metaphoric Structure of Mathematics: Sketching out Cognitive
Foundations for a Mind-Based Mathematics", in Lyn D. English (ed.),
_Mathematical Reasoning: Analogies, Metaphors, and Images_, Erlbaum 1997.
Stunningly clear, and very provocative.
- John Lawler University of Michigan Program in Linguistics
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Using Computers in Linguistics: A Practical Guide" Routledge 1998
Online Appendices: http://www.lsa.umich.edu/ling/jlawler/routledge/
Bernie Rataj
In article <5rqqaf$60c$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>, jla...@centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu (John M. Lawler) wrote:
>Since the basic operations of arithmetic, as well as arithmetic itself,
>postdate the Classic Latin Eight Parts of Speech, and since (it hardly
>need be said) we're not speaking Latin here, why be surprised if the words
>for them don't fit the Procrustean Paradigm?
Seems to me the difference between add, subtract, etc. and plus, minus, etc.
has nothing to do with Classic Latin but reflects the prescriptive vs.
descriptive views of mathematical operations.
Telling somebody to do the operations uses the first set, and reading
the equation uses the second set.
Somewhere along the line this model was corrupted.
Bernie
--
Bernie Rataj br...@interlog.com qth://toronto.on.ca
Member: Ontario DX Association, Tsuruoka Canadian Budokai
--