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Usage of "Booked" not in OED

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No One

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Dec 29, 2002, 4:09:32 PM12/29/02
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I had chance to use the word "booked" the other day and everyone understood
my meaning instantly, yet I can find no reference to the usage in OED.

Specifically, we had a female juvenile in custody on a missing person
charge, and transported her to a local juvenile shelter since Mom & Dad
refused to come get her. The shelter is well known for have no security
whatsoever and more often than not people just walk off from there. Anyway,
I dispatched the call to the officer as "The female juvenile you dropped off
at the Oasis Center just booked." The officer and everyone listening
understood the usage of "booked" as "ran away".

Although I grew up with this usage, I don't think this is a regional
expression as I am pretty sure I've heard it used that way on TV. Anyone
care to have a go at this, and why OED doesn't list it ? (At least from
One-Look Dictionary search's link to OED.)

Thanks,
Bill Stewart
Cape Coral, FL


Don Phillipson

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Dec 29, 2002, 4:22:57 PM12/29/02
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"No One" <No...@NoWhere.net> wrote in message
news:gwJP9.12445$j8.4...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...

> I dispatched the call to the officer as "The female juvenile you dropped
off
> at the Oasis Center just booked." The officer and everyone listening
> understood the usage of "booked" as "ran away".
>
> Although I grew up with this usage, I don't think this is a regional
> expression as I am pretty sure I've heard it used that way on TV. Anyone
> care to have a go at this, and why OED doesn't list it ? (At least from
> One-Look Dictionary search's link to OED.)

1. This is an Americanism, rare in Britain; it
appears to refer to the register of daily events
(a book) maintained by US desk sergeants.
2. It is now known in Britain via TV (a catchphrase
in the series Hawaii 5-0); only I simply do not
know whether it is used in the same sense.
3. The possibly regional origins of your word "booked"
do not matter: all words have to originate somewhere.
(I should be more interested in the word "booked" or
"hooked" heard by your interlocutors.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
dphil...@trytel.com.com.com.less2


Don Aitken

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Dec 29, 2002, 5:09:59 PM12/29/02
to

The British usage is precisely the opposite to the one Bill describes.
The desk sergeant books someone by formally accepting them into
custody. This is a required part of the procedure - he is required to
satisfy himself that the person has been lawfully arrested, and make a
record of the fact. The practice goes back a long time; most of the
documentation police are now required to do has a much more recent
origin. It was to be heard in virtually every episode of "Dixon of
Dock Green", back in the fifties.

The "run away" meaning is entirely new to me.

--
Don Aitken

Mark Wallace

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Dec 29, 2002, 6:39:49 PM12/29/02
to

The 'run away' usage is popular in Chandler, and other hard-boiled
dick, crime-story stuff, but I have no idea how it came about.
Doc Robin will probably know; he likes that genre.

--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
For the intelligent approach to nasty humour, visit:
The Anglo-American Humour (humor) Site
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/mainmenu.htm
-----------------------------------------------------

CyberCypher

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Dec 29, 2002, 6:50:49 PM12/29/02
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"No One" <No...@NoWhere.net> burbled
news:gwJP9.12445$j8.4...@twister.tampabay.rr.com:

I think it's much too recent for the OED. I checked a few other online
dictionaries and couldn't find this usage either, but I've known it for
maybe 20 years. I think (just a guess, mind you) that it's African
American slang and common in all regions of the USA.


--
Franke: Speaker and teacher of Standard International English (SIE)


Bermuda999

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Dec 29, 2002, 6:51:22 PM12/29/02
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Don Aitken don-a...@freeuk.com

"Book 'em, Danno"

Tony Cooper

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Dec 29, 2002, 7:00:16 PM12/29/02
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On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 00:39:49 +0100, "Mark Wallace" <mwal...@dse.nl>
wrote:

The surprise at the word "booked" meaning "ran away" surprises me. I
would understand the word - in this context - to mean not only ran
away, but ran away very quickly: She booked out of here.

I am a little surprised that a police officer would use the term since
"booked" also means entered into the system after being arrested. The
arrest is the action, and the booking is the recording. It would seem
to be confusing to say "she booked" on the radio since it could be
misunderstood to mean "she was booked".

"Booked", in the leaving sense, is not limited to escaping or running
away. If I was at a party of the younger set, and asked where
so-and-so was, the answer might be "He booked". It would just mean he
left. If I was hipper than I am, I might say to my wife "Let's book"
meaning "Let's leave".


--
Provider of Jots, Tittles and the occasional "Oy!"
Tony Cooper aka tony_cooper213 at yahoo.com

John Dean

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Dec 29, 2002, 7:05:19 PM12/29/02
to

'OED' can mean a lot of things. The full version is available on-line only
for a subscription (or via certain subscription sites). The OneLook link is
to http://www.askoxford.com/ which has a limited range of information.
I have the OED on CD and it talks of 'book' as a verb for police activity as
follows :-

c. To make an entry of or against a person's name; esp. to enter (a name) in
a police register for an alleged offence; see also quot. 1846.
1841 Fistiana 58 The names of individuals of distinction were ‘booked’
for indictment, should the prosecution of the principal+end in a conviction.
1846 Snowden Magistrate's Assistant 344 Caught, taken, or disposed of:
booked.

On the other sense, it has :

To enter (the arrival or departure of an employee, hotel guest, etc.) in a
book; so to book in, out. Also intr. to book off, to sign an attendance book
on going off duty.
1902 Daily Chron. 13 May 10/5 Baker's+Bookkeeper.—Young lady required,
with good experience, to book men and keep books.

But I'm not familiar with the particular sense you use.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply


rzed

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Dec 29, 2002, 7:25:08 PM12/29/02
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"CyberCypher" <fra...@seed.net.tw> wrote in message
news:Xns92F44FD4E...@130.133.1.4...

I heard this usage no later than 1968 (from a co-worker in a job in left in
that year), in the US Midwest. I don't know the origin, although I'd think
it is at least related to the use of "boogie" to mean "go." It may be more
common to say something like "let's book it" than "let's book."

--
rzed

my-wings

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Dec 29, 2002, 7:17:31 PM12/29/02
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"Mark Wallace" <mwal...@dse.nl> wrote in message
news:auo16e$8stb0$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...

I remember hearing the term in the late 1960's. I recall it as a slang term
for "to leave," as in: "Let's book." I don't recall any connotation of
running away, but there was a certain amount of alacrity associated with
it..

Alice
product of the American mid-west


Pan

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Dec 29, 2002, 7:35:39 PM12/29/02
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On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 22:09:59 +0000, Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com>
wrote:


>The British usage is precisely the opposite to the one Bill describes.
>The desk sergeant books someone by formally accepting them into
>custody. This is a required part of the procedure - he is required to
>satisfy himself that the person has been lawfully arrested, and make a
>record of the fact.

[snip]

We use the word that way, too. One is arrested, taken to the station,
and booked. But "Gotta book!" means "I/we have to leave!"

Michael

ann bishop

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Dec 29, 2002, 7:48:14 PM12/29/02
to
Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote:

> The British usage is precisely the opposite to the one Bill describes.
> The desk sergeant books someone by formally accepting them into
> custody. This is a required part of the procedure - he is required to
> satisfy himself that the person has been lawfully arrested, and make a
> record of the fact. The practice goes back a long time; most of the
> documentation police are now required to do has a much more recent
> origin. It was to be heard in virtually every episode of "Dixon of
> Dock Green", back in the fifties.
>
> The "run away" meaning is entirely new to me.

Entirely new to me too."Booked"is also used by parking
inspectors,thankfully I haven't been booked by one of those recently but
I have been "booked"by the police for doing an illegal right turn.
I imagine "booked"comes from your name being taken down in an official
book.
--
annieb

anni...@optusnet.com.au

Ronald Raygun

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Dec 29, 2002, 8:02:42 PM12/29/02
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No One wrote:

> Specifically, we had a female juvenile in custody on a missing person
> charge,

Not answering the original question, sorry, but taking issue
with "a missing person charge". THIS IS TERRIBLE! Makes it
sound as though it's a crime to "be missing".

Brian Wickham

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Dec 29, 2002, 8:23:17 PM12/29/02
to

This is new to me. I have spent most of my life in the NYC area and
have never heard it at all. I've also mispent a lot of my life in
front of a TV set and never heard it there, or maybe it just slipped
by me. To me, "booked" means turned over to the sergeant at the
booking desk in a precinct house.

Brian Wickham

Mary Shafer Iliff

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Dec 29, 2002, 8:42:52 PM12/29/02
to
Don Aitken wrote:

> The "run away" meaning is entirely new to me.

It doesn't mean "run away", it means "leave". I was sitting in
a meeting when the person holding it said, "Everyone but the
members of the Configuration Control Panel can book now" and I
booked. I've also heard some of my co-workers sat "I'm booking"
as they leave for the day.

It's not new, as I've been using it for at least a decade, and
probably longer. Let's see, it wasn't new when I was the FTE
on AFTI/F-16, making up flight cards with a DECmate II, so that
would put it back to some time before about 1992.

Mary

Bermuda999

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Dec 29, 2002, 9:13:20 PM12/29/02
to
Mary Shafer Iliff mil...@qnet.com

The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang:

"book...
3. [infl. by BOOG, BOOGIE, v.] to leave.; to go fast; move along. -- also
constr. with 'it', 'up'."

[snip of cites going back as far as 1974]

Don Phillipson

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Dec 29, 2002, 9:17:42 PM12/29/02
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"Ronald Raygun" <no....@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
news:SWMP9.6936$hL6.47...@news-text.cableinet.net...

As well as charged with a crime, this
might mean just that the police had been
charged to find someone under age and missing.

Pan

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Dec 29, 2002, 9:32:25 PM12/29/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 01:23:17 GMT, bwic...@nyc.rr.com (Brian Wickham)
wrote:

>This is new to me. I have spent most of my life in the NYC area and
>have never heard it at all.

[snip]

That's strange to me.

I first came across it when my brother was at SUNY-Binghamton, I
think. Perhaps it was used a lot by the Long Islanders who seemed to
be a majority of the population at that school.

Michael

Laura F Spira

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Dec 30, 2002, 12:40:28 AM12/30/02
to

"Da-da da-da DA da.." Thanks for that - the potential STS of the DoDG
signature tune (and even more irritating image of Jack Warner saying
"Evening, all") has now been neatly overlaid.


--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

david56

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Dec 30, 2002, 6:04:34 AM12/30/02
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Bermuda999 wrote:
> Don Aitken don-a...@freeuk.com
>
>>The British usage is precisely the opposite to the one Bill describes.
>>The desk sergeant books someone by formally accepting them into
>>custody. This is a required part of the procedure - he is required to
>>satisfy himself that the person has been lawfully arrested, and make a
>>record of the fact. The practice goes back a long time; most of the
>>documentation police are now required to do has a much more recent
>>origin. It was to be heard in virtually every episode of "Dixon of
>>Dock Green", back in the fifties.
>
> "Book 'em, Danno"

"Book 'em, Danno, Murder One".

I have never knowingly heard booked meaning skedaddled. The H5O tag
line above seemed to be the standard meaning of "write their name in a
book reserved for those being arrested".

--
David
-
When I snuff it bury me quick, then let carousels begin.
=====
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.

John Dean

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Dec 30, 2002, 6:34:39 AM12/30/02
to

Johnny Todd he took a notion
For to cross the ocean wide ....

Laura F Spira

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Dec 30, 2002, 6:55:11 AM12/30/02
to
John Dean wrote:
>
> Laura F Spira wrote:
> > Bermuda999 wrote:
> >>
> >> Don Aitken don-a...@freeuk.com
> >>
> >>>
> >>> The British usage is precisely the opposite to the one Bill
> >>> describes.
> >>> The desk sergeant books someone by formally accepting them into
> >>> custody. This is a required part of the procedure - he is required
> >>> to satisfy himself that the person has been lawfully arrested, and
> >>> make a record of the fact. The practice goes back a long time; most
> >>> of the documentation police are now required to do has a much more
> >>> recent
> >>> origin. It was to be heard in virtually every episode of "Dixon of
> >>> Dock Green", back in the fifties.
> >>
> >> "Book 'em, Danno"
> >
> > "Da-da da-da DA da.." Thanks for that - the potential STS of the DoDG
> > signature tune (and even more irritating image of Jack Warner saying
> > "Evening, all") has now been neatly overlaid.
>
> Johnny Todd he took a notion
> For to cross the ocean wide ....

Now that is *cruel*. Be afraid, be very afraid...

Frances Kemmish

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Dec 30, 2002, 7:32:06 AM12/30/02
to


But Laura, the nostalgia! I just spent ten minutes playing it over and
over - it takes me back to my youth - Tuesday nights round the
flickering black and white TV....Aaaaaah..

According to this page, you can even get your mobile phone to play it as
a ring tone:

http://www.hut.fi/~mhbarker/football/Z-Cars.html

Fran

Matti Lamprhey

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Dec 30, 2002, 7:32:28 AM12/30/02
to
"david56" <bass.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote...

> Bermuda999 wrote:
> >
> > "Book 'em, Danno"
>
> "Book 'em, Danno, Murder One".
>
> I have never knowingly heard booked meaning skedaddled. The H5O tag
> line above seemed to be the standard meaning of "write their name in a
> book reserved for those being arrested".

Yes. And "booked out" is entirely understandable as slang for "ran away".
Somewhere along the line some illiterate dickhead thought he could omit that
vital modifier. STGM. [1]

[1] Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Matti


R Fontana

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Dec 30, 2002, 8:09:30 AM12/30/02
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On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Brian Wickham wrote:

> This is new to me. I have spent most of my life in the NYC area and
> have never heard it at all. I've also mispent a lot of my life in
> front of a TV set and never heard it there, or maybe it just slipped
> by me.

I think I've only heard it on TV and the like, never in real life. My
impression is that it's relatively archaic or obsolete slang, but then
I used to say that about 'cool'.

ann bishop

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Dec 30, 2002, 8:12:10 AM12/30/02
to
Pan <panNO...@musician.org> wrote:

> We use the word that way, too. One is arrested, taken to the station,
> and booked. But "Gotta book!" means "I/we have to leave!"
>
> Michael

Perhaps the "leave"meaning is purely US.
It certainly isn't used that way in Australia.

--
annieb

anni...@optusnet.com.au

Frances Kemmish

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Dec 30, 2002, 8:30:38 AM12/30/02
to

We talked about this before (I looked it up - it was in 1999), and most
of the people who knew the usage came from the Midwest. I know someone
from Binghamton who says "book" meaning "move fast", and when we
discussed it in 1999, someone from Buffalo or Rochester also said they
used it.

It's not archaic, just regional.

Pan

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Dec 30, 2002, 8:41:06 AM12/30/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:09:30 -0500, R Fontana
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

>I think I've only heard it on TV and the like, never in real life. My
>impression is that it's relatively archaic or obsolete slang, but then
>I used to say that about 'cool'.

You really _are_ a callow youth. :-)

Michael

P.S. What did you say for "cool"? "Rad"?

Tony Cooper

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Dec 30, 2002, 9:04:46 AM12/30/02
to

I plead guilty to being of Midwest origins, but have trouble accepting
"book" with this meaning as regional. Another form is "He was really
booking" meaning that he was moving fast.

Martin Ambuhl

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Dec 30, 2002, 9:12:41 AM12/30/02
to
No One wrote:


> Anyone
> care to have a go at this, and why OED doesn't list it ? (At least from
> One-Look Dictionary search's link to OED.)

How did you get One-Look Dictionary to give a link to OED? When I tried,
the link was to Oxford Paperback Dictionary and Thesaurus, a dictionary of
very limited coverage and depth.


John Dean

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Dec 30, 2002, 10:27:18 AM12/30/02
to
Laura F Spira wrote:
> John Dean wrote:
>>
>>
>> Johnny Todd he took a notion
>> For to cross the ocean wide ....
>
> Now that is *cruel*. Be afraid, be very afraid...

I shall fear nothing. I have taken Frank Windsor's sage advice and I have
Insurance up the ying-yang as well as a life subscription to SAGA

John Dean

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Dec 30, 2002, 10:28:51 AM12/30/02
to

GRT [2]

[2] Goodbye Ruby Tuesday

Laura F Spira

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Dec 30, 2002, 10:41:32 AM12/30/02
to

You might not feel that way were you subjected to occasional TV glimpses
of the very elderly-looking Fancy Smith and Bert Lynch, reminding you of
just how long ago those Tuesday nights were...

I'm glad it made someone happy. The tune has caused me *real* bother for
the last few hours. I have just walked past Mr Dean's house: had there
been an odd brick lying about, I might have found it difficult to resist
the temptation to lob it through his window.

Padraig Breathnach

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Dec 30, 2002, 10:52:11 AM12/30/02
to
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

It depends on what size region you have in mind. I'm fairly sure that
"booked" is not used in Ireland in any of the senses "run away" or
"escape" or "get out" or "move fast".

PB

Laura F Spira

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Dec 30, 2002, 11:03:00 AM12/30/02
to

WM3A

John Lawler

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Dec 30, 2002, 12:22:21 PM12/30/02
to
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Frances Kemmish <fkem...@optonline.net> writes:
>>R Fontana writes:

>>>Brian Wickham writes:

>>>>This is new to me. I have spent most of my life in the NYC area and
>>>>have never heard it at all. I've also mispent a lot of my life in
>>>>front of a TV set and never heard it there, or maybe it just slipped
>>>>by me.

>>> I think I've only heard it on TV and the like, never in real life. My
>>> impression is that it's relatively archaic or obsolete slang, but then
>>> I used to say that about 'cool'.

>>We talked about this before (I looked it up - it was in 1999), and most
>>of the people who knew the usage came from the Midwest. I know someone
>>from Binghamton who says "book" meaning "move fast", and when we
>>discussed it in 1999, someone from Buffalo or Rochester also said they
>>used it.

>>It's not archaic, just regional.

>I plead guilty to being of Midwest origins, but have trouble accepting
>"book" with this meaning as regional. Another form is "He was really
>booking" meaning that he was moving fast.

This is the one I'm (remotely) familiar with.

A couple of years ago, in a semantics class, we were doing a joint project
on categorizing the English verbs of unaided physical motion (run, walk,
saunter, jump, etc.) and "book" got suggested. When I expressed surprise,
all the students (born after 1978 and mostly Midwestern) agreed:
o that it was common,
o that they'd used it since childhood,
o that it meant "move fast"
(as, e.g, on a bicycle),
o that it was most commonly used in the progressive
("He was really bookin'"), and
o that it was a cool expression
(i.e, kids their age used it and they wouldn't expect it from adults).

For my (b.1942 DeKalb IL) part, I'd never used it or heard it used in that
sense (or in the "take leave" sense) before, and haven't since, though the
police sergeant's sense is quite familiar.

I have no idea where or when it originated, nor what its source might be
(i.e, I can think of several possibilities off the top of my head, and
have no evidence for the correctness of any of them).

-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"A man does not know what he is saying until he knows what he
is not saying." -- G.K. Chesterton, 1936, "As I Was Saying"

John Todd

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Dec 30, 2002, 12:59:31 PM12/30/02
to
On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:00:16 -0500, Tony Cooper
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>The surprise at the word "booked" meaning "ran away" surprises me. I
>would understand the word - in this context - to mean not only ran
>away, but ran away very quickly: She booked out of here.
>
>I am a little surprised that a police officer would use the term since
>"booked" also means entered into the system after being arrested. The
>arrest is the action, and the booking is the recording. It would seem
>to be confusing to say "she booked" on the radio since it could be
>misunderstood to mean "she was booked".
>
>"Booked", in the leaving sense, is not limited to escaping or running
>away. If I was at a party of the younger set, and asked where
>so-and-so was, the answer might be "He booked". It would just mean he
>left. If I was hipper than I am, I might say to my wife "Let's book"
>meaning "Let's leave".

I'd be interested in seeing your guess about the expression's
origin, Tony.

--
_______________________________________
John E. Todd <> jt...@island.net

Note: Ensure correct polarity prior to connection.

Brian Wickham

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Dec 30, 2002, 2:50:38 PM12/30/02
to

This really opens a can of worms! I'm older than RF but from the same
general area. To me, "cool" was out, since it was used by adult jazz
fans only and was associated, humoruosly, with berets and chin
whiskers. As a kid we said "weak", 1951ish; "wicked" 1953ish; "cool",
a rebirth in the mid 1950s; "boss" very briefly in the late 1950s; and
then we spoke English, NYC version mostly, from that time on. "Cool"
came back in the early 1960s as the only way to describe the James
Bond persona. But that was not a use of "cool" in the street sense.
"Cool" had become mainstream by then and was unusable as slang until a
new generation came along.

The above are just my observations and can't be proven by me.

Brian Wickham

Tony Cooper

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Dec 30, 2002, 3:39:55 PM12/30/02
to
On 30 Dec 2002 17:59:31 GMT, jo...@Neopha.44in88.net (John Todd) wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:00:16 -0500, Tony Cooper
> <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>The surprise at the word "booked" meaning "ran away" surprises me. I
>>would understand the word - in this context - to mean not only ran
>>away, but ran away very quickly: She booked out of here.
>>
>>I am a little surprised that a police officer would use the term since
>>"booked" also means entered into the system after being arrested. The
>>arrest is the action, and the booking is the recording. It would seem
>>to be confusing to say "she booked" on the radio since it could be
>>misunderstood to mean "she was booked".
>>
>>"Booked", in the leaving sense, is not limited to escaping or running
>>away. If I was at a party of the younger set, and asked where
>>so-and-so was, the answer might be "He booked". It would just mean he
>>left. If I was hipper than I am, I might say to my wife "Let's book"
>>meaning "Let's leave".
>
> I'd be interested in seeing your guess about the expression's
>origin, Tony.

I have absolutely no idea. It's one of those words or phrases that
one hears, absorbs, and sometimes uses without any thought of the
origin. People assume most such phrases come from African-American
origins, but I feel that caucasian have also contributed to the
lexicon of indefinite origin usage with equal creativity.

It's a usage that does not conjure up a mental image of what it means
like, say, "hauling ass". I don't think it's necessarily wrong for a
word or phrase not to have a coining reason or date of origin. I am
always distrustful of people that say "The first time I heard that
phrase was late afternoon in the second week of August, 1971, in a
stationery store in Parma, Ohio." A claim impossible to refute, but
one that sounds too pat for me.

Speaking of stationery stores, and to segue back to a previous thread,
I saw a wondrous thing the other day: a Pilot retractable fountain
pen. A mere $115.00.

R Fontana

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Dec 30, 2002, 3:36:30 PM12/30/02
to

Well, you asked, so I better answer. "Rad"? No, of course not. As far
as I can remember, we had no reason to use any such word, for the most
part. I mean, it's sort of like the ridiculosity of such words was
apparent from the get-go. In the case of "cool", the get-go was, as a
rule, the popular 1970s sitcom about an idealized version of the
1950s, _Happy Days_. Speaking of 1970s Fifties-revivalism, one thing
that divided kids in the late '70s was the popular movie _Grease_. I
don't know whether "cool" was used in _Grease_, but I have the
intuition that if a kid liked _Grease_ when he or she was 11 they were
more likely to use "cool" five or six years later. Needless to say, I
didn't like _Grease_, which I saw as a bad cultural development. Hey
C**p, did your kids like _Grease_?

I noticed a gradual increase in youth usage of "cool" during my teenage
years, from about 1982 to 1987. I can't recall a single usage of
"cool" before 1982 that was not ironical or jocular or Fonzie-referent
in nature. Even those were pretty uncommon if not completely
nonexistent [note to RJV: I'm not saying that the usage didn't
exist at that time] (unlike "nerd", another word that was popularized
by _Happy Days_, as I have convincingly shown). The guy who used it
in 1982 was not a New York speaker, but I don't remember where he was
from. Chances are it was a northeastern suburb. I do remember that he
was white and middle-class and he had shoulder-length hair, he fancied
himself an electric guitar player like so many white male middle-class
American adolescents from that era, and he -- I'm not making this up
-- was a fan of the beat combo 'Def Leppard'. I think this is probably
extremely significant. He used 'cool' in the following sentence:
"That ain't cool". The 'ain't' was ironical, but I don't think the
'cool' was.

After 1982, I don't believe I heard 'cool' again until the end of my
high school years, in 1985 and 1986. The people I started to hear
using 'cool' were, as a rule, (a) people who lived on the Upper West
Side of Manhattan, or else (b) people who spent a lot of time with
people who lived on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, and it was
without exception students who had relatively high social status. I
think this too may be very significant. I don't want to give you the
impression that 'cool' was commonly used by such people. But it was
occasionally used, and naturally so. And other people just
didn't use it. However, I'm dead sure it was only used as an
adjective at this time. When I started college in 1987 I began to hear
adjectival "cool" used with even greater frequency; I went to a college
whose student body was drawn from all over the place but the biggest
concentration was people from the East Coast, especially the New York,
Boston and D.C. metropolitan regions, particularly the New York one.

I don't know when I started to hear the special interjection "Cool!" or
its variant "Kewl!", but I don't remember being strongly aware of this
till after 1990, which is quite late. Sure (hi RJV!), maybe it was
used way back in _Fast Times at Ridgemont High_, but I still haven't
seen that.

Regarding 'what word did I use', like I said, I can't recall ever
needing one. I think for some uses of 'cool' today we'd use "good" or
"great", maybe "neat" which I still sometimes say today, but that
might be more from my childhood speech. When I was in
seventh grade (1980-1981) many boys (not girls) in my grade started
using "Excellent!", and I remember there being an awareness of it
being sort of an ironical faddish youth thing of the day. This died
out quickly, but it's interesting that it persisted in the larger
society, and I think even today "Excellent!" is associated with young
teenagers. It's my recollection that the kids who were using
"Excellent!" in 1980-1981 were pretty much exactly the same as the kids
who had microcomputers at home and a special interest in subjects
mathematical and scientific.

I can remember some of us jocularly and ironically using "awesome" in
imitation of Valley Girl speech, but the point is that it was
essentially foreign, the whole notion of needing such a word. Probably
some people similarly jocularly used "cool", and I'm just not
remembering it. But one thing's for sure, the Upper West Side hipsters
in the mid-'80s were using it naturally (though not continuously).

Regarding gender, my sense from looking back on the 1985-1989 period
is that the users of "cool" were more likely to be female.
The first bizarre older-generation-reappropriation of "cool" that I
noticed was in 1990.


Tony Cooper

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 4:05:32 PM12/30/02
to

In Ireland, or at least in parts of Ireland, the word is heard as
"fooked", as in "He fooked out a here, didn't he?"

John Dawkins

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 4:18:32 PM12/30/02
to
In article <auo16e$8stb0$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de>,
"Mark Wallace" <mwal...@dse.nl> wrote:

> Don Aitken wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:22:57 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
> > <dphil...@trytel.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "No One" <No...@NoWhere.net> wrote in message
> >> news:gwJP9.12445$j8.4...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> >>
> >>> I dispatched the call to the officer as "The female juvenile
> >>> you dropped off at the Oasis Center just booked." The officer
> >>> and everyone listening understood the usage of "booked" as "ran
> >>> away".
> >>>
> >>> Although I grew up with this usage, I don't think this is a
> >>> regional expression as I am pretty sure I've heard it used that

> >>> way on TV. Anyone care to have a go at this, and why OED


> >>> doesn't list it ? (At least from One-Look Dictionary search's
> >>> link to OED.)
> >>

> >> 1. This is an Americanism, rare in Britain; it
> >> appears to refer to the register of daily events
> >> (a book) maintained by US desk sergeants.
> >> 2. It is now known in Britain via TV (a catchphrase
> >> in the series Hawaii 5-0); only I simply do not
> >> know whether it is used in the same sense.
> >> 3. The possibly regional origins of your word "booked"
> >> do not matter: all words have to originate somewhere.
> >> (I should be more interested in the word "booked" or
> >> "hooked" heard by your interlocutors.)
> >

> > The British usage is precisely the opposite to the one Bill
> > describes. The desk sergeant books someone by formally accepting
> > them into custody. This is a required part of the procedure - he
> > is required to satisfy himself that the person has been lawfully
> > arrested, and make a record of the fact. The practice goes back a
> > long time; most of the documentation police are now required to
> > do has a much more recent origin. It was to be heard in virtually
> > every episode of "Dixon of Dock Green", back in the fifties.
> >

> > The "run away" meaning is entirely new to me.
>
> The 'run away' usage is popular in Chandler, and other hard-boiled
> dick, crime-story stuff, but I have no idea how it came about.
> Doc Robin will probably know; he likes that genre.

Do you remember which Chandler novel or story this usage appears in?

--
J.

Padraig Breathnach

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 4:57:52 PM12/30/02
to
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:52:11 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
><padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:30:38 -0500, Frances Kemmish
>>><fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>We talked about this before (I looked it up - it was in 1999), and most
>>>>of the people who knew the usage came from the Midwest. I know someone
>>>>from Binghamton who says "book" meaning "move fast", and when we
>>>>discussed it in 1999, someone from Buffalo or Rochester also said they
>>>>used it.
>>>>
>>>>It's not archaic, just regional.
>>>
>>>I plead guilty to being of Midwest origins, but have trouble accepting
>>>"book" with this meaning as regional. Another form is "He was really
>>>booking" meaning that he was moving fast.
>>
>>It depends on what size region you have in mind. I'm fairly sure that
>>"booked" is not used in Ireland in any of the senses "run away" or
>>"escape" or "get out" or "move fast".
>>
>
>In Ireland, or at least in parts of Ireland, the word is heard as
>"fooked", as in "He fooked out a here, didn't he?"

That's "fucked", the Swiss army vocabulary knife of the inarticulate.

PB

Tony Cooper

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 5:16:30 PM12/30/02
to

I am aware of the meaning. Phonetically, though, it is "fooked" in
some areas. Tell me you haven't heard "The fookin' thing won't fit in
the fookin' place where it's supposed to fookin' fit. I'm fookin'
tired of fookin' wi' it. It can get fooked for all I care."

david56

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 6:12:02 PM12/30/02
to
Tony Cooper wrote:

> Speaking of stationery stores, and to segue back to a previous thread,
> I saw a wondrous thing the other day: a Pilot retractable fountain
> pen. A mere $115.00.

Oooohhh. At the bottom of this page
http://www.pilotpen.co.uk/whatsnew/new1.htm. I must have one.

Simon R. Hughes

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 6:26:49 PM12/30/02
to
Thus Spake david56:

> Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> > Speaking of stationery stores, and to segue back to a previous thread,
> > I saw a wondrous thing the other day: a Pilot retractable fountain
> > pen. A mere $115.00.
>
> Oooohhh. At the bottom of this page
> http://www.pilotpen.co.uk/whatsnew/new1.htm. I must have one.

The 14 ct gold nib is far too soft; I would bend it in a matter of
hours. I prefer sprung steel.
--
Simon R. Hughes
<!-- -->

Simon R. Hughes

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 6:28:11 PM12/30/02
to
Thus Spake Simon R. Hughes:

I'd also have to snap that clip off -- it would get in the way.

Simon R. Hughes

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 6:41:34 PM12/30/02
to
Thus Spake Padraig Breathnach:
> Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> >In Ireland, or at least in parts of Ireland, the word is heard as
> >"fooked", as in "He fooked out a here, didn't he?"
>
> That's "fucked", the Swiss army vocabulary knife of the inarticulate.

Hey! Don't fuckin' start!

Padraig Breathnach

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 6:45:46 PM12/30/02
to
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Tell me you haven't heard "The fookin' thing won't fit in
>the fookin' place where it's supposed to fookin' fit. I'm fookin'
>tired of fookin' wi' it. It can get fooked for all I care."

Would you have me tell a lie? I am too good and moral for that.

PB

Aaron J. Dinkin

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 8:35:19 PM12/30/02
to
On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:42:52 -0800, Mary Shafer Iliff <mil...@qnet.com> wrote:

> Don Aitken wrote:
>
>> The "run away" meaning is entirely new to me.
>

> It doesn't mean "run away", it means "leave". I was sitting in
> a meeting when the person holding it said, "Everyone but the
> members of the Configuration Control Panel can book now" and I
> booked. I've also heard some of my co-workers sat "I'm booking"
> as they leave for the day.

To me it doesn't mean 'run away' or 'leave'; it means 'hurry (to get
somewhere)'. "Everyone but the members of the panel can book now" would
mean little to me. I would say something like "My bus leaves in half an
hour, but if I really book it, I should get to the station before it
leaves."

I'm also more likely to say "book it" than "book".

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom

Gary G. Taylor

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 8:46:55 PM12/30/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:36:30 -0500, R Fontana
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

>I noticed a gradual increase in youth usage of "cool" during my teenage
>years, from about 1982 to 1987. I can't recall a single usage of
>"cool" before 1982 that was not ironical or jocular or Fonzie-referent
>in nature. Even those were pretty uncommon if not completely
>nonexistent [note to RJV: I'm not saying that the usage didn't
>exist at that time] (unlike "nerd", another word that was popularized
>by _Happy Days_, as I have convincingly shown). The guy who used it
>in 1982 was not a New York speaker, but I don't remember where he was
>from. Chances are it was a northeastern suburb. I do remember that he
>was white and middle-class and he had shoulder-length hair, he fancied
>himself an electric guitar player like so many white male middle-class
>American adolescents from that era, and he -- I'm not making this up
>-- was a fan of the beat combo 'Def Leppard'. I think this is probably
>extremely significant. He used 'cool' in the following sentence:
>"That ain't cool". The 'ain't' was ironical, but I don't think the
>'cool' was.

I recall "cool" in the 1950s, as part of beatnik and musician slang.
Quite common. I believe it goes back farther than that; I seem to
recall having heard it used by the then-equivalent of hipsters in
1930s movies.

--
Gary G. Taylor * Rialto, CA
gary at cdfound dot org
www dot geetee dot cdfound dot org
I REPORT ***ALL*** SPAM!
"The two most abundant things in the Universe are
hydrogen and stupidity." --Harlan Ellison

GrapeApe

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 8:55:02 PM12/30/02
to
>>"Booked", in the leaving sense, is not limited to escaping or running
>>away. If I was at a party of the younger set, and asked where
>>so-and-so was, the answer might be "He booked". It would just mean he
>>left. If I was hipper than I am, I might say to my wife "Let's book"
>>meaning "Let's leave".

Past discussion of 'booked' in this sense brought up the point that it is not
necessarily for the vector to be 'away'. If one saw a vehicle coming towards
one, you could even say it booked, in getting there. My sense of folk etymology
wants to tie it into breaking a speed record, which may be entered in a book.
Also, see: Boogie.

Being booked, is being entered in the record, such as a book of racing
statistitcs, or the criminal record.

>>
>>I am a little surprised that a police officer would use the term since
>>"booked" also means entered into the system after being arrested. The
>>arrest is the action, and the booking is the recording. It would seem
>>to be confusing to say "she booked" on the radio since it could be
>>misunderstood to mean "she was booked".

I think in most leftpondian dialog, if a the girl was processed into jail so,
the helping verb 'was' would almost always be there, to show that she is the
passive object of the booking. It is not like the verb 'pass'. Without the
"was", the phrase would be "She booked" which would then bring up the "ran very
fast" meaning.


Skitt

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 9:09:08 PM12/30/02
to
GrapeApe wrote:

>>> "Booked", in the leaving sense, is not limited to escaping or
>>> running away. If I was at a party of the younger set, and asked
>>> where so-and-so was, the answer might be "He booked". It would
>>> just mean he left. If I was hipper than I am, I might say to my
>>> wife "Let's book" meaning "Let's leave".
>
> Past discussion of 'booked' in this sense brought up the point that
> it is not necessarily for the vector to be 'away'. If one saw a
> vehicle coming towards one, you could even say it booked, in getting
> there. My sense of folk etymology wants to tie it into breaking a
> speed record, which may be entered in a book. Also, see: Boogie.

I agree with this. To "book" is to go. It could be in any direction. I
have no idea where I first heard this word with that particular meaning, but
it was quite a few years ago. I hesitate to guess when, though.

It seems that in certain East Coast neighborhoods that meaning is not
clearly understood.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)

Pan

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Dec 30, 2002, 9:45:28 PM12/30/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:22:21 GMT, jla...@zektor.gpcc.itd.umich.edu
(John Lawler) wrote:

>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> writes:

>>I plead guilty to being of Midwest origins, but have trouble accepting
>>"book" with this meaning as regional. Another form is "He was really
>>booking" meaning that he was moving fast.
>
>This is the one I'm (remotely) familiar with.

[snip]

And I've never heard that usage.

I see no-one has suggested that "to book," meaning "to leave," derives
from "to book a flight." I guess it doesn't.

Michael

Pan

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 9:47:45 PM12/30/02
to
On 31 Dec 2002 01:55:02 GMT, grap...@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe) wrote:

>Past discussion of 'booked' in this sense brought up the point that it is not
>necessarily for the vector to be 'away'. If one saw a vehicle coming towards
>one, you could even say it booked, in getting there.

Not in my usage. "Booked" means "left," period.

> My sense of folk etymology
>wants to tie it into breaking a speed record, which may be entered in a book.

Interesting.

>Also, see: Boogie.
[snip]

Boogie means to dance fast, originally, as in "boogie-woogie"?

Michael

Pan

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 9:53:25 PM12/30/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:50:38 GMT, bwic...@nyc.rr.com (Brian Wickham)
wrote:

>This really opens a can of worms! I'm older than RF but from the same
>general area. To me, "cool" was out, since it was used by adult jazz
>fans only and was associated, humoruosly, with berets and chin
>whiskers. As a kid we said "weak", 1951ish; "wicked" 1953ish; "cool",
>a rebirth in the mid 1950s; "boss" very briefly in the late 1950s; and
>then we spoke English, NYC version mostly, from that time on. "Cool"
>came back in the early 1960s as the only way to describe the James
>Bond persona. But that was not a use of "cool" in the street sense.
>"Cool" had become mainstream by then and was unusable as slang until a
>new generation came along.

[snip]

Thanks for addressing this.

My memory was that I and my age-mates used "neat!" and "neato!" until
I was in 7th grade (1977-78).* From that point on, "cool!" was used,
and I still use it, though it's now dated slang from the viewpoint of
the new generation.

"Awesome!" and, somewhat humorously, "totally awesome!" (especially
with a stylized accent and cadence) were picked up to a degree from
Valley Girl talk around 1977-78, too. I don't think New Yorkers ever
fully domesticated them in normal speech.

*Full disclosure: I was in Malaysia from 1975-77, so I have no idea
when the changeover from "neat!" to "cool!" happened.

Michael

Tony Cooper

unread,
Dec 30, 2002, 10:25:19 PM12/30/02
to
On 31 Dec 2002 01:55:02 GMT, grap...@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe) wrote:

>>>I am a little surprised that a police officer would use the term since
>>>"booked" also means entered into the system after being arrested. The
>>>arrest is the action, and the booking is the recording. It would seem
>>>to be confusing to say "she booked" on the radio since it could be
>>>misunderstood to mean "she was booked".
>
>I think in most leftpondian dialog, if a the girl was processed into jail so,
>the helping verb 'was' would almost always be there, to show that she is the
>passive object of the booking. It is not like the verb 'pass'. Without the
>"was", the phrase would be "She booked" which would then bring up the "ran very
>fast" meaning.
>

I think the difference between "she booked" and "she was booked" is
very clear. What surprised me, though, is the use of the "she booked"
term on the phone or radio. A word or meaning can become scrambled in
transmission and would be very misleading. That's why police tend to
say things like "negative" instead of "no"....less chance of garbling.

sa...@non.com

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Dec 30, 2002, 11:09:03 PM12/30/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:36:30 -0500, R Fontana
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

> In the case of "cool", the get-go was, as a
>rule, the popular 1970s sitcom about an idealized version of the
>1950s, _Happy Days_.

Nonsense. "Cool" was very common in the fifties. It ranked right up
there with "daddyo".

Larry

Steve Hayes

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 12:00:06 AM12/31/02
to
On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:00:16 -0500, Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>The surprise at the word "booked" meaning "ran away" surprises me. I
>would understand the word - in this context - to mean not only ran
>away, but ran away very quickly: She booked out of here.
>

>I am a little surprised that a police officer would use the term since
>"booked" also means entered into the system after being arrested. The
>arrest is the action, and the booking is the recording. It would seem
>to be confusing to say "she booked" on the radio since it could be
>misunderstood to mean "she was booked".
>

>"Booked", in the leaving sense, is not limited to escaping or running
>away. If I was at a party of the younger set, and asked where
>so-and-so was, the answer might be "He booked". It would just mean he
>left. If I was hipper than I am, I might say to my wife "Let's book"
>meaning "Let's leave".

But for the post-20th Party Congress pre-Cuban Missile Crisis generation of
cool users, the cool thing to say is "let's split."

Like some others here, I'd heard of booking in, or being booked in, but never
of booking out. That must be confined to the post-UDI pre Prague Spring
generation of cool users.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

John Smith

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 12:02:08 AM12/31/02
to
Frances Kemmish wrote:
> <...>

> It's not archaic, just regional.

It's not regional in the U.S. In my experience, it was universal among
U.S. servicemen in Europe in the late 1960s. It meant "to leave."
Period. After about 20 minutes in a bar, someone would yell "Book!" and
all the cool people would proceed to the next bar.

\\P. Schultz

sand

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 12:55:34 AM12/31/02
to

It is speculation on my part, but perhaps "cool" came to be used in
the sense of approval to indicate somebody in control and not easily
shaken by circumstance.

Jan Sand

R J Valentine

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 1:35:06 AM12/31/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:39:55 -0500 Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
...

} I am
} always distrustful of people that say "The first time I heard that
} phrase was late afternoon in the second week of August, 1971, in a
} stationery store in Parma, Ohio." A claim impossible to refute, but
} one that sounds too pat for me.
...

Yet it happens. It's often related to the Kennedy syndrome ((now the 9/11
syndrome) "Where were you?"), but on a more personal level.

For instance, It happens that I remember the state, town, village, street,
house number, and room where I first heard the expression "I could care
less" in 1962, but the month and day elude me just now. It sounded plain
wrong at the time, but I hadn't been in the Army yet to appreciate why a
drill sergeant might phrase it that way.

A few months ago I had the occasion to be (re)introduced to a family I had
met last February 9th (a Saturday evening (I didn't just check, so someone
playing the odds could find me wrong if I were), and they seemed surprised
that I knew exactly when and where I saw them last. It happened that I
had injured my hand the week before, which was an easy date to remember
(02/02/02) and they nearly brought me to my knees when they shook my hand,
but I didn't want to trouble them with that information, so I just
shrugged it off as if I were burdened with a good memory.

Everyone has dates and times they remember, and sometimes a matter of
English usage can be associated with them.

I can probably come up with the date that I first heard the word "decade"
pronounced with the accent on the second syllable. But then so can
probably half the people on alt.usage.english.

--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>

R J Valentine

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 1:46:34 AM12/31/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:36:30 -0500 R Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

} When I was in
} seventh grade (1980-1981) many boys (not girls) in my grade started
} using "Excellent!", and I remember there being an awareness of it
} being sort of an ironical faddish youth thing of the day.

When was _Wayne's World_ first on _Saturday Night Live_?

Pan

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 2:40:06 AM12/31/02
to
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 05:00:06 GMT, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes)
wrote:

>But for the post-20th Party Congress pre-Cuban Missile Crisis generation of
>cool users, the cool thing to say is "let's split."

[snip]

I consider "to split" to be a totally normal usage.

Michael (post-Cuban Missile Crisis)

Mark Wallace

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 4:52:52 AM12/31/02
to
John Todd wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:00:16 -0500, Tony Cooper
> <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> The surprise at the word "booked" meaning "ran away" surprises
>> me. I would understand the word - in this context - to mean not
>> only ran away, but ran away very quickly: She booked out of
>> here.
>>
>> I am a little surprised that a police officer would use the term
>> since "booked" also means entered into the system after being
>> arrested. The arrest is the action, and the booking is the
>> recording. It would seem to be confusing to say "she booked" on
>> the radio since it could be misunderstood to mean "she was
>> booked".
>>
>> "Booked", in the leaving sense, is not limited to escaping or
>> running away. If I was at a party of the younger set, and asked
>> where so-and-so was, the answer might be "He booked". It would
>> just mean he left. If I was hipper than I am, I might say to my
>> wife "Let's book" meaning "Let's leave".
>
> I'd be interested in seeing your guess about the expression's
> origin, Tony.

Please don't call me Tony.

Anyway, I should imagine the 'booked', as in 'departed', comes from
the days of ocean liners -- 'booked passage' -- which explains the
Chandler connection.

--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
For the intelligent approach to nasty humour, visit:
The Anglo-American Humour (humor) Site
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/mainmenu.htm
-----------------------------------------------------

Mark Wallace

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 4:54:35 AM12/31/02
to

Good grief, no.
I can't remember where *I* wrote stuff, let alone anyone else.

R Fontana

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:28:29 AM12/31/02
to
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, R J Valentine wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:36:30 -0500 R Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> } When I was in
> } seventh grade (1980-1981) many boys (not girls) in my grade started
> } using "Excellent!", and I remember there being an awareness of it
> } being sort of an ironical faddish youth thing of the day.
>
> When was _Wayne's World_ first on _Saturday Night Live_?

Long after that. I think _Wayne's World_ premiered around 1990,
certainly no earlier than 1989. ICLIUBITLOC. Does anyone remember
kids using "Excellent!" before 1980? It occurs to me now that there
was one annoying guy in my high school who continued to use
"Excellent!" through the end of twelfth grade.

When I was in seventh grade and kids started saying "Excellent!", that
was the first season that Eddie Murphy was on _Saturday Night Live_,
and the first season without the Not Ready For Prime Time
Players. That was the season where Murphy did his Velvet Jones (_I
Want To Be A Ho_) character, which I believe must be what first
popularized 'ho' on a national level. This was also the season where
Joe Piscopo did his "I'm from Joizy! Are you from Joizy? What exit?"
sketch, which was also very culturally influential.

Also during that season, there was a sort of imitation of SNL on ABC
on Friday night at 11:30 called _Fridays_, a sketch comedy
show led by Michael Richards, who resurfaced in the 1990s as
"Kramer" on _Seinfeld_. I watched it that year, but I don't remember
whether it was funny. The only other cast member I remember was
Melanie Chartoff, but I see now that Larry David, the co-creator of
_Seinfeld_ (and the model for the character George Costanza) was also
in the cast. I don't think I watched _SCTV_ until 1982 or so, during
the time when it was the greatest comedy show in television history.

Also, some of my earliest memories are of watching _The Carol Burnett
Show_ and laughing hysterically even though I didn't understand any of
it.

Charles Riggs

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:31:49 AM12/31/02
to

I doubt you meant "bend". It might wear down quickly, but so what?
Just get a new one, if you can afford the first one. I suspect it'd
have a pleasant feel to it, when writing. I'm not sure I've ever seen
a pen with a 14 ct gold nib, but I think it'd suit me if I found one.

--
Charles Riggs
chriggs |at| eircom |dot| com

Charles Riggs

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:31:51 AM12/31/02
to
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:28:11 +0100, Simon R. Hughes
<shu...@tromso.online.no> wrote:


>I'd also have to snap that clip off -- it would get in the way.

I'd have to have the clip, for attaching it to my shirt pocket.
Neither of my two Cross clips have ever annoyed me.

Charles Riggs

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:31:52 AM12/31/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:09:30 -0500, R Fontana
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:


>I think I've only heard it on TV and the like, never in real life. My
>impression is that it's relatively archaic or obsolete slang, but then
>I used to say that about 'cool'.

Cool, a word from American English, is not obsolete. It came into
popular use in the late 40s, went out, and has come back again. I hear
it from people in their twenties, fairly frequently, even in Ireland.
The Irish love our hamburgers, too -- they just eat them up -- loath
as Padraig is to admit it.

Charles Riggs

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:31:52 AM12/31/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:52:11 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
<padr...@iol.ie> wrote:

>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:30:38 -0500, Frances Kemmish
>><fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>>We talked about this before (I looked it up - it was in 1999), and most
>>>of the people who knew the usage came from the Midwest. I know someone
>>>from Binghamton who says "book" meaning "move fast", and when we
>>>discussed it in 1999, someone from Buffalo or Rochester also said they
>>>used it.


>>>
>>>It's not archaic, just regional.
>>

>>I plead guilty to being of Midwest origins, but have trouble accepting
>>"book" with this meaning as regional. Another form is "He was really
>>booking" meaning that he was moving fast.
>

>It depends on what size region you have in mind. I'm fairly sure that
>"booked" is not used in Ireland in any of the senses "run away" or
>"escape" or "get out" or "move fast".

Correct. Sorry, but I *do* have my papers now, scary as that thought
is to some around here.

Would the Irish use boogie, as some Americans do, for that meaning? I
don't recall hearing it. It is probably a Black American English term,
but I like it and have used it on occasion.

OK, I'm gonna boogie out of here, man.

Charles Riggs

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:31:54 AM12/31/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:57:52 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
<padr...@iol.ie> wrote:

>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:52:11 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
>><padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>>
>>>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:30:38 -0500, Frances Kemmish
>>>><fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>We talked about this before (I looked it up - it was in 1999), and most
>>>>>of the people who knew the usage came from the Midwest. I know someone
>>>>>from Binghamton who says "book" meaning "move fast", and when we
>>>>>discussed it in 1999, someone from Buffalo or Rochester also said they
>>>>>used it.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's not archaic, just regional.
>>>>
>>>>I plead guilty to being of Midwest origins, but have trouble accepting
>>>>"book" with this meaning as regional. Another form is "He was really
>>>>booking" meaning that he was moving fast.
>>>
>>>It depends on what size region you have in mind. I'm fairly sure that
>>>"booked" is not used in Ireland in any of the senses "run away" or
>>>"escape" or "get out" or "move fast".
>>>
>>

>>In Ireland, or at least in parts of Ireland, the word is heard as
>>"fooked", as in "He fooked out a here, didn't he?"
>
>That's "fucked", the Swiss army vocabulary knife of the inarticulate.

Which some Americans, of a darker shade than you or I, pronounce as
fook, when used in the present tense. Hence the joke, "Focus? Both
us?", which I've related before.

Charles Riggs

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:31:55 AM12/31/02
to

Ha-ha. You have a sense of humour.

Charles Riggs

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:32:04 AM12/31/02
to

Close, but no cigar. The word originated with American jazz musicians
to distinguish cool jazz from hot jazz. Cool jazz must have seen to be
the superior of the two, since cool soon took on its positive sense.

R Fontana

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:42:26 AM12/31/02
to

Very interesting. To me "to split" has always been dead archaic. I
think I associate it mainly with the cartoon series _Scooby Doo, Where
Are You!_. Very interesting. I can remember one high school
classmate of mine who sometimes used "split", but he also used other
archaic expressions associated with past epochs.

Laura F Spira

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:50:04 AM12/31/02
to
R Fontana wrote:
>
> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Pan wrote:

>
> > On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:09:30 -0500, R Fontana
> > <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >I think I've only heard it on TV and the like, never in real life. My
> > >impression is that it's relatively archaic or obsolete slang, but then
> > >I used to say that about 'cool'.
> >
> > You really _are_ a callow youth. :-)
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > P.S. What did you say for "cool"? "Rad"?
>
> Well, you asked, so I better answer. "Rad"? No, of course not. As far
> as I can remember, we had no reason to use any such word, for the most
> part. I mean, it's sort of like the ridiculosity of such words was
> apparent from the get-go. In the case of "cool", the get-go was, as a

> rule, the popular 1970s sitcom about an idealized version of the
> 1950s, _Happy Days_. Speaking of 1970s Fifties-revivalism, one thing
> that divided kids in the late '70s was the popular movie _Grease_. I
> don't know whether "cool" was used in _Grease_, but I have the
> intuition that if a kid liked _Grease_ when he or she was 11 they were
> more likely to use "cool" five or six years later. Needless to say, I
> didn't like _Grease_, which I saw as a bad cultural development. Hey
> C**p, did your kids like _Grease_?

>
> I noticed a gradual increase in youth usage of "cool" during my teenage
> years, from about 1982 to 1987.

<big snip>

I think there are distinct Pondian differences in such words.

When we visited the US with our children (aged 14 and 11) in 1987, the
UK equivalent of whatever was then cool, was, for the 11 year old,
"brilliant". This caused much comment among the relatives and friends of
all ages we stayed with in New York, the Mid-West and California. The 14
year old was already using "ace", which seemed readily understandable
and unremarkable to everyone. These days, they both use "cool" quite
frequently but I have no idea how they spell it.

I am old enough to remember when "swinging" was popular in the UK (as
opposed to "dodgy"). I also remember the puzzlement of my parents on
receiving a postcard from me from Belgium in about 1962, describing the
hotel I was staying in as "grotty".

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Padraig Breathnach

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 6:30:06 AM12/31/02
to
Charles Riggs <chrigg...@eircom.net> wrote:

>Cool, a word from American English, is not obsolete. It came into
>popular use in the late 40s, went out, and has come back again. I hear
>it from people in their twenties, fairly frequently, even in Ireland.
>

I think it is used even more by younger Irish people, those of
secondary school age. Usually to describe mobile phones.

>The Irish love our hamburgers, too -- they just eat them up -- loath
>as Padraig is to admit it.

Not "the Irish"; some of the Irish. Our civilisation is under threat.

PB

Simon R. Hughes

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 6:44:03 AM12/31/02
to
Thus Spake Charles Riggs:

> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:26:49 +0100, Simon R. Hughes
> <shu...@tromso.online.no> wrote:
>
> >Thus Spake david56:
> >> Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>
> >> > Speaking of stationery stores, and to segue back to a previous thread,
> >> > I saw a wondrous thing the other day: a Pilot retractable fountain
> >> > pen. A mere $115.00.
> >>
> >> Oooohhh. At the bottom of this page
> >> http://www.pilotpen.co.uk/whatsnew/new1.htm. I must have one.
> >
> >The 14 ct gold nib is far too soft; I would bend it in a matter of
> >hours. I prefer sprung steel.
>
> I doubt you meant "bend". It might wear down quickly, but so what?
> Just get a new one, if you can afford the first one. I suspect it'd
> have a pleasant feel to it, when writing.

My Cross has a gold nib. If I use it, and I don't much any more, I
often need to turn the pen over and bend the nib back, so that the
gap between the two sides is narrow enough to draw the ink down from
the reservoir. Perhaps it has something to do with my left-
handedness making it necessary to push the pen more than a right-
hander would.

The sprung (blued) steel of my Lamy feels good to write with, it's
just a shame the cartridges are so difficult to get hold of.

> I'm not sure I've ever seen
> a pen with a 14 ct gold nib, but I think it'd suit me if I found one.
--

Simon R. Hughes
<!-- -->

R Fontana

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 7:24:23 AM12/31/02
to

Of course. That's my whole point. "Cool" was a 1950s-ism that died
out during the 1960s and was dead by 1974 when _Happy Days_ was
launched. _Happy Days_ was the sort of sitcom that I think is not as
common today, one that was aimed at all age groups, from very young
children to adults. (Sitcoms today are almost without
exception aimed at the 23-49 age group, or maybe it's narrower than
that, which is why they're so bad.) _Happy Days_ specifically used the
word "cool" as an *archaism*, a slang word that was as dead as "swell"
in the real world of the mid-1970s.

"Cool" was like the varsity jacket that Richie Cunningham wore: a
token of the distant past. It was like a1a, but on a lesser scale. I
think you had to be a kid then to understand how ancient the 1950s and
even the 1960s were to young kids in 1975. I'm sure The Kids
Today[tm] feel the same way about the 1980s and the 1990s. Well, this
must have been part of the appeal of _Happy Days_ to children. I
believe that (along with lots of other features of child-oriented
popular culture) it allowed them to begin to forge a generational
identity entirely distinct from, and even in opposition to, the
previous youth culture of the 1950s and 1960s, which was probably seen
by many as having had a catastrophic cultural effect on American
society in the 1960s. It is of the greatest significance that "cool"
was revived and not a word associated more with the '60s, like,
say, "groovy".

We start to see kids gradually picking up "cool" again in
significant numbers beginning with the age group that would have
enthusiastically watched _Happy Days_ as children. I think when you
look at 1970s popular culture in America and see how pervasive the cult
of Fonzie was among children and how closely associated he was with the
word "cool", the conclusion is inescapable that the revival of "cool"
was begun by Fonzie and _Happy Days_. I don't know of any television
character today with a similar sort of influence, except maybe
Spongebob.

Of course I'm oversimplifying things to some extent.


R Fontana

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 7:30:54 AM12/31/02
to
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Pan wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:50:38 GMT, bwic...@nyc.rr.com (Brian Wickham)
> wrote:
>
> >This really opens a can of worms! I'm older than RF but from the same
> >general area. To me, "cool" was out, since it was used by adult jazz
> >fans only and was associated, humoruosly, with berets and chin
> >whiskers. As a kid we said "weak", 1951ish; "wicked" 1953ish; "cool",
> >a rebirth in the mid 1950s; "boss" very briefly in the late 1950s; and
> >then we spoke English, NYC version mostly, from that time on. "Cool"
> >came back in the early 1960s as the only way to describe the James
> >Bond persona. But that was not a use of "cool" in the street sense.
> >"Cool" had become mainstream by then and was unusable as slang until a
> >new generation came along.
> [snip]
>
> Thanks for addressing this.
>
> My memory was that I and my age-mates used "neat!" and "neato!" until
> I was in 7th grade (1977-78).* From that point on, "cool!" was used,
> and I still use it, though it's now dated slang from the viewpoint of
> the new generation.

Very interesting. The "neato" surprises me, though I seem to remember
my brother (b. 1962) saying "neato-keeno".

> "Awesome!" and, somewhat humorously, "totally awesome!" (especially
> with a stylized accent and cadence) were picked up to a degree from
> Valley Girl talk around 1977-78, too.

That early? I would have thought 1981 or so.

> I don't think New Yorkers ever
> fully domesticated them in normal speech.

Probably not.

> *Full disclosure: I was in Malaysia from 1975-77, so I have no idea
> when the changeover from "neat!" to "cool!" happened.

This is greatly significant. You were in Malaysia precisely during the
years when _Happy Days_ was at the height of its popularity among
kids. I imagine you were able to watch _Kojak_ over there, though.

Maria Conlon

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 7:43:48 AM12/31/02
to
R Fontana wrote:

>...ICLIUBITLOC.

I Could Look It Up But I'm Too Lazy, Old Chum?

Maria

sa...@non.com

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 8:59:22 AM12/31/02
to
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:24:23 -0500, R Fontana
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

>On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 sa...@non.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:36:30 -0500, R Fontana
>> <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > In the case of "cool", the get-go was, as a
>> >rule, the popular 1970s sitcom about an idealized version of the
>> >1950s, _Happy Days_.
>>
>> Nonsense. "Cool" was very common in the fifties. It ranked right up
>> there with "daddyo".
>
>Of course. That's my whole point. "Cool" was a 1950s-ism that died
>out during the 1960s and was dead by 1974 when _Happy Days_ was
>launched.

My error. I took your meaning to be that _Happy Days_ had coined the
meaning.

>We start to see kids gradually picking up "cool" again in
>significant numbers beginning with the age group that would have
>enthusiastically watched _Happy Days_ as children. I think when you
>look at 1970s popular culture in America and see how pervasive the cult
>of Fonzie was among children and how closely associated he was with the
>word "cool", the conclusion is inescapable that the revival of "cool"
>was begun by Fonzie and _Happy Days_.

I agree.

> I don't know of any television character today with a similar sort
> of influence, except maybe Spongebob.

This character has escaped my searching for a few months now. I was
told of it by a nephew, and have wandered the satellite program guide
looking for it, but have yet to see a listing for it. You have piqued
my curiosity.

Larry

No One

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 9:50:58 AM12/31/02
to

"Bermuda999" <bermu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021229211320...@mb-cr.aol.com...
> Mary Shafer Iliff mil...@qnet.com

>
> >Don Aitken wrote:
> >
> >> The "run away" meaning is entirely new to me.
> >
> >It doesn't mean "run away", it means "leave". I was sitting in
> >a meeting when the person holding it said, "Everyone but the
> >members of the Configuration Control Panel can book now" and I
> >booked. I've also heard some of my co-workers sat "I'm booking"
> >as they leave for the day.
> >
> >It's not new, as I've been using it for at least a decade, and
> >probably longer. Let's see, it wasn't new when I was the FTE
> >on AFTI/F-16, making up flight cards with a DECmate II, so that
> >would put it back to some time before about 1992.
>
> The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang:
>
> "book...
> 3. [infl. by BOOG, BOOGIE, v.] to leave.; to go fast; move along. -- also
> constr. with 'it', 'up'."
>
> [snip of cites going back as far as 1974]
>

AHA ... we finally get to a citation for the usage. Thank you.

Actually, this was not meant to be a formal dispatch per se. The particular
officer had been in the radio room turning in the paperwork on recovering
her as an already missing person from the next county south of us, and we
remarked that as she was going to a known juvenile sieve facility she might
stay a whole 10 minutes. (God forbid you should put a lock on the door -
and believe me, the juveniles know how to work the system better than many
adults. This particular facility has 2-3 walkoffs a week, even for court
ordered, as opposed to voluntary, placements.) She had also displayed an
impressive vocabulary of curses and observations about our various and
sundry body parts along with colorful suggestions as to what we might be
able to do with them. Her demeanor led us to believe she would not "get
with the program" anytime soon.

So I basically was telling him that our prior conversation had come true.
Had I been formally dispatching it I would have stated "SIGNAL 144, Oasis
Center, nnnn Some St, 15 Year Old White Female, BLoND, GReeN, Last Seen
Wearing WHiTe shirt, WHiTe shorts, UNKnown Direction Of Travel. BOLO area
for 10-12." Signal 144 is a runaway. BOLO is Be On the Look Out and 10-12
is a person. So he should check the area for her before going to the center
to take yet another missing person report. (Caps show what my notes would
have actually read ... 15 YO WF, BLND, GRN, LSW ...)

As a 50 something person, Hawaii 50 was certainly a part of my younger days
and "Book 'em, Dano" was a catch phrase. A surprise to me in this career is
that we don't use that expression, although I have occasionally mouthed
"patch me through to McGarrett" when transferring phone calls, or speaking
to Officer Garrett. We do use the word "Booking" a lot to mean we are
processing or transporting to the "Booking Room" for processing. Once in
awhile we tell someone that so-and-so's bail will be set after booking is
completed and they do their first appearance. So we do use the word
"booking" a lot, but seldom "booked". (Probably sees a lot more use in
courtrooms, hoosegows and lawyers offices.)

"Boogied" conveys a more lighthearted approach to leaving. "Booked" gives
leaving some urgency.

THANKS,
Bill Stewart
Cape Coral, FL

No One

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 10:19:24 AM12/31/02
to

"Ronald Raygun" <no....@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
news:SWMP9.6936$hL6.47...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> No One wrote:
>
> > Specifically, we had a female juvenile in custody on a missing person
> > charge,
>
> Not answering the original question, sorry, but taking issue
> with "a missing person charge". THIS IS TERRIBLE! Makes it
> sound as though it's a crime to "be missing".
>
>

Actually, it is. Adults and juveniles are treated differently, of course.
A juvenile MUST be in someone's custody, be it an actual parent, foster
parent, ward of the State, what have you. And that holds true through 17
years and 355 days old.

Bill

Aaron J. Dinkin

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 10:42:25 AM12/31/02
to

Please unpique it, if you can. Going out of your way to avoid Spongebob
Squarepants is worth the extra effort it takes. (Although in that respect
it is still outdone by "The Fairly Oddparents".)

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom

(who has an eleven-year-old sister)

rzed

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 11:39:20 AM12/31/02
to

"R Fontana" <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.44.021231...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu...

> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, R J Valentine wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:36:30 -0500 R Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
wrote:
> >
> > } When I was in
> > } seventh grade (1980-1981) many boys (not girls) in my grade started
> > } using "Excellent!", and I remember there being an awareness of it
> > } being sort of an ironical faddish youth thing of the day.
> >
> > When was _Wayne's World_ first on _Saturday Night Live_?
>
> Long after that. I think _Wayne's World_ premiered around 1990,
> certainly no earlier than 1989. ICLIUBITLOC. Does anyone remember
> kids using "Excellent!" before 1980? It occurs to me now that there
> was one annoying guy in my high school who continued to use
> "Excellent!" through the end of twelfth grade.
>

"Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" was released in 1988. The interjection
must have been current before that time.

rzed

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 12:20:20 PM12/31/02
to

"R Fontana" <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.44.021231...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu...

You seem to have a narrow definition of what archaic and current mean, and I
think it's only fair that you state it at some point. When you assert that
"cool" essentially disappeared from use or that "split" is archaic, you seem
to me to mean that these things are (or were) true for a certain age group.
Your claims may be valid for the slang of teenagers (however defined), but
it is not equally valid for the entire population. People do grow out of
their teen years, and some will change their speech patterns entirely, but
for many others, words as common and useful as "split" and "cool" will
remain in their active vocabulary. There is no particular reason to replace
one word that fills a function with another unless one feels the need to
appear to be current with ever-shifting slang. For some, the words have
passed beyond slang and into core vocabulary. Their meaning is understood,
and they adequately express a concept that occasionally must be expressed.

--
rzed

Steve Hayes

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 1:12:39 PM12/31/02
to
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:36:30 -0500, R Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

>On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Pan wrote:
>

>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:09:30 -0500, R Fontana
>> <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >I think I've only heard it on TV and the like, never in real life. My
>> >impression is that it's relatively archaic or obsolete slang, but then
>> >I used to say that about 'cool'.
>>
>> You really _are_ a callow youth. :-)
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> P.S. What did you say for "cool"? "Rad"?
>
>Well, you asked, so I better answer. "Rad"? No, of course not. As far
>as I can remember, we had no reason to use any such word, for the most
>part. I mean, it's sort of like the ridiculosity of such words was

>apparent from the get-go. In the case of "cool", the get-go was, as a


>rule, the popular 1970s sitcom about an idealized version of the

>1950s, _Happy Days_. Speaking of 1970s Fifties-revivalism, one thing
>that divided kids in the late '70s was the popular movie _Grease_. I
>don't know whether "cool" was used in _Grease_, but I have the
>intuition that if a kid liked _Grease_ when he or she was 11 they were
>more likely to use "cool" five or six years later. Needless to say, I
>didn't like _Grease_, which I saw as a bad cultural development. Hey
>C**p, did your kids like _Grease_?

I remember Grease, though I never saw it.

What scares me, though, is that its longer ago since Grease than the fifties
were from Grease.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

R J Valentine

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 1:24:53 PM12/31/02
to

"Of Course" was what came through to me.

--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>

John Dawkins

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 2:06:11 PM12/31/02
to
In article <3e11a1af....@news.sk.sympatico.ca>, sa...@non.com
wrote:

> > I don't know of any television character today with a similar sort
> > of influence, except maybe Spongebob.
>
> This character has escaped my searching for a few months now. I was
> told of it by a nephew, and have wandered the satellite program guide
> looking for it, but have yet to see a listing for it. You have piqued
> my curiosity.

SpongeBob SquarePants appears on Nickleodeon, in an afternoon time slot
where I live in SoCal. Our two-year-old watches him occasionally, but
prefers Thomas the Tank Engine.

--
J.

Steve Hayes

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 2:42:24 PM12/31/02
to
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:50:04 +0000, Laura F Spira
<la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:

>I am old enough to remember when "swinging" was popular in the UK (as
>opposed to "dodgy"). I also remember the puzzlement of my parents on
>receiving a postcard from me from Belgium in about 1962, describing the
>hotel I was staying in as "grotty".

I think "grotty" was popularised by "A hard day's night", which was released
in 1964.

Skitt

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 3:00:18 PM12/31/02
to
Steve Hayes wrote:
> Laura F Spira wrote:

>> I am old enough to remember when "swinging" was popular in the UK (as
>> opposed to "dodgy"). I also remember the puzzlement of my parents on
>> receiving a postcard from me from Belgium in about 1962, describing
>> the hotel I was staying in as "grotty".
>
> I think "grotty" was popularised by "A hard day's night", which was
> released in 1964.

There's no such word in the lyrics of that song.
http://www.merseyworld.com/imagine/lyrics/harddaysnight.htm

MWCD10 has:

Main Entry: grot·ty
Pronunciation: 'grä-tE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): grot·ti·er; -est
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1964
chiefly British : wretchedly shabby : of poor quality

The year fits, but the origin is unknown.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)

R Fontana

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 3:14:50 PM12/31/02
to
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, R J Valentine wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:43:48 -0500 Maria Conlon <mcon...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
> } R Fontana wrote:
> }
> }>...ICLIUBITLOC.
> }
> } I Could Look It Up But I'm Too Lazy, Old Chum?
>
> "Of Course" was what came through to me.

You were correct, sir. Yes.

Bermuda999

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 3:16:11 PM12/31/02
to
Skitt" sk...@attbi.com

>
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>> Laura F Spira wrote:
>
>>> I am old enough to remember when "swinging" was popular in the UK (as
>>> opposed to "dodgy"). I also remember the puzzlement of my parents on
>>> receiving a postcard from me from Belgium in about 1962, describing
>>> the hotel I was staying in as "grotty".
>>
>> I think "grotty" was popularised by "A hard day's night", which was
>> released in 1964.
>
>There's no such word in the lyrics of that song.
>http://www.merseyworld.com/imagine/lyrics/harddaysnight.htm

"A Hard Day's Night" was a song *and* an album *and* a movie. It was three
mints in one.

All were "released in 1964".

John Dawkins

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 4:21:02 PM12/31/02
to
In article <3e11ec52....@news.saix.net>,
haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:50:04 +0000, Laura F Spira
> <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>
> >I am old enough to remember when "swinging" was popular in the UK (as
> >opposed to "dodgy"). I also remember the puzzlement of my parents on
> >receiving a postcard from me from Belgium in about 1962, describing the
> >hotel I was staying in as "grotty".
>
> I think "grotty" was popularised by "A hard day's night", which was released
> in 1964.

According to one reporter, screenwriter Alun Owen invented the slang
"grotty" (short for grotesque) for AHDN (the movie).

--
J.

Richard Maurer

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 5:29:03 PM12/31/02
to
<< [Laura F Spira]

I also remember the puzzlement of my parents on
receiving a postcard from me from Belgium in about 1962, describing the
hotel I was staying in as "grotty".
[end quote] >>

<< [Steve Hayes]


I think "grotty" was popularised by "A hard day's night", which was released
in 1964.

[end quote] >>

<< [Skitt]
MWCD10 has:

Main Entry: grot·ty
Pronunciation: 'grä-tE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): grot·ti·er; -est
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1964
chiefly British : wretchedly shabby : of poor quality

The year fits, but the origin is unknown.

[end quote] >>

<< [James Follett]
We used to have "grotty totty" contests in the 1950s.
[end quote] >>


Since they were both slang,
I wonder if 'grody' is the surviving term here in the US.

-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Skitt

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 6:11:24 PM12/31/02
to

Yabbut, has "grody" really survived? When did you last hear it?

Richard Maurer

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 6:53:42 PM12/31/02
to
[named subthread of History of 'Cool' ctd. (was: Usage of "Booked" not in OED)]

<< [Richard Maurer]


Since they were both slang,
I wonder if 'grody' is the surviving term here in the US.

[end quote] >>

<< [Skitt]


Yabbut, has "grody" really survived? When did you last hear it?

[end quote] >>


It seems firmly implanted, ready to pop out at any time,
should the occasion warrant. I haven't heard it lately,
but then I haven't been in any crawl spaces lately,
nor do I remember any occasions that warrant.

Robert Bannister

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 7:13:56 PM12/31/02
to
R J Valentine wrote:

> I can probably come up with the date that I first heard the word
> "decade" pronounced with the accent on the second syllable. But then
> so can probably half the people on alt.usage.english.
>
I must be in the other half. I can't remember when I first came across
'decade', but everyone I know and have known pronounces with the stress
on the second syllable.


--
Rob Bannister

Pan

unread,
Dec 31, 2002, 7:17:57 PM12/31/02
to
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:50:04 +0000, Laura F Spira
<la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
[snip]

>I am old enough to remember when "swinging" was popular in the UK (as
>opposed to "dodgy"). I also remember the puzzlement of my parents on
>receiving a postcard from me from Belgium in about 1962, describing the
>hotel I was staying in as "grotty".

We use "grody" here, but "gross" is more common.

Michael

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