give three rings

[Harrison Hill]

I've just been asked to "give three rings".

In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)

[Mike Barnes]

Harrison Hill wrote:
> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>
> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)

Context would help, but I'd guess that you've been asked to phone
someone, wait while for three (double) rings, then hang up. It's a
cheapskate signalling system, though I've never heard the exact number
of rings specified.

SWMBO lets me know she's leaving work using that method, so that I can
time the cooking. Or ignore it.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Mr Macaw]

A much more sensible and less disgusting answer than I was thinking. I would have thought your answer was obvious, with the exception that some people might not think of double rings. When I was a kid, my mother and my friend's mother would use that system to mean I'm staying over for dinner, or the other way round. They'd get very angry with each other if the phone was picked up. Nowadays everyone has free calls anyway don't they?

--
The 2 most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

[Janet]

In article <a610185a-864e-4f20...@googlegroups.com>,
harrison...@gmail.com says...

>
> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>
> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)

Send a pre-arranged signal by telephone?

Janet

[Peter Young]

And I used to do that in the days of my late wife's disability, when
she found answering the phone top be difficult.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Os)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Fred]

On 4/03/2016 7:51 a.m., Harrison Hill wrote:
> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>
> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)
>

Could mean ring the doorbell 3 times to identify the caller.

[GordonD]

On 03/03/2016 19:11, Mr Macaw wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 19:02:03 -0000, Mike Barnes
> <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Harrison Hill wrote:
>>> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>>>
>>> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)
>>
>> Context would help, but I'd guess that you've been asked to phone
>> someone, wait while for three (double) rings, then hang up. It's a
>> cheapskate signalling system, though I've never heard the exact number
>> of rings specified.
>>
>> SWMBO lets me know she's leaving work using that method, so that I can
>> time the cooking. Or ignore it.
>
> A much more sensible and less disgusting answer than I was thinking. I
> would have thought your answer was obvious, with the exception that some
> people might not think of double rings.

Double rings because that's the UK phone system. In the US there's a
single long ring.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[Rich Ulrich]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 19:02:03 +0000, Mike Barnes
<mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Harrison Hill wrote:
>> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>>
>> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)
>
>Context would help, but I'd guess that you've been asked to phone
>someone, wait while for three (double) rings, then hang up. It's a
>cheapskate signalling system, though I've never heard the exact number
>of rings specified.

After someone answered the phone after zero rings - MANY
years ago - I stopped assuming that the rings I heard matched
the rings at the other end.

>
>SWMBO lets me know she's leaving work using that method, so that I can
>time the cooking. Or ignore it.

--

Rich Ulrich

[Mr Macaw]

I guess an American hearing the UK system would automatically group them in pairs.

--
You know, sometimes I get the sudden urge to run around naked.
But then I just drink some Windex. It keeps me from streaking.

[Mr Macaw]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 20:58:26 -0000, GordonD <g.d...@btinternet.com> wrote:

I've heard that before when I phone a call centre, which cause me to hang up incase I get charged long distance.

--
Hiroshima '45 Chernobyl '86 Windows '95

[RH Draney]

On 3/3/2016 11:51 AM, Harrison Hill wrote:
> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>
> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)

One Ring to rule them all,
One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

That makes three....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 3:58:32 PM UTC-5, GordonD wrote:

> Double rings because that's the UK phone system. In the US there's a
> single long ring.

Land lines do, but cell phones have "ring tones" and you can put in whatever audio you want, specifying different ones for different callers if you wish.

[Mr Macaw]

We're talking about the noise you hear when you're calling someone and they haven't answered yet.

--
Women are like small children. You bring a new one home and the ones already there resent it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 5:52:46 PM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 22:50:31 -0000, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 3:58:32 PM UTC-5, GordonD wrote:

> >> Double rings because that's the UK phone system. In the US there's a
> >> single long ring.
> > Land lines do, but cell phones have "ring tones" and you can put in whatever audio you want, specifying different ones for different callers if you wish.
>
> We're talking about the noise you hear when you're calling someone and they haven't answered yet.

Haven't you ever seen a cell phone (BrE mobile) even in a movie?

[Mr Macaw]

Yes, but just like landphones, there are two ends to the ring. What you hear when you're calling me, and what I hear when you're calling me. The what you hear when you're calling me is standard across all phones in one country, as it's created at the telephone exchange.

--
Why are there 5 syllables in the word "monosyllabic"?

[GordonD]

The point Peter is making is that the "three rings" arrangement
wouldn't work with a mobile because the tones that you hear if you call
me are not tied in with the audio that my phone emits, so I would be
unable to tell that you had hung up after three rings.

[henh...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 10:51:33 AM UTC-8, Harrison Hill wrote:
> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>
> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)

maybe the following is a common practice. (in the UK)


'prang' phone call -- like a Ping.

http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst46104_Give-me-a-missed-call.aspx


Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:52:01 AM

I have heard this called a 'prang' phone call rather than 'prank', but having googled that I can't find any reference to it so assume it's colloquial.

I would always say 'give me three rings'.

It's a standard idea that most people where I am from would be familiar with - British comedian Peter Kay incorporates it into his stand-up routine - if you google 'Peter Kay three rings' you will see that he claims to still gve his mum three rings when he is home safe.

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 19:02:03 +0000, Mike Barnes wrote:
> Context would help, but I'd guess that you've been asked to phone
> someone, wait while for three (double) rings, then hang up. It's a
> cheapskate signalling system, though I've never heard the exact number
> of rings specified.
>

And, if I'm not mistaken, the number of rings the caller hears may be
different from the number of rings the callee hears.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://BrownMath.com/
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the
/right/ word is ... the difference between the lightning-bug
and the lightning." --Mark Twain

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 19:31:45 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
> And I used to do that in the days of my late wife's disability, when
> she found answering the phone top be difficult.
>

Back in the quaint days of "long distance", WIWAL, making a call out
of the immediate area was quite expensive, so frugal people found it
worth their while to have such prearranged signals.

obAUE: I could say "having signals was worth their while" or "it was
worth their while to have signals", but not "it was worth their while
having signals". I wonder why "it" can't refer forward to a gerund.
Or is that just me, and others would accept any of the three?

[Stan Brown]

LOL. When I saw the subject line, I did think of the Three Rings,
though not quite in the way you are counting.

[Mr Macaw]

But nobody counts them. If I ask you to give me three rings, then I get a call which hangs up before I can answer it, I know it was you.

AND! You wouldn't need that on a mobile, as all mobiles tell you who called.

--
The British government is going to impose a 40% tax on Aspirin.
"Why" you ask?
Well, primarily because it's white and it works.

[Traddict]

"Rich Ulrich" <rich....@comcast.net> a écrit dans le message de groupe de
discussion : rlbhdbtejnq6cgjio...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 19:02:03 +0000, Mike Barnes
> <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Harrison Hill wrote:
>>> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>>>
>>> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)
>>
>>Context would help, but I'd guess that you've been asked to phone
>>someone, wait while for three (double) rings, then hang up. It's a
>>cheapskate signalling system, though I've never heard the exact number
>>of rings specified.
>
> After someone answered the phone after zero rings - MANY
> years ago - I stopped assuming that the rings I heard matched
> the rings at the other end.

It could also be that the person wanted to make a call and picked up the
receiver a nanosecond before their phone rang. Even more amazing can be that
the person precisely wanted to call you and they suddenly hear your voice
before even dialling your number. That's happened to me several times, both
as a caller and callee.

[Mike Barnes]

Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 19:02:03 +0000, Mike Barnes
> <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Harrison Hill wrote:
>>> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>>>
>>> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)
>>
>> Context would help, but I'd guess that you've been asked to phone
>> someone, wait while for three (double) rings, then hang up. It's a
>> cheapskate signalling system, though I've never heard the exact number
>> of rings specified.
>
> After someone answered the phone after zero rings - MANY
> years ago - I stopped assuming that the rings I heard matched
> the rings at the other end.

FWIW in the UK calls can be answered after zero rings, because the
calling line ID is sent before the first ring.

But anyway you're right that there's no correspondence, which is why
specifying an exact number makes no sense.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Over Here, back when people did that, it was usually two rings.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Typically "Unknown" or "Unidentified."

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Mar-04 08:39, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 19:02:03 +0000, Mike Barnes
> <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Harrison Hill wrote:
>>> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>>>
>>> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)
>>
>> Context would help, but I'd guess that you've been asked to phone
>> someone, wait while for three (double) rings, then hang up. It's a
>> cheapskate signalling system, though I've never heard the exact number
>> of rings specified.
>
> After someone answered the phone after zero rings - MANY
> years ago - I stopped assuming that the rings I heard matched
> the rings at the other end.

I used to have the opposite problem. The first ring at my end
corresponded to about the ninth at the caller's end. Impatient people
would hang up without my even knowing anyone was calling me. (And I got
fewer call centre calls, which was the one good thing about it.) This
behaviour changed after I changed phone companies.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Moylan]

Unwanted callers were supposed to bang twice on the pipe.

[RH Draney]

On 3/3/2016 9:39 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2016-Mar-04 07:33, Fred wrote:
>> On 4/03/2016 7:51 a.m., Harrison Hill wrote:
>>> I've just been asked to "give three rings".
>>>
>>> In BrE what have I just been asked to do? :)
>>
>> Could mean ring the doorbell 3 times to identify the caller.
>
> Unwanted callers were supposed to bang twice on the pipe.

Wasn't that the fellow who fell in love with a yeast infection?...r

[Cheryl]

On 2016-03-03 8:30 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 19:31:45 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
>> And I used to do that in the days of my late wife's disability, when
>> she found answering the phone top be difficult.
>>
>
> Back in the quaint days of "long distance", WIWAL, making a call out
> of the immediate area was quite expensive, so frugal people found it
> worth their while to have such prearranged signals.
>

Back in those days, when I was a young girl travelling, one of my aunts
suggested that as an economy measure when I arrived, I should phone home
asking for myself, and my parents should decline to accept the call -
thus finding out without either of us spending any money that I had
arrived safely. My father, who picked up the phone, was not a natural at
duplicity, asked the operator in a startled voice "WHO did you say you
wanted? She must have been used to that sort of thing.

Another time when trying to economize on a telegram (and I guess that
dates me!), I conveyed the information on my flight date, time and
number in the shortest form I could think of. It was perfectly clear to
me, but apparently it took my parents a while to decipher it.


--
Cheryl

[LFS]

On 03/03/2016 23:56, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 19:02:03 +0000, Mike Barnes wrote:
>> Context would help, but I'd guess that you've been asked to phone
>> someone, wait while for three (double) rings, then hang up. It's a
>> cheapskate signalling system, though I've never heard the exact number
>> of rings specified.
>>
>
> And, if I'm not mistaken, the number of rings the caller hears may be
> different from the number of rings the callee hears.
>

We used this method very successfully or many years when anyone in the
family was going off on a journey which might be less safe than usual -
late at night or in bad weather, for example. On saying goodbye, we
would add "three rings" as a reminder. When the only phone in the house
was in the hall, this saved anyone getting out of bed to answer it. We
never noticed a discrepancy in the rings heard by caller and callee.

These days, we send a text.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[bert]

On Friday, 4 March 2016 11:24:25 UTC, Cheryl wrote:
> . . . when trying to economize on a telegram . . .

> I conveyed the information on my flight date, time
> and number in the shortest form I could think of.

This reminded me of a wonderful anecdote about a woman
sending a telegram to her friend with the date and time
of the train she would arrive on. She had condensed it
into eleven words, and the telegraph clerk told her that,
as the basic rate was twelve words for a dollar, she
could add one more word. Okay, she said, put "Mizpah".
The clerk argued that he didn't know the word; there
was a much higher rate if it was a code word; and she
had to tell him what it meant before he could send it
as her twelfth word. It's a Hebrew word, she said, and
it means "The Lord watch between thee and me when we are
absent one from another." The clerk had apoplexy.
--

[Peter Moylan]

<like>

[Peter Young]

I was reminded of two telegram-related stories, both about being
economical with words.

The first was a telegram from a boarding-school pupil who was running
out of money. His telegram to his parents was "SOS LSD RSVP". I can't
remember what the reply was.

Even more economical: G K Chesterton was away from home and wanted to
know how his latest book was selling. His telegram as just "?", and
the publisher's reply was just "!".

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Os)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Lewis]

In message <3a629c5b5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>

I've heard that attributed to Wilde. Of course, everything is.

<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6494297/Ten-famous-telegrams.html>
"The shortest telegram in the English language was from the Irish writer
Oscar Wilde. He was living in Paris and he cabled his publisher in
Britain to see how his new book was doing. The message read: “?” The
publisher cabled back: “!”"

I've also heard it attributed to Victor Hugo

http://everything2.com/title/The+world%2527s+shortest+correspondence
In 1862, Victor Hugo was reportedly on vacation when his novel, Les
Misérables, was published. Curious to know how it was selling, he wired
off a telegram to his publisher.

Whether he wanted to keep costs down, or just didn't feel like writing a
long question is unknown to this writer; nevertheless, Monsieur Hugo
wished to be succinct. (Which is likely something that most readers are
wishing this chronicler would be.) So, he sent out a telegram that would
have been applauded by minimalists everywhere. The telegram consisted of
a single character, reproduced in its entirety as follows: ?.

Unbeknownst to M. Hugo, Les Misérables was doing exceptionally well. In
fact, the entire inital Paris printing had already sold out. Thefore, in
response, the publisher sent back an equally terse message: !.

And that, mesdames et messieurs, is the story of what is arguably the
world's shortest correspondence.



--
'Does he have people put to death?' said Mort. SOMETIMES. THERE ARE
SOME THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO, WHEN YOU'RE A KING.

[Lewis]

In message <djtcbr...@mid.individual.net>

I notice ring differential a lot more now. I often call someone and am
greeted by silence, and then maybe a ring (or not) before the person
answers. "The phone hardly rang!" "Really, it rang 4 times here". Back
in the 70s and 80s it seemed to be 100% accurate.

--
Rid yourself of doubt -- or should you? -George Carlin

[Peter T. Daniels]

Well ... it doesn't _mean_ that; it's the name of the place where that
blessing was given (Gen 31:49).

[Mr Macaw]

It wouldn't be if it was your friend giving you three rings. Unknown is for salesmen.

--
"It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area you just bombed." - U.S. Air Force Pilot training manual

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Peter Young skrev:

> The first was a telegram from a boarding-school pupil who was running
> out of money. His telegram to his parents was "SOS LSD RSVP". I can't
> remember what the reply was.

In the sixties and later that would have meant something other
than was intended.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[charles]

In article <3a629c5b5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,

and there was "peccavi"

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes, but Dalhousie beat this with "vovi".


--
athel

[Peter Young]

And also, "vovi", but I think these two are apocryphal, unfortunately.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Cheryl:

> On 2016-03-03 8:30 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 19:31:45 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
>>> And I used to do that in the days of my late wife's disability, when
>>> she found answering the phone top be difficult.
>>>
>>
>> Back in the quaint days of "long distance", WIWAL, making a call out
>> of the immediate area was quite expensive, so frugal people found it
>> worth their while to have such prearranged signals.
>>
> Back in those days, when I was a young girl travelling, one of my aunts
> suggested that as an economy measure when I arrived, I should phone home
> asking for myself, and my parents should decline to accept the call -
> thus finding out without either of us spending any money that I had
> arrived safely. My father, who picked up the phone, was not a natural at
> duplicity, asked the operator in a startled voice "WHO did you say you
> wanted? She must have been used to that sort of thing.
>
> Another time when trying to economize on a telegram (and I guess that
> dates me!),

Where I grew up (Germany), the telephone operator would date you a
lot more than the telegram. I have never spoken to an operator,
but telegrams weren't completely quaint into my teenage years.

In my early 20s, once or twice I received a "Telebrief"
(tele-letter) instead - faxed from post-office to post-office,
printed and delivered as express letter.

--
Microsoft designed a user-friendly car:
instead of the oil, alternator, gas and engine
warning lights it has just one: "General Car Fault"

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I think that deserves a "snap!". Yours is timed as 17.19.23, mine as
18.19.15, but yours is GMT whereas mine is GMT + 1, so I beat you by 8
seconds.



--
athel

[Peter Young]

<grin>

[RH Draney]

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra....r

[Joe Fineman]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:

> obAUE: I could say "having signals was worth their while" or "it was
> worth their while to have signals", but not "it was worth their while
> having signals". I wonder why "it" can't refer forward to a gerund.
> Or is that just me, and others would accept any of the three?

My usage agrees with yours. In my book, "it" can anticipate a clause or
an infinitive, but nothing else.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: Occasions for being in touch with my emotions are about as :||
||: common as occasions for being in touch with my intestines. :||

[David Kleinecke]

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 2:13:56 PM UTC-8, Joe Fineman wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:
>
> > obAUE: I could say "having signals was worth their while" or "it was
> > worth their while to have signals", but not "it was worth their while
> > having signals". I wonder why "it" can't refer forward to a gerund.
> > Or is that just me, and others would accept any of the three?
>
> My usage agrees with yours. In my book, "it" can anticipate a clause or
> an infinitive, but nothing else.

As in the other thread I accept things other people dont. I find

it was worth their while having signals

quite acceptable.

[Robert Bannister]

I have had telegrams rejected by the post office clerk because my
message was allegedly in code - things like a flight number could be
taken that way by Jobsworth.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[John Varela]

Maybe it has to do with the move to digital switches.

--
John Varela

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Mar-05 01:52, Peter Young wrote:

> Even more economical: G K Chesterton was away from home and wanted to
> know how his latest book was selling. His telegram as just "?", and
> the publisher's reply was just "!".

When I worked for the Post Office delivering telegrams, there were no
punctuation marks.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 1:12:10 AM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2016-Mar-05 01:52, Peter Young wrote:

> > Even more economical: G K Chesterton was away from home and wanted to
> > know how his latest book was selling. His telegram as just "?", and
> > the publisher's reply was just "!".
>
> When I worked for the Post Office delivering telegrams, there were no
> punctuation marks.

"STOP"

[Richard Tobin]

In article <nbdt60$gre$2...@dont-email.me>,

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>> Even more economical: G K Chesterton was away from home and wanted to
>> know how his latest book was selling. His telegram as just "?", and
>> the publisher's reply was just "!".

As someone else mentioned, this is also attributed to Victor Hugo,
and IIRC the Guiness Book of Records used to include that version
under something like "shortest telegraphic communication".

>When I worked for the Post Office delivering telegrams, there were no
>punctuation marks.

I wonder why not, since Morse code has them.

-- Richard

[Charles Bishop]

In article <djt9j6...@mid.individual.net>,

Cheryl <cper...@med.mun.ca> wrote:

> On 2016-03-03 8:30 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> > On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 19:31:45 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
> >> And I used to do that in the days of my late wife's disability, when
> >> she found answering the phone top be difficult.
> >>
> >
> > Back in the quaint days of "long distance", WIWAL, making a call out
> > of the immediate area was quite expensive, so frugal people found it
> > worth their while to have such prearranged signals.
> >
> Back in those days, when I was a young girl travelling, one of my aunts
> suggested that as an economy measure when I arrived, I should phone home
> asking for myself, and my parents should decline to accept the call -
> thus finding out without either of us spending any money that I had
> arrived safely. My father, who picked up the phone, was not a natural at
> duplicity, asked the operator in a startled voice "WHO did you say you
> wanted? She must have been used to that sort of thing.

I remember my parents doing something similar. There were two types of
long distance calls (put through by an operator), station to station,
when anybody that answered the phone would accept the call. The other
was person to person, where you wanted to talk to only one person. Dad,
away, would call mom and ask for Xavier Cugat, who wasn't there, and she
would decline the call, but would know that he had arrived safely.

Ah, the wonders we have now.

>
> Another time when trying to economize on a telegram (and I guess that
> dates me!), I conveyed the information on my flight date, time and
> number in the shortest form I could think of. It was perfectly clear to
> me, but apparently it took my parents a while to decipher it.

021307257800?

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <djupl2...@mid.individual.net>,

Why would they not accept code? Would they have accepted "Peccavi"?

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <nbcqq...@news3.newsguy.com>, RH Draney <dado...@cox.net>
wrote:

Is the place related to Mitzvah (Yiddish)

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <3a629c5b5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

A newspaper reporter needed to know the age of Cary Grant. "How old Cary
Grant?" was sent. He got back "Old Cary Grant fine."

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <dju4a8...@mid.individual.net>,

And I'm not even in the running.

charles, having just sent mine.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Linguistician PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels wrote:

>
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>> When I worked for the Post Office delivering telegrams,
> there were no punctuation marks.
>
> "STOP"
>

Wrong. The word "STOP" is not a punctuation mark.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Peter T. Daniels]

The place name מצפה Mizpah is from the root (ts p h) 'to spy on' and
means 'lookout point.

The Hebrew word מצוה 'commandment' (> Yiddish 'good deed') is from the root (ts w h) 'command'. Not related.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 12:03:35 PM UTC-5, Reinhold {Rey} Aman once again wrongly contradicted:

> Linguist Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Peter Moylan wrote:

> >> When I worked for the Post Office delivering telegrams,
> > there were no punctuation marks.
> > "STOP"
> >
> Wrong. The word "STOP" is not a punctuation mark.

Wow. The sociopath actually explained why its "Wrong" is wrong.

The sequence of letters <STOP> performs the function of the punctuation mark
denoted by the word otherwise spelled with those letters. It does not denote
the word "stop" when used thus in telegrams.

[Peter Moylan]

The 5-bit code (modified Baudot, I think) used in those days did include
codes for comma and period, so there was no technical reason for not
allowing them. I suspect that it was a matter of reliable communication.
A telegram was handwritten on a paper form, and then typed from that by
an operator. (Or they were phoned in, and then handwritten by the person
receiving the phone call.) Flyspecks could easily be lost or
misinterpreted, so perhaps there was a rule that they should be ignored.

While writing the above it occurred to me that there was only a bare
minimum of control codes: null, space, shift in, shift out, carriage
return, line feed, WRU?, and bell. What did the operators use for things
like "start of header", "end of message", etc.? I've forgotten, but
perhaps punctuation symbols were reserved for those purposes.

[Robert Bannister]

No idea. Back when we still had telgrams, post offices were manned or
womanned by fussy old fools.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Unscrupulous text-falsifier PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels wrote:
>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman once again wrongly contradicted:
>

Wrong, you lying & weaseling bitch.
>
>> Linguist Peter T. Daniels wrote: {<-- falsified}
>
>> Linguistician PeteY "Genital Herpes" Daniels wrote: {<-- restored}

>
>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>>> When I worked for the Post Office delivering telegrams,
>>>> there were no punctuation marks.
>
>>> "STOP"
>
>> Wrong. The word "STOP" is not a punctuation mark.
>

> The sequence of letters <STOP> performs the function of the
> punctuation mark
>

That's totally obvious, thus not worthwhile mentioning, and it's totally
*irrelevant* to the main point:

---> The *word* "STOP" is NOT a *punctuation mark*. <---

[Mark Brader]

Robert Bannister:

>> I have had telegrams rejected by the post office clerk because my

>> message was allegedly in code...

Charles Bishop:

> Why would they not accept code?

I suspect that, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, they actually
would have accepted it, but not at the standard rate.

Tom Standage writes in "The Victorian Internet: The Remarkable Story
of the Telegraph and the Nineteenth Century's On-line Pioneers" (1998,
Walker paperback 2007, ISBN 0-8027-1604-0):

# Yet while such codes and ciphers were a boon for users, they were
# extremely inconvenient for telegraph companies. Codes reduced
# their revenue, since fewer words were transmitted, and ciphers
# made life harder for operators, who found it more difficult to
# read and transmit gibberish than messages in everyday language.

(This last point should be obvious. Imagine dictating a message to
someone over the phone. Will you find in more confident that they've
written it down correctly on the first try if you say "Arriving Toronto
Union Station tomorrow 2 pm", or if you say "QQIQO JXJNJ NBEK"? Well,
the same applies if it's being sent by Morse code or similar means.)

# The increased difficulty of transmitting gibberish was recognized
# by the International Telegraph Union (ITU), so when new rules were
# drawn up concerning the use of codes and ciphers, the convention was
# adopted that messages in code would be treated just like messages
# in plain text, provided they used pronounceable words... and
# that no word was more than seven syllables long. Messages in
# cipher... on the other hand, were charged on the basis that five
# characters counted as one word. Since the average length of a
# word in a telegram was more than five letters, this effectively
# meant that messages in cipher were charged at a higher rate.
...
# By 1875, the use of commercial codes are starting to get
# out of hand. Some codes involved some weird words, like
# "CHINESISKSLUTNINGSDON". ...In 1885, the rules were further
# tightened. A limit was imposed of ten letters per word for
# telegrams in code languages, and words had to be genuine words
# in German, English, Spanish, French, Italian, Dutch, Portuguese,
# or Latin. What's more, the sending office could demand proof that
# a word was genuine. Again, new codes were immediately introduced
# in response to the new rules...

> Would they have accepted "Peccavi"?

Well, Latin is on the 1885 list of acceptable languages -- though,
curiously, it's the only one that's not in alphabetal order with
the others.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Don't be evil."
m...@vex.net -- corporate policy, Google Inc.

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Mark Brader]

Charles Bishop:

> I remember my parents doing something similar. There were two types of
> long distance calls (put through by an operator), station to station,
> when anybody that answered the phone would accept the call. The other
> was person to person, where you wanted to talk to only one person.

Or in British usage, a "personal call".

> Dad, away, would call mom and ask for Xavier Cugat, who wasn't there,
> and she would decline the call, but would know that he had arrived
> safely.

Theft of telecommunications, that's what it is.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "What Europe needs is a fresh, unused mind."
m...@vex.net | -- Foreign Correspondent

[Mike Barnes]

Mark Brader wrote:
> Charles Bishop:
>> I remember my parents doing something similar. There were two types of
>> long distance calls (put through by an operator), station to station,
>> when anybody that answered the phone would accept the call. The other
>> was person to person, where you wanted to talk to only one person.
>
> Or in British usage, a "personal call".

I didn't know that those two types of long-distance calls ever existed
in the UK, so I've never heard that use of the term "personal call".
Perhaps it was before my time. Meanwhile, in my time, "personal call"
actually refers to using a business line for personal matters.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Katy Jennison]

Very similar was a "reverse charge" call. The operator would say "James
Sprocket is calling: will you accept the charge?" Mr and Mrs Sprocket
would know that their son Jim had arrived wherever he was going, and
would refuse to accept the charge, ending the call.

--
Katy Jennison

[GordonD]

On 06/03/2016 06:11, Mark Brader wrote:

> Well, Latin is on the 1885 list of acceptable languages -- though,
> curiously, it's the only one that's not in alphabetal order with
> the others.
>

Is that a typo for "alphabetical" or is it actually a word in CanE?
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[CDB]

Not much help telling "?" from "!", anyway.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Looking at a couple of telegrams from the 1940, the "header" items were
in a standard order separated by spaces.

A (wireless) telegram from my Uncle Alan in England to his mother in
Australia starts:

LBS1099 READING 13 11 1250PM

The preprinted text on the form identifies those as

No. Office of Origin No of Words Date Time

So it was
telegram number: LBS1099
from: READING [in England]
number of words: 13
date: 11 [month and year (April 1942) implied]
time: 1250PM

The there was the postal address of the recipient. The text of the
message was:

GLT MRS DUNCANSON CHATSWOODNSW..
FONDEST MOTHERS DAY GREETINGS FEELING FINE LOVE ALAN
DUNCANSON....

The date stamp on the form received by Mrs Duncanson was 12 April 1942.

That message was received and delivered in Australia by Amalgamated
Wireless (Australasia) Limited ("Direct wireless services to England,
Canada, Pacific islands and ships at sea") incorporated in NSW.

That use of ".." and "...." is unfamiliar to me.

He was in the Royal Australian Air Force serving with the British RAF at
the time. He died 5 months later in North Africa. The telegram to his
father in Australia from the authorities in Australia used the
conventional "STOP" to separate sentences. That telegram was handled by
the Commonwealth of Australia Postmaster General's Department.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 11:27:12 +0000, GordonD <g.d...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

>On 06/03/2016 06:11, Mark Brader wrote:
>
>> Well, Latin is on the 1885 list of acceptable languages -- though,
>> curiously, it's the only one that's not in alphabetal order with
>> the others.
>>
>
>Is that a typo for "alphabetical" or is it actually a word in CanE?

That nicely illustrates a point I was about to make. Most English words
have considerable "redundancy". They can be understood even wen
missspeled. Using strings of characters that gain a completely different
meaning if even a single letter is omitted or replaced by another is
asking for trouble.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:39:11 AM UTC-5, Katy Jennison wrote:

> Very similar was a "reverse charge" call. The operator would say "James
> Sprocket is calling: will you accept the charge?" Mr and Mrs Sprocket
> would know that their son Jim had arrived wherever he was going, and
> would refuse to accept the charge, ending the call.

"Reverse the charges" was colloquial for "call collect" ["collect" is an adverb
here], back when long-distance calls were paid for by time and distance.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Peter Duncanson [BrE] skrev:

> That nicely illustrates a point I was about to make. Most English words
> have considerable "redundancy".

I presume that you know of the text examples where only the first
two and last two letters are placed correctly. Even with only one
letter in either place one can read the text albeit not as fast
as a normal text.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

>>> Well, Latin is on the 1885 list of acceptable languages -- though,
>>> curiously, it's the only one that's not in alphabetal order with
>>> the others.

Gordon Davie:

>> Is that a typo for "alphabetical" or is it actually a word in CanE?

Typo.

Peter Duncanson:

> That nicely illustrates a point I was about to make. Most English words
> have considerable "redundancy".

Oddly enough, that was also part of the point of my message.
Sometimes it's Usenet threads that have considerable redundancy!
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I can't tell from this... whether you're
m...@vex.net | a wise man or a wise guy." --Ted Schuerzinger

[Mark Brader]

Peter Young:

>>> Even more economical: G K Chesterton was away from home and wanted to
>>> know how his latest book was selling. His telegram as just "?", and
>>> the publisher's reply was just "!".

No.

Richard Tobin:

> As someone else mentioned, this is also attributed to Victor Hugo,
> and IIRC the Guiness Book of Records used to include that version
> under something like "shortest telegraphic communication".

No. "Shortest correspondence". Letters or postcards, not telegrams.
See e.g. the 1991 US paperback edition. The date was 1862, the
publisher was Hurst & Blackett, and the novel was "Les Miserables".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I'm pleased to have my own pothole number..."
m...@vex.net | --Claudia Bloom

[Mark Brader]

Peter Duncanson:

> A (wireless) telegram from my Uncle Alan in England to his mother in

> Australia... The text of the message was:

> GLT MRS DUNCANSON CHATSWOODNSW..
> FONDEST MOTHERS DAY GREETINGS FEELING FINE LOVE ALAN
> DUNCANSON....

"GLT"?
--
Mark Brader "[It] was the kind of town where they spell
Toronto trouble TRUBIL, and if you try to correct them,
m...@vex.net they kill you." -- Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid

[James Hogg]

Mark Brader wrote:
> Peter Duncanson:
>> A (wireless) telegram from my Uncle Alan in England to his mother in
>> Australia... The text of the message was:
>
>> GLT MRS DUNCANSON CHATSWOODNSW..
>> FONDEST MOTHERS DAY GREETINGS FEELING FINE LOVE ALAN
>> DUNCANSON....
>
> "GLT"?

Greetings Letter Telegram
according to the Penguin Dictionary of Abbreviations

--
James

[Robin Bignall]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 08:54:19 +0800, Robert Bannister

They still are, to a large degree.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Things vary. My experience is different.

[Mark Brader]

Peter Duncanson:
>>> A (wireless) telegram from my Uncle Alan in England to his mother in
>>> Australia... The text of the message was:

>>> GLT MRS DUNCANSON CHATSWOODNSW..
>>> FONDEST MOTHERS DAY GREETINGS FEELING FINE LOVE ALAN
>>> DUNCANSON....

Mark Brader:
>> "GLT"?

James Hogg:

> Greetings Letter Telegram
> according to the Penguin Dictionary of Abbreviations

If that's it then it sounds like a classification of the telegram that
belongs in the header, not one the 13 words charged for in the message
body. Peter?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "E-mail is idiot-proof. (I know this because I have
m...@vex.net | received E-mail from idiots.)" -- Beppi Crosariol

[Robert Bannister]

I can remember making "person to person" calls in the past, but I have
long forgotten the details. I can't even remember whether it was in
England or Australia, but I'm pretty sure they were a) on the advice of
the person I was calling and b) to a large concern (business or govt.
dept.) where I might otherwise get routed to somebody who had no idea
what I was about to talk about. Definitely long distance, but not, I
think, international.

[RH Draney]

Not according to acronymfinder.com, though, where the exhaustive list of
expansions is:

Gebäudeleittechnik (German)
Golden Lion Tamarin
Global Leadership Team
Gestion Logistique et Transport (French)
Global Technology Center (HSBC, Pune, India)
Green Leaf Threshing (tobacco processing)
Großladungsträger (German)
Guided Light Transit
Grundlagentraining (German)
Google Language Tools (translation tools)
General Loss Tree
Gay & Lesbian Times
Gay, Lesbian, Transgender
Glucose Loading Test (biology)
Goal-Line Technology (soccer)
Good Luck Trading (various organiztions)
Greenville Little Theatre (Greenville, SC)
Gutless Little Twerp

none of which I'd be inclined to use to begin a telegram to my mother....r

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Mar-07 10:34, Mark Brader wrote:
> Peter Duncanson:
>>>> A (wireless) telegram from my Uncle Alan in England to his mother in
>>>> Australia... The text of the message was:
>
>>>> GLT MRS DUNCANSON CHATSWOODNSW..
>>>> FONDEST MOTHERS DAY GREETINGS FEELING FINE LOVE ALAN
>>>> DUNCANSON....
>
> Mark Brader:
>>> "GLT"?
>
> James Hogg:
>> Greetings Letter Telegram
>> according to the Penguin Dictionary of Abbreviations
>
> If that's it then it sounds like a classification of the telegram that
> belongs in the header, not one the 13 words charged for in the message
> body. Peter?

If that is the case -- and I'm inclined to agree with you -- then the
".." would mean "end of header" and the "...." would be "end of message".

Interesting that CHATSWOODNSW is all one word.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <k5KdnQuNDdvCV0bL...@giganews.com>,

m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

> Charles Bishop:
> > I remember my parents doing something similar. There were two types of
> > long distance calls (put through by an operator), station to station,
> > when anybody that answered the phone would accept the call. The other
> > was person to person, where you wanted to talk to only one person.
>
> Or in British usage, a "personal call".
>
> > Dad, away, would call mom and ask for Xavier Cugat, who wasn't there,
> > and she would decline the call, but would know that he had arrived
> > safely.
>
> Theft of telecommunications, that's what it is.

Statute of Limitations, is what we's got.

--
charles

[Tony Cooper]

I remember making person-to-person calls. I dialed the Operator and
asked to place a person-to-person call to (name) at (number). When
the call was put through, the Operator would state that she had a
person-to-person call for (name).

In our house, the call was placed to "Rudolph Cooper". I'm quite sure
the Operator knew it was a "Safe Arrival" call because once my mother
accepted the call stating she was "Rudolph" because she had an
important message for me. The Operator was clearly surprised that
"Rudolph" was female.

Rudolph was the family Schnauzer.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[James Hogg]

Google shows some examples:

http://atlantic-cable.com/Article/SayItByCable/Social-Telegram.jpg
http://atlantic-cable.com/CableCos/Services/CW_GLT_Telegram_Yeoville.JPG
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/Alphaomegaphilately3/W%20Series/W80/7991_zpsqu6g6vf7.jpg

--
James

[GordonD]

On 06/03/2016 23:34, Mark Brader wrote:
> Peter Duncanson:
>>>> A (wireless) telegram from my Uncle Alan in England to his mother in
>>>> Australia... The text of the message was:
>
>>>> GLT MRS DUNCANSON CHATSWOODNSW..
>>>> FONDEST MOTHERS DAY GREETINGS FEELING FINE LOVE ALAN
>>>> DUNCANSON....
>
> Mark Brader:
>>> "GLT"?
>
> James Hogg:
>> Greetings Letter Telegram
>> according to the Penguin Dictionary of Abbreviations
>
> If that's it then it sounds like a classification of the telegram that
> belongs in the header, not one the 13 words charged for in the message
> body. Peter?
>

Also that the sender's surname was included (and presumably charged
for) in a *Mother's Day* telegram.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <yrqdneqxBbwDDkHL...@giganews.com>,

Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:

>Richard Tobin:
>> As someone else mentioned, this is also attributed to Victor Hugo,
>> and IIRC the Guiness Book of Records used to include that version
>> under something like "shortest telegraphic communication".

>No. "Shortest correspondence". Letters or postcards, not telegrams.
>See e.g. the 1991 US paperback edition. The date was 1862, the
>publisher was Hurst & Blackett, and the novel was "Les Miserables".

That would make sense. I'm remembering it from the early 1970s.

-- Richard

[Richard Tobin]

In article <bc8387fb-f475-4312...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>"Reverse the charges" was colloquial for "call collect" ["collect" is
>an adverb here], back when long-distance calls were paid for by time
>and distance.

The official name in Britain was (and perhaps still is) "transferred
charge call".

Here is an extract from Hansard listing proposed prices for
telephone calls in 1968, when the telephone service was
still provided by the Post Office:

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1968/apr/10/post-office-charges

It mentions "personal calls" too.

-- Richard

[Stan Brown]

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:50:29 +0000 (UTC), Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <bc8387fb-f475-4312...@googlegroups.com>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >"Reverse the charges" was colloquial for "call collect" ["collect" is
> >an adverb here], back when long-distance calls were paid for by time
> >and distance.
>
> The official name in Britain was (and perhaps still is) "transferred
> charge call".

WIWAL, my grandparents would not "call collect" or ask the operator
for a collect call, but would ask to ""reverse the charges".

Do collect calls (under whatever name) even exist any more, or have
they gone the way of the phone booth?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://BrownMath.com/
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the
/right/ word is ... the difference between the lightning-bug
and the lightning." --Mark Twain

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 6:52:58 AM UTC-5, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:50:29 +0000 (UTC), Richard Tobin wrote:
> > In article <bc8387fb-f475-4312...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> > >"Reverse the charges" was colloquial for "call collect" ["collect" is
> > >an adverb here], back when long-distance calls were paid for by time
> > >and distance.
> > The official name in Britain was (and perhaps still is) "transferred
> > charge call".
>
> WIWAL, my grandparents would not "call collect" or ask the operator
> for a collect call, but would ask to ""reverse the charges".

Wow. I guess he does still not read what I write, even when he quotes it
at the beginning of his own message.

> Do collect calls (under whatever name) even exist any more, or have
> they gone the way of the phone booth?

Do you suppose prisons have now taken to paying for the calls made by
inmates to their families?

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 06:52:55 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:50:29 +0000 (UTC), Richard Tobin wrote:
>> In article <bc8387fb-f475-4312...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> >"Reverse the charges" was colloquial for "call collect" ["collect" is
>> >an adverb here], back when long-distance calls were paid for by time
>> >and distance.
>>
>> The official name in Britain was (and perhaps still is) "transferred
>> charge call".
>
>WIWAL, my grandparents would not "call collect" or ask the operator
>for a collect call, but would ask to ""reverse the charges".
>
>Do collect calls (under whatever name) even exist any more, or have
>they gone the way of the phone booth?

I think they are still in effect when a prison/jail inmate makes a
telephone call. That may be due to the system used by the
prison/jail, not the carrier.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

It seems that in the UK, England at least, a prisoner receives a weekly
allowance of money that can be spent on various things including phone
calls. The money is kept in an account. It is not cash.

http://www.firsttimeinprison.co.uk/contacting-the-outside-world/

Phone calls

The way you phone people from prison (right from the start – no
exceptions, no “one phone call allowed”, nothing like that) is by
going to one of the public phones in the corridor or wing, which are
operated using a special PIN number.
....
....

http://www.firsttimeinprison.co.uk/buying-goods-in-prison/

Buying goods in Prison

The way you buy stuff in prison is through a system called
“canteen”. This is a form you get on the same day each week which
tells you how much you are allowed to spend, and has a list of items
you can buy.

Things you can buy on canteen include phone credit, stamps, writing
paper, chocolate bars, biscuits, cereal, some tinned stuff, some
fruit, toiletries. It’s not a bad selection initially but becomes
very monotonous. The prices are similar to that of a supermarket
economy brand generally so they’re quite cheap.

You are allowed to spend initially about £15 per week (if you have
it, see below) plus your “wages” (you get paid about £1 a day for
being in prison).
....
....

[Jerry Friedman]

On 3/5/16 9:45 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:

[signaling safe arrival]

> I remember my parents doing something similar. There were two types of
> long distance calls (put through by an operator), station to station,
> when anybody that answered the phone would accept the call. The other

> was person to person, where you wanted to talk to only one person. Dad,

> away, would call mom and ask for Xavier Cugat, who wasn't there, and she
> would decline the call, but would know that he had arrived safely.

...

Obaue: Did he say "Zavier" or "Exavier"?

One time when I bought some food last month, the cashier's name tag said
"Xzavier".

--
Jerry Friedman

[CDB]

"Gutless little twerp" could be a familiar endearment.

[David Kleinecke]

Gilligan, maybe.

[Robin Bignall]

In this day and age I wouldn't be surprised to find that most prisons
had a whole bunch of prepaid "burner" mobile phones floating around, or
being held by a prisoner who rented them out. I thought I read recently
that drones had been used to drop packages of burners into some prison,
and that there were plans to install equipment to stop mobiles from
getting a signal in or near prisons.

[Snidely]

Lo, on the 3/7/2016, Robin Bignall did proclaim ...

Whether or not there are phones in prison that are not legitimate and
authorized, there *are* legitimate ways for inmates to make phone
calls. In the US, some jails and/or prisons use a contractor to run
that service. At least one such contractor is located in Texas, but
supports facilities that are not in Texas. And the dialing of the
destination number is handled by their machines, as is the greeting for
the destined recipient ("Press 1 to accept this call", provided your
credit card number is on file.)

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl