Xena Killed Callisto - She Deserved To Die
guardian
BDangelico wrote in message
<19990401201820...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>Quick question: In Sacrifice II, if, after Gabrielle supposedly died, ARES
had
>said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started
laughing,
>do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had
killed
>Callisto? Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN
COLD
>BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto
just
>because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right? From what
I've
>read, it sounds like a 'YES.' But I disagree. Xena didn't kill Callisto
just be
>cuz she was saying ha-ha your friend died, Xena killed her because she knew
she
>DESERVED to die. That's it.
>
>BD
How can you kill someone that has already been killed/died two or three
other times before that?(In quicksand---in lava etc)
Lazarus
>
> Quick question: In Sacrifice II, if, after Gabrielle supposedly died, ARES had
> said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started laughing,
> do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had killed
> Callisto?
In the condition Xena was in, I think there is a chance she may have
very well killed Ares, but it's a 50 50 thing. She might have simply
started fighting him, or she might have killed him.
Lets just say your right though, and Xena killed Callisto in revenge for
her killing Solan, and Gabbys boyfriend, and revenge of killing a loved
one is a justifiable cause. Then you must justify Callisto's mission as
well, in killing Xena. Xena was responsible for Callistos familly
beiung burned to death, don't you justify that?
> Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN COLD
> BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto just
> because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right?
Lets say your right, and consider the highly unlikely possibilty that
Xena did kill Callisto for things Callisto did in the past, and because
she thought it was for the greater good, it still doesn't give her an
excuse to kill Callisto, maybe if Callisto said something like "I'm
going to kill Gabrielle" or something like that, then she would have
reason, but you can't kill people because you decide it might be for the
greater good, the past doesn't determine that, it only gives us ideas of
what *might* happen; Callisto *might* have been a menace to society had
Xena not killed her, Callisto *might* have become a nun for all we
know. The fact remains, we don't know whats going to happen, until we
have proof. If Callisto had said she was going to burn down more
villages, then Xena would have had the right to kill her, or if Callisto
lunged at Xena or Gabrielle, or something like that, Xena was not
defending *anything* Xena was not defending the greater good, and even
if she thought she was she still doesn't have enough proof that killing
Callisto would be for the greater good.
Nobody knew what would become of Xena, she on the path to becoming a
world dictator far worse then hitler when we first encountered her, she
made Callistos bad deeds look like a bad joke; and yet she changed after
a series of episodes. We will never know if that might have happened to
Callisto or not, because Xena killed her. It's sad actually, somebody
gave Xena a chance, and then Xena repays that by not even lifting a
finger to help Callisto, all Xena did was throw her in jail and say "I'm
sorry"...not very helpfull I would say. The least Xena could have done
is stay with Callisto and talk to her while she was in jail for a few
weeks, and try to work things out with her, after all the whole quest of
XWP is her trying make amends for her past misdeeds...
> From what I've
> read, it sounds like a 'YES.' But I disagree. Xena didn't kill Callisto just be
> cuz she was saying ha-ha your friend died, Xena killed her because she knew she
> DESERVED to die. That's it.
>
> BD
We can't take it into our hands as to who we think deserves to die, and
kill them, and have it be justified...don't you understand that? If
Callisto had done something like tried to stab Gabrielle, and Xena
killed Callisto to save Gabrielle then it would be a justified kill, but
just determing whether somebody deserves to die or not is not a good
enough reason to kill somebody.
-lazarus
LadyJen
ledge with Hope and that is what got her in trouble. If she had kept her
mouth shut she would have been out of that anger shot.
--
Jen
"That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!"
OmegaMan69 <omega...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990401202319...@ng41.aol.com...
> >From: bdang...@aol.com (BDangelico)
> >Date: 4/1/99 6:18 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <19990401201820...@ng-fd1.aol.com>
> >
> >Quick question: In Sacrifice II, if, after Gabrielle supposedly died,
ARES
> >had
> >said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started
> >laughing,
> >do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had
> >killed
> >Callisto? Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN
COLD
> >BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto
> >just
> >because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right? From what
I've
> >read, it sounds like a 'YES.' But I disagree. Xena didn't kill Callisto
just
> >be
> >cuz she was saying ha-ha your friend died, Xena killed her because she
knew
> >she DESERVED to die. That's it.
>
>
> Of course Ares has enough brains not to taunt Xena, or anyone else,
> with a deadly (to him) weapon. If nothing else can be said for Ares,
> he has a very good sense of self preservation. Now I'm not saying
> Callisto is some dumb blonde, but she did have a tendancy to let her
> emotions get in the way of her better judgement.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Kwame Phillips-Solomon
BDangelico <bdang...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990401201820...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
> Quick question: In Sacrifice II, if, after Gabrielle supposedly died, ARES
had
> said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started
laughing,
> do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had
killed
> Callisto? Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN
COLD
> BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto
just
> because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right? From what
I've
> read, it sounds like a 'YES.' But I disagree. Xena didn't kill Callisto
just be
> cuz she was saying ha-ha your friend died, Xena killed her because she
knew she
> DESERVED to die. That's it.
>
Logically speaking.
You sir are an asshole.
Kwame Phillips-Solomon
Lazarus <yod...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:370428...@yahoo.com...
> BDangelico wrote:
> >
> > Quick question: In Sacrifice II, if, after Gabrielle supposedly died,
ARES had
> > said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started
laughing,
> > do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had
killed
> > Callisto?
>
> In the condition Xena was in, I think there is a chance she may have
> very well killed Ares, but it's a 50 50 thing. She might have simply
> started fighting him, or she might have killed him.
>
> Lets just say your right though, and Xena killed Callisto in revenge for
> her killing Solan, and Gabbys boyfriend, and revenge of killing a loved
> one is a justifiable cause. Then you must justify Callisto's mission as
> well, in killing Xena. Xena was responsible for Callistos familly
> beiung burned to death, don't you justify that?
>
> > Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN COLD
> > BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed
Callisto just
> > because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right?
>
> > From what I've
> > read, it sounds like a 'YES.' But I disagree. Xena didn't kill Callisto
just be
> > cuz she was saying ha-ha your friend died, Xena killed her because she
knew she
> > DESERVED to die. That's it.
> >
> > BD
>
> We can't take it into our hands as to who we think deserves to die, and
> kill them, and have it be justified...don't you understand that? If
> Callisto had done something like tried to stab Gabrielle, and Xena
> killed Callisto to save Gabrielle then it would be a justified kill, but
> just determing whether somebody deserves to die or not is not a good
> enough reason to kill somebody.
Am I the only one who remembers that Callisto's requested payment for
helping Xena was oblivion? I think that bumps Xena down from a Manson to a
Karvorkian.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: Lets just say your right though, and Xena killed Callisto in revenge for
: her killing Solan, and Gabbys boyfriend, and revenge of killing a loved
: one is a justifiable cause. Then you must justify Callisto's mission as
: well, in killing Xena. Xena was responsible for Callistos familly
: beiung burned to death, don't you justify that?
No. First, Xena never ordered that fire, it was an accident. Next,
Xena reformed herself, which may not indeminify her but it shouldn't carry
with it the sentence of death. Next, Callisto's methods in getting to Xena
were about as disgusting, if not more (though less in terms of degree),
than Xena's methods as a warlord.
:> Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN COLD
:> BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto just
:> because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right?
: Lets say your right, and consider the highly unlikely possibilty that
: Xena did kill Callisto for things Callisto did in the past, and because
: she thought it was for the greater good, it still doesn't give her an
: excuse to kill Callisto, maybe if Callisto said something like "I'm
: going to kill Gabrielle" or something like that, then she would have
: reason, but you can't kill people because you decide it might be for the
: greater good, the past doesn't determine that, it only gives us ideas of
: what *might* happen; Callisto *might* have been a menace to society had
: Xena not killed her, Callisto *might* have become a nun for all we
: know.
Look, this argument is getting old, this one about people not
KNOWING what would have happened in the future. That's absolute bullshit.
The past is ALL YOU HAVE to make such a determination, as well as anything
you find out in the present (which becomes the past at a surprisingly fast
rate). Callisto ALREADY WAS a menace to society, ALREADY HAD been given a
chance to reform herself, had ALREADY PROVEN that she didn't care about
life, hers or anyone else's. Callisto was a MONSTER and could not be
allowed to roam free.
I don't care if she was destined to become Mother-fragging-Teresa
next week, at the time of her death she WAS a demonstrably unreformable
criminal with a penchant for killing on a whim. That cannot be tolerated
in any civilized society and she HAD to be put down.
How is it that you can't see this? Would you have Jeffrey Dahmer
set free because he wasn't eating anyone DURING HIS TRIAL? Would you have
Charles Manson let go if you didn't know what his next moves were? Are
criminals convicted and sentenced based on anything OTHER THAN the past?
Criminal psychologists observe inmates, and look at their past histories,
to determine whether they are a menace to society and should be kept
locked up. In the Xenaverse they don't HAVE criminal psychologists, so
they have to rely on their own judgement to decide if someone is beyond
salvage. That's what happened to Callisto. Badabing badaboom. End of
story.
: The fact remains, we don't know whats going to happen, until we
: have proof.
Proof? Surely you jest. I think the best method is "reasonable
doubt" rather than absolute proof. You don't wait for someone you think is
going to kill you to whip out a sword and start swinging, you take steps
to keep them from even STARTING.
: If Callisto had said she was going to burn down more
: villages,
Callisto's not that stupid. Give your potential executioner an
excuse? Don't be daft.
: then Xena would have had the right to kill her, or if Callisto
: lunged at Xena or Gabrielle, or something like that, Xena was not
: defending *anything* Xena was not defending the greater good, and even
: if she thought she was she still doesn't have enough proof that killing
: Callisto would be for the greater good.
Sorry, but I fully expect to find your body floating off a pier
somewhere someday simply because you are way too tolerant. You wouldn't
turn to the cops if someone was chasing you down the street because you
wouldn't have PROOF that they were going to stab you with that knife. You
wouldn't call the fire department because you didn't have proof that the
smoke you were smelling wasn't from the smelting plant across the city. If
we waited around for PROOF of everything, we'd never get anywhere. All you
have is the past, the present, and whatever you can figure out from them.
If Callisto wanted to mend her ways in the future, she should have
let someone know about it. If something isn't said, it isn't known. And
since we can only deal with the past, Callisto would have condemned
herself with her silence. Too bad.
: Nobody knew what would become of Xena, she on the path to becoming a
: world dictator far worse then hitler when we first encountered her, she
: made Callistos bad deeds look like a bad joke; and yet she changed after
: a series of episodes.
Callisto was in a series of episodes and she changed, too...she
got worse and more powerful. The story of Callisto is one of a downward
slide into madness, despair, and un-fulfilled goals. Her story may have
been a tragic one, but not an excusable one.
: We will never know if that might have happened to
: Callisto or not, because Xena killed her.
And a good thing, too.
: It's sad actually, somebody
: gave Xena a chance, and then Xena repays that by not even lifting a
: finger to help Callisto,
Bull.
: all Xena did was throw her in jail and say "I'm
: sorry"...not very helpfull I would say.
The effort was made, Callisto was unreceptive. Rather than beat
her head against a brick wall (much like I'm doing with this message
thread), Xena decided to move on.
: The least Xena could have done
: is stay with Callisto and talk to her while she was in jail for a few
: weeks,
Excuse me? A few WEEKS? What justice system do you think you're
dealing with here, ours? Callisto would have been tried in one day,
executed the next, that's how justice seems to work in the Xenaverse.
: and try to work things out with her, after all the whole quest of
: XWP is her trying make amends for her past misdeeds...
*sigh* Xena tried, Callisto unreceptive, you know the drill.
: We can't take it into our hands as to who we think deserves to die, and
: kill them, and have it be justified...don't you understand that?
Of course we can't...in OUR world. In the Xenaverse might makes
right. In the Xenaverse, if someone attacks you, you are in your rights to
kill them. Callisto had attacked Xena on more than on occasion. She gave
up her right to live long ago. In the Xenaverse, justice is nebulous,
changes every time you cross a border, doesn't even exist in many places.
Callisto wasn't under anyone's protection beyond the good faith of those
she was with, good faith that was stretched to its limit and beyond. She
should have known better.
: If
: Callisto had done something like tried to stab Gabrielle, and Xena
: killed Callisto to save Gabrielle then it would be a justified kill, but
: just determing whether somebody deserves to die or not is not a good
: enough reason to kill somebody.
Your own version of morality, ethics, honor, and justice aren't at
play here. We're talking about the Xenaverse, not OUR world. And in the
Xenaverse, what you seem to believe is NOT the reigning belief. Deal with
it.
------------------
The Totally Unofficial Loryn Locklin Fan Site
http://members.tripod.com/~Tark_Davin/index.html
BDangelico
said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started laughing,
do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had killed
BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto just
OmegaMan69
>Date: 4/1/99 6:18 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <19990401201820...@ng-fd1.aol.com>
>
Alleigh
>Quick question: In Sacrifice II, if, after Gabrielle supposedly died, ARES had
>said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started laughing,
>do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had killed
>Callisto? Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN COLD
>BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto just
>because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right? From what I've
>read, it sounds like a 'YES.' But I disagree. Xena didn't kill Callisto just be
>cuz she was saying ha-ha your friend died, Xena killed her because she knew she
>DESERVED to die. That's it.
I think it had everything to do with it being Callisto - I don't think
her reaction would of been the same if Ares said it and besides Ares
wouldn't be that suicidal - I think Callisto knew what Xena would do
when she said what she did - but Xena was just as bad as Callisto and
Herc helped her.
<remove the REMOVETHIS to reply by e-mail>
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: I think we need to tease apart the issue of capital punishment from the issue of
: stopping people who are an immense danger.
: We don't do this in quite a few other places. You're in danger of losing the
: majority of Australians, if you presume capital punishment in the real world. We
: might feel like doing it, but the majority of us do not think that it should actually
: be done.
To be honest, I'm not an advocate of capital punishment
myself...in the real world. I'm simply arguing that, as far as the rules
of the Xenaverse are concerned, capital punishment seems to be the rule
rather than the exception.
If Callisto had existed in our day, she might still have been
executed (in the 'States, at least. Like those guys who started the
Oklahoma City bombing, Callisto is guilty of mass murder) but if I were
the judge I'd put her in a mental institution for _extensive_ treatment,
or possibly life in prison without the possibility of parole. (This is, of
course, assuming that she wasn't a _god_ like she was when she was killed
in Xena's world)
This isn't how Xena's world works, and that's a major part of my
argument. I'm not actually advocating a lot of what I say, I'm just
thinking outside my own morals and ethics and looking at the ones
presented to us on screen. With that in mind, Xena's killing Callisto
_cannot_ be murder.
: Yeah, I do know the Xenaverse isn't here. Just pointing out that you could be
: alieanating people to your agument, right there.
My goals in life do not include attracting groupies.
BDangelico
>had
>> said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started
>laughing,
>> do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had
>killed
>> Callisto? Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN
>COLD
>> BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto
>just
>> because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right? From what
>I've
>> read, it sounds like a 'YES.' But I disagree. Xena didn't kill Callisto
>just be
>> cuz she was saying ha-ha your friend died, Xena killed her because she
>knew she
>> DESERVED to die. That's it.
>>
>
>You sir are an asshole.
>
>
>
So you just say the insult, then give no reason? Hmm, shows how intelligent you
are... But if ya don't mind, can ya tell me why? I'm not mad, I just want to
know. If I WAS mad, I MIGHT call you a motherfucking bitch. But I'm NOT mad, so
I won't call you that. Later, buddy.
Lazarus
>
> Lazarus <yod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> : Lets just say your right though, and Xena killed Callisto in revenge for
> : her killing Solan, and Gabbys boyfriend, and revenge of killing a loved
> : one is a justifiable cause. Then you must justify Callisto's mission as
> : well, in killing Xena. Xena was responsible for Callistos familly
> : beiung burned to death, don't you justify that?
>
> No. First, Xena never ordered that fire, it was an accident.
accident or no accident the fire -was- her responsiblity, so that
arguement has no weight.
> Next,
> Xena reformed herself, which may not indeminify her but it shouldn't carry
> with it the sentence of death.
this still doesn't matter, if you can justify revenge, then you can
justify Callisto mission. Are you argueing that Xena killed Callisto
for the greater good and had the right to kill Callisto because of that,
or are you argueing that Xena killed Callisto because she had a good
excuse after Callisto had done bad things in the past, and those acts of
badness deserve vengence?
> Next, Callisto's methods in getting to Xena
> were about as disgusting, if not more (though less in terms of degree),
> than Xena's methods as a warlord.
Xena poisened people, strung people up on crosses, and broke thier legs
(like ceaser) and burned down the villages. Xena was just as methodical
as Callisto, if not even more methodical, I've seen Xena go to any
length to get the kill, like teasing Iolaus to fight Herc, like
poisening a villages food suply to weaken them before the kill. Xena as
a warlord was bascily just as evil as Callisto, and even if she wasn't
it still wouldn't matter in this arguement.
> :> Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN COLD
> :> BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto just
> :> because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right?
>
> : Lets say your right, and consider the highly unlikely possibilty that
> : Xena did kill Callisto for things Callisto did in the past, and because
> : she thought it was for the greater good, it still doesn't give her an
> : excuse to kill Callisto, maybe if Callisto said something like "I'm
> : going to kill Gabrielle" or something like that, then she would have
> : reason, but you can't kill people because you decide it might be for the
> : greater good, the past doesn't determine that, it only gives us ideas of
> : what *might* happen; Callisto *might* have been a menace to society had
> : Xena not killed her, Callisto *might* have become a nun for all we
> : know.
>
> Look, this argument is getting old, this one about people not
> KNOWING what would have happened in the future.
You can make a GUESS as to what might happen in the future, but you
can't condemn somebody to death over something you guess might happen in
the future...
> That's absolute bullshit.
> The past is ALL YOU HAVE to make such a determination, as well as anything
> you find out in the present (which becomes the past at a surprisingly fast
> rate). Callisto ALREADY WAS a menace to society, ALREADY HAD been given a
> chance to reform herself, had ALREADY PROVEN that she didn't care about
> life, hers or anyone else's. Callisto was a MONSTER and could not be
> allowed to roam free.
You can't kill somebody because of something they did in the past, and
have it be justified. There was no way Xena could have known that
Callisto would have continued murdering had she not killed her then and
there.
> I don't care if she was destined to become Mother-fragging-Teresa
> next week, at the time of her death she WAS a demonstrably unreformable
> criminal with a penchant for killing on a whim. That cannot be tolerated
> in any civilized society and she HAD to be put down.
You -guess- that she is unreformable, you have no proof of that except
that she was stubborn when we first met her and didn't want to change.
Callisto changed alot throughout the series, especially after finding
her parents in the underworld.
> How is it that you can't see this? Would you have Jeffrey Dahmer
> set free because he wasn't eating anyone DURING HIS TRIAL? Would you have
> Charles Manson let go if you didn't know what his next moves were? Are
> criminals convicted and sentenced based on anything OTHER THAN the past?
You can not murder somebody over something you think they might do, and
have it be justified, it's just not possible, and completely illogical,
I don't see how this escapes you. Lets say I thought you might kill
somebody does that give me the right to kill you? No. In your court of
justice anybody could plead inocent of murder by saying: I killed them
for the greater good because I thought they might kill somebody because
they had a history of murder.
> Criminal psychologists observe inmates, and look at their past histories,
> to determine whether they are a menace to society and should be kept
> locked up. In the Xenaverse they don't HAVE criminal psychologists, so
> they have to rely on their own judgement to decide if someone is beyond
> salvage. That's what happened to Callisto. Badabing badaboom. End of
> story.
Yeah, well, it's still not justifiable. You can't put somebodys life on
line of your own judgement, because you could have a lapse in judgement
at any time.
> : The fact remains, we don't know whats going to happen, until we
> : have proof.
>
> Proof? Surely you jest. I think the best method is "reasonable
> doubt" rather than absolute proof. You don't wait for someone you think is
> going to kill you to whip out a sword and start swinging, you take steps
> to keep them from even STARTING.
Yeah, well, at the same time, you can't stab somebody because you guess
theres a possiblity they might stab somebody else. You need proof
before you start killing, you cant kill people because of a "reasonable
doubt" that would be chaos...
> : If Callisto had said she was going to burn down more
> : villages,
>
> Callisto's not that stupid. Give your potential executioner an
> excuse? Don't be daft.
whatever, stupid, or not, thats what it would take: proof. You can't
just go around killing people because you have a feeling, or a guess
that they might kill someone, no matter who they are, powerfull or not.
> : then Xena would have had the right to kill her, or if Callisto
> : lunged at Xena or Gabrielle, or something like that, Xena was not
> : defending *anything* Xena was not defending the greater good, and even
> : if she thought she was she still doesn't have enough proof that killing
> : Callisto would be for the greater good.
>
> Sorry, but I fully expect to find your body floating off a pier
> somewhere someday simply because you are way too tolerant.
I'm just telling it like it is.
> You wouldn't
> turn to the cops if someone was chasing you down the street because you
> wouldn't have PROOF that they were going to stab you with that knife.
I wouldn't kill that person. We are talking about killing, not turning
to the cops, it's a whole different ball game when it comes to killing.
> You
> wouldn't call the fire department because you didn't have proof that the
> smoke you were smelling wasn't from the smelting plant across the city.
we compairing apples with oranges.
> If
> we waited around for PROOF of everything, we'd never get anywhere.
I am talking about murder, murder is a special scenerio. Death is -the
ultimate- in common disliked things among human beings, therefore it
needs to be treated with extreme caution.
> All you
> have is the past, the present, and whatever you can figure out from them.
to come to a hypothesis as to what they might do, you can't judge
somebody based on a hypothesis, espcially not when it comes to
justifying killing someone.
> If Callisto wanted to mend her ways in the future, she should have
> let someone know about it. If something isn't said, it isn't known. And
> since we can only deal with the past, Callisto would have condemned
> herself with her silence. Too bad.
No, thats a backasswards way of looking at the situation. You can't
kill based on a guess of a crime that might happen.
> : Nobody knew what would become of Xena, she on the path to becoming a
> : world dictator far worse then hitler when we first encountered her, she
> : made Callistos bad deeds look like a bad joke; and yet she changed after
> : a series of episodes.
>
> Callisto was in a series of episodes and she changed, too...she
> got worse and more powerful. The story of Callisto is one of a downward
> slide into madness, despair, and un-fulfilled goals. Her story may have
> been a tragic one, but not an excusable one.
Your right, everything she did, its her responisbility. Everything she
might do is not.
> : We will never know if that might have happened to
> : Callisto or not, because Xena killed her.
>
> And a good thing, too.
good thing? What if Callisto became a good warrior? Would it be a good
thing to have one less -god- warrior fighting for good?
> : It's sad actually, somebody
> : gave Xena a chance, and then Xena repays that by not even lifting a
> : finger to help Callisto,
>
> Bull.
When did Xena lift a finger to help Callisto? Name a few situations in
which Xena actually sat down and gave a good sporting try to help
Callisto deal with her pain.
> : all Xena did was throw her in jail and say "I'm
> : sorry"...not very helpfull I would say.
>
> The effort was made, Callisto was unreceptive. Rather than beat
> her head against a brick wall (much like I'm doing with this message
> thread), Xena decided to move on.
Hey, I'm beating my head against your brick wall also, don't forget
that!
> : The least Xena could have done
> : is stay with Callisto and talk to her while she was in jail for a few
> : weeks,
>
> Excuse me? A few WEEKS? What justice system do you think you're
> dealing with here, ours? Callisto would have been tried in one day,
> executed the next, that's how justice seems to work in the Xenaverse.
no she wasn't, she was put in that hannibal lecter chair. Xena could
have helped her then, when she was restrained.
> : We can't take it into our hands as to who we think deserves to die, and
> : kill them, and have it be justified...don't you understand that?
>
> Of course we can't...in OUR world.
I don't think in any world you can take other peoples lives in your
hands and have it be justified. There is a thing called overall justice
we have to abide by otherwise we become criminals ourselves.
> In the Xenaverse might makes
> right. In the Xenaverse, if someone attacks you, you are in your rights to
> kill them. Callisto had attacked Xena on more than on occasion. She gave
> up her right to live long ago. In the Xenaverse, justice is nebulous,
> changes every time you cross a border, doesn't even exist in many places.
> Callisto wasn't under anyone's protection beyond the good faith of those
> she was with, good faith that was stretched to its limit and beyond. She
> should have known better.
Justice exists in the xenaverse just as it does in our universe.
> : If
> : Callisto had done something like tried to stab Gabrielle, and Xena
> : killed Callisto to save Gabrielle then it would be a justified kill, but
> : just determing whether somebody deserves to die or not is not a good
> : enough reason to kill somebody.
>
> Your own version of morality, ethics, honor, and justice aren't at
> play here. We're talking about the Xenaverse, not OUR world. And in the
> Xenaverse, what you seem to believe is NOT the reigning belief. Deal with
> it.
It's not what I believe, it's a law of human nature. It's justice.
blind_...@mindspring.com
Lazarus wrote in message <37052D...@yahoo.com>...
Callisto spoiler
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>When did Xena lift a finger to help Callisto? Name a few situations in
>which Xena actually sat down and gave a good sporting try to help
>Callisto deal with her pain.
>
From Callisto:
X: "What happened to you was terrible. It was my fault and Im sorry."
C: "Oh well, that makes all the difference and now we can be the best of
friends." (spits at Xena.) "Thats what I think of your apology."
Later on......
X: "What would you do if I let you go?"
G: ""Dont!"
X: "I changed so could she."
C: "The sight, just the sight of Xena, Warrior Princess, arguing on my
behalf amuses me so. You let me go and I will dedicate my life to killing
everything you love - your friends, your family, your reputation, even
your horse. I am being so honest with you because the idea of your pity is
worse than death for me."
This was essentially the same chance Herc gave Xena.
Also, Callisto either killed/tried to kill/or threatened to kill anyone
who ever showed any interest in her.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> No. First, Xena never ordered that fire, it was an accident.
: accident or no accident the fire -was- her responsiblity, so that
: arguement has no weight.
It is to laugh. Xena has said that she was either fighting with or
alongside (I forget) the army fo another warlord at the time, but Callisto
hasn't tried to get revenge on him...
:> Next,
:> Xena reformed herself, which may not indeminify her but it shouldn't carry
:> with it the sentence of death.
: this still doesn't matter, if you can justify revenge, then you can
: justify Callisto mission. Are you argueing that Xena killed Callisto
: for the greater good and had the right to kill Callisto because of that,
: or are you argueing that Xena killed Callisto because she had a good
: excuse after Callisto had done bad things in the past, and those acts of
: badness deserve vengence?
All of the above.
:> Next, Callisto's methods in getting to Xena
:> were about as disgusting, if not more (though less in terms of degree),
:> than Xena's methods as a warlord.
: Xena poisened people, strung people up on crosses, and broke thier legs
: (like ceaser) and burned down the villages. Xena was just as methodical
: as Callisto, if not even more methodical, I've seen Xena go to any
: length to get the kill, like teasing Iolaus to fight Herc, like
: poisening a villages food suply to weaken them before the kill. Xena as
: a warlord was bascily just as evil as Callisto, and even if she wasn't
: it still wouldn't matter in this arguement.
Then why are you still arguing about it? These messages are long
enough already, do a little snipping...
:> Look, this argument is getting old, this one about people not
:> KNOWING what would have happened in the future.
: You can make a GUESS as to what might happen in the future, but you
: can't condemn somebody to death over something you guess might happen in
: the future...
Yes, you can. It's been done before, in the real world, it will be
done again.
:> That's absolute bullshit.
:> The past is ALL YOU HAVE to make such a determination, as well as anything
:> you find out in the present (which becomes the past at a surprisingly fast
:> rate). Callisto ALREADY WAS a menace to society, ALREADY HAD been given a
:> chance to reform herself, had ALREADY PROVEN that she didn't care about
:> life, hers or anyone else's. Callisto was a MONSTER and could not be
:> allowed to roam free.
: You can't kill somebody because of something they did in the past, and
: have it be justified. There was no way Xena could have known that
: Callisto would have continued murdering had she not killed her then and
: there.
She doesn't have to KNOW, she has to be REASONABLY CERTIAN. Juries
convict people if they can see that they are guilty BEYOND A REASONABLE
DOUBT. Callisto showed NO signs of remorse or willingness to change. Deal
with it.
:> I don't care if she was destined to become Mother-fragging-Teresa
:> next week, at the time of her death she WAS a demonstrably unreformable
:> criminal with a penchant for killing on a whim. That cannot be tolerated
:> in any civilized society and she HAD to be put down.
:
: You -guess- that she is unreformable, you have no proof of that except
: that she was stubborn when we first met her and didn't want to change.
: Callisto changed alot throughout the series, especially after finding
: her parents in the underworld.
Don't need proof.
:> How is it that you can't see this? Would you have Jeffrey Dahmer
:> set free because he wasn't eating anyone DURING HIS TRIAL? Would you have
:> Charles Manson let go if you didn't know what his next moves were? Are
:> criminals convicted and sentenced based on anything OTHER THAN the past?
: You can not murder somebody over something you think they might do, and
: have it be justified, it's just not possible, and completely illogical,
: I don't see how this escapes you. Lets say I thought you might kill
: somebody does that give me the right to kill you? No. In your court of
: justice anybody could plead inocent of murder by saying: I killed them
: for the greater good because I thought they might kill somebody because
: they had a history of murder.
You're wrong: In my court of justice, someone could plead innocent
of murder by saying "This dangerous criminal, who hasn't been brought to
justice YET, and has a history of brutal crimes, was nearby gloating at
the death of my best friend in such a way as to imply that she had found a
purpose in life in the suffering of others. Clearly that cannot be borne,
and as we are in the Xenaverse and not the 20th Century, my killing was
justified."
You seem to think that, in a time when courts were all local deal
and there was no universal or national law system, killing a dangerous
person was illegal. It wasn't. Any such killing was perfectly justified
back then. THESE days all you can do it tazer or pepper-spray them and run
to look for a cop.
Xena's world isn't our own, get that straight.
:> Criminal psychologists observe inmates, and look at their past histories,
:> to determine whether they are a menace to society and should be kept
:> locked up. In the Xenaverse they don't HAVE criminal psychologists, so
:> they have to rely on their own judgement to decide if someone is beyond
:> salvage. That's what happened to Callisto. Badabing badaboom. End of
:> story.
: Yeah, well, it's still not justifiable. You can't put somebodys life on
: line of your own judgement, because you could have a lapse in judgement
: at any time.
So why do we appoint PEOPLE as judges and juries? THEY can have
lapse of judgement too...
:> Proof? Surely you jest. I think the best method is "reasonable
:> doubt" rather than absolute proof. You don't wait for someone you think is
:> going to kill you to whip out a sword and start swinging, you take steps
:> to keep them from even STARTING.
: Yeah, well, at the same time, you can't stab somebody because you guess
: theres a possiblity they might stab somebody else. You need proof
: before you start killing, you cant kill people because of a "reasonable
: doubt" that would be chaos...
No, chaos would be if you killed everybody with a sword or dagger
because they might use it and then started looking for people with cooking
knives. Killing someone with a record like Callisto's on the other hand...
:> : If Callisto had said she was going to burn down more
:> : villages,
:>
:> Callisto's not that stupid. Give your potential executioner an
:> excuse? Don't be daft.
: whatever, stupid, or not, thats what it would take: proof. You can't
: just go around killing people because you have a feeling, or a guess
: that they might kill someone, no matter who they are, powerfull or not.
You can be REASONABLY CERTAIN, and that's enough. "Proof" as you
are putting it, can be deadly, and that's a price too high to pay. Better
one should die wrongfully than dozens die at the hands of that one while
you are searching for "proof".
:> Sorry, but I fully expect to find your body floating off a pier
:> somewhere someday simply because you are way too tolerant.
: I'm just telling it like it is.
No, you're telling it how you'd like it to be.
:> You wouldn't
:> turn to the cops if someone was chasing you down the street because you
:> wouldn't have PROOF that they were going to stab you with that knife.
: I wouldn't kill that person. We are talking about killing, not turning
: to the cops, it's a whole different ball game when it comes to killing.
It's an analogy, numbwad. Sheesh.
:> You
:> wouldn't call the fire department because you didn't have proof that the
:> smoke you were smelling wasn't from the smelting plant across the city.
: we compairing apples with oranges.
They're both fruits, just as the examples above are both dangers.
Deal with it.
:> If
:> we waited around for PROOF of everything, we'd never get anywhere.
: I am talking about murder, murder is a special scenerio. Death is -the
: ultimate- in common disliked things among human beings, therefore it
: needs to be treated with extreme caution.
Caution is a luxury one cannot always afford...like when dealing
with someone like Callisto.
:> All you
:> have is the past, the present, and whatever you can figure out from them.
: to come to a hypothesis as to what they might do, you can't judge
: somebody based on a hypothesis, espcially not when it comes to
: justifying killing someone.
There's no other way to judge someone but to review the past and
decide. If you can think of another way, I'd like to hear it. But keep in
mind, I won't accept this other idea if it puts others in potential danger
from the person under scrutiny. THAT is what is most important to prevent.
:> If Callisto wanted to mend her ways in the future, she should have
:> let someone know about it. If something isn't said, it isn't known. And
:> since we can only deal with the past, Callisto would have condemned
:> herself with her silence. Too bad.
: No, thats a backasswards way of looking at the situation. You can't
: kill based on a guess of a crime that might happen.
Bassackward is letting someone commit a crime before trying to
STOP them from doing it, which is what you seem intent on letting Callisto
do. She'd already proven herself capable of doing it several times, why
let her do it again? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on
ME."
:> Callisto was in a series of episodes and she changed, too...she
:> got worse and more powerful. The story of Callisto is one of a downward
:> slide into madness, despair, and un-fulfilled goals. Her story may have
:> been a tragic one, but not an excusable one.
: Your right, everything she did, its her responisbility. Everything she
: might do is not.
WHAT??????
:> And a good thing, too.
: good thing? What if Callisto became a good warrior? Would it be a good
: thing to have one less -god- warrior fighting for good?
Callisto doesn't fight for GOOD. Whether she would later or not is
something I don't WANT to find out; I'd be too busy running for cover
beacause if she was running loose I don't want to be a target.
:> Bull.
: When did Xena lift a finger to help Callisto? Name a few situations in
: which Xena actually sat down and gave a good sporting try to help
: Callisto deal with her pain.
I've already done that and I'm sick of risking carpal tunnel
syndrome so go back and read 'em again.
:> The effort was made, Callisto was unreceptive. Rather than beat
:> her head against a brick wall (much like I'm doing with this message
:> thread), Xena decided to move on.
: Hey, I'm beating my head against your brick wall also, don't forget
: that!
Too bad your forehead hasn't dented yet.
:> Excuse me? A few WEEKS? What justice system do you think you're
:> dealing with here, ours? Callisto would have been tried in one day,
:> executed the next, that's how justice seems to work in the Xenaverse.
: no she wasn't, she was put in that hannibal lecter chair. Xena could
: have helped her then, when she was restrained.
*sigh* Callisto WAS to be tried with a sentence of execution when
she was being held in prison in that one village. You know, that time the
villagers formed a mob, threw a torch in the cell, and Xena almost burned
while Callisto escaped...
:> Of course we can't...in OUR world.
: I don't think in any world you can take other peoples lives in your
: hands and have it be justified. There is a thing called overall justice
: we have to abide by otherwise we become criminals ourselves.
Sorry, but you're wrong. "Wanted Dead or Alive" is not just a
construct of fiction from the Wild West or Robin Hood.
:> In the Xenaverse might makes
:> right. In the Xenaverse, if someone attacks you, you are in your rights to
:> kill them. Callisto had attacked Xena on more than on occasion. She gave
:> up her right to live long ago. In the Xenaverse, justice is nebulous,
:> changes every time you cross a border, doesn't even exist in many places.
:> Callisto wasn't under anyone's protection beyond the good faith of those
:> she was with, good faith that was stretched to its limit and beyond. She
:> should have known better.
: Justice exists in the xenaverse just as it does in our universe.
WHAT?????? What show are YOU watching? There's no juries, only
judges, executions can be ordered for crimes that aren't capital in our
time, towns often make their own laws ragardless of the laws of the
kingdoms... NOTHING works exactly the same as in our world.
Geex.
:> Your own version of morality, ethics, honor, and justice aren't at
:> play here. We're talking about the Xenaverse, not OUR world. And in the
:> Xenaverse, what you seem to believe is NOT the reigning belief. Deal with
:> it.
: It's not what I believe, it's a law of human nature. It's justice.
Human nature is a fiction. So is justice. These are constructs of
modern society. And what you believe isn't even the prevailing belief
around the world. Until 1985, France still used the guillotine. They
execute people in Cuba, the United States, the middle east, many places.
And for lesser crimes than Callisto's. Police officers are allowed to use
deadly force when a criminal is behaving in a way that MAY BE a threat to
innocent lives. I know, I spent a summer at the police academy as a
function of school a few years back, we covered the use of deadly force.
And in Xena's time, police didn't even exist. You had guards and
soldiery who would take the job every now and then, but anyone could chase
down a criminal if they thought they could do it without being killed.
This has been done many times in the show. You obviously haven't been
paying attention or maybe just don't like what you see.
ranlauren
stopping people who are an immense danger.
We don't do this in quite a few other places. You're in danger of losing the
majority of Australians, if you presume capital punishment in the real world. We
might feel like doing it, but the majority of us do not think that it should actually
be done.
It is also in violation of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.
Yeah, I do know the Xenaverse isn't here. Just pointing out that you could be
alieanating people to your agument, right there.
Rooth (an unashamed woolly-headed small-l liberal :-) )
ranlauren
Rooth
Kwame Phillips-Solomon wrote:
> Lazarus <yod...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:370428...@yahoo.com...
> > BDangelico wrote:
> > >
> > > Quick question: In Sacrifice II, if, after Gabrielle supposedly died,
> ARES had
> > > said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started
> laughing,
> > > do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had
> killed
> > > Callisto?
> >
> > In the condition Xena was in, I think there is a chance she may have
> > very well killed Ares, but it's a 50 50 thing. She might have simply
> > started fighting him, or she might have killed him.
> >
> > Lets just say your right though, and Xena killed Callisto in revenge for
> > her killing Solan, and Gabbys boyfriend, and revenge of killing a loved
> > one is a justifiable cause. Then you must justify Callisto's mission as
> > well, in killing Xena. Xena was responsible for Callistos familly
> > beiung burned to death, don't you justify that?
> >
> > > Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN COLD
> > > BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed
> Callisto just
> > > because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right?
> >
> > Lets say your right, and consider the highly unlikely possibilty that
> > Xena did kill Callisto for things Callisto did in the past, and because
> > she thought it was for the greater good, it still doesn't give her an
> > excuse to kill Callisto, maybe if Callisto said something like "I'm
> > going to kill Gabrielle" or something like that, then she would have
> > reason, but you can't kill people because you decide it might be for the
> > greater good, the past doesn't determine that, it only gives us ideas of
> > what *might* happen; Callisto *might* have been a menace to society had
> > Xena not killed her, Callisto *might* have become a nun for all we
> > know. The fact remains, we don't know whats going to happen, until we
> > have proof. If Callisto had said she was going to burn down more
> > villages, then Xena would have had the right to kill her, or if Callisto
> > lunged at Xena or Gabrielle, or something like that, Xena was not
> > defending *anything* Xena was not defending the greater good, and even
> > if she thought she was she still doesn't have enough proof that killing
> > Callisto would be for the greater good.
> >
> > Nobody knew what would become of Xena, she on the path to becoming a
> > world dictator far worse then hitler when we first encountered her, she
> > made Callistos bad deeds look like a bad joke; and yet she changed after
> > a series of episodes. We will never know if that might have happened to
> > Callisto or not, because Xena killed her. It's sad actually, somebody
> > gave Xena a chance, and then Xena repays that by not even lifting a
> > finger to help Callisto, all Xena did was throw her in jail and say "I'm
> > sorry"...not very helpfull I would say. The least Xena could have done
> > is stay with Callisto and talk to her while she was in jail for a few
> > weeks, and try to work things out with her, after all the whole quest of
> > XWP is her trying make amends for her past misdeeds...
> >
> > > From what I've
> > > read, it sounds like a 'YES.' But I disagree. Xena didn't kill Callisto
> just be
> > > cuz she was saying ha-ha your friend died, Xena killed her because she
> knew she
> > > DESERVED to die. That's it.
> > >
> > > BD
> >
> > We can't take it into our hands as to who we think deserves to die, and
> > kill them, and have it be justified...don't you understand that? If
> > Callisto had done something like tried to stab Gabrielle, and Xena
> > killed Callisto to save Gabrielle then it would be a justified kill, but
> > just determing whether somebody deserves to die or not is not a good
> > enough reason to kill somebody.
>
Lazarus
> : arguement has no weight.
>
> It is to laugh. Xena has said that she was either fighting with or
> alongside (I forget) the army fo another warlord at the time, but Callisto
> hasn't tried to get revenge on him...
Are we trying to change the subject? The point you bring up is weak.
What does that have to do with the fact that it was Xenas
responsibility? Because Xena was fighting with somebody else doesn't
make her any less responsible for the burning. The fact that cirra
burned -was- Xenas fault.
> : You can make a GUESS as to what might happen in the future, but you
> : can't condemn somebody to death over something you guess might happen in
> : the future...
>
> Yes, you can. It's been done before, in the real world, it will be
> done again.
YEAH...of course it's been before, but it can't be justified. Jesus,
whenever you find your arguement backed into a corner you change the
subject to something that has nothing to do with the arguement.
> :> That's absolute bullshit.
> :> The past is ALL YOU HAVE to make such a determination, as well as anything
> :> you find out in the present (which becomes the past at a surprisingly fast
> :> rate). Callisto ALREADY WAS a menace to society, ALREADY HAD been given a
> :> chance to reform herself, had ALREADY PROVEN that she didn't care about
> :> life, hers or anyone else's. Callisto was a MONSTER and could not be
> :> allowed to roam free.
>
> : You can't kill somebody because of something they did in the past, and
> : have it be justified. There was no way Xena could have known that
> : Callisto would have continued murdering had she not killed her then and
> : there.
>
> She doesn't have to KNOW, she has to be REASONABLY CERTIAN. Juries
> convict people if they can see that they are guilty BEYOND A REASONABLE
> DOUBT. Callisto showed NO signs of remorse or willingness to change. Deal
> with it.
lol! You really need to relax man, why are you taking this so
seriouosly. I don't care about juries, and all that other crap, I am
saying that "it is unjust to kill somebody because you take a guess that
they might be menaces to society"...
> :> I don't care if she was destined to become Mother-fragging-Teresa
> :> next week, at the time of her death she WAS a demonstrably unreformable
> :> criminal with a penchant for killing on a whim. That cannot be tolerated
> :> in any civilized society and she HAD to be put down.
> :
> : You -guess- that she is unreformable, you have no proof of that except
> : that she was stubborn when we first met her and didn't want to change.
> : Callisto changed alot throughout the series, especially after finding
> : her parents in the underworld.
>
> Don't need proof.
you don't need proof of somebodys guilt in order to sentence them to
murder?...your pretty rediculous, I'm going to stop carrying on this
conversation soon, because your just getting down right silly.
> : You can not murder somebody over something you think they might do, and
> : have it be justified, it's just not possible, and completely illogical,
> : I don't see how this escapes you. Lets say I thought you might kill
> : somebody does that give me the right to kill you? No. In your court of
> : justice anybody could plead inocent of murder by saying: I killed them
> : for the greater good because I thought they might kill somebody because
> : they had a history of murder.
>
> You're wrong: In my court of justice, someone could plead innocent
> of murder by saying "This dangerous criminal, who hasn't been brought to
> justice YET, and has a history of brutal crimes, was nearby gloating at
> the death of my best friend in such a way as to imply that she had found a
> purpose in life in the suffering of others. Clearly that cannot be borne,
> and as we are in the Xenaverse and not the 20th Century, my killing was
> justified."
lol!!!! Your really getting silly now. Lets take this apart: Callisto
laughing at Gabrielles death is not a good enough excuse for Xena to
murder her because a justifiable kill only comes from defence, not
revenge. Callisto potentially being harmfull in the future is also not
good enough because we can't go killing people over our guesses. The
fact that Callisto has a reckless past is also not a good enough reason
because Xena herself also has a reckless past, if not way more
reckless. The fact that Callisto killed perdicus and participated in
killing solan isn't good enough because (judging from Callistos life
story) revenge is not a justifiable excuse to murder somebody.
> You seem to think that, in a time when courts were all local deal
> and there was no universal or national law system, killing a dangerous
> person was illegal. It wasn't. Any such killing was perfectly justified
> back then. THESE days all you can do it tazer or pepper-spray them and run
> to look for a cop.
the laws of human nature do not change with time...
> Xena's world isn't our own, get that straight.
Thats for straightening that out for me.
> : Yeah, well, it's still not justifiable. You can't put somebodys life on
> : line of your own judgement, because you could have a lapse in judgement
> : at any time.
>
> So why do we appoint PEOPLE as judges and juries? THEY can have
> lapse of judgement too...
Well, I'll admit that todays justic system is not "perfect" but it does
a decent job, they take weeks, and monthes reviewing things, and such,
it's alot different then one person coming to the sole conclusion of who
is guilty and who is innocent that decides whether a kill is just. It
takes a group of people in a court that examine endless facts, and
stuff. Even in a court they couldn't convict somebody of something they
*might* do in the future, it would be insane to put somebody in a court,
and say "your guilty of possibly killing somebody in the future so we
are sentencing you to death"
> No, chaos would be if you killed everybody with a sword or dagger
> because they might use it and then started looking for people with cooking
> knives.
what the hell are you talking about?
> Killing someone with a record like Callisto's on the other hand...
So you would have justified killing Xena before she changed? You obey a
system that justifies the murder of all the good Xena would have done to
make amends for her wrong doings. You think anybody with a bad record
deserves killing?
> : whatever, stupid, or not, thats what it would take: proof. You can't
> : just go around killing people because you have a feeling, or a guess
> : that they might kill someone, no matter who they are, powerfull or not.
>
> You can be REASONABLY CERTAIN, and that's enough. "Proof" as you
> are putting it, can be deadly, and that's a price too high to pay.
The price of bending justice out of shape is even higher...
> Better
> one should die wrongfully than dozens die at the hands of that one while
> you are searching for "proof".
You can not kill people based on a guess. I can't even believe we are
having this arguement.
> :> Sorry, but I fully expect to find your body floating off a pier
> :> somewhere someday simply because you are way too tolerant.
>
> : I'm just telling it like it is.
>
> No, you're telling it how you'd like it to be.
no, now your telling it how you would like to think I like it to be....
> : I wouldn't kill that person. We are talking about killing, not turning
> : to the cops, it's a whole different ball game when it comes to killing.
>
> It's an analogy, numbwad. Sheesh.
Yeah...a bad analogy, and please stop sealing your own grave with the
need to rely on insults to prove your point, it really doesn't suit you.
> :> You
> :> wouldn't call the fire department because you didn't have proof that the
> :> smoke you were smelling wasn't from the smelting plant across the city.
>
> : we compairing apples with oranges.
>
> They're both fruits, just as the examples above are both dangers.
> Deal with it.
your analogys suck.
> :> If
> :> we waited around for PROOF of everything, we'd never get anywhere.
>
> : I am talking about murder, murder is a special scenerio. Death is -the
> : ultimate- in common disliked things among human beings, therefore it
> : needs to be treated with extreme caution.
>
> Caution is a luxury one cannot always afford...like when dealing
> with someone like Callisto.
When life is at stake Caution is always a luxury one *has* to afford.
> :> All you
> :> have is the past, the present, and whatever you can figure out from them.
>
> : to come to a hypothesis as to what they might do, you can't judge
> : somebody based on a hypothesis, espcially not when it comes to
> : justifying killing someone.
>
> There's no other way to judge someone but to review the past and
> decide. If you can think of another way, I'd like to hear it.
you judge peoples actions by dealing in the present. If Callisto
started a fight with Xena, then you stab her, you don't stab people in
cold blood because you guess they might be harmfull in the future.
> But keep in
> mind, I won't accept this other idea if it puts others in potential danger
> from the person under scrutiny. THAT is what is most important to prevent.
The most important thing to prevent is ANY death at all...
> :> If Callisto wanted to mend her ways in the future, she should have
> :> let someone know about it. If something isn't said, it isn't known. And
> :> since we can only deal with the past, Callisto would have condemned
> :> herself with her silence. Too bad.
>
> : No, thats a backasswards way of looking at the situation. You can't
> : kill based on a guess of a crime that might happen.
>
> Bassackward is letting someone commit a crime before trying to
> STOP them from doing it, which is what you seem intent on letting Callisto
> do.
I say stop them *as* they are doing it, and learn from that past how to
stop them in the present.
> She'd already proven herself capable of doing it several times, why
> let her do it again? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on
> ME."
You don't know that she is going to do it again, this is self-evident,
you can not execute somebody over a murder you -don't know- is going to
happen.
> :> Callisto was in a series of episodes and she changed, too...she
> :> got worse and more powerful. The story of Callisto is one of a downward
> :> slide into madness, despair, and un-fulfilled goals. Her story may have
> :> been a tragic one, but not an excusable one.
>
> : Your right, everything she did, its her responisbility. Everything she
> : might do is not.
>
> WHAT??????
What Callisto *might* do in the future is not her responsibility...the
menacing acts you would accuse her of possibly doing had Xena not
stabbed her are just that...possible, not factual.
> : good thing? What if Callisto became a good warrior? Would it be a good
> : thing to have one less -god- warrior fighting for good?
>
> Callisto doesn't fight for GOOD. Whether she would later or not is
> something I don't WANT to find out; I'd be too busy running for cover
> beacause if she was running loose I don't want to be a target.
Xena didn't fight for good at a time, alot of people get confused and
fight for evil by mistkae, it was the course of action at Cirra that
turned a normal young girl into an evil person.
> :> Bull.
>
> : When did Xena lift a finger to help Callisto? Name a few situations in
> : which Xena actually sat down and gave a good sporting try to help
> : Callisto deal with her pain.
>
> I've already done that and I'm sick of risking carpal tunnel
> syndrome so go back and read 'em again.
I don't even recall you mentioning that to me at all to be honest with
you...please re-enlighten me.
> :> The effort was made, Callisto was unreceptive. Rather than beat
> :> her head against a brick wall (much like I'm doing with this message
> :> thread), Xena decided to move on.
>
> : Hey, I'm beating my head against your brick wall also, don't forget
> : that!
>
> Too bad your forehead hasn't dented yet.
too bad your hasn't either...or has it?
> : no she wasn't, she was put in that hannibal lecter chair. Xena could
> : have helped her then, when she was restrained.
>
> *sigh* Callisto WAS to be tried with a sentence of execution when
> she was being held in prison in that one village. You know, that time the
> villagers formed a mob, threw a torch in the cell, and Xena almost burned
> while Callisto escaped...
yeah...duh. whats does that have to do with the arguement? the point
is that Callisto *was* restrained later on, and imprisoned for a time
being, and Xena made no effort to try and help Callisto then.
> :> Of course we can't...in OUR world.
>
> : I don't think in any world you can take other peoples lives in your
> : hands and have it be justified. There is a thing called overall justice
> : we have to abide by otherwise we become criminals ourselves.
>
> Sorry, but you're wrong. "Wanted Dead or Alive" is not just a
> construct of fiction from the Wild West or Robin Hood.
Yeah, thats a shitty way of going about things, and isn't justice.
> : Justice exists in the xenaverse just as it does in our universe.
>
> WHAT?????? What show are YOU watching? There's no juries, only
> judges, executions can be ordered for crimes that aren't capital in our
> time, towns often make their own laws ragardless of the laws of the
> kingdoms... NOTHING works exactly the same as in our world.
> Geex.
Justice is not something people can change at the flip of a coin.
Justice is about respecting one another, and learning to live in peace
rather then like animals. Justice is the same for all humans.
> :> Your own version of morality, ethics, honor, and justice aren't at
> :> play here. We're talking about the Xenaverse, not OUR world. And in the
> :> Xenaverse, what you seem to believe is NOT the reigning belief. Deal with
> :> it.
>
> : It's not what I believe, it's a law of human nature. It's justice.
>
> Human nature is a fiction. So is justice.
Human nature is not a fiction, you are expereincing the will of human
nature RIGHT NOW. Justice does exist, it is a mathematical concept
among humans.
> These are constructs of
> modern society. And what you believe isn't even the prevailing belief
> around the world.
Let me ask you this...how can you be so sure of yourself?
> Until 1985, France still used the guillotine. They
> execute people in Cuba, the United States, the middle east, many places.
> And for lesser crimes than Callisto's. Police officers are allowed to use
> deadly force when a criminal is behaving in a way that MAY BE a threat to
> innocent lives. I know, I spent a summer at the police academy as a
> function of school a few years back,
It's pretty scary to think -you- the person who belives in gambiling
with peoples lives based on hunches and guesses was intent on becoming a
police officer.
we covered the use of deadly force.
ooooooh, I'm scared.
> And in Xena's time, police didn't even exist. You had guards and
> soldiery who would take the job every now and then, but anyone could chase
> down a criminal if they thought they could do it without being killed.
> This has been done many times in the show. You obviously haven't been
> paying attention or maybe just don't like what you see.
> Deal with it.
why don't you deal with my nuts, I'm sick of this arguement...you spin
doctor, avoid certian things, change subjects, bring up the meaningless,
insult people (who never even insulted you or had a problem with you),
and basicly you just don'tfight fair, I don't think it's fair to put
myself through the torture of answering your rediculously larg threads,
so I'm calling it quits here, unless I change my mind later...
-lazarus-
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: Are we trying to change the subject? The point you bring up is weak.
: responsibility? Because Xena was fighting with somebody else doesn't
: make her any less responsible for the burning. The fact that cirra
: burned -was- Xenas fault.
No, fool, it ISN'T. Xena never ordered the burning of the town and
she doesn't know if it was her troops or the other warlord's troops who
did it. If Xena is responsible then the other warlord is JUST as
responsible, yet Callisto doesn't go after HIM like a maniac. And the
soldiers who decided to start the burning are the MOST responsible, but
they may already be dead.
:> : You can make a GUESS as to what might happen in the future, but you
:> : can't condemn somebody to death over something you guess might happen in
:> : the future...
:>
:> Yes, you can. It's been done before, in the real world, it will be
:> done again.
: YEAH...of course it's been before, but it can't be justified. Jesus,
: whenever you find your arguement backed into a corner you change the
: subject to something that has nothing to do with the arguement.
I addressed your point directly. Not my fault if you didn't
understand. Putting someone to death because of what they MIGHT do has
vast amounts of historical precedent; there's no reason it can't happen in
the Xenaverse.
Deal with it, chump.
:> : You can't kill somebody because of something they did in the past, and
:> : have it be justified. There was no way Xena could have known that
:> : Callisto would have continued murdering had she not killed her then and
:> : there.
:>
:> She doesn't have to KNOW, she has to be REASONABLY CERTIAN. Juries
:> convict people if they can see that they are guilty BEYOND A REASONABLE
:> DOUBT. Callisto showed NO signs of remorse or willingness to change. Deal
:> with it.
: lol! You really need to relax man, why are you taking this so
: seriouosly.
You're misreading my caps. I'm emphasizing those words so you
don't miss the important points, not because I'm irritated. You seem to
have a mind like Teflon: nothing sticks. If I want to get my point across
I have to practically hit you on the head with it, so I'm doing just that.
: I don't care about juries, and all that other crap, I am
: saying that "it is unjust to kill somebody because you take a guess that
: they might be menaces to society"...
And you would be wrong. There is historical precedent for you
being wrong. This may be what you believe and how things would work in
your perfect world, but that's not how they ACTUALLY ARE. Deal with it.
:> : You -guess- that she is unreformable, you have no proof of that except
:> : that she was stubborn when we first met her and didn't want to change.
:> : Callisto changed alot throughout the series, especially after finding
:> : her parents in the underworld.
:>
:> Don't need proof.
: you don't need proof of somebodys guilt in order to sentence them to
: murder?
No, dumbshit, you don't need proof that someone is a menace to
society to sentence them to death. You only need reasonable certainty.
_Proof_ would require, by your definition, them doing something violent
and being stopped and killing in fair combat.
_My_ version requires only that they display a track record of
extreme violence and disrespect for life and an obvious unwillingness to
change. This spares innocents from your "proof" being gathered at their
expense, which is the whole POINT of putting someone who is a danger to
death, to keep them from harming others.
: ...your pretty rediculous, I'm going to stop carrying on this
: conversation soon, because your just getting down right silly.
And you can't spell. What are you, eight? Buy a dictionary.
You may think I'm getting silly, but the truth is that you just
aren't listening. You've snipped away the relevent bits of my posts and
responded only to the stuff that would appear ridiculous out of context.
In context, not needing proof was explained, but you snipped that part and
I have to explain it AGAIN. *sigh*
:> You're wrong: In my court of justice, someone could plead innocent
:> of murder by saying "This dangerous criminal, who hasn't been brought to
:> justice YET, and has a history of brutal crimes, was nearby gloating at
:> the death of my best friend in such a way as to imply that she had found a
:> purpose in life in the suffering of others. Clearly that cannot be borne,
:> and as we are in the Xenaverse and not the 20th Century, my killing was
:> justified."
: lol!!!! Your really getting silly now. Lets take this apart: Callisto
: laughing at Gabrielles death is not a good enough excuse for Xena to
: murder her because a justifiable kill only comes from defence, not
: revenge.
That's your opinion. I think that giving a psychopath like
Callisto a fair chance to kill someone before attacking her is the height
of lunacy.
: Callisto potentially being harmfull in the future is also not
: good enough because we can't go killing people over our guesses.
We can and have over the years. Why do you deny actual historical
fact? Hell, people used to be executed for _STEALING_, not just killing.
And still you don't see that, regardless of your beliefs, the greater good
actually IS served with the deaths of mass murderers like Callisto.
: The
: fact that Callisto has a reckless past is also not a good enough reason
: because Xena herself also has a reckless past, if not way more
: reckless.
Xena REFMORED her ways, freakshow! Callisto didn't, wouldn't,
couldn't, didn't wanna.
: The fact that Callisto killed perdicus and participated in
: killing solan isn't good enough because (judging from Callistos life
: story) revenge is not a justifiable excuse to murder somebody.
Keeping Callisto from doing that to anyone else's husband or son
ever again IS a good enough reason however, and has nothing to do with
revenge.
:> You seem to think that, in a time when courts were all local deal
:> and there was no universal or national law system, killing a dangerous
:> person was illegal. It wasn't. Any such killing was perfectly justified
:> back then. THESE days all you can do it tazer or pepper-spray them and run
:> to look for a cop.
: the laws of human nature do not change with time...
The laws humans make to govern themselves DO. This argument has
nothing to do with human nature. Human nature doesn't decide what is and
isn't murder, the LAWS humans follow do.
:> So why do we appoint PEOPLE as judges and juries? THEY can have
:> lapse of judgement too...
: Well, I'll admit that todays justic system is not "perfect" but it does
: a decent job, they take weeks, and monthes reviewing things, and such,
: it's alot different then one person coming to the sole conclusion of who
: is guilty and who is innocent that decides whether a kill is just. It
: takes a group of people in a court that examine endless facts, and
: stuff. Even in a court they couldn't convict somebody of something they
: *might* do in the future, it would be insane to put somebody in a court,
: and say "your guilty of possibly killing somebody in the future so we
: are sentencing you to death"
You're right, they don't say that. What they DO say is, "Based on
your past misdeeds and extensive psychoanalysis that shows you to be an
unredeemable sociopath, I hereby sentence you to die by lethal injection
on..."
They aren't convicted of what they MIGHT do, they are convicted on
what they HAVE done. But they are sentenced based on the severity of the
crime, the level of remorse from the defendant, and the likelihood of
their being able to become a productive member of society again upon
release.
Callisto's crimes are too numerous to count, she has no remorse,
she's not ever likely to become a productive member of society, thus her
sentence would be SEVERE.
:> No, chaos would be if you killed everybody with a sword or dagger
:> because they might use it and then started looking for people with cooking
:> knives.
: what the hell are you talking about?
You said we'd have chaos if we killed everyone who was a potential
threat. Well, people with deadly weapons MUST be threats since they have
the potential to stick people with those sharp pointy things. And, hey,
cooking knives can be used as weapons, can't they? Well, kill anyone with
one of those too! And then...
THAT'S chaos. Killing someone like Callisto, though, who has
already BEEN a menace to society and has shown no signs on ever NOT being
one, THAT'S justice.
Use a little common sense when arguing. I never said anything that
even SOUNDED like your version of chaos and you SHOULD know it. I think
you are taking what I say to an unintended extreme just to be difficult.
I am being VERY specific, but you can't seem to see it. I refuse
to spell it out again, it's been said in too many posts, but suffice it to
say, Callisto was too dangerous to allow to live.
:> Killing someone with a record like Callisto's on the other hand...
: So you would have justified killing Xena before she changed?
Depends on if she had been given a _chance_ to change. Hercules
gave her that chance and she took it. If she hadn't she was free game,
kill her if it was the only way to stop her.
But she was given that chance and she did take it, that makes all
the difference.
Even if she hadn't been given that chance, her death would have
been logical at the time, even legal. I'm not saying that negating all the
good she would eventually do is a good thing, but putting myself into the
role of someone living AT THAT TIME, Xena's death would be the appropriate
thing to do.
: You obey a
: system that justifies the murder of all the good Xena would have done to
: make amends for her wrong doings. You think anybody with a bad record
: deserves killing?
I think anybody with a bad record who is unwilling to change their
ways should be killed. The "unwilling to change" part is vital.
I've been saying this all along, why haven't you gotten it YET?
:> You can be REASONABLY CERTAIN, and that's enough. "Proof" as you
:> are putting it, can be deadly, and that's a price too high to pay.
: The price of bending justice out of shape is even higher...
Laws cannot be written to cover every circumstance, sometimes they
have to be bent to see justice served.
Besides, you are operating from the flawed notion that justice
didn't include execution for mass murderers like Callisto in the
Xenaverse. Bull. They were going to execute Meleagur (sp?) the Mighty for
killing ONE MAN! Callisto killed lots more than that, yet you advocate her
going free! And somehow _I'M_ the one with the loopy notions around here.
Pardon me while I have a good belly laugh at your expense.
:> Better
:> one should die wrongfully than dozens die at the hands of that one while
:> you are searching for "proof".
: You can not kill people based on a guess. I can't even believe we are
: having this arguement.
Me neither. You are blind and naieve beyond belief.
:> No, you're telling it how you'd like it to be.
: no, now your telling it how you would like to think I like it to be....
No, I'm telling you that you're living in a dream world.
:> : I wouldn't kill that person. We are talking about killing, not turning
:> : to the cops, it's a whole different ball game when it comes to killing.
:>
:> It's an analogy, numbwad. Sheesh.
: Yeah...a bad analogy, and please stop sealing your own grave with the
: need to rely on insults to prove your point, it really doesn't suit you.
"Doesn't suit me"? You don't even KNOW me.
:> They're both fruits, just as the examples above are both dangers.
:> Deal with it.
: your analogys suck.
Because they work against your arguments so well? Why, thank you.
:> Caution is a luxury one cannot always afford...like when dealing
:> with someone like Callisto.
: When life is at stake Caution is always a luxury one *has* to afford.
That's just the problem, one you seem to keep ignoring when I
bring it up (so kindly address it this time). Here it is:
If I'm right, and Callisto IS a menace to society, and we use YOUR
methods to figure that out, that means Callisto has to actually go out and
ATTACK people, whether it's Xena & Crew or innocent bystanders, and try to
kill them. Thus, LIFE IS AT STAKE! More than Callisto's useless and
detrimental existence, but the lives of people who don't deserve to die.
And Xena can't be watching Callisto all the time, staying close to her
with the Hind's Blood Dagger, ready to strike the instant Callisto raises
her blade to somebody. That's impractical.
Now, if you're right, Callisto won't attack anybody. But we don't
know that and, based on her track record, the good bet would be on
Callisto NOT reforming her ways.
So you have two choices: Kill Callisto and remove a potential (and
likely) and past danger from the world. OR, let Callisto go and wait and
see what she does, with the potential for excessive destruction of
innocent lives.
Do the math: 1 person dies for certain, or dozens, possibly
hundreds, MIGHT die at the hands of the one person you didn't kill.
Quickly now, the choice of what to do with Callisto is all yours, do you
want one person's blood on your hands for certain or the possibility for
hundreds on your hands?
Seen that way, howcan you POSSIBLY justify NOT killing Callisto?
The greater good is more important than any one single life, and even if
there was a mere 50-50 chance of Callisto having changed her ways (I doubt
that she was that close to being changed for the better), I don't think
the deaths of hundreds, or even dozens, is worth the risk.
Look at ti that way, and then tell me again that you don't think
Callisto should have died. Can you really do it honestly? You, who seems
to value life so highly that you don't think it should ever be taken, you
with that belief honestly think that this risk is worth it? In anyone's
book, taking more life should be worse than taking less, surely you can
see that.
:> There's no other way to judge someone but to review the past and
:> decide. If you can think of another way, I'd like to hear it.
: you judge peoples actions by dealing in the present. If Callisto
: started a fight with Xena, then you stab her, you don't stab people in
: cold blood because you guess they might be harmfull in the future.
You didn't answer the question. First, there's really no such
thing as the present: the present goes by so quickly that it is the past
before we know it. Second, why are you so adamant that Callisto has to
START something before she can be killed? Why do her past deeds mean
NOTHING to you? This woman killed BUTTLOADS of people, yet you think she
should see a bloody shrink, or the Xeanverse equivalent, and then be sent
on her merry way. You seem to think that, just because Callisto isn't
killing innocent villagers NOW, that she can't be punished for the crime.
And we've seen already that the sentence for such a crime IS death, that's
what the crowd was demanding when Callisto was put in jail.
You arguments are completely baseless outside of your own little
world. But in the real world, and in the Xenaverse, things work
differently than you'd like. Sorry to shatter your protective bubble, but
that's how it is.
:> But keep in
:> mind, I won't accept this other idea if it puts others in potential danger
:> from the person under scrutiny. THAT is what is most important to prevent.
: The most important thing to prevent is ANY death at all...
Too late. Callisto's killed tons of people already. That cannot go
unpunished, not can it be allowed to continue. IF we listened to you,
Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy would all be free now. You
can't coddle criminals if they won't reform their ways or if their past
actions were disgusting.
:> Bassackward is letting someone commit a crime before trying to
:> STOP them from doing it, which is what you seem intent on letting Callisto
:> do.
: I say stop them *as* they are doing it, and learn from that past how to
: stop them in the present.
And I still say that is DUMB DUMB DUMB. Why would you EVER let
Callisto go, only to commit her acts of violence again, just so you can
stop her readhanded? She could still kill someone in the process and
there's no guarantee that someone with a hind's blood dagger will be
around at the time. Your method doesn't prevent death, it encourages it.
:> She'd already proven herself capable of doing it several times, why
:> let her do it again? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on
:> ME."
: You don't know that she is going to do it again, this is self-evident,
: you can not execute somebody over a murder you -don't know- is going to
: happen.
Yes, you can, if that person has proven themselves over and over
and over again, that they are capable of doing it. You very bloody well
CAN do that, even in our world today you can do that.
:> : Your right, everything she did, its her responisbility. Everything she
:> : might do is not.
:>
:> WHAT??????
: What Callisto *might* do in the future is not her responsibility...the
: menacing acts you would accuse her of possibly doing had Xena not
: stabbed her are just that...possible, not factual.
And you, in your perverse logic, seem to think that these menacing
acts have to become factual before Callisto can be dealt with. You say you
respect life, you you also say that life must be lost before Callisto may
be dealt with in the only way available. You are inconsistent and, I'm
beginning to believe, daft.
:> Callisto doesn't fight for GOOD. Whether she would later or not is
:> something I don't WANT to find out; I'd be too busy running for cover
:> beacause if she was running loose I don't want to be a target.
: Xena didn't fight for good at a time, alot of people get confused and
: fight for evil by mistkae, it was the course of action at Cirra that
: turned a normal young girl into an evil person.
You missed the point of that last paragraph entirely.
:> : When did Xena lift a finger to help Callisto? Name a few situations in
:> : which Xena actually sat down and gave a good sporting try to help
:> : Callisto deal with her pain.
:>
:> I've already done that and I'm sick of risking carpal tunnel
:> syndrome so go back and read 'em again.
: I don't even recall you mentioning that to me at all to be honest with
: you...please re-enlighten me.
No. Go get a Deja News account and re-read this thread, I'm sick
of typing up 2000 line messages. This is taking up too much time as it is.
:> : Hey, I'm beating my head against your brick wall also, don't forget
:> : that!
:>
:> Too bad your forehead hasn't dented yet.
: too bad your hasn't either...or has it?
No, I'm too smart to bash my head against walls. I wonder why YOU
do.
:> *sigh* Callisto WAS to be tried with a sentence of execution when
:> she was being held in prison in that one village. You know, that time the
:> villagers formed a mob, threw a torch in the cell, and Xena almost burned
:> while Callisto escaped...
: yeah...duh. whats does that have to do with the arguement? the point
: is that Callisto *was* restrained later on, and imprisoned for a time
: being, and Xena made no effort to try and help Callisto then.
She did. She tried to talk to Callisto while she was in the cell.
Didn't work. Someone posted that conversation verbatim a few posts ago,
maybe you should read that for a transcript.
Besides, Callisto got out and wreaked more havoc, which only
strengths the case against her ever being permanently reigned in.
:> Sorry, but you're wrong. "Wanted Dead or Alive" is not just a
:> construct of fiction from the Wild West or Robin Hood.
: Yeah, thats a shitty way of going about things, and isn't justice.
It IS justice, and you don't like it. Big deal. We don't have to
like th law, we just have to follow it. If the law pisses you off, you get
voted into a position where you can make changes.
But just because you don't like it doesn't make it not so.
: Justice is not something people can change at the flip of a coin.
: Justice is about respecting one another, and learning to live in peace
: rather then like animals. Justice is the same for all humans.
No, justice is the application of the punishment aspect of the
law. Laws are written by those in power.
You are not talking about justice, you are talking about something
entirely different. You are not talking about anything that even works in
the real world, only on paper or in the heads of idealists. Maybe some
people want to live in harmony, but there are always those who will prey
on the weak.
Justice is about keeping people SAFE from those who would prey
upon them; it has nothing to do with respect. Justice comes from people
saying "This is what is acceptable in our society. This is what is NOT
acceptable. And this is the punishment if you do something that isn't
acceptable." Simple as that. But in each country, state, town, whatever,
there are different laws because people in different places believe
different things and choose to live different ways.
A long time ago, Black people weren't allowed BY LAW to sit at
certain places, drink from certain water fountains, go to certain schools,
etc. What did that have to do with respect? Or living in peace? And yet,
it was LAW, part of the justice system...and it was only a law in certain
places, like the South. You went up north to New England or something, and
such rules were either non-existant or lesser or just not enforced. Law,
and thus justice, changed when you changed your location.
Some states in the US don't have the death penalty, some do. Law
changes with location. Some states allow the sale of medical marijuana,
some don't. Law changes with location.
Laws are the written rules enforced by the justice system. There
is no universal justice system that the entire world lives by. If you
think so, you are deluding yourself.
:> These are constructs of
:> modern society. And what you believe isn't even the prevailing belief
:> around the world.
: Let me ask you this...how can you be so sure of yourself?
Because I've done my homework. You seem to be talking completely
out of your own beliefs, but I'm talking FACT. Read what I wrote above
about justice and how it contradicts what you've said. I used historical
FACT to back up what I'm saying and all you have to respond with is "Well,
I don't feel that way."
Sorry, bucko, but the facts speak and they say you are wrong.
:> Until 1985, France still used the guillotine. They
:> execute people in Cuba, the United States, the middle east, many places.
:> And for lesser crimes than Callisto's. Police officers are allowed to use
:> deadly force when a criminal is behaving in a way that MAY BE a threat to
:> innocent lives. I know, I spent a summer at the police academy as a
:> function of school a few years back,
: It's pretty scary to think -you- the person who belives in gambiling
: with peoples lives based on hunches and guesses was intent on becoming a
: police officer.
I wasn't, it was a splinter faction of the Boy Scouts (they
allowed girls in, so it wasn't the ACTUAL Boy Scouts) called an Explorer
Group. They had them for police, fire, EMT, and probably others. Every
summer they allowed high school students to go to the Academy for a few
weeks, so one year I did.
: we covered the use of deadly force.
: ooooooh, I'm scared.
Fool. I'm not saying we learned HOW to apply deadly force, I'm
saying we learned WHEN and WHY to apply deadly force. Gods, you take
everything the wrong way.
:> And in Xena's time, police didn't even exist. You had guards and
:> soldiery who would take the job every now and then, but anyone could chase
:> down a criminal if they thought they could do it without being killed.
:> This has been done many times in the show. You obviously haven't been
:> paying attention or maybe just don't like what you see.
:> Deal with it.
: why don't you deal with my nuts, I'm sick of this arguement...you spin
: doctor, avoid certian things, change subjects, bring up the meaningless,
: insult people (who never even insulted you or had a problem with you),
: and basicly you just don'tfight fair, I don't think it's fair to put
: myself through the torture of answering your rediculously larg threads,
: so I'm calling it quits here, unless I change my mind later...
You couldn't say this at the BEGINNING of the fucking post?
BDangelico
Its really not even about opinion. Tarkd (and others) tell them all the facts,
in real life and in the show, yet they refuse to understand factual
information. Who here WOULDN'T use the hinds blood dagger on Lazarus and the
others lik him?? I know I WOULD...
BD
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: Well said tarkd. Im getting tired of reading those dumbass posts by Lazarus.
: Its really not even about opinion. Tarkd (and others) tell them all the facts,
: in real life and in the show, yet they refuse to understand factual
: information. Who here WOULDN'T use the hinds blood dagger on Lazarus and the
: others lik him?? I know I WOULD...
Now, now, let's wait until Lazarus murders someone before putting
him to death...You can't just kill someone because they're annoying or the
Olsen Twins would have been assassinated YEARS ago...
Lazarus
>
> Well said tarkd. Im getting tired of reading those dumbass posts by Lazarus.
Well, too bad, my dumbass posts are here to stay.
> Its really not even about opinion. Tarkd (and others) tell them all the facts,
> in real life and in the show, yet they refuse to understand factual
> information.
Well, if opinions are factual information I guess pigs can fly.
> Who here WOULDN'T use the hinds blood dagger on Lazarus and the
> others lik him?? I know I WOULD...
>
> BD
Yeah, your a real hero.
-lazarus-
Lazarus
> : burned -was- Xenas fault.
>
> No, fool, it ISN'T.
Awww, come on man, your hurting my feelings!
> Xena never ordered the burning of the town and
> she doesn't know if it was her troops or the other warlord's troops who
> did it.
look...I don't know how clearly your head thinks, but it must be fogged
over with "need to prove a point beyond all logic" syndrome. If
somebody is riding through villages murdering people, and looting, and
god only knows what else, they are responsible for the actions of thier
men, Xena was riding *with* that warlord, meaning they both were in
control of the army, meaning they both hold the responsibility.
> If Xena is responsible then the other warlord is JUST as
> responsible, yet Callisto doesn't go after HIM like a maniac.
that warlord already *died*
> And the
> soldiers who decided to start the burning are the MOST responsible, but
> they may already be dead.
It really doesn't matter anyhow, in the alt timeline of armagedon now2
Xena burned the town willingly, and ordered the women and children
slaughtered, she didn't give a rats ass. This showes that her mentality
was just as evil as Callisto, even Xena would admit that to you. It
wasn't the same mission, but it was the same *level* of
dangerousness...and that was the original point. It's pretty blatently
clear to me, Xena almost ruled *the world* and had thousands of people
hanging from crosses...if that doesn't proove to you that Xena was just
as dangerous as Callisto, I don't know what else will.
> I addressed your point directly. Not my fault if you didn't
> understand. Putting someone to death because of what they MIGHT do has
> vast amounts of historical precedent; there's no reason it can't happen in
> the Xenaverse.
> Deal with it, chump.
Aww, now your making me cry...stop it, please. You must have *VERY*
demented values if you believe in sentencing somebody to death for a
crime they haven't yet commited.
> : I don't care about juries, and all that other crap, I am
> : saying that "it is unjust to kill somebody because you take a guess that
> : they might be menaces to society"...
>
> And you would be wrong. There is historical precedent for you
> being wrong. This may be what you believe and how things would work in
> your perfect world, but that's not how they ACTUALLY ARE. Deal with it.
So you agree with murdering somebody for a crime they never committed?
> :> : You -guess- that she is unreformable, you have no proof of that except
> :> : that she was stubborn when we first met her and didn't want to change.
> :> : Callisto changed alot throughout the series, especially after finding
> :> : her parents in the underworld.
> :>
> :> Don't need proof.
So you A) don't need proof to kill somebody B) can kill anybody because
of a guess
> : you don't need proof of somebodys guilt in order to sentence them to
> : murder?
>
> No, dumbshit, you don't need proof that someone is a menace to
> society to sentence them to death. You only need reasonable certainty.
I think your losing your temper...thats not very polite :) anyhow, I
think it's pretty pathetic that you reason that one can be killed at any
time for the hell of it, because of anybodys decision that somebody else
is guilty of a crime they never even committed yet.
> _Proof_ would require, by your definition, them doing something violent
> and being stopped and killing in fair combat.
A justified murder would require somebody to *know* that the person is
going to commit a crime/murder before stopping them by means of killing.
> _My_ version requires only that they display a track record of
> extreme violence and disrespect for life and an obvious unwillingness to
> change.
Heres the part where *opinion* meets fact. Fact: nobody knows whether
Callisto would change or not...that is just an assumtion.
> This spares innocents from your "proof" being gathered at their
> expense, which is the whole POINT of putting someone who is a danger to
> death, to keep them from harming others.
Oh, yeah, lets just throw justice out the window, and murder people for
crimes they never committed.
> : ...your pretty rediculous, I'm going to stop carrying on this
> : conversation soon, because your just getting down right silly.
>
> And you can't spell. What are you, eight? Buy a dictionary.
Ohhh, now we are making fun of the spelling, I knew this would come up,
your just the type...
> You may think I'm getting silly, but the truth is that you just
> aren't listening. You've snipped away the relevent bits of my posts and
> responded only to the stuff that would appear ridiculous out of context.
LOL! I think you are having dilusions...I never even tried that, it's
funny how you snake out of situations like this, when your backed into a
corner you make excuses, and change the subject.
> In context, not needing proof was explained, but you snipped that part and
> I have to explain it AGAIN. *sigh*
ohhh, shoot, I was just about to re-post it for you in good faith to
show you that I am not trying to snip out any of your...stuff
> :> You're wrong: In my court of justice, someone could plead innocent
> :> of murder by saying "This dangerous criminal, who hasn't been brought to
> :> justice YET, and has a history of brutal crimes, was nearby gloating at
> :> the death of my best friend in such a way as to imply that she had found a
> :> purpose in life in the suffering of others. Clearly that cannot be borne,
> :> and as we are in the Xenaverse and not the 20th Century, my killing was
> :> justified."
>
> : lol!!!! Your really getting silly now. Lets take this apart: Callisto
> : laughing at Gabrielles death is not a good enough excuse for Xena to
> : murder her because a justifiable kill only comes from defence, not
> : revenge.
>
> That's your opinion. I think that giving a psychopath like
> Callisto a fair chance to kill someone before attacking her is the height
> of lunacy.
I think executing somebody for a crime that has not been committed is
lunacy.
> : Callisto potentially being harmfull in the future is also not
> : good enough because we can't go killing people over our guesses.
>
> We can and have over the years. Why do you deny actual historical
> fact? Hell, people used to be executed for _STEALING_, not just killing.
Yeah...thats *not* justice.
> And still you don't see that, regardless of your beliefs, the greater good
> actually IS served with the deaths of mass murderers like Callisto.
the greater good flourishes with a god system of justice. A good system
of justice does not allow people to be murdered for crimes they did not
commit.
> : The
> : fact that Callisto has a reckless past is also not a good enough reason
> : because Xena herself also has a reckless past, if not way more
> : reckless.
>
> Xena REFMORED her ways, freakshow! Callisto didn't, wouldn't,
> couldn't, didn't wanna.
I'm sorry, but I have to say it again: you don't *know* what Callisto
was going to do or was not going to do.
> : The fact that Callisto killed perdicus and participated in
> : killing solan isn't good enough because (judging from Callistos life
> : story) revenge is not a justifiable excuse to murder somebody.
>
> Keeping Callisto from doing that to anyone else's husband or son
> ever again IS a good enough reason however, and has nothing to do with
> revenge.
Well we don't know she was planning on doing that now do we?
> :> You seem to think that, in a time when courts were all local deal
> :> and there was no universal or national law system, killing a dangerous
> :> person was illegal. It wasn't. Any such killing was perfectly justified
> :> back then. THESE days all you can do it tazer or pepper-spray them and run
> :> to look for a cop.
>
> : the laws of human nature do not change with time...
>
> The laws humans make to govern themselves DO.
Where do you think these laws come from? The sky? They come from the
nature humans.
> This argument has
> nothing to do with human nature. Human nature doesn't decide what is and
> isn't murder, the LAWS humans follow do.
lol!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!! So, what your saying is that humans make up laws
for no real reason, and then follow them for no real reason, and the
nature of human beings has nothing to do with it?
> :> So why do we appoint PEOPLE as judges and juries? THEY can have
> :> lapse of judgement too...
>
> : Well, I'll admit that todays justic system is not "perfect" but it does
> : a decent job, they take weeks, and monthes reviewing things, and such,
> : it's alot different then one person coming to the sole conclusion of who
> : is guilty and who is innocent that decides whether a kill is just. It
> : takes a group of people in a court that examine endless facts, and
> : stuff. Even in a court they couldn't convict somebody of something they
> : *might* do in the future, it would be insane to put somebody in a court,
> : and say "your guilty of possibly killing somebody in the future so we
> : are sentencing you to death"
>
> You're right, they don't say that. What they DO say is, "Based on
> your past misdeeds and extensive psychoanalysis that shows you to be an
> unredeemable sociopath, I hereby sentence you to die by lethal injection
> on..."
Yeah, but there never was any psychoanalysis that proved Callisto to be
an "unreedemable" psychopath, also, the fact that you can't use "past
misdeeds" because Xena too has "past misdeeds" so that goes out the
window. Basicly what you seem to be saying is that if somebody decides
another person is an unreddemable psychopath it gives them a free ticket
to kill them regardless of whether they are just chilling watching tv
and basicly being harmless...
> They aren't convicted of what they MIGHT do, they are convicted on
> what they HAVE done. But they are sentenced based on the severity of the
> crime, the level of remorse from the defendant, and the likelihood of
> their being able to become a productive member of society again upon
> release.
> Callisto's crimes are too numerous to count, she has no remorse,
> she's not ever likely to become a productive member of society, thus her
> sentence would be SEVERE.
do you like masturbating with sandpaper? This is becoming
redundant...Xena was once all of those things also, she decided to
change and became a hero, and how are you suppossed to know Callisto
wouldn't change?
> :> No, chaos would be if you killed everybody with a sword or dagger
> :> because they might use it and then started looking for people with cooking
> :> knives.
>
> : what the hell are you talking about?
>
> You said we'd have chaos if we killed everyone who was a potential
> threat. Well, people with deadly weapons MUST be threats since they have
> the potential to stick people with those sharp pointy things. And, hey,
> cooking knives can be used as weapons, can't they? Well, kill anyone with
> one of those too! And then...
Yeah...duh, I was the one who said it would be chaos, are you slow?
> THAT'S chaos. Killing someone like Callisto, though, who has
> already BEEN a menace to society and has shown no signs on ever NOT being
> one, THAT'S justice.
Killing somebody over a crime they did not commit is madness, your sense
of justice *is* madness.
> Use a little common sense when arguing. I never said anything that
> even SOUNDED like your version of chaos and you SHOULD know it. I think
> you are taking what I say to an unintended extreme just to be difficult.
I'm showing you a side to your own arguement that you don't want to
see...
> I am being VERY specific, but you can't seem to see it. I refuse
> to spell it out again, it's been said in too many posts, but suffice it to
> say, Callisto was too dangerous to allow to live.
I know your kind very well...too well. You are going to isult me, and
say androgynous things, and repeat phrases like "deal with it" and
*sigh* to try and polish your arguement in a margine fake ass
iNteLigense you hope anyone who is reading this will think you are.
Well. I don't. Your a balloon full of hot air floating around waiting
to get banged by somebody like me. I would wish you peace, but you
would just inult me.
> :> Killing someone with a record like Callisto's on the other hand...
>
> : So you would have justified killing Xena before she changed?
>
> Depends on if she had been given a _chance_ to change. Hercules
> gave her that chance and she took it. If she hadn't she was free game,
> kill her if it was the only way to stop her.
Well, what about the fact that Borias gave her that chance, that her old
master gave her that chance, and she rejected it, Xena rejected change
just as much, if not more then Callisto, and had miles more help then
Callisto by her old master in china. So judging by this: You *do*
believe XWP should have been killed before the series began, because in
your book of laws she was *beyond help* she *had her chance to change*,
and she had a history of *bad deeds* and she was bound to continue on
her path (as Callisto is bound to continue on her path)...
> : You obey a
> : system that justifies the murder of all the good Xena would have done to
> : make amends for her wrong doings. You think anybody with a bad record
> : deserves killing?
>
> I think anybody with a bad record who is unwilling to change their
> ways should be killed. The "unwilling to change" part is vital.
> I've been saying this all along, why haven't you gotten it YET?
Xena *was* unwilling to change. She had way more help then Callisto
did...It took time for her to change...it takes time, and help. Killing
Callisto could have meant killing the greatest hero to ever live.
> :> You can be REASONABLY CERTAIN, and that's enough. "Proof" as you
> :> are putting it, can be deadly, and that's a price too high to pay.
>
> : The price of bending justice out of shape is even higher...
>
> Laws cannot be written to cover every circumstance, sometimes they
> have to be bent to see justice served.
So your telling me in order to serve justice you must bend it? Thats
pretty stupid.
> Besides, you are operating from the flawed notion that justice
> didn't include execution for mass murderers like Callisto in the
> Xenaverse. Bull. They were going to execute Meleagur (sp?) the Mighty for
> killing ONE MAN! Callisto killed lots more than that, yet you advocate her
> going free! And somehow _I'M_ the one with the loopy notions around here.
> Pardon me while I have a good belly laugh at your expense.
Excecution is not justice, Excecution is murder.
> : You can not kill people based on a guess. I can't even believe we are
> : having this arguement.
>
> Me neither. You are blind and naieve beyond belief.
So, I must be so blind that I can't see your wonderfull system of
justice which allows people to get murdered for *plausable* crimes in
the future they haven't even commited yet.
> :> No, you're telling it how you'd like it to be.
>
> : no, now your telling it how you would like to think I like it to be....
>
> No, I'm telling you that you're living in a dream world.
Well, at least it's a dream world with a logical system of justice :o)
> : Yeah...a bad analogy, and please stop sealing your own grave with the
> : need to rely on insults to prove your point, it really doesn't suit you.
>
> "Doesn't suit me"? You don't even KNOW me.
It doesn't suit your stance as a teacher.
> :> They're both fruits, just as the examples above are both dangers.
> :> Deal with it.
>
> : your analogys suck.
>
> Because they work against your arguments so well? Why, thank you.
They don't work in my arguements *at all* thats why they are completely
rediculous, I even laughed at them when I read them, because they were
retarded, it made me wonder if you even knew what an analogy was.
> : When life is at stake Caution is always a luxury one *has* to afford.
>
> That's just the problem, one you seem to keep ignoring when I
> bring it up (so kindly address it this time). Here it is:
> If I'm right, and Callisto IS a menace to society, and we use YOUR
> methods to figure that out, that means Callisto has to actually go out and
> ATTACK people, whether it's Xena & Crew or innocent bystanders, and try to
> kill them. Thus, LIFE IS AT STAKE!
Yes. If Callisto was putting another persons life at steak, she
deserves to be stopped by any means neccesary, but you can't stop
somebody by any means neccessary for doing nothing.
> More than Callisto's useless and
> detrimental existence, but the lives of people who don't deserve to die.
> And Xena can't be watching Callisto all the time, staying close to her
> with the Hind's Blood Dagger, ready to strike the instant Callisto raises
> her blade to somebody. That's impractical.
> Now, if you're right, Callisto won't attack anybody. But we don't
> know that and, based on her track record, the good bet would be on
> Callisto NOT reforming her ways.
Well, you can bet on whatever you like, but it's not for you to decide
whether she is or is not, because frankly *YOU DON'T KNOW*
> So you have two choices: Kill Callisto and remove a potential (and
> likely) and past danger from the world. OR, let Callisto go and wait and
> see what she does, with the potential for excessive destruction of
> innocent lives.
Heres my math: You let Callisto live, and try to help her, tell her if
she wants to die anyhow, why not at least see what it might be like to
live a little while longer and see if her pain can go away any other
way.
> Do the math: 1 person dies for certain, or dozens, possibly
> hundreds, MIGHT die at the hands of the one person you didn't kill.
> Quickly now, the choice of what to do with Callisto is all yours, do you
> want one person's blood on your hands for certain or the possibility for
> hundreds on your hands?
Your making up a hypothetical situation...you can't murder somebody over
a hypothetical situation. I would not murder her.
> Seen that way, howcan you POSSIBLY justify NOT killing Callisto?
simple...she didn't do anything.
> : The most important thing to prevent is ANY death at all...
>
> Too late. Callisto's killed tons of people already.
no she didn't...thats what is making our communication so staticy, your
arguement relys on a hypothetical situation.
> That cannot go
> unpunished, not can it be allowed to continue. IF we listened to you,
> Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy would all be free now. You
> can't coddle criminals if they won't reform their ways or if their past
> actions were disgusting.
If we listen to you all justice is lost, and with it, *WAY* more
bloodshed then Callisto would be resposible for.
> : I say stop them *as* they are doing it, and learn from that past how to
> : stop them in the present.
>
> And I still say that is DUMB DUMB DUMB.
...
> Why would you EVER let
> Callisto go, only to commit her acts of violence again, just so you can
> stop her readhanded? She could still kill someone in the process and
> there's no guarantee that someone with a hind's blood dagger will be
> around at the time. Your method doesn't prevent death, it encourages it.
My method is about sentencing people for crimes they commit, not
hypothetical situations.
> : You don't know that she is going to do it again, this is self-evident,
> : you can not execute somebody over a murder you -don't know- is going to
> : happen.
>
> Yes, you can, if that person has proven themselves over and over
> and over again, that they are capable of doing it. You very bloody well
> CAN do that, even in our world today you can do that.
Your system of justice is complete chaos...
> :> : When did Xena lift a finger to help Callisto? Name a few situations in
> :> : which Xena actually sat down and gave a good sporting try to help
> :> : Callisto deal with her pain.
> :>
> :> I've already done that and I'm sick of risking carpal tunnel
> :> syndrome so go back and read 'em again.
>
> : I don't even recall you mentioning that to me at all to be honest with
> : you...please re-enlighten me.
>
> No. Go get a Deja News account and re-read this thread, I'm sick
> of typing up 2000 line messages. This is taking up too much time as it is.
If you've already named a few situations (at least 5) in which Xena
actually sat down and gave a good sporting try to help Callisto deal
with her pain I know it by now. Since those situations don't exist I'm
forced to come to the conclusion that: Xena did not try very hard to
help Callisto.
> :> : Hey, I'm beating my head against your brick wall also, don't forget
> :> : that!
> :>
> :> Too bad your forehead hasn't dented yet.
>
> : too bad your hasn't either...or has it?
>
> No, I'm too smart to bash my head against walls. I wonder why YOU
> do.
I do it, because I enjoy a good conversation, and a good arguement.
> : yeah...duh. whats does that have to do with the arguement? the point
> : is that Callisto *was* restrained later on, and imprisoned for a time
> : being, and Xena made no effort to try and help Callisto then.
>
> She did. She tried to talk to Callisto while she was in the cell.
> Didn't work. Someone posted that conversation verbatim a few posts ago,
> maybe you should read that for a transcript.
> Besides, Callisto got out and wreaked more havoc, which only
> strengths the case against her ever being permanently reigned in.
I don't think you understand help. Help isn't when you say "sorry", or
"gee...did I do that? Did I burn down your fammilly, sorry" Help is
when you spend *quality* time with somebody and help them work through
thier problems, it takes weeks...
> : Yeah, thats a shitty way of going about things, and isn't justice.
>
> It IS justice, and you don't like it. Big deal.
now your telling me that "wanted dead or alive" *IS* justice?
> We don't have to
> like th law, we just have to follow it. If the law pisses you off, you get
> voted into a position where you can make changes.
> But just because you don't like it doesn't make it not so.
justice -is- real, the law is a concept of justice, and it may not
always be right or wrong, depending on how good the concept is or not.
> : Justice is not something people can change at the flip of a coin.
> : Justice is about respecting one another, and learning to live in peace
> : rather then like animals. Justice is the same for all humans.
>
> No, justice is the application of the punishment aspect of the
> law. Laws are written by those in power.
Laws shmaus, I'm not even talking about law, I'm talking about following
the justice in your heart, and it's as real as anything else, it's like
mathematics, not real, yet real at the same time.
> You are not talking about justice, you are talking about something
> entirely different. You are not talking about anything that even works in
> the real world, only on paper or in the heads of idealists. Maybe some
> people want to live in harmony, but there are always those who will prey
> on the weak.
Just because somebody follows thier own heart does not make them weak.
> Justice is about keeping people SAFE from those who would prey
> upon them; it has nothing to do with respect. Justice comes from people
> saying "This is what is acceptable in our society. This is what is NOT
> acceptable. And this is the punishment if you do something that isn't
> acceptable." Simple as that. But in each country, state, town, whatever,
> there are different laws because people in different places believe
> different things and choose to live different ways.
Justice is the concept of judging yourself as well as judging others.
> A long time ago, Black people weren't allowed BY LAW to sit at
> certain places, drink from certain water fountains, go to certain schools,
> etc. What did that have to do with respect? Or living in peace? And yet,
> it was LAW, part of the justice system...and it was only a law in certain
> places, like the South. You went up north to New England or something, and
> such rules were either non-existant or lesser or just not enforced. Law,
> and thus justice, changed when you changed your location.
Thats law, the concept of justice...it changed throughout history.
> Some states in the US don't have the death penalty, some do. Law
> changes with location. Some states allow the sale of medical marijuana,
> some don't. Law changes with location.
> Laws are the written rules enforced by the justice system. There
> is no universal justice system that the entire world lives by. If you
> think so, you are deluding yourself.
No I'm not...there is a universal system of justice, just as there is a
metric system. It's a mental concept based on mathematics, like
language. Let me ask you: Would it be justice if someone shot you in
the head for no reason except for the fun of it? no. That is where the
universal system of justice begins.
> : Let me ask you this...how can you be so sure of yourself?
>
> Because I've done my homework. You seem to be talking completely
> out of your own beliefs, but I'm talking FACT.
I rely on facts also!
> Read what I wrote above
> about justice and how it contradicts what you've said. I used historical
> FACT to back up what I'm saying and all you have to respond with is "Well,
> I don't feel that way."
> Sorry, bucko, but the facts speak and they say you are wrong.
I don't think so.
Lazarus
>
> Not that I have any intention of getting deeply involved in this discussion,
> since it seems to be giving off a lot more heat than light, but...
I'm not responsible for the heat portion, I am simply defending my
point, whether people I don't know want to call me names, and start beef
is there buisiness and thier responsibility, I usually don't disresepct
anybody, I come to realizations, and if somebody can convince me that
I'm wrong, then I will take thier side..
> Lazarus wrote:
> [snip]
> >It really doesn't matter anyhow, in the alt timeline of armagedon now2
> >Xena burned the town willingly, and ordered the women and children
> >slaughtered, she didn't give a rats ass.
> [snip]
>
> No, that's not true. She specifically ordered her troops to get the women and
> children out before "wasting" the place.
>
> --Sekhmet
Your right, but, that still doesn't deviate my point that Xena would
have burned Cirra down at the toss of a hat. Regardless of all this BS,
Xena was responsible for the actions of her army, even she would agree
with that, if she chose to ride with another warlord and thier army it
doesn't make her any less responsible. If I rode into a town with an
army ready to cause havok, plunder, steal, and kill, and the village
caught fire and people died I would consider myself responsible, any
person with the understanding of responsiblity would.
-Lazarus-
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> _My_ version requires only that they display a track record of
:> extreme violence and disrespect for life and an obvious unwillingness to
:> change.
: Heres the part where *opinion* meets fact. Fact: nobody knows whether
: Callisto would change or not...that is just an assumtion.
No, fool, and this is the part you seem to be completely ignoring,
Callisto has DEMONSTRATED MANY TIMES that attempts to change her wouldn't
work. She's out of chances to change, it's too late. YOU are being too
lenient on Callisto, acting as though, just because she hasn't changed
before, we have to keep putting up with her nonsense until someone gets
through. The world doesn't work like that. The price of allowing her to
live is too high. How do you justify trying to save this ONE life at the
cost of many many others?
:> This spares innocents from your "proof" being gathered at their
:> expense, which is the whole POINT of putting someone who is a danger to
:> death, to keep them from harming others.
: Oh, yeah, lets just throw justice out the window, and murder people for
: crimes they never committed.
Do you have NO ability to extrapolate likely courses of action of
another person based on past events? Is there no one that you know who's
actions are so predictable that you can know what they're going to do
given a certain set of conditions, BASED ENTIRELY ON PAST EVENTS? And do
you not modify your behavior accordingly?
:> : ...your pretty rediculous, I'm going to stop carrying on this
:> : conversation soon, because your just getting down right silly.
:>
:> And you can't spell. What are you, eight? Buy a dictionary.
: Ohhh, now we are making fun of the spelling, I knew this would come up,
: your just the type...
"...you're...", "...YOU'RE just the type..." It's short for "you
are". Sheesh. Of course it came up, it's just another nail in your coffin
in terms of any respect due to you.
:> That's your opinion. I think that giving a psychopath like
:> Callisto a fair chance to kill someone before attacking her is the height
:> of lunacy.
: I think executing somebody for a crime that has not been committed is
: lunacy.
Then explain how you propose to stop Callisto, should she decide
to perpetrate another crime, possibly much later, without allowing her to
kill anybody.
:> We can and have over the years. Why do you deny actual historical
:> fact? Hell, people used to be executed for _STEALING_, not just killing.
: Yeah...thats *not* justice.
Bull. That was the legal, crown supported punishment for theft,
way back when. That, by it's very nature, IS justice. You may not like it,
but justice is mandated by the rulers of a given land, whether they are
royalty or elected by the people.
:> And still you don't see that, regardless of your beliefs, the greater good
:> actually IS served with the deaths of mass murderers like Callisto.
: the greater good flourishes with a god system of justice. A good system
: of justice does not allow people to be murdered for crimes they did not
: commit.
A good system of justice will remove dangerous elements from
society, based on their past records, to keep them from doing it over and
over and over.
:> Xena REFMORED her ways, freakshow! Callisto didn't, wouldn't,
:> couldn't, didn't wanna.
: I'm sorry, but I have to say it again: you don't *know* what Callisto
: was going to do or was not going to do.
I know what she HAD done, I know she refused too many chances, I
know she expressed herself in terms that indicated she still didn't care
about anyone's life. With that sort of evidence at hand, I'm NOT going to
allow her to START another crime before I put her down, that's just asking
for trouble.
:> Keeping Callisto from doing that to anyone else's husband or son
:> ever again IS a good enough reason however, and has nothing to do with
:> revenge.
: Well we don't know she was planning on doing that now do we?
So what. Big deal. She gave no indication that she WOULDN'T, and
her past record showed that she had the willingness and the skill to do
it. Unless Xena wasnted to dog her steps for the rest of Callisto's life,
she was a perpetual danger to anyone near her. That simply cannot be
allowed.
:> : the laws of human nature do not change with time...
:>
:> The laws humans make to govern themselves DO.
: Where do you think these laws come from? The sky? They come from the
: nature humans.
And yet, there are systems of justice that do not follow your
ideal. Explain that, chester!
:> This argument has
:> nothing to do with human nature. Human nature doesn't decide what is and
:> isn't murder, the LAWS humans follow do.
: lol!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!! So, what your saying is that humans make up laws
: for no real reason, and then follow them for no real reason, and the
: nature of human beings has nothing to do with it?
No, I'm saying that humans makes laws to protect themselves from
people like Callisto, Autolycus, and even Xena. They want security,
harmony, and happiness; these things are taken from them by Callisto in
the form of violence and death, from Autlycus in the form of theft, from
Xena also in the form of violence and death.
No civilization will tolerate the death of anyone who doesn't
deserve it. Generally, there are people who are employed to dish out such
justice, but way back before the industrial revolution, vigilante justice,
bounty hunting (which still goes on), and mob justice often ruled without
complaint from the local leaders. And for what reason? Becuase THE PEOPLE
demanded it. Death is a deterrent; if the penalty for a crime is death
then that crime is avoided at all costs except by the very skilled and
nimble.
You may not like such a draconian system, but it IS a valid form
of justice, probably still used in places today, though not in the US.
Your belief system is idealistic but not REALISTIC. Sorry.
:> You're right, they don't say that. What they DO say is, "Based on
:> your past misdeeds and extensive psychoanalysis that shows you to be an
:> unredeemable sociopath, I hereby sentence you to die by lethal injection
:> on..."
: Yeah, but there never was any psychoanalysis that proved Callisto to be
: an "unreedemable" psychopath,
Because such a system was unavailable in Xena's time, which I've
said before. People had to use their judgement in lieu of a shrink.
: also, the fact that you can't use "past
: misdeeds" because Xena too has "past misdeeds" so that goes out the
: window.
No, it isn't. That's one of the established logical fallacies. I'd
quote the Latin name at you if I could remember it, but it doesn't hold
any water to argue that a person cannot be found guilty of a crime simply
because another person has done the same thing or worse. That's simply
incorrect logic.
: Basicly what you seem to be saying is that if somebody decides
: another person is an unreddemable psychopath it gives them a free ticket
: to kill them regardless of whether they are just chilling watching tv
: and basicly being harmless...
I'm saying that's how it works in the Xenaverse, yes. You do that
TODAY in our world and you'll be convicted of murder yourself, simply
because there are facilities in place to deal with unredeemable
psychopaths. That, and this person wouldn't be a GOD who cannot be
contained except by the one weapon that happened to be on hand at the
time, since in our world there is no proof that there even ARE gods.
But, given the conditions present at the time of Callisto's death,
the course of action taken was logical, justified, and practical. You have
to understand that; there was NOTHING ELSE THAT COULD BE DONE that would
have the effect of neutralizing Callisto.
Look, if there had been a way that was as 100% certain as sticking
her with that dagger that would neutralize the threat that Callisto
represented, I'd argue that it should have been taken. But there are only
POSSIBLE solutions, and the level of danger Callisto as a GOD represented
was just too much.
:> They aren't convicted of what they MIGHT do, they are convicted on
:> what they HAVE done. But they are sentenced based on the severity of the
:> crime, the level of remorse from the defendant, and the likelihood of
:> their being able to become a productive member of society again upon
:> release.
:> Callisto's crimes are too numerous to count, she has no remorse,
:> she's not ever likely to become a productive member of society, thus her
:> sentence would be SEVERE.
: do you like masturbating with sandpaper? This is becoming
: redundant...Xena was once all of those things also, she decided to
: change and became a hero, and how are you suppossed to know Callisto
: wouldn't change?
Because she was given the same chances Xena was and she didn't
take them.
:> You said we'd have chaos if we killed everyone who was a potential
:> threat. Well, people with deadly weapons MUST be threats since they have
:> the potential to stick people with those sharp pointy things. And, hey,
:> cooking knives can be used as weapons, can't they? Well, kill anyone with
:> one of those too! And then...
: Yeah...duh, I was the one who said it would be chaos, are you slow?
I'm the one paraphrasing your own words back to you. Did you stop
reading after this paragraph? Cuz there's more that explains why the above
is a load of dung.
:> THAT'S chaos. Killing someone like Callisto, though, who has
:> already BEEN a menace to society and has shown no signs on ever NOT being
:> one, THAT'S justice.
: Killing somebody over a crime they did not commit is madness, your sense
: of justice *is* madness.
No, my sense of justice puts the needs of the people before the
needs of the provably dangerous. Doing otherwise is madness, for it
protects no one.
:> Use a little common sense when arguing. I never said anything that
:> even SOUNDED like your version of chaos and you SHOULD know it. I think
:> you are taking what I say to an unintended extreme just to be difficult.
: I'm showing you a side to your own arguement that you don't want to
: see...
No, you are twisting what I'm saying until it no longer means what
I intended. That isn't good arguing, that's trying to prove a point by
making yourself sound stupid, like you don't understand what's being said.
:> I am being VERY specific, but you can't seem to see it. I refuse
:> to spell it out again, it's been said in too many posts, but suffice it to
:> say, Callisto was too dangerous to allow to live.
: I know your kind very well...too well. You are going to isult me, and
: say androgynous things,
EXCUSE ME??? Say androgynous things? What, did I imply that I'm
male and then later imply that I'm female? (To be honest, I don't think
I've implied either one directly) OR did you mean "ambiguous"?
: and repeat phrases like "deal with it" and
: *sigh* to try and polish your arguement in a margine fake ass
: iNteLigense you hope anyone who is reading this will think you are.
I say "Deal with it" and "*sigh*" simply because I'm dealing with
a world class ignoramus with some sort of utopian complex idea of justice
who wouldn't know reality or security if it walked up and sang "Do Wah
Ditty".
: Well. I don't. Your a balloon full of hot air floating around waiting
: to get banged by somebody like me. I would wish you peace, but you
: would just inult me.
You can wish me peace all you want, I want logic.
:> : So you would have justified killing Xena before she changed?
:>
:> Depends on if she had been given a _chance_ to change. Hercules
:> gave her that chance and she took it. If she hadn't she was free game,
:> kill her if it was the only way to stop her.
: Well, what about the fact that Borias gave her that chance, that her old
: master gave her that chance, and she rejected it, Xena rejected change
: just as much, if not more then Callisto, and had miles more help then
: Callisto by her old master in china. So judging by this: You *do*
: believe XWP should have been killed before the series began, because in
: your book of laws she was *beyond help* she *had her chance to change*,
: and she had a history of *bad deeds* and she was bound to continue on
: her path (as Callisto is bound to continue on her path)...
Sure, why not? Still, it seems that some people were fairly
tolerant of Xena because she didn't seem to kill for the glee of it, nor
did she just go about waxing innocents if she could help it, she killed
armies instead. She wasn't out of chances yet. She finally took one.
:> I think anybody with a bad record who is unwilling to change their
:> ways should be killed. The "unwilling to change" part is vital.
:> I've been saying this all along, why haven't you gotten it YET?
: Xena *was* unwilling to change. She had way more help then Callisto
: did...It took time for her to change...it takes time, and help. Killing
: Callisto could have meant killing the greatest hero to ever live.
Since when? I don't think that killing Callisto would have any
bearing on Superman's demise...
Seriously though, Xena was not unwilling to change or she never
would have taken Lao Ma up on her offers. That PROVES Xena was willing to
change.
:> Laws cannot be written to cover every circumstance, sometimes they
:> have to be bent to see justice served.
: So your telling me in order to serve justice you must bend it? Thats
: pretty stupid.
I'm saying that in order to serve justice you cannot be rigidly
locked into a limiting set of "if - then" statements. Circumstances have
to be considered and new laws have to go in effect when it is shown that a
current law is worded poorly or has a loophole.
Sheesh, a little common sense, that's all I ask, but I get these
replies like above that show no ability to think outside a certain
paradigm.
:> Besides, you are operating from the flawed notion that justice
:> didn't include execution for mass murderers like Callisto in the
:> Xenaverse. Bull. They were going to execute Meleagur (sp?) the Mighty for
:> killing ONE MAN! Callisto killed lots more than that, yet you advocate her
:> going free! And somehow _I'M_ the one with the loopy notions around here.
:> Pardon me while I have a good belly laugh at your expense.
: Excecution is not justice, Excecution is murder.
*sigh* I hear Captain Hook needs a ship's parrot; seeing as how
you're so good a parroting your silly rhetoric, why don't you apply?
:> Me neither. You are blind and naieve beyond belief.
: So, I must be so blind that I can't see your wonderfull system of
: justice which allows people to get murdered for *plausable* crimes in
: the future they haven't even commited yet.
Wonderful has ONE l. "Plausible".
You must be blind and naieve to think that allowing Callisto to
commit another crime before killing her is going to be justice. Her life
isn't worth the life of the next person she kills nor the other people she
has already killed.
:> "Doesn't suit me"? You don't even KNOW me.
: It doesn't suit your stance as a teacher.
You know, you're like Callisto yourself. You cannot be reasoned
with, you respond with the same thing every time it's tried, and there's
simply no hope for change. Any real teacher would have you stuck in the
remedial class long ago.
:> That's just the problem, one you seem to keep ignoring when I
:> bring it up (so kindly address it this time). Here it is:
:> If I'm right, and Callisto IS a menace to society, and we use YOUR
:> methods to figure that out, that means Callisto has to actually go out and
:> ATTACK people, whether it's Xena & Crew or innocent bystanders, and try to
:> kill them. Thus, LIFE IS AT STAKE!
: Yes. If Callisto was putting another persons life at steak, she
: deserves to be stopped by any means neccesary, but you can't stop
: somebody by any means neccessary for doing nothing.
"Stake" no "steak" you moron. Buy a dictionary.
Yes, you can stop somebody by any means necessary for doing
nothing. The CAPABILITY and WILLINGNESS to do something DEMANDS that
innocent lives be protected.
:> Now, if you're right, Callisto won't attack anybody. But we don't
:> know that and, based on her track record, the good bet would be on
:> Callisto NOT reforming her ways.
: Well, you can bet on whatever you like, but it's not for you to decide
: whether she is or is not, because frankly *YOU DON'T KNOW*
KNOWING requires TESTING, which means that Callisto has to
actually BE a danger to know, and thus you are using innocent lives as
BAIT for Callisto before taking her down. And you call ME crazy!
:> So you have two choices: Kill Callisto and remove a potential (and
:> likely) and past danger from the world. OR, let Callisto go and wait and
:> see what she does, with the potential for excessive destruction of
:> innocent lives.
: Heres my math: You let Callisto live, and try to help her, tell her if
: she wants to die anyhow, why not at least see what it might be like to
: live a little while longer and see if her pain can go away any other
: way.
You left out the part about what happens if Callisto DOESN'T
change. This is why I think you are blind and naieve. You KNOW Callisto is
a killer, yet you refuse to even acknowlege the possibility that she could
STILL BE ONE.
What do you do if Callisto, the goddess after eating ambrosia,
decides she doesn't want to listen to you? What do you do then? What if
Callisto decides to go on a killing spree after you do talk to her? What
do you do then?
Your plan only allows for one thing: Callisto getting "better".
And if that doesn't happen, the world is SCREWED because she's a god. Face
facts, little person, Callisto isn't worth the time, effort, or pain
involved if your efforts fail.
:> Do the math: 1 person dies for certain, or dozens, possibly
:> hundreds, MIGHT die at the hands of the one person you didn't kill.
:> Quickly now, the choice of what to do with Callisto is all yours, do you
:> want one person's blood on your hands for certain or the possibility for
:> hundreds on your hands?
: Your making up a hypothetical situation...you can't murder somebody over
: a hypothetical situation. I would not murder her.
Address the points brought up or stop talking. In this siutation
given, which WAS the situation right before Callisto's death, which of
those options would you choose? Don't evade the issue.
:> Seen that way, howcan you POSSIBLY justify NOT killing Callisto?
: simple...she didn't do anything.
What about the fact that she COULD and never gave any idication
that she WOULDN'T?
:> : The most important thing to prevent is ANY death at all...
:>
:> Too late. Callisto's killed tons of people already.
: no she didn't...thats what is making our communication so staticy, your
: arguement relys on a hypothetical situation.
No, dumb ass, she killed a bunch of people to frame Xena when we
first ever met her. Her army razed several villages just to tarnish Xena's
name. She HAS killed tons of people.
:> That cannot go
:> unpunished, not can it be allowed to continue. IF we listened to you,
:> Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy would all be free now. You
:> can't coddle criminals if they won't reform their ways or if their past
:> actions were disgusting.
: If we listen to you all justice is lost, and with it, *WAY* more
: bloodshed then Callisto would be resposible for.
No, there wouldn't. How can you even think that?
:> Why would you EVER let
:> Callisto go, only to commit her acts of violence again, just so you can
:> stop her readhanded? She could still kill someone in the process and
:> there's no guarantee that someone with a hind's blood dagger will be
:> around at the time. Your method doesn't prevent death, it encourages it.
: My method is about sentencing people for crimes they commit, not
: hypothetical situations.
Then Callisto was executed for all the innocent villagers she's
killed to date.
:> and over again, that they are capable of doing it. You very bloody well
:> CAN do that, even in our world today you can do that.
: Your system of justice is complete chaos...
No, my justice system has the lives of the people in mind.
:> No. Go get a Deja News account and re-read this thread, I'm sick
:> of typing up 2000 line messages. This is taking up too much time as it is.
: If you've already named a few situations (at least 5) in which Xena
: actually sat down and gave a good sporting try to help Callisto deal
: with her pain I know it by now. Since those situations don't exist I'm
: forced to come to the conclusion that: Xena did not try very hard to
: help Callisto.
*sigh* You're wrong, they do exist, go back in this thread and
read them.
:> She did. She tried to talk to Callisto while she was in the cell.
:> Didn't work. Someone posted that conversation verbatim a few posts ago,
:> maybe you should read that for a transcript.
:> Besides, Callisto got out and wreaked more havoc, which only
:> strengths the case against her ever being permanently reigned in.
: I don't think you understand help. Help isn't when you say "sorry", or
: "gee...did I do that? Did I burn down your fammilly, sorry" Help is
: when you spend *quality* time with somebody and help them work through
: thier problems, it takes weeks...
"Quality time"???? With Callisto? Forget about it.
:> We don't have to
:> like th law, we just have to follow it. If the law pisses you off, you get
:> voted into a position where you can make changes.
:> But just because you don't like it doesn't make it not so.
: justice -is- real, the law is a concept of justice, and it may not
: always be right or wrong, depending on how good the concept is or not.
No, idiot, justice IS laws and their application.
:> No, justice is the application of the punishment aspect of the
:> law. Laws are written by those in power.
: Laws shmaus, I'm not even talking about law, I'm talking about following
: the justice in your heart, and it's as real as anything else, it's like
: mathematics, not real, yet real at the same time.
And that's the problem: no one's heart works the same as anyone
else's, that's why we have WRITTEN laws to follow. THAT'S justice.
:> You are not talking about justice, you are talking about something
:> entirely different. You are not talking about anything that even works in
:> the real world, only on paper or in the heads of idealists. Maybe some
:> people want to live in harmony, but there are always those who will prey
:> on the weak.
: Just because somebody follows thier own heart does not make them weak.
It only makes them wrong when it comes to law and justice.
:> Justice is about keeping people SAFE from those who would prey
:> upon them; it has nothing to do with respect. Justice comes from people
:> saying "This is what is acceptable in our society. This is what is NOT
:> acceptable. And this is the punishment if you do something that isn't
:> acceptable." Simple as that. But in each country, state, town, whatever,
:> there are different laws because people in different places believe
:> different things and choose to live different ways.
: Justice is the concept of judging yourself as well as judging others.
No, fool, that's something else entirely.
:> Some states in the US don't have the death penalty, some do. Law
:> changes with location. Some states allow the sale of medical marijuana,
:> some don't. Law changes with location.
:> Laws are the written rules enforced by the justice system. There
:> is no universal justice system that the entire world lives by. If you
:> think so, you are deluding yourself.
: No I'm not...there is a universal system of justice, just as there is a
: metric system.
ROFLMAO! The metric system isn't used in the US! You just totally
refuted your own argument! If the US doesn't use the metric system, then
it's possible that someone doesn't use your universal system of justice
either. Hah! Think out your arguments before you voice 'em!
:> Because I've done my homework. You seem to be talking completely
:> out of your own beliefs, but I'm talking FACT.
: I rely on facts also!
No, you don't. Your only "fact" so far is that everybody has a
sense of justice in their heart and that sense is the same for all, which
is total bullshite. You've never been inside my head, or my heart, you
don't know what I feel, how I think, how I reason, what I consider right
or wrong. And I'm just one person. There's SIX BILLION PEOPLE with whom
you've never had a psychic link. You know only what's in YOUR heart and
mind.
Lazarus
have better things to do...no insult to you, I really enjoyed the
arguement, but these messages are getting so long that I just can't even
fit it into my schedual anymore, I never meant to disrespect you by
disagreeing with, I was just defending my arguement, I could continue,
but it's really just not worth it, theres nothing in it for me, I wish
you peace, and I hope theres no hard feelings, I also hope that you at
least consider my end of the arguement, because I am trying to consider
yours...
-lazarus-
ranlauren
Rooth (habitual dissident, unbeliever and cheeky bugger)
ta...@IfYouSpamMeIWillHaveYouKilled.cris.com wrote:
> ranlauren <ranl...@corplink.com.au> wrote:
> : I think we need to tease apart the issue of capital punishment from the issue of
> : stopping people who are an immense danger.
>
> : We don't do this in quite a few other places. You're in danger of losing the
> : majority of Australians, if you presume capital punishment in the real world. We
> : might feel like doing it, but the majority of us do not think that it should actually
> : be done.
>
> To be honest, I'm not an advocate of capital punishment
> myself...in the real world. I'm simply arguing that, as far as the rules
> of the Xenaverse are concerned, capital punishment seems to be the rule
> rather than the exception.
> If Callisto had existed in our day, she might still have been
> executed (in the 'States, at least. Like those guys who started the
> Oklahoma City bombing, Callisto is guilty of mass murder) but if I were
> the judge I'd put her in a mental institution for _extensive_ treatment,
> or possibly life in prison without the possibility of parole. (This is, of
> course, assuming that she wasn't a _god_ like she was when she was killed
> in Xena's world)
> This isn't how Xena's world works, and that's a major part of my
> argument. I'm not actually advocating a lot of what I say, I'm just
> thinking outside my own morals and ethics and looking at the ones
> presented to us on screen. With that in mind, Xena's killing Callisto
> _cannot_ be murder.
>
> : Yeah, I do know the Xenaverse isn't here. Just pointing out that you could be
> : alieanating people to your agument, right there.
>
> My goals in life do not include attracting groupies.
>
Sekhmet209
since it seems to be giving off a lot more heat than light, but...
Lazarus wrote:
[snip]
>It really doesn't matter anyhow, in the alt timeline of armagedon now2
>Xena burned the town willingly, and ordered the women and children
>slaughtered, she didn't give a rats ass.
BDangelico
>facts,
>> in real life and in the show, yet they refuse to understand factual
>> information.
>
>Well, if opinions are factual information I guess pigs can fly.
Only one thing is our opinion: that Xena did NOT murder Callisto, and that
Callisto deserved to die. What we use to back up our opinion is TOTALLY FACTUAL
AND OBVIOUS.They're FACTS in real-life situations, they're FACTS from episodes
of the show. YOU, you just obviously don't pay any attention to them.
BD
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: TarkD, forget it, I didn't even read your new post, because i honestly
*sigh* I honestly did want you to answer a few of the questions I
had asked. You side stepped them every time they were asked though,
claiming they weren't relevent. I still think that, had you taken the time
to answer them, you might actually have SEEN my point, which I don't think
you ever truly did.
But, whatever. It's over, finally. I'm tired, the posts were too
long, and I probably have carpal tunnel syndrome. Enough is too much.
Later.
Callistoee
result. I have a few things I wanted to get out before this is over that I
thought someone or another was missing.
There is seldom the opportunity to stop someone from commiting a crime that you
can see and be absolutely sure of. Like killing them just as they're about to
stab an innocent person. That's the kind of killing that really feels
justified and comfortable and we see all the time on television. People are
executed on the spot to prevent them from doing something that there is proof
they're about to do. In reality, if that's the only time we severely punished
people, society would almost surely have collapsed into anarchy by now. Most
people, IMO, accept that to maintain civilization, we must punish people
*after* they have committed crimes. In punishing them, we are not saying that
they can never change, that they're unreformable, but that the risk of them not
changing is too great to take a chance on. If we took so many risks that had
such a high probability of failure, we'd almost certainly lose everything,
sooner or later. We'd be back in the dark ages. If some people are willing to
take such risks for their belief systems--such as that its categorically wrong
to punish people for things that have already been done--well, you can't change
their beliefs. I don't believe this myself. I think its logical to think that
the current justice system does save the greatest number of lives and that the
greater good is the most important consideration, not just out of selflessness,
but because each individual, statistically speaking, will benefit the most
under such a system.
However, I also think it would have been heroic for Xena to have tried to
change Callisto, especially during the times that she had Callisto already
restrained. I don't want to get into a blow by blow account of every little
thing Xena tried, but I see little alternative, as I keep seeing all these
strong assertions with scant and misleadingly represented evidence that Calliso
had so many people help her and had all these chances at least as much as Xena
to change and is thus totally different than Xena. IMO there was very little
indeed that Xena did, and even less was clearly intended for the purpose of
trying to change Callisto. One thing no one seems to remember is that Xena
tells Theodorus near the beginning to convey a message to Callisto: "Now
remember to tell her this. She's right, I made her, and I'll be the one to
destroy her." Examples mentioned have included Xena apologizing. That's a
start. That lays the foundation for help and makes it possible, but is not
help itself. However, Xena only said this after Callisto had started talking
to her and bringing up a lot of good points that made Xena look bad. Xena
didn't even stop to look at Callisto when she apologized. She might as well
have added the line "But my apology and any reaction of yours to it changes
nothing. You're going to prison now." Then there's Xena offering to let
Callisto go free with no strings attached. That's not helping her either.
That's tantamount to an endorsement of her going on doing what she's been doing
all along. Then there was her talking to her once she had got her to prison.
I hate to break it to some people who recall some sort of attempt there, but
Xena stood with her back to Callisto the whole time except for one line of
dialogue, the only thing she said the whole time while Callisto was imprisoned:
"Don't worry, I won't let anything happen to you without a fair trial." This
was in response to Callisto bringing up all kinds of interesting points and
asking her questions that Xena completely ignored. Then we get to Xena
arriving in Callisto's camp after Callisto has captured Gabrielle. Again, Xena
says nothing. Callisto starts a fight that she proclaims is just to see who is
a best fighter, and Xena has no objection to that.
Then we get to "Return of Callisto." Callisto says "I missed you, Xena."
What's Xena's response? "You never wrote." She's makes a joke and says
nothing more, as if the outcome is foregone conclusion and she's keeping
herself amused. Again, that Callisto can't change and doesn't want to change.
She just waits for Callisto to make a move so that she'll have an excuse to
fight her. Callisto has to endanger an innocent to get Xena to do anything.
By endangering the innocent, Callisto gets Xena at the point of her sword and
could kill her right there, but has another long monologue again and spares her
life. And what does Xena have to say about that? Absolutely nothing.
Callisto must eventually leave because Xena just lies there. Next, Xena stops
Callisto from killing Gabrielle and Callisto says she longs to see Xena wailing
over the body of her friend. What is Xena's sum response to that? "Well, its
not going to happen." If anything, Xena seems to just try to antagonize
Callisto and get her to give her an excuse to kill her. Then Callisto kills
Perdicus. Xena says nothing. Does she even try to chase after Callisto? No,
she just hunches down next to Gabrielle, watching Callisto ride off. She might
as well have said she was glad Perdicus was dead and was giving Callisto a
temporary reprieve for doing her a favor. Next, Xena plots to go after
Callisto in her lair. From the way she was talking, it sounded like she was
just going to go in and kill her while she slept, as Gabrielle almost did. But
Callisto captures her and Xena won't try to reason with her even to save their
lives. Xena has a total of two lines: "Don’t get too fond of it" (in regard to
Callisto saying she liked Xena's chakram) and "It ain’t over till it’s over."
(in response to Callisto asking her how she thinks she can avoid death). Xena,
of course, eventually escapes, and goes after Callisto (after Gabrielle yelling
"Get her, Xena!" which probably means 'Kill her for me so I don't lose my blood
innocence!') Next, Xena and Callisto fall into some Callisto. Xena has one
line, once again only because Callisto asked her a question: "Always the
optimist." And then that's it. Not even a "What would you do if I let you
go?" this time. She watches immobile as Callisto begs in the most
heartwrenching manner for her life I've ever seen without a word.
Next comes "Intimate Stranger." Here there's some small debate over whether
Xena letting Callisto die was an execution or not. I don't much care to argue
which it was. The point is Xena again just stands around doing nothing.
Callisto draws her into the underworld. Xena stands there indifferent as
Callisto just walks around her, talking. After cajoling, Xena admits to
murdering Callisto because she feels guilty about it. Once Callisto gets in
Xena's body, Xena can't kill her or she'd be killing her own body, or else Xena
probably would have done just that. The story is cleverly written to avoid us
having to think about such things. What Xena does is manage to get to Callisto
the same way Callisto got to her: guilt. So Xena *knows* that Callisto feels
some guilt or else she wouldn't have been able to invade her dreams. Xena gets
Callisto's mother to appear and make her feel even more guilty. It seems to
work. Then she gets into another guilt trip with "How many of your victims had
faces, Callisto?" yadda, yadda, yadda, and so Callisto remembers them, enabling
them to appear and surround Callisto. Then Xena tells Callisto that she's
through feeling guilty about Callisto. How nice for her! She tells Callisto
that all the burden of her crimes is off on Callisto now. She might as well
have added "Deal with it" in an insulting tone. But we can't have heros saying
things like that, now can we? So Xena settles for "You can’t shut it out. It’s
like a crashing wave. Once it starts, there’s no stopping it." Xena just
managed to shut out her feelings of guilt completely, but for Callisto there's
no stopping it. And then Arleia, Callisto's mother, delivers the final blow,
telling her "you have to face your crimes" and then Callisto is thrown into a
wall and disappears and we're all supposed to feel good about goodness
triumphing. Where did Callisto go? She must have gone to Tartarus cuz that's
where she is when we next see her in "Surprise." Yeah, she's really gonna face
her crimes in an environment of hellish torture with the only people to talk to
being people as bad as or worse than her. And how exactly is it that anyone
would know if she suddenly faced her crimes. Would a Hades manager cry "Red
alert! Callisto just faced her crimes. Bring in some good people to talk with
her so that she become a good person and be transferred to the Elysian Fields."
Somehow I got the impression that Tartarus was for those who were
fundamentally evil and beyond hope and they would be suffering for eternity.
Next comes "Surprise" and Hercules has a chance to try to help someone whose
life had been a living hell before she even went to Tartarus and now must be in
an even more fragile mental state after suffering there for awhile. She's
shown in the intro just screaming out in total agony at nothing. When Herc
finds her, she's poisoned his family to get him to cooperate with her so that
she can stay alive, knowing that a person's family means the most to them.
Callisto says "Surprise" and Herc ignores her, rushing over to check on his
family as if Callisto isn't there. Herc will only respond to her once she
tries provoking his anger. After that, Herc has three lines in this scene,
"What do you want," "And a whole one makes you immortal," and "Callisto,
impossible. Callisto’s dead." And then what's his expert, well-considered
assessment of Callisto? "You're insane." That's really productive. I'm sure
that will be of great help in changing her and getting her to cooperate enough
for them to interact. After that, they walk toward the labyrinth with Herc
looking straight ahead all the time, ignoring her just like Xena. He only
responds when she gets him annoyed and responds with something either
dismissive, patronizing, or insulting and clearly has no intention of saying
anything to try to change her. He just vents his anger on her. But actually,
I think Callisto eventually starts to make some impression on him. I think
Hercules actually did a little better than Xena did, but that's not saying much
because Xena did next to nothing positive and did a lot of unnecessary things.
One of Herc's self-righteous, judgmental statements--that Callisto is "trapped
in her hate"--Herc seems somewhat open to listening to Callisto respond to.
But it never lasts. Herc is soon back to trying to shut Callisto out with
statements like "Drop it! I wouldn’t expect someone like you to understand."
Callisto is practically begging to talk about things, almost seeming to follow
Herc around like a little lost puppy at times, but all Herc does is look down
his nose at and express his utmost contempt of her as if she's a lost cause, so
of course Callisto gets angry a lot. What is Herc's response to Callisto
confiding in him that her family was murdered like his was? A contemptuous
"You didn’t learn much from it, did you?" Later in the episode, he informs
Callisto that he plans to send her back to Tartarus after their journey is
through. This was after just barely managing to restrain himself from not
killing her right there and then. Not much hope after that. Is it any wonder
she resisted Herc trying to take her out of the room containing the Tree of
Life at the end?
But this is a Xena forum, so I'll get on with the next episode, "A Necessary
Evil." This is probably the episode that most comes to mind for most people.
But its no better here, IMO. After Callisto has been trapped in her hate some
more, Xena comes to use her out of necessity as a tool to stop Velasca.
Callisto begins with her usual verbose, open-ended introduction and Xena's only
reply is "Callisto, I didn't come here for this." Does she say why she *is*
there? No, she's so passive that Callisto has to attack her before Xena even
mentions the ambrosia she plans to lure Callisto along with. IMO, Xena has
decided from the beginning that she's just going to use Callisto. Callisto
lays into Gabrielle many times throughout the episode and Xena remains silent.
She seems to not want to do anything that could make Callisto change her mind
about helping them. Xena is clearly in a hurry to stop Velasca and doesn't
have time for anything else like talking to Callisto, even if she wanted to.
Now we get to the big evidence many people cite. Xena apologized in front of a
whole village for her crimes. Surely that should have an effect on Callisto if
she were receptive to change and reformable. Well, take a look at Callisto's
reaction during that scene. She was very moved. She seemed to be moved beyond
words. And there wasn't even any need for her to be because Xena was
apologizing because Callisto wouldn't help her otherwise. Xena was forced to
apologize! If you make someone say they're sorry, should you then forgive them
and think about changing your whole way of life when they say they're sorry?
And what does Xena say after her apology? She walks up to Callisto with a
harsh "Let's go" and walks away, ignoring any effect she might have had on
Callisto. She's not going to follow through on it or even check if there's
anything to follow through on. She just assumed that it meant nothing to
Callisto, that Callisto was beyond reach. I could really go on forever with
this, but just a few more obvious examples. In a later scene when they reach
the battleground chosen to fight Velasca, Callisto actually offers to give Xena
some of the ambrosia. She says "Ah-uh, and then it's you and me and the
ambrosia. I just had a marvelous idea. Why don't you and I both eat it? That
way, we could be fighting each other for eternity." As if thinking that Xena
enjoys fighting with her. That is not the mark of someone who wants to kill a
person's soul. And then there's the fact that Callisto turned on Xena to
negotiate with Velasca. Surely that must show that she hadn't changed, right?
She only did that to keep Xena safe, and maybe get rid of Gabrielle in the
process. But Xena anticipated this betrayal because she has no possibility in
her mind of Callisto doing anything at all good, so Xena saves the day and we
get to our next example: the campfire scene that night. The other biggie that
everyone cites. They usually neglect to mention that Callisto seems to speak
quite openly and honestly at first about not having any real meaningful
feelings and how much that hurts, along with the loss of her family. Now,
Callisto then asks Gabrielle a question about *her* pain, pain being the center
of Callisto's life. She asks straightfaced how long it took Perdicus to die.
And Gabrielle can't control her anger and humiliation enough to sit and answer
the question as Callisto had done when Gabrielle tried to pry into her deepest
feelings as if they were a topic of casual dinner conversation. Nope,
Gabrielle storms off in a rage, unable to continue the conversation and be open
and honest. And of course Callisto laughs. If she hadn't, she would have
appeared hurt by Gabrielle storming off. And there's no reason to be hurt by
someone who's so angry with you that they can't control themselves enough to
carry on a conversation with you. Who knows how Callisto might have reacted
had Gabrielle told Callisto honestly about how Perdicus' death hurt her. That
would have been something for them to have in common. Something for Callisto
to relate to so that they could have a dialogue. Now let's jump to the end of
the episode and the last nail in the coffin. Gabrielle may come around a bit
when she asks "Xena, do you think that, deep down, Callisto feels sorry for the
things that she's done?" Xena's response is a shocked "No!" It never occured
to her that Callisto could be sorry and capable of changing. Gabrielle just
seems interested in forgiving her so that she can move on now that Callisto is
dead, but Xena won't even go that far.
IMO, Callisto was always *very* willing to talk, especially to Xena, and Xena,
for the most part, tried to ignore her unless she had to actually physically
fight her. When did Callisto ever show an unwillingness to continue a
conversation? Sure, she said a lot of insulting, cruel things, which made
other people terminate the conversation (usually because they couldn't handle
it), but did she ever do so herself? When Xena brought Callisto in that first
time, she was leading her on her horse to the prison the whole time they were
talking. Thus, it was clear that Xena did not actually have any intention of
trying to change Callisto. Taking her to prison was a foregone conclusion. At
least, that's how Callisto would have seen it. Its possible that Xena didn't
want to let Callisto know that she was considering letting her go so that
Callisto wouldn't try to lie just to be let go, but that didn't do Callisto any
good. Helping Callisto was always out of the question in Xena's mind, IMO.
Xena just executed Callisto again in "Sacrifice II," still hoping it would keep
her from having to deal with her and the feelings she aroused again. Which I
find especially tragic because Callisto was also having trouble dealing with
her feelings of emptiness and pain, probably similar to what Xena was feeling
at Solan's death, only Callisto had just about given up on hatred and revenge
by then, while Xena was still stuck in the cycle. It was kind of full circle,
as Callisto described another time she was about to die.
-- Callistoee
Jason C. Leach <calli...@yahoo.com>
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: There is seldom the opportunity to stop someone from commiting a crime that you
: can see and be absolutely sure of. Like killing them just as they're about to
: stab an innocent person. That's the kind of killing that really feels
: justified and comfortable and we see all the time on television.
This is a large part of the point I was trying to make. You can't
always be there to prevent this, and allowing Callisto to attempt another
killing (or not) would most likely result in another innocent death. Glad
to hear another person understands.
: People are
: executed on the spot to prevent them from doing something that there is proof
: they're about to do. In reality, if that's the only time we severely punished
: people, society would almost surely have collapsed into anarchy by now. Most
: people, IMO, accept that to maintain civilization, we must punish people
: *after* they have committed crimes.
Very true.
: In punishing them, we are not saying that
: they can never change, that they're unreformable, but that the risk of them not
: changing is too great to take a chance on.
Well, I agree, reservedly. The system of justice in the US is
based on the idea that people can change, though the rehabilitation of the
prison system seems to be very poorly managed.
It's when someone proves themselves unchangable, by a record of
repeated violations of law, that the punishments get more severe. (Or in
the case of really heinous crimes that no society can tolerate) That's
what the whole "three strikes" system was about. It put an actual number
on how mnay chances you had to stay on the right side of the law.
Callisto was way past three strikes.
: If we took so many risks that had
: such a high probability of failure, we'd almost certainly lose everything,
: sooner or later. We'd be back in the dark ages. If some people are willing to
: take such risks for their belief systems--such as that its categorically wrong
: to punish people for things that have already been done--well, you can't change
: their beliefs. I don't believe this myself. I think its logical to think that
: the current justice system does save the greatest number of lives and that the
: greater good is the most important consideration, not just out of selflessness,
: but because each individual, statistically speaking, will benefit the most
: under such a system.
Exactly.
: However, I also think it would have been heroic for Xena to have tried to
: change Callisto, especially during the times that she had Callisto already
: restrained.
Here's the problem: What, exactly, should Xena (or anyone, it
doesn't HAVE to be Xena) have said that would work on Callisto, and WHY
would it have worked. Everyone who's said that Xena didn't try hard enough
has been asked this question and they've all evaded the issue.
I, personally, don't believe anything would have worked, at least,
not without working on Callisto _forever_, and in the meantime Callisto
could be planning her escape as we have seen her do many times in the
past.
So, if you can, I'd honestly like to hear what methods would have
worked and why, because I'm stumped.
: I don't want to get into a blow by blow account of every little
: thing Xena tried, but I see little alternative, as I keep seeing all these
: strong assertions with scant and misleadingly represented evidence that Calliso
: had so many people help her and had all these chances at least as much as Xena
: to change and is thus totally different than Xena. IMO there was very little
: indeed that Xena did, and even less was clearly intended for the purpose of
: trying to change Callisto. One thing no one seems to remember is that Xena
: tells Theodorus near the beginning to convey a message to Callisto: "Now
: remember to tell her this. She's right, I made her, and I'll be the one to
: destroy her."
Hey, c'mon, Callisto was _dangerous_. When someone like Callisto
is causing havoc and running loose, you don't go sending them messages
that say "C'mon in, we'll talk. No tricks, I just want to ease your pain."
and expect to have that work. Most likely you'll get sent back the head of
your messenger and a note saying "My pain will be eased with your death."
: Examples mentioned have included Xena apologizing. That's a
: start. That lays the foundation for help and makes it possible, but is not
: help itself. However, Xena only said this after Callisto had started talking
: to her and bringing up a lot of good points that made Xena look bad. Xena
: didn't even stop to look at Callisto when she apologized. She might as well
: have added the line "But my apology and any reaction of yours to it changes
: nothing. You're going to prison now."
Someone posted, verbatim, the transcript from that scene and
you've really misrepresented the actual situation, here.
: Then there's Xena offering to let
: Callisto go free with no strings attached. That's not helping her either.
: That's tantamount to an endorsement of her going on doing what she's been doing
: all along.
True.
: Then there was her talking to her once she had got her to prison.
: I hate to break it to some people who recall some sort of attempt there, but
: Xena stood with her back to Callisto the whole time except for one line of
: dialogue, the only thing she said the whole time while Callisto was imprisoned:
: "Don't worry, I won't let anything happen to you without a fair trial." This
: was in response to Callisto bringing up all kinds of interesting points and
: asking her questions that Xena completely ignored.
What other options were there? As you said, Xena could hardly let
Callisto go. She couldn't justify it to the enraged mob outside who had
all lost family and friends to Callisto and it would be a validation for
Callisto's behavior. And if Xena tried to talk to Callisto and actually
got through,got Callisto to reform her ways only to have her executed for
her crimes in a fair trial...or ripped apart by that mob...what would be
the point?
Put yourself in Xena's shoes, this was clearly an untenable
situation with regard to reforming Callisto.
: Then we get to Xena
: arriving in Callisto's camp after Callisto has captured Gabrielle. Again, Xena
: says nothing. Callisto starts a fight that she proclaims is just to see who is
: a best fighter, and Xena has no objection to that.
Of course Xena has no objection. Gabrielle (and Joxer) were being
threatened by Callisto. You don't negotiate with terrorists.
: Then we get to "Return of Callisto." Callisto says "I missed you, Xena."
: What's Xena's response? "You never wrote." She's makes a joke and says
: nothing more, as if the outcome is foregone conclusion and she's keeping
: herself amused.
This is called good television. Personally, just once I'd like to
see a hero show where the main character is a boy scout as opposed to a
smart-alec rogue (they sort of tried this with Due South, but they made
him a little too much of a boy scout and saddled him with a rogue partner,
so that doesn't count). But this is to keep people interested in Xena
because she can spout witty reparte.
: Again, that Callisto can't change and doesn't want to change.
: She just waits for Callisto to make a move so that she'll have an excuse to
: fight her. Callisto has to endanger an innocent to get Xena to do anything.
: By endangering the innocent, Callisto gets Xena at the point of her sword and
: could kill her right there, but has another long monologue again and spares her
: life. And what does Xena have to say about that? Absolutely nothing.
What's your point?
: of course, eventually escapes, and goes after Callisto (after Gabrielle yelling
: "Get her, Xena!" which probably means 'Kill her for me so I don't lose my blood
: innocence!') Next, Xena and Callisto fall into some Callisto. Xena has one
: line, once again only because Callisto asked her a question: "Always the
: optimist." And then that's it. Not even a "What would you do if I let you
: go?" this time. She watches immobile as Callisto begs in the most
: heartwrenching manner for her life I've ever seen without a word.
Still not seeing your point.
: Next comes "Intimate Stranger." Here there's some small debate over whether
: Xena letting Callisto die was an execution or not. I don't much care to argue
: which it was. The point is Xena again just stands around doing nothing.
: Callisto draws her into the underworld. Xena stands there indifferent as
: Callisto just walks around her, talking. After cajoling, Xena admits to
: murdering Callisto because she feels guilty about it. Once Callisto gets in
: Xena's body, Xena can't kill her or she'd be killing her own body, or else Xena
: probably would have done just that. The story is cleverly written to avoid us
: having to think about such things. What Xena does is manage to get to Callisto
: the same way Callisto got to her: guilt. So Xena *knows* that Callisto feels
: some guilt or else she wouldn't have been able to invade her dreams. Xena gets
: Callisto's mother to appear and make her feel even more guilty. It seems to
: work. Then she gets into another guilt trip with "How many of your victims had
: faces, Callisto?" yadda, yadda, yadda, and so Callisto remembers them, enabling
: them to appear and surround Callisto. Then Xena tells Callisto that she's
: through feeling guilty about Callisto. How nice for her! She tells Callisto
: that all the burden of her crimes is off on Callisto now. She might as well
: have added "Deal with it" in an insulting tone. But we can't have heros saying
: things like that, now can we? So Xena settles for "You can’t shut it out. It’s
: like a crashing wave. Once it starts, there’s no stopping it." Xena just
: managed to shut out her feelings of guilt completely, but for Callisto there's
: no stopping it. And then Arleia, Callisto's mother, delivers the final blow,
: telling her "you have to face your crimes" and then Callisto is thrown into a
: wall and disappears and we're all supposed to feel good about goodness
: triumphing.
Well, sure. Look, the responsibility for Callisto's actions falls
solely on Callisto herself. I'm sure Xena caused many others just as much
pain as she did Callisto when Xena was a warlord. But only one of them
went on a killing spree to tarnish Xena's name, only one of them when
totally moon-bats-crazy like Callisto. What happened to Callisto might
have been Xena's fault (debatable), but what Callisto did about it was her
own fault.
: Where did Callisto go? She must have gone to Tartarus cuz that's
: where she is when we next see her in "Surprise."
Actually, we _know_ she went to Tartarus because that's where Xena
ended up when she hit that rock at the beginning of the episode.
: Yeah, she's really gonna face
: her crimes in an environment of hellish torture with the only people to talk to
: being people as bad as or worse than her. And how exactly is it that anyone
: would know if she suddenly faced her crimes. Would a Hades manager cry "Red
: alert! Callisto just faced her crimes. Bring in some good people to talk with
: her so that she become a good person and be transferred to the Elysian Fields."
: Somehow I got the impression that Tartarus was for those who were
: fundamentally evil and beyond hope and they would be suffering for eternity.
When a person dies, they are judged and then sent one place or the
other. But to be sent to the Elysian Fields you have to have been on the
"good" side in life, before death. This much is said in the episode with
Marcus and Sisyphus, when no one could die. (Sorry, don't remember the
episode name)
Callisto wasn't sent to Tartarus to face her crimes, she's sent
there to be punished for them.
Why did Xena allow Callisto to be sent there? Containment. Like
you said, and I've said, the risks in allowing her to live are too great.
: But this is a Xena forum, so I'll get on with the next episode, "A Necessary
: Evil." This is probably the episode that most comes to mind for most people.
: But its no better here, IMO. After Callisto has been trapped in her hate some
: more, Xena comes to use her out of necessity as a tool to stop Velasca.
: Callisto begins with her usual verbose, open-ended introduction and Xena's only
: reply is "Callisto, I didn't come here for this." Does she say why she *is*
: there? No, she's so passive that Callisto has to attack her before Xena even
: mentions the ambrosia she plans to lure Callisto along with.
That's not how I read that scene at all. Callisto attacked Xena
before she could make a proposal.
: IMO, Xena has
: decided from the beginning that she's just going to use Callisto.
Xena recognizes the danger Callisto represents and deals with her
accordingly.
But still, the offer she gives is more of a mutual benefit sort of
thing. I'll give you something you wnat if you do something I want.
Ambrosia for help with Velasca.
: Callisto
: lays into Gabrielle many times throughout the episode and Xena remains silent.
Generally, it seemed Xena wasn't present for those. And Gabby
didn't bring them up.
: She seems to not want to do anything that could make Callisto change her mind
: about helping them. Xena is clearly in a hurry to stop Velasca and doesn't
: have time for anything else like talking to Callisto, even if she wanted to.
: Now we get to the big evidence many people cite. Xena apologized in front of a
: whole village for her crimes. Surely that should have an effect on Callisto if
: she were receptive to change and reformable. Well, take a look at Callisto's
: reaction during that scene. She was very moved. She seemed to be moved beyond
: words.
That's, again, not how I read that scene. Callisto didn't really
seem to care, as far as I saw. If anything, it made things worse for
Callisto. Everyone in the village seemed totally indifferent (I think
Callisto expected them to tear Xena apart in outrage for what was done to
Callisto and Cirra), and it certainly had no real effect on Callisto's
demeanor. It was a hollow victory for Callisto and did nothing for her
pain. She was disappointed, to say the least.
That's how I read that scene.
: And there wasn't even any need for her to be because Xena was
: apologizing because Callisto wouldn't help her otherwise. Xena was forced to
: apologize! If you make someone say they're sorry, should you then forgive them
: and think about changing your whole way of life when they say they're sorry?
And yet, the apology was given in completely sincere tones; Xena
WAS genuinely sorry that it had ever happened, she'd expressed as much in
previous episodes.
Maybe someone saying that they're sorry and remorseful isn't
enough, but it's a start. Xena'd tried to apologize before to Callisto and
got brick-walled. THIS time, Callisto wanted to hear it, was willing to
listen. I don't think Xena felt forced to do it, I think she found it a
good opportunity, if a little humiliating.
: And what does Xena say after her apology? She walks up to Callisto with a
: harsh "Let's go" and walks away, ignoring any effect she might have had on
: Callisto. She's not going to follow through on it or even check if there's
: anything to follow through on. She just assumed that it meant nothing to
: Callisto, that Callisto was beyond reach.
Can you blame her? It certainly SEEMED to have no effect on
Callisto, besides disappointment.
: I could really go on forever with
: this, but just a few more obvious examples. In a later scene when they reach
: the battleground chosen to fight Velasca, Callisto actually offers to give Xena
: some of the ambrosia. She says "Ah-uh, and then it's you and me and the
: ambrosia. I just had a marvelous idea. Why don't you and I both eat it? That
: way, we could be fighting each other for eternity." As if thinking that Xena
: enjoys fighting with her. That is not the mark of someone who wants to kill a
: person's soul.
It IS the mark of someone a bit loopy. Who wants a perpetual deul
with the person you hate the most? Callisto was a wingnut by then, no
doubt.
: And then there's the fact that Callisto turned on Xena to
: negotiate with Velasca. Surely that must show that she hadn't changed, right?
: She only did that to keep Xena safe, and maybe get rid of Gabrielle in the
: process. But Xena anticipated this betrayal because she has no possibility in
: her mind of Callisto doing anything at all good, so Xena saves the day and we
: get to our next example:
Xena made a guess about Callisto's methods based on past
experience and what she knew of her character...and was right. That should
tell us something.
: the campfire scene that night. The other biggie that
: everyone cites. They usually neglect to mention that Callisto seems to speak
: quite openly and honestly at first about not having any real meaningful
: feelings and how much that hurts, along with the loss of her family.
That's merely the set up for what Callisto considered the
punchline. Besides, someone not feeling anything like that is a sociopath.
: Now,
: Callisto then asks Gabrielle a question about *her* pain, pain being the center
: of Callisto's life. She asks straightfaced how long it took Perdicus to die.
She asks this out of pure psychotic glee, the intention was to
HURT Gabrielle, not to have an open dialogue.
: And Gabrielle can't control her anger and humiliation enough to sit and answer
: the question as Callisto had done when Gabrielle tried to pry into her deepest
: feelings as if they were a topic of casual dinner conversation.
If she had wanted to pry into Gabby's feelings, she would have
asked how Gabby had felt when Perdicus had died or what his loss had done
to Gabby. She would NOT have asked how long it took Perdie to die, as if
she wanted to savor each agonizing second.
: Nope,
: Gabrielle storms off in a rage, unable to continue the conversation and be open
: and honest. And of course Callisto laughs. If she hadn't, she would have
: appeared hurt by Gabrielle storming off.
You HAVE to be kidding. You're reading so much into this, and it
appears to stem from some deep seated preconception that Callisto was
anything other than deliberately hurtful.
: And there's no reason to be hurt by
: someone who's so angry with you that they can't control themselves enough to
: carry on a conversation with you.
Sure there is. It hurts because it hurts, and they're making it
worse.
: Who knows how Callisto might have reacted
: had Gabrielle told Callisto honestly about how Perdicus' death hurt her.
Callisto would have done what Callisto always does: revel in it.
: That
: would have been something for them to have in common. Something for Callisto
: to relate to so that they could have a dialogue.
If Callisto wanted a dialogue, she should have asked about Gabby's
pain, not caused her more. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
: Now let's jump to the end of
: the episode and the last nail in the coffin. Gabrielle may come around a bit
: when she asks "Xena, do you think that, deep down, Callisto feels sorry for the
: things that she's done?" Xena's response is a shocked "No!" It never occured
: to her that Callisto could be sorry and capable of changing. Gabrielle just
: seems interested in forgiving her so that she can move on now that Callisto is
: dead, but Xena won't even go that far.
Look, the reason they have Alcoholics Anonymous meetings run by
alcoholics is becuase you have to have been there to be able to cure
others and help them deal with it all. You have to have that
understanding. Xena has been in Callisto's position, she knows how it
feels and the kinds of reactions that show a willingness to change. There
was nobody in a better position to know than Xena.
Callisto was obviously beyond help in Xena's experience. With that
in mind, I'd yield to Xena's expert opinion rather than go with Gabby's
idealism.
: IMO, Callisto was always *very* willing to talk, especially to Xena, and Xena,
: for the most part, tried to ignore her unless she had to actually physically
: fight her.
Callisto was never willing to talk in such a way that it would be
worth talking back. Callisto was an antagonist, not someone crying out for
help.
: When did Callisto ever show an unwillingness to continue a
: conversation? Sure, she said a lot of insulting, cruel things, which made
: other people terminate the conversation (usually because they couldn't handle
: it), but did she ever do so herself?
Callisto takes great delight in the pain she causes others, you
have only to look at her girlishly gleeful facce when she does it to know
that. You seem to be under the impression that Callisto was talking to try
and work out her pain. It looks more like she was trying to cause pain to
others.
: When Xena brought Callisto in that first
: time, she was leading her on her horse to the prison the whole time they were
: talking. Thus, it was clear that Xena did not actually have any intention of
: trying to change Callisto. Taking her to prison was a foregone conclusion. At
: least, that's how Callisto would have seen it. Its possible that Xena didn't
: want to let Callisto know that she was considering letting her go so that
: Callisto wouldn't try to lie just to be let go, but that didn't do Callisto any
: good. Helping Callisto was always out of the question in Xena's mind, IMO.
: Xena just executed Callisto again in "Sacrifice II," still hoping it would keep
: her from having to deal with her and the feelings she aroused again. Which I
: find especially tragic because Callisto was also having trouble dealing with
: her feelings of emptiness and pain, probably similar to what Xena was feeling
: at Solan's death, only Callisto had just about given up on hatred and revenge
: by then, while Xena was still stuck in the cycle. It was kind of full circle,
: as Callisto described another time she was about to die.
Callisto was WAY out of chances, there is nothing that could
excuse all the atrocities she committed. Personally, I don't care how much
pain someone is in or what their past is like, if they express this pain
in the form of violence then they are just as bad if not worse than those
who caused them such pain. And if the attempt is made, and it was, to try
and talk them down and they are unreceptive, they deserve _nothing_.
To change, one first has to be willing to change. Callisto wasn't
willing.
lazarus
>
> >> Its really not even about opinion. Tarkd (and others) tell them all the
> >facts,
> >> in real life and in the show, yet they refuse to understand factual
> >> information.
> >
> >Well, if opinions are factual information I guess pigs can fly.
>
> Only one thing is our opinion: that Xena did NOT murder Callisto, and that
> Callisto deserved to die.
I honestly don't even understand what you are argueing...what are you
argueing?
> What we use to back up our opinion is TOTALLY FACTUAL
> AND OBVIOUS.
Speak for yourself...you and Tarkd are not 1 entity. There were plenty
of his opinions I juggled with in the arguement with Tarkd, and there
were plenty of my opinions he juggled with...it's the nature of
argueing, opinions often get in the way.
> They're FACTS in real-life situations, they're FACTS from episodes
> of the show.
I've used facts to counter his arguements, and he has done the same for
me. I don't see your point.
> YOU, you just obviously don't pay any attention to them.
Actually, don't mean to rain on your parade, but, I own every single
episode on tape, and have seen them plenty of times, and I'm pretty
observative.
> BD
Well, I don't see why you call my posts dumb, or whatever...My posts are
just as dumb as yours or Tarkd's. A persons arguement might seem "dumb"
when your on the other end of the arguement, but when your not it seems
perfectly logical, you seem to be either afflicted with "anybody who
disagrees with me is dumb" syndrome, or "there is no way I can ever be
wrong" syndrome. I don't know, I have no problems with you, I don't
even think I ever insulted you, why insult me? What will that do for
your arguement? Proove that your good at insulting people?
-Lazarus-
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> Only one thing is our opinion: that Xena did NOT murder Callisto, and that
:> Callisto deserved to die.
: I honestly don't even understand what you are argueing...what are you
: argueing?
What's being said here, laz, is that the only part of our argument
which is opinion is that Xena didn't murder Callisto. Everything else we
say is fact, fact that can be supported by specific examples that you can
check by watchign the show or cracking a book on history or law.
That's LITERALLY what's being said. If you're looking for deeper
meaning in that sentence...don't.
:> What we use to back up our opinion is TOTALLY FACTUAL
:> AND OBVIOUS.
: Speak for yourself...you and Tarkd are not 1 entity.
No, we are 2. Which out numbers you. And there's more of us out
here. In the face of a majority, perhaps yielding would be a wise course
of action. ;)
: There were plenty
: of his opinions I juggled with in the arguement with Tarkd, and there
: were plenty of my opinions he juggled with...it's the nature of
: argueing, opinions often get in the way.
Not true. Opinions are often the most important part of an
argument...when they can be backed up by fact. You back up your opinions
with more opinions and that doesn't wash. I back up my opinions with facts
from the show, facts from law, historical precedent, etc. That's why,
regardless of whether you believe them or not, my arguments carry more
weight than yours.
:> They're FACTS in real-life situations, they're FACTS from episodes
:> of the show.
: I've used facts to counter his arguements, and he has done the same for
: me. I don't see your point.
You've done almost nothing of the kind. You use your _beliefs_ to
counter my arguments, which will never sway anyone who doesn't share your
beliefs.
:> YOU, you just obviously don't pay any attention to them.
: Actually, don't mean to rain on your parade, but, I own every single
: episode on tape, and have seen them plenty of times, and I'm pretty
: observative.
Apparantly not, since the word you are searching for is
"observant".
: Well, I don't see why you call my posts dumb, or whatever...My posts are
: just as dumb as yours or Tarkd's. A persons arguement might seem "dumb"
: when your on the other end of the arguement, but when your not it seems
: perfectly logical, you seem to be either afflicted with "anybody who
: disagrees with me is dumb" syndrome, or "there is no way I can ever be
: wrong" syndrome. I don't know, I have no problems with you, I don't
: even think I ever insulted you, why insult me? What will that do for
: your arguement? Proove that your good at insulting people?
Your posts being seen as dumb has a lot more to do with their
content, the poor spelling and grammar, the inability to argue in a
logical fashion, and the general inability to see someone else's point
without distorting it to fit your own needs than it has to do with the
point you are trying to get across, though I still maintain that your
point is wishful thinking at its worst.
BDangelico
>>
>> >> Its really not even about opinion. Tarkd (and others) tell them all the
>> >facts,
>> >> in real life and in the show, yet they refuse to understand factual
>> >> information.
>> >
>> >Well, if opinions are factual information I guess pigs can fly.
>>
>> Callisto deserved to die.
>
>I honestly don't even understand what you are argueing...what are you
>argueing?
Tsk tsk.. All this time and you STILL don't understand what I'm saying when I
lay it right out for you?
>
>> What we use to back up our opinion is TOTALLY FACTUAL
>> AND OBVIOUS.
>
>Speak for yourself...you and Tarkd are not 1 entity. There were plenty
>of his opinions I juggled with in the arguement with Tarkd, and there
>were plenty of my opinions he juggled with...it's the nature of
>argueing, opinions often get in the way.
You seem to be the only one with several opinions on the argument. YOU back up
your
opinons with what you THINK is right and believe in, but WE back up our one
main opinion with actual FACTS. Facts are facts. And yet, you still disreguard
the numerous FACTS we put right in your face.
>
>> They're FACTS in real-life situations, they're FACTS from episodes
>> of the show.
>
>I've used facts to counter his arguements, and he has done the same for
>me. I don't see your point.
Not really. Your arguement, and I've read it ALL, is pretty much all opinion
and what you think is right. We tell you actual real facts that can't be
ignored, and yet, YOU DO ignore them...
>
>> YOU, you just obviously don't pay any attention to them.
>
>Actually, don't mean to rain on your parade, but, I own every single
>episode on tape, and have seen them plenty of times, and I'm pretty
>observative.
>
>> BD
>
>Well, I don't see why you call my posts dumb, or whatever...My posts are
>just as dumb as yours or Tarkd's. A persons arguement might seem "dumb"
>when your on the other end of the arguement, but when your not it seems
>perfectly logical, you seem to be either afflicted with "anybody who
>disagrees with me is dumb" syndrome, or "there is no way I can ever be
>wrong" syndrome. I don't know, I have no problems with you, I don't
>even think I ever insulted you, why insult me? What will that do for
>your arguement? Proove that your good at insulting people?
>
>-Lazarus-
If anything, the only reason I said what I said is because you sooo strongly
disagree with our FACTS. That's what annoys me. I mean, we tell you facts, then
you counter with opinion. If I did the same thing, then call me an idiot too,
but I don't. I wouldn't say anything to back up myself UNLESS it was a fact,
which I do.
BD
Gatsby -- aka Dave H.
> Callisto has DEMONSTRATED MANY TIMES that attempts to change her wouldn't
> work. She's out of chances to change, it's too late.
them. Not willing to change six times is not "many times." Xena surely in
her 10 years of being a warlord demonstrated more than 6 times that she
didn't want and couldn't change. Again, give ppl the same chances you were
given. If Xena had 6 chances, and about 2 years to change, which was how
long Callisto had and how many Callisto had, then it would be reasonable to
impose the same upon Callisto, but since Xena had 10 years worth of chances,
its not.
>And do
> you not modify your behavior accordingly?
You can not predict what people will do. If Callisto lived for several more
episodes, assuming she acts like a real peron, she would have undoubtedly
done something that none of us could expect. People's lives are not written
down in stone, not predetermined; and if they are, no one knows how they are
predetermined, so you can't say it's obvious. Of course, if Callisto's life
was predetermined, it would be pointless to argue this argument and
pointless 2 condemn her b/c she couldn't help it, but then again, we
wouldn't have a choice, b/c our actions would be predetermined. Destiny is
really a suck-ass concept, isn't it? Don't know about u, but I wouldn't
want 2 live if I had a destiny, and if everything I did was predetermined --
that's not a life to be valued.
Gatsby -- aka Dave H.
FACTUAL
> AND OBVIOUS.They're FACTS in real-life situations, they're FACTS from
episodes
> of the show. YOU, you just obviously don't pay any attention to them.
>
> BD
Um, it was MURDER. If a similar thing went to court in the US, it would be
considered murder. Killing someone is only justifiable when there is
perceived imminent danger. As for your assertion that Callisto deserved it,
there is a little bit of good in her(Yin-Yang). Look at it this way:
Callisto's represented by an army of men, numbering 100. 99 of them are
murderer's, rapists, etc, and one of them is Jesus Christ, or Socrates, or
some noble person who was good. You have a choice: you can kill them all,
or none of them. Would you actually kill that one good person so you could
kill the other 99 evil ones?
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: Um, it was MURDER. If a similar thing went to court in the US, it would be
: considered murder.
Thing is, this is the Xenaverse we're talking about, not the US.
: Killing someone is only justifiable when there is
: perceived imminent danger.
And there was that from Callisto. She may not have been about to
attack, but her reputation and god-status made her that dangerous.
: As for your assertion that Callisto deserved it,
: there is a little bit of good in her(Yin-Yang).
What signs of this are there? When has Callisto ever shown
anything that even remotely resembled compassion or some other "Light
Side" enotion, hmm?
: Look at it this way:
: Callisto's represented by an army of men, numbering 100. 99 of them are
: murderer's, rapists, etc, and one of them is Jesus Christ, or Socrates, or
: some noble person who was good. You have a choice: you can kill them all,
: or none of them. Would you actually kill that one good person so you could
: kill the other 99 evil ones?
Yes. Consider this: How many people are going to get killed if
those 100 people are left alive? Assume about ten apiece for the 99 "evil
ones", though that's probably a conservative estimate considering how long
a bandit's career _could_ be. So that 990 dead already.
Now consider how many people would die if, using your example,
Christ were allowed to live. Well, there's Christ himself, who dies on the
cross. There's all those Xtians tossed to the lions by the Romans. There's
the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the abortion doctors killed by
"religious right" snipers, etc... All because this "noble" character of
yours has to go and create a splinter religion that grew out of control.
_Countless_ people dead, all 'cuz of this one guy.
Now, if we were to execute those 100, we're guaranteed to save at
least 990 people, which is good math in my book. Add in the potential dead
from your "noble" meddler, and 100 lives to save all those others starts
to look like a bargain.
Of course, we could save another 100 lives on top of that if 99 of
them weren't evil to begin with.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> Callisto has DEMONSTRATED MANY TIMES that attempts to change her wouldn't
:> work. She's out of chances to change, it's too late.
: Um, there have been what, 6 episodes between XWP and HLJ w/ Callisto in
: them. Not willing to change six times is not "many times."
She was given more than one chance per episode, of course. I'm not
sure if it's my or your intelligence that's being insulted with your silly
statement.
:>And do
:> you not modify your behavior accordingly?
: You can not predict what people will do. If Callisto lived for several more
: episodes, assuming she acts like a real peron, she would have undoubtedly
: done something that none of us could expect.
But, like you say, she's never acted like a Real Person(tm), which
is what makes her so dangerous. She's a loose cannon with too much power
in her hands and she has to be neutralized.
: People's lives are not written
: down in stone, not predetermined; and if they are, no one knows how they are
: predetermined, so you can't say it's obvious. Of course, if Callisto's life
: was predetermined, it would be pointless to argue this argument and
: pointless 2 condemn her b/c she couldn't help it, but then again, we
: wouldn't have a choice, b/c our actions would be predetermined.
Doing evil because it isn't your fault is still evil.
If Callisto's life was predetermined then so was her death.
But I never said her actions were predetermined. I said that her
actions generally fell into a certain pattern, a pattern of violence and
lack of respect for human life. That pattern had shown no signs of being
broken, so one can more or less assume that it hasd't been.
What part of that don't you understand? Don't tell me yet which
parts you don't agree with, which part don't you GET? Because none of your
arguments shows that his concept has sunk in yet. You can't refute
something you don't understand.
Once you understand, you can disagree all you like because then
your arguments will actually address the problem given to you.
: Destiny is
: really a suck-ass concept, isn't it? Don't know about u, but I wouldn't
: want 2 live if I had a destiny, and if everything I did was predetermined --
: that's not a life to be valued.
If one had a destiny that could not be avoided, if there were no
free will, then this conversation most likely couldn't take place. And
even if it DID take place, _realizing_ that your destiny was predetermined
seems rather impossible...unless there is some un-seen author who writes
that revelation into our characters.
Oh, BTW, if yer not going to respond to the whole post, _snip_ fer
crying out loud! Save a little bandwidth and save someone else the
trouble.
BDangelico
>> Callisto deserved to die. What we use to back up our opinion is TOTALLY
>FACTUAL
>> AND OBVIOUS.They're FACTS in real-life situations, they're FACTS from
>episodes
>> of the show. YOU, you just obviously don't pay any attention to them.
>>
>> BD
>considered murder.<<
If you THINK its murder, thats STILL YOUR OPINION, sorry. And you really
shouldn't compare it to present-day US, because, well, how similar is Xena's
world to our own? How similar is ANYTHING, not just the court system? Think
about it...
<<Killing someone is only justifiable when there is
>perceived imminent danger.<<
And yet, both in our world and in Xena's, people ARE executed. PEOPLE make the
decision to execute other people. Xena IS a person...
<As for your assertion that Callisto deserved it,
>there is a little bit of good in her(Yin-Yang). Look at it this way:
>Callisto's represented by an army of men, numbering 100. 99 of them are
>murderer's, rapists, etc, and one of them is Jesus Christ, or Socrates, or
>some noble person who was good. You have a choice: you can kill them all,
>or none of them. Would you actually kill that one good person so you could
>kill the other 99 evil ones?
>
If killin' aint necessary, NONE have to die. However, if one of those 99 people
is an unstable GOD with a shady past of senseless murdering of women, children
and men, and has the potential to kill in masses at any moment she chooses,
THEN killing miiiight juuuuust be inevitable....sorry, that's my view on the
situation...
BD
BDangelico
>> Callisto has DEMONSTRATED MANY TIMES that attempts to change her wouldn't
>> work. She's out of chances to change, it's too late.
>Um, there have been what, 6 episodes between XWP and HLJ w/ Callisto in
>them. Not willing to change six times is not "many times." Xena surely in
>her 10 years of being a warlord demonstrated more than 6 times that she
>didn't want and couldn't change. Again, give ppl the same chances you were
>given. If Xena had 6 chances, and about 2 years to change, which was how
>long Callisto had and how many Callisto had, then it would be reasonable to
>impose the same upon Callisto, but since Xena had 10 years worth of chances,
>its not.
>
ACTUALLY, where's your proof that Xena ever had the chances to change? Just
because she had 10 years doesn't mean anything. People (like Herc) have to help
her see that it's only right to change. If anything, other people in her past
just feared her and, I'd imagine, she'd like to see people cower before her.
Just a guess, BUT an EDUCATED guess still...
BD
calli...@iname.com
>> However, I also think it would have been heroic for Xena
>> to have tried to change Callisto, especially during the
>> times that she had Callisto already restrained.
>
> Here's the problem: What, exactly, should Xena (or
> anyone, it doesn't HAVE to be Xena) have said that would
> work on Callisto, and WHY would it have worked. Everyone
> who's said that Xena didn't try hard enough has been
> asked this question and they've all evaded the issue.
Actually, I think merely talking to her might have gone a long way. I'm no
psychologist, nor is Xena, so that's probably about all she can do--try to
talk to Callisto and talk about things as they come up in the course of a
conversation. There would be no guaranteed prescribed program of success.
Xena would just have to deal with things as they come up through talking.
And if talking didn't work, she probably would end up eventually having to
kill her. What I can and will do is describe things Xena did wrong.
Instances where there were things she could've said and done. The thing
that stands out in my mind is that Xena seemed always unwilling to talk with
Callisto, whereas Callisto was always all too willing to talk. Xena almost
never questioned anything Callisto said, which is almost tacit approval, or
so it could seem to Callisto. Callisto, at least at first, says that there
was some respect mixed up in her hatred for Xena. Xena could use that.
Callisto seems somewhat interested in bringing Xena back to her darkside as
well. She seems to love playing mind games and manipulating people. All
Xena has to do is be up to that challenge when she sits down and talks with
her. She can let Callisto have her say and then try to explain the problems
she sees in Callisto's reasoning. She can also try to describe to Callisto
just how *she* changed, in the hope that that would inspire Callisto. You
were right, I somewhat neglected the scene in "Callisto" where Xena leads
Callisto to prison on horseback. Well, there's plenty more I can say about
it. I'll use this as an example to go through things Xena *could* have
done. The scene begins with Callisto trying to get Argo to obey her.
XENA: Argo won't obey you, and if you don't stop kicking her, I'll break
your ankles.
So its implied that they haven't been talking up to this point. Xena is
only saying something to stop Callisto from annoying Argo. Xena's taking
her to prison and that's that.
CALLISTO: Oh, the good Xena. What happened to you? One day you just decided
to fight for justice?
Callisto mocks her to get her to respond. And then comes a prime
opportunity. Callisto asks Xena point blank what made Xena change. She's
completely open to Xena explaining herself.
XENA: Something like that.
This is Xena's sum response. "Something like that." I wonder if I even
need to say anything further. By this, not only does Xena trivialize what
she stands for now, as if she has no conviction in it, she is telling
Callisto that she not worth talking to. That Callisto is incapable of
understanding the message. Xena has already given up. Xena is so convinced
that, while she had changed, Callisto couldn't, that she's not even going to
try. But Callisto goes on, so Xena has to keep responding.
CALLISTO: And all the shattered people you left behind were now supposed to
cheer you, is that it?
XENA: No.
And then there's a long pause. The way Xena says this is astonishing
because its like its ok for other people to cheer her, but she doesn't
expect her victims to. Well, why not? If she does something that deserves
cheering, everyone should cheer. Its not for Xena to decide what's
cheerworthy or not, of course, but there's a definite implication that Xena
is not so certain of herself. But does she go with this? Does she question
or explore the matter? No, she doesn't, so it seems like Xena has realized
her wrongdoing and is just trying to get away from it by later considering
letting Callisto go. Its no wonder IMO that Callisto is so derisive of
Xena's professed goodness.
XENA: What happened to you was terrible. It was my fault and I'm sorry.
Xena ducks out of continuing the discussion of the subject by merely
apologizing for something else. As if she can just say that and that should
make it all better, and if it doesn't, well, hey, she can say she tried.
IIRC Xena didn't even look at Callisto when she apologized. It sounded to
me for all the world like she was just reciting something by rote and not
expecting it to make a bit of difference. She had failed before she had
even begun. So of course Callisto doesn't think much of an apology like
that and says:
CALLISTO: Oh, well! That makes all the difference. And now, we can be the
best of friends. (spits on Xena's head) That's what I think of your apology.
That's what I thought of Xena's apology too! That had to be the worst
apology in the history of apologies. Xena didn't seem to even care to see
how Callisto reacted to her apology, as if it was something she was only
doing for herself to make *her* feel better. That is the whole problem.
Callisto can't see anything to this 'goodness' business and seems to
conclude Xena has just become cowardly. She can't even bring herself to
face Callisto. *Callisto* gives *Xena* so many chances. But Xena says
nothing again. As if an apology was all she could do. How sorry can she
really seem if all she's willing to do is apologize on the way to taking
Callisto to prison? She might as well have said "Hopefully you'll feel
better in prison knowing that the person who murdered your family is sorry
about it. I know I feel better." This time the plot excuses her from it
because Gabrielle comes rushing up soon afterward to inform her that Melas
has gone crazy and is organizing a lynch mob.
CALLISTO: Well, I'm not afraid to die, if that's what you're worried about.
What about you, Xena? How will you feel to see your creation executed
without a fair trial, hmm?
Callisto is asking Xena how she would feel if she were executed. Does Xena
say that that would be wrong or that she's even considering that that might
be wrong? Anything to indicate that its not just that that might make her
feel some unpleasant guilt? Nope. But maybe we can forgive Xena again
because Gabrielle butts in with:
GABRIELLE: Don't listen to her, Xena. You can't torture yourself over what
she's become.
So Gabrielle considers Melas organizing a lynch mob as "crazy," yet Callisto
shouldn't be listened to when she implies not thinking that its fair? But
more importantly, this is beside the point. Its not that Xena should
torture herself or feel terrible so much as that she should *do* something.
Help Callisto. She can do that without feeling terrible inside. She should
do it because its the right thing to do. Washing her hands of guilt over
creating Callisto is not the same as absolving herself of responsibility to
try to help someone, something that's she in unique position to do here
because Callisto will listen to her, and probably only her.
CALLISTO: No! No. No, of course not. No, it's not her fault at all that I
dream every night of my mother's screams coming from my burning home! You
tell me Xena, do you sleep well at night?!
XENA: No, I don't.
Here we go again. Xena won't say *why* she doesn't sleep well at night.
Leaving Callisto to conclude that Xena just feels "tortured" as Gabrielle
describes. That could just seem like cowardice. Xena is not asserting that
she doesn't sleep well because no matter how much she tries to change, the
pain she has caused still hurts her to this very day. So it could seem that
Xena feels still unsure whether she's doing the right thing or not. How can
Callisto come to believe in such a code as the one Xena professes to believe
in when Xena doesn't even seem to believe in it herself?
CALLISTO: Good. Well I can take whatever it is you think I have coming to
me. But you tell me this, Xena, have you ever been tried for all of the
things you have done? Have you ever been handed over to a mob that wanted
your blood?
XENA: What would you do if I let you go?
What is to indicate to Callisto that Xena isn't just motivated by self-
preservation? Xena might as well have said "If I let you go, will you
promise not to try to hurt me or my reputation anymore?" For all
appearances, Xena just seems to be a coward. She can't deal with Callisto
directly, nor can she deal with the thought of Callisto being executed.
Might cause her to have a few extra bad nights of sleep. And then Xena
later supports this interpretation by being her usual silent self when
Callisto laughs at the ridiculousness of Xena's offer. But first she talks
about Callisto as if she's not there in a whispered aside with Gabrielle.
GABRIELLE: What are you doing?
XENA: I changed, so can she.
GABRIELLE: No, her heart has been eaten away by hatred.
Well, with an evaluation like this from Gabrielle, how can Xena do anything
else? She just follows Gabrielle's judgment all the time, it seems.
Gabrielle shocks me even more than Xena with this remark. Gabrielle, who
has such faith in humanity. Funny how Xena's heart got uneaten away with
hatred, and yet there's no hope for Callisto and Gabrielle is so convinced
of this that she gets angry at Xena even considering it.
Finally, Callisto has a nice speech that tells Xena that she's not going to
let her off the hook so easily, that she won't change if Xena just lets her
go. Xena has made a mockery of her own ideals by considering letting
Callisto go without any indication whatsoever that Callisto would change.
Callisto viciously drives this home by telling Xena to take her to the mob
because that would be no better in terms of 'rightness' than letting
Callisto go. So what does Xena do after all this? She says nothing to
refute any of Callisto's points and takes Callisto to the mob. Xena has the
arrogant notion, no doubt, that she'll be able to defend Callisto from them
and keep her in a prison, but it fails, of course, and the only reason
Callisto isn't executed by the mob is because she's able to defend herself
and escape.
> I, personally, don't believe anything would have worked,
> at least, not without working on Callisto _forever_, and
> in the meantime Callisto could be planning her escape as
> we have seen her do many times in the past.
That's always a risk with prisons. You'd have to have the death penalty for
every crime. While you have to minimize risks, there comes a point where it
becomes unreasonable.
>> I don't want to get into a blow by blow account of every
>> little thing Xena tried, but I see little alternative,
>> as I keep seeing all these strong assertions with scant
>> and misleadingly represented evidence that Calliso had
>> so many people help her and had all these chances at
>> least as much as Xena to change and is thus totally
>> different than Xena. IMO there was very little indeed
>> that Xena did, and even less was clearly intended for
>> the purpose of trying to change Callisto. One thing no
>> one seems to remember is that Xena tells Theodorus near
>> the beginning to convey a message to Callisto: "Now
>> remember to tell her this. She's right, I made her, and
>> I'll be the one to destroy her."
>
> Hey, c'mon, Callisto was _dangerous_. When someone like
> Callisto is causing havoc and running loose, you don't go
> sending them messages that say "C'mon in, we'll talk. No
> tricks, I just want to ease your pain." and expect to
> have that work. Most likely you'll get sent back the head
> of your messenger and a note saying "My pain will be
> eased with your death."
My point is, why did Xena have to send a message at all? To get Callisto
angry and force a showdown as soon as possible? That's what it seems like
to me. If, once Xena had gotten Callisto's attention, she tried to work
with her, that would contradict that, but Xena didn't. That means Xena
never had any intention of trying to help Callisto, right from the very
first time they met.
>> Then there was her talking to her once she had got her
>> to prison. I hate to break it to some people who recall
>> some sort of attempt there, but Xena stood with her back
>> to Callisto the whole time except for one line of
>> dialogue, the only thing she said the whole time while
>> Callisto was imprisoned: "Don't worry, I won't let
>> anything happen to you without a fair trial." This was
>> in response to Callisto bringing up all kinds of
>> interesting points and asking her questions that Xena
>> completely ignored.
>
> What other options were there? As you said, Xena could
> hardly let Callisto go. She couldn't justify it to the
> enraged mob outside who had all lost family and friends
> to Callisto and it would be a validation for Callisto's
> behavior. And if Xena tried to talk to Callisto and
> actually got through,got Callisto to reform her ways only
> to have her executed for her crimes in a fair trial...or
> ripped apart by that mob...what would be the point?
So now we've gone to saying that trying to change Callisto here would have
been pointless anyway. Ok, just keep in mind that once again Xena did not
try to change her here. Its a separate argument now as to what the point
would have been if she *had* tried to help Callisto. For one thing, we
definitely don't know that Callisto would have been executed, had she been
found guilty. After all, in the next episode, she has merely been
imprisoned. And we don't know that she was imprisoned for life. She might
have eventually been released back into society. Callisto would have had
time in prison for introspection and to reconsider her ways. Its very
significant that we know nothing about the justice system there. For all we
know, if Callisto demonstrated repentence at her crime, that might have made
her punishment more lenient. And what proof was there of Callisto's guilt
anyway? Melas was about to kill Xena earlier, thinking she was Callisto.
It was far from a foregone conclusion that Callisto would be convicted. If
Callisto were released, Xena would probably have to defend her from the mob,
and if she were going to kill innocent villagers, she would want to know it
was for good reason.
>> Then we get to Xena arriving in Callisto's camp after
>> Callisto has captured Gabrielle. Again, Xena says
>> nothing. Callisto starts a fight that she proclaims is
>> just to see who is a best fighter, and Xena has no
>> objection to that.
>
> Of course Xena has no objection. Gabrielle (and Joxer)
> were being threatened by Callisto. You don't negotiate
> with terrorists.
I'm not saying she should have negotiated. She should have tried to learn
more about what the purpose of the fight was and why it was needed. Get
Callisto to try to explain herself.
>> Again, that Callisto can't change and doesn't want to
>> change. She just waits for Callisto to make a move so
>> that she'll have an excuse to fight her. Callisto has to
>> endanger an innocent to get Xena to do anything. By
>> endangering the innocent, Callisto gets Xena at the
>> point of her sword and could kill her right there, but
>> has another long monologue again and spares her life.
>> And what does Xena have to say about that? Absolutely
>> nothing.
>
> What's your point?
Merely that Xena refuses to talk with Callisto, even at the many times when
Callisto wants to talk and there is no reason whatsoever not to.
>> Yeah, she's really gonna face her crimes in an
>> environment of hellish torture with the only people to
>> talk to being people as bad as or worse than her. And
>> how exactly is it that anyone would know if she suddenly
>> faced her crimes. Would a Hades manager cry "Red alert!
>> Callisto just faced her crimes. Bring in some good
>> people to talk with her so that she become a good person
>> and be transferred to the Elysian Fields." Somehow I got
>> the impression that Tartarus was for those who were
>> fundamentally evil and beyond hope and they would be
>> suffering for eternity.
>
> When a person dies, they are judged and then sent one
> place or the other. But to be sent to the Elysian Fields
> you have to have been on the "good" side in life, before
> death. This much is said in the episode with Marcus and
> Sisyphus, when no one could die. (Sorry, don't remember
> the episode name)
>
> Callisto wasn't sent to Tartarus to face her crimes,
> she's sent there to be punished for them.
Fine, then why did they have Arleia say that she *was* sent to Tartarus to
face her crimes? IMO because they didn't want to make it seem like what it
was: an execution.
> Why did Xena allow Callisto to be sent there?
> Containment. Like you said, and I've said, the risks in
> allowing her to live are too great.
I can accept this, but there was an implication that it was something other
than it was: an execution. I found that chilling. They *knew* Callisto was
feeling a lot of guilt about her actions, and yet all they did, even her own
mother, was use that against her to kill her. Callisto has made clear that
her reason for living is Xena. If Xena is still stuck in the underworld,
and Callisto wakes up from her dream, would Callisto continue to be a menace
to society? Doesn't seem likely at all to me. She'd probably kill herself
to get back with Xena.
>> But this is a Xena forum, so I'll get on with the next
>> episode, "A Necessary Evil." This is probably the
>> episode that most comes to mind for most people. But its
>> no better here, IMO. After Callisto has been trapped in
>> her hate some more, Xena comes to use her out of
>> necessity as a tool to stop Velasca. Callisto begins
>> with her usual verbose, open-ended introduction and
>> Xena's only reply is "Callisto, I didn't come here for
>> this." Does she say why she *is* there? No, she's so
>> passive that Callisto has to attack her before Xena even
>> mentions the ambrosia she plans to lure Callisto along
>> with.
>
> That's not how I read that scene at all. Callisto
> attacked Xena before she could make a proposal.
Xena could have said her proposal outright. "Callisto! I came to offer you
ambrosia." She should have said that as soon as she climbed down the rope.
Instead, she prowls around calling "Callisto?" She did not have to say
something ambiguous like "I didn't come here for this." That could mean
anything. Maybe she came to send Callisto back to Tartarus, for all
Callisto knew.
>> IMO, Xena has decided from the beginning that she's just
>> going to use Callisto.
>
> Xena recognizes the danger Callisto represents and deals
> with her accordingly.
I don't dispute that, but I don't consider that heroic, considering that it
was very much in her own interest to kill Callisto and she did nary a thing
to try to help Callisto. I'm not sure I even consider it right. For Xena
to execute someone so much like herself with not one attempt to talk to
Callisto where she makes a concerted effort. There was a point made that if
you eliminated all potential threats, you'd have to kill everyone. You have
to draw the line somewhere. I draw it so that giving people a chance if you
have a reasonable opportunity to do so is on the side of the line that is
reasonable. And by "chance," I don't mean something to the effect of "I
changed and am sorry about the way I used to be. Do you want to change,
too? No? Well, then, no more living for you."
> But still, the offer she gives is more of a mutual
> benefit sort of thing. I'll give you something you want
> if you do something I want. Ambrosia for help with
> Velasca.
What good is ambrosia if you're trapped for eternity in lava flow, which I
saw nothing to indicate Xena didn't have in mind for Callisto all along.
>> She seems to not want to do anything that could make
>> Callisto change her mind about helping them. Xena is
>> clearly in a hurry to stop Velasca and doesn't have time
>> for anything else like talking to Callisto, even if she
>> wanted to. Now we get to the big evidence many people
>> cite. Xena apologized in front of a whole village for
>> her crimes. Surely that should have an effect on
>> Callisto if she were receptive to change and reformable.
>> Well, take a look at Callisto's reaction during that
>> scene. She was very moved. She seemed to be moved beyond
>> words.
>
> That's, again, not how I read that scene. Callisto didn't
> really seem to care, as far as I saw.
This is one scene I'd suggest rewatching. A lot of things I'll agree are
fairly ambigous and could be read different ways, but not this one, I don't
think.
> If anything, it made things worse for Callisto. Everyone
> in the village seemed totally indifferent (I think
> Callisto expected them to tear Xena apart in outrage for
> what was done to Callisto and Cirra), and it certainly
> had no real effect on Callisto's demeanor.
The idea was IMO that she was struggling to maintain her demeanor. Of
course she didn't suddenly break down and cry and repent of her ways. No
one changes that quickly. She was trying to hold on to how good it felt
just a few moments earlier to see Xena being humiliated.
> It was a hollow victory for Callisto and did nothing for
> her pain. She was disappointed, to say the least.
That doesn't conflict with what I've said. In fact, it proves my point that
Callisto showed signs that she could be helped. If she was disappointed in
her current ways, she might be open to new ones. In "Maternal Instincts,"
the disappointment becomes too much and its pretty clear IMO that she gives
up on revenge entirely. That leaves a hole that you might be able to fill
with something good. Also, the fact that the villagers were disappointed
could have indicated to Callisto that maybe she wasn't so right after all in
what she was trying to do to Xena. I would think she would have been asking
herself questions. Xena and Gabrielle could have helped her find answers.
>> And there wasn't even any need for her to be because
>> Xena was apologizing because Callisto wouldn't help her
>> otherwise. Xena was forced to apologize! If you make
>> someone say they're sorry, should you then forgive them
>> and think about changing your whole way of life when
>> they say they're sorry?
>
> And yet, the apology was given in completely sincere
> tones; Xena WAS genuinely sorry that it had ever
> happened, she'd expressed as much in previous episodes.
It was better than Xena's other apology in "Callisto," but that's beside the
point as well. Callisto's whole idea IMO is that Xena is only acting. That
Xena is not truly any different than she was. Its not unreasonable at all
for her to think that the apology was just a performance.
> Maybe someone saying that they're sorry and remorseful
> isn't enough, but it's a start.
I've said the same thing. Its only a start. A start doesn't get you
anywhere. Its only worth anything if you follow through on it. You can
call Callisto's reactions hitting a brick wall, but it is my strong opinion
that that was only resistance that should be expected. Xena and Gabrielle
just couldn't see it for what it was IMO.
> Xena'd tried to apologize before to Callisto and got
> brick-walled.
Yes, and then she gave up. And as I've tried to show, she gave up as soon
as Callisto said anything to indicate she wasn't buying what Xena said hook,
line, and sinker. Honestly, the only example of Xena attempting anything
that I think that has any real merit at all is Xena's first apology to her
in "Callisto," and I've already ripped that apart sufficiently. And to us,
the viewing audience, it seemed like more than it would have to Callisto,
who doesn't have as much information to go on as we do.
> THIS time, Callisto wanted to hear it, was willing to
> listen.
She was willing to listen the first time as well. She just told Xena
afterward that she didn't think much of her apology and Xena didn't try
anything further. Maybe this was an attempt to get Xena to be more sincere
and open.
> I don't think Xena felt forced to do it, I think she
> found it a good opportunity, if a little humiliating.
Whether Xena felt forced to do it or not is beside the point again. Take
*Callisto's* perspective for a change instead of Xena's, as you tell me to
do. Maybe I can clarify just how limited the scope is of what I'm getting
at. I've told you that I don't really condemn executions as a rule, but am
merely trying to point out how it seemed to me that there was a better
alternative that often bore little risk and that was really almost staring
Xena in the face that she refused to take. I don't particularly condemn
Xena's behavior, but I think there was a lot more she could easily have
done, whether she saw it or not.
Callisto forced Xena to apologize. Therefore she had no way of knowing
whether the apology would be genuine or not. IMO, looking at Callisto's
reaction, she ended up feeling it *was* genuine even in spite of this, all
the more to her credit, showing that things could reach her. When Xena
walked up to her after her apology, she waited for a response from Callisto.
There wasn't one. That, to me, is a loud siren. Callisto could come up
with a lot of mocking things to say or just generally took charge of the
situation since Xena needed her more than she needed Xena. But when Xena
saw that there wasn't going to be a response, she just walked away, ordering
Callisto to follow and Callisto still didn't do any of the cruel things she
could have done.
>> And what does Xena say after her apology? She walks up
>> to Callisto with a harsh "Let's go" and walks away,
>> ignoring any effect she might have had on Callisto.
>> She's not going to follow through on it or even check if
>> there's anything to follow through on. She just assumed
>> that it meant nothing to Callisto, that Callisto was
>> beyond reach.
>
> Can you blame her? It certainly SEEMED to have no effect
> on Callisto, besides disappointment.
As I said, I'm pretty forgiving of Xena, and after such humiliation, its
only human for her to not be able see outside of herself. But if Callisto
did seem disappointed, that was another chance for her to try to show
Callisto things she wouldn't be disappointed by. Because if she doesn't,
you can bet Callisto is likely to keep trying things that are even worse in
the hope that *they* won't disappoint her.
I thought Callisto was standing there waiting for *Xena* to say something
because she had been affected by what Xena said. Callisto could have and
you would think *would have* said something if she didn't believe Xena was
sincere. Do you expect Callisto to do everything? Do you expect her to say
"Gosh, Xena, I was so touched by what you said and I
really think you meant it. Its making me reconsider
everything I believe in." I would guess that Callisto
was ready to rub in the humiliation for Xena afterward
originally and was unable to bring herself to do it, struck speechless.
>> I could really go on forever with this, but just a few
>> more obvious examples. In a later scene when they reach
>> the battleground chosen to fight Velasca, Callisto
>> actually offers to give Xena some of the ambrosia. She
>> says "Ah-uh, and then it's you and me and the ambrosia.
>> I just had a marvelous idea. Why don't you and I both
>> eat it? That way, we could be fighting each other for
>> eternity." As if thinking that Xena enjoys fighting with
>> her. That is not the mark of someone who wants to kill a
>> person's soul.
>
> It IS the mark of someone a bit loopy. Who wants a
> perpetual deul with the person you hate the most?
> Callisto was a wingnut by then, no doubt.
Exactly. I would argue that this shows that Xena was no longer the person
she hated the most. But that is all Callisto has known in her life, so
she's still using her old ways of interacting with people. You can make the
argument for everything that Callisto does that seems odd and that you don't
understand that it is further evidence that she was a wingnut, but I'm
trying to show that there are other possibilities that could be quite
plausible if given even a little thought, which, for various reasons, Xena
and Gabrielle seemed determined not to do.
>> the campfire scene that night. The other biggie that
>> everyone cites. They usually neglect to mention that
>> Callisto seems to speak quite openly and honestly at
>> first about not having any real meaningful feelings and
>> how much that hurts, along with the loss of her family.
>
> That's merely the setup for what Callisto considered the
> punchline.
You can, of course, look at it that way, but that was one hell of a setup
for a punchline, I thought. Gabrielle looked almost about to cry. Let me
give you something to consider: What does a person feel like doing once
they've spilled their guts and admitted that, except for "bits and pieces
here and there," their life is meaningless and empty? Probably do something
to make themselves feel good, like making the people they're with not seem
so much better than them. And Callisto succeeded. She could often control
herself better than Gabrielle.
> Besides, someone not feeling anything like that is a
> sociopath.
Really? Not someone depressed and in a lingering pain that has gone on so
long they'll do almost anything to stop it?
>> Now, Callisto then asks Gabrielle a question about *her*
>> pain, pain being the center of Callisto's life. She asks
>> straightfaced how long it took Perdicus to die.
>
> She asks this out of pure psychotic glee, the intention
> was to HURT Gabrielle, not to have an open dialogue.
I'll agree that she was trying to end the dialogue (by getting the *other*
person to end it. I don't think she would have ended it.) and possibly hurt
Gabrielle, but because she was starting to feel vulnerable, not because she
wasn't receptive. I'm not saying that Callisto wants to have an open
dialogue about her problems. She's not going to say things like "Gabrielle,
I feel I have developed some mental problems. Do you think you could help
me with them?" One thing I think she did there was convince herself that
she didn't need someone like Gabrielle's help because Gabrielle couldn't
even take a verbal barb.
>> And Gabrielle can't control her anger and humiliation
>> enough to sit and answer the question as Callisto had
>> done when Gabrielle tried to pry into her deepest
>> feelings as if they were a topic of casual dinner
>> conversation.
>
> If she had wanted to pry into Gabby's feelings, she would
> have asked how Gabby had felt when Perdicus had died or
> what his loss had done to Gabby. She would NOT have asked
> how long it took Perdie to die, as if she wanted to savor
> each agonizing second.
She would have asked that IF she didn't care about how that appeared and the
other things I've mentioned. And I didn't say she wanted to pry into
Gabby's feelings. I said she was responding in a way she thought may have
felt was commensurate. Callisto still doesn't see the value in Xena or
Gabrielle's ways, and with someone as far down the road to hatred as she is,
its not likely to happen on its own. Xena and Gabby have to talk to
Callisto about them.
>> Nope, Gabrielle storms off in a rage, unable to continue
>> the conversation and be open and honest. And of course
>> Callisto laughs. If she hadn't, she would have appeared
>> hurt by Gabrielle storming off.
>
> You HAVE to be kidding. You're reading so much into this,
> and it appears to stem from some deep seated
> preconception that Callisto was anything other than
> deliberately hurtful.
I admit I am reading quite a bit into a number of things and this one is
probably a bit much. But I'm only doing this to throw out alternate
possibilities than the obvious conclusions that are easy and convenient for
people to arrive at. I seldom see anyone considering questions like these.
They occur to me and I think a number of the obvious ones should have
occured to Xena and Gabrielle. (Though it makes for a good story when
characters don't see things, but later do. The future Callisto episodes on
X:WP have the potential to be very good. :-) And I freely admit Callisto
was very often deliberately hurtful, but I still can't help but see a lot in
her and it seems reasonable to me that she might well have had the potential
to change if she had help.
>> And there's no reason to be hurt by someone who's so
>> angry with you that they can't control themselves enough
>> to carry on a conversation with you.
>
> Sure there is. It hurts because it hurts, and they're
> making it worse.
Yes, but that's beside the point I was making that someone with very
different thought processes than those you assume of Callisto would have
behaved the same as the kind of person you assume Callisto to be.
>> Who knows how Callisto might have reacted had Gabrielle
>> told Callisto honestly about how Perdicus' death hurt
>> her.
>
> Callisto would have done what Callisto always does: revel
> in it.
This is what puzzles me somewhat. I admit I'm biased to liking Callisto.
But a few people seem biased to disliking her beyond reason. Almost hating
her. I'm not sure why Callisto gets such a harsh reaction out of some
people. She does not much worse than what a lot of villains do, yet there
is a special resentment of her. If she were thought to be merely insane, I
doubt people would be more than mildly annoyed.
Callisto probably *would* have at least tried to revel in Gabby's pain, but
I doubt it could have lasted. Eventually I think she would be affected,
especially in such a personal situation.
>> That would have been something for them to have in
>> common. Something for Callisto to relate to so that they
>> could have a dialogue.
>
> If Callisto wanted a dialogue, she should have asked
> about Gabby's pain, not caused her more. Talk about
> shooting yourself in the foot.
You're back to expecting Callisto to start such a dialogue as if she's
already changed. I was looking at it from how Gabrielle could have looked
at it here, not Callisto. Callisto probably doesn't even particularly want
such a dialogue. What I'm advocating is that Xena and Gabrielle start such
dialogues and have the fortitude to stick with them, *expecting* that
they're going to meet resistance. If they didn't, there wouldn't be any
point in having the dialogue because Callisto would be already changed or
just about there! That's what would make it heroic. You can't expect
Callisto to accept whatever they say and never get angry and have normal
human reactions and resist change, as people tend to do.
>> Now let's jump to the end of the episode and the last
>> nail in the coffin. Gabrielle may come around a bit when
>> she asks "Xena, do you think that, deep down, Callisto
>> feels sorry for the things that she's done?" Xena's
>> response is a shocked "No!" It never occured to her that
>> Callisto could be sorry and capable of changing.
>> Gabrielle just seems interested in forgiving her so that
>> she can move on now that Callisto is dead, but Xena
>> won't even go that far.
> Look, the reason they have Alcoholics Anonymous meetings
> run by alcoholics is becuase you have to have been there
> to be able to cure others and help them deal with it all.
> You have to have that understanding. Xena has been in
> Callisto's position, she knows how it feels and the kinds
> of reactions that show a willingness to change. There was
> nobody in a better position to know than Xena.
The problem is that Callisto hasn't been in the same situations as Xena has
because she's never had anyone help her. Xena showed things that could
indicate a willingness to change when people like Lao Ma tried to help her.
If Xena were to give helping Callisto her best shot, I'll bet she would soon
see that there was hope for Callisto for the reasons you describe.
> Callisto was obviously beyond help in Xena's experience.
> With that in mind, I'd yield to Xena's expert opinion
> rather than go with Gabby's idealism.
That's a nice line of reasoning, if you don't account for the variable that
Xena had things biasing her judgement, such as guilt and anger.
>> IMO, Callisto was always *very* willing to talk,
>> especially to Xena, and Xena, for the most part, tried
>> to ignore her unless she had to actually physically
>> fight her.
>
> Callisto was never willing to talk in such a way that it > would be worth
talking back.
Again, you seem to expect Callisto to say things like "Oh, I feel terrible
about what I've done. Help me, Xena." Of course what Callisto says is not
going to seem encouraging at first. She's going to resist changing, as
anyone would, not just someone with problems as serious as hers, problems
which probably make it even harder for her to change since changing means
accepting the guilt of all the tremendous harm she's done, a burden which
Xena still seems to suffer from.
> Callisto was an antagonist, not someone crying out for
> help.
So we should only help people that are crying out that they're screwed up
and need help to totally change their life? You probably won't find a lot
of those. I think people who don't know that they need help should be
helped as well.
>> When did Callisto ever show an unwillingness to continue
>> a conversation? Sure, she said a lot of insulting, cruel
>> things, which made other people terminate the
>> conversation (usually because they couldn't handle it),
>> but did she ever do so herself?
>
> Callisto takes great delight in the pain she causes
> others, you have only to look at her girlishly gleeful
> face when she does it to know that.
Yes, so what? Who hasn't done that at some point? Doesn't mean she
wouldn't continue talking with someone if they really tried to talk to her.
She might be trying just as much to change them as they her. It just takes
a lot of fortitude for the person talking to her to not let themselves be
hurt too much by her so that they could continue talking rationally and
trying to help her.
> You seem to be under the impression that Callisto was
> talking to try and work out her pain.
Possibly she was in a few instances, but even if she wasn't, it doesn't
matter. Someone could have tried to get her to that point.
> It looks more like she was trying to cause pain to others.
Its not a matter of one or the other. It can be both.
> Callisto was WAY out of chances, there is nothing that
> could excuse all the atrocities she committed.
I never said there was an excuse for atrocities. What I'm disputing is
these "chances." What I see your idea of chances is is letting Callisto run
her course and just observe whether she changes or not. If she does,
great. If not, execute her. My only argument is that Xena should have
tried to help Callisto--that those were the kind of chances she should have
given her. Only if *those* kinds of chances failed could execution be seen
as reasonable.
> And if the attempt is made, and it was, to try and talk
> them down and they are unreceptive, they deserve
> _nothing_.
This is the real issue. I didn't see any real attempts. There weren't
attempts to 'talk Callisto down.' It was more like "Are you coming down?
No? Well, hurry up and jump, then, so we can get on with other things."
> To change, one first has to be willing to change.
> Callisto wasn't willing.
Perfectly true, but she might have *become* willing had she been given
reasons to. That's the part missing. Hercules says to Callisto in
"Surprise," after she asks him flat out why he's not trying to change her,
that Xena changed because she wanted to change. What he neglects to mention
is that he almost certainly had a hand in making her *want* to change. He's
just too modest to say something like that, I suppose, which is
understandable.
-- Callistoee
Jason C. Leach <calli...@yahoo.com>
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: ta...@IfYouSpamMeIWillHaveYouKilled.cris.com wrote:
:>> However, I also think it would have been heroic for Xena
:>> to have tried to change Callisto, especially during the
:>> times that she had Callisto already restrained.
:>
:> Here's the problem: What, exactly, should Xena (or
:> anyone, it doesn't HAVE to be Xena) have said that would
:> work on Callisto, and WHY would it have worked. Everyone
:> who's said that Xena didn't try hard enough has been
:> asked this question and they've all evaded the issue.
: Actually, I think merely talking to her might have gone a long way. I'm no
: psychologist, nor is Xena, so that's probably about all she can do--try to
: talk to Callisto and talk about things as they come up in the course of a
: conversation. There would be no guaranteed prescribed program of success.
Then it isn't worth trying. The main reason opponents of Callisto
being allowed to live, myself especially, is that Callisto is too
dangerous to be allowed to roam about. She has been known to escape
dungeons, jails, holes in the ground, lava, Tartarus, etc. She has been
known to kill random people in a fairly psychotic manner.
With those traits in mind, talking to her like that will give her
an opportunity to escape. Talking to her like that will give her a chance
to kill again.
Now, if we listen to Lazarus, we DON'T KNOW if she will or not. I
say, big deal. But that's just my point, we DON'T know, and we have to be
certain to protect others. The only way to be certain that Callisto
wouldn't kill ever again at the time of her death was to kill _her_. She
was a god and couldn't be contained so if she didn't want to be reasoned
with, she could escape, and she'd probably never be in such a convenient
position to be stuck with that dagger again.
"Nuke Callisto from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."
-Corporal Hicksacles
: Xena would just have to deal with things as they come up through talking.
: And if talking didn't work, she probably would end up eventually having to
: kill her. What I can and will do is describe things Xena did wrong.
I barely even need to read these. You've _still_ sidestepped the
issue.
: Instances where there were things she could've said and done. The thing
: that stands out in my mind is that Xena seemed always unwilling to talk with
: Callisto, whereas Callisto was always all too willing to talk.
Callisto was never willing to talk in a theraputic way. Only in an
antagonistic way. The first step to getting help is to be willing to
accept such help.
: XENA: Argo won't obey you, and if you don't stop kicking her, I'll break
: your ankles.
: So its implied that they haven't been talking up to this point. Xena is
: only saying something to stop Callisto from annoying Argo. Xena's taking
: her to prison and that's that.
Well, it could have something to do with the fact that Xena truly
cares about Argo and doesn't like to see her treated cruelly...like being
repeatedly kicked for no reason.
: CALLISTO: Oh, the good Xena. What happened to you? One day you just decided
: to fight for justice?
: Callisto mocks her to get her to respond. And then comes a prime
: opportunity. Callisto asks Xena point blank what made Xena change. She's
: completely open to Xena explaining herself.
Or Callisto could simply be trying to taunt Xena. After all, in
Callisto's mind it's XENA who's evil. She's trying to say to Xena, "Aren't
you being hypocritical, trying to deny the Xena we all know and loathe?
How can you be GOOD, you who destroyed my village? That's like denying the
fact that you killed my entire family, and like you expect absolution for
such misdeeds simply because now you prevent such things instead of
causing them. Well, here's what I think of that! (*ptui!*)"
THAT'S what Callisto was doing, not opneing herself up to Xena.
: XENA: Something like that.
: This is Xena's sum response. "Something like that." I wonder if I even
: need to say anything further. By this, not only does Xena trivialize what
: she stands for now, as if she has no conviction in it, she is telling
: Callisto that she not worth talking to. That Callisto is incapable of
: understanding the message. Xena has already given up. Xena is so convinced
: that, while she had changed, Callisto couldn't, that she's not even going to
: try. But Callisto goes on, so Xena has to keep responding.
Callisto isn't worth talking to because she's only trying to bait
Xena. A smart hero doesn't listen to their enemies' chatter because it's
too easy to be tricked into some sort of deul to the death or looking at
things in such a way that maybe all those killings weren't quite so bad
after all...
: CALLISTO: And all the shattered people you left behind were now supposed to
: cheer you, is that it?
This only confirms what I said up above. This is what Callisto was
trying to say to Xena, not trying to open up but trying to bait her and
twist her motives around.
: XENA: No.
Translation: I'm not doing this, Callisto. You can bait me all you
like, but you're as responsible for your own actions as I am for the
people I've killed. You could have dealt with your pain in ways other
than violence, so could I. But I won't see a monster loosed on the world
the like of which we haven't seen since, well, me, and for the greater
good you need to be put away. And I'm giving you no foothold to work on me
from, so my answers will be monosyllabic and real conversation enders, so
just stop trying, uh-kay?
: And then there's a long pause. The way Xena says this is astonishing
: because its like its ok for other people to cheer her, but she doesn't
: expect her victims to. Well, why not? If she does something that deserves
: cheering, everyone should cheer. Its not for Xena to decide what's
: cheerworthy or not, of course, but there's a definite implication that Xena
: is not so certain of herself. But does she go with this? Does she question
: or explore the matter? No, she doesn't, so it seems like Xena has realized
: her wrongdoing and is just trying to get away from it by later considering
: letting Callisto go. Its no wonder IMO that Callisto is so derisive of
: Xena's professed goodness.
This is a stretch of reasoning to say the least.
: XENA: What happened to you was terrible. It was my fault and I'm sorry.
: Xena ducks out of continuing the discussion of the subject by merely
: apologizing for something else. As if she can just say that and that should
: make it all better, and if it doesn't, well, hey, she can say she tried.
: IIRC Xena didn't even look at Callisto when she apologized. It sounded to
: me for all the world like she was just reciting something by rote and not
: expecting it to make a bit of difference. She had failed before she had
: even begun. So of course Callisto doesn't think much of an apology like
: that and says:
: CALLISTO: Oh, well! That makes all the difference. And now, we can be the
: best of friends. (spits on Xena's head) That's what I think of your apology.
Well, duh. I mean, you can't just apologize for the death of
someone's family and expect it to all be better. But at the same time,
what WOULD make it better? I mean, Callisto wants Xena's death in
retribution. If I was Xena, I wouldn't just put my head on the block, but
since Callisto won't seem to accept anything less, what's the point in
trying?
Callisto was unreasonable, like a child. She wanted what she
wanted and notbing else would do. If this isn't a sign of her actual
insanity, you're not looking hard enough.
: That's what I thought of Xena's apology too! That had to be the worst
: apology in the history of apologies.
No, the worst apology in the history of apologies is the one that
tries to excuse the wrongdoer in the same breath as the apology. "I'm
sorry, but it wasn't my fault because of this and this and this." Xena
admitted her guilt to Callisto completely and unreservedly.
: Xena didn't seem to even care to see
: how Callisto reacted to her apology, as if it was something she was only
: doing for herself to make *her* feel better. That is the whole problem.
: Callisto can't see anything to this 'goodness' business and seems to
: conclude Xena has just become cowardly.
Not remotely. Callisto wants Xena's death, not her understanding,
not to understand her, not anything but revenge against Xena, because she
thinks that's what will take the pain away.
Everything Callisto did or said when she was around Xena was an
attempt to bait her, to make her enemy _hurt_.
: She can't even bring herself to
: face Callisto. *Callisto* gives *Xena* so many chances. But Xena says
: nothing again. As if an apology was all she could do.
What more can anyone expect? Callisto would only bait Xena and
look for an opportunity to cause trouble again. Callisto's actions are not
Xena's responsibility, only Callisto's. Callisto's pain may be Xena's
fault, but Callisto's reaction to that pain is entirely on her own head.
: How sorry can she
: really seem if all she's willing to do is apologize on the way to taking
: Callisto to prison? She might as well have said "Hopefully you'll feel
: better in prison knowing that the person who murdered your family is sorry
: about it. I know I feel better." This time the plot excuses her from it
: because Gabrielle comes rushing up soon afterward to inform her that Melas
: has gone crazy and is organizing a lynch mob.
Again, what more should have been done? Callisto was a maniac and
HAD to be contained. Whether she was then going to be talked to after
being contained, well, that's another story, but Callisto was too clever
and would probably try to manipulate someone into letting poor little old
her go.
: CALLISTO: Well, I'm not afraid to die, if that's what you're worried about.
: What about you, Xena? How will you feel to see your creation executed
: without a fair trial, hmm?
: Callisto is asking Xena how she would feel if she were executed. Does Xena
: say that that would be wrong or that she's even considering that that might
: be wrong? Anything to indicate that its not just that that might make her
: feel some unpleasant guilt? Nope.
Ah, but you see, Callisto believes herself to be Xena's creation.
But she's only half right. The painful part, that's Xena's fault (though I
don't buy that it's her fault alone, that it isn't is implied several
times and several places; there was another warlord present at Cirra, Xena
never ordered the burning, etc), but the violent part, that's Callisto's
fault. Xena should feel no guilt over Callisto being executed for her
crimes, only over having caused Callisto such pain. CALLISTO is
responsible for Callisto's actions, no matter who is responsible for
making her feel one way or another.
: But maybe we can forgive Xena again
: because Gabrielle butts in with:
: GABRIELLE: Don't listen to her, Xena. You can't torture yourself over what
: she's become.
Hah! Exactly what I'm saying all along. This is the truth, and
it's also how the law works in our own time: if you do the crime, it was
your decision and your fault, not anyone else's; you can always choose not
to. And while the Xenaverse isn't our time or our world, this concept
seems to be intact is Gabby says it to Xena.
: So Gabrielle considers Melas organizing a lynch mob as "crazy," yet Callisto
: shouldn't be listened to when she implies not thinking that its fair?
The lynch mob is crazy BECAUSE it isn't fair. A lynch mob exists
to exact justice without any kind of representation or trial. A lynch mob
is all about revenge without the possibility of justice.
: But
: more importantly, this is beside the point. Its not that Xena should
: torture herself or feel terrible so much as that she should *do* something.
: Help Callisto. She can do that without feeling terrible inside.
She DOES help Callisto, though not in any way that you would
probably consider help.
For one, she is determined to not let the lynch mob get her. That
is death without just cause. If Callisto is going to die for her crimes,
it's going to be after careful review of the facts.
But the simple fact is, Callisto was either going to die to that
mob, be tried for her crimes, or escape and cause trouble again. There's
no other option. Even if Xena had talked to Callisto and tried to patch
things up, Callisto was STILL going to be tried. And a conviction was all
but certain. So what's that point?
: She should
: do it because its the right thing to do. Washing her hands of guilt over
: creating Callisto is not the same as absolving herself of responsibility to
: try to help someone, something that's she in unique position to do here
: because Callisto will listen to her, and probably only her.
Xena has no responsibility to Callisto. None.
: CALLISTO: No! No. No, of course not. No, it's not her fault at all that I
: dream every night of my mother's screams coming from my burning home! You
: tell me Xena, do you sleep well at night?!
: XENA: No, I don't.
: Here we go again. Xena won't say *why* she doesn't sleep well at night.
: Leaving Callisto to conclude that Xena just feels "tortured" as Gabrielle
: describes. That could just seem like cowardice. Xena is not asserting that
: she doesn't sleep well because no matter how much she tries to change, the
: pain she has caused still hurts her to this very day. So it could seem that
: Xena feels still unsure whether she's doing the right thing or not. How can
: Callisto come to believe in such a code as the one Xena professes to believe
: in when Xena doesn't even seem to believe in it herself?
Callisto wants Xena to HURT. That's what makes Callisto feel good.
She doesn't care WHY Xena hurts, just that she does. Callisto cares about
revenge, not remorse.
: CALLISTO: Good. Well I can take whatever it is you think I have coming to
: me. But you tell me this, Xena, have you ever been tried for all of the
: things you have done? Have you ever been handed over to a mob that wanted
: your blood?
Translation: Not fair, not fair, not fair! Why does Xena get to
run free while I get to be tried for my crimes? SHE didn't get tried, why
should I? Boo-hoo!
: XENA: What would you do if I let you go?
: What is to indicate to Callisto that Xena isn't just motivated by self-
: preservation? Xena might as well have said "If I let you go, will you
: promise not to try to hurt me or my reputation anymore?"
Or, possibly, "If I let you go, will you promise not to KILL
again?" OR, moreto the point, "...will you promise to kill just to get to
me again? Innocent lives are dying for your revenge, and you're only
perpetuating the very thing you hated about ME."
I think your interpretation is one of Xena being selfish as
opposed to worried about the common good.
: For all
: appearances, Xena just seems to be a coward. She can't deal with Callisto
: directly, nor can she deal with the thought of Callisto being executed.
: Might cause her to have a few extra bad nights of sleep. And then Xena
: later supports this interpretation by being her usual silent self when
: Callisto laughs at the ridiculousness of Xena's offer. But first she talks
: about Callisto as if she's not there in a whispered aside with Gabrielle.
: GABRIELLE: What are you doing?
: XENA: I changed, so can she.
: GABRIELLE: No, her heart has been eaten away by hatred.
: Well, with an evaluation like this from Gabrielle, how can Xena do anything
: else? She just follows Gabrielle's judgment all the time, it seems.
: Gabrielle shocks me even more than Xena with this remark. Gabrielle, who
: has such faith in humanity. Funny how Xena's heart got uneaten away with
: hatred, and yet there's no hope for Callisto and Gabrielle is so convinced
: of this that she gets angry at Xena even considering it.
But if Gabrielle can say this, and believe it of Callisto, perhaps
it is true. It certainly seemes to be true. There's no idication of it
being otherwise.
: Finally, Callisto has a nice speech that tells Xena that she's not going to
: let her off the hook so easily, that she won't change if Xena just lets her
: go. Xena has made a mockery of her own ideals by considering letting
: Callisto go without any indication whatsoever that Callisto would change.
Ah, but Xena hasn't done that at all. She's evaluating CALLISTO'S
ideals, motives, and future actions. Had Callisto been willing to express
interest in possibly changing her ways, Xena might have taken the risk.
But that was on Callisto's head, SHE is the only one who can change
herself, and she was still consumed by her need for revenge.
: Callisto viciously drives this home by telling Xena to take her to the mob
: because that would be no better in terms of 'rightness' than letting
: Callisto go. So what does Xena do after all this? She says nothing to
: refute any of Callisto's points and takes Callisto to the mob.
No, she doesn't. Had Xena "given" Callisto to the mob, they would
have strung her up right then and there. No, Xena brought Callisto to
_justice_, to be tried fairly.
I would have liked to have seen that trial. Do you think Xena
might have testified on Callisto's behalf? Perhaps tried ot get her off by
reason of insanity? Or would she have tried to get her convicted to remove
a danger from the world? We'll never know, but I think not seeing that
trial is a big part of the mis-conception on your part of Xena's motives
and methods.
: Xena has the
: arrogant notion, no doubt, that she'll be able to defend Callisto from them
: and keep her in a prison, but it fails, of course, and the only reason
: Callisto isn't executed by the mob is because she's able to defend herself
: and escape.
And yet, when her cell was bruning, Xena tried to save Callisto.
Xena cares about _justice_, not mob justice and not about Callisto's
revenge, but justice. Plain and simple.
:> I, personally, don't believe anything would have worked,
:> at least, not without working on Callisto _forever_, and
:> in the meantime Callisto could be planning her escape as
:> we have seen her do many times in the past.
: That's always a risk with prisons. You'd have to have the death penalty for
: every crime. While you have to minimize risks, there comes a point where it
: becomes unreasonable.
Callisto was unreasonable, needed to be contained for SURE. At the
end, death was the only way.
:> Hey, c'mon, Callisto was _dangerous_. When someone like
:> Callisto is causing havoc and running loose, you don't go
:> sending them messages that say "C'mon in, we'll talk. No
:> tricks, I just want to ease your pain." and expect to
:> have that work. Most likely you'll get sent back the head
:> of your messenger and a note saying "My pain will be
:> eased with your death."
: My point is, why did Xena have to send a message at all? To get Callisto
: angry and force a showdown as soon as possible? That's what it seems like
: to me.
No, no, the point of the message would be to bring Callisto to her
to try and ease her pain by talking, just like you said. NOT to provoke a
showdown. And MY point is that this wouldn't work.
: If, once Xena had gotten Callisto's attention, she tried to work
: with her, that would contradict that, but Xena didn't. That means Xena
: never had any intention of trying to help Callisto, right from the very
: first time they met.
Of course she didn't. Only Callisto could help Callisto, or at the
very least, only Callisto could decide it was time to get better, and she
never did. But Xena cared about justice, she cared about the lives that
Callisto was disrupting, and those she was ending. THAT'S why Callisto
needed to be stopped. If Callisto was JUST attacking Xena, not involving
innocents, that would be different. Xena could TAKE the time to heal
Callisto because C wouldn't be a danger to anyone but Xena. But that
wasn't the case, so Callisto had to go.
:> What other options were there? As you said, Xena could
:> hardly let Callisto go. She couldn't justify it to the
:> enraged mob outside who had all lost family and friends
:> to Callisto and it would be a validation for Callisto's
:> behavior. And if Xena tried to talk to Callisto and
:> actually got through,got Callisto to reform her ways only
:> to have her executed for her crimes in a fair trial...or
:> ripped apart by that mob...what would be the point?
: So now we've gone to saying that trying to change Callisto here would have
: been pointless anyway. Ok, just keep in mind that once again Xena did not
: try to change her here. Its a separate argument now as to what the point
: would have been if she *had* tried to help Callisto. For one thing, we
: definitely don't know that Callisto would have been executed, had she been
: found guilty. After all, in the next episode, she has merely been
: imprisoned. And we don't know that she was imprisoned for life. She might
: have eventually been released back into society.
I'm sorry, I have to laugh, here. You don't put someone in a chair
that would have made Hannibal Lecter uncomfy if you intend to let them go.
: Callisto would have had
: time in prison for introspection and to reconsider her ways.
Yet she didn't. This should tell you something.
: Its very
: significant that we know nothing about the justice system there. For all we
: know, if Callisto demonstrated repentence at her crime, that might have made
: her punishment more lenient.
And yet, she didn't. This should also tell you something.
: And what proof was there of Callisto's guilt
: anyway?
How about the fact that it was HER army attacking that village,
and SHE was the one proclaiming she was Xena after trashing a place?
: Melas was about to kill Xena earlier, thinking she was Callisto.
And WHY did he attack Xena? Melas had heard it was XENA who killed
his son, razed his village. Then Xena happens to mention who she is, so
Melas attacked her. He never SAW the Xena who attacked his village, so
when he heard the name he figured it was the right person. But Callisto
was SAYING she was Xena just to get this very effect.
Callisto's guilt is certain, or this ploy wouldn't have worked.
: It was far from a foregone conclusion that Callisto would be convicted. If
: Callisto were released, Xena would probably have to defend her from the mob,
: and if she were going to kill innocent villagers, she would want to know it
: was for good reason.
Moot point, didn't happen. We'll never know.
:> Of course Xena has no objection. Gabrielle (and Joxer)
:> were being threatened by Callisto. You don't negotiate
:> with terrorists.
: I'm not saying she should have negotiated. She should have tried to learn
: more about what the purpose of the fight was and why it was needed. Get
: Callisto to try to explain herself.
No, she shouldn't have. Not while Callisto was still a threat. If
Callisto is threatening lives she has to be neutralized before anything
else happens. That's the bottom line; until her hostages were released
Callisto could only be fought, not reasoned with. Callisto wants to be in
a position of power, she could threaten Gabby or Joxer if Xena didn't give
in to her. Xena couldn't reason with Callisto then because Callisto could
make unreasonable demands of Xena and if Xena didn't comply her friends
would be harmed for it. Like I said, you don't negotiate with terrorists.
:> When a person dies, they are judged and then sent one
:> place or the other. But to be sent to the Elysian Fields
:> you have to have been on the "good" side in life, before
:> death. This much is said in the episode with Marcus and
:> Sisyphus, when no one could die. (Sorry, don't remember
:> the episode name)
:>
:> Callisto wasn't sent to Tartarus to face her crimes,
:> she's sent there to be punished for them.
: Fine, then why did they have Arleia say that she *was* sent to Tartarus to
: face her crimes? IMO because they didn't want to make it seem like what it
: was: an execution.
So? In Tartarus, I'm sure she would face her crimes. But she would
be punished for them for eternity. Good motivator for good behavior in
life, neh?
:> Why did Xena allow Callisto to be sent there?
:> Containment. Like you said, and I've said, the risks in
:> allowing her to live are too great.
: I can accept this, but there was an implication that it was something other
: than it was: an execution. I found that chilling. They *knew* Callisto was
: feeling a lot of guilt about her actions, and yet all they did, even her own
: mother, was use that against her to kill her. Callisto has made clear that
: her reason for living is Xena. If Xena is still stuck in the underworld,
: and Callisto wakes up from her dream, would Callisto continue to be a menace
: to society? Doesn't seem likely at all to me. She'd probably kill herself
: to get back with Xena.
Callisto's hatred, unwillingness to change, and methods are what
condemned her. Had she changed earlier on, she may not have needed this
"execution".
:> That's not how I read that scene at all. Callisto
:> attacked Xena before she could make a proposal.
: Xena could have said her proposal outright. "Callisto! I came to offer you
: ambrosia." She should have said that as soon as she climbed down the rope.
: Instead, she prowls around calling "Callisto?" She did not have to say
: something ambiguous like "I didn't come here for this." That could mean
: anything. Maybe she came to send Callisto back to Tartarus, for all
: Callisto knew.
This is a stretch to say the least. I chalk Xena's inital prowling
in that cave up to theatrics rather than anything else.
:>> IMO, Xena has decided from the beginning that she's just
:>> going to use Callisto.
:>
:> Xena recognizes the danger Callisto represents and deals
:> with her accordingly.
: I don't dispute that, but I don't consider that heroic, considering that it
: was very much in her own interest to kill Callisto and she did nary a thing
: to try to help Callisto.
I don't care about heroism, personally. Xena cares about the
greater good, and that's more heroic, IMHO, than acting like an Erroll
Flynn/comic book hero.
:> But still, the offer she gives is more of a mutual
:> benefit sort of thing. I'll give you something you want
:> if you do something I want. Ambrosia for help with
:> Velasca.
: What good is ambrosia if you're trapped for eternity in lava flow, which I
: saw nothing to indicate Xena didn't have in mind for Callisto all along.
So? Callisto was contained before, Xena contained her again. What
other choice was there, really?
:> It was a hollow victory for Callisto and did nothing for
:> her pain. She was disappointed, to say the least.
: That doesn't conflict with what I've said. In fact, it proves my point that
: Callisto showed signs that she could be helped. If she was disappointed in
: her current ways, she might be open to new ones.
No, no, that's not what I said at all. She was disappointed with
several things, but her current ways wasn't one of them.
Callisto was disappointed that Xena could be so sincere and honest
about her apology in front of strangers. She wanted Xena to be humiliated
by the experience.
Callisto was disappointed that the crowds didn't seem to care. She
wanted moral outrage at what had been done to Cirra and Callisto's family.
She wanted to see the crowd to turn a mob and try to kill Xena for what
Xena had done to Callisto.
But disappointed at her own methods? No, Callisto's methods didn't
enter into it at all.
:> Xena'd tried to apologize before to Callisto and got
:> brick-walled.
: Yes, and then she gave up. And as I've tried to show, she gave up as soon
: as Callisto said anything to indicate she wasn't buying what Xena said hook,
: line, and sinker.
Reforming Callisto wasn't worth it in terms of the humans lives
expended to do it.
:> THIS time, Callisto wanted to hear it, was willing to
:> listen.
: She was willing to listen the first time as well. She just told Xena
: afterward that she didn't think much of her apology and Xena didn't try
: anything further. Maybe this was an attempt to get Xena to be more sincere
: and open.
Maybe Callisto has been shooting herself in the foot all along, as
you suggest. But it just isn't worth it to deal with someone like that.
Better to simply protect others and avoid all that abuse.
:> I don't think Xena felt forced to do it, I think she
:> found it a good opportunity, if a little humiliating.
: Whether Xena felt forced to do it or not is beside the point again. Take
: *Callisto's* perspective for a change instead of Xena's, as you tell me to
: do.
I did, but either you snipped it or just replied to what I said
without reading further, because I mentioned Callisto's perspective in my
last message. I mentioned it in this one, too. Callisto was disappointed,
and I gave the reasons. I won't repeat them because this is getting way
too long, but...
: Maybe I can clarify just how limited the scope is of what I'm getting
: at. I've told you that I don't really condemn executions as a rule, but am
: merely trying to point out how it seemed to me that there was a better
: alternative that often bore little risk
Right HERE, your credibility has gone down faster than Monica
Lewinsky. Callisto was a BIG risk, and any method tried on her that left
her alive and uncontained FOR SURE was not worth taking.
: Callisto forced Xena to apologize. Therefore she had no way of knowing
: whether the apology would be genuine or not. IMO, looking at Callisto's
: reaction, she ended up feeling it *was* genuine even in spite of this, all
: the more to her credit, showing that things could reach her.
No, no, it shows that things CAN'T reach her, because that sincere
apology did NO GOOD! Callisto didn't feel better after it, she felt
totally empty. It didn't ease her pain one iota, she knew it, and it only
made her feel worse.
:> That's merely the setup for what Callisto considered the
:> punchline.
: You can, of course, look at it that way, but that was one hell of a setup
: for a punchline, I thought. Gabrielle looked almost about to cry.
Which is what Callisto wanted. That's why the setup was so good.
It was classic misdirection. It made Gabby think that Callisto was finally
opneing up, finally acting human, and then BAM! It makes Gabby's fall that
much greater, and Callisto's pleasure at the pain of another even
stronger. You're assuming that what Callisto said about herself was
sincere, it may not have been.
:> Besides, someone not feeling anything like that is a
:> sociopath.
: Really? Not someone depressed and in a lingering pain that has gone on so
: long they'll do almost anything to stop it?
That's a pretty fair description of one kind of sociopath.
:> She asks this out of pure psychotic glee, the intention
:> was to HURT Gabrielle, not to have an open dialogue.
: I'll agree that she was trying to end the dialogue (by getting the *other*
: person to end it. I don't think she would have ended it.) and possibly hurt
: Gabrielle, but because she was starting to feel vulnerable, not because she
: wasn't receptive.
It was because callisto is cruel. No other reason.
:> You HAVE to be kidding. You're reading so much into this,
:> and it appears to stem from some deep seated
:> preconception that Callisto was anything other than
:> deliberately hurtful.
: I admit I am reading quite a bit into a number of things and this one is
: probably a bit much. But I'm only doing this to throw out alternate
: possibilities than the obvious conclusions that are easy and convenient for
: people to arrive at.
If that's all you're doing, I don't want to have this
conversation. The obvious conclusions, in this case, are the right ones.
This is entertainment, not life, and MY version is a lot more
entertaining.
:> Sure there is. It hurts because it hurts, and they're
:> making it worse.
: Yes, but that's beside the point I was making that someone with very
: different thought processes than those you assume of Callisto would have
: behaved the same as the kind of person you assume Callisto to be.
You wanna untangle that sentence for me?
:> Callisto would have done what Callisto always does: revel
:> in it.
: This is what puzzles me somewhat. I admit I'm biased to liking Callisto.
: But a few people seem biased to disliking her beyond reason. Almost hating
: her. I'm not sure why Callisto gets such a harsh reaction out of some
: people. She does not much worse than what a lot of villains do, yet there
: is a special resentment of her. If she were thought to be merely insane, I
: doubt people would be more than mildly annoyed.
I don't hate Callisto, I just don't think that there is anything
good about any of her motives. I think she is driven by hatred,
selfishness, and pain, and nothing else matters until she's walked up to
Xena, said "Hello. My name is Callisto Montoya. You killed my family.
Prepare to die." and run her through.
: Callisto probably *would* have at least tried to revel in Gabby's pain, but
: I doubt it could have lasted. Eventually I think she would be affected,
: especially in such a personal situation.
She DID revel in it. Did you miss the big shit-eating grin? The
devilish laugh?
:>> That would have been something for them to have in
:>> common. Something for Callisto to relate to so that they
:>> could have a dialogue.
:>
:> If Callisto wanted a dialogue, she should have asked
:> about Gabby's pain, not caused her more. Talk about
:> shooting yourself in the foot.
: You're back to expecting Callisto to start such a dialogue as if she's
: already changed.
NO. No, no, no. As if she's RECEPTIVE to change.
:> Look, the reason they have Alcoholics Anonymous meetings
:> run by alcoholics is becuase you have to have been there
:> to be able to cure others and help them deal with it all.
:> You have to have that understanding. Xena has been in
:> Callisto's position, she knows how it feels and the kinds
:> of reactions that show a willingness to change. There was
:> nobody in a better position to know than Xena.
: The problem is that Callisto hasn't been in the same situations as Xena has
: because she's never had anyone help her. Xena showed things that could
: indicate a willingness to change when people like Lao Ma tried to help her.
: If Xena were to give helping Callisto her best shot, I'll bet she would soon
: see that there was hope for Callisto for the reasons you describe.
Unlike Xena, Callisto killed indiscriminantly. That made her too
dangerous to help in this manner.
:> Callisto was never willing to talk in such a way that it > would be worth
: talking back.
: Again, you seem to expect Callisto to say things like "Oh, I feel terrible
: about what I've done. Help me, Xena."
It's more about what I expect Callisto NOT to do, which is,
basicly, everything she DID do. If you're RECEPTIVE to help and change,
you aren't constantly needling people the way Callisto was. I'm not saying
she'd say things that were all fun-fun-sunshine-and-lollipops, but she
wouldn't be so verbally cruel, either.
:> Callisto takes great delight in the pain she causes
:> others, you have only to look at her girlishly gleeful
:> face when she does it to know that.
: Yes, so what? Who hasn't done that at some point?
Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water. The degree to which
Callisto does it cannot be tolerated. And saying that someone can't be
blamed for their actions because everybody does it is one of the logical
fallacies.
: Possibly she was in a few instances, but even if she wasn't, it doesn't
: matter. Someone could have tried to get her to that point.
Not worth the risk.
:> It looks more like she was trying to cause pain to others.
: Its not a matter of one or the other. It can be both.
Too much of one, not enough of the other.
:> Callisto was WAY out of chances, there is nothing that
:> could excuse all the atrocities she committed.
: I never said there was an excuse for atrocities. What I'm disputing is
: these "chances." What I see your idea of chances is is letting Callisto run
: her course and just observe whether she changes or not. If she does,
: great. If not, execute her. My only argument is that Xena should have
: tried to help Callisto--that those were the kind of chances she should have
: given her. Only if *those* kinds of chances failed could execution be seen
: as reasonable.
Nope, you don't see my point of view at all.
I'm saying that, when Callisto was GIVEN these chances, it was her
responsibility to TAKE them in an obvious manner. If she doesn't THEN
she's condemned herself.
:> And if the attempt is made, and it was, to try and talk
:> them down and they are unreceptive, they deserve
:> _nothing_.
: This is the real issue. I didn't see any real attempts. There weren't
: attempts to 'talk Callisto down.' It was more like "Are you coming down?
: No? Well, hurry up and jump, then, so we can get on with other things."
Close. More like, "Are you coming down? No? Well, hurry up and
jump then, so we don't have to worry about you killing more innocent
people. Try not to land on anyone on purpose on the way down."
:> To change, one first has to be willing to change.
:> Callisto wasn't willing.
: Perfectly true, but she might have *become* willing had she been given
: reasons to.
Sorry, no. What drove Callisto was revenge, and not getting it was
getting in the way or her changing. Callisto has to let go of her need for
revenge before she can change, and no one can do this for her.
lazarus
>
> Tsk tsk.. All this time and you STILL don't understand what I'm saying when I
> lay it right out for you?
why don't you calm down BDangelo, nobody is against you here.
> >> What we use to back up our opinion is TOTALLY FACTUAL
> >> AND OBVIOUS.
> >
> >Speak for yourself...you and Tarkd are not 1 entity. There were plenty
> >of his opinions I juggled with in the arguement with Tarkd, and there
> >were plenty of my opinions he juggled with...it's the nature of
> >argueing, opinions often get in the way.
>
> You seem to be the only one with several opinions on the argument. YOU back up
> your
> opinons with what you THINK is right and believe in, but WE back up our one
> main opinion with actual FACTS.
I can back up my opinions with facts. Give me an example of my
opinions, and I'll back it up with factual information...Hell, maybe
your right, maybe I did add in my opinions here, and there, but please,
your being way to vague, so vague that I have no way of putting an
arguement against you except by saying "I disagree with you" and thats
been a pretty redundant theme through this arguement...
> Facts are facts. And yet, you still disreguard
> the numerous FACTS we put right in your face.
I don't know, I can recall plenty of opinions I have shuffled with in
these arguements between you and TarkD.
> >> They're FACTS in real-life situations, they're FACTS from episodes
> >> of the show.
> >
> >I've used facts to counter his arguements, and he has done the same for
> >me. I don't see your point.
>
> Not really. Your arguement, and I've read it ALL, is pretty much all opinion
> and what you think is right.
It's the natural human opinion on whats right, naturally humans don't
like to die for something they didn't do, so it's the natural state of
humanity to reject a concept that serves exectution over something that
has not yet been done. Justice evolved from the natural human
conciousness of putting himself in the place of another, you can call
this opinion, but I just call it common sense...Justice isn't just
something somebody made up, it's as real as any other -mental concept-
of reality, like measurement, and time, it's all based on
mathematics...it's not just random.
> We tell you actual real facts that can't be
> ignored, and yet, YOU DO ignore them...
I have not ignored anything anybody has said in any of these arguements,
whether I thought they were relevent or not is another story. But if
your inclined to share the most important things I decided were
irrelevent, I'd like to hear them.
> >-Lazarus-
>
> If anything, the only reason I said what I said is because you sooo strongly
> disagree with our FACTS.
Give me an examples of -FACTS- that I disagree(d) with.
> That's what annoys me.
I can understand how somebody disagreeing with a fact can annoy
somebody, but I honestly don't think I am denying facts.
> I mean, we tell you facts, then
> you counter with opinion.
maybe you just think my opinions are not facts because I haven't
explained them in detail...the threads were long enough as it was, I
didn't want to lengthen them any further with details...
> If I did the same thing, then call me an idiot too,
> but I don't. I wouldn't say anything to back up myself UNLESS it was a fact,
> which I do.
>
> BD
Well, thats a great trait BD, focusing on facts rather then opinions is
a great attribute for somebody to have in an arguement; I'd love to hear
how I've dissapointed you in this area.
-Lazarus-
lazarus
>
> Gatsby -- aka Dave H. <hein...@rochester.rr.coms> wrote:
> : considered murder.
>
> Thing is, this is the Xenaverse we're talking about, not the US.
Truely we all have to evaluate -what- ww are argueing, are we argueing
in terms of -xenaverse justice- or -real life justice- or -justice in
general- I personaly am argueing what my mathematical conception of what
justice is, I am argueing -justice in general- , Tarkd and Bdangelo seem
to be argueing -xenaverse justice- and the great Gatsby seems to be
argueing -real life justice- we are butting heads because our concepts
of justice are all going in different directions. For the record in
terms of -xenaverse justice- what Xena did was fine and dandy, because
of the inferior systems of justice back then. In terms of -real life
justice- she would perobably be found guilty of murder, and might be put
in jail for half her life, or maybe even executed. In terms of my own
concept of justice Xena was guilty of murder, and would be shown how
what she did was wrong, and maybe imprisioned for 2 years...
> : Killing someone is only justifiable when there is
> : perceived imminent danger.
>
> And there was that from Callisto. She may not have been about to
> attack, but her reputation and god-status made her that dangerous.
I say: she was powerfull, and had a record of danger, not that she was
bound to be dangerous, just that there was a chance she might be
dangerous in the future.
> : As for your assertion that Callisto deserved it,
> : there is a little bit of good in her(Yin-Yang).
>
> What signs of this are there? When has Callisto ever shown
> anything that even remotely resembled compassion or some other "Light
> Side" enotion, hmm?
Well, Callisto started to open up to Gabrielle, but then slaughtered it
with the comment about perdicus, my only -guess- (thats right, my
opinion, not a fact) is that she was scared of anybody sympathizing with
her, because it would insult the greatness of her pain (in her mind
nobody could possibly understand what she is going through, any attampt
for anybody to try is seen as an offense), which she thrives off of as
the only reason for her to live.
> : Look at it this way:
> : Callisto's represented by an army of men, numbering 100. 99 of them are
> : murderer's, rapists, etc, and one of them is Jesus Christ, or Socrates, or
> : some noble person who was good. You have a choice: you can kill them all,
> : or none of them. Would you actually kill that one good person so you could
> : kill the other 99 evil ones?
>
> Yes.
I understand your mentailty (one great mans death to destroy a
megathreat is a sacrifice worth making), but at the same time, your
mentailty justifies the murder of an innocent man, if you just step
outside of yourself for a moment, and think about murdering an innocent
man you will realize how this system of justice is not justice. The
murdering of an innocent man is not optimal justice, at any scale, it's
an inferior form of justice.
> Consider this: How many people are going to get killed if
> those 100 people are left alive?
Think of how much good you will have destroyed
> Assume about ten apiece for the 99 "evil
> ones", though that's probably a conservative estimate considering how long
> a bandit's career _could_ be. So that 990 dead already.
Lets say bigfoot came out and ate them all, lets say Hera came down and
destroyed the universe, lets say hercules eats a potatoe...nobody can be
certain of whats going to happen in the future. A system of justice
that relies on guesses, and things is a system that is inferior
> Now consider how many people would die if, using your example,
> Christ were allowed to live. Well, there's Christ himself, who dies on the
> cross. There's all those Xtians tossed to the lions by the Romans. There's
> the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the abortion doctors killed by
> "religious right" snipers, etc... All because this "noble" character of
> yours has to go and create a splinter religion that grew out of control.
> _Countless_ people dead, all 'cuz of this one guy.
I hear what your saying, your system of justice is based on mental
hypothesis, and sure, that could work but it rots like an apple after
time, when you have a system of justice like that it easlity gets bent
out of shape. Lets say I don't like you, and you had a record of murder
in your past (but you changed), and then I killed you in cold blood just
because I didn't like you, and was taken into court I could say "he was
acting strange, as if he might be a menace to society, he had a history
of murder, and I was afraid he might kill more people, so I stopped him
for the greater good" and i walk away a free man...maybe now you can see
how a system based on guesses can be much worse then a system based on
facts. Since we are talking about the Callisto situation though, lets
not argue this, because it's just a whole nother arguement to get into,
and I am not willing to argue much longer...
> Now, if we were to execute those 100, we're guaranteed to save at
> least 990 people, which is good math in my book.
Your not -guaranteed- to save any people, imagine if you took them in,
and reformed all those people, and trained them to help society, you
could save/help roughly 1980 people (counting the ones who would have
been victims, and the ones that would potentially be saved anyhow), but
then again, thats just a guess, and I might be wrong, just like you
might be wrong...I personally don't think an optimal form of justice to
wiegh out Xenas crime against Callisto is one that punishes people for
things they haven't even done and is based on somebody making spir of
the moment guesses.
> Add in the potential dead
> from your "noble" meddler, and 100 lives to save all those others starts
> to look like a bargain.
> Of course, we could save another 100 lives on top of that if 99 of
> them weren't evil to begin with.
>
> ------------------
> The Totally Unofficial Loryn Locklin Fan Site
> http://members.tripod.com/~Tark_Davin/index.html
-La-
lazarus
>
> >> No, fool, and this is the part you seem to be completely ignoring,
> >> Callisto has DEMONSTRATED MANY TIMES that attempts to change her wouldn't
> >> work. She's out of chances to change, it's too late.
> >Um, there have been what, 6 episodes between XWP and HLJ w/ Callisto in
> >them. Not willing to change six times is not "many times." Xena surely in
> >her 10 years of being a warlord demonstrated more than 6 times that she
> >didn't want and couldn't change. Again, give ppl the same chances you were
> >given. If Xena had 6 chances, and about 2 years to change, which was how
> >long Callisto had and how many Callisto had, then it would be reasonable to
> >impose the same upon Callisto, but since Xena had 10 years worth of chances,
> >its not.
> >
>
> because she had 10 years doesn't mean anything.
Yeah it does, it means you lived ten years of not changing, therefore
everyday of those 10 years you did not to change, and coninued doing
what you where doing...and what you do -is- your responsiblity.
> People (like Herc) have to help
> her see that it's only right to change.
People (like Xena) have to -help- Callisto see that it's only right to
change. There was -very- little help Xena gave Callisto, and Xena had
alot more help then Callisto, she had Borias, Hercules, Gabrielle, and
Lao Ma; all of them willing to help her, and try to save her even though
she was evil.
> If anything, other people in her past
> just feared her and, I'd imagine, she'd like to see people cower before her.
> Just a guess, BUT an EDUCATED guess still...
>
> BD
Borias gave her chances, and Lao Ma gave her chances, Xena refused these
chances...I don't even recall Xena or Herc trying to help Casllisto at
all, the only time I recall anyone trying to help her is when Gabby sat
down and talked with her one night...Callisto did shut Gabby down, but
thats only natural...even Xena shut Lao Ma & Borias down when she tried
to help her.
-Lazarus-
lazarus
>
> You can not predict what people will do. If Callisto lived for several more
> episodes, assuming she acts like a real peron, she would have undoubtedly
> done something that none of us could expect. People's lives are not written
> down in stone, not predetermined; and if they are, no one knows how they are
> predetermined, so you can't say it's obvious. Of course, if Callisto's life
> was predetermined, it would be pointless to argue this argument and
> pointless 2 condemn her b/c she couldn't help it, but then again, we
> wouldn't have a choice, b/c our actions would be predetermined. Destiny is
> really a suck-ass concept, isn't it? Don't know about u, but I wouldn't
> want 2 live if I had a destiny, and if everything I did was predetermined --
> that's not a life to be valued.
there is no way for people to predict the future, thats certian, there
are ways to get a general idea of whats going to happen, but (you are
right) a general idea is not enough to determine an act of execution. I
personally believe people are predestined in that when you look back at
your past (which was ones your future) it is unchangable, so logicaly
speaking, your future is unchangable also, but all that really means is
that your going to do what your going to do and when your finished doing
it your going to realize that it's out of your hands...thats an entirely
different dicussion though...
lazarus
everything I had felt about that lousy apology...I hope to read more of
you, you are good at explaining how I feel, at least in this subject. I
was actually very impressed with your description.
-lazarus-
Lilith
> I personally believe people are predestined in that when you
> look back at your past (which was ones your future) it is
> unchangable, so logicaly speaking, your future is unchangable
> also...
I answer that, Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands,
prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain.
In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without
judgment; as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack
knowledge.
And some act from judgment, but not a free judgment; as brute animals. For the
sheep, seeing the wolf, judges it a thing to be shunned, from a natural and not
a free judgment, because it judges, not from reason, but from natural instinct.
And the same thing is to be said of any judgment of brute animals.
But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that
something should be avoided or sought.
But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a
natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he
acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various
things. For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see
in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments.
Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the
judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one.
And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will.
Lil
† ><((((º>
blind_...@mindspring.com
lazarus wrote in message <37094A...@yahoo.com>...
AITST spoiler
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>People (like Xena) have to -help- Callisto see that it's only right to
>change. There was -very- little help Xena gave Callisto, and Xena
and Lao Ma; all of them willing to help her, and try to save >her even
though
>she was evil.
>
Laz, DISAPPOINTED!!!
You left out the best example ...... Cyane.
Out of gratitude of Cyane and her tribes noble effort to reform her, Xena
killed 'em all.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> Facts are facts. And yet, you still disreguard
:> the numerous FACTS we put right in your face.
: I don't know, I can recall plenty of opinions I have shuffled with in
: these arguements between you and TarkD.
But no FACTS, and that's the point.
:> Not really. Your arguement, and I've read it ALL, is pretty much all opinion
:> and what you think is right.
: It's the natural human opinion on whats right, naturally humans don't
: like to die for something they didn't do, so it's the natural state of
: humanity to reject a concept that serves exectution over something that
: has not yet been done.
Are you kidding? There's no such thing as a "natural human
opinion". And, using historical precedent, I can prove to you that people
have been executed since the dawn of time for that very reason. Of course,
like Callisto, none of those people were innocent to begin with, they
usually had a criminal record from before, but they were executed to serve
as an example to the citizens and to prevent them from ever doing it
again.
: Justice evolved from the natural human
: conciousness of putting himself in the place of another, you can call
: this opinion, but I just call it common sense...Justice isn't just
: something somebody made up, it's as real as any other -mental concept-
: of reality, like measurement, and time, it's all based on
: mathematics...it's not just random.
Justice is most certainly NOT some nebulous thing as you suggest.
Justice is the application of LAW, not some human abstraction. There is no
universal justice, there are so many different laws and penalties and
attitudes towards justice the world over that you cannot even BEGIN to say
that there is such a thing as justice that is common to all humans.
One country believes in the death penalty, one doesn't. One
country believes in corporal punishment, one doesn't. One country says
innocent until proven guilty, one says guilty until proven innocent.
Courts are run differently in ever country, punishment handed out in
different ways to different degrees...nobody handles justice the same way
as anybody else. It all comes down to the values of the people who live in
the country and those who make the laws.
The only common theme that all justice systems seem to have is the
idea that the greatest number of people have to be protected from the
greatest threats.
:> We tell you actual real facts that can't be
:> ignored, and yet, YOU DO ignore them...
: I have not ignored anything anybody has said in any of these arguements,
: whether I thought they were relevent or not is another story. But if
: your inclined to share the most important things I decided were
: irrelevent, I'd like to hear them.
How about this biggie: You are faced with a choice, right here and
right now. That choice is to either allow someone who has already proven
themselves a killer to go free and possibly kill again, or to kill them
now to prevent them from ever killing again.
No other choices are possible. If this person is let go, you
cannot follow them (they will evade you), you cannot stop them from
killing if they choose to do so.
Are you going to trust them to NOT kill again even though you have
no way of knowing if they will or not? Which of those choices protects the
greatest number of people FOR SURE?
You see, this is a VERY relevent question, one that you have never
actually ANSWERED, except with evasions. You see, the way I see it, you're
right, WE DON'T KNOW whether or not Callisto has decided not to kill
again. But we do know that she HAS, and the people she killed didn't
deserve it, nor were they her enemies. She killed them either to frame
Xena, or to make Xena hurt. She hasn't given any indication that she would
or wouldn't kill again for the same purpose.
What we do KNOW, is that Callisto has killed a lot of people.
She's proven she's capable of doing it and that she doesn't care about
those she hurts. We know that if she is let go she COULD kill again. We
know that, as a god, she cannot be contained.
So, conclusion, Callisto is a BIG gamble, and the stakes are the
lives of innocent people. And simply because we DON'T KNOW whether she'll
kill again, YOU think she should be let go. YOU are willing to risk the
lives of those people,, simply because you can't look at the past, see
what COULD happen, and take the only action possible to prevent it.
You can destroy ONE life FOR SURE, or RISK having SEVERAL lives
taken (or possibly not taken). Do you honestly believe that those lives
are worth risking because you think you can save ONE person's sanity? Do
you think the people at risk, if they knew they were at risk, would think
that Callisto was worth it? What about their families?
It seems that you haven't looked at the problem in this way. It
seems that you are clinging to keeping Callisto alive so tightly that you
are blinded to the fact that, if you are wrong about Callisto's ability to
change, then lots of people, innocent people, will die for your mistake.
And yet, you still insist that Callisto should NOT die. It seems to me
that YOU are the one who doesn't value human life, because you aren't
willing to make the hard choices when it comes to ensuring security and
safety for the most people.
Respond, please, irrelevent or not, to this concept. Explain, in
detail, when you would do if given the choice listed above, and why,
without making up choices that weren't given. Then maybe you'll be a
little closer to seeing MY perspective.
:> If anything, the only reason I said what I said is because you sooo strongly
:> disagree with our FACTS.
: Give me an examples of -FACTS- that I disagree(d) with.
Well, you've often disagreed with the FACT that Callisto has
killed just to frame Xena. The very first episode, Callisto is razing a
village and claiming to be Xena so that people will blame Xena and attack
her, getting Callisto her revenge.
When this was brought up, you denied it.
You're disagreeing with the FACT that not everyone considers
execution to be wrong. You're acting like EVERYBODY thinks that killing is
wrong in EVERY situation except self-defense. This is provably not true.
You state, as though it were FACT, that HUMAN NATURE tells us that
killing is wrong, yet killing is one of the many things that keeps us
alive, in fact KEPT us alive long enough to evolve into what we are now.
That is historical FACT, and scientific FACT, yet you deny it's truth.
:> That's what annoys me.
: I can understand how somebody disagreeing with a fact can annoy
: somebody, but I honestly don't think I am denying facts.
You are, constantly. Your beliefs blind you to the real world.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be kind of interesting if everyone believed
killing was wrong...but they don't.
:> I mean, we tell you facts, then
:> you counter with opinion.
: maybe you just think my opinions are not facts because I haven't
: explained them in detail...the threads were long enough as it was, I
: didn't want to lengthen them any further with details...
Or maybe your opinions can't be expressed as facts...
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: Well, you STILL don't seem to get it: THIS IS NOT OUR WORLD. THIS IS NOT OUR
: COURT SYSTEM. THERE ARE NO REAL GODS. You think a person as powerful as
: Callisto would be let roam around in ANY world? Umm, DOUBTFUL. It's like (in
: today's world) letting a person run around with an atom bomb. What would that
: person do with it? They COULD just sit on it. Or they could kill TONS of
: people. They may be good, they may be bad. WOuld it really matter? NO FRIGGIN'
: WAY. Same for Callisto... And don't respond to this with an OPINION, please?
: You KNOW, in this case, what I say IS true, just admit it...
BINGO! This is it EXACTLY. Callisto has too much power for a
single person to wield and, instead of waiting in tewrror for her to pull
the trigger on that power, she has to be STOPPED. That power has to be
removed so that people may sleep well in relative security instead of
looking over their shoulders all the time waiting for the other shoe to
drop.
Since Callisto couldn't be contained, she had to be killed. If she
could have been neutralized without killing her, she probably would have
been. But she couldn't and she wasn't. End of story.
:>maybe you just think my opinions are not facts because I haven't
:>explained them in detail...the threads were long enough as it was, I
:>didn't want to lengthen them any further with details...
: No, they ARE opinions. Example: Callisto could have changed, Xena should have
: helped Callisto, Callisto needed love, etc.
Yeah, there's nothing to back this up in the series whatsoever.
This is Lazarus's opinion on the psyche of a character who never has her
psyche examined during the course of the show. All we have to go on is
what we SAW, and we SAW Callisto being evil and unreceptive to talk. If
there was more to her than that, it was well hidden.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: Truely we all have to evaluate -what- ww are argueing, are we argueing
: in terms of -xenaverse justice- or -real life justice- or -justice in
: general- I personaly am argueing what my mathematical conception of what
: justice is, I am argueing -justice in general- , Tarkd and Bdangelo seem
: to be argueing -xenaverse justice- and the great Gatsby seems to be
: argueing -real life justice- we are butting heads because our concepts
: of justice are all going in different directions. For the record in
: terms of -xenaverse justice- what Xena did was fine and dandy, because
: of the inferior systems of justice back then.
Well, since this case takes place in the Xenaverse, it only makes
sense that Xenaverse justice prevails over this argument. Xena didn't
murder Callisto according to the laws of the Xenaverse, thus XENA DIDN'T
MURDER CALLISTO. Plain and simple.
You don't tell foreigners that they can't arrest you because what
you did isn't illegal in your own country, not without looking like a
fool and possibly being made an example of. Similarly, you don't try to
apply otherworldy justice to a show that doesn't take palce in that
world...
:> And there was that from Callisto. She may not have been about to
:> attack, but her reputation and god-status made her that dangerous.
: I say: she was powerfull, and had a record of danger, not that she was
: bound to be dangerous, just that there was a chance she might be
: dangerous in the future.
I've said this myself. I've also further elaborated that this
chance of her being dangerous in the future makes her a poor risk and, for
the good of the people she MIGHT be dangerous to (who will almost
certainly outnumber her) Callisto has to die to keep them safe. On person
dies so that many may live. Not just live, but live without fear.
This is good math, good statistics. It preserves the peace and
punishes a known wrong-doer. What part of that make killing Callisto not
at least the lesser of two evils?
:> What signs of this are there? When has Callisto ever shown
:> anything that even remotely resembled compassion or some other "Light
:> Side" enotion, hmm?
: Well, Callisto started to open up to Gabrielle, but then slaughtered it
: with the comment about perdicus, my only -guess- (thats right, my
: opinion, not a fact) is that she was scared of anybody sympathizing with
: her, because it would insult the greatness of her pain (in her mind
: nobody could possibly understand what she is going through, any attampt
: for anybody to try is seen as an offense), which she thrives off of as
: the only reason for her to live.
Unfortunately, this says nothing about whether or not she'd kill
again before she reformed her ways. People are still at risk from her, and
she cannot be neutralized without killing her. The choice is clear, she
has to die to protect the greater good.
:> : Look at it this way:
:> : Callisto's represented by an army of men, numbering 100. 99 of them are
:> : murderer's, rapists, etc, and one of them is Jesus Christ, or Socrates, or
:> : some noble person who was good. You have a choice: you can kill them all,
:> : or none of them. Would you actually kill that one good person so you could
:> : kill the other 99 evil ones?
:>
:> Yes.
: I understand your mentailty (one great mans death to destroy a
: megathreat is a sacrifice worth making), but at the same time, your
: mentailty justifies the murder of an innocent man, if you just step
: outside of yourself for a moment, and think about murdering an innocent
: man you will realize how this system of justice is not justice. The
: murdering of an innocent man is not optimal justice, at any scale, it's
: an inferior form of justice.
Well what would YOU suggest, keeping in mind that I won't accept
any solution that doesn't protect the people who would die at the hands of
the 99 evil ones...?
:> Consider this: How many people are going to get killed if
:> those 100 people are left alive?
: Think of how much good you will have destroyed
Not very much, by my estimate.
:> Assume about ten apiece for the 99 "evil
:> ones", though that's probably a conservative estimate considering how long
:> a bandit's career _could_ be. So that 990 dead already.
: Lets say bigfoot came out and ate them all, lets say Hera came down and
: destroyed the universe, lets say hercules eats a potatoe...nobody can be
: certain of whats going to happen in the future. A system of justice
: that relies on guesses, and things is a system that is inferior
We're not talking about a system of justice, we're talking
hypothetical situations. Look at the problem you presented me with: 99
evil guys and 1 good guy. Somehow I have to know that the one good guy IS
good and the 99 bad guys ARE bad to make this decision. But you've just
turned the problem around to say that now I have to kill 100 people
without first knowing what they would do.
This isn't even close to the situation with Callisto. With
Callisto, we have a KNOWN KILLER, who kills not for any reason other than
to antagonize Xena. We can extrapolate from her past actions what she is
likely to do later.
If this is the case with the 100 guys, where we know their pasts
and can know that they have killed and would probably do so again with the
right motivation...that's different. And the one "noble" guy? Well, unless
he saves more lives than the other 99 take, I say throw him to the wolves,
too. Less suffering is less suffering, if one man has to die by mistake or
for the wrong reasons to bring about a greater good, I'm all for it.
Sure, the ends don't justify the means, usually, but I really
don't care. I'd rather see the most good done for the most people than
have evil done in the name of saving one man.
:> Now consider how many people would die if, using your example,
:> Christ were allowed to live. Well, there's Christ himself, who dies on the
:> cross. There's all those Xtians tossed to the lions by the Romans. There's
:> the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the abortion doctors killed by
:> "religious right" snipers, etc... All because this "noble" character of
:> yours has to go and create a splinter religion that grew out of control.
:> _Countless_ people dead, all 'cuz of this one guy.
: I hear what your saying, your system of justice is based on mental
: hypothesis, and sure, that could work but it rots like an apple after
: time, when you have a system of justice like that it easlity gets bent
: out of shape. Lets say I don't like you, and you had a record of murder
: in your past (but you changed), and then I killed you in cold blood just
: because I didn't like you,
Hold up. Callisto wasn't killed because she was acting STRANGE,
she was killed because she HADN'T changed. Continue:
: and was taken into court I could say "he was
: acting strange, as if he might be a menace to society, he had a history
: of murder, and I was afraid he might kill more people, so I stopped him
: for the greater good" and i walk away a free man...
But, again, this isn't the case with Callisto. For one, there WAS
no court to take either Xena or Callisto to after the fact. For another,
it was more or less now or never. When would Xena ever have such a good
shot with the Hind's Blood Dagger ever again? How would she catch Callisto
to use it if it became necessary? For last, Xena had changed and people
knew it. Callisto hadn't changed and people could see that as well. Your
hypothetical situation doesn't fit the real one in enough of the relevent
points to be a fair comparison.
You sound as though this case were to be tried in the real world,
this case against Xena for killing Callisto. But in the Xenaverse, this
case would never see a trial. People were often on their own for justice,
unless they were in a town with a court. When you have to make your own
justice, you are answerable only to your own conscience...and the families
of those who you kill, of course. Xena's conscience said thta Callisto had
had way too many chances already and it was time to end her once and for
all. I happen to agree.
You've also taken my take on the situation and my idea of justice
and applied it to a concept that doesn't fit that mold. What I've been
discussing is what to do in a VERY SPECIFIC situation, the one with
Callisto in it. How often do you think it's going to come up when you have
a GOD, with a history of violent acts, with no regard for life, who is a
potential danger to society at large, who was very possiblky insane or at
least unbalanced, who couldn't be contained, who was in a position to be
killed by the only weapon that could do it, and being killed was the only
way to neutralize the danger she represented that allowed no innocents to
be risked? My solution, my idea of why Xena was justified in killing
Callisto only applies to THAT situation. You've tried to apply my
reasoning to a situation with a mortal (who CAN be contained and killed
with normal weapons) who has proven themselves to no longer be unbalanced,
who is trying to atone for their deeds, who may have had an off day and
acted a little funny, who was killed by another person who feared them.
This is not the same situation and I wouldn't even TRY to apply the
Xena/Callisto solution to it.
:> Now, if we were to execute those 100, we're guaranteed to save at
:> least 990 people, which is good math in my book.
: Your not -guaranteed- to save any people, imagine if you took them in,
: and reformed all those people, and trained them to help society, you
: could save/help roughly 1980 people (counting the ones who would have
: been victims, and the ones that would potentially be saved anyhow), but
: then again, thats just a guess, and I might be wrong, just like you
: might be wrong...I personally don't think an optimal form of justice to
: wiegh out Xenas crime against Callisto is one that punishes people for
: things they haven't even done and is based on somebody making spir of
: the moment guesses.
Justice is served only when the most people are protected from the
most harm. Nothing else will do.
Then again, justice is also only served with a side order of peas,
please pass the salt. ;)
BDangelico
>> because she had 10 years doesn't mean anything.
>
>Yeah it does, it means you lived ten years of not changing, therefore
>everyday of those 10 years you did not to change, and coninued doing
>what you where doing...and what you do -is- your responsiblity.
>
WHAT did you just say? "and what you do -is- your responsibilty??? AND YET,
when talking about Callisto, you say it's Xena's responsibility to help
Callisto change... Hmm, contradicting yourself on such a big subject... I
always thought it was ALL Callisto's fault for what she became, and that only
SHE could change herself. Herc, Borias, and all those others could only do so
much for Xena, the rest, it seemed, was done by her. I just saw "The Gauntlet"
today. Herc tries to help, Xena runs off refusing, but later shows up and helps
them fight in the village. So it seems Xena finally made the decision to turn
good on her own....
>> People (like Herc) have to help
>> her see that it's only right to change.
>
>People (like Xena) have to -help- Callisto see that it's only right to
>change. There was -very- little help Xena gave Callisto, and Xena had
>alot more help then Callisto, she had Borias, Hercules, Gabrielle, and
>Lao Ma; all of them willing to help her, and try to save her even though
>she was evil.
Hmm, interesting.. In the same post you said what you do is your own
responsibilty, then you say it's other people's responsibility to help you.. SO
which is it?
>Borias gave her chances, and Lao Ma gave her chances, Xena refused these
>chances...I don't even recall Xena or Herc trying to help Casllisto at
>all, the only time I recall anyone trying to help her is when Gabby sat
>down and talked with her one night...Callisto did shut Gabby down, but
>thats only natural...even Xena shut Lao Ma & Borias down when she tried
>to help her.
>
>-Lazarus-
></PRE></HTML>
Herc really didn't do much for Xena, actually. It SEEMS more like Xena made her
own choices, like I said before. Again, its JUST A GUESS, but an educated guess
from watching what happened in "The Gauntlet"....
BD
BDangelico
>>
>> Gatsby -- aka Dave H. <hein...@rochester.rr.coms> wrote:
>> : Um, it was MURDER. If a similar thing went to court in the US, it would
>be
>> : considered murder.
>>
>> Thing is, this is the Xenaverse we're talking about, not the US.
>
>Truely we all have to evaluate -what- ww are argueing, are we argueing
>in terms of -xenaverse justice- or -real life justice- or -justice in
>general- I personaly am argueing what my mathematical conception of what
>justice is, I am argueing -justice in general- , Tarkd and Bdangelo seem
>to be argueing -xenaverse justice- and the great Gatsby seems to be
>argueing -real life justice- we are butting heads because our concepts
>of justice are all going in different directions. For the record in
>terms of -xenaverse justice- what Xena did was fine and dandy, because
>of the inferior systems of justice back then. In terms of -real life
>justice- she would perobably be found guilty of murder, and might be put
>in jail for half her life, or maybe even executed. In terms of my own
>concept of justice Xena was guilty of murder, and would be shown how
>what she did was wrong, and maybe imprisioned for 2 years...
>
>
Xena's world's justice! It doesn't make SENSE to argue then! Ya see, Xena's
world is fictional, and Callisto is a GOD, so stating your opinions thinking in
terms of today's justice or justice in general just nullifies your arguement.
Just like you can't compare a trial today to a trial in the dark ages.
EVERYTHING'S DIFFERENT. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING? Please say you do..
BD
.>> : Killing someone is only justifiable when there is
BDangelico
>>
>> Tsk tsk.. All this time and you STILL don't understand what I'm saying when
>I
>> lay it right out for you?
>
>why don't you calm down BDangelo, nobody is against you here.
Did I seem very mad? I was just saying the obvious... And I thought, in every
debate, arguement, whatever, some people are against some people...isn't that
the point of a debate, arguement, whatever...?
>> >> What we use to back up our opinion is TOTALLY FACTUAL
>> >> AND OBVIOUS.
>> >
>> >Speak for yourself...you and Tarkd are not 1 entity. There were plenty
>> >of his opinions I juggled with in the arguement with Tarkd, and there
>> >were plenty of my opinions he juggled with...it's the nature of
>> >argueing, opinions often get in the way.
>>
>> You seem to be the only one with several opinions on the argument. YOU back
>up
>> your
>> opinons with what you THINK is right and believe in, but WE back up our one
>> main opinion with actual FACTS.
>
>I can back up my opinions with facts. Give me an example of my
>opinions, and I'll back it up with factual information...Hell, maybe
>your right, maybe I did add in my opinions here, and there, but please,
>your being way to vague, so vague that I have no way of putting an
>arguement against you except by saying "I disagree with you" and thats
>been a pretty redundant theme through this arguement...
>
>
You say you think Xena owes it to Callisto to try and help her, that Callisto
could have changed, that Callisto really had feelings, she wanted and needed
love, etc. All opinions, all seem untrue. She says in Return of Callisto how
she feels about love, if you remember. you've also contradicted yourself by
saying Xena owes it to Callisto to help her, and then saying it's your
responsibilty to make decisions yourself.
>> Facts are facts. And yet, you still disreguard
>> the numerous FACTS we put right in your face.
>
>I don't know, I can recall plenty of opinions I have shuffled with in
>these arguements between you and TarkD.
I haven't had any opinions, really, except for the main one: Xena DID NOT
murder Callisto and she deserved to die. I say facts to back it up, as proved
by watching the show. Read past posts if you don't remember....
>> >> They're FACTS in real-life situations, they're FACTS from episodes
>> >> of the show.
>> >
>> >I've used facts to counter his arguements, and he has done the same for
>> >me. I don't see your point.
>>
>> Not really. Your arguement, and I've read it ALL, is pretty much all
>opinion
>> and what you think is right.
>
>It's the natural human opinion on whats right, naturally humans don't
>like to die for something they didn't do, so it's the natural state of
>humanity to reject a concept that serves exectution over something that
>has not yet been done. Justice evolved from the natural human
>conciousness of putting himself in the place of another, you can call
>this opinion, but I just call it common sense...Justice isn't just
>something somebody made up, it's as real as any other -mental concept-
>of reality, like measurement, and time, it's all based on
>mathematics...it's not just random.
But, like I said, you try to disprove our facts with your strong opinions. You
don't think Callisto deserved to die, but there really arent any facts out
there you could possibly even use to prove that. On the other hand, there are
MANY facts from the show I can use to prove Callisto DID deserve to die, and
I've probly already said them 1000000 times...
>> We tell you actual real facts that can't be
>> ignored, and yet, YOU DO ignore them...
>
>I have not ignored anything anybody has said in any of these arguements,
>whether I thought they were relevent or not is another story. But if
>your inclined to share the most important things I decided were
>irrelevent, I'd like to hear them.
>
Well, you STILL don't seem to get it: THIS IS NOT OUR WORLD. THIS IS NOT OUR
COURT SYSTEM. THERE ARE NO REAL GODS. You think a person as powerful as
Callisto would be let roam around in ANY world? Umm, DOUBTFUL. It's like (in
today's world) letting a person run around with an atom bomb. What would that
person do with it? They COULD just sit on it. Or they could kill TONS of
people. They may be good, they may be bad. WOuld it really matter? NO FRIGGIN'
WAY. Same for Callisto... And don't respond to this with an OPINION, please?
You KNOW, in this case, what I say IS true, just admit it...
>> >-Lazarus-
>>
>> If anything, the only reason I said what I said is because you sooo
>strongly
>> disagree with our FACTS.
>
>Give me an examples of -FACTS- that I disagree(d) with.
I have....a jabillion times
>
>> That's what annoys me.
>
>I can understand how somebody disagreeing with a fact can annoy
>somebody, but I honestly don't think I am denying facts.
>
Maybe not 'denying' but definitely disreguarding..
>> I mean, we tell you facts, then
>> you counter with opinion.
>
>maybe you just think my opinions are not facts because I haven't
>explained them in detail...the threads were long enough as it was, I
>didn't want to lengthen them any further with details...
No, they ARE opinions. Example: Callisto could have changed, Xena should have
helped Callisto, Callisto needed love, etc.
>
>> If I did the same thing, then call me an idiot too,
>> but I don't. I wouldn't say anything to back up myself UNLESS it was a
>fact,
>> which I do.
>>
>> BD
>
>Well, thats a great trait BD, focusing on facts rather then opinions is
>a great attribute for somebody to have in an arguement; I'd love to hear
>how I've dissapointed you in this area.
>
>-Lazarus-
Disappointed? No. Angered? Maybe a little. Basing practically your whole
argguement on opinion IS annoying...
></PRE></HTML>
Czaeryth
BDangelico <bdang...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990401201820...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
> Quick question: In Sacrifice II, if, after Gabrielle supposedly died, ARES
had
> said something along the lines of what Callisto had said and started
laughing,
> do you think Xena would have turned around and killed Ares like she had
killed
> Callisto? Because most of you people who think Xena MURDERED CALLISTO IN
COLD
> BLOOD TO MAKE HERSELF FEEL BETTER make it sound like Xena killed Callisto
just
> because she was taunting Xena about Gabrielle's death, right? From what
I've
> read, it sounds like a 'YES.' But I disagree. Xena didn't kill Callisto
just be
> cuz she was saying ha-ha your friend died, Xena killed her because she
knew she
> DESERVED to die. That's it.
>
> BD
I don't know who deserves to die. Anyone who claims to know who deserves to
die probably has questionable ethics themselves.
- CZ
Czaeryth
It wasn't Xena who killed Callisto! No! It was the old, "evil" Xena.
Yeah!
Whatever.
More evidence to demonstrate that my theory (the one that claims Xena never
really changed) might still possibly be right. Does it really matter if I'm
right? Nope. The series is decent regardless of who labels who "good" and
"evil." The accuser is very easily also the hypocrite.
- CZ
Rubicant
>
> >BDangelico wrote:
> >>
> >> Tsk tsk.. All this time and you STILL don't understand what I'm saying when
> >I
> >> lay it right out for you?
> >
> >why don't you calm down BDangelo, nobody is against you here.
>
> Did I seem very mad? I was just saying the obvious...
When you started saying things like "tsk tsk" I knew you were begining
to get frustrated.
> And I thought, in every
> debate, arguement, whatever, some people are against some people...isn't that
> the point of a debate, arguement, whatever...?
I don't believe that debating is about being "against" the other person.
> >I can back up my opinions with facts. Give me an example of my
> >opinions, and I'll back it up with factual information...Hell, maybe
> >your right, maybe I did add in my opinions here, and there, but please,
> >your being way to vague, so vague that I have no way of putting an
> >arguement against you except by saying "I disagree with you" and thats
> >been a pretty redundant theme through this arguement...
> >
> >
> You say you think Xena owes it to Callisto to try and help her
I believe that if Xena can justify the fact that she is still alive
right now, and not dead (from somebody killing her because they thought
she was unchangable as a warlord), then she can't justify killing
Callisto. How do I believe this? Xena had truck loads of time to
change, and various people who were on her side helping her change
throughout the years, whereas Callisto barely had any help from anyone,
everyone seemed to have given up before even trying.
I consider Xenas justice to be a little out of balance because of this,
also the fact that Xena -was- responsible for Cirra (we can't even
debate this, because Xena has excepted the responsiblity regardless if
you like it or not, Xena -was- responsible for Cirra) and therefore Xena
-was- responsible for Callistos familly, friends, and town being burned
away.
Among all of this, I think Xena owes it to Callisto to at least give a
-sporting- try to help Callisto through talking with her...hey, it
couldn't hurt.
> that Callisto
> could have changed, that Callisto really had feelings, she wanted and needed
> love, etc.
Callisto was definitely fighting for justice, she just has a different
way of going about things. This was not only implied, but directly
stated on the show. She even stated that she was "misunderstood" which
is obvious. It was also implied that she was an average normal village
girl who loved her familly. The fact that she loved her familly goes to
show us that it is possible for Callisto to love, and not hate. If you
think about it, the whole reason Callisto started maiming people was in
vengence of her parents death, it's obvious she feels the world is
guilty for letting her parents die, especially Xena. Now lets think:
Why would Callisto blame the world for her parents death, and not just
Xena? Do you have any ideas?
A logical explaination I can think of is that: she believes that if the
world can -let- somebody with such a hideuos past as Xenas make amends
(and put her past behind her), the world must not have been intorducced
to the Xena Callisto remembers. If the world can justify Xena being
free of her past, they must not know (all the pain Xena has caused in
her wake), or they must be stupid, or evil enough to justify such an
act. It's all subconcious, I know none of this is *fact* but it
certainly fits fine in my opinion, and is a possible scenerio for whats
going on in Callisto mind.
> All opinions, all seem untrue.
That Xena owed it to Callisto to change, I consider to be fact, but that
Callisto could have changed, I consider to be an opinion, and wouldn't
argue otherwise.
> She says in Return of Callisto how
> she feels about love, if you remember. you've also contradicted yourself by
> saying Xena owes it to Callisto to help her, and then saying it's your
> responsibilty to make decisions yourself.
I don't consider that to be a contradiction at all, why can't both
scenarios coexist at the same time? Xena owes it to Callisto to *try*
to help her change, but at the same time Callisto actions are still
Callistos responsiblity. I don't exactly consider it Xenas
responsiblity *to* change Callisto, just to give it a really good
sporting try.
> >> Facts are facts. And yet, you still disreguard
> >> the numerous FACTS we put right in your face.
> >
> >I don't know, I can recall plenty of opinions I have shuffled with in
> >these arguements between you and TarkD.
>
> I haven't had any opinions, really, except for the main one: Xena DID NOT
> murder Callisto and she deserved to die. I say facts to back it up, as proved
> by watching the show. Read past posts if you don't remember....
sorry, I'm too lazy, I'm sure I could find some great arguements, but I
honestly don't care enough.
> >> Not really. Your arguement, and I've read it ALL, is pretty much all
> >opinion
> >> and what you think is right.
> >
> >It's the natural human opinion on whats right, naturally humans don't
> >like to die for something they didn't do, so it's the natural state of
> >humanity to reject a concept that serves exectution over something that
> >has not yet been done. Justice evolved from the natural human
> >conciousness of putting himself in the place of another, you can call
> >this opinion, but I just call it common sense...Justice isn't just
> >something somebody made up, it's as real as any other -mental concept-
> >of reality, like measurement, and time, it's all based on
> >mathematics...it's not just random.
>
> But, like I said, you try to disprove our facts with your strong opinions.
these are not opinions...the fact that 4 + 4 = 8 is not an opinion, it's
a mathematical concept of our physical world, just like justice is a
mathematical concept of our physical world.
> You
> don't think Callisto deserved to die, but there really arent any facts out
> there you could possibly even use to prove that.
I don't think Callisto deserved to die the way she did, though at the
same time I do believe she was asking for it, and deserved to die
eventually...that is *ASSUMING* she were to contiue on the way she was,
being a menace.
> On the other hand, there are
> MANY facts from the show I can use to prove Callisto DID deserve to die, and
> I've probly already said them 1000000 times...
I especially don't think Callisto deserved to die at the hand Xena, that
is, I don't believe Xena had the right to kill her.
> >> We tell you actual real facts that can't be
> >> ignored, and yet, YOU DO ignore them...
> >
> >I have not ignored anything anybody has said in any of these arguements,
> >whether I thought they were relevent or not is another story. But if
> >your inclined to share the most important things I decided were
> >irrelevent, I'd like to hear them.
> >
>
> Well, you STILL don't seem to get it: THIS IS NOT OUR WORLD. THIS IS NOT OUR
> COURT SYSTEM. THERE ARE NO REAL GODS. You think a person as powerful as
> Callisto would be let roam around in ANY world? Umm, DOUBTFUL.
Now you are taking your end of the arguement into the fantasy realm of
the xenaverse, which is a cowardly thing to do in an arguement, because
the instant we base ourselves on the laws of the xenaverse (which are
the laws of fantasy) everything turns upsidedown, and this arguement
will have no weight because we are argueing fantasy elements. I though,
refuse to go there, because anyone of us could say: hey why didn't Xena
just go back in time and stop Cirra from being destroyed or something
stupid, and crazy like that, and I'm not going there...I'm not argueing
whether mickey mouse could hop onto the screen and dance for Callisto.
I am argueing basic laws of justice, and whether what Xena did can be
justified from these basic rational concepts, our system of justice
today is closest to the optimal form of justice (at least closer then
the Xenaverse), so if anything we should argue the Xena facts in
nowadays reality form of justice. We are talking about justice. By law
of basic Justice one should not be executed for a crime they did not
commit, end of story.
> It's like (in
> today's world) letting a person run around with an atom bomb. What would that
> person do with it?
It's hardly an atomic bomb, it's more like somebody walking around
strapped with weapons, and grenades and stuff.
> They COULD just sit on it. Or they could kill TONS of
> people. They may be good, they may be bad. WOuld it really matter? NO FRIGGIN'
> WAY. Same for Callisto... And don't respond to this with an OPINION, please?
> You KNOW, in this case, what I say IS true, just admit it...
You are absoloutely right, but bending the laws of justice is not the
answer. If we bend justice around into silly putty that will *not* be
for the greater good, because it will cause alot more havok then
anything Callisto could dish out.
-Rubicant- (Lazarus)
A. Walkling-Ribeiro
Lazarus schrieb:
>
> BDangelico wrote:
> >
> > Well said tarkd. Im getting tired of reading those dumbass posts by Lazarus.
>
> Well, too bad, my dumbass posts are here to stay.
>
> > Its really not even about opinion. Tarkd (and others) tell them all the facts,
> > in real life and in the show, yet they refuse to understand factual
> > information.
>
> Well, if opinions are factual information I guess pigs can fly.
And what for heaven's sake is that bad about opinions? As likings,
they're quite normal among human beings. I like Cally more than Xena
more than Gabby more than Joxer. So what?
Comparably I do have second thoughts about Cally being killed that way
by Xena, as I have about Joxer's treatment by X&G. Again - so what? You
could hardly mean me to subjugate my opinions just because in this
specific fiction someone has another perception of the plot. The same
applies to Lazarus, I think.
Neither of you owns the stone (chalice, ring, whatever) of eternal
wisdom, do you? So you should try avoiding getting that polemic like
"...tired of reading those dumbass posts...". That neither furthers the
discussion nor brings in facticity. It probably endeavours you to some
killfiles, that's all. (Didn't mean to lecture, but this thread really
disturbes me)
<Snip>
Regards, Alex.
--
"Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't
ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight."
(MTG, Black Knight)
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: When you started saying things like "tsk tsk" I knew you were begining
: to get frustrated.
"tsk tsk" is more of a "you naughty boy" kind of expresiion rather
than and "ERGH!" sorta thing. Where have you been?
: Callisto was definitely fighting for justice, she just has a different
: way of going about things.
Justice and revenge are NOT the same thing. Callisto wanted
_revenge_ against Xena, and she believed that was justice but it isn't.
Justice is about protecting people and providing security, revenge is
about spanking someone for something they've done. Sometimes justice has
the effect of getting revenge, but it doesn't HAVE to.
:> All opinions, all seem untrue.
: That Xena owed it to Callisto to change, I consider to be fact, but that
: Callisto could have changed, I consider to be an opinion, and wouldn't
: argue otherwise.
Xena owing anything to anyone is still opinion. I, personally,
believe that Xena owed Callisto nothing but an apology, that it was on
Callisto's head to at least be WILLING to change. IF she was willing, then
any help Xena could give would be the best thing for her to do, but Xena
doesn't OWE it to Callisto.
But that's my belief. Since that's what I believe, and you believe
something different, it can hardly be said that anything on that subject
is FACT.
:> But, like I said, you try to disprove our facts with your strong opinions.
: these are not opinions...the fact that 4 + 4 = 8 is not an opinion, it's
: a mathematical concept of our physical world, just like justice is a
: mathematical concept of our physical world.
Bull. Justice is NOT an absolute, as you suggest. No one has the
same concept of justice, that's why laws have to be written, to make the
prevailing belief of what justice is in a certain region be enforced.
:> On the other hand, there are
:> MANY facts from the show I can use to prove Callisto DID deserve to die, and
:> I've probly already said them 1000000 times...
: I especially don't think Callisto deserved to die at the hand Xena, that
: is, I don't believe Xena had the right to kill her.
Xena had the opportunity, which no one else probably EVER would,
considering the circumstances.
:> Well, you STILL don't seem to get it: THIS IS NOT OUR WORLD. THIS IS NOT OUR
:> COURT SYSTEM. THERE ARE NO REAL GODS. You think a person as powerful as
:> Callisto would be let roam around in ANY world? Umm, DOUBTFUL.
: Now you are taking your end of the arguement into the fantasy realm of
: the xenaverse, which is a cowardly thing to do in an arguement, because
: the instant we base ourselves on the laws of the xenaverse (which are
: the laws of fantasy) everything turns upsidedown, and this arguement
: will have no weight because we are argueing fantasy elements.
Fool! XENA, the SHOW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, takes place in that
world! Whether Xena had a right to Callisto had that situation taken place
in our world is TOTALLY IRRELEVENT! 100% irrelevent! Because it DID NOT.
It took place in the Xenaverse, where the rules are different. To discuss
it OUTSIDE of the Xenaverse is simply a stupid mental exercise and has
nothing to do with proving, once and for all, whether Xena murdered
Callisto or just killed her.
:> It's like (in
:> today's world) letting a person run around with an atom bomb. What would that
:> person do with it?
: It's hardly an atomic bomb, it's more like somebody walking around
: strapped with weapons, and grenades and stuff.
Bull. Callisto, at the time of her death, was a GOD. That's a
walking atom bomb if I ever saw one...
:> They COULD just sit on it. Or they could kill TONS of
:> people. They may be good, they may be bad. WOuld it really matter? NO FRIGGIN'
:> WAY. Same for Callisto... And don't respond to this with an OPINION, please?
:> You KNOW, in this case, what I say IS true, just admit it...
: You are absoloutely right, but bending the laws of justice is not the
: answer. If we bend justice around into silly putty that will *not* be
: for the greater good, because it will cause alot more havok then
: anything Callisto could dish out.
Justice is bent all the time. Laws are amended, ratified, changed,
and otherwise altered whenever a new situation comes up that the old law
didn't cover. No law can cover every concievable possibility that could
come up within the scope of what it is trying to protect the people from.
The fact that, in the Xenaverse, laws are bent without the consent of
committees or lawmakers, who would probably ultimately agree with the
actions taken despite their law-bending effect, doesn't matter since law
isn't quite so cut and dried there as it is here. Here, if you break the
letter of the law while defending the spirit of it, you can still be tried
for the crime. The law may be changed later to cover what you did, but you
don't retroactively get pardoned. It doesn't seem to work that way either
in the Xenaverse or in history.
Rubicant
>
> Well, since this case takes place in the Xenaverse, it only makes
> sense that Xenaverse justice prevails over this argument.
I don't think that is true, I actually believe we are better off arguing
universal justice, any other arguement would make no sense...
> Xena didn't
> murder Callisto according to the laws of the Xenaverse, thus XENA DIDN'T
> MURDER CALLISTO. Plain and simple.
You see, argueing Xenaverse justice makes no sense because there really
is no justice in the xenaverse, if you and BDangelo argue in terms of
xenaverse justice you simply allow yourself to argue whatever you want.
In the Xenaverse I could kill a helpless child, and then bury it, and
nobody would find out, and then go back in time, and stop myself from
doing it, and slip into a parraellel universe, and find my mirror image,
and then me and my other two look alikes can become the three stooges,
you would be allowing yourself to prance around through imaginary
concepts that have nothing to do with the actual arguement, but
interfere. Though if we are argueing the -system of courts- back then
it still makes no sense because they had such an inferior system of
courts that it allows you and BDangelo the ability to say whatever the
hell you want, I remember an episode in which the courts threw Iolaus
into a pond attached to a rock and decided that if he could survive long
enough underwater he was innocent...thats not justice, thats inferior,
if you want to argue in terms of that justice you are argueing a
horribly inferior form of justice.
> You don't tell foreigners that they can't arrest you because what
> you did isn't illegal in your own country, not without looking like a
> fool and possibly being made an example of. Similarly, you don't try to
> apply otherworldy justice to a show that doesn't take palce
> in that
> world...
As I said before justice is a universal concept among all human beings
among all times, law is another thing, law is a concept of justice that
varies from country to country, time to time. I'll give you a couple of
examples of universal justice if you need them: You don't execute
innocent people, you don't steal unless absoloutely neccessary, and
slavery is not justice...it comes from the heart of human beings...
> :> And there was that from Callisto. She may not have been about to
> :> attack, but her reputation and god-status made her that dangerous.
>
> : I say: she was powerfull, and had a record of danger, not that she was
> : bound to be dangerous, just that there was a chance she might be
> : dangerous in the future.
>
> I've said this myself. I've also further elaborated that this
> chance of her being dangerous in the future makes her a poor risk and, for
> the good of the people she MIGHT be dangerous to (who will almost
> certainly outnumber her) Callisto has to die to keep them safe.
I understnad what you are saying, and I've honestly thought about your
point of view on this matter, and I'm very aware of how important this
point is to you and your arguement, but I still must disagree. I would,
however, agree with you if there was some way of *knowing* that Callsito
would commit further crimes, If I was sure of it, then I would agree
with you, but there is only a possiblity. The safety of a few villagers
Callisto *might* hurt imo does not outweigh the definite killing of one
innocent person. Not only that, but Xena with a past record parralell
to Callistos has no right to be the one making that decision.
> On person
> dies so that many may live. Not just live, but live without fear.
> This is good math, good statistics. It preserves the peace and
> punishes a known wrong-doer. What part of that make killing Callisto not
> at least the lesser of two evils?
You keep saying "one dies so that many may live" as if Callisto has
already commited the acts, or it's a sure fact that she will commit
these acts. Murdering the innocent is wrong, and I don't think you can
ever turn me over from this point of view. If I had the chance to die
to save many peoples lives I would do so, but if somebody else decided
to take my life for the sake of a possible many deaths I would be kinda
pissed.
> : Well, Callisto started to open up to Gabrielle, but then slaughtered it
> : with the comment about perdicus, my only -guess- (thats right, my
> : opinion, not a fact) is that she was scared of anybody sympathizing with
> : her, because it would insult the greatness of her pain (in her mind
> : nobody could possibly understand what she is going through, any attampt
> : for anybody to try is seen as an offense), which she thrives off of as
> : the only reason for her to live.
>
> Unfortunately, this says nothing about whether or not she'd kill
> again before she reformed her ways.
It does though, show that there is a *possibility* that she can reform
her ways.
> People are still at risk from her, and
> she cannot be neutralized without killing her. The choice is clear, she
> has to die to protect the greater good.
Lets organize some points, and see if we can clear some things up: Xena
killed Callisto for a crime she didn't commit. Xena partially killed
Callisto in anger over the comment, and partially over the fact that she
could away with it because Callisto wanted to die anyhow. Xenas past is
much worse then Callistos. Xena had heaping amounts of help, whereas
Callisto hardly had any help. Xena was repsonisble for Cirra.
All of these elements tell me that your wrong. The main point is that
killing somebody who is innocent of a crime is murder. Plain and
simple.
> : I understand your mentailty (one great mans death to destroy a
> : megathreat is a sacrifice worth making), but at the same time, your
> : mentailty justifies the murder of an innocent man, if you just step
> : outside of yourself for a moment, and think about murdering an innocent
> : man you will realize how this system of justice is not justice. The
> : murdering of an innocent man is not optimal justice, at any scale, it's
> : an inferior form of justice.
>
> Well what would YOU suggest, keeping in mind that I won't accept
> any solution that doesn't protect the people who would die at the hands of
> the 99 evil ones...?
Hey, should we tear down all the buildings in new york because they
might crush somone? Should we stop taking airplanes because they might
crash? Should we not drive because we might get into a car accident?
no. Life goes one, you can't live life thinking: what if this happens,
what if that happens. There are so many possibilities in life that you
can't say you won't accept a soloution that doesn't protect the people,
the sky could fall on those people for all I know, anything could happen
to those peoples, nothing in life is assured, you have to live life and
see what happens. Thats a backwards way of looking at the situation,
just as saying something like: lets imprison all the irish because they
drink alot and might start trouble is crazy...
> :> Consider this: How many people are going to get killed if
> :> those 100 people are left alive?
>
> : Think of how much good you will have destroyed
>
> Not very much, by my estimate.
well, estimates don't count here, we are discussing facts as BDangelo
pointed out to me. Facts say: you don't know Callisto is going to do.
> :> Assume about ten apiece for the 99 "evil
> :> ones", though that's probably a conservative estimate considering how long
> :> a bandit's career _could_ be. So that 990 dead already.
>
> : Lets say bigfoot came out and ate them all, lets say Hera came down and
> : destroyed the universe, lets say hercules eats a potatoe...nobody can be
> : certain of whats going to happen in the future. A system of justice
> : that relies on guesses, and things is a system that is inferior
>
> We're not talking about a system of justice, we're talking
> hypothetical situations. Look at the problem you presented me with: 99
> evil guys and 1 good guy.
I didn't give this problem to you, that was someone else...
> Somehow I have to know that the one good guy IS
> good and the 99 bad guys ARE bad to make this decision. But you've just
> turned the problem around to say that now I have to kill 100 people
> without first knowing what they would do.
> This isn't even close to the situation with Callisto. With
> Callisto, we have a KNOWN KILLER, who kills not for any reason other than
> to antagonize Xena. We can extrapolate from her past actions what she is
> likely to do later.
We KNOW Calisto has killed in the past, we don't KNOW she is going to
kill in the future, a guess is a guess, not a fact. We are discussing
facts. Xena killed an innocent person, for whatever cause is for
whatever cause, but she DID kill somebody for a crime that never
happened, and thats murder anyway you look at it.
-Lazarus-
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: ta...@IfYouSpamMeIWillHaveYouKilled.cris.com wrote:
:>
:> Well, since this case takes place in the Xenaverse, it only makes
:> sense that Xenaverse justice prevails over this argument.
: I don't think that is true, I actually believe we are better off arguing
: universal justice, any other arguement would make no sense...
There's no such THING as universal justice. It doesn't exist.
NOBODY believes in the same justice as anyone else, everybody has their
own concept, that's why there are LAWS written so that any justice dished
out is fair and equal for everybody. If there was universal justice we
would only need people to enforce it, not people to write it all down,
interpret it, defend it, etc. because it would already be universally
known.
Justice in the Xenaverse is the justice that would apply to the
situation with Xena/Callisto, so that's the justice that ought to take
precedence.
:> Xena didn't
:> murder Callisto according to the laws of the Xenaverse, thus XENA DIDN'T
:> MURDER CALLISTO. Plain and simple.
: You see, argueing Xenaverse justice makes no sense because there really
: is no justice in the xenaverse, if you and BDangelo argue in terms of
: xenaverse justice you simply allow yourself to argue whatever you want.
: In the Xenaverse I could kill a helpless child, and then bury it, and
: nobody would find out, and then go back in time, and stop myself from
: doing it, and slip into a parraellel universe, and find my mirror image,
: and then me and my other two look alikes can become the three stooges,
: you would be allowing yourself to prance around through imaginary
: concepts that have nothing to do with the actual arguement, but
: interfere.
You say "the actual argument" like it isn't about XENA AND
CALLISTO. YOU seem to want to argue about the concept of murder in a very
general sense, as it pertains to the entire world, past, present, future,
and in terms of spirituality and morality. But the actual argument is,
given the circumstances the killing took place under and the rules of
justice in the land where it happened, did Xena murder Callisto? And, in
those terms, the answer is an emphatic "No!".
I don't want to argue philosophy with you. I might have once, but
I'm sick of this argument and, frankly, I'm sick of you. The simple point
is that, within the context of the show, Callisto's killing was justified
and necessary. And, since this is a Xena newsgroup, I want to discuss
XENA and the Xenaverse, and bloody little else.
: Though if we are argueing the -system of courts- back then
: it still makes no sense because they had such an inferior system of
: courts that it allows you and BDangelo the ability to say whatever the
: hell you want, I remember an episode in which the courts threw Iolaus
: into a pond attached to a rock and decided that if he could survive long
: enough underwater he was innocent...thats not justice, thats inferior,
: if you want to argue in terms of that justice you are argueing a
: horribly inferior form of justice.
But that's the point: They had a _different_ (I won't acknowlege
the term "inferior", that is totally opinion. Theirs was less organized,
perhaps, and probably more draconian, but it was by no means without its
merits over today's systems) form of justice then, so today's rules can't
be applied to a situation back THEN.
:> You don't tell foreigners that they can't arrest you because what
:> you did isn't illegal in your own country, not without looking like a
:> fool and possibly being made an example of. Similarly, you don't try to
:> apply otherworldy justice to a show that doesn't take palce
:> in that
:> world...
: As I said before justice is a universal concept among all human beings
: among all times, law is another thing, law is a concept of justice that
: varies from country to country, time to time. I'll give you a couple of
: examples of universal justice if you need them: You don't execute
: innocent people, you don't steal unless absoloutely neccessary, and
: slavery is not justice...it comes from the heart of human beings...
You are wrong. There is no absolute form of justice. What one man
may see as just, another may see as a travesty. Justice comes down to
beliefs, and one person may believe that it isn't just to EVER steal, much
less when it's necessary. And even _necessary_ is up for debate. You
cannot find a universal form of justice that every person believes, deep
in their heart, to be true and have this justice be the same for
everybody. It just doesn't work like that.
:> : I say: she was powerfull, and had a record of danger, not that she was
:> : bound to be dangerous, just that there was a chance she might be
:> : dangerous in the future.
:>
:> I've said this myself. I've also further elaborated that this
:> chance of her being dangerous in the future makes her a poor risk and, for
:> the good of the people she MIGHT be dangerous to (who will almost
:> certainly outnumber her) Callisto has to die to keep them safe.
: I understnad what you are saying, and I've honestly thought about your
: point of view on this matter, and I'm very aware of how important this
: point is to you and your arguement, but I still must disagree.
Fine. Now say WHY. WHY do you disagree? No, I know, you think we
have to KNOW that Callisto would commit crimes later.
But what you DON'T say is how you justify your inaction in
stopping Callisto when you had the chance to the people she harms later,
if she does. You never say how your system of justice is supposed to
benefit THEM, the people who's safety you casually risked when you didn't
contain or kill Callisto when you had the chance.
KNOWING what someone will do in the future is a luxury you cannot
afford when dealing with a person who's past record looks even HALF as bad
as Callisto's or who's power is half as strong. Callisto was a GOD with a
known record of violence against innocents and you choose to be SURE that
she'll harm people before stopping her from EVER doing it again? Don't
ever become a judge, buddy, I swear you'll only last a day on the bench.
: I would,
: however, agree with you if there was some way of *knowing* that Callsito
: would commit further crimes, If I was sure of it, then I would agree
: with you, but there is only a possiblity. The safety of a few villagers
: Callisto *might* hurt imo does not outweigh the definite killing of one
: innocent person.
She isn't DEFINITELY innocent, though. Callisto has committed
crimes that are capital in ANY justice system already; the fact that you
kill her from ever doing it again is merely prudence, she has too much to
answer for already.
But, even so, how do you justify risking more than one life to try
and save only one? Would you put your own life up as the stakes in this
little game? If you were in Xena's position and you were told "Okay, you
can try to heal Callisto, and if it works she doesn't die. Or, you can
kill her now. Or, lastly, you can try to heal her and, if it doesn't work
and she kills again, YOUR life is forfeit along with those she hurts.
Choose." would you take that bet? Or, more to the point, what if you were
one of those villagers that Callisto would hurt if she didn't change? What
if your family was? Are THEIR lives worth trying to help Callisto?
Remember, they only live is Callisto changes her ways...are you so sure
she will that you will risk everything you care about to try?
You are pretty casual with the lives of people that don't really
exist. Could you do it with REAL people? I'm sorry, but if Callisto kills
even ONE person the risk isn't worth it, IMHO. Had you taken Callisto
down, that death would never happen. Sure, you don't KNOW Callisto would
have killed that person, but you CAN see that it was likely. And with a
record like Callisto's, she probably needs to die for her crimes anyway.
Best to protect others FOR CERTAIN than risk their lives on a POSSIBILITY.
: Not only that, but Xena with a past record parralell
: to Callistos has no right to be the one making that decision.
Sure she does. Xena has felt the rage and pain that Callisto has.
Xena's done some of the things that Callisto has. She KNOWS what it's
like, and she knows what it takes to change. There's no one better to
recognize the chance for change than Xena. And if she doesn't see it in
Callisto, she's prefectly justified in taking that blond bitch down to
protect others.
:> On person
:> dies so that many may live. Not just live, but live without fear.
:> This is good math, good statistics. It preserves the peace and
:> punishes a known wrong-doer. What part of that make killing Callisto not
:> at least the lesser of two evils?
: You keep saying "one dies so that many may live" as if Callisto has
: already commited the acts, or it's a sure fact that she will commit
: these acts.
No, I'm saying it like Callisto COULD, MIGHT, and PROBABLY WILL do
these things. She's given no indication she wouldn't.
YOU keep talking like Callisto has given a sign she will change or
already HAS changed and definitely WON'T kill anyone ever again.
: Murdering the innocent is wrong, and I don't think you can
: ever turn me over from this point of view.
Callisto is NOT innocent. Perhaps she hasn't killed those
villagers yet, and maybe she never will. But she HAS killed OTHER
villagers for no reason other than to frame Xena. Callisto murdered
Perdicus JUST to make Gabrielle hurt and, through her, to make Xena hurt.
If there's anything Callisto ISN'T, it's innocent.
: If I had the chance to die
: to save many peoples lives I would do so, but if somebody else decided
: to take my life for the sake of a possible many deaths I would be kinda
: pissed.
Then take a mental memo: Don't put yourself in a position where
you might kill lots of people who don't deserve it and no one will kill
you to stop you.
Hell, when I spent that summer at the Academy, they had some
weapons training on the firing range. The instructor told us to be very
careful because we had live ammunition. He also said that if he saw anyone
acting in an unsafe or reckless manner, he was authorized to use deadly
force to keep us from harming anyone. He could _shoot_ one of us, and no
one would blame him, for simply _acting_ in a dangerous manner, because we
might be a danger to someone else, even if we hadn't actually DONE
anything.
The point is, Callisto represented that _possible_ danger. This is
a danger that HAS to be neutralized. Since she was a god and thus couldn't
be contained, and trying to change her was by no means certain, the only
option left was death.
I'll tell you what, you come up with a solution that would
neutralize Callisto as a danger FOR CERTAIN, and you win this argument
right here and now. But I warn you, you have to be CERTAIN that she isn't
a danger. Talking to her MAY NOT work, so that's out. Trapping her won't
work since she's a god, so that's out. Perhaps removing her god-status?
How is that DONE in the Xenaverse? Ares became human when he lost his
sword, but Callisto doesn't have an artifact that is an integral part of
her god-status, does she?
Anyway, don't ignore this! You could win, hands down, right here
if you can come up with a way to remove Callisto AS A DANGER FOR
CERTAIN once and for all without killing her.
:> : Well, Callisto started to open up to Gabrielle, but then slaughtered it
:> : with the comment about perdicus, my only -guess- (thats right, my
:> : opinion, not a fact) is that she was scared of anybody sympathizing with
:> : her, because it would insult the greatness of her pain (in her mind
:> : nobody could possibly understand what she is going through, any attampt
:> : for anybody to try is seen as an offense), which she thrives off of as
:> : the only reason for her to live.
:>
:> Unfortunately, this says nothing about whether or not she'd kill
:> again before she reformed her ways.
: It does though, show that there is a *possibility* that she can reform
: her ways.
No, it doesn't. That's YOUR opinion, so it doesn't count. I think
it shows that she's willing to fuck with Gabby's head. That's my opinion.
Since we can't be certain about this point we have to throw it out because
it doesn't give us any irrefutable FACTS.
:> People are still at risk from her, and
:> she cannot be neutralized without killing her. The choice is clear, she
:> has to die to protect the greater good.
: Lets organize some points, and see if we can clear some things up: Xena
: killed Callisto for a crime she didn't commit.
No. Xena killed Callisto for eveything she's EVER DONE. Her list
of crimes is extensive. Xena killed Callisto because she was making snide
remarks about Xena's best friend dying. AND Xena killed Callisto because
she represented a danger to the world at large.
You cannot simplify this, nor put a spin on it like you have, and
expect it to have any weight in your argument. I'm reporting FACT here
while you're trying to make a mockery of everything I've said so far as
well as inserting your own opinion into it.
: Xena partially killed
: Callisto in anger over the comment, and partially over the fact that she
: could away with it because Callisto wanted to die anyhow. Xenas past is
: much worse then Callistos.
This last bit isn't so much a fact either. Xena may have more
blood on her hands, but her cause was more just than Callisto's. Xena
cared about SAVING her village, and about conquest. Xena's kills
are mostly those of soldiers while Callisto's are mostly
civilians. Callisto cared only about revenge. Not that the one is noble,
but it is the lesser of two evils. Callisto, though she got fewer people
killed, had worse motives which jacks up her evil factor more.
: Xena had heaping amounts of help, whereas
: Callisto hardly had any help.
Xena was recpetive to change where Callisto was not.
: Xena was repsonisble for Cirra.
Among other people. There was another warlord there, the men who
started the fires without orders, etc.
: All of these elements tell me that your
"you're". How long till you get that right?
: wrong. The main point is that
: killing somebody who is innocent of a crime is murder. Plain and
: simple.
Killing someone innocent of a crime is not always murder. My
example at the firing range, for example. Killing someone who is a danger
to others is often PRAISED, not condemned.
:> Well what would YOU suggest, keeping in mind that I won't accept
:> any solution that doesn't protect the people who would die at the hands of
:> the 99 evil ones...?
: Hey, should we tear down all the buildings in new york because they
: might crush somone? Should we stop taking airplanes because they might
: crash? Should we not drive because we might get into a car accident?
Nice fucking evasion, butt-munch. How about answering the
question? The problem given is that we KNOW those 99 men are evil and that
1 is good. We KNOW those 99 men will kill and the 1 man will do supposedly
good things.
Now, WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO SAVE THE PEOPLE THOSE 99 MEN WOULD
VICTIMZE, hmm? We aren't talking about buildings, which represent a
passive danger, we're talking about concious men who live to kill,
pillage, rape, and loot. HOW DO YOU STOP THEM if your goal is to save the
life of the 1 "good" man? Answer the question. Stop evading it. If you
can't answer it, SAY SO.
:> : Think of how much good you will have destroyed
:>
:> Not very much, by my estimate.
: well, estimates don't count here, we are discussing facts as BDangelo
: pointed out to me. Facts say: you don't know Callisto is going to do.
And it isn't a FACT that Christ, who was the example given for the
"good man", did good. With his new religion he got a LOT of people killed
in various religious wars, persecutions, etc. Perhaps doing away with him
along with the other 99 might have saved even MORE lives.
So, by my estimate, not much good would be destroyed by killing
all 100 men. Yet you say that lots of good WILL be destroyed, comepltely
ignoring how often people use religion as an excuse to be really crappy to
each other. Just look at the Middle East for examples of THAT today, not
to mention the Balkans, Northern Ireland, etc.
I'm not saying it's FACT that SOME good won't be done, but your
assertion that that one man will do enough good to outweigh all the evil
is just laughable.
:> We're not talking about a system of justice, we're talking
:> hypothetical situations. Look at the problem you presented me with: 99
:> evil guys and 1 good guy.
: I didn't give this problem to you, that was someone else...
Yet you responded to it, so you might as well answer within the
parameters given...
:> Somehow I have to know that the one good guy IS
:> good and the 99 bad guys ARE bad to make this decision. But you've just
:> turned the problem around to say that now I have to kill 100 people
:> without first knowing what they would do.
:> This isn't even close to the situation with Callisto. With
:> Callisto, we have a KNOWN KILLER, who kills not for any reason other than
:> to antagonize Xena. We can extrapolate from her past actions what she is
:> likely to do later.
: We KNOW Calisto has killed in the past, we don't KNOW she is going to
: kill in the future, a guess is a guess, not a fact. We are discussing
: facts. Xena killed an innocent person, for whatever cause is for
: whatever cause, but she DID kill somebody for a crime that never
: happened, and thats murder anyway you look at it.
It is a FACT that Callisto has given no sign that she has changed.
It is a FACT that Callisto has given no sign that she HASN'T changed. The
only thing left to do IS guess, and weight the risks of killing her
against NOT killing her.
Case AGAINST killing her, as presented by you: We have a chance to
save Callisto's soul, or whatever, and bring her back from the edge of
insanity to see the error of her ways. We could help her and she may not
kill again.
Case FOR killing her, as presented by me: Callisto has given us no
way to know whether or not she will kill again. Her past record has shown
that, in all likelyhood, she WILL. Better to be safe than sorry, better
that one should die to protect others. Even without PROOF that she will do
it again, we have no PROOF she WON'T and that makes her a risk. Her powers
keep her from being detainable and she has escaped many times as a mortal
anyway. Her past crimes condemn her already, her potential crimes cannot
be tolerated. Her life is forfeit.
Gatsby -- aka Dave H.
> always be there to prevent this, and allowing Callisto to attempt another
> killing (or not) would most likely result in another innocent death. Glad
> to hear another person understands.
It's up to the law to decide when to punish a person/incarcerate them when
they are deemed a threat to society, not an individual, unless that
individual is acting under vengeance. If you want to say Xena was acting
under vengeance, then her actions fall within that rational.
> : In punishing them, we are not saying that
> : they can never change, that they're unreformable, but that the risk of
them not
> : changing is too great to take a chance on.
>
> Well, I agree, reservedly. The system of justice in the US is
> based on the idea that people can change, though the rehabilitation of the
> prison system seems to be very poorly managed.
> It's when someone proves themselves unchangable, by a record of
> repeated violations of law, that the punishments get more severe. (Or in
> the case of really heinous crimes that no society can tolerate) That's
> what the whole "three strikes" system was about. It put an actual number
> on how mnay chances you had to stay on the right side of the law.
> Callisto was way past three strikes.
If Callisto was *way* past that 3rd strike in the 2-3 years she'd been a
warlord, how much farther past it was Xena in her 10 years? Perhaps because
your religious and believe in an after-life you take the death-penalty less
seriously -- don't put that unseriousness on me or anyone else.
Realistically, since death is just that -- absence of life -- Callisto
would've never come back and never been in tartarus/elysia. A person's life
at least deserves more consideration than the few seconds of deliberation
Xena might have had about Callisto's . . . any person's life.
> What other options were there? As you said, Xena could hardly let
> Callisto go. She couldn't justify it to the enraged mob outside who had
> all lost family and friends to Callisto and it would be a validation for
> Callisto's behavior. And if Xena tried to talk to Callisto and actually
> got through,got Callisto to reform her ways only to have her executed for
> her crimes in a fair trial...or ripped apart by that mob...what would be
> the point?
Um, she could have easily let her go, the same way she was let off for all
the crimes she committed. Do you think that if Xena went into a town she
raided, that town would act any different to her, even though she's changed?
As for what would have been the point, why not? So what if she died a
changed person, executed or torn apart by the mob? It wouldn't change the
intrinsic value of the change. Have you read *A Tale Of Two Cities*?
Sydney Carton's change, to a character of nobility, sacraficing himself to
save another, was certainly worth while("It is a far far better thing I do
than I have ever done; it is a far far better resting place I goto than I
have ever known." Someone at peace is someone who's no longer miserable; no
one deserves to live life in a succession of miseries. What if she was torn
apart by a mob after she changed? -- would have had much more pathos. At
least if she changed b4 she died, the few people who knew of it would feel
somewhat sad. The worst kind of death is to die and have no one care.
> This is called good television. Personally, just once I'd like to
> see a hero show where the main character is a boy scout as opposed to a
> smart-alec rogue (they sort of tried this with Due South, but they made
> him a little too much of a boy scout and saddled him with a rogue partner,
> so that doesn't count). But this is to keep people interested in Xena
> because she can spout witty reparte.
U call "You never wrote" good TV? I see it as kinda corny, like a lot of
the lines on these type of shows.
> :And then Arleia, Callisto's mother, delivers the final blow,
> : telling her "you have to face your crimes" and then Callisto is thrown
into a
> : wall and disappears and we're all supposed to feel good about goodness
> : triumphing.
>
> Well, sure. Look, the responsibility for Callisto's actions falls
> solely on Callisto herself. I'm sure Xena caused many others just as much
> pain as she did Callisto when Xena was a warlord. But only one of them
> went on a killing spree to tarnish Xena's name, only one of them when
> totally moon-bats-crazy like Callisto. What happened to Callisto might
> have been Xena's fault (debatable), but what Callisto did about it was her
> own fault.
Yes, and Xena was the exact same case as Callisto; she escalated her killing
after a good friend of hers(that slave girl she picked up in the flashback
Ceaser ep) was killed by one of Ceaser's men. She started her insanity rage
for the same reasons as did Callisto.
> When a person dies, they are judged and then sent one place or the
> other. But to be sent to the Elysian Fields you have to have been on the
> "good" side in life, before death. This much is said in the episode with
> Marcus and Sisyphus, when no one could die. (Sorry, don't remember the
> episode name)
> Callisto wasn't sent to Tartarus to face her crimes, she's sent
> there to be punished for them.
> Why did Xena allow Callisto to be sent there? Containment. Like
> you said, and I've said, the risks in allowing her to live are too great.
This is why the afterlife concept is fucked up. No matter how much wrong
you could have done in your life, even to Hitler's scale, an eternity of
burning, and water drop torture, and the rack, and electricution, and every
other torture imaginable by far outweighs the crimes you've done. Ppl, in
general, believe in the afterlife b/c they want to see those who wronged
them punished in infinite fold; we belive in this after-life because we are
cowards and cannot accept not existing.
> That's, again, not how I read that scene. Callisto didn't really
> seem to care, as far as I saw. If anything, it made things worse for
> Callisto.
Um, she was moved; you saw yourself, she was in a daze. Perhaps she did
want the city to rip Xena apart; most ppl want just that for someone that
kills their parents. Lets look at it this way: she doesn't seem 2b one to
be hypocritical. Callisto would probably be willing to submit herself to an
angry mob willingly if it meant Xena would do the same, and she could watch
Xena dying as she was dying simultaneously.
> It IS the mark of someone a bit loopy. Who wants a perpetual deul
> with the person you hate the most? Callisto was a wingnut by then, no
> doubt.
'wingnut' -- I like that, kind of a rip-off of Descent 2, though.
> : Now,
> : Callisto then asks Gabrielle a question about *her* pain, pain being the
center
> : of Callisto's life. She asks straightfaced how long it took Perdicus to
die.
> She asks this out of pure psychotic glee, the intention was to
> HURT Gabrielle, not to have an open dialogue.
This is called putting up a wall. She sensed that she was weak, that
Gabrielle pitied her, and she didn't want this, so she needed to create an
emotion that blatantly overwhelmed that pity. Callisto feels that it was
because she had feeling in the first place that she was hurt, thus she tries
to abolish them w/in herself.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> always be there to prevent this, and allowing Callisto to attempt another
:> killing (or not) would most likely result in another innocent death. Glad
:> to hear another person understands.
: It's up to the law to decide when to punish a person/incarcerate them when
: they are deemed a threat to society, not an individual, unless that
: individual is acting under vengeance. If you want to say Xena was acting
: under vengeance, then her actions fall within that rational.
The law, in the case of the Xenaverse, is extraordinarily
nebulous. Factor in the part about Callisto being a god and thus neededing
to be killed whenever the chance presented itself or possibly never have
that chance again, and...
:> Well, I agree, reservedly. The system of justice in the US is
:> based on the idea that people can change, though the rehabilitation of the
:> prison system seems to be very poorly managed.
:> It's when someone proves themselves unchangable, by a record of
:> repeated violations of law, that the punishments get more severe. (Or in
:> the case of really heinous crimes that no society can tolerate) That's
:> what the whole "three strikes" system was about. It put an actual number
:> on how mnay chances you had to stay on the right side of the law.
:> Callisto was way past three strikes.
: If Callisto was *way* past that 3rd strike in the 2-3 years she'd been a
: warlord, how much farther past it was Xena in her 10 years? Perhaps because
: your religious and believe in an after-life you take the death-penalty less
: seriously -- don't put that unseriousness on me or anyone else.
What??? When did I ever say I believed in the afterlife? I'm the
most secular person you'll ever meet!
Besides, Xena was a warlord, yes, and she was ruthless, yes, but
she was never quite as _crazy_ as Callisto. You could always have a
_chance_ of reasoning with Xena. Not so with Callisto.
: Realistically, since death is just that -- absence of life -- Callisto
: would've never come back and never been in tartarus/elysia. A person's life
: at least deserves more consideration than the few seconds of deliberation
: Xena might have had about Callisto's . . . any person's life.
And that consideration was taken...a LONG time ago. It isn't like
Xena weighed all of Callisto's crimes right then and there in that cave
after Gabby died and THEN passed her own judgement. Callisto's crimes have
built up over the years.
:> What other options were there? As you said, Xena could hardly let
:> Callisto go. She couldn't justify it to the enraged mob outside who had
:> all lost family and friends to Callisto and it would be a validation for
:> Callisto's behavior. And if Xena tried to talk to Callisto and actually
:> got through,got Callisto to reform her ways only to have her executed for
:> her crimes in a fair trial...or ripped apart by that mob...what would be
:> the point?
: Um, she could have easily let her go, the same way she was let off for all
: the crimes she committed.
No, I don't think so. See, it wouldn't be the same as when Xena
has been let go. Xena has reformed herself, Callisto has not and has given
no indication that she might ever do so.
There's a difference between being let go because you've changed
and just being let go regardless of change.
: Do you think that if Xena went into a town she
: raided, that town would act any different to her, even though she's changed?
Perhaps not, but Xena at least understands the value of human life
and will either run or not fight. Callisto would wade in hacking.
: As for what would have been the point, why not? So what if she died a
: changed person, executed or torn apart by the mob? It wouldn't change the
: intrinsic value of the change.
Callisto never DID change, and that's the point.
: Have you read *A Tale Of Two Cities*?
: Sydney Carton's change, to a character of nobility, sacraficing himself to
: save another, was certainly worth while("It is a far far better thing I do
: than I have ever done; it is a far far better resting place I goto than I
: have ever known." Someone at peace is someone who's no longer miserable; no
: one deserves to live life in a succession of miseries. What if she was torn
: apart by a mob after she changed? -- would have had much more pathos. At
: least if she changed b4 she died, the few people who knew of it would feel
: somewhat sad. The worst kind of death is to die and have no one care.
What about dying and having everybody be GLAD?
:> This is called good television. Personally, just once I'd like to
:> see a hero show where the main character is a boy scout as opposed to a
:> smart-alec rogue (they sort of tried this with Due South, but they made
:> him a little too much of a boy scout and saddled him with a rogue partner,
:> so that doesn't count). But this is to keep people interested in Xena
:> because she can spout witty reparte.
: U call "You never wrote" good TV? I see it as kinda corny, like a lot of
: the lines on these type of shows.
Sure I do. It's hero-talk, what I call a "TV dinner line".
(Origin: DIE HARD. John McClean struggling his way through an air vent
says, to be funny, "Now I know what TV dinner feels like." It's the kind
of line you get on bad cartoon shows all the time.) It's cheese and camp
and part of what makes a hero fun to watch.
:> Well, sure. Look, the responsibility for Callisto's actions falls
:> solely on Callisto herself. I'm sure Xena caused many others just as much
:> pain as she did Callisto when Xena was a warlord. But only one of them
:> went on a killing spree to tarnish Xena's name, only one of them when
:> totally moon-bats-crazy like Callisto. What happened to Callisto might
:> have been Xena's fault (debatable), but what Callisto did about it was her
:> own fault.
: Yes, and Xena was the exact same case as Callisto; she escalated her killing
: after a good friend of hers(that slave girl she picked up in the flashback
: Ceaser ep) was killed by one of Ceaser's men. She started her insanity rage
: for the same reasons as did Callisto.
But Xena was able to change, Callisto never was. Callisto not
changing makes her a constant danger, her being a god makes her a BIG
constant danger. She cannot be allowed ot remain alive.
:> When a person dies, they are judged and then sent one place or the
:> other. But to be sent to the Elysian Fields you have to have been on the
:> "good" side in life, before death. This much is said in the episode with
:> Marcus and Sisyphus, when no one could die. (Sorry, don't remember the
:> episode name)
:> Callisto wasn't sent to Tartarus to face her crimes, she's sent
:> there to be punished for them.
:> Why did Xena allow Callisto to be sent there? Containment. Like
:> you said, and I've said, the risks in allowing her to live are too great.
: This is why the afterlife concept is fucked up. No matter how much wrong
: you could have done in your life, even to Hitler's scale, an eternity of
: burning, and water drop torture, and the rack, and electricution, and every
: other torture imaginable by far outweighs the crimes you've done. Ppl, in
: general, believe in the afterlife b/c they want to see those who wronged
: them punished in infinite fold; we belive in this after-life because we are
: cowards and cannot accept not existing.
In the context of the show, the afterlife is real and that's how
it's set up so we might as well accept it as true for the duration of this
conversation and in any other conversation realting to Xena. The real
world may not work that way, but we cannot argue characters, motivations,
plot points, or anything else relating to Xena without discussing it in
terms of what is true within the universe of the show.
:> That's, again, not how I read that scene. Callisto didn't really
:> seem to care, as far as I saw. If anything, it made things worse for
:> Callisto.
: Um, she was moved; you saw yourself, she was in a daze.
She wasn't moved, she was annoyed.
: Perhaps she did
: want the city to rip Xena apart; most ppl want just that for someone that
: kills their parents. Lets look at it this way: she doesn't seem 2b one to
: be hypocritical. Callisto would probably be willing to submit herself to an
: angry mob willingly if it meant Xena would do the same, and she could watch
: Xena dying as she was dying simultaneously.
Which only re-affirms the idea that all she cares about is
revenge.
:> It IS the mark of someone a bit loopy. Who wants a perpetual deul
:> with the person you hate the most? Callisto was a wingnut by then, no
:> doubt.
: 'wingnut' -- I like that, kind of a rip-off of Descent 2, though.
Never played it, didn't rip it off from there.
:> : Now,
:> : Callisto then asks Gabrielle a question about *her* pain, pain being the
: center
:> : of Callisto's life. She asks straightfaced how long it took Perdicus to
: die.
:> She asks this out of pure psychotic glee, the intention was to
:> HURT Gabrielle, not to have an open dialogue.
: This is called putting up a wall.
Right. Indicating that she was NOT receptive to changing herself,
not able to let go of her hatred and need for revenge.
: She sensed that she was weak, that
: Gabrielle pitied her, and she didn't want this, so she needed to create an
: emotion that blatantly overwhelmed that pity.
No, she just couldn't be persuaded from the path she was on.
BDangelico
>
>When you started saying things like "tsk tsk" I knew you were begining
>to get frustrated.
No, tsk tsk mean 'shame on you' (for not knowing exactly what I was argueing
about after ALL THIS TIME).
>
>> And I thought, in every
>> debate, arguement, whatever, some people are against some people...isn't
>that
>> the point of a debate, arguement, whatever...?
>
>I don't believe that debating is about being "against" the other person.
Actually, your views and opinions do seem to be AGAINST other peoples views and
opinions in arguements and debates...
>
>> >I can back up my opinions with facts. Give me an example of my
>> >opinions, and I'll back it up with factual information...Hell, maybe
>> >your right, maybe I did add in my opinions here, and there, but please,
>> >your being way to vague, so vague that I have no way of putting an
>> >arguement against you except by saying "I disagree with you" and thats
>> >been a pretty redundant theme through this arguement...
>> >
>> >
>> You say you think Xena owes it to Callisto to try and help her
>
>I believe that if Xena can justify the fact that she is still alive
>right now, and not dead (from somebody killing her because they thought
>she was unchangable as a warlord), then she can't justify killing
>Callisto. How do I believe this? Xena had truck loads of time to
>change, and various people who were on her side helping her change
>throughout the years, whereas Callisto barely had any help from anyone,
>everyone seemed to have given up before even trying. <<
LIKE I SAID BEFORE, WHICH YOU SNIPPED OFF, Xena also barely had ANY help. And,
MOST LIKELY, when Xena was a warlord, more people feared her than wanted to
help her. It took 10 years for someone (Herc) to come along to finally give her
a little push. The push Herc gave Xena was pretty much equal to the push Xena
tried to give Callisto. IF YOU'VE SEEN "The Gauntlet" and "Unchained Heart": in
TG, Xena fights Herc, gets defeated by Herc, Herc offers to help her and ask
her to join them etc. etc., Xena REFUSES and runs off, she later returns and
helps them fight. SO IT WOULD SEEM, in her alone time, Xena igured out BY
HERSELF to change. Then, in UH, Hercules ACTUALLY SAID Xena changed because SHE
WANTED TO, SHE DID IT HERSELF. So it should be the same for Callisto, that is,
unless she was TOTALLY EVIL AND DIDN'T WANT TO CHANGE...
>I consider Xenas justice to be a little out of balance because of this,
>also the fact that Xena -was- responsible for Cirra (we can't even
>debate this, because Xena has excepted the responsiblity regardless if
>you like it or not, Xena -was- responsible for Cirra) and therefore Xena
>-was- responsible for Callistos familly, friends, and town being burned
>away.
>Among all of this, I think Xena owes it to Callisto to at least give a
>-sporting- try to help Callisto through talking with her...hey, it
>couldn't hurt.
Xena DID try to help. She did as much as she could and as much as Herc did for
her. It's Callisto's and ONLY Callisto's responsibility to change...
>
>> that Callisto
>> could have changed, that Callisto really had feelings, she wanted and
>needed
>> love, etc.
>
>Callisto was definitely fighting for justice, she just has a different
>way of going about things. This was not only implied, but directly
>stated on the show. She even stated that she was "misunderstood" which
>is obvious. <<
You really think she was fighting for justice?? Yeah, ok, maybe HER idea of
justice, which is, of course, all about revenge...
>> It was also implied that she was an average normal village
>girl who loved her familly. The fact that she loved her familly goes to
>show us that it is possible for Callisto to love, and not hate. <<
Oh and remember in Armageddon Now Pt. 2 after her parents were killed? Remember
how young Callisto cried over the sadness of losing her parents? No, dont
remember? Oh wait, I FORGOT, that's because she DIDN'T cry... Okay, maybe it
was shock, but then again, she was still able to say something to Iolaus, which
seemingly means, she never really had ANY feelings at all.
>> If you
>think about it, the whole reason Callisto started maiming people was in
>vengence of her parents death, it's obvious she feels the world is
>guilty for letting her parents die, especially Xena. Now lets think:
>Why would Callisto blame the world for her parents death, and not just
>Xena? Do you have any ideas?
>A logical explaination I can think of is that: she believes that if the
>world can -let- somebody with such a hideuos past as Xenas make amends
>(and put her past behind her), the world must not have been intorducced
>to the Xena Callisto remembers. If the world can justify Xena being
>free of her past, they must not know (all the pain Xena has caused in
>her wake), or they must be stupid, or evil enough to justify such an
>act. It's all subconcious, I know none of this is *fact* but it
>certainly fits fine in my opinion, and is a possible scenerio for whats
>going on in Callisto mind.
Its ALL SPECULATION AND GUESSING. I can't accept speculation and guessing as a
good back-up to your arguement. Don't even bother saying it unless you can back
it up with FACT. Not that opinions are bad, but if u wanna discuss opinions go
post your top 10 episodes and talk about that, ok?
>
>> All opinions, all seem untrue.
>
>That Xena owed it to Callisto to change, I consider to be fact, but that
>Callisto could have changed, I consider to be an opinion, and wouldn't
>argue otherwise.
No, actually, thinking Xena owed it to Callisto to change IS your opinion,
being that your reasons why u think she owes it to Callisto to help her change
ARE opinions...understand?
>
>> She says in Return of Callisto how
>> she feels about love, if you remember. you've also contradicted yourself by
>> saying Xena owes it to Callisto to help her, and then saying it's your
>> responsibilty to make decisions yourself.
>
>I don't consider that to be a contradiction at all, why can't both
>scenarios coexist at the same time? Xena owes it to Callisto to *try*
>to help her change, but at the same time Callisto actions are still
>Callistos responsiblity. I don't exactly consider it Xenas
>responsiblity *to* change Callisto, just to give it a really good
>sporting try.
If you don't think Xena tried, PLEASE go re-watch The Gauntlet and Unchained
Heart. Hercules barely does anything. Xena, it seems, did most of the changing
on her own will, as proved by the events and dialogue in the 2 episodes...
I don't know what you're trying to say, but your opinions ARE opinions... makes
sense, right? opinion = opinion, 'nuff said.
>
>> You
>> don't think Callisto deserved to die, but there really arent any facts out
>> there you could possibly even use to prove that.
>
>I don't think Callisto deserved to die the way she did, though at the
>same time I do believe she was asking for it, and deserved to die
>eventually...that is *ASSUMING* she were to contiue on the way she was,
>being a menace.
>
Well, since there IS no way to prove that she wouldn't be a killing machine
later on, but there IS proof to come to a conclusion she most likely WOULD and
easily COULD kill again, u could just simply say she did deserve to die, plain
and simple.
>> On the other hand, there are
>> MANY facts from the show I can use to prove Callisto DID deserve to die,
>and
>> I've probly already said them 1000000 times...
>
>I especially don't think Callisto deserved to die at the hand Xena, that
>is, I don't believe Xena had the right to kill her.
>
If not Xena, who? What normal person could contain a GOD? Callisto couldn't
even be contained as a human. What makes u think she could be caught,
ESPECIALLY while not harming 100s of innocent people while struggling?
>> >> We tell you actual real facts that can't be
>> >> ignored, and yet, YOU DO ignore them...
>> >
>> >I have not ignored anything anybody has said in any of these arguements,
>> >whether I thought they were relevent or not is another story. But if
>> >your inclined to share the most important things I decided were
>> >irrelevent, I'd like to hear them.
>> >
>>
>> Well, you STILL don't seem to get it: THIS IS NOT OUR WORLD. THIS IS NOT
>OUR
>> COURT SYSTEM. THERE ARE NO REAL GODS. You think a person as powerful as
>> Callisto would be let roam around in ANY world? Umm, DOUBTFUL.
>
>Now you are taking your end of the arguement into the fantasy realm of
>the xenaverse, which is a cowardly thing to do in an arguement, >>
Hey, know what's even MORE cowardly??? Doing what you just did. I bring up a
good point, you say it's irrelevant... EXCUSE ME? This is the XENA news group,
isnt it? It really only makes sense, therefore, to talk about characters and
events in the XENAVERS. Like, DUH...
<<because
>the instant we base ourselves on the laws of the xenaverse (which are
>the laws of fantasy) everything turns upsidedown, and this arguement
>will have no weight because we are argueing fantasy elements.>>
Dude, it doesn't make sense, the words you are saying! You CANT compare fantasy
worlds to the real world, sorry, you can't. And if that's what you're doing,
then shut up with the whole arguement. This IS the Xena newsgroup, about the
Xena show, where we discuss Xena characters, Xena episodes, Xean stories, and
everything Xena-related. So when we say it was just for Callisto to die, we're
speaking in terms of how things work IN THE XENAVERSE. Which makes sense,
because (say it with me) THIS IS THE XENA NEWS GROUP!
>> I though,
>refuse to go there, because anyone of us could say: hey why didn't Xena
>just go back in time and stop Cirra from being destroyed or something
>stupid, and crazy like that, and I'm not going there...I'm not argueing
>whether mickey mouse could hop onto the screen and dance for Callisto.
>I am argueing basic laws of justice, and whether what Xena did can be
>justified from these basic rational concepts, our system of justice
>today is closest to the optimal form of justice (at least closer then
>the Xenaverse), so if anything we should argue the Xena facts in
>nowadays reality form of justice. We are talking about justice. By law
>of basic Justice one should not be executed for a crime they did not
>commit, end of story.
THEN DON'T AGRUE AT ALL. YOU make no sense, ok? If u wanna argue about THIS
WORLD'S (the real world) courts and justice, go to a current events newsgroup,
not this, the XENA news group, ok?
>
>> It's like (in
>> today's world) letting a person run around with an atom bomb. What would
>that
>> person do with it?
>
>It's hardly an atomic bomb, it's more like somebody walking around
>strapped with weapons, and grenades and stuff.
OK, here's a little lesson: can the atom bomb kill thousands of people? YES.
Can Callisto kill thousands of people? YES.
>
>> They COULD just sit on it. Or they could kill TONS of
>> people. They may be good, they may be bad. WOuld it really matter? NO
>FRIGGIN'
>> WAY. Same for Callisto... And don't respond to this with an OPINION,
>please?
>> You KNOW, in this case, what I say IS true, just admit it...
>
>You are absoloutely right, but bending the laws of justice is not the
>answer. If we bend justice around into silly putty that will *not* be
>for the greater good, because it will cause alot more havok then
>anything Callisto could dish out.
>
>-Rubicant- (Lazarus)
I don't understand what about this you think is 'bending the law'....
BD
Rubicant
>
> There's no such THING as universal justice. It doesn't exist.
like I said before, it's a mathematical concept, like time or space...It
does exist, not physicly, but mentaly.
> NOBODY believes in the same justice as anyone else, everybody has their
> own concept, that's why there are LAWS written so that any justice dished
> out is fair and equal for everybody. If there was universal justice we
> would only need people to enforce it, not people to write it all down,
> interpret it, defend it, etc. because it would already be universally
> known.
> Justice in the Xenaverse is the justice that would apply to the
> situation with Xena/Callisto, so that's the justice that ought to take
> precedence.
If you want to use justice from the Xenaverse I think this arguement
will turn into a complete circus. We are argueing justice itself, not
taking this to a court in the Xenaverse.
> :> Xena didn't
> :> murder Callisto according to the laws of the Xenaverse, thus XENA DIDN'T
> :> MURDER CALLISTO. Plain and simple.
>
> : You see, argueing Xenaverse justice makes no sense because there really
> : is no justice in the xenaverse, if you and BDangelo argue in terms of
> : xenaverse justice you simply allow yourself to argue whatever you want.
> : In the Xenaverse I could kill a helpless child, and then bury it, and
> : nobody would find out, and then go back in time, and stop myself from
> : doing it, and slip into a parraellel universe, and find my mirror image,
> : and then me and my other two look alikes can become the three stooges,
> : you would be allowing yourself to prance around through imaginary
> : concepts that have nothing to do with the actual arguement, but
> : interfere.
>
> You say "the actual argument" like it isn't about XENA AND
> CALLISTO. YOU seem to want to argue about the concept of murder in a very
> general sense, as it pertains to the entire world, past, present, future,
> and in terms of spirituality and morality. But the actual argument is,
> given the circumstances the killing took place under and the rules of
> justice in the land where it happened, did Xena murder Callisto? And, in
> those terms, the answer is an emphatic "No!".
We are argueing whether Xena was guilty of murder. You are taking a
stance that in the courts of the Xenaverse Xena would be found innocent,
so she is innocent, and I say that is obsurd, becuase it's an inferior
system of justice. We *have to* argue justice because it would be
totally illogical to abide by Xenas laws, which also ironicly allows
people to be thrown into ponds attached to stones to determine thier
innocence, and also allows slavery. If we argue in a more optimal
system of justice we would have a much better idea of who is innocent
and who is guilty (as long as we abide by the exact physical conditions
of the Xenaverse)
> I don't want to argue philosophy with you. I might have once, but
> I'm sick of this argument and, frankly, I'm sick of you.
REally???
> The simple point
> is that, within the context of the show, Callisto's killing was justified
> and necessary. And, since this is a Xena newsgroup, I want to discuss
> XENA and the Xenaverse, and bloody little else.
So you are taking the cowardly route of argueing and taking this to a
stoneage law and order?
> But that's the point: They had a _different_ (I won't acknowlege
> the term "inferior", that is totally opinion. Theirs was less organized,
> perhaps, and probably more draconian, but it was by no means without its
> merits over today's systems) form of justice then, so today's rules can't
> be applied to a situation back THEN.
You must must be out of your mind if you are going to bring this
arguement down to stone age justice. I refuse to go there, and I
honestly think you must be pretty desperate if you are trying to take
this arguement before a stone age court in order to prove the "rightnes"
in this arguement.
> You are wrong. There is no absolute form of justice. What one man
> may see as just, another may see as a travesty. Justice comes down to
> beliefs, and one person may believe that it isn't just to EVER steal, much
> less when it's necessary. And even _necessary_ is up for debate. You
> cannot find a universal form of justice that every person believes, deep
> in their heart, to be true and have this justice be the same for
> everybody. It just doesn't work like that.
You see, this is where you are wrong. Justice is a mathematical
concept, there are more optimal forms of justice then others. Let me
break it down for you: Lets say there was a place: that said justice
was that you were a slave and anybody could and abuse you and the ones
you love whenever they want to, and lets say there was another place
that said you were totally free, and able to work. Which system do you
think is more optimal?
> Fine. Now say WHY. WHY do you disagree? No, I know, you think we
> have to KNOW that Callisto would commit crimes later.
> But what you DON'T say is how you justify your inaction in
> stopping Callisto when you had the chance to the people she harms later,
> if she does.
"If she does" being the keywords, nobody knows what she is going to do,
it's not your responsibility to be a mind reader.
> You never say how your system of justice is supposed to
> benefit THEM, the people who's safety you casually risked when you didn't
> contain or kill Callisto when you had the chance.
Nobodys life is being risked because nobody can be sure of whats going
to happen in the future. Risk is all over the place, it's a part of
life. Deal with it.
> KNOWING what someone will do in the future is a luxury you cannot
> afford when dealing with a person who's past record looks even HALF as bad
> as Callisto's or who's power is half as strong.
when it comes don't to justification it must be afforded. You can't
kill somebody that is innocent of a crime.
> Callisto was a GOD with a
> known record of violence against innocents and you choose to be SURE that
> she'll harm people before stopping her from EVER doing it again?
Stopping her is fine, killing is another story. If you kill an innocent
person you are guilty of murder, and thats the fact jack.
> She isn't DEFINITELY innocent, though. Callisto has committed
> crimes that are capital in ANY justice system already; the fact that you
> kill her from ever doing it again is merely prudence, she has too much to
> answer for already.
Woah...now hold your horses, we can not mutate the arguement any further
then it already has been mutated, your backed up into a corner now, and
your changing your stance again as you commonly do. We had already
cleared up why xena killed Callisto, you even admitted it to me on
numerous occasions "Xena murdered Callisto because Xena thought she
might commit crimes in the future" which was your stance, for the
"greater good" was your stance, and now that I have proven that as being
wrong(since you can't murder somebody for a crime they did not commit
and have it be justified), so now you are saying Callisto was murdered
for things she did in the past, which I can also argue as being wrong
and have already argued, and won, since you backed up in the "xena did
it for the greater good" stance, because in order for Xena to kill
Callisto for her past misdeeds she must also be able to justify her own
being killed for past misdeeds, and she must also justify revenge. The
fact that somebody did not change doesn't matter. What was Callisto
paying for when she died? No matter what it was it couldn't be
justified.
> But, even so, how do you justify risking more than one life to try
> and save only one?
how do you justify killing somebody for a crime they did not commit?
Lets focus on this arguement from now on, because it is the *heart* of
this whole arguement, and lets just kill this thread by confronting it
head on.
> Would you put your own life up as the stakes in this
> little game? If you were in Xena's position and you were told "Okay, you
> can try to heal Callisto, and if it works she doesn't die. Or, you can
> kill her now. Or, lastly, you can try to heal her and, if it doesn't work
> and she kills again, YOUR life is forfeit along with those she hurts.
> Choose." would you take that bet? Or, more to the point, what if you were
> one of those villagers that Callisto would hurt if she didn't change? What
> if your family was? Are THEIR lives worth trying to help Callisto?
> Remember, they only live is Callisto changes her ways...are you so sure
> she will that you will risk everything you care about to try?
> You are pretty casual with the lives of people that don't really
> exist. Could you do it with REAL people? I'm sorry, but if Callisto kills
> even ONE person the risk isn't worth it, IMHO.
I wouldn't know what Callisto was going to do, therefore I could not
judge her actions based on a guess.
> Had you taken Callisto
> down, that death would never happen. Sure, you don't KNOW Callisto would
> have killed that person, but you CAN see that it was likely. And with a
> record like Callisto's, she probably needs to die for her crimes anyway.
> Best to protect others FOR CERTAIN than risk their lives on a POSSIBILITY.
>
> : Not only that, but Xena with a past record parralell
> : to Callistos has no right to be the one making that decision.
>
> Sure she does. Xena has felt the rage and pain that Callisto has.
> Xena's done some of the things that Callisto has. She KNOWS what it's
> like, and she knows what it takes to change. There's no one better to
> recognize the chance for change than Xena. And if she doesn't see it in
> Callisto, she's prefectly justified in taking that blond bitch down to
> protect others.
I think that your being totally irrational.
> : You keep saying "one dies so that many may live" as if Callisto has
> : already commited the acts, or it's a sure fact that she will commit
> : these acts.
>
> No, I'm saying it like Callisto COULD, MIGHT, and PROBABLY WILL do
> these things. She's given no indication she wouldn't.
there was no indication that she would.
> YOU keep talking like Callisto has given a sign she will change or
> already HAS changed and definitely WON'T kill anyone ever again.
I talk as if I don't know what a person is going to do until I have
signs that they are going to do something.
> : Murdering the innocent is wrong, and I don't think you can
> : ever turn me over from this point of view.
>
> Callisto is NOT innocent. Perhaps she hasn't killed those
> villagers yet, and maybe she never will. But she HAS killed OTHER
> villagers for no reason other than to frame Xena.
So now we are argueing that Callisto is paying for past misdeeds? What
is your stance, be logical. Did Xena kill Callisto in revenge, or did
xena kill Callisto because of the invisible crimes she might commit in
the future? If both you can't keep me dancing back and forth, we argue
one topic, then move on to the next...not everything at once in a
flexibly illogical manner.
> Callisto murdered
> Perdicus JUST to make Gabrielle hurt and, through her, to make Xena hurt.
> If there's anything Callisto ISN'T, it's innocent.
She innocent of the crimes she *might* commit in the future until she
commits them, and that was the original point until you started
deviating again.
> :> Unfortunately, this says nothing about whether or not she'd kill
> :> again before she reformed her ways.
>
> : It does though, show that there is a *possibility* that she can reform
> : her ways.
>
> No, it doesn't. That's YOUR opinion, so it doesn't count.
The fact that Callisto *might* change in the future is no opinion...it's
a fact. The fact that Callsito can't change is an opinion...Got it?
> I think
> it shows that she's willing to fuck with Gabby's head. That's my opinion.
> Since we can't be certain about this point we have to throw it out because
> it doesn't give us any irrefutable FACTS.
the fact is that: at that time she *was* willing to open up, but only to
an extent...
> :> People are still at risk from her, and
> :> she cannot be neutralized without killing her. The choice is clear, she
> :> has to die to protect the greater good.
>
> : Lets organize some points, and see if we can clear some things up: Xena
> : killed Callisto for a crime she didn't commit.
>
> No. Xena killed Callisto for eveything she's EVER DONE. Her list
> of crimes is extensive.
now you have deviated from your previous arguements, and are argueing
that Callisto was killed due to her past misdeeds...I thinkt hat is a
sign of the fragilness of your arguement.
> Xena killed Callisto because she was making snide
> remarks about Xena's best friend dying. AND Xena killed Callisto because
> she represented a danger to the world at large.
So Xena killed in revenge of the remark. Killing over a remark is not
justifiable, so the remark is weightless in the arguement. So Xena also
killed Callisto because of the crimes she never committed, killing
somebody because of crimes they never committed, nor even gave
implications of committing, is not justifiable either.
> You cannot simplify this, nor put a spin on it like you have, and
> expect it to have any weight in your argument.
I'm not trying to, I am only forking over facts...
> I'm reporting FACT here
> while you're trying to make a mockery of everything I've said so far as
> well as inserting your own opinion into it.
Like it or not, but I am not trying to make a mockery of you, or your
opinions. In fact, I respect your opinions, and your facts.
> Xena was recpetive to change where Callisto was not.
Xena had more time, more people on her side, and given way more chances
then Callisto.
> : Xena was repsonisble for Cirra.
>
> Among other people. There was another warlord there, the men who
> started the fires without orders, etc.
I can't even believe I am argueing this, even Xena excepts the
responsibilty, why can't you?
> : All of these elements tell me that your
>
> "you're". How long till you get that right?
You know, I have found plenty of spelling errors with your documents,
but I never comment because it has nothing to do with the arguement, and
with every complaint about spelling I am losing respect for you, and I
think other people who read this are also...
> : wrong. The main point is that
> : killing somebody who is innocent of a crime is murder. Plain and
> : simple.
>
> Killing someone innocent of a crime is not always murder. My
> example at the firing range, for example. Killing someone who is a danger
> to others is often PRAISED, not condemned.
So, you agree with executing people for crimes they never committed, you
agree with executing innocent people? Callisto gave no impression that
she was going to kill, she was just standing there. Your analogy at the
firing range relys greatly on that the person is wielding a gun and
pointing it at people, whereas Callisto would have been simply holding
onto a gun with no intention of using.
> :> Well what would YOU suggest, keeping in mind that I won't accept
> :> any solution that doesn't protect the people who would die at the hands of
> :> the 99 evil ones...?
>
> : Hey, should we tear down all the buildings in new york because they
> : might crush somone? Should we stop taking airplanes because they might
> : crash? Should we not drive because we might get into a car accident?
>
> Nice fucking evasion, butt-munch. How about answering the
> question? The problem given is that we KNOW those 99 men are evil and that
> 1 is good. We KNOW those 99 men will kill and the 1 man will do supposedly
> good things.
> Now, WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO SAVE THE PEOPLE THOSE 99 MEN WOULD
> VICTIMZE, hmm? We aren't talking about buildings, which represent a
> passive danger, we're talking about concious men who live to kill,
Buildings represent a potential danger, as does callisto, and thats how
the analogy is similar. but lets, cast aside all these analo
> pillage, rape, and loot. HOW DO YOU STOP THEM if your goal is to save the
> life of the 1 "good" man? Answer the question. Stop evading it. If you
> can't answer it, SAY SO.
I never made up that analogy, and I refuse to answer it because it is a
bad analogy. The analogy relies on the fact that 99 men *WILL* be
victimized, whereas in reality the situation with Callisto is very
different.
It is a FACT that Callisto *might* have changed, that much is not
opinion. It is not a fact to think that she *could not* change.
> The
> only thing left to do IS guess, and weight the risks of killing her
> against NOT killing her.
there is no guessing, FACTS, remember. If you want me to discuss facts,
you have to also.
> Case AGAINST killing her, as presented by you: We have a chance to
> save Callisto's soul, or whatever, and bring her back from the edge of
> insanity to see the error of her ways. We could help her and she may not
> kill again.
Case against killing her as presented by me: she didn't do anything to
anybody, she was just standing there.
> Case FOR killing her, as presented by me: Callisto has given us no
> way to know whether or not she will kill again. Her past record has shown
> that, in all likelyhood, she WILL. Better to be safe than sorry, better
> that one should die to protect others. Even without PROOF that she will do
> it again, we have no PROOF she WON'T and that makes her a risk. Her powers
> keep her from being detainable and she has escaped many times as a mortal
> anyway. Her past crimes condemn her already, her potential crimes cannot
> be tolerated. Her life is forfeit.
...until next time TARK!
Rubicant
>
> >I don't believe that debating is about being "against" the other person.
>
> Actually, your views and opinions do seem to be AGAINST other peoples views and
> opinions in arguements and debates...
Yes they are, but the purpose of argueing is to learn, not to be against
somebody else, why do you think I'd waste all this time writing to you
if I wasn't learning anything?
> >> You say you think Xena owes it to Callisto to try and help her
> >
> >I believe that if Xena can justify the fact that she is still alive
> >right now, and not dead (from somebody killing her because they thought
> >she was unchangable as a warlord), then she can't justify killing
> >Callisto. How do I believe this? Xena had truck loads of time to
> >change, and various people who were on her side helping her change
> >throughout the years, whereas Callisto barely had any help from anyone,
> >everyone seemed to have given up before even trying. <<
>
> LIKE I SAID BEFORE, WHICH YOU SNIPPED OFF,
sorry...
> Xena also barely had ANY help.
That is far from the truth, I feel like I'm either being redundant, or
you simply ignore facts that work against the favor of your arguement.
Xena had the amazons (which she slaughtered) she had Borias, she had
Gabrielle, she had hercules, she had Lao Ma, Solan, Cyan, Xena had
plenty of help, these are the FACTS you desperately claim I don't/can't
provide...
> And,
> MOST LIKELY, when Xena was a warlord, more people feared her than wanted to
> help her. It took 10 years for someone (Herc) to come along to finally give her
> a little push. The push Herc gave Xena was pretty much equal to the push Xena
> tried to give Callisto.
> IF YOU'VE SEEN "The Gauntlet" and "Unchained Heart": in
> TG, Xena fights Herc, gets defeated by Herc, Herc offers to help her and ask
> her to join them etc. etc., Xena REFUSES and runs off, she later returns and
> helps them fight. SO IT WOULD SEEM, in her alone time, Xena igured out BY
> HERSELF to change. Then, in UH, Hercules ACTUALLY SAID Xena changed because SHE
> WANTED TO, SHE DID IT HERSELF. So it should be the same for Callisto, that is,
> unless she was TOTALLY EVIL AND DIDN'T WANT TO CHANGE...
Xena changed because she had time, and help; two things that Callisto
did not have, but deserved as much as Xena did.
> >I consider Xenas justice to be a little out of balance because of this,
> >also the fact that Xena -was- responsible for Cirra (we can't even
> >debate this, because Xena has excepted the responsiblity regardless if
> >you like it or not, Xena -was- responsible for Cirra) and therefore Xena
> >-was- responsible for Callistos familly, friends, and town being burned
> >away.
> >Among all of this, I think Xena owes it to Callisto to at least give a
> >-sporting- try to help Callisto through talking with her...hey, it
> >couldn't hurt.
>
> Xena DID try to help. She did as much as she could and as much as Herc did for
> her. It's Callisto's and ONLY Callisto's responsibility to change...
I agree that it's Callisto responsiblity to change, but I believe that
it was Xenas responsiblity to give a good sporting try to help change
Callisto because Xena had 5x more help then Callisto, and way more time,
as well as the fact that Xena did destroy Callistos village, and for
that owes it to Callisto to at least *try* and help her. Herc didn't
kill Xenas familly, therefore Xena wasn't his obligation.
> >> that Callisto
> >> could have changed, that Callisto really had feelings, she wanted and
> >needed
> >> love, etc.
> >
> >Callisto was definitely fighting for justice, she just has a different
> >way of going about things. This was not only implied, but directly
> >stated on the show. She even stated that she was "misunderstood" which
> >is obvious. <<
>
> You really think she was fighting for justice?? Yeah, ok, maybe HER idea of
> justice, which is, of course, all about revenge...
yes, your absoloutely right, Callisto was subconciously confused, not
evil.
> >> It was also implied that she was an average normal village
> >girl who loved her familly. The fact that she loved her familly goes to
> >show us that it is possible for Callisto to love, and not hate. <<
>
> Oh and remember in Armageddon Now Pt. 2 after her parents were killed? Remember
> how young Callisto cried over the sadness of losing her parents? No, dont
> remember? Oh wait, I FORGOT, that's because she DIDN'T cry... Okay, maybe it
> was shock, but then again, she was still able to say something to Iolaus, which
> seemingly means, she never really had ANY feelings at all.
You just said you believed Callisto was fighting for revenge, are you
now changing stances and claiming that Callisto doesn't really care
about her parents at all??? Is that, like how you operate in an
arguement? You change your stance whenever it suits you? Thats
completely obsurd, why in the hell would Callisto go through all this
revenge business had she not cared about her parents? I don't
understand you, are you claiming that Callisto was just born evil? I
think thats a pretty ignorant thing to think that some people are just
born evil.
> >> If you
> >think about it, the whole reason Callisto started maiming people was in
> >vengence of her parents death, it's obvious she feels the world is
> >guilty for letting her parents die, especially Xena. Now lets think:
> >Why would Callisto blame the world for her parents death, and not just
> >Xena? Do you have any ideas?
> >A logical explaination I can think of is that: she believes that if the
> >world can -let- somebody with such a hideuos past as Xenas make amends
> >(and put her past behind her), the world must not have been intorducced
> >to the Xena Callisto remembers. If the world can justify Xena being
> >free of her past, they must not know (all the pain Xena has caused in
> >her wake), or they must be stupid, or evil enough to justify such an
> >act. It's all subconcious, I know none of this is *fact* but it
> >certainly fits fine in my opinion, and is a possible scenerio for whats
> >going on in Callisto mind.
>
> Its ALL SPECULATION AND GUESSING. I can't accept speculation and guessing as a
> good back-up to your arguement.
First of all, my speculation was never intended (or needed) to be a fact
to suit my arguement, it was just a likely situation I came up with,
because there really is no other explaination as to why Callisto would
blame the world for her parents death, can you think of a better reason
why Callisto blames the world for her parents death?
If you don't accept speculation and guessing, then how in the hell can I
accept the fact the fact that you and TarkD's entire arguement that Xena
is not guilty relys strictly on the guess that Callisto *might* kill
somebody and she deserves to die based on a guess...thats not a fact,
Callisto was not predestined to kill somebody, so how can you claim that
Xena is innocent of murder?
> Don't even bother saying it unless you can back
> it up with FACT. Not that opinions are bad, but if u wanna discuss opinions go
> post your top 10 episodes and talk about that, ok?
If you want to discuss fact here it is, knocking your entire arguement
down like a brick wall: Xena killed Callisto for a crime she *might*
commit (as is the basis of you and TarkD's arguement), therefore she
killed Callisto for a crime that never happened, and crime she was
innocent of. Xena killed a person for a crime she was innocent of, and
simply put: thats murder.
> >That Xena owed it to Callisto to change, I consider to be fact, but that
> >Callisto could have changed, I consider to be an opinion, and wouldn't
> >argue otherwise.
>
> No, actually, thinking Xena owed it to Callisto to change IS your opinion,
> being that your reasons why u think she owes it to Callisto to help her change
> ARE opinions...understand?
No, there is no opinion on this matter. When you create a situation,
it's your responsibility to deal with it, Xena started a grudge back in
Cirra, and now it's her responsibility to deal with it. When it stops
becoming opinion is when it becomes a contradiction, if Xena can justify
the fact that she is still alive, even though she was at one time
parrallel to Callisto, she must not be able to justify the death of
Callisto. You can argue that Xena changed eventually, but at the same
time I could argue that Callisto may have changed in the future also
(the fact that she *might* have changed is a fact), so there is a
contradiction in Xenas mentailty, either Callisto dies, and Xena kills
herself, or Xena leaves both of them alive, and tries to help Callisto.
> >I don't consider that to be a contradiction at all, why can't both
> >scenarios coexist at the same time? Xena owes it to Callisto to *try*
> >to help her change, but at the same time Callisto actions are still
> >Callistos responsiblity. I don't exactly consider it Xenas
> >responsiblity *to* change Callisto, just to give it a really good
> >sporting try.
>
> If you don't think Xena tried, PLEASE go re-watch The Gauntlet and Unchained
> Heart. Hercules barely does anything. Xena, it seems, did most of the changing
> on her own will, as proved by the events and dialogue in the 2 episodes...
Xena changed because she had alot of time, and help. Callisto did not
change because she didn't have the help she needed. Honestly, I only
recall three times in which anyone even tried to talk to her, and all of
those times were totally pathetic beyond even discussion.
> >> But, like I said, you try to disprove our facts with your strong opinions.
> >
> >these are not opinions...the fact that 4 + 4 = 8 is not an opinion, it's
> >a mathematical concept of our physical world, just like justice is a
> >mathematical concept of our physical world.
>
> I don't know what you're trying to say, but your opinions ARE opinions... makes
> sense, right? opinion = opinion, 'nuff said.
no, executing somebody for a crime they did not commit is not justice,
that is *not* my opinion, it's a general rule of justice, I don't care
how much you and TarkD like to prance around pretending you don't know
what I'm talking about, and shifting your position on certain topics to
suit your arguement.
> >I don't think Callisto deserved to die the way she did, though at the
> >same time I do believe she was asking for it, and deserved to die
> >eventually...that is *ASSUMING* she were to contiue on the way she was,
> >being a menace.
> >
>
> Well, since there IS no way to prove that she wouldn't be a killing machine
> later on, but there IS proof to come to a conclusion she most likely WOULD and
> easily COULD kill again, u could just simply say she did deserve to die, plain
> and simple.
Well, no your wrong again. You can't just say I think somebody might
kill somebody, so I have justifiable right to execute them at any time,
that is completely obsurd. It goes against basic justice...You can't
turn things inside out and say, well, since there is no proof they
*will* kill again, and there no proof the *wont* kill again, I'm just
going to have to kill them, that is also completely obsurd, since we are
all guilty of possibly murdering somebody else. Your guilty of possibly
murdering somebody, do you think you deserve to die? no. It's obsurd,
killing somebody due to a crime that never happened is obsurd, your
whole arguement is obsurd.
> >> Well, you STILL don't seem to get it: THIS IS NOT OUR WORLD. THIS IS NOT
> >OUR
> >> COURT SYSTEM. THERE ARE NO REAL GODS. You think a person as powerful as
> >> Callisto would be let roam around in ANY world? Umm, DOUBTFUL.
> >
> >Now you are taking your end of the arguement into the fantasy realm of
> >the xenaverse, which is a cowardly thing to do in an arguement, >>
>
> Hey, know what's even MORE cowardly??? Doing what you just did. I bring up a
> good point, you say it's irrelevant... EXCUSE ME? This is the XENA news group,
> isnt it? It really only makes sense, therefore, to talk about characters and
> events in the XENAVERS. Like, DUH...
What point are you talking about? I don't even know what you are
talking about, your so vague.
> <<because
> >the instant we base ourselves on the laws of the xenaverse (which are
> >the laws of fantasy) everything turns upsidedown, and this arguement
> >will have no weight because we are argueing fantasy elements.>>
>
> Dude, it doesn't make sense, the words you are saying! You CANT compare fantasy
> worlds to the real world, sorry, you can't. And if that's what you're doing,
> then shut up with the whole arguement.
Are you trying to argue with me within a fantasy worlds system of
justice??? I can't believe this. What the hell are you argueing? How
the hell are we suppossed to argue this in a fantasy based mentality?
It would be completely irrational, just as everything you are saying is
totally irrational. we *must* argue this based on justice in general,
and justice in general dictates not murdering people innocent of a
crime.
> This IS the Xena newsgroup, about the
> Xena show, where we discuss Xena characters, Xena episodes, Xean stories, and
> everything Xena-related. So when we say it was just for Callisto to die, we're
> speaking in terms of how things work IN THE XENAVERSE. Which makes sense,
> because (say it with me) THIS IS THE XENA NEWS GROUP!
If you want to argue justice based in a flexible world that seems to
have no real justice anyhow you must be completely insane or you must
think I'm stupid enough to listen to you turn this arguement into clay
so you can mold it into anything you like, and we wont even be argueing
the show
> >> I though,
> >refuse to go there, because anyone of us could say: hey why didn't Xena
> >just go back in time and stop Cirra from being destroyed or something
> >stupid, and crazy like that, and I'm not going there...I'm not argueing
> >whether mickey mouse could hop onto the screen and dance for Callisto.
> >I am argueing basic laws of justice, and whether what Xena did can be
> >justified from these basic rational concepts, our system of justice
> >today is closest to the optimal form of justice (at least closer then
> >the Xenaverse), so if anything we should argue the Xena facts in
> >nowadays reality form of justice. We are talking about justice. By law
> >of basic Justice one should not be executed for a crime they did not
> >commit, end of story.
>
> THEN DON'T AGRUE AT ALL. YOU make no sense, ok? If u wanna argue about THIS
> WORLD'S (the real world) courts and justice, go to a current events newsgroup,
> not this, the XENA news group, ok?
We are not argueing hinds, we are not argueing time travel, we are
argueing justice. Not justice in the Xenaverse, not justice in our
world, but Justice in general...
> >> It's like (in
> >> today's world) letting a person run around with an atom bomb. What would
> >that
> >> person do with it?
> >
> >It's hardly an atomic bomb, it's more like somebody walking around
> >strapped with weapons, and grenades and stuff.
>
> OK, here's a little lesson: can the atom bomb kill thousands of people? YES.
> Can Callisto kill thousands of people? YES.
An atomic bomb can kill millions of people, but there hasn't been
anything at all that indicates callisto will murder thousands of
innocent people, Callisto mostly just murdered people in her way while
she was trying to get revenge against Xena.
> If we bend justice around into silly putty that will *not* be
> >for the greater good, because it will cause alot more havok then
> >anything Callisto could dish out.
> >
> >-Rubicant- (Lazarus)
>
> I don't understand what about this you think is 'bending the law'....
>
> BD
Well, I'll explain it to you: You don't kill people for crimes they did
not commit. does that compute? If our system of justice allows us to
kill people for crimes we think they might commit then we might as well
flush justice down the toilet, because it makes no sense...
...
calli...@iname.com
> Callisto isn't worth talking to because she's only trying
> to bait Xena.
Callisto is not likely to be someone you'd enjoy a conversation with. The
point of talking with her is to try to make her better. Callisto probably
*was* trying to bait Xena. The point is that, regardless of what Callisto's
goals were in talking, she *was* willing to talk and hear what Xena had to
say. You can just about *expect* that what she did say usually wouldn't be
indicative of a normal person or someone who wanted to change and that she'd
often have ulterior motives.
> A smart hero doesn't listen to their enemies' chatter
> because it's too easy to be tricked into some sort of
> deul to the death or looking at things in such a way that
> maybe all those killings weren't quite so bad after all...
You're right. Once Xena had decided not to try to help Callisto, it was
only sensible not to listen to her.
> If I was Xena, I wouldn't just put my head on the block,
> but since Callisto won't seem to accept anything less,
> what's the point in trying?
The point in trying is to get her to want different things, not to try to
give her what she wants (Xena's head on the block).
> Callisto was unreasonable, like a child. She wanted what
> she wanted and notbing else would do. If this isn't a
> sign of her actual insanity, you're not looking hard
> enough.
This is the last quote I'll respond to directly because its just variations
on the same theme. You just said that Callisto was unreasonable like a
child. And then you try to use that to indicate that she's insane. No, the
more likely conclusion is that she's just that, immature "like a child."
Still the girl whose village was destroyed and lost her parental guidance
before she was fully grown.
I snip the rest of the points because everything else I can respond to in a
general form or by saying that what I was doing was not pointing out what I
necessarily believed to be true of Xena's thoughts and motivations, but
pointing out how it would be understandable for Callisto to look at
situations a certain way and Xena does nothing to indicate that what
Callisto likely assumes to be true isn't, in fact, true. Xena won't say
anything even when Callisto asks her flat out.
I concede that a number of my examples were a stretch, so I won’t try to
argue them further as they are only possibilities and my purpose was only to
show that Callisto was not helped, and that the signs that she was beyond
help were not conclusive and that there were some examples that she *would*
be receptive to help.
First let me dismiss the argument that Xena ‘made’ Callisto in the past. I
agree that this is not true. Everyone is responsible for their actions and
has free will. You can’t literally make someone become something. (If you
could, everyone who had the kind of thing happen them that Callisto did
would turn out like her.) By the same token, Xena can’t ‘make’ Callisto
change into someone good in the present if she doesn’t want to. However,
this is only part of the story. You can do things that you think, in your
judgment, will have a certain effect on other people, which thus
*indirectly* does lead to them changing if your actions have the effect that
you intend them to. For example, if Xena, in a way that seemed genuine to
Callisto, showed sympathy for Callisto’s plight, while at the same time
trying to show her that there were better ways of dealing with things, that
might give her some motivation to change.
Your opinion is that trying to help Callisto isn’t worth the risk of
failure. So your solution is either to imprison her or execute her right
away if imprisonment is impractical. My opinion is that Xena should have
talked with Callisto as long as Callisto was willing to talk during times
when Callisto was not being a threat to others, such as when she was
contained or when she had Xena contained.
Now, you could argue that Xena not talking gives her more time to think of
how to stop Callisto by physical avenues of attack, and you would be right,
but it again just gets down to one’s opinion about how much risk is
acceptable. I see it as being a pretty small risk in situations like this,
and I don’t think there’s really any way to be very sure of how great the
relative risks are of the different alternatives. For example, Xena trying
to stop Callisto increases the risk of Callisto harming others for the
simple reason that Callisto will try to defend herself, as anyone would.
(You can argue that Callisto would kill anyway, but that is only a risk,
too, one that might be eliminated by just talking with her.) She’ll
endanger innocents to distract Xena, for example, as she did in “Return of
Callisto.” If Callisto hadn't decided that torturing Xena was better than
killing her, Xena would be dead now. If Callisto did turn out to be
receptive to being helped, there would be no risk of innocent bystanders
being hurt in the attacks necessary to stop her by physical means, no risk
of her escaping from prison. Not to mention the risk of cycle of hate
continuing. I agree that it *might* end with Callisto, but there might be
people who would want to take revenge. Just because we, as viewers, didn’t
see any doesn’t mean Xena can assume there aren’t any. Hey, maybe Theodorus
might want revenge. And then, of course, there’s always the personal risk
to Xena. We tend to see Xena as invincible, but she can be killed and
Callisto was depicted as near her level of skill. Callisto could have
killed her a number of times. There are all kinds of risks for both courses
of action, not just in trying to help Callisto. You talk like the option of
Xena trying to stop Callisto physically is certain of success and thus its
unconscionable for anyone to do otherwise. Take Xena stabbing Callisto with
the Hind's blood dagger, for example. If Xena did this out of consideration
for what was most likely to effect the greater good, consider that Callisto
was a skilled warrior and its *very* likely that Callisto could have evaded
a directed thrust into her chest. Xena was taking a *huge* chance with that
if she thought Callisto genuinely wanted to live. She was assuming that
Callisto was so out of it that she could turn all the way around with a loud
cry of anger and be able to stab Callisto, who knew she had the Hind's blood
dagger, who had been focused on and thinking about the Hind's blood dagger
most of the episode, directly into her chest. If she failed with that
thrust, Callisto was a god who could "kill her in an instant" as she said
earlier (and there weren't any rocks handy overhead), and then be free to
roam about the world enjoying the suffering of others (if that is the reason
Xena justified killing her with). I don’t think its nearly as clear cut as
you make out that the risk presented by trying to stop Callisto physically
greatly outweighs the risk of trying to get her to stop herself. For one
thing, I think there are numerous signs that Callisto could be receptive to
help, as I’ve written endlessly about. Nothing conclusive, of course, like
“Xena, I want to change.” Only signs that warrant exploration. And yes, I
absolutely agree that there are also signs that could well indicate that she
*wouldn’t* be receptive to change. Part of this argument about not knowing
what all *could* be, for me, is significant in that Xena should try to *find
out*. All Xena has to go by is what she happens to see. She could find out
conclusively, in her judgment, whether Callisto seemed capable of changing
by making an attempt to help her change. You have tried to argue that
attempts were made to help Callisto change and that their failure makes the
likelihood of future success infinitessimal, but you have not come up with a
single example of Xena trying to *help* Callisto. You've managed to come up
with alternate interpretations of what my interpretations of scenes were,
but I only gave those examples to show that there was not a single instance
of a genuine attempt at help made and nothing you came up with disputed
that. You've tried to call "help": Xena apologizing and even that Xena
tried to get Callisto a fair trial. That is clearly of no help in
*changing* Callisto. Xena is "helping" only herself with these actions and,
probabilistically, society as a whole. So Xena did nothing. Its beside the
point I'm making, but maybe you'll try to use Gabrielle instead with the
example of the campfire scene in "A Necessary Evil." This scene is totally
irrelevant to the point that Xena had no reason to think that Callisto
wouldn't have changed with help because *Xena never witnessed it*. Only
Gabrielle did. And while it is reasonable to assume there was an
implication that Gabrielle might have tried to help Callisto if the
conversation had continued, the fact is all Gabrielle said was "When we were
at the village, and Xena was talking about Cirra, did you feel anything?"
To me, that indicates that Gabrielle still believed Callisto's heart to have
been "eaten away by hatred" as she said in "Callisto" and she was just
confirming that to make herself feel better because she saw how Callisto
looked after Xena's apology, which could have been read different ways. (I
concede that I was a little too certain of my interpretation last time. Its
plausible that Callisto could be seen here as merely being angry, pained,
and disappointed at both the lack of reaction from the villagers witnessing
the apology and at the sincerity of Xena's apology.) That's how I think
Callisto would be inclined to look at it, if you put yourself in her shoes.
It didn't help the way Gabrielle added "Answer me. Or are you afraid?" But
my point remains that there *was no help* given to Callisto. But I'm sure
you feel that's justifiable in some way. You've said Xena owes her nothing.
Well, no one *owes* anyone *anything* that they haven't intentionally taken
from them or already agreed to give them. If, while walking along the
beach, you see someone drowning and calling for help, you don't *owe* it to
them to save them. But is it the right thing to do? I think so. I
wouldn't necessarily condemn someone who didn't, but I sure wouldn't have
much respect for them. Now let's play with it a bit and say maybe there's
some risk that if you jump in to try to save the person, you'll drown, too,
since you're not that good of a swimmer. And maybe there's a lifeguard off
in the distanc coming to help. And maybe you recognize the person as being
someone who has escaped prison. There are always risks. You just have to
decide in every case what is reasonable. I've tried show the risks on both
sides in this case. IMO, its far from conclusive that the risk of trying to
help Callisto is significantly greater than the risk of trying to contain or
kill her, especially given the fact that killing or containing Callisto has
*FAILED* *many* times (She'll be coming back yet again on the series. Maybe
Xena'll get it right next time. :-), and that the alternative option of
helping her has *never* even been attempted once. Xena's energies and
efforts can always be directed at trying to find ways to stop Callisto
physically or they can be directed at getting Callisto to stop herself.
Given the track record of the former approach, I'd say it was past time to
try the latter. I can also make yet another argument of why the alternative
of helping Callisto was likely to effective: Callisto was honest. You've
mentioned many times that we could never go by what Callisto says she would
do in the future because she could just lie and go right back to killing
innocents. But when has she ever lied about her feelings or intentions?
For example, if you recall, when Xena asked Callisto what she would do if
she let her go, Callisto told her the exact truth, that she would go on
killing to hurt Xena. When Gabrielle asked her what she felt during Xena's
apology in "A Necessary Evil," Callisto was honest, IMO. Now you can have
your own interpretation of that if you like, but I doubt you can come up
with any instances where Callisto actively lied to Xena. You might be able
to construe a few lies by omission, but when you throw something at Callisto
straight out, she'll tell you the truth (often harsh truths :-).
You ask what all Xena could have done. The general idea remains of just
having a talk with her. She doesn't even have to go in with anything in
mind planned to say. If she would just listen to Callisto so that Callisto
felt like Xena understood her, that would go a long way, and Xena could
respond honestly with her reactions to what Callisto said, not with flip
remarks like "You never wrote" that make fun of her and trivialize
Callisto's *legitimate* grievance with things Xena has done in the past.
I think when Xena refuses to talk, she is forcing Callisto to act (I don’t
mean this literally, just as making a reasonable judgment at how people are
likely to react to things.), and we know how Callisto’s actions usually turn
out. Take, for example, “Return of Callisto.” Callisto says “I long to see
you wailing over the body of your friend” after Xena has just stopped her
from killing Gabrielle. Xena just says in response “Well, its not going to
happen.” That is like a challenge. Like saying “I don’t think you can.”
She’s almost daring Callisto to attack. Why couldn’t she have said instead
something like “You’ll have to kill me to get to her. I thought you didn’t
want to kill me yet.” That would have confronted Callisto with the fact
that she had told Xena that she wouldn’t kill her because she wanted to kill
her soul first. Callisto might not have attacked then because there would
have been an alternative. She could have responded and talked.
Another thing that might help this discussion is a clear definition of
"murder." (Just for the record, I probably wouldn't use the term "murder"
to describe Xena's killing of Callisto. Its probably close, but its too
ambiguous to use such a judgmental term. If Xena killed Callisto for the
greater good, it wasn't "murder," as that has a definite implication of
something not done for the greater good. We execute convicted criminals
today, but we don't call it murder. Whether its just or not, I'm not trying
to debate. It does, statistically, seem likely that it results in the
greatest number of lives saved. But why I'm bringing the term "murder" up I
describe herewith:) Besides "unlawful," most of the definitions I see
involve the word 'malice.' IMO, it was pretty clear that Xena had shown
throughout the episode "Sacrifice II" that she bore
anger/hatred/malice/whatever toward Callisto. To a large extent, this is
understandable. I wouldn't expect her not to. But what clouds the issue is
whether, when she killed Callisto, it was done out of malice or out of
motivation for the greater good to eliminate a potential risk to people's
safety. I find it very difficult to believe that Xena's motivation was at
all, in fact, the greater good, because she had chosen earlier in the
episode to not only ignore the greater good, but also to do something
directly counter to it solely out of anger. Callisto asked Xena to kill
her. She’ll do Xena’s job for her—stop herself from being a threat. Xena
refused to do so. I don't see any way to argue that Xena's refusal to kill
Callisto was done out of anything other than anger. You can try to argue
that Xena was motivated by the greater good *in addition* to anger, but the
example I'm giving directly contradicts that. If Xena viewed Callisto as a
risky potential threat, why not agree to kill her from the beginning? Tell
her "Alright, Callisto, I'll kill you after I kill Hope." If Xena had
agreed to kill her, Callisto would have done whatever Xena wanted. She
would even have helped Xena hurry up and kill Hope. Yet Xena told her "May
you live forever." May *Callisto*, who has murdered countless innocents as
you so often remind us, live forever. Xena is fortunate that Callisto
didn't burn one of Gabrielle's appendages off after that and tell Xena that,
if she didn't agree to kill her, she would burn the rest of her and every
innocent person within a hundred miles.
That leads to my other point. (Note I'm shifting gears now to my other
point that Callisto showed signs that she might be receptive to attempts to
help her. I'm not trying to argue that she showed signs of wanting to
change. I'm only arguing that she showed signs that, if someone tried to
help her, they might have a chance.) Why didn't Callisto threaten to kill
Gabrielle and anyone else she could think of? She could have. It would
almost certainly have gotten her Xena's compliance in killing her. Either
Callisto was such a wreck by that point that the thought didn't even occur
to her, in which case its reasonable to think that talking to her might have
a different effect than it would have in the past, or she was no longer so
willing to hurt others. Don't try to cite the evidence later in the episode
that Callisto may have caused unnecessary harm in a village. Xena didn't
know this *then*. I'm pointing out what evidence there was for Xena *at
that time*. And I don't really expect Xena to have tried to talk to her
*then* because she had Hope to deal with. My point is that there *were*
reasons to think that Callisto could change. And while that point doesn't
*prove* the argument that Xena killed Callisto solely out of being overcome
by anger, it adds weight to it. I don't think its totally unreasonable to
think that Xena may have killed Callisto for the greater good, but I do
think it seems pretty unlikely, given all that I have described. There
really is no way to know, when a person is in an emotional state (which Xena
certainly was, having thought Gabrielle had just given her life for her),
whether their own personal desires interfere with their rational judgment
and assessment of a situation. But anger is a very consuming thing, as the
story of Callisto has so poignantly illustrated. When Xena stabbed
Callisto, she did it after a long, *angry* cry. That telegraphed her blow.
That indicates to me that Xena was out of control and therefore not thinking
straight. That she was possessed by fit of rage. IMO, since Callisto
hadn't actually said that she wouldn't kill innocents anymore, Xena didn't
feel anything holding her back from killing Callisto. She could release her
anger and not feel too bad about it afterward. (Nowdays, we sometimes call
this kind of thing a "conflict of interest.") Xena seemed *very* angry to
me throughout the episode. Both Ares and Gabrielle (and Callisto, I might
add :-) noted that it was interfering with Xena's better judgment that she
was taking things so personally. So, in conclusion, I'm only going to go so
far as to say that it *appeared* *to me* that Xena killed Callisto out of
anger because I had gotten the feeling throughout both episodes that Xena
was letting her feelings get the best of her and make decisions that were
either wrong or worse than other alternatives. And remember that Xena
killed Callisto on the spur of the moment. That is something people acting
in anger do. While you can argue that if she had waited, Callisto would
have had her senses more about her and been better able to defend herself,
the fact remains that Xena killed Callisto on the spur of the moment, and
thus did not have much time to make a decision based on evidence that had
come to light recently nor to consider what Callisto really had in mind when
she said that she had reason to go on living. There is no question that
Xena has tried to execute Callisto before. IMO, Xena deemed Callisto an
unacceptable risk right from the first episode of Callisto's appearance.
Xena's solution has *always* been to kill Callisto (or imprison her), not to
try to change her. But this time there was IMO *much* reason to believe
that Callisto might not go on murdering innocents because she had told Xena
in no uncertain terms that she no longer was motivated by revenge to hurt
Xena. And it was for the specific reason that others' suffering did not end
her pain. This had gone on for a long time and was clearly established.
The only thing at all that Callisto wanted was to die. I thought this was
also clearly established. The Callisto who wanted to die was much less of a
threat than the earlier Callisto. Callisto still might have killed people
along the way to her goal of suicide, but my point is that Callisto would
have died either way, whether Xena tried to talk to her or not. Xena could
have tried to give Callisto a good reason for living. Callisto was almost
like a blank slate then. Like a piece of clay that could be molded any way
Xena chose. Callisto's old ways she had given up on. Xena just had to show
her new ones. It couldn't have possibly been any easier for Xena unless
Callisto had said "I want to change, Xena. Help me, please." In "Maternal
Instincts," Xena had nothing else that required her attention. I can excuse
not making an active effort in "Sacrifice" because Hope was a priority, but
by being antagonistic to Callisto, she only encourages Callisto to go right
on killing people. She's giving Callisto reasons to hate her again. She
was lucky Callisto was so out of it that insulting her didn't make her
angry. Xena sickened me with the way she treated Callisto, who was so far
gone, I could barely stand to watch her. Her dignity and self-confidence
were gone and Xena was about as harsh as I've ever seen her. The fact that
Callisto didn't cause or even threaten to cause harm to anyone is proof in
my mind that she had changed radically. This is just one more thing that
makes me think that Xena wasn't thinking rationally and choosing things on
the basis of the greater good.
I've described already how very clearly it seemed to me that Callisto's new
reason to live at the end was not sincere. Most everyone I've read thought
it rang false. And yet Xena didn't? Xena, the person you espouse to be the
best person at judging Callisto, and how susceptible she might be to change.
That's what your argument presumes unless you try to argue that Xena saw
that Callisto was just trying to goad her into stabbing her with the dagger,
but if you argue that, Xena looks even worse because then she would be
killing a person who wanted to die simply because she couldn't deal with the
pain in her life and had nothing of meaning to motivate her to live. I'd
like to see you argue that a person like that is still such a great threat
to society that it would have been unconscionable for Xena to even take the
risk of talking with her. If she can't reach Callisto with talking, and
Callisto will only accept death, *then* Xena could have gone ahead and
stabbed her. At the very least she could say she *tried* to help Callisto
at least once out of all the opportunities she had. You probably think that
Callisto putting a hand to Xena's cheek after she stabbed her was something
like further evidence that she was a wingnut or something of the like that
you've made support your existing opinions in some way, but I don't and I
think I've just about said all I can without starting to go in circles and
repeat the same objections to your objections. Take it for whatever its
worth.
-- Callistoee
Jason C. Leach <calli...@yahoo.com>
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
BDangelico
gonna say one thing. WHY are you here? WHY are you agrueing about REAL LIFE
justice for a FICTIONAL show with FICTIONAL people in a FICTIONAL world with a
FICTIONAL way things work? I don't understand that... YOU say that I'm insane
for arguing, when, in reality, YOU are the messed-up one. If you wanna argue
about the REAL WORLD'S justice and court systems, like I said before, go to a
current events news group, ok? Im sure there's plenty of controversial issues
to discuss about REAL WORLD events some other place... But if you post here, at
the XENA NEWS GROUP, don't make a whole huge stupid arguement based on how
things work in THE REAL WORLD, please? It just doesn't make sense.... and
that's a fact.
BD
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: ta...@IfYouSpamMeIWillHaveYouKilled.cris.com wrote:
:>
:> There's no such THING as universal justice. It doesn't exist.
: like I said before, it's a mathematical concept, like time or space...It
: does exist, not physicly, but mentaly.
No, freakshow, it doesn't exist AT ALL. It's not a concept that
exists outside the tangible world, it DOESN'T EXIST AT ALL.
There is no ONE code of justice that the entire human population
or the entire universe or whatever has locked deep in their subconcious.
Justice is whatever you, individually, percieve it to be, which is why
it's so often that people don't feel they're getting it.
:> NOBODY believes in the same justice as anyone else, everybody has their
:> own concept, that's why there are LAWS written so that any justice dished
:> out is fair and equal for everybody. If there was universal justice we
:> would only need people to enforce it, not people to write it all down,
:> interpret it, defend it, etc. because it would already be universally
:> known.
:> Justice in the Xenaverse is the justice that would apply to the
:> situation with Xena/Callisto, so that's the justice that ought to take
:> precedence.
: If you want to use justice from the Xenaverse I think this arguement
: will turn into a complete circus. We are argueing justice itself, not
: taking this to a court in the Xenaverse.
No, dumbass, we're arguing over whether Xena killed Callisto. The
issue is NOT about justice, it's about justification! "Callisto deserved
to die and she needed to die and Xena killed her; within the rules setup
within the FICTIONAL world of XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS, the TV show this
newsgroup is dedicated to, was Xena justified in killing Callisto thus
making her actions NOT murder?" THAT is the question we are supposed to be
answering, not your namby-pamby little evasion tactic about some universal
justice system that seems to exist only in your mind.
:> You say "the actual argument" like it isn't about XENA AND
:> CALLISTO. YOU seem to want to argue about the concept of murder in a very
:> general sense, as it pertains to the entire world, past, present, future,
:> and in terms of spirituality and morality. But the actual argument is,
:> given the circumstances the killing took place under and the rules of
:> justice in the land where it happened, did Xena murder Callisto? And, in
:> those terms, the answer is an emphatic "No!".
: We are argueing whether Xena was guilty of murder.
...within the rules of the Xenaverse, yes.
: You are taking a
: stance that in the courts of the Xenaverse Xena would be found innocent,
: so she is innocent, and I say that is obsurd, becuase it's an inferior
: system of justice.
Pardon me, but there's no such word as "obsurd". "Absurd",
perhaps?
Further, I'm not even saying that. Oh, sure, I may have mentioned
that the courts probably would have let Xena off because Callisto was (on
the outside at least, where it really counts as far as justice is
concerned) a monster, but that's not even the whole of my argument.
I don't think that the case ever would have even GONE to trial in
the Xenaverse. I think everyone would have said, aloud or not, "Xena
killed Callisto? Oh, thank [fill in Greek deity here]! We don't have to
live in fear anymore!". I think no one would have blamed her.
And they don't have an inferior system of justice, just a less
formalized one, and one that is more concerned with reality than political
correctness. The reality is that Callisto is an unrepentent killer of
innocent civilians and cannot be allowed to roam free.
: We *have to* argue justice because it would be
: totally illogical to abide by Xenas laws, which also ironicly allows
: people to be thrown into ponds attached to stones to determine thier
: innocence, and also allows slavery.
Laws and justice are what people make it into. In Xena's world,
might makes right. In Xena's world, you obey the laws or you pay BIG TIME.
They're using fear instead of persausion to keep people lawful and it
actually makes MORE sense. I believe it was Thomas Jefferson (and Admiral
Tolwyn from Wing Commander 4, but that's beside the point) who said "The
price of freedom is eternal vigilance." And no one is free so long as a
cruel person is allowed to continue their lawless ways unopposed. One must
use FORCE, or the appearance of it, to maintain peace. Whether that's
active or passive force is entirely up to the general attitude of the
citizenry.
Just because you don't like the harshness of a certain court
system doesn't make it inferior, and it certainly doesn't mean that you
wouldn't have to obey it if you were ever there.
: If we argue in a more optimal
: system of justice we would have a much better idea of who is innocent
: and who is guilty (as long as we abide by the exact physical conditions
: of the Xenaverse)
If we did that, our entire argument would be irrelevent, a stupid
mental exercise. It's also impossible. The court system we have now relies
too heavily on technology and concepts that didn't exist in Xena's time
and doesn't cover situations that are encountered in a fictional universe
like Xena's. Abiding by the exact physical conditions of the Xenaverse but
the laws and methods of our court system would produce nothing so much as
excessive contradiction and paradox.
It would be like trying to refuel an internal combustion engine in
a car with anti-matter; the two just can't fit together and work properly.
:> I don't want to argue philosophy with you. I might have once, but
:> I'm sick of this argument and, frankly, I'm sick of you.
: REally???
No, actually your sophomoric little arguments are really turning
me on, marry me. OF COURSE I'm sick of you, you little freakshow. You
don't listen to reason, you don't listen to reality, you have no idea how
the actual world works, you barely grasp how the Xenaverse works, you
don't have even a basic working knowlege of history, you couldn't spell
you way out of the third grade, and you don't even know how to snip away
excess parts of posts to save reading/replying time. You do the bloody
math.
:> The simple point
:> is that, within the context of the show, Callisto's killing was justified
:> and necessary. And, since this is a Xena newsgroup, I want to discuss
:> XENA and the Xenaverse, and bloody little else.
: So you are taking the cowardly route of argueing and taking this to a
: stoneage law and order?
Cowardly? More like sensible and realistic. To be honest, it seems
more like you are being the coward since A) you are outnumbered and B) if
we talk about the actual SHOW rather than hypothetically trying Xena in
the 20th century you obviously lose.
:> But that's the point: They had a _different_ (I won't acknowlege
:> the term "inferior", that is totally opinion. Theirs was less organized,
:> perhaps, and probably more draconian, but it was by no means without its
:> merits over today's systems) form of justice then, so today's rules can't
:> be applied to a situation back THEN.
: You must must be out of your mind if you are going to bring this
: arguement down to stone age justice. I refuse to go there, and I
: honestly think you must be pretty desperate if you are trying to take
: this arguement before a stone age court in order to prove the "rightnes"
: in this arguement.
Actually, this is well past the stone age. They obviously have
steel, copper, bronze, and gold. Were this the stone age, they wouldn't
even be working _clay_.
And YOU must be pretty desperate to deny the reality of the
situation. REGARDLESS of whether Xena is guilty in TODAY'S system of
justice, she would never be TRIED with today's system of justice. TODAY,
we have different values, different goals, different attitudes.
Apples and oranges. Dogs and vacuum cleaners. Protozoa and waffle
irons. Rabbits and ferns. Xenaverse and 20th Century Earth. All things
that cannot be arguedover as though they are close enough.
:> You are wrong. There is no absolute form of justice. What one man
:> may see as just, another may see as a travesty. Justice comes down to
:> beliefs, and one person may believe that it isn't just to EVER steal, much
:> less when it's necessary. And even _necessary_ is up for debate. You
:> cannot find a universal form of justice that every person believes, deep
:> in their heart, to be true and have this justice be the same for
:> everybody. It just doesn't work like that.
: You see, this is where you are wrong. Justice is a mathematical
: concept, there are more optimal forms of justice then others. Let me
: break it down for you: Lets say there was a place: that said justice
: was that you were a slave and anybody could and abuse you and the ones
: you love whenever they want to, and lets say there was another place
: that said you were totally free, and able to work. Which system do you
: think is more optimal?
I can tell you which I would prefer, but turn it around: Suppose I
were one of the people who could OWN slaves. I'd think the system was
great because I wouldn't have to do any work. I'd think the system was
fair and just.
You see, there is no universal justice, there is only what you SEE
as justice. Justice, more than anything else we've discussed here, is all
about OPINION! Some people think that certain laws are totally unfair,
totally unjust, and totally wrong, but the people those laws protect are
probably happy about them.
Take smoking, for example. I happen to find smoking odious,
disgusting, and a danger to my health. I think it would be WONDERFUL and
fair if smokers weren't allowed to smoke anywhere outside of hermetically
sealed chambers in their own homes in the dark. But smokers would call
that a violation of their rights, and often DO quite loudly whenever a
city hands down any kind of non-smoking law. I remember when a lot of
restaurants in New York were told that they had to go completely
non-smoking and there was this huge uproar...
Now, smokers represent a pssive danger with their second-hand
smoke. They are also quite smelly, IMHO. I think it's unjust that they can
be allowed to come anywhere near me. Smokers think that they should be
able to do whatever they want since they aren't actually assaulting anyone
and it IS supposed to be a free country.
Who's right? We all have a different idea of how justice could be
served as far as smoking is concerned. One man's ceiling is another man's
floor just as one man's justice is another man's travesty.
There's an old joke: What's the difference between a trauma and no
big deal? A trauma is when something bad happens to me, no big deal is
when it happens to you. This is why laws have to be written, to protect
everyone, to make every bad thing a trauma of equal weight.
It doesn't matter how unfairly some people are treated, justice is
whatever the local leaders say it is. HUMAN DECENCY, or kindness, or
whatever you want to call it may be closer to what YOU are talking about,
but justice it is not.
:> Fine. Now say WHY. WHY do you disagree? No, I know, you think we
:> have to KNOW that Callisto would commit crimes later.
:> But what you DON'T say is how you justify your inaction in
:> stopping Callisto when you had the chance to the people she harms later,
:> if she does.
: "If she does" being the keywords, nobody knows what she is going to do,
: it's not your responsibility to be a mind reader.
Once again, you evade the question. Look, I want to know what
steps you plan on taking JUST IN CASE. That "if she does" doesn't mean
that you are correct in believing she WON'T. She still COULD, you have to
acknowlege that point at least, she what would you do, within all the
rules of the Xenaverse, to insure that she DOESN'T?
You have to allow for this or your system protects NOBODY BUT
CALLISTO, who, IMHO, doesn't deserve protecting. How do you protect the
people Callisto COULD harm ,without killing Callisto? How do you do it in
such a way where you KNOW they will be protected?
And if there is no other way, then you HAVE to kill Callisto,
because those lives aren't worth risking on a GUESS. You say Callisto's
life isn't worth it, either, but she's only one person.
:> You never say how your system of justice is supposed to
:> benefit THEM, the people who's safety you casually risked when you didn't
:> contain or kill Callisto when you had the chance.
: Nobodys life is being risked because nobody can be sure of whats going
: to happen in the future.
You are wrong. Peoples' lives are being risked because we know
what Callisto is capable of, we know she COULD do it, we know that in the
past she WOULD do it, and we have NO indication she has changed. You let
her go under THOSE conditions are you bloody well ARE risking lives.
We may not be SURE of what's going to happen in the future, but we
can figure out what's likely. You can't see a risk or a danger and just
ignore it becuase it might not happen, that's a good way to get yourself
killed or maimed, even if that risk ISN'T from Callisto.
: Risk is all over the place, it's a part of
: life. Deal with it.
I do, by REMOVING any visible risks when I see them. I don't see a
risk and just file it away for future reference so I can know what bit me
in the ass when something goes wrong. I see a risk and I do everything I
can to minimize it.
How you would minimize the risk from Callisto? I know you don't
think such a risk even exists, and for that I call you a stupid fool, but
you have to acknowlege that Callisto COULD hurt people and that she HAS
been willing to...that in my book constitutes a risk. So how would you
prevent her from taking the opportunity to hurt people, should she choose
to?
:> KNOWING what someone will do in the future is a luxury you cannot
:> afford when dealing with a person who's past record looks even HALF as bad
:> as Callisto's or who's power is half as strong.
: when it comes don't to justification it must be afforded. You can't
: kill somebody that is innocent of a crime.
That's why I'm asking you what YOU would do to prevent her from
EVER repeating her earlier crimes. I'm asking you how you would do it, why
it would work, and why it would work for certain.
Answer the question.
:> Callisto was a GOD with a
:> known record of violence against innocents and you choose to be SURE that
:> she'll harm people before stopping her from EVER doing it again?
: Stopping her is fine, killing is another story. If you kill an innocent
: person you are guilty of murder, and thats the fact jack.
So how would you have stopped her, hmm? Why would your method
work? Will it work for certain? If not, how can you justify risking
innocent lives?
:> She isn't DEFINITELY innocent, though. Callisto has committed
:> crimes that are capital in ANY justice system already; the fact that you
:> kill her from ever doing it again is merely prudence, she has too much to
:> answer for already.
: Woah...now hold your horses, we can not mutate the arguement any further
: then it already has been mutated, your backed up into a corner now, and
: your changing your stance again as you commonly do.
I am most certainly NOT backed into a corner, and I'm only
bringing up yet another point that adds into Callisto's ultimate
punishment. Callisto didn't committ just ONE crime, that of taunting Xena
when Gabby died. Had that been ALL Xena _never_ should have killed her. It
isn't all, and you know it.
: We had already
: cleared up why xena killed Callisto, you even admitted it to me on
: numerous occasions "Xena murdered Callisto because Xena thought she
: might commit crimes in the future" which was your stance, for the
: "greater good" was your stance,
And why do you think I SAID it was for the greater good? I don't
think that a wise-ass who spouts off at inappropriate times deserves to be
killed...maybe just roughed up a little. ]
It was for the greater good because, based on Callisto's past
record and continuing un-prepentant attitude, she was still a danger to
the world at large.
: and now that I have proven that as being
: wrong(since you can't murder somebody for a crime they did not commit
: and have it be justified),
That's your OPINION, idiot. You've proven NOTHING with that little
piece of oft-parrotted rhetoric.
: so now you are saying Callisto was murdered
: for things she did in the past,
Among other things. You don't listen nor put facts together well,
do you?
: which I can also argue as being wrong
: and have already argued, and won,
Where do you get the part about you winning? You haven't
successfully proven a single point YET.
: since you backed up in the "xena did
: it for the greater good" stance, because in order for Xena to kill
: Callisto for her past misdeeds she must also be able to justify her own
: being killed for past misdeeds,
This is incorrect since it is one of the logical fallacies. It is
NOT a defense to say that someone cannot be blamed for something just
because someone else had done the same thing.
: and she must also justify revenge. The
: fact that somebody did not change doesn't matter.
Yes, it does. If Callisto had changed, she wouldn't be a danger to
anyone. If she had done a total 180 like Xena had and was _good_ instead
of evil, she would NOT kill innocents. But she didn't even give a _HINT_
that she had changed in this way, which leaves her as a danger still.
: What was Callisto
: paying for when she died? No matter what it was it couldn't be
: justified.
And here's the problem: You don't EVER think killing Callisto is
justified unless it's a one-on-one fight during the commission of a crime.
You are an idiot for thinking so.
:> But, even so, how do you justify risking more than one life to try
:> and save only one?
: how do you justify killing somebody for a crime they did not commit?
I justify it by saying that A) they'd already committed crimes for
which they deserve to die B) they have been completely un-remorseful C)
they have expressed an unwillingness to, and shown no ability to, change
their ways and remove themselves as a danger to anyone D) they are
uncontainable as they are adept at escaping prisons, the underworld, holes
in the ground, and pits of lava E) they are a GOD who can be killed by
only one weapon and cannot be contained in any of the methods mentioned in
D anyway, so F) we are out of options.
That's what I've been saying all along, not my fault if you didn't
put it all together.
: Lets focus on this arguement from now on, because it is the *heart* of
: this whole arguement, and lets just kill this thread by confronting it
: head on.
No. That's not the heart of the argument. That's what YOU THINK is
the heart of the argument, but even the wording of it is slanted toward
your side; it ignores too many factors that HAVE to be considered.
For example, Callisto was not killed for a crime she didn't
commit, she was killed for representing an uncontainable danger. Had she
been containable, she wouldn't need to be killed. Had she not been a
danger, she wouldn't need to be killed. Had she been neither of those
things, she wouldn't need to be killed.
Noone is saying that Callisto was killed for a _specific_ crime
that she hasn't committed, but rather to keep her FROM committing any MORE
crimes. If Callisto's record had been clean, no one would know what her
capacity for doing evil WAS and thus would have no idea what kind of a
danger she COULD BE, and therefore wouldn't kill her. But knowing that
Callisto can committ atrocities of such hideous caliber, and knowing that
she hasn't shown the slightest bit of remorse, and knowing that she hasn't
shown any signs of having changed her ways, that makes her a KNOWN danger,
one that must be prevented. And there was no way to do it other than
killing her.
:> Would you put your own life up as the stakes in this
:> little game? If you were in Xena's position and you were told "Okay, you
:> can try to heal Callisto, and if it works she doesn't die. Or, you can
:> kill her now. Or, lastly, you can try to heal her and, if it doesn't work
:> and she kills again, YOUR life is forfeit along with those she hurts.
:> Choose." would you take that bet? Or, more to the point, what if you were
:> one of those villagers that Callisto would hurt if she didn't change? What
:> if your family was? Are THEIR lives worth trying to help Callisto?
:> Remember, they only live is Callisto changes her ways...are you so sure
:> she will that you will risk everything you care about to try?
:> You are pretty casual with the lives of people that don't really
:> exist. Could you do it with REAL people? I'm sorry, but if Callisto kills
:> even ONE person the risk isn't worth it, IMHO.
: I wouldn't know what Callisto was going to do, therefore I could not
: judge her actions based on a guess.
Why the hell not? If you were in Xena's place, or in the place of
anyone who had heard of Callisto, you would know what she HAS done. Would
you want someone who COULD do that anywhere near your family and friends?
Would you feel SAFE around Callisto?
I know I would be ducking and covering every time Callisto moved.
She's unpredicatble and dangerous. I know her past, I know that she could
kill me for no reason other than she felt like it.
With only her past record to go on, I know what COULD happen, and
I would take every step to prevent it. YOU seem to want to take every step
to allow it to happen and then step in AFTER the fact, AFTER Callisto has
hurt people. Could you just WATCH as Callisto butchered an innocent person
and THEN step in to kill her for it? What if you were too far away or
weren't even THERE to protect this person from being killed? Could you
live yourself and your failure? Because you would have failed. If Callisto
had gotten away and then committed such a crime, as we know she could
based on her past, and you had not been able to stop her, wouldn't you be
kicking yourself for not stopping her when you had the chance? That
person's blood would be on YOUR hands because you took no steps to prevent
their death when you had the chance.
This is the part you keep ignoring. DON'T respond with "We don't
know the future so we can't do anything about it". Acknowlege the point,
tell me what you would do to keep the POSSIBILITY of Callisto doing this
from happening. Or are you telling me that Callisto's past record wouldn't
even make you GUESS that she COULD do such a thing? Or are you telling me
that even if you DID guess that she COULD do such a thing, you'd do
nothing to stop it even if it meant innocent deaths if she really DOES?
:> Sure she does. Xena has felt the rage and pain that Callisto has.
:> Xena's done some of the things that Callisto has. She KNOWS what it's
:> like, and she knows what it takes to change. There's no one better to
:> recognize the chance for change than Xena. And if she doesn't see it in
:> Callisto, she's prefectly justified in taking that blond bitch down to
:> protect others.
: I think that your being totally irrational.
There is a whole support system in place in OUR world that uses
just this theory. It keeps countless people everyday from killing
themselves slowly, or having accidents, losing their jobs, beating their
families, losing their self control. And the entire system is run by
people who used to do JUST those things. Who better to know the minds of
those who need help than someone who's been there?
This system is called Alcoholics Anonymous, I know this stuff
about it because I know people who have been through it, or other programs
like it. I just recently made a friend at school who used to be heavily
into drugs, but is off them and getting an education now.
Xena would know Callisto's state of mind because she's BEEN THERE,
and she'd know when someone is over the edge.
:> No, I'm saying it like Callisto COULD, MIGHT, and PROBABLY WILL do
:> these things. She's given no indication she wouldn't.
: there was no indication that she would.
Yes, there was. There's the fact that she's done so in the past
and hasn't moved from that path yet. This means that, unless something
happened off-screen that we didn't get to see, Callisto is STILL THE
SAME...most likely. I have to acknowlege that she _might_ have invisibly
changed somehow, but there's about a 99.4% chance that she HASN'T based on
what we've seen.
:> YOU keep talking like Callisto has given a sign she will change or
:> already HAS changed and definitely WON'T kill anyone ever again.
: I talk as if I don't know what a person is going to do until I have
: signs that they are going to do something.
Which endagers lives. Stay the hell away from me, buddy, I want to
live.
:> Callisto is NOT innocent. Perhaps she hasn't killed those
:> villagers yet, and maybe she never will. But she HAS killed OTHER
:> villagers for no reason other than to frame Xena.
: So now we are argueing that Callisto is paying for past misdeeds? What
: is your stance, be logical. Did Xena kill Callisto in revenge, or did
: xena kill Callisto because of the invisible crimes she might commit in
: the future? If both you can't keep me dancing back and forth, we argue
: one topic, then move on to the next...not everything at once in a
: flexibly illogical manner.
This argument HAS to be flexible, Callisto is not guilty of any
ONE things, but a whole ARRAY of things. Just what she had done and could
have done at the end of the episode where she was killed is not enough to
justify her death. But the whole Callisto package, past crimes, current
crimes, possible crimes, and lack of remorse, now THAT justifies her
death.
:> Callisto murdered
:> Perdicus JUST to make Gabrielle hurt and, through her, to make Xena hurt.
:> If there's anything Callisto ISN'T, it's innocent.
: She innocent of the crimes she *might* commit in the future until she
: commits them, and that was the original point until you started
: deviating again.
No, the original point was whether Callisto was murdered by Xena,
or killed in a justifiable way. Callisto may be INNOCENT of crimes she
hasn't yet committed, but that doesn't mean she should be ALLOWED to
commit them, or even allowed to TRY and commit them! We know she COULD, we
know she MIGHT, we don't have any evidence whatsoever that she WON'T or
even that she MIGHT NOT. This means we have to prevent her from HAVING THE
OPPORTUNITY until either A) she changes or B) she's found unable to change
and must be disposed of. It's as simple as that.
When someone has a record like Callisto's, one full of treachery,
violence against innocents, and murderous recenge-seeking, one has to try
and CONTAIN that person, not coddle them.
:> : It does though, show that there is a *possibility* that she can reform
:> : her ways.
:>
:> No, it doesn't. That's YOUR opinion, so it doesn't count.
: The fact that Callisto *might* change in the future is no opinion...it's
: a fact. The fact that Callsito can't change is an opinion...Got it?
No, you are wrong. The fact that Callisto _might_ change is
opinion because you don't know that she _can_ change. It's possible that
she _can't_. Thus, the idea that she _might_ is still opinion.
:> I think
:> it shows that she's willing to fuck with Gabby's head. That's my opinion.
:> Since we can't be certain about this point we have to throw it out because
:> it doesn't give us any irrefutable FACTS.
: the fact is that: at that time she *was* willing to open up, but only to
: an extent...
No, that's also still opinion. She could have been lying when she
told Gabrielle anything, she might just have been baiting Gabby to cut her
down at the end.
No one but the writers can say one way or the other what Callisto
was thinking/doing at that time.
:> : Lets organize some points, and see if we can clear some things up: Xena
:> : killed Callisto for a crime she didn't commit.
:>
:> No. Xena killed Callisto for eveything she's EVER DONE. Her list
:> of crimes is extensive.
: now you have deviated from your previous arguements, and are argueing
: that Callisto was killed due to her past misdeeds...I thinkt hat is a
: sign of the fragilness of your arguement.
Wrong. It's a sign that there's more to it that just one
little-bitty point. I'm trying to paint a whole picture here, but you just
want to concentrate on a small part of it. We take this argument in pieces
and you might be able to weasel your way into winning a point or two, but
if we look at the big picture, I'm totally right. Nothing, no issue, is
ever made or broken by ONE point, it's always a whole host of factors.
:> Xena killed Callisto because she was making snide
:> remarks about Xena's best friend dying. AND Xena killed Callisto because
:> she represented a danger to the world at large.
: So Xena killed in revenge of the remark.
Geez, no. Weren't you listening? The remark was a _trigger_, but
without Callisto's past record and possible danger to the future, Xena
NEVER would have killed her. Maybe roughed her up a little, but not killed
her, because it WOULDN'T be justified without Callisto having been evil in
the past and representing a danger later.
:> You cannot simplify this, nor put a spin on it like you have, and
:> expect it to have any weight in your argument.
: I'm not trying to, I am only forking over facts...
No, you're forking over OPINION and trying to CALL it fact.
:> I'm reporting FACT here
:> while you're trying to make a mockery of everything I've said so far as
:> well as inserting your own opinion into it.
: Like it or not, but I am not trying to make a mockery of you, or your
: opinions. In fact, I respect your opinions, and your facts.
If you did respect them, you'd answer questions asked to you
directly (you snipped the one about precenting Callisto from being a
danger).
:> Xena was recpetive to change where Callisto was not.
: Xena had more time, more people on her side, and given way more chances
: then Callisto.
"...than Callisto". And Xena was still _receptive_. Time and help
mean _nothing_ if one isn't willing to change.
:> : Xena was repsonisble for Cirra.
:>
:> Among other people. There was another warlord there, the men who
:> started the fires without orders, etc.
: I can't even believe I am argueing this, even Xena excepts the
: responsibilty, why can't you?
"accepts". And because Xena is wrong to accept FULL responsibility
for something that she would have prevented had she been given the chance.
She may have brought her army to Cirra but she neither ordered, wanted, or
set those fires and would have stopped them from ever happening if she
could. Accepting full responsibility for something like that is
self-destructive. Xena isn't infalliable and she does have a small
self-destructive streak. Besides, Callisto would only be worse if Xena
denied responsibility or made excuses.
:> : All of these elements tell me that your
:>
:> "you're". How long till you get that right?
: You know, I have found plenty of spelling errors with your documents,
: but I never comment because it has nothing to do with the arguement, and
: with every complaint about spelling I am losing respect for you, and I
: think other people who read this are also...
This isn't spelling, it's grammar. And feel free to point out any
spelling errors I make. But I assure you, any mistakes I make are purely
accidental while yours seem born of ignorance.
"Your" is possessive, "you're" is short for "you are". Learn it,
use it, or you may never get a job that requires higher than an eight
grade education.
:> Killing someone innocent of a crime is not always murder. My
:> example at the firing range, for example. Killing someone who is a danger
:> to others is often PRAISED, not condemned.
: So, you agree with executing people for crimes they never committed, you
: agree with executing innocent people?
I agree with killing people who have violent histories to prevent
them from even being violent again. I do not agree with executing people
who have never done ANYTHING because they are starting to show violent
tendencies.
You are trying to oversimplfy that issue, and it won't ever work.
Callisto hasn't been "innocent" since the first time we ever saw her. She
may not have killed anyone ELSE yet when she herself was killed, but she
HAD to be prevented from killing anyone ever again because she'd already
killed too many. There was no SURE way other than death. I've challenged
you to come up with a way that WAS sure AND left Callisto alive. You
haven't taken me up on that challenge, so I assume you cna't think of a
way either.
: Callisto gave no impression that
: she was going to kill, she was just standing there.
At the time of her death, yes, she was just standing there. But
that doesn't mean that someone has to be committing a crime AT THE MOMENT
THEY ARE THEMSELVES KILLED to have that killing be justified.
: Your analogy at the
: firing range relys greatly on that the person is wielding a gun and
: pointing it at people, whereas Callisto would have been simply holding
: onto a gun with no intention of using.
No, dumb-ass, my analogy with the firing range has very little to
do with pointing a gun at people, it has to do with handling a gun in a
dangerous manner. You could be spinning it on your finger like a fragging
cowboy, loading it while facing the wrong way, gesturing while talking
with a gun in your hand by accident...pointing a gun at someone IS
dangerous, but it is by far not the only way a gun CAN be dangerous. A gun
is dangerous just by BEING THERE. Guns have been known to go off when
dropped, sometimes while just sitting in a box or being jarred too hard.
You CAN'T be too careful with a gun. And the instructor was authorized to
put anyone down if he saw them acting IRRESPONSIBLY and DANGEROUSLY.
Callisto was both irresponsible and dangerous. Her very PRESENCE
ON THE PLANET, especially as a GOD, was dangerous to EVERYBODY. How is it
that you can't see that?
:> : Hey, should we tear down all the buildings in new york because they
:> : might crush somone? Should we stop taking airplanes because they might
:> : crash? Should we not drive because we might get into a car accident?
:>
:> Nice fucking evasion, butt-munch. How about answering the
:> question? The problem given is that we KNOW those 99 men are evil and that
:> 1 is good. We KNOW those 99 men will kill and the 1 man will do supposedly
:> good things.
:> Now, WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO SAVE THE PEOPLE THOSE 99 MEN WOULD
:> VICTIMZE, hmm? We aren't talking about buildings, which represent a
:> passive danger, we're talking about concious men who live to kill,
: Buildings represent a potential danger, as does callisto, and thats how
: the analogy is similar. but lets, cast aside all these analo
Why won't you answer the question? Is it because you CAN'T?
Buildings represent a PASSIVE danger. Buldings _might_ fall on your head,
but they aren't actively TRYING to. 99 ruthless bandits, on the other
hand, will TRY to hit you with sharp pointy things and TRY to take your
valuables and TRY to get away again. They represent an ACTIVE danger.
:> pillage, rape, and loot. HOW DO YOU STOP THEM if your goal is to save the
:> life of the 1 "good" man? Answer the question. Stop evading it. If you
:> can't answer it, SAY SO.
: I never made up that analogy, and I refuse to answer it because it is a
: bad analogy. The analogy relies on the fact that 99 men *WILL* be
: victimized, whereas in reality the situation with Callisto is very
: different.
Hardly. Your refusal to answer a question, which I have put to you
before in a way that DIRECTLY relates to Callisto, indicates to me that
you have no leg to stand on, but I'll ask it ONE MORE TIME:
Callisto has shown her violent ways in the past and has given no
indication that she has or has not changed her ways now. She cannot be
detained because she is a god AND has shown her ability to escape from
various forms of containment even as a mortal. How do you keep her from
even having a chance to kill ever again FOR SURE without killing her to do
it?
C'mon, answer this question. What method would work FOR SURE, with
no room for error, that would keep Callisto from killing again, regardless
of whether she WILL or not? She MIGHT, and that's enough to try and keep
her from ever doing so, you have to agree with THAT at least. My method is
to kill her because I think she's too dangerous to be allowed to roam
free. Xena seems to agree. But how would YOU do it, and be CERTAIN that it
worked? Remember, it's POSSIBLE that people could die if you're wrong, so
make your method a good one.
Answer this question or we have nothing left to discuss. Even if
you say you don't KNOW a way to do it without killing Callisto, that's a
perfectly valid answer and one I will accept. But if you give NO answer, I
refuse to talk to you. If you give a flawed answer, one that won't be
CERTAIN or won't work at all, then I'll probably rip it to shreds. But
ANSWER THE BLOODY QUESTION! I've only asked it about five times!
:> : We KNOW Calisto has killed in the past, we don't KNOW she is going to
:> : kill in the future, a guess is a guess, not a fact. We are discussing
:> : facts. Xena killed an innocent person, for whatever cause is for
:> : whatever cause, but she DID kill somebody for a crime that never
:> : happened, and thats murder anyway you look at it.
:>
:> It is a FACT that Callisto has given no sign that she has changed.
:> It is a FACT that Callisto has given no sign that she HASN'T changed.
: It is a FACT that Callisto *might* have changed, that much is not
: opinion. It is not a fact to think that she *could not* change.
No, actually, that's totally opinion. I think, personally, that it
is FACT that she HASN'T changed. She _might_ in the future, though I don't
believe it, but she HASN'T YET. Why do I say this? Because she's given no
sign that she has and plenty of signs that she's he usual cuddly self.
:> The
:> only thing left to do IS guess, and weight the risks of killing her
:> against NOT killing her.
: there is no guessing, FACTS, remember. If you want me to discuss facts,
: you have to also.
Wrong. You have to GUESS to form a conclusion because there aren't
ENOUGH facts. Backing up your points with FACTS is necessary, yes, but in
this case your actions HAVE to be rules by guesses because there are too
many variables unaccounted for.
:> Case AGAINST killing her, as presented by you: We have a chance to
:> save Callisto's soul, or whatever, and bring her back from the edge of
:> insanity to see the error of her ways. We could help her and she may not
:> kill again.
: Case against killing her as presented by me: she didn't do anything to
: anybody, she was just standing there.
"Didn't do anything to anybody"????? What about Perdicus? What
about all those villages she razed to frame Xena? She'd done PLENTY to
deserve to die. Just because she wasn't doing anything AT THE TIME, you
think this somehow absolves her???
:> Case FOR killing her, as presented by me: Callisto has given us no
:> way to know whether or not she will kill again. Her past record has shown
:> that, in all likelyhood, she WILL. Better to be safe than sorry, better
:> that one should die to protect others. Even without PROOF that she will do
:> it again, we have no PROOF she WON'T and that makes her a risk. Her powers
:> keep her from being detainable and she has escaped many times as a mortal
:> anyway. Her past crimes condemn her already, her potential crimes cannot
:> be tolerated. Her life is forfeit.
: ...until next time TARK!
Uh, sure, whatever.
Rubicant
>
> Im not gonna reply to every stupid little arguement you bring up, but Im just
> gonna say one thing. WHY are you here? WHY are you agrueing about REAL LIFE
> justice for a FICTIONAL show with FICTIONAL people in a FICTIONAL world with a
> FICTIONAL way things work? I don't understand that...
I am from *REALITY*, and I am sporting my own opinions based in
*REALITY*, not fantasy...Would you rather I argue ancient laws and
fanatsy elements that have nothing to do with my own arguement? I'll
bet you would...I have my opinion, let it go...
> YOU say that I'm insane
> for arguing, when, in reality, YOU are the messed-up one.
I don't think your insane, and I don't think I am messed up.
> If you wanna argue
> about the REAL WORLD'S justice and court systems, like I said before, go to a
> current events news group, ok?
I don't...never said or implied that. I'm argueing my concept of
justice.
> Im sure there's plenty of controversial issues
> to discuss about REAL WORLD events some other place... But if you post here, at
> the XENA NEWS GROUP, don't make a whole huge stupid arguement based on how
> things work in THE REAL WORLD, please?
I never started this, it's you and TarkD who are arguing with me, I made
a statement: "Xena murdered Callisto", and now YOU and TARKD are
argueing against it...actually Tarkd has had his argueing privilages
taken away from him recently.
> It just doesn't make sense.... and
> that's a fact.
>
> BD
Hey...heres an original concept for you to grasp: MAYBE YOUR WRONG.
Did that ever cross your mind? No, I'll bet it never does cross your
mind...afterall, how can you be wrong? Your you! Your never wrong!
YIPPPIEEE!!!
-Lazarus- QUITS THESE PATHETIC ARGUEMENTS, as I should have done a week
ago.
Rubicant
you are irrational. I tried to argue with you, but to be blunt, you are
a bad arguer, you insult people, and you bring up useless facts to *try*
and prove your intelligence (like facts about hitler in ww2), and bring
up the useless to do the oppositte for me (complaining about spelling
errors, the *ultimate* anal thing somebody can do on in usenet) and your
sole goal seems not to be to learn and to teach, but rather to attempt
to prove some kind of superiority. You started this arguement, and I
replied, but then you got frustrated (with what you think is me, but is
really just yourself) and when I thought it was time to go, and leave
you trapped in your own ironheadedness, you invited me back into the
arguement, I came back, but now I see that you have no respect for
anybody. I realized that you aren't even worth writing to, because you
don't know how to communicate. I take it back when I said I wish you
peace, because I know know that you don't have peace at this point in
your life, and will never achieve peace with your attitude. Simply
put: you are a fool that isn't worth my time, one more thing: don't
even bother replying to this...
-Lazarus-
Gatsby -- aka Dave H.
> nebulous. Factor in the part about Callisto being a god and thus neededing
> to be killed whenever the chance presented itself or possibly never have
> that chance again, and...
hands unless you have to; she didn't have to. Callisto was no threat to
anyone at that moment, thus there was no need to kill her. It was a temper
tantrum, period. You want an example, fine; Hercules had a Hind's blood
dagger to Ares' throat; he could have easily killed Ares, thus saving the
lives of millions of ppl. He didn't. There was no need to then. Since
Callisto is no more dangerous than Ares, there's no difference. As for her
being a God, if she really was a chaotic threat to the rest of the world,
the other gods would get together and take care of her -- I think that Ares,
Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades could have easily dealt with Callisto if she was a
severe threat. You want my reasoning, fine; Ares = 1; Poseidon = 1; Hades =
1; Zeus = 2; Callisto = 1. 1 + 1 + 1 +2 > 1
> What??? When did I ever say I believed in the afterlife? I'm the
> most secular person you'll ever meet!
> Besides, Xena was a warlord, yes, and she was ruthless, yes, but
> she was never quite as _crazy_ as Callisto. You could always have a
> _chance_ of reasoning with Xena. Not so with Callisto.
Yeah, the same chance that Iolous had, then Xena ordered the children killed
in Amrmagaddon 2. A rational and purposeful psychokiller is no better or
worse than an irrational one. As for crazyness, the insane are supposed to
be pardened of crimes, not punished the most severely, b/c they can't help
it. Either say Callisto was insane in that sense, thus deserving pardon, or
say she wasn't insane at all. Mad, upsett, and vengeful does not equal
insane.
> And that consideration was taken...a LONG time ago. It isn't like
> Xena weighed all of Callisto's crimes right then and there in that cave
> after Gabby died and THEN passed her own judgement. Callisto's crimes have
> built up over the years
(a) they were allies. You not supposed to kill your allies, even when you
don't like them; (b) Xena had hardly given any thought to what Callisto did
save those 4/5 times they were in a tango; (c) an individual, especially
one who is upset, can't pass his/her judgement(if ur to distribute justice,
you can only do it while you are calm as ice; Xena was hot); (d) Callisto
had gotten bored with killing, and had barely even thought of her hatred for
Xena in that ep -- if she was let live, she would have either committed
suicide, or found some profession as a god, or taken up being a warlord
simply for the lack of better things to do. If she lived several years, she
would have gained the abiliity of time travel, and thus would probably be
able to change her own destiny/present/whatever just at the snap of a
finger.
> No, I don't think so. See, it wouldn't be the same as when Xena
> has been let go. Xena has reformed herself, Callisto has not and has given
> no indication that she might ever do so.
> There's a difference between being let go because you've changed
> and just being let go regardless of change.
You are again ignoring the 8 year difference in their careers as warlords.
So far as I know, Xena had 4 ppl that helped her, that slave girl in the 1st
Ceaser ep, the chinese woman, Hercules, and Gabrielle. Xena made some vain
attempt to help Callisto, which was nothing compared to the help she
received from those several people.
> Perhaps not, but Xena at least understands the value of human life
> and will either run or not fight. Callisto would wade in hacking.
Law of survival. You entitled to defend yourself when people are trying to
kill you, whether your innocent or guilty. It's a human instinct, just like
grabbing for a rope is if your falling.
> Callisto never DID change, and that's the point.
Again, you ignore the fact that Xena had 10 years to figure out it just
might be a happier life if she changed, and to get up the will to change,
while Callisto had 2 or 3. Statistically, Xena was 3.33 to 5 times more
likely to change than Callisto. This time difference cannot be ignored.
> What about dying and having everybody be GLAD?
At least people knew you existed. Besides, most ppl aren't glad when
someone dies; when a rapist is executed, their victims don't feel any better
or happy b/c of it.
> Sure I do. It's hero-talk, what I call a "TV dinner line".
> (Origin: DIE HARD. John McClean struggling his way through an air vent
> says, to be funny, "Now I know what TV dinner feels like." It's the kind
> of line you get on bad cartoon shows all the time.) It's cheese and camp
> and part of what makes a hero fun to watch.
I really don't know why I watch things where it seems that phony. Most ppl
are sarcastic all the time, but it is real; the saracasm/smart-ass remarks,
should sound like they were something a person would think of and say in the
way he/she would say it. But, I don't watch the show for the acting, I
watch it for the fights. Ares is one of my favorite characters and he says
alotta corny stuff; Callisto's also 1 of my favorites, and she says some
real . . . wierd sounding things 2.
> But Xena was able to change, Callisto never was. Callisto not
> changing makes her a constant danger, her being a god makes her a BIG
> constant danger. She cannot be allowed ot remain alive.
Again, you ignore the 7-8 year time difference. And if u don't think that
all the God's on Olympus couldn't handle one goddess, Callisto, your pretty
wacked. If she really was a threat to the 'known' world, they'd deal with
her.
> In the context of the show, the afterlife is real and that's how
> it's set up so we might as well accept it as true for the duration of this
> conversation and in any other conversation realting to Xena. The real
> world may not work that way, but we cannot argue characters, motivations,
> plot points, or anything else relating to Xena without discussing it in
> terms of what is true within the universe of the show.
Yes, I agree, and, I suppose, an afterlife can even make it worse, as she
would spend an eternity w/o seeing her family.
> She wasn't moved, she was annoyed.
Obviously, u didn't see the look on her face. The way emotion plays on your
face cannot be faked. You must notta paid 2 much attention to that scene.
> Which only re-affirms the idea that all she cares about is
> revenge.
Perhaps, but it is expected. If the person who slaughters your whole town
is walking free, its only natural you want them to pay. And at least she's
no hypocritical. btw, Xena was acting no better than Callisto when she
stabbed Callisto out of anger.
> Never played it, didn't rip it off from there.
Ok, just my biase. Where'd u hear that term though?
> Right. Indicating that she was NOT receptive to changing herself,
> not able to let go of her hatred and need for revenge.
Or indicating that she didn't want to get hurt again. As she was, it was
almost impossible for Callisto to get hurt, b/c everything she loved was
already dead(ok, it was possible, in Armagadden, but she doesn't even
remember that b/c alternate shit).
Ok, here's how I sum it up. Xena had a damn fair chance to change; 10
years is a long time. Callisto didn't. If u hurt someone, you later have
an obligation -- assuming u become a decent person and can recognize
obligations -- to help that person get over it, whatever. You at least have
an obligation not to hurt them again. Change can be, like evolutaion, a
very slow thing, one grain of sand washed away at a time. It takes years,
not days. It's obvious to me that Xena was just acting hypocritical 2
Callisto b/c Callisto reminded her of her past and of who she was; she
didn't kill Draco the same way she did Callisto, but then again, she kinda
had a crush on him. He only changed w/ that love potion thing that Cupid
left on him. Callisto is, essentially, the spitting image of the past Xena.
BDangelico
>you are irrational.<<
Hmm, sounds like someone was a LITTLE SCARED to answer Tarkd's questions
directly FOR ONCE... He brough up A LOT of good points to questions YOU NEVER
REALLY ANSWERED. Why HAVE you never answered them? Let me guess: you have no
real answers.
>> I tried to argue with you, but to be blunt, you are
>a bad arguer, you insult people, and you bring up useless facts to *try*
>and prove your intelligence (like facts about hitler in ww2), and bring
>up the useless to do the oppositte for me (complaining about spelling
>errors, the *ultimate* anal thing somebody can do on in usenet) and your
>sole goal seems not to be to learn and to teach, but rather to attempt
>to prove some kind of superiority.<<
No, HE'S not the bad arguer, YOU are. YOU say he dodges questions, but I never
seen him do that. But YOU, you ALWAYS do. I STILL haven't seen you answer one
very important question Tarkd brought up: what WOULD and what COULD be done
with Callisto that wouldn't endanger more innocent peoples' lives?
>> You started this arguement, and I
>replied, but then you got frustrated (with what you think is me, but is
>really just yourself) and when I thought it was time to go, and leave
>you trapped in your own ironheadedness, you invited me back into the
>arguement, I came back, but now I see that you have no respect for
>anybody. <<
I'm am equally annoyned with you, ok? If you wonder WHY, you shouldn't. You say
we're the ones that are backed into a corner and bringing up irrelevant
details, while you dodge all the major and important questions we repeatedly
ask you. You say opinions that you, for some reason, THINK are more important
than our facts we present you... Guess what? THEY'RE NOT.
>> I realized that you aren't even worth writing to, because you
>don't know how to communicate. <<
And what do you call it when you dodge all our questions with the same stupid
reply over and over? That's reaaaaal good communication...
>> I take it back when I said I wish you
>peace, because I know know that you don't have peace at this point in
>your life, and will never achieve peace with your attitude. Simply
>put: you are a fool that isn't worth my time, one more thing: don't
>even bother replying to this...
>
>-Lazarus-
But ya didn't say I couldn't reply...
BD
BDangelico
>>
>> Im not gonna reply to every stupid little arguement you bring up, but Im
>just
>> gonna say one thing. WHY are you here? WHY are you agrueing about REAL LIFE
>> justice for a FICTIONAL show with FICTIONAL people in a FICTIONAL world
>with a
>> FICTIONAL way things work? I don't understand that...
>
>I am from *REALITY*, and I am sporting my own opinions based in
>*REALITY*, not fantasy...Would you rather I argue ancient laws and
>fanatsy elements that have nothing to do with my own arguement? I'll
>bet you would...I have my opinion, let it go...
Again, I'll say: XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS IS NOT REALITY. So, since you like to
argue without looking at it from OTHER VIEWS, you shouldn't argue at all. If
you want to argue about reality and real-life murder cases, be my guest. But
this, the XENA news group, is where we talk about Xena and everything in the
Xenaverse, UNDERSTAND?
>
>> YOU say that I'm insane
>> for arguing, when, in reality, YOU are the messed-up one.
>
>I don't think your insane, and I don't think I am messed up.
>
In one of your messages you said I was insane, that's not what I want to argue
about though.
>> If you wanna argue
>> about the REAL WORLD'S justice and court systems, like I said before, go to
>a
>> current events news group, ok?
>
>I don't...never said or implied that. I'm argueing my concept of
>justice.
Your concept of justice seems to be based on how thing work in the real world,
though. Do I have to say the Xenaverse IS NOT the real world, or do you
understand by now? It doesn't take a genius to understand what you're doing is
kind of.....messed up. EVERYTHING works differently in the Xenaverse from the
real world, they're uncomparable, so STOP acting like you can associate TODAY'S
justice in the REAL world to a FICTIONAL WORLD'S justice...
>
>> Im sure there's plenty of controversial issues
>> to discuss about REAL WORLD events some other place... But if you post
>here, at
>> the XENA NEWS GROUP, don't make a whole huge stupid arguement based on how
>> things work in THE REAL WORLD, please?
>
>I never started this, it's you and TarkD who are arguing with me, I made
>a statement: "Xena murdered Callisto", and now YOU and TARKD are
>argueing against it...actually Tarkd has had his argueing privilages
>taken away from him recently.
>
My point wasn't whether you started it or not, it's that here at the Xena NG,
quit acting like it's so muc like the real world, ok? That IS what you're
doing, don't deny it. So, I'm sure there's some real-life murders going on
every day in the real world. Go talk about them with other people. Go argue if
those people deserved to be killed. If I did, I'd, of course, see things in a
TOTALLY DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW from how I see the Xena/Callisto thing....Ya
know, because (here I go again) XENA IS FICTIONAL, THE REAL WORLD IS REAL.
They're different in so many ways, so don't compare them, OK?
>> It just doesn't make sense.... and
>> that's a fact.
>>
>> BD
>
>Hey...heres an original concept for you to grasp: MAYBE YOUR WRONG.
>Did that ever cross your mind? No, I'll bet it never does cross your
>mind...afterall, how can you be wrong? Your you! Your never wrong!
>YIPPPIEEE!!!
>
I'd admit it if I was wrong. But you have yet to show me one shred of proof
that would even make me think for a second that I was wrong. And I'm sure you
NEVER WILL show me anything in terms of facts to back yourself up, so I won't
hold my breath...
>-Lazarus- QUITS THESE PATHETIC ARGUEMENTS, as I should have done a week
>ago.
The only thing that makes them pathetic is YOU.
BD
Rubicant
>
> Again, I'll say: XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS IS NOT REALITY.
the situation can be based in reality using miniscule substitutions,
analogies, and such...
> In one of your messages you said I was insane, that's not what I want to argue
> about though.
I probably meant it as a figure of speech, nothing personal...
> >> If you wanna argue
> >> about the REAL WORLD'S justice and court systems, like I said before, go to
> >a
> >> current events news group, ok?
> >
> >I don't...never said or implied that. I'm argueing my concept of
> >justice.
>
> Your concept of justice seems to be based on how thing work in the real world,
> though.
It's just my opinion based on the subject. I agree Callisto was
dangerous, I agree that if there was evidence that her dangerousness
would effect somebody in the future force would be neccessary to stop
her. I also agree that it's most likely that Callisto would have to
die. I agree with ALOT of your arguements. Where my agreements stop is
in *the way* Callisto was killed, in cold blood, and out of anger.
> Do I have to say the Xenaverse IS NOT the real world, or do you
> understand by now?
This situation can be argued using my concept (which is nearly parrallel
to todays form) of justice though. I'm not argueing details, or law
books, I'm not lawyer, I'm just saying Callisto was killed in cold blood
and out of anger, and thats wrong. I can't believe how anybody can
disagree that Callisto was killed in cold blood, or that she was killed
in anger.
> It doesn't take a genius to understand what you're doing is
> kind of.....messed up.
I don't think what I'm doing is messed up, I'm just defending a point,
I'm not insulting anyone unless in defence of myself being insulted, and
I'm not conciously using any kind of trickery to prove my points. I'm
not out to prove anything, just argueing a point, just like you.
> EVERYTHING works differently in the Xenaverse from the
> real world, they're uncomparable, so STOP acting like you can associate TODAY'S
> justice in the REAL world to a FICTIONAL WORLD'S justice...
I CAN associate my opinions on actions within Xenas universe, you can't
say that I can't because I already have, and it makes perfectly logical
sense.
> >> Im sure there's plenty of controversial issues
> >> to discuss about REAL WORLD events some other place... But if you post
> >here, at
> >> the XENA NEWS GROUP, don't make a whole huge stupid arguement based on how
> >> things work in THE REAL WORLD, please?
> >
> >I never started this, it's you and TarkD who are arguing with me, I made
> >a statement: "Xena murdered Callisto", and now YOU and TARKD are
> >argueing against it...actually Tarkd has had his argueing privilages
> >taken away from him recently.
> >
>
> My point wasn't whether you started it or not, it's that here at the Xena NG,
You blamed ME for this arguement, as if the fact that we are argueing is
my fault, I can't help disagreeing with you, I dind't even start the
arguement for crying out loud, I never even wanted an arguement,
somebody else started it, and I've simply held my ground ever since, and
very nicely I might add.
> quit acting like it's so muc like the real world, ok?
I don't understand what the hell you are talking about, if I can't base
my *REAL WORLD* opinions on the matter, then neither can you, and your
guilty of the same crime as I am.
> That IS what you're
> doing, don't deny it.
I'm not denying anything. I'm giving my *REAL WORLD* opinions on the
matter, there is no way I could give anything else without lying.
> So, I'm sure there's some real-life murders going on
> every day in the real world. Go talk about them with other people. Go argue if
> those people deserved to be killed.
Why not? I'm going to do jury duty in a few days anyhow...
> If I did, I'd, of course, see things in a
> TOTALLY DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW from how I see the Xena/Callisto thing....Ya
> know, because (here I go again) XENA IS FICTIONAL, THE REAL WORLD IS REAL.
> They're different in so many ways, so don't compare them, OK?
I'm not compairing fantasy with reality, I am simply giving my opinions
on a matter.
> >> It just doesn't make sense.... and
> >> that's a fact.
> >>
> >> BD
> >
> >Hey...heres an original concept for you to grasp: MAYBE YOUR WRONG.
> >Did that ever cross your mind? No, I'll bet it never does cross your
> >mind...afterall, how can you be wrong? Your you! Your never wrong!
> >YIPPPIEEE!!!
> >
>
> I'd admit it if I was wrong. But you have yet to show me one shred of proof
> that would even make me think for a second that I was wrong. And I'm sure you
> NEVER WILL show me anything in terms of facts to back yourself up, so I won't
> hold my breath...
I'm sure even if I did show you something that logicly makes your
arguement look dwarfed you would never accept it, or you would ignore
it, or change the subject, or use spin doctoring techniqeus to avoid the
question. Oh well, I don't even care, I can sleep fine knowing somebody
else has a different opinion then me, can you?
> >-Lazarus- QUITS THESE PATHETIC ARGUEMENTS, as I should have done a week
> >ago.
>
> The only thing that makes them pathetic is YOU.
>
> BD
Yeah, thats it. It's all my fault, nothing is your fault...
-Lazarus-
Rubicant
>
> >This is the end TarkD, I read about 2 replies to your post, and realized
> >you are irrational.<<
First of all BDangelico, this was not addressed to you, so you have no
right to BUTT your big head into this, Second of all I have no problem
with you or TarkD, I just think you both need to calm down and
relax...nobody is attacking you.
> Hmm, sounds like someone was a LITTLE SCARED to answer Tarkd's questions
> directly FOR ONCE... He brough up A LOT of good points to questions YOU NEVER
> REALLY ANSWERED. Why HAVE you never answered them? Let me guess: you have no
> real answers.
LOL! I'm literally laughing at the thought of attempting to continue
arguing Callisto with TarkD. There is no way in a cold hell you are
going to convince me to waste my time writing more essays for TarkD.
Any of his questions I can answer, but it's proven itself to be useless,
I'll reply to him with an esay, he'll reply to me with an essay, I'll
reply to him with another essay, and he'll reply to me with another
essay...it's becoming redundant, and pretty fucking rediculous. I
started to answer his essay (that yuou claim I was "scared" of), but
once I got insulted i realized how weak he is, and how useless this
whole arguement really is. I don't NEED to insult anyone to prove my
point, only the ignorant man does.
> No, HE'S not the bad arguer, YOU are. YOU say he dodges questions, but I never
> seen him do that. But YOU, you ALWAYS do. I STILL haven't seen you answer one
> very important question Tarkd brought up: what WOULD and what COULD be done
> with Callisto that wouldn't endanger more innocent peoples' lives?
I will argue with you, not with TarkD...so go ahead, ask me a question.
I'm not "afraid", but bear in mind, if it becomes an essay I'm not going
to reply.
> I'm am equally annoyned with you, ok? If you wonder WHY, you shouldn't. You say
> we're the ones that are backed into a corner and bringing up irrelevant
> details, while you dodge all the major and important questions we repeatedly
> ask you. You say opinions that you, for some reason, THINK are more important
> than our facts we present you... Guess what? THEY'RE NOT.
Make a list of the three or four of -the most- important questions of
your/tarkd's arguement, and I'll answer them, and then you'll know that
I'm not "afraid" to dodge any of your questions.
> >> I realized that you aren't even worth writing to, because you
> >don't know how to communicate. <<
>
> And what do you call it when you dodge all our questions with the same stupid
> reply over and over? That's reaaaaal good communication...
You are way too vague.
> But ya didn't say I couldn't reply...
>
> BD
Reply, sure, I have no problem with you. Ask me any question your heart
desires...ANYTHING, it's ALL good, but when I reply please don't reply
to my reply so I'll have to reply to your reply of my reply and then
you'll have to reply to that, and so on, and so on, and so on, because
it's getting REAL FUCKING REDUNDANT!
-Lazarus-
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: don't know how to communicate. I take it back when I said I wish you
: peace, because I know know that you don't have peace at this point in
: your life, and will never achieve peace with your attitude. Simply
: put: you are a fool that isn't worth my time, one more thing: don't
: even bother replying to this...
To quote Tank Girl: "I win!"
To anyone else reading this, I gave Lazarus a challenge several
time over the last several days to come up with a way to neutralize
Callisto as a danger without killing her, a way that would work for sure.
He's evaded answering that question over and over, and today I
told him that if he didn't answer it directly, we had nothing to talk
about.
Obviously this is a lame excuse to get out of answering a question
that he knows would defeat his poorly thought out arguments that generally
had little to do with the subject at hand.
That's fine by me. I'm sick of taking the time out of my day to
discuss this crap anyway.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:>This is the end TarkD, I read about 2 replies to your post, and realized
:>you are irrational.<<
: Hmm, sounds like someone was a LITTLE SCARED to answer Tarkd's questions
: directly FOR ONCE... He brough up A LOT of good points to questions YOU NEVER
: REALLY ANSWERED. Why HAVE you never answered them? Let me guess: you have no
: real answers.
My point exactly. LAz is running scared!
:>> I tried to argue with you, but to be blunt, you are
:>a bad arguer, you insult people, and you bring up useless facts to *try*
:>and prove your intelligence (like facts about hitler in ww2), and bring
:>up the useless to do the oppositte for me (complaining about spelling
:>errors, the *ultimate* anal thing somebody can do on in usenet) and your
:>sole goal seems not to be to learn and to teach, but rather to attempt
:>to prove some kind of superiority.<<
: No, HE'S not the bad arguer, YOU are. YOU say he dodges questions, but I never
: seen him do that. But YOU, you ALWAYS do. I STILL haven't seen you answer one
: very important question Tarkd brought up: what WOULD and what COULD be done
: with Callisto that wouldn't endanger more innocent peoples' lives?
Yeah!
:>> You started this arguement, and I
:>replied, but then you got frustrated (with what you think is me, but is
:>really just yourself) and when I thought it was time to go, and leave
:>you trapped in your own ironheadedness, you invited me back into the
:>arguement, I came back, but now I see that you have no respect for
:>anybody. <<
: I'm am equally annoyned with you, ok? If you wonder WHY, you shouldn't. You say
: we're the ones that are backed into a corner and bringing up irrelevant
: details, while you dodge all the major and important questions we repeatedly
: ask you. You say opinions that you, for some reason, THINK are more important
: than our facts we present you... Guess what? THEY'RE NOT.
Even worse, he thinks those opinions are FACTS. Talk about being
full of yourself.
:>> I realized that you aren't even worth writing to, because you
:>don't know how to communicate. <<
: And what do you call it when you dodge all our questions with the same stupid
: reply over and over? That's reaaaaal good communication...
:>> I take it back when I said I wish you
:>peace, because I know know that you don't have peace at this point in
:>your life, and will never achieve peace with your attitude. Simply
:>put: you are a fool that isn't worth my time, one more thing: don't
:>even bother replying to this...
:>
:>-Lazarus-
: But ya didn't say I couldn't reply...
And I didn't feel the need to have my actions dictated by him,
either.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> Hmm, sounds like someone was a LITTLE SCARED to answer Tarkd's questions
:> directly FOR ONCE... He brough up A LOT of good points to questions YOU NEVER
:> REALLY ANSWERED. Why HAVE you never answered them? Let me guess: you have no
:> real answers.
: LOL! I'm literally laughing at the thought of attempting to continue
: arguing Callisto with TarkD. There is no way in a cold hell you are
: going to convince me to waste my time writing more essays for TarkD.
Translation: Oh, shit, they're on to me!
: Any of his questions I can answer, but it's proven itself to be useless,
: I'll reply to him with an esay, he'll reply to me with an essay, I'll
: reply to him with another essay, and he'll reply to me with another
: essay...it's becoming redundant, and pretty fucking rediculous. I
: started to answer his essay (that yuou claim I was "scared" of), but
: once I got insulted i realized how weak he is, and how useless this
: whole arguement really is. I don't NEED to insult anyone to prove my
: point, only the ignorant man does.
You never tried to answer the question, you evaded it by trying to
claim it wasn't necessary since we couldn't know the future. Well, NO ONE
could read the future but the past spoke for itself, and you never even so
much as admitted that there might be a danger to prepare for.
This isn't answering the question, it's avoiding it.
:> No, HE'S not the bad arguer, YOU are. YOU say he dodges questions, but I never
:> seen him do that. But YOU, you ALWAYS do. I STILL haven't seen you answer one
:> very important question Tarkd brought up: what WOULD and what COULD be done
:> with Callisto that wouldn't endanger more innocent peoples' lives?
: I will argue with you, not with TarkD...so go ahead, ask me a question.
: I'm not "afraid", but bear in mind, if it becomes an essay I'm not going
: to reply.
Quick, BD, ask my question again!
:> I'm am equally annoyned with you, ok? If you wonder WHY, you shouldn't. You say
:> we're the ones that are backed into a corner and bringing up irrelevant
:> details, while you dodge all the major and important questions we repeatedly
:> ask you. You say opinions that you, for some reason, THINK are more important
:> than our facts we present you... Guess what? THEY'RE NOT.
: Make a list of the three or four of -the most- important questions of
: your/tarkd's arguement, and I'll answer them, and then you'll know that
: I'm not "afraid" to dodge any of your questions.
Of course you aren't afraid to dodge them, you've been doing that
since the Hoover administration. It's ANSWERING them that you are afraid
of.
BDangelico
>>
>> Again, I'll say: XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS IS NOT REALITY.
>
>the situation can be based in reality using miniscule substitutions,
>analogies, and such...
>
Not accurately though. You have to look at the situation in a different point
of view, as if you were a person in the Xenaverse. If I were to go to a foreign
country, I wouldn't assume all the laws were the same, would you? Of course
not...
>> >> If you wanna argue
>> >> about the REAL WORLD'S justice and court systems, like I said before, go
>to
>> >a
>> >> current events news group, ok?
>> >
>> >I don't...never said or implied that. I'm argueing my concept of
>> >justice.
>>
>> Your concept of justice seems to be based on how thing work in the real
>world,
>> though.
>
>It's just my opinion based on the subject. I agree Callisto was
>dangerous, I agree that if there was evidence that her dangerousness
>would effect somebody in the future force would be neccessary to stop
>her. I also agree that it's most likely that Callisto would have to
>die. I agree with ALOT of your arguements. Where my agreements stop is
>in *the way* Callisto was killed, in cold blood, and out of anger.
>
Ya see, in the Xenaverse, there are NO COPS, like today. So, some people HAVE
TO take the law into their own hands. If it were today, a normal human being
killing a dangerous person would have to be examined closely. I mean, the only
thing you should do really is try to and contain the person, then wait for the
cops to arrive. But, this is where the major difference is. Like I said, there
are no cops in the Xenaverse, and Callisto was not merely a dangerous human
being, she was a god. So, you see, I can look at such similar events in totally
a different point of view just because they're taking place in COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT WORLDS. That doesn't sound weird, does it?
>> Do I have to say the Xenaverse IS NOT the real world, or do you
>> understand by now?
>
>This situation can be argued using my concept (which is nearly parrallel
>to todays form) of justice though. I'm not argueing details, or law
>books, I'm not lawyer, I'm just saying Callisto was killed in cold blood
>and out of anger, and thats wrong. I can't believe how anybody can
>disagree that Callisto was killed in cold blood, or that she was killed
>in anger.
>
I just said HOW DIFFERENT a fictional world is from the real world, so I won't
say it again. And as for being killed in anger: NO WAY. Like I said, do you
really think Xena would have killed Ares (or even just some guy) if he was to
have laughed at Gab's death like Callisto did? I don't think so...
>> EVERYTHING works differently in the Xenaverse from the
>> real world, they're uncomparable, so STOP acting like you can associate
>TODAY'S
>> justice in the REAL world to a FICTIONAL WORLD'S justice...
>
>I CAN associate my opinions on actions within Xenas universe, you can't
>say that I can't because I already have, and it makes perfectly logical
>sense.
>
I've already said how much sense it DOESN'T make to do that. If you were in a
foreign country, you'd have to look at their laws WAY differently from how you
look at the USAs laws. If you didn't, who knows what consequences would happen.
I know some foreign countries have strange laws, but when you judge it, don't
base it on your home's laws, or everything will be mixed up.
>> quit acting like it's so much like the real world, ok?
>
>I don't understand what the hell you are talking about, if I can't base
>my *REAL WORLD* opinions on the matter, then neither can you, and your
>guilty of the same crime as I am.
I DON'T base my opinions on the real world. Where have you been.... Here's what
I'm trying ta say: base your real world opinions on real world matters (makes
sense, right?). BUT, when talking about fictional worlds, look at how things
work, what people do, THEN make opinions on the events that happen BASED ON how
that fictional world works. I think that makes sense, and that's how I form MY
opinions.
>
>> So, I'm sure there's some real-life murders going on
>> every day in the real world. Go talk about them with other people. Go argue
>if
>> those people deserved to be killed.
>
>Why not? I'm going to do jury duty in a few days anyhow...
>
Exactly, why not? SO GO. The way you base your arguements and opinions,
real-life situations and murders might be more suitable for you than this
fictional Xenaverse...
>> I'd admit it if I was wrong. But you have yet to show me one shred of proof
>> that would even make me think for a second that I was wrong. And I'm sure
>you
>> NEVER WILL show me anything in terms of facts to back yourself up, so I
>won't
>> hold my breath...
>
>I'm sure even if I did show you something that logicly makes your
>arguement look dwarfed you would never accept it, or you would ignore
>it, or change the subject, or use spin doctoring techniqeus to avoid the
>question. Oh well, I don't even care, I can sleep fine knowing somebody
>else has a different opinion then me, can you?
>
TRUST ME. Show me facts to back up ANY part of your arguement, and I'll totally
admit it's true. But give me opinions about opinions on opinions and I'll
ignore them.
BD
BDangelico
>> Hmm, sounds like someone was a LITTLE SCARED to answer Tarkd's questions
>> directly FOR ONCE... He brough up A LOT of good points to questions YOU
>NEVER
>> REALLY ANSWERED. Why HAVE you never answered them? Let me guess: you have
>no
>> real answers.
>
>LOL! I'm literally laughing at the thought of attempting to continue
>arguing Callisto with TarkD. There is no way in a cold hell you are
>going to convince me to waste my time writing more essays for TarkD.
>I'll reply to him with an esay, he'll reply to me with an essay, I'll
>reply to him with another essay, and he'll reply to me with another
>essay...it's becoming redundant, and pretty fucking rediculous. I
>started to answer his essay (that yuou claim I was "scared" of), but
>once I got insulted i realized how weak he is, and how useless this
>whole arguement really is. I don't NEED to insult anyone to prove my
>point, only the ignorant man does.
You STILL never said WHY you never directly answered his good questions...
>
>> No, HE'S not the bad arguer, YOU are. YOU say he dodges questions, but I
>never
>> seen him do that. But YOU, you ALWAYS do. I STILL haven't seen you answer
>one
>> very important question Tarkd brought up: what WOULD and what COULD be done
>> with Callisto that wouldn't endanger more innocent peoples' lives?
>
>I will argue with you, not with TarkD...so go ahead, ask me a question.
>I'm not "afraid", but bear in mind, if it becomes an essay I'm not going
>to reply.
>
WHAT THE HELL. I JUST asked you a question! Before that Tarkd asked you it
10000 times! Still no answer, so I'll ask AGAIN: what WOULD and what COULD be
done with Callisto that wouldn't endanger more innocent peoples' lives?
>> I'm am equally annoyned with you, ok? If you wonder WHY, you shouldn't. You
>say
>> we're the ones that are backed into a corner and bringing up irrelevant
>> details, while you dodge all the major and important questions we
>repeatedly
>> ask you. You say opinions that you, for some reason, THINK are more
>important
>> than our facts we present you... Guess what? THEY'RE NOT.
>
>Make a list of the three or four of -the most- important questions of
>your/tarkd's arguement, and I'll answer them, and then you'll know that
>I'm not "afraid" to dodge any of your questions.
If you wanna read important questions, go read Tarkd's message that you were
AFRAID to read before. He pretty much just asks the same questions again that
you NEVER ORIGINALLY ANSWER DIRECTLY. I wonder why you never answered them....
My best guess: you can't. you don't know any real answers.
>
>> But ya didn't say I couldn't reply...
>>
>> BD
>
>Reply, sure, I have no problem with you. Ask me any question your heart
>desires...ANYTHING, it's ALL good, but when I reply please don't reply
>to my reply so I'll have to reply to your reply of my reply and then
>you'll have to reply to that, and so on, and so on, and so on, because
>it's getting REAL FUCKING REDUNDANT!
>
And I'M the one who needs to come down? Ok....
Rubicant
>
> Rubicant <yod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> : don't know how to communicate. I take it back when I said I wish you
> : peace, because I know know that you don't have peace at this point in
> : your life, and will never achieve peace with your attitude. Simply
> : put: you are a fool that isn't worth my time, one more thing: don't
> : even bother replying to this...
>
You only won because your a bigger loser then me, and I don't have
enough time to write giant essays for you because I work so much...if
you were to have asked me questions one (or two) at a time, and discuss
the points logicly without insulting people, then I would probably have
continued argueing with you.
> To anyone else reading this, I gave Lazarus a challenge several
> time over the last several days to come up with a way to neutralize
> Callisto as a danger without killing her, a way that would work for sure.
First of all, what does it matter what anybody else thinks who is
reading this...are you writing all this just to try to get people to
think something about you?
I'm not going to let you drag me back into the arguement, if you want to
ask me anymore questions or argue this further ask me it in a rational,
non-insulting manner. I will however answer this final question of
yours: how can one neutralize Callisto without killing her? The honest
answer: I don't know
> He's evaded answering that question over and over, and today I
> told him that if he didn't answer it directly, we had nothing to talk
> about.
I'm not evading anything, I have nothing to hide, bring it on, bring it
all on, but DON'T YOU DARE insult me, and expect me to continue argueing
with you.
> Obviously this is a lame excuse to get out of answering a question
> that he knows would defeat his poorly thought out arguments that generally
> had little to do with the subject at hand.
I already answered the question, so, there you have it...
> That's fine by me. I'm sick of taking the time out of my day to
> discuss this crap anyway.
so why in gods name are you baiting me back into this arguement?
-Lazarus Rubicant-
Rubicant
>
> : LOL! I'm literally laughing at the thought of attempting to continue
> : arguing Callisto with TarkD. There is no way in a cold hell you are
> : going to convince me to waste my time writing more essays for TarkD.
>
they're onto what? what the are you talking about? I think you are
just trying to waste my time.
> You never tried to answer the question, you evaded it by trying to
> claim it wasn't necessary since we couldn't know the future. Well, NO ONE
> could read the future but the past spoke for itself, and you never even so
> much as admitted that there might be a danger to prepare for.
I admit that there might have been a danger...does that make you happy?
> This isn't answering the question, it's avoiding it.
I'm not avoiding anything, I have nothing to hide.
> :> No, HE'S not the bad arguer, YOU are. YOU say he dodges questions, but I never
> :> seen him do that. But YOU, you ALWAYS do. I STILL haven't seen you answer one
> :> very important question Tarkd brought up: what WOULD and what COULD be done
> :> with Callisto that wouldn't endanger more innocent peoples' lives?
>
> : I will argue with you, not with TarkD...so go ahead, ask me a question.
> : I'm not "afraid", but bear in mind, if it becomes an essay I'm not going
> : to reply.
>
> Quick, BD, ask my question again!
ask, and I shall reply...I'm not afraid of anything, I'm just getting
bored and think this is completely pointless, and almost laughable...but
when the laughing stops is when I'm being insulted.
> Of course you aren't afraid to dodge them, you've been doing that
> since the Hoover administration. It's ANSWERING them that you are afraid
> of.
Lets get something straight here: there is nothing you can do that can
make me scared in any way whatsoever. I actually think this duscussion
is funny, I think your funny (both in a good way and a bad way).
-Lazarus-
Rubicant
>
> BDangelico <bdang...@aol.com> wrote:
> :>This is the end TarkD, I read about 2 replies to your post, and realized
> :>you are irrational.<<
>
> : directly FOR ONCE... He brough up A LOT of good points to questions YOU NEVER
> : REALLY ANSWERED. Why HAVE you never answered them? Let me guess: you have no
> : real answers.
>
Oh yeah, I'm shivering in my boots...
> Even worse, he thinks those opinions are FACTS. Talk about being
> full of yourself.
Maybe these opinions that I consirder facts actually are facts, but you
just aren't smart enough to understand them. Name 1 opinion that I use
that I calim is a fact, use the best case scenario.
> And I didn't feel the need to have my actions dictated by him,
> either.
It was a suggestion, I thought you could just let it go, BUT IT APPEARS
AS THOUGH NOBODY CAN KICK SENSE INTO THAT THICK HELMET YOU CALL A
BRAIN...and thats why I can't argue with you, you are just too damn
irrational, and you are a cheater, cheaters use things like spelling
errors, and whatnot to try and put down the oppossing arguer...cheaters
argue for the sake of being "right", cheaters argue because they are
insecure, and need reassurance. I'm guessing you want the reassurance
of whoever is reading this...You are intelligent, but no more
intelligent then me, and you have the thickest skull I have encountered
online beating even myself...Argueing with somebody who solely wants to
be "right" is pointless, because they don't even care about the
arguement, all they want to is reassurance, thus they will argue
forever, until they prove to themselves that they are superior even if
they aren't.
-Lazarus
Rubicant
>
> I just said HOW DIFFERENT a fictional world is from the real world, so I won't
> say it again. And as for being killed in anger: NO WAY. Like I said, do you
> really think Xena would have killed Ares (or even just some guy) if he was to
> have laughed at Gab's death like Callisto did? I don't think so...
why did Xena have to kill her right then and there?
Would she have killed Ares if he said the same? I don't
know...possibly, I honsetly have no idea what she would have done, AND
NIETHER DO YOU. THESE ARE FACTS BDANGELO, FACTS YOU CLAIM I DON'T
ARGUE. You claim that YOU argue with facts, well what the hell is "do
you really think Xena would have killed Ares (or even just some guy) if
he was to have laughed at Gab's death like Callisto did? I don't think
so..."? A FUCKING OPINION! You are argueing your opinions against my
facts, so now it should be pretty fucking clear to you that you are just
as guilty as you claim I am.
> >I CAN associate my opinions on actions within Xenas universe, you can't
> >say that I can't because I already have, and it makes perfectly logical
> >sense.
> >
> I've already said how much sense it DOESN'T make to do that.
So what your saying is that it makes no sense for somebody to give there
opinions on an issue in the xena universe...thats complete bullshit.
> If you were in a
> foreign country, you'd have to look at their laws WAY differently from how you
> look at the USAs laws.
What about if you went back to the days when Prince Dracula ruled, and
burned poor people, drank peoples blood, and impaled thousands, would
that be "justice" in your book? It was to him, in his "law", so it must
be justice right?...WRONG, justice is a concept, not some flexible
material.
> >I don't understand what the hell you are talking about, if I can't base
> >my *REAL WORLD* opinions on the matter, then neither can you, and your
> >guilty of the same crime as I am.
>
> I DON'T base my opinions on the real world. Where have you been....
so basicly, you base your arguements in fantasy...
> Here's what
> I'm trying ta say: base your real world opinions on real world matters (makes
> sense, right?). BUT, when talking about fictional worlds, look at how things
> work, what people do, THEN make opinions on the events that happen BASED ON how
> that fictional world works. I think that makes sense, and that's how I form MY
> opinions.
I have my opinion on the matter, and it does not have to conform with
the laws of way back when, or wherever.
> TRUST ME. Show me facts to back up ANY part of your arguement, and I'll totally
> admit it's true. But give me opinions about opinions on opinions and I'll
> ignore them.
>
> BD
I'm not the one who wishes to perpetuate this arguement. I have nothing
to ask you because I don't care that you have a different opinion then
me...feel the way you do, and see if I care.
-lazarus-
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: ta...@IfYouSpamMeIWillHaveYouKilled.cris.com wrote:
:>
:> : LOL! I'm literally laughing at the thought of attempting to continue
:> : arguing Callisto with TarkD. There is no way in a cold hell you are
:> : going to convince me to waste my time writing more essays for TarkD.
:>
:> Translation: Oh, shit, they're on to me!
: they're onto what? what the are you talking about? I think you are
: just trying to waste my time.
Actually, that's just what we've figured out about YOU: You want
to waste our time.
:> You never tried to answer the question, you evaded it by trying to
:> claim it wasn't necessary since we couldn't know the future. Well, NO ONE
:> could read the future but the past spoke for itself, and you never even so
:> much as admitted that there might be a danger to prepare for.
: I admit that there might have been a danger...does that make you happy?
Actually, it does, a bit. That's the first time you've admitted to
anything at all.
Now take it one step further: What methods, that would work for
sure, with no room for doubt, would you use to prevent that possible
danger from ever coming true? Like you say, we don't know if it will or
not. I hope you can agree that it's better safe than sorry. So how would
you keep Callisto from even having the opportunity to be that danger?
I, personally, like the way it was done. Callisto died and that
both punishes her for her past crimes and prevents her from committing any
more. But you think she shouldn't have been killed. Okay, you're entitled
to that opinion, but then how would you keep Callisto from being a danger
without killing her?
: I'm not avoiding anything, I have nothing to hide.
Then answer the above question without evading the issue that it
being asked quite directly. That's all I ask.
:> : I will argue with you, not with TarkD...so go ahead, ask me a question.
:> : I'm not "afraid", but bear in mind, if it becomes an essay I'm not going
:> : to reply.
:>
:> Quick, BD, ask my question again!
: ask, and I shall reply...I'm not afraid of anything, I'm just getting
: bored and think this is completely pointless, and almost laughable...but
: when the laughing stops is when I'm being insulted.
Well, I admit a certain fondness for the term "freakshow", but if
you hadn't kept the being a circular argument by never answering the
questions asked to you directly, they might not have even come up, these
opportunities to insult you.
:> Of course you aren't afraid to dodge them, you've been doing that
:> since the Hoover administration. It's ANSWERING them that you are afraid
:> of.
: Lets get something straight here: there is nothing you can do that can
: make me scared in any way whatsoever. I actually think this duscussion
: is funny, I think your funny (both in a good way and a bad way).
Well, I'm starting to prefer the bad way.
Seriously, if you aren't afraid (and the only thing I can think
that you COULD be afraid of in this case is losing this argument; I'm not
about to figure out where you are and stalk your ass) then answer those
questions. And answer them _as_asked_ rather than changing the subject.
BDangelico
I wrote about having to take the law into your own hands sometimes in the
Xenaverse. Just proves it to me even more how you avoid all the important
things I bring up...
>BDangelico wrote:
>>
>> I just said HOW DIFFERENT a fictional world is from the real world, so I
>won't
>> say it again. And as for being killed in anger: NO WAY. Like I said, do you
>> really think Xena would have killed Ares (or even just some guy) if he was
>to
>> have laughed at Gab's death like Callisto did? I don't think so...
>
>why did Xena have to kill her right then and there?
>
Why not. She had a good chance.
>Would she have killed Ares if he said the same? I don't
>know...possibly, I honsetly have no idea what she would have done, AND
>NIETHER DO YOU. THESE ARE FACTS BDANGELO, FACTS YOU CLAIM I DON'T
>ARGUE. You claim that YOU argue with facts, well what the hell is "do
>you really think Xena would have killed Ares (or even just some guy) if
>he was to have laughed at Gab's death like Callisto did? I don't think
>so..."? A FUCKING OPINION! You are argueing your opinions against my
>facts, so now it should be pretty fucking clear to you that you are just
>as guilty as you claim I am.
>
Funny, I said 'I don't THINK' and 'DO YOU THINK'. I didn't say 'XENA DEFINITELY
WOULDN'T.' In other words, of course it IS opinion, but I'm not acting like
it's a fact and I'm not using it to back up anything. Just a thought I had...
>So what your saying is that it makes no sense for somebody to give there
>opinions on an issue in the xena universe...thats complete bullshit.
>
No, you can, by all means, GO AHEAD. But when dealing with killing and courts
and justice, you HAVE TO look at it from a different perspective. In Xena's
world, I'd agree that killing a GOD with a past of murdering men, women, and
children and being completely unpredictable and dangerous would be just.
However, if I looked at it through the real world's justice in a real world
situation, I'd look at it COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY. There are no GODS in the real
world, so I'll just say a really dangerous guy with a past of murdering. Now,
ya see, in the real world, the most any normal person should do is try to
neutralize or contain the bad guy until the law arrives to take care of the
rest. So if I heard a normal person killed a murderer (for WHATEVER reason) I'd
have to base my judgement on the situation WAYYY differently from my judgement
on the whole Xena/Callisto thing. See what I did? That's what YOU should try to
do. It actually DOES make sense.
>> If you were in a
>> foreign country, you'd have to look at their laws WAY differently from how
>you
>> look at the USAs laws.
>
>What about if you went back to the days when Prince Dracula ruled, and
>burned poor people, drank peoples blood, and impaled thousands, would
>that be "justice" in your book? It was to him, in his "law", so it must
>be justice right?...WRONG, justice is a concept, not some flexible
>material.
>
First of all, what the hell are you talking about? Dracula? Your scenario
doesn't help you much. It's screwed up. I might as well say is it justice for
Johnny Blob to eat thousands of people on Planet Mars. Doesn't make sense,
right? Neither does yours. I'm pretty sure in any form of justice killing
without some good reason would be considered, well, WRONG. So, no, Drac killing
all those people is not justice, either looking at it through a villager who he
kills' shoes, or from my own perspective.
>> I DON'T base my opinions on the real world. Where have you been....
>
>so basicly, you base your arguements in fantasy...
>
And Xena: Warrior Princess ISN'T fantasy? Are you saying the events in the show
ARE REAL?! Cool, I never knew!
>> Here's what
>> I'm trying ta say: base your real world opinions on real world matters
>(makes
>> sense, right?). BUT, when talking about fictional worlds, look at how
>things
>> work, what people do, THEN make opinions on the events that happen BASED ON
>how
>> that fictional world works. I think that makes sense, and that's how I form
>MY
>> opinions.
>
>I have my opinion on the matter, and it does not have to conform with
>the laws of way back when, or wherever.
>
Then your opinions mean NOTHING to this arguement. If all you want to do is
base your opinions on the real world, then ONLY TALK ABOUT THE REAL WORLD.
Makes sense...
>> TRUST ME. Show me facts to back up ANY part of your arguement, and I'll
>totally
>> admit it's true. But give me opinions about opinions on opinions and I'll
>> ignore them.
>>
>> BD
>
>I'm not the one who wishes to perpetuate this arguement. I have nothing
>to ask you because I don't care that you have a different opinion then
>me...feel the way you do, and see if I care.
>
>-lazarus-
Whatever.
BD
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> My point exactly. LAz is running scared!
: Oh yeah, I'm shivering in my boots...
Really? Are they combat boots? Did you get them from you mother?
(Sorry, I couldn't resist, you're just such an easy target)
:> Even worse, he thinks those opinions are FACTS. Talk about being
:> full of yourself.
: Maybe these opinions that I consirder facts actually are facts, but you
: just aren't smart enough to understand them. Name 1 opinion that I use
: that I calim is a fact, use the best case scenario.
Gosh, I'd like to, but I'm having myself fed through a paper
shredder tonight. Tell you what: instead, why don't you go back and read
the 300 or so posts in which we specify the opinions you state as fact as
they come up...
:> And I didn't feel the need to have my actions dictated by him,
:> either.
: It was a suggestion, I thought you could just let it go, BUT IT APPEARS
: AS THOUGH NOBODY CAN KICK SENSE INTO THAT THICK HELMET YOU CALL A
: BRAIN
Of course not. Sense is supposed to be inserted through the nose
gently with tweezers and a Q-tip. Didn't your mother teach you ANYTHING?
: ...and thats why I can't argue with you, you are just too damn
: irrational, and you are a cheater, cheaters use things like spelling
: errors,
That was supposed to be helpful to you, actually. You come off
like a ten-year-old net geek when you spell excessively poorly and use
grammar that would make Yoda blush. Maybe you'll be taken more seriously
if you don't seem pre-pubescent.
: and whatnot to try and put down the oppossing arguer...cheaters
: argue for the sake of being "right", cheaters argue because they are
: insecure, and need reassurance. I'm guessing you want the reassurance
: of whoever is reading this...
Lousy guess. I don't need to be told when I'm right... But the
challenge of making you see that you were wrong (amazingly, flashily, hard
to miss wrong) was hard to pass up.
: You are intelligent, but no more
: intelligent then me,
I'll stack my ability to sort and analyze data, ponder
philosophies of life, and general working knowlege of history, law, and
physics against your third grade intellect any day.
: and you have the thickest skull I have encountered
: online beating even myself...
Really? Yet I'm not the one who can only come up with one response
to every hard question asked of me: "Callisto hasn't killed anyone yet!"
Which is, of course, totally false, but even within the context of how you
meant it that statement was hopelessly dense...
: Argueing with somebody who solely wants to
: be "right" is pointless, because they don't even care about the
: arguement, all they want to is reassurance, thus they will argue
: forever, until they prove to themselves that they are superior even if
: they aren't.
Or maybe they don't care to CONTINUE to argue, they simply want to
reach a conclusion...but they care too much to simply allow an incorrect
conclusion to be seen as the right one.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> To anyone else reading this, I gave Lazarus a challenge several
:> time over the last several days to come up with a way to neutralize
:> Callisto as a danger without killing her, a way that would work for sure.
: First of all, what does it matter what anybody else thinks who is
: reading this...are you writing all this just to try to get people to
: think something about you?
Hey, I figure that the truth needs to be told. And the truth of
the matter is that you tried to turn tail and run as soon as the questions
got tough.
: I'm not going to let you drag me back into the arguement, if you want to
: ask me anymore questions or argue this further ask me it in a rational,
: non-insulting manner. I will however answer this final question of
: yours: how can one neutralize Callisto without killing her? The honest
: answer: I don't know
Well, it's about time! That was just the answer I was waiting for.
Now, if you don't know how to neutralize Callisto without killing
her, then what makes you think that killing her wasn't the best course of
action? I mean, if Callisto _does_ decide to kill again, she'll likely
kill more than just one person, and in fact, even before her death
Callisto killed many many people, including several who were close to the
protagonists of this show. So how can you justify allowing a known killer
who has given no signs of having reformed to just go away, not knowing if
she will kill again? How can you justify allowing such a risk to innocent
lives go free, if you don't know how to stop her? Just because she hasn't
killed again doesn't mean she won't and it doesn't mean that she will. But
how can her one life be worth more than the lives she will end if she does
kill again? She's already killed before, we know that she has taken more
lives than her single one is worth, why shouldn't she die both for her
crimes and to keep her from adding more crimes onto that record?
:> He's evaded answering that question over and over, and today I
:> told him that if he didn't answer it directly, we had nothing to talk
:> about.
: I'm not evading anything, I have nothing to hide, bring it on, bring it
: all on, but DON'T YOU DARE insult me, and expect me to continue argueing
: with you.
Fine. But if you truly have nothing to hide, then stop hiding
behind the idea that Callisto shouldn't be killed for a crime "she didn't
committ". I know you believe this, but there are some questions that need
answering and you cannot answer them if this is the only thing you will
say. I mean, find, you don't think that Callisto should be killed just in
case she might kill again, but why should she be allowed to kill for even
less of a reason? Are the lives she has ended and could still end later
really worth just her one life? You cannot answer this question if you
just repeat that reason. It doesn't even answer the question, really, it
merely avoids it.
If Xena hadn't killed Callisto, and Callisto then went out and
killed again, I want some good, justified reason why those people dying
was worth it. I want to know why Callisto's life is worth the cost of
theirs. I even want justification for the lives she killed in the past,
but that may be too big a step for right now, so just answer the first
part.
Because if you can do it, you might still prove your point to me.
But right now, I think that you have placed more value on Callisto's life
(and existence that I consider evil and one that should be wiped out) to
be worth more than that of those she has killed and even those she might
kill, and I'd like to know the reasoning behind that. It seems flawed and
it seems biased, and it seems like you have a crush on Hudson. So,
explain, if you can.
:> Obviously this is a lame excuse to get out of answering a question
:> that he knows would defeat his poorly thought out arguments that generally
:> had little to do with the subject at hand.
: I already answered the question, so, there you have it...
And how long did it take to reach the point where you _would_
answer it?
:> That's fine by me. I'm sick of taking the time out of my day to
:> discuss this crap anyway.
: so why in gods name are you baiting me back into this arguement?
Well, I wasn't, I was simply getting in a parting shot. But since
you seem willing to finally answer a question or two without avoiding
it...
Callistoee
>Now take it one step further: What methods, that would work for
>sure, with no room for doubt, would you use to prevent that possible
>danger from ever coming true? Like you say, we don't know if it will or
>not. I hope you can agree that it's better safe than sorry. So how would
>you keep Callisto from even having the opportunity to be that danger?
>I, personally, like the way it was done. Callisto died and that both
>punishes her for her past crimes and prevents her from committing any
>more. But you think she shouldn't have been killed. Okay, you're
>entitled to that opinion, but then how would you keep Callisto from being
>a danger without killing her?
Perhaps you didn't read my last reply to you, so I'm going to deal with this
one last time. I have a very simple answer to your question of what alternate
ways there were of dealing with Callisto that were certain to work. Here it
is: There are *no* certain ways to keep Callisto from being a danger. Neither
killing her nor whatever else one might try. I'll bet when Xena killed her or
let her die before, she was pretty certain that those were permanent solutions.
They weren't. That's the difference between this world and the Xenaverse. No
one's ever come back from the dead in this world. Callisto has come back
*several* times. The Hind's blood dagger can kill a god, and there wasn't
anything to indicate that a god so killed could come back to life, but if you
look at the odds of how many times Callisto has managed to cheat death, there's
a 100% failure rate to that approach. Now I really don't care much about this
argument, but it does show that by killing Callisto, Xena was still taking a
chance. Its only a question of weighing relative chances to determine what is
most likely to succeed and then weighing the additional consideration of what
is morally right, if you think that what is morally right should be a
consideration. I went into excruciating detail of every reason why I thought
other approaches had significant odds of success in my last reply to you that
it looks like you didn't read. So if you want to know why I think that the
odds are significant, go back and read it. I'm moving on. Now, you're welcome
to think that the odds of successfully killing Callisto and keeping her dead
were higher, but realize that that is only an opinion, not a certainty.
You have assumed throughout, from what I've seen, that executing Callisto was
certain to work. Callisto was a skilled fighter to begin with and probably
even more so from being a god. If you want to argue that Xena made a decision
that killing Callisto had the best chance of being for the greater good,
consider how unlikely it seems that Xena could have just turned around and
stabbed her in the chest. We know from hindsight that she was able to, but
consider just how unlikely that was to work. Callisto knew Xena had the
dagger. She had walked up to Xena and had a great deal of time to consider
that. You would have to think that Callisto was out of her mind to not to have
considered that Xena would kill her if she thought Callisto wanted to go on
living to enjoy the suffering of others. Callisto had seemed loony at times,
but never a blithering idiot. The Hind's blood dagger had been her focus the
whole episode.
So the alternative is that Xena thought that Callisto was just goading her to
kill her and decided to give Callisto what she wanted. You could try to argue
that that was a mercy killing, but the problem is that Xena was only *guessing*
that that was the case. If she was wrong, she just killed someone who might
have just started to turn good. And if Xena *did* believe that Callisto was
sincere about wanting to live to see suffering in others, consider what happens
if Xena fails to kill Callisto. Callisto runs free to cause suffering in the
world when if Xena had merely stopped and tried to talk to her, there was a
chance that that could have been avoided. Callisto would have stopped herself
rather having to be stopped.
So any way you look at it, that I see, Xena was taking a considerable gamble,
and when you add in the fact that Xena looked to be in a furious rage when she
killed Callisto, yelling angrily, which telegraphed her blow, Xena killing
Callisto out of the same anger that used to motivate Callisto looks like a
plausible scenario to me. And that's the kind of thing people usually label as
"murder." But since there is no way to know for sure what Xena's motives were
and there's little you can do to weigh the potential risks of the different
alternatives against each other very well, I'd say its not very useful to
describe Xena's killing of Callisto as murder. No justice system would convict
her because Xena had the only means of dealing with her once she was a god.
She was not acting as a vigilante in violation of the law because the law had
no means of punishing a god.
And since it was never dealt with as to just what Xena was thinking at the
time, we'll never know unless it comes up in a future episode. Personally, I
was repulsed by the way Callisto was killed because I think there was
compelling evidence to show that Callisto might well be receptive to Xena's
help and, coupled with the fact that Callisto was not an immediate threat, I
think it was more than justified taking the risk of trying to help her. Since
Callisto no longer had any reason to live before that last scene, which IMO
makes her a *lot* less of a risk because the Hind's blood dagger was right
there in Xena's hands, so there was nothing immoral that Callisto would have
needed to do to get it, so the risk of trying to talk to Callisto then was low.
Also, if Xena truly believed that Callisto suddenly wanted to live again to go
right back to enjoying the suffering of others, she was a fool, IMO. If Xena
truly believed that, perhaps I might feel more sorry for her. Otherwise, no.
I'm not going to quibble over semantics of whether what Xena did was
technically murder or not by a modern vs. Xenaverse definition, but my respect
for Xena plummeted in that episode.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
: ta...@IfYouSpamMeIWillHaveYouKilled.cris.com wrote:
:>entitled to that opinion, but then how would you keep Callisto from being
: Perhaps you didn't read my last reply to you, so I'm going to deal with this
: one last time. I have a very simple answer to your question of what alternate
: ways there were of dealing with Callisto that were certain to work. Here it
: is: There are *no* certain ways to keep Callisto from being a danger. Neither
: killing her nor whatever else one might try. I'll bet when Xena killed her or
: let her die before, she was pretty certain that those were permanent solutions.
: They weren't. That's the difference between this world and the Xenaverse. No
: one's ever come back from the dead in this world. Callisto has come back
: *several* times. The Hind's blood dagger can kill a god, and there wasn't
: anything to indicate that a god so killed could come back to life, but if you
: look at the odds of how many times Callisto has managed to cheat death, there's
: a 100% failure rate to that approach.
It only has to work _once_. Now if Ares could just be kept from
interfering...
: Now I really don't care much about this
: argument, but it does show that by killing Callisto, Xena was still taking a
: chance.
But it is a much better chance than leaving Callisto alive. Alive,
Callisto could do murderous things to people, dead she's at least been
sent to the showers for unnecessary roughness. She may come back later,
but for now she's nicely contained.
: Its only a question of weighing relative chances to determine what is
: most likely to succeed and then weighing the additional consideration of what
: is morally right, if you think that what is morally right should be a
: consideration. I went into excruciating detail of every reason why I thought
: other approaches had significant odds of success in my last reply to you that
: it looks like you didn't read.
I've read every post in this thread. So far there has been NO
compelling evidence to show that anything but death would stop Callisto.
Maybe you thought you gave a really good example somewhere, but I've seen
nothing that was certain to work as well as killing her.
: So if you want to know why I think that the
: odds are significant, go back and read it. I'm moving on. Now, you're welcome
: to think that the odds of successfully killing Callisto and keeping her dead
: were higher, but realize that that is only an opinion, not a certainty.
I never said anything about the odds of being ABLE to kill her,
nor did I even address the idea of her staying dead or not. I merely said
that, given the situation shown, killing her was the best option, offered
the best chance of successfully protecting the world at large.
Look at it: cramped quarters, presence of the one weapon that can
kill a god, said god distracted by gleeful reveling in the misfortune of
another... It doesn't get much better than that.
: You have assumed throughout, from what I've seen, that executing Callisto was
: certain to work.
This is inocrrect. I've been saying that her successful execution
was certain to bring about a greater measure of safety for the world at
large. I have also said that trying to fight Callisto in that cave
presented better odds than letting her get into open ground. I've never
addressed the issue of whether it _would_ be successful to get a kill on
her or not, so you cannot say that I've had any opinion on it at all.
: So any way you look at it, that I see, Xena was taking a considerable gamble,
: and when you add in the fact that Xena looked to be in a furious rage when she
: killed Callisto, yelling angrily, which telegraphed her blow, Xena killing
: Callisto out of the same anger that used to motivate Callisto looks like a
: plausible scenario to me. And that's the kind of thing people usually label as
: "murder."
Killing is only murder when it isn't justified or accidental. When
it's accidental, it's manslaughter.
People seem to assume that, because Xena was angry at the time,
that her only motivation to kill Callisto was because of that silly little
comment Callisto made about Gabby dying. But Callisto had so much more to
answer for that this simply cannot be certain.
: But since there is no way to know for sure what Xena's motives were
: and there's little you can do to weigh the potential risks of the different
: alternatives against each other very well,
Part of the problem with your argument here is that you seem to
define the potential risks of varions Callisto-stopping methods in terms
of danger to the person trying those methods. I define them as risks to
_anyone_ Callisto might kill, innocent or combatant. In terms of sheer
number of people that could be saved in the shortest amount of time,
killing Callisto was the best course of action.
If any of the methods tried fail, the difference in the number of
future deaths is both undeterminable and probably negligible. So the only
way to measure the effectiveness of the various methods is the time it
will take to implement them and how well it would neutralize Callisto when
it worked.
: I'd say its not very useful to
: describe Xena's killing of Callisto as murder. No justice system would convict
: her because Xena had the only means of dealing with her once she was a god.
: She was not acting as a vigilante in violation of the law because the law had
: no means of punishing a god.
Well, that and the fact that "the law" in the Xenaverse is often
whatever one does to defend oneself since there's hardly a police force
short of local constabulary in various villages. And I really don't think
that there was any of those folk anywhere NEAR that cave that day.
ant...@y00hoo.com
>
> Before I start replying I just wanna say I like it how you snipped off the part
> I wrote about having to take the law into your own hands sometimes in the
> Xenaverse. Just proves it to me even more how you avoid all the important
> things I bring up...
I like it also, it's called: I CAN'T HELP IT! My mail browser will
only allow me to have a certain number of lines before it absoloutely
will not allow me to write any further. I have to snip certain parts,
your paranoid dilusions of me trying to mutate your arguements in my
faovr are as flat as an old soda with no cap. I wouldn't dare do
anything to ruin your arguement on purpose...If we are going to keep
argueing your going to have to stop accusing me of this paraniod stupid
shit.
> >why did Xena have to kill her right then and there?
> >
>
> Why not. She had a good chance.
you just avoided the question.
> >Would she have killed Ares if he said the same? I don't
> >know...possibly, I honsetly have no idea what she would have done, AND
> >NIETHER DO YOU. THESE ARE FACTS BDANGELO, FACTS YOU CLAIM I DON'T
> >ARGUE. You claim that YOU argue with facts, well what the hell is "do
> >you really think Xena would have killed Ares (or even just some guy) if
> >he was to have laughed at Gab's death like Callisto did? I don't think
> >so..."? A FUCKING OPINION! You are argueing your opinions against my
> >facts, so now it should be pretty fucking clear to you that you are just
> >as guilty as you claim I am.
> >
>
> Funny, I said 'I don't THINK' and 'DO YOU THINK'. I didn't say 'XENA DEFINITELY
> WOULDN'T.' In other words, of course it IS opinion, but I'm not acting like
> it's a fact and I'm not using it to back up anything. Just a thought I had...
Well, don't drag your thoughts into an arguement based on FACTS! YOUR
FACTS! The same FACTS you claim I toy with, you do the same damn shit
to me as you claim I do to you. You say "I don't THINK Xena would have
killed Ares" WELL WHAT THE FUCK RELEVENCE DOES THAT HAVE IN THIS
ARGUEMENT UNLESS YOU WERE ARGUEING IT?
> >So what your saying is that it makes no sense for somebody to give there
> >opinions on an issue in the xena universe...thats complete bullshit.
> >
> No, you can, by all means, GO AHEAD. But when dealing with killing and courts
> and justice, you HAVE TO look at it from a different perspective. In Xena's
> world, I'd agree that killing a GOD with a past of murdering men, women, and
> children and being completely unpredictable and dangerous would be just.
> However, if I looked at it through the real world's justice in a real world
> situation, I'd look at it COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY.
Your opinions are so flexible that when you enter another place you
conform to thier ideas? Thats a sign of severe stupidity.
> There are no GODS in the real
> world, so I'll just say a really dangerous guy with a past of murdering. Now,
> ya see, in the real world, the most any normal person should do is try to
> neutralize or contain the bad guy until the law arrives to take care of the
> rest. So if I heard a normal person killed a murderer (for WHATEVER reason) I'd
> have to base my judgement on the situation WAYYY differently from my judgement
> on the whole Xena/Callisto thing. See what I did? That's what YOU should try to
> do. It actually DOES make sense.
I'm basing my judgement with considerations to the fanatsy elements, but
that doesn't mean my opinions need to conform to those fantasy
elements. I'm not argueing Xena's laws, or this worlds laws, I'm
argueing my opinions, and I have facts to back them up...so WHA?
> >> If you were in a
> >> foreign country, you'd have to look at their laws WAY differently from how
> >you
> >> look at the USAs laws.
> >
> >What about if you went back to the days when Prince Dracula ruled, and
> >burned poor people, drank peoples blood, and impaled thousands, would
> >that be "justice" in your book? It was to him, in his "law", so it must
> >be justice right?...WRONG, justice is a concept, not some flexible
> >material.
> >
> First of all, what the hell are you talking about?
what? Are you too damn slow to figure it out?
> Dracula?
YES DRACULA...are we learning? Dracula was a real fucking person.
> Your scenario
> doesn't help you much. It's screwed up. I might as well say is it justice for
> Johnny Blob to eat thousands of people on Planet Mars.
It makes perfect crystal clear sense, you are argueing that justice is
determined by the authority enforcing the rules, I argue that justice is
a mathematical concept. I am proving your theory wrong by elaborating
on it's patheticness: Lets say the authority claims that it's ok for
people to kill each other, IS THAT JUSTICE? Well, in your mentality
which claims justice is created by any authority no matter how stupid or
corrupt the authoritys concept of justice is, well, thats simple
moronic. Justice is not about control and rules, it's about a
mathematical concept of peace.
> Doesn't make sense,
> right? Neither does yours. I'm pretty sure in any form of justice killing
> without some good reason would be considered, well, WRONG. So, no, Drac killing
> all those people is not justice, either looking at it through a villager who he
> kills' shoes, or from my own perspective.
Well, it WAS the law back then, and you did claim that "If you were in a
foreign country [a foriegn place], you'd have to look at their laws WAY
differently from how you look at the USAs laws." what way were you
talking about BDangelo? How would we have to look at it differently?
Would I have to consider murder to be justice if I were in a foriegn
place that made it legal?...You claim I do, then you claim I don't, then
you claim I do, then you claim I don't, you change your opinions when it
suits your side of the arguement...make up your fucking mind!
> >> I DON'T base my opinions on the real world. Where have you been....
> >
> >so basicly, you base your arguements in fantasy...
> >
> And Xena: Warrior Princess ISN'T fantasy? Are you saying the events in the show
> ARE REAL?! Cool, I never knew!
the show is fantasy, but your opinions are your opinions, and you live
in reality, so there is no way in hell anybody can base thier opinions
in fantasy unless they lived in fantasy.
> >> Here's what
> >> I'm trying ta say: base your real world opinions on real world matters
> >(makes
> >> sense, right?). BUT, when talking about fictional worlds, look at how
> >things
> >> work, what people do, THEN make opinions on the events that happen BASED ON
> >how
> >> that fictional world works. I think that makes sense, and that's how I form
> >MY
> >> opinions.
> >
> >I have my opinion on the matter, and it does not have to conform with
> >the laws of way back when, or wherever.
> >
> Then your opinions mean NOTHING to this arguement. If all you want to do is
> base your opinions on the real world, then ONLY TALK ABOUT THE REAL WORLD.
> Makes sense...
You make no sense, earlier on in this arguement you claimed that "Drac
killing all those people is not justice" and now you are telling me that
peoples states of mind must conform with the laws and systems of justice
in foreign areas. WHATS IT GONNA BE???? Do people have to conform to
laws to determine justice or can people have opinions of justice?
> >> TRUST ME. Show me facts to back up ANY part of your arguement, and I'll
> >totally
> >> admit it's true. But give me opinions about opinions on opinions and I'll
> >> ignore them.
> >>
> >> BD
-Lazarus-
ant...@y00hoo.com
>
> : I admit that there might have been a danger...does that make you happy?
>
> Actually, it does, a bit. That's the first time you've admitted to
> anything at all.
> sure, with no room for doubt, would you use to prevent that possible
> danger from ever coming true?
alright now, lets get something straight, I never admitted that there
-was- a danger, I admitted that there *might* be a danger. I will also
admit that Xena herself *might* be a danger to society, if she decides
to turn back to evil whats to stop her? (and don't give me this: she
won't turn back to evil, because thats just an opinion) I'm allowed to
make up a possible hypothetical situation because you yourself have made
up a possible hypothetical situation in this arguement (in which
Callisto goes on a rampage burning villages, and going on a mass murder
spree for no particular reason.)...So based on hypothetical situations,
maybe everyone on the show should die. If I wanted to prevent harm to
society which steps I use to leave *WITH NO ROOM FOR DOUBT* to prevent
this danger from ever coming through, I would have to kill Xena and
Callisto.
I won't avoid your question though...what steps would I use to prevent
without a doubt anybody being killed by callisto? I would kill Callisto
what steps would I use to prevent without a doubt anybody being killed
by xena? I would kill xena
what steps would I use to prevent without a doubt anybody being killed
by Gabrielle? I would kill Gabrielle
and so on, and so on, and so on...
> Like you say, we don't know if it will or
> not. I hope you can agree that it's better safe than sorry. So how would
> you keep Callisto from even having the opportunity to be that danger?
We can't argue possible outcomes because they are not facts, if we are
not argueing facts our arguement makes no sense. If we argue possible
outcomes...ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, therefore anything can be justified...
> I, personally, like the way it was done. Callisto died and that
> both punishes her for her past crimes and prevents her from committing any
> more.
> But you think she shouldn't have been killed.
I think it was wise for Xena to kill Callisto, but not the way she did
it, in cold blood, and for no reason...
> Okay, you're entitled
> to that opinion, but then how would you keep Callisto from being a danger
> without killing her?
If she was a danger I would have killed her, but there was no proof that
she was going to be a further danger.
> : I'm not avoiding anything, I have nothing to hide.
>
> Then answer the above question without evading the issue that it
> being asked quite directly. That's all I ask.
I'm not evading anything, I don't know if you've noticed or not, but I
FUCKING AGREE with most of your arguements, I just mainly have a problem
with *the way* Xena killed Callisto
> Well, I admit a certain fondness for the term "freakshow", but if
> you hadn't kept the being a circular argument by never answering the
> questions asked to you directly, they might not have even come up, these
> opportunities to insult you.
I'm not sure if your aware of this, but you were doing the same damn
thing I was...anybody who has read this arguement (and I have gotten
quite a few e-mails concenring this arguement) knows that you were doing
the same thing I was, and thats why I call you funny. You flip out to
the point of almost pulling your hair clean out of your head at
something I'm doing, when I am feeling the EXACT same way about you and
what you were/are doing, I never told you because I thought it was
irrelelvent, but in case you didn't know, you were doing what you claim
I was, maybe it's impossible for you to see, understand, or admit tha,
but it was happening
> :> Of course you aren't afraid to dodge them, you've been doing that
> :> since the Hoover administration. It's ANSWERING them that you are afraid
> :> of.
>
> : Lets get something straight here: there is nothing you can do that can
> : make me scared in any way whatsoever. I actually think this duscussion
> : is funny, I think your funny (both in a good way and a bad way).
>
> Well, I'm starting to prefer the bad way.
> Seriously, if you aren't afraid (and the only thing I can think
> that you COULD be afraid of in this case is losing this argument; I'm not
> about to figure out where you are and stalk your ass) then answer those
> questions. And answer them _as_asked_ rather than changing the subject.
-Lazarus-
ant...@y00hoo.com
>
> Rubicant <yod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :> My point exactly. LAz is running scared!
>
> : Oh yeah, I'm shivering in my boots...
>
> Really? Are they combat boots? Did you get them from you mother?
> (Sorry, I couldn't resist, you're just such an easy target)
Yo shut the fuck up you little bitch ass computer nerd, I can fucking
tear your head off with one punch. If you were a real man you would
know you need to show some respect.
> :> Even worse, he thinks those opinions are FACTS. Talk about being
> :> full of yourself.
>
> : Maybe these opinions that I consirder facts actually are facts, but you
> : just aren't smart enough to understand them. Name 1 opinion that I use
> : that I calim is a fact, use the best case scenario.
>
> Gosh, I'd like to, but I'm having myself fed through a paper
> shredder tonight. Tell you what: instead, why don't you go back and read
> the 300 or so posts in which we specify the opinions you state as fact as
> they come up...
Why don't you put yourself through that paper shredder and get the fuck
off the internet, you have no respect, you should try growing up, try
maturing a little...
> :> And I didn't feel the need to have my actions dictated by him,
> :> either.
>
> : It was a suggestion, I thought you could just let it go, BUT IT APPEARS
> : AS THOUGH NOBODY CAN KICK SENSE INTO THAT THICK HELMET YOU CALL A
> : BRAIN
>
> Of course not. Sense is supposed to be inserted through the nose
> gently with tweezers and a Q-tip. Didn't your mother teach you ANYTHING?
Look, just dissapear...you'll make the world a better place.
> : ...and thats why I can't argue with you, you are just too damn
> : irrational, and you are a cheater, cheaters use things like spelling
> : errors,
>
> That was supposed to be helpful to you, actually. You come off
> like a ten-year-old net geek when you spell excessively poorly and use
> grammar that would make Yoda blush. Maybe you'll be taken more seriously
> if you don't seem pre-pubescent.
You've tried for so long to prove to me how mentaly endowed you are, and
you've used things like my spelling, which is far from pre-pubescent,
far from perfect, and far from relevent to back up your arguement.
You've also tried to prove to me how GREAT your superior god-like
intelligence is by reciting ww2 paragraphs of completely useless
irrelevent information, and then you write to me with this yearning to
be "better" and to be "right" and you insult me, and you you disagree
with everything I or anyone else who dares stand up for thier arguements
has to say, even if it's off topic, or has nothing to do with the
arguement. This only means one thing to me, you want to convince
yourself that you are superior to others...probably because you are
really inferior.
> : and whatnot to try and put down the oppossing arguer...cheaters
> : argue for the sake of being "right", cheaters argue because they are
> : insecure, and need reassurance. I'm guessing you want the reassurance
> : of whoever is reading this...
>
> Lousy guess. I don't need to be told when I'm right... But the
> challenge of making you see that you were wrong (amazingly, flashily, hard
> to miss wrong) was hard to pass up.
why do you think it was hard to pass up? Because your mind enjoys it.
Why does your mind enjoy it? Because it's getting something out of it.
What are you getting out of it? A sense of superiority with every key
you hit, the only thing I have to say to people like you is: grow up.
> : You are intelligent, but no more
> : intelligent then me,
>
> I'll stack my ability to sort and analyze data, ponder
> philosophies of life, and general working knowlege of history, law, and
> physics against your third grade intellect any day.
I've already beaten you, as a matter of fact, you have beaten
yourself. With a statement like that, it shows how much you need to
hear these things that you would LOVE to get into another arguement with
somebody so you can argue until the end of time. I don't need that kind
of reassurance, I'm only writing this because I'm bored...and I was
willing to end it days ago, but you and your little friend refused to
let it go, and have been manipulating me back into this arguement over
and over again, the only reason I am letting you manipulate me is
because I have an hour to kill after work doing nothing..
It's clear to me, though *comicly* unclear to you that you need such
reassurance.
I'm sure you'd love to hear:
"WOW! TARKD!!! YOUR AMAZING AT SORTING AND ANALYZING DATA!!!! YOUR
SUCH A GREAT PHILOSOHPER, AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY IS ASTOUNDING!
YOU WOULD MAKE A GREAT LAWYER, AND A GREAT SCIENTIST! IT'S TOO BAD I'M
NOT AS GOOD AS YOU...can I be you for a day?"
I'm sure you subconciously feed yourself this heaping spoonfull of lies
every 5 minutes, your like a fly trying to make honey...
> : and you have the thickest skull I have encountered
> : online beating even myself...
>
> Really? Yet I'm not the one who can only come up with one response
> to every hard question asked of me: "Callisto hasn't killed anyone yet!"
> Which is, of course, totally false, but even within the context of how you
> meant it that statement was hopelessly dense...
Within the context of the statement it made perfect sense. You said
Xena killed Callisto because she might be a danger in the future. I
said you don't know Callisto might be a dnager in the future because she
hasn't killed anyone yet. I don't see whats so dense about that, I also
find your need to distort my words in a seperate context to fit your
arguement VERY SNEAKY, and a sign of just how pathetic and weak you are,
and how lame your arguement is.
> : Argueing with somebody who solely wants to
> : be "right" is pointless, because they don't even care about the
> : arguement, all they want to is reassurance, thus they will argue
> : forever, until they prove to themselves that they are superior even if
> : they aren't.
>
> Or maybe they don't care to CONTINUE to argue, they simply want to
> reach a conclusion...but they care too much to simply allow an incorrect
> conclusion to be seen as the right one.
Or maybe they would like to fool themselves into thinking thats why they
are doing it, to cover up the fact that really in the back of thier mind
they know and I know exactly why they are doing it, they are doing it
because they are weak, and pathetic, and are looking for a way to snuff
that out by means of argueing and doing whatever it takes to conjer up
the illusion that they are "right" and "superior", it's actually sad,
like watching an animal struggle for survival by pulling other down with
it, too bad for you I'm too solidly planted on the ground for you to do
that to me, otherwise I would be just as pathetic as you. It's
interesting to see the many ways your mind avoids these realities...
-lazarus-
Gatsby -- aka Dave H.
new
> reason to live at the end was not sincere. Most everyone I've read
thought
> it rang false. And yet Xena didn't? Xena, the person you espouse to be
the
> best person at judging Callisto, and how susceptible she might be to
change.
> That's what your argument presumes unless you try to argue that Xena saw
> that Callisto was just trying to goad her into stabbing her with the
dagger,
> but if you argue that, Xena looks even worse because then she would be
> killing a person who wanted to die simply because she couldn't deal with
the
> pain in her life and had nothing of meaning to motivate her to live. I'd
> like to see you argue that a person like that is still such a great threat
> to society that it would have been unconscionable for Xena to even take
the
> risk of talking with her. If she can't reach Callisto with talking, and
> Callisto will only accept death, *then* Xena could have gone ahead and
> stabbed her. At the very least she could say she *tried* to help Callisto
> at least once out of all the opportunities she had. You probably think
that
> Callisto putting a hand to Xena's cheek after she stabbed her was
something
> like further evidence that she was a wingnut or something of the like that
> you've made support your existing opinions in some way, but I don't and I
> think I've just about said all I can without starting to go in circles and
> repeat the same objections to your objections. Take it for whatever its
> worth.
This is exactly right. Since Callisto wanted to die, and Xena was the one
who could kill her, Xena could have easily used that as a way to try to talk
to her; she owed her that much. The fact that Callisto wanted to die, also
proves that she was not a harm to society -- at that point, she was
suicidal, not homicidal. If you want proof that she would kill anyone, look
at that scene where she was using her powers to fight Hope's soldiers. She
just gave them a tap on the ass, almost humourous, when she could have
easily solved the problem by obliterating every one of them; she could have
turned the city into an inferno if she wanted to. The point is that
Callisto's potential danger to anyone was FAR greater than her actual
danger. You are only judged by actuality.
ant...@y00hoo.com
>
> : First of all, what does it matter what anybody else thinks who is
> : reading this...are you writing all this just to try to get people to
> : think something about you?
>
> Hey, I figure that the truth needs to be told.
I think you want to tell your (lol) "truth" to yourself, I think you
want to tell yourself how intelligent, and how wonderfull you are, and
how much of a great scientist you are, and wonderfull at law, and
philosophy, and great at analyzing data. The TRUTH is that your truth
is really just you trying to prove something to yourself...
> And the truth of
> the matter is that you tried to turn tail and run as soon as the questions
> got tough.
I tried to leave this arguement because it appears to be going nowhere,
and I didn't have enough time to spare. I work alot, and I have barely
any time for myself let alone somebody who has proven himself worth zero
respect.
> : I'm not going to let you drag me back into the arguement, if you want to
> : ask me anymore questions or argue this further ask me it in a rational,
> : non-insulting manner. I will however answer this final question of
> : yours: how can one neutralize Callisto without killing her? The honest
> : answer: I don't know
>
> Well, it's about time! That was just the answer I was waiting for.
GREAT! NOW YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO PROVE TO YOURSELF HOW INTELLIGENT YOU
ARE!
> Now, if you don't know how to neutralize Callisto without killing
> her, then what makes you think that killing her wasn't the best course of
> action?
killing is fine.
> I mean, if Callisto _does_ decide to kill again, she'll likely
> kill more than just one person, and in fact, even before her death
> Callisto killed many many people, including several who were close to the
> protagonists of this show.
THESE ARE NOT FACTS!!!! WHERE ARE THE FACTS YOU AND BDANGELICO CLAIM
YOU USE IN YOUR ARGUEMENTS? There are no facts, your whole arguement
relys on the ghuess that Callisto migth kill someone, you have no facts,
your arguement proves itself wrong.
> So how can you justify allowing a known killer
> who has given no signs of having reformed to just go away, not knowing if
> she will kill again?
This is a play on words. I can get through it. What you failed to
express was the idea of killing the known killer in cold blood for no
reason.
> How can you justify allowing such a risk to innocent
> lives go free, if you don't know how to stop her? Just because she hasn't
> killed again doesn't mean she won't and it doesn't mean that she will.
Lets think here...if we "don't know she won't and we don't know that she
will" as you put it, then logic dictates we don't know what she's going
to do at all...Well, lets think some more, now that we don't know what
she is going to do at all, how are we going to execute her for something
we don't know anything about?
> But
> how can her one life be worth more than the lives she will end if she does
> kill again?
Well, nobody knows if anybodys lives will be taken, thats a big "if".
"what if" is a great scenerio. what if elvis isn't dead? what if
martians land on the planet, and take control of the president, and turn
us all into slaves...WE CANT VERY WELL HAVE THAT HAPPENING NOW CAN WE?
How can we be ABSOLOUTELY CERTAIN Martians won't take control of the
president?...Well, we are going to have to get him out of office, and
end presidency...THATS THE ONLY LOGICAL THING TO DO going by your logic.
> She's already killed before, we know that she has taken more
> lives than her single one is worth, why shouldn't she die both for her
> crimes and to keep her from adding more crimes onto that record?
Let me ask you...why did hercules give Xena a second chance, she didn't
show any means to change, she was even more powerfull then Callisto, and
totally irrational and ruthless too. why do you think Hercules gave
her a second chance?
> :> He's evaded answering that question over and over, and today I
> :> told him that if he didn't answer it directly, we had nothing to talk
> :> about.
>
> : I'm not evading anything, I have nothing to hide, bring it on, bring it
> : all on, but DON'T YOU DARE insult me, and expect me to continue argueing
> : with you.
>
> Fine. But if you truly have nothing to hide, then stop hiding
> behind the idea that Callisto shouldn't be killed for a crime "she didn't
> committ".
HIDING? Thats the basis of my entire arguement...
> I know you believe this, but there are some questions that need
> answering and you cannot answer them if this is the only thing you will
> say. I mean, find, you don't think that Callisto should be killed just in
> case she might kill again, but why should she be allowed to kill for even
> less of a reason? Are the lives she has ended and could still end later
> really worth just her one life? You cannot answer this question if you
> just repeat that reason. It doesn't even answer the question, really, it
> merely avoids it.
I believe that if one HAD TO measure life, more life is worth more then
less in most cases, but your question is bland and useless. Xena was
not even confronted with that situation.
> If Xena hadn't killed Callisto, and Callisto then went out and
> killed again, I want some good, justified reason why those people dying
> was worth it.
They died because Callisto is crazy...Can you give a good reason why
Callisto familly died? What about a good reason why solan died? There
doesn't have to be a good reason, It sure wouldn't be Xenas fault. If
Xena killed Callisto in cold blood to save the lives of those people,
Callisto would have died because Xena was crazy, and Callistos death
would hang on Xenas head, as the lives of the *would be dead* villagers
would hang on Callistos head.
> I want to know why Callisto's life is worth the cost of
> theirs. I even want justification for the lives she killed in the past,
> but that may be too big a step for right now, so just answer the first
> part.
there is no justification for what Callisto has done, or might do...
> Because if you can do it, you might still prove your point to me.
Even if I could you wouldn't allow yourself to hear it.
> But right now, I think that you have placed more value on Callisto's life
> (and existence that I consider evil and one that should be wiped out)
then you Callisto have something in Common, she thinks some people are
evil and deserve to be "wiped out" and you believe some people are evil
and deserve to be "wiped out"
> to
> be worth more than that of those she has killed and even those she might
> kill, and I'd like to know the reasoning behind that. It seems flawed and
> it seems biased, and it seems like you have a crush on Hudson. So,
> explain, if you can.
Oh yeah, that explains it all...I don't even like Hudson, I like
Gabrielle.
> :> Obviously this is a lame excuse to get out of answering a question
> :> that he knows would defeat his poorly thought out arguments that generally
> :> had little to do with the subject at hand.
>
> : I already answered the question, so, there you have it...
>
> And how long did it take to reach the point where you _would_
> answer it?
I don't see what you are driving at, I have nothing to hide, and nothing
to prove.
> :> That's fine by me. I'm sick of taking the time out of my day to
> :> discuss this crap anyway.
>
> : so why in gods name are you baiting me back into this arguement?
>
> Well, I wasn't, I was simply getting in a parting shot. But since
> you seem willing to finally answer a question or two without avoiding
> it...
Well, there you have it, you have proven nothing, except that you are so
ironheaded that you can't let a grudge go...you can't let me walk away
without getting the last word, like a little kid...
-Lazarus-
Lazarus
>
> This is exactly right. Since Callisto wanted to die, and Xena was the one
> who could kill her, Xena could have easily used that as a way to try to talk
> to her; she owed her that much. The fact that Callisto wanted to die, also
> proves that she was not a harm to society -- at that point, she was
> suicidal, not homicidal. If you want proof that she would kill anyone, look
> at that scene where she was using her powers to fight Hope's soldiers. She
> just gave them a tap on the ass, almost humourous, when she could have
> easily solved the problem by obliterating every one of them; she could have
> turned the city into an inferno if she wanted to. The point is that
> Callisto's potential danger to anyone was FAR greater than her actual
> danger. You are only judged by actuality.
PREACH ON MY BROTHER!
-lazarus-
Jason C. Leach
> : Perhaps you didn't read my last reply to you, so I'm going to deal with this
> : one last time. I have a very simple answer to your question of what alternate
> : ways there were of dealing with Callisto that were certain to work. Here it
> : is: There are *no* certain ways to keep Callisto from being a danger. Neither
> : killing her nor whatever else one might try. I'll bet when Xena killed her or
> : let her die before, she was pretty certain that those were permanent solutions.
> : They weren't. That's the difference between this world and the Xenaverse. No
> : one's ever come back from the dead in this world. Callisto has come back
> : *several* times. The Hind's blood dagger can kill a god, and there wasn't
> : anything to indicate that a god so killed could come back to life, but if you
> : look at the odds of how many times Callisto has managed to cheat death, there's
> : a 100% failure rate to that approach.
>
> It only has to work _once_. Now if Ares could just be kept from
> interfering...
>
Changing Callisto only has to work once, too. Granted, there's always a risk
Callisto could regress. (Xena herself has tried to kill Gabrielle twice.) There's
also the risk that killing Callisto wouldn't work, in which case Xena would risk
losing her chance to try to change Callisto. And there's the risk that, once killed,
Callisto could come back to life at a later time.
> : Now I really don't care much about this
> : argument, but it does show that by killing Callisto, Xena was still taking a
> : chance.
>
> But it is a much better chance than leaving Callisto alive. Alive,
> Callisto could do murderous things to people, dead she's at least been
> sent to the showers for unnecessary roughness. She may come back later,
> but for now she's nicely contained.
>
Callisto would contain herself if Xena convinced her to change. There would not be
further need to stop her. You seem to think that trying to change Callisto would be
*much* riskier than trying to kill her, but I do not see any legitimate reasons for
this. By trying to kill Callisto, Xena risks herself *and others* because Callisto
will defend herself by whatever means necessary. If Xena fails to kill Callisto,
Callisto likely goes on a killing spree (Xena must think this in order to justify
killing her). But if Xena tries to change her instead, she is still risking the
lives of others, but its likely she can continue trying to change Callisto. Callisto
has always shown an unwillingness to kill Xena. She tried once in "Maternal
Instincts" when Xena forced her to defend herself, but that's it. Callisto has
always been open to dialogue with Xena. But if Xena tries to kill Callisto, she will
defend herself and Xena will likely be killed and lose her chance at changing
Callisto. Even if she fails, she still decreases her chances at getting Callisto to
listen. Anyway, like Dave H. said, do you really think the other gods would allow
Callisto to just do whatever she wanted? Xena had an alternate possible solution of
going to them for help. This is really all just so much speculation. I find it hard
to believe that anyone is so convinced that trying to kill Callisto was the safest
solution.
> : Its only a question of weighing relative chances to determine what is
> : most likely to succeed and then weighing the additional consideration of what
> : is morally right, if you think that what is morally right should be a
> : consideration. I went into excruciating detail of every reason why I thought
> : other approaches had significant odds of success in my last reply to you that
> : it looks like you didn't read.
>
> I've read every post in this thread. So far there has been NO
> compelling evidence to show that anything but death would stop Callisto.
> Maybe you thought you gave a really good example somewhere, but I've seen
> nothing that was certain to work as well as killing her.
>
You seem to admit in this post that it is a significant risk to *everyone* to try to
kill Callisto and that there are no solutions sure to work. I couldn't believe you
didn't see that, but since you do and its just your opinion that its better than the
alternative risk of trying to change her, I'll move on to the other points of just
*how* significant the relative risks were, though mostly the logic of this. I cited
all my evidence for my opinions in that last post.
> : You have assumed throughout, from what I've seen, that executing Callisto was
> : certain to work.
>
> This is incorrect. I've been saying that her successful execution
> was certain to bring about a greater measure of safety for the world at
> large.
Fine, but you cannot be *certain* of this point either. Its still only a question of
relative risks. Callisto would *protect* others if it served her own interests.
Just as there is a possibilty that Callisto could go on to do harm, there's a
possibility she could go on to do good (a significant possibility, if Xena tries to
help her).
> I have also said that trying to fight Callisto in that cave
> presented better odds than letting her get into open ground. I've never
> addressed the issue of whether it _would_ be successful to get a kill on
> her or not, so you cannot say that I've had any opinion on it at all.
>
> : So any way you look at it, that I see, Xena was taking a considerable gamble,
> : and when you add in the fact that Xena looked to be in a furious rage when she
> : killed Callisto, yelling angrily, which telegraphed her blow, Xena killing
> : Callisto out of the same anger that used to motivate Callisto looks like a
> : plausible scenario to me. And that's the kind of thing people usually label as
> : "murder."
>
> Killing is only murder when it isn't justified or accidental. When
> it's accidental, it's manslaughter.
Murder is whatever people say it is. Definitions are hindering this argument from
producing anything meaningful. When people assume something like "justice" means
something very specific, when, in fact, it is ambigous and depends on the context of
usage because there are multiple definitions, arguments will rage on forever as
whenever someone says one thing, another person will think they're saying something
else. Look "murder" or "justice" up in the dictionary, and you will find many
varying definitions, depending on context.
> People seem to assume that, because Xena was angry at the time,
> that her only motivation to kill Callisto was because of that silly little
> comment Callisto made about Gabby dying. But Callisto had so much more to
> answer for that this simply cannot be certain.
>
Agreed, but that does not preclude that Xena's judgment was affected by anger. It
looked to me like all Xena really cared about was that no one would condemn her for
killing Callisto, so she decided to let her anger loose on Callisto, not caring about
any risks, consequences, or morality. You haven't accounted for the fact that
earlier in the episode, Callisto was standing there asking Xena to kill her and Xena
told her "May you live forever." She sure wasn't concerned about the greater good
then. She refused to stop a mass murderer when the mass murderer was standing there
asking her to stick the dagger in. Callisto didn't threaten to do anything to force
Xena to kill her. She so easily could have. The old Callisto would have. Xena
would have looked like even more of an ass than she did if Callisto had done that.
Now, its a separate argument whether killing Callisto in theory was justified or
not. Say, if it was someone else who killed her. If all someone knew about Callisto
was her atrocities and they suddenly had an opportunity to kill her, that would seem
somewhat more justified. But Xena had had time to evaluate Callisto's character and
ignored all the signs I described earlier that Callisto had the potential to change.
Either Xena was incredibly dense or blinded by anger, or she just chose to ignore
those signs and not care.
> : But since there is no way to know for sure what Xena's motives were
> : and there's little you can do to weigh the potential risks of the different
> : alternatives against each other very well,
>
> Part of the problem with your argument here is that you seem to
> define the potential risks of varions Callisto-stopping methods in terms
> of danger to the person trying those methods. I define them as risks to
> _anyone_ Callisto might kill, innocent or combatant. In terms of sheer
> number of people that could be saved in the shortest amount of time,
> killing Callisto was the best course of action.
>
No, I *have* considered the risks to *everyone*. If Xena tries to kill Callisto and
fails, that seriously endangers any future chances at changing her. If Xena
*doesn't* try to kill her, Callisto also *might* kill again. I've already done my
analysis of the signs I see that decrease this risk.
As for the factor of time, trying to change Callisto *would* take longer than killing
her. That makes it easier for *Xena*, but that's it. While its true that the longer
Callisto lives, the greater the chance she might hurt someone, I have seen no
rational way of evaluating just how great of a risk the alternative of trying to
change her is to begin with, so the point is moot.
> If any of the methods tried fail, the difference in the number of
> future deaths is both undeterminable and probably negligible. So the only
> way to measure the effectiveness of the various methods is the time it
> will take to implement them and how well it would neutralize Callisto when
> it worked.
Probably so, and I've said the time is irrelevant because its based on knowing the
risk of killing Callisto vs. the risk of changing her. Both solutions might or might
not neutralize her and I've already done my analysis of the risks of each with the
conclusion that no solid conclusions can be drawn on either side. It gets down to
what Xena is willing to do. It will take more effort to kill Callisto than to try to
change her, but I think she should try.
ta...@ifyouspammeiwillhaveyoukilled.cris.com
:> It only has to work _once_. Now if Ares could just be kept from
:> interfering...
:>
: Changing Callisto only has to work once, too. Granted, there's always a risk
: Callisto could regress. (Xena herself has tried to kill Gabrielle twice.) There's
: also the risk that killing Callisto wouldn't work, in which case Xena would risk
: losing her chance to try to change Callisto. And there's the risk that, once killed,
: Callisto could come back to life at a later time.
Regression vs coming back from the dead...I think in terms of
which of those is more likely to happen, I'd bet on regression. The idea
is to be SURE, or as sure as possible, that Callisto is eliminated as a
danger.
:> But it is a much better chance than leaving Callisto alive. Alive,
:> Callisto could do murderous things to people, dead she's at least been
:> sent to the showers for unnecessary roughness. She may come back later,
:> but for now she's nicely contained.
: Callisto would contain herself if Xena convinced her to change. There would not be
: further need to stop her. You seem to think that trying to change Callisto would be
: *much* riskier than trying to kill her, but I do not see any legitimate reasons for
: this.
Well, look at it this way, then, since I do have legitimate
reasons:
Callisto will not reform overnight. It will take time to convince
her that changing is in her best interests, it will take time to get her
to stick to it, and it will take time for old habits to break. And during
all of that time, Callisto still remains a danger.
Further, we don't know if Callisto is willing or able to reform!
What if they try to get her to change and she tells them to get fucked?
What are they going to do, use the Hind's Blood Dagger on her when she's
actually expecting it?
So, to sum up, with trying to reform Callisto we have the danger
of her not being receptive, we have the danger of it not working, we have
the danger of backsliding, we have the danger of not being able to kill
her if the attempt to reform fails. But with killing her, the only danger
is Xena screwing up and dying to Callisto.
Killing her is quick, it basicly slams the door on any possibility
of backsliding or not being receptive to change.
I hope you see the legitimate reasons now.
:> I've read every post in this thread. So far there has been NO
:> compelling evidence to show that anything but death would stop Callisto.
:> Maybe you thought you gave a really good example somewhere, but I've seen
:> nothing that was certain to work as well as killing her.
: You seem to admit in this post that it is a significant risk to *everyone* to try to
: kill Callisto and that there are no solutions sure to work.
Nope, never said any of that. May have said variants, but never
any of that. I said there are no OTHER solutions that would work
(discussing whether or not killing her would work is fairly academic since
we already know it HAS worked...the only question is whether it's
permanent) and I've said nothing whatsoever about killing Callisto being a
risk.
:> This is incorrect. I've been saying that her successful execution
:> was certain to bring about a greater measure of safety for the world at
:> large.
: Fine, but you cannot be *certain* of this point either. Its still only a question of
: relative risks. Callisto would *protect* others if it served her own interests.
And when has it ever done so?
Besides, Callisto needs to not EVER kill people, not just when she
has selfish reasons not to.
: Just as there is a possibilty that Callisto could go on to do harm, there's a
: possibility she could go on to do good (a significant possibility, if Xena tries to
: help her).
If there's ANY risk that Callisto could go on to do harm, that
risk must be neutralized. Killing is a last resort, of course, but it was
the only one open to anyone.
:> Killing is only murder when it isn't justified or accidental. When
:> it's accidental, it's manslaughter.
: Murder is whatever people say it is. Definitions are hindering this argument from
: producing anything meaningful. When people assume something like "justice" means
: something very specific, when, in fact, it is ambigous and depends on the context of
: usage because there are multiple definitions, arguments will rage on forever as
: whenever someone says one thing, another person will think they're saying something
: else. Look "murder" or "justice" up in the dictionary, and you will find many
: varying definitions, depending on context.
In that case, there's nothing to be talked about, because no one
can say one way or the other whether Xena murdered Callisto.
:> People seem to assume that, because Xena was angry at the time,
:> that her only motivation to kill Callisto was because of that silly little
:> comment Callisto made about Gabby dying. But Callisto had so much more to
:> answer for that this simply cannot be certain.
:>
: Agreed, but that does not preclude that Xena's judgment was affected by anger.
I don't really care, to be honest. It had to be done, I'm glad
that it was. That it was an angry Xena who did it has no bearing on what I
think about Callisto and her deserving to die. The execution could be done
by a cute little girl in a yellow sun dress or by Hank the Angry Drunken
Dwarf, it would still be just as justified, IMHO.
: Now, its a separate argument whether killing Callisto in theory was justified or
: not. Say, if it was someone else who killed her. If all someone knew about Callisto
: was her atrocities and they suddenly had an opportunity to kill her, that would seem
: somewhat more justified. But Xena had had time to evaluate Callisto's character and
: ignored all the signs I described earlier that Callisto had the potential to change.
: Either Xena was incredibly dense or blinded by anger, or she just chose to ignore
: those signs and not care.
Or she could be like me and think that those signs aren't what YOU
think they were...I haven't seen ANY signs, even the ones you've pointed
out, as signs of potential change at all. I still see Callisto only as a
deeply moody, frequently sarcastic, hate-filled killing machine. She might
have been something else once long ago, but I think that part of her is
dead as her family.
:> Part of the problem with your argument here is that you seem to
:> define the potential risks of varions Callisto-stopping methods in terms
:> of danger to the person trying those methods. I define them as risks to
:> _anyone_ Callisto might kill, innocent or combatant. In terms of sheer
:> number of people that could be saved in the shortest amount of time,
:> killing Callisto was the best course of action.
: No, I *have* considered the risks to *everyone*. If Xena tries to kill Callisto and
: fails, that seriously endangers any future chances at changing her.
Not remotely! Xena dying may well bring about change in Callisto.
After all, it's what she claims to want.
: If Xena
: *doesn't* try to kill her, Callisto also *might* kill again. I've already done my
: analysis of the signs I see that decrease this risk.
Not to my satisfaction, you haven't. I'm looking for actual
pro-active PREVENTION here, not merely a lessening of risks.
: As for the factor of time, trying to change Callisto *would* take longer than killing
: her. That makes it easier for *Xena*, but that's it. While its true that the longer
: Callisto lives, the greater the chance she might hurt someone, I have seen no
: rational way of evaluating just how great of a risk the alternative of trying to
: change her is to begin with, so the point is moot.
The point is hardly moot. I've said above that it isn't merely
like checking Callisto into the Betty Ford Clinic. If she doesn't want to
be reformed, she doesn't HAVE to be. She's a god, she can just zorp out
any time she wants. So she has to be willing to sit around and listen,
which she has never been willing to do before. And IF she does sit and
listen, she is still a danger, thoug perhaps a decreasing one, until real
progress is made.
It's simply more than just time spent, it's also time spent on a
forced vigilance over Callisto to make sure she doesn't sneak away. And
that sort of vigilance is impossible if the correct atmosphere for change
is going to be maintained; I doubt Callisto will reform with a HBD at her
throat.
:> If any of the methods tried fail, the difference in the number of
:> future deaths is both undeterminable and probably negligible. So the only
:> way to measure the effectiveness of the various methods is the time it
:> will take to implement them and how well it would neutralize Callisto when
:> it worked.
: Probably so, and I've said the time is irrelevant because its based on knowing the
: risk of killing Callisto vs. the risk of changing her. Both solutions might or might
: not neutralize her and I've already done my analysis of the risks of each with the
: conclusion that no solid conclusions can be drawn on either side. It gets down to
: what Xena is willing to do. It will take more effort to kill Callisto than to try to
: change her, but I think she should try.
Okay, let's put it this way: What is a fact and what is a belief?
A fact is something that can be seen and checked while a belief is a
concept or a prediction or something else intangible.
If I were to tell you that, in six years, it will rain at 3 PM
Pacific Time, in Tukwila, Washington, that would be a belief. It may well
rain then, but you have no way of knowing if it will until that day rolls
around.
But if I were to drop a rock in front of you, and then said I had
done it, that would be a fact. You saw it, it happened, there's no doubt
about it--unless you want to be a philosophy major in which case there
probably either was no rock or it was a fish, which is neither here nor
there.
So, if Xena kills Callisto, it is FACT that she will be dead, and
thus unable to kill again short of Ares or some other meddler resurrecting
her. This can be seen and checked, verified and made sure of.
Nothing else you've described is so sure. Everything else relies
on factors that cannot be checked, can only be known when they occur.
Thus, the risks in killing Callisto, of which there are virtually none
since it's already been done, are far less than anything else anyone could
try.