Duh... MORE NEWBIES OF NOTE.
CiCi Lean2
============
Also of newbies of note for 1998 are
============
Journey to X - "Thank You"
The fabulous "la" and Miss Elsie! -- body of work
Drovar: Body of work (slash)
CiCi
(kicking self and hard...)
Hindy Bradley
Now, name four who aren't debbilmice.
Hindy
CiCi Lean2
I think you missed my previous post (see: Newbies of Note...). As far as I
know, there are few other Debbilmice on that list.
And BTW... why the snippyness?
You were on the Debbilmice list from nearly its conception.
CiCi
(Debbil, Debbil, Toil and *yawn*....)
Hindy Bradley
give us a list of 25 of the best of them?
Btw, thanks for confirming who's a debbilmice.
H.
CiCi Lean2
>give us a list of 25 of the best of them?
>
>Btw, thanks for confirming who's a debbilmice.
>
>H.
As I said, you missed my PREVIOUS post which I listed nearly 20 newbies, most
of whom are NOT DebbilMice as far as I know. (For your reading pleasure, I will
list them below again...)
This post was in addition to that list, and all listed are fine writers.
The DebbilMice is a public list, Hindy. Anyone can join and become one, just
as you yourself did when it began.
And find out all they want to know and confirm for themselves who is who and
what is what etc, and bore themselves to death while they do it. That's none
of my concern.
Now, stop being silly and take a deep breath and relax.
CiCi
========
REPEAT: Newbies of Note
Plausible Deniability -- "The Carrot and The Stick" "The Hit", "It's All In The
Game" etc.
Dasha K -- "Momentary Lapses" (series) "Little Rock" "Saturday Morning" etc.
Analise -- "Mindprints"
Barbara Driscoll -- "Oyster Season" "Illuminations"
Te -- A huge body of work. Go to:
http://obsidian.teter.indiana.edu/ephemeral.phtml
Q of Mush -- "Changing Tide"
Maureen Ocks -- "Scenarios," etc.
Vehemently -- "Sleep", "Scatter"
Marguerite -- "Canceled Check" "My Life As An Onion" etc.
Barbara Barnett -- "Flight"
Jennifer Stoy -- "The Choirgirl" series, "Letters To God," "Inter Office
Politics" etc.
Perelandra -- "Deconstructing Mulder" "Angelus" "Tonight" (series) etc.
Annie Sewell Jennings -- "Artificial Starlight" "Halo" "Spectrum" "Piano
Lessons"
RosesDecay: "Strawberries" "Slush" etc.
Jennifer Arthur -- "Beneath The Surface"
Firephile -- "Running in Place" "BADFIC" (series) etc,
Brighid -- "Suffusion" "Atrocities Done" "To the Bone" etc,
Terma 99 -- "Aftershocks"
Dawn Peres - "Misogyny"
J.C Sun -- "Breathe," "Red Light" etc.
Diana Williams -- "Life From the Slashers"
Martha Little -- "God Rest Ye Merry Paranoids" and "The Joy of Cooking and
Other Paranoid Tales" etc,
JourneyToX
>
>Now, name four who aren't debbilmice.
>
>Hindy
Why don't you join the Debbilmice and find out yourself if you've got your
knickers in such a knot about it?
Or have you?
*~*~*~*~*~*
Journ...@aol.com, BYFP, not BOFQ
MORE Skinner, Save Spender, Can Kersh, Flush Fowley.
"God Bless America! Now get your asses out of here!" 1939!Skinner, Triangle
"Oh yeahhhh!" Mitch Pileggi, Season 3 Gag Reels. :-)
~*~*~*~*~
JourneyToX
You think that's confirmation?
Bwwwahahahaahahaahahaaha!
Btw, thanks for living up to your rep, which has preceded you.
bat_...@my-dejanews.com
> Interesting choices, CiCi.
> Now, name four who aren't debbilmice.
I'm confused. Color me silly, but I can't tell if the problem here is with
debbilmice in general or just newbies of note who are also debbilmice.
I mean if it's debbilmice in general who are suspect, let's put our cards on
the table right now. I'm a debbilmouse, so, at various times have been Sheryl
Martin and Marlene.
They gonna be disqualified along with me?
Oh. Right. *I* never posted my fiction here, so I'm disqualified anyway.
Sorry.
bd
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
iwo...@earthlink.net
>I mean if it's debbilmice in general who are suspect, let's put our cards on
>the table right now. I'm a debbilmouse, so, at various times have been Sheryl
>Martin and Marlene.
I subscribed to the debbilmouse list a few days ago to read the archives,
which I found to be full of gleeful hate and petty sniping, as I expected.
Friends of mine were, and still are, trashed by juvenile accusations like "she was
nasty/horrid to me when I wrote her; you should see the post." And then, of
course, the posts are never produced. They can't be because they only exist in
that person's mind. I know, because I *have* seen the posts.
I joined their public list to monitor a known "hate group." I noticed today that
I had been barred from their archives. <g><snort> I'll be surprised if I'm not
completed uns*bbed from the group because of this post.
"No evil dooms us hopelessly except the evil we love,
and desire to continue in, and make no effort to escape from."
-- George Eliot
Marlene
iwo...@earthlink.net
(not Isabel Wonders or iwon...@badkarma.whatever)
Zemerick Vilo
>just like the rest of us on the list, I think you're deliberately lying
>through your teeth.
Isn't that a little harsh? I joined too and now the list has disappeared.
There was one mention of moving, but no instructions. So is it a private list
now, or maybe some errors occurred?
ZV
Dreamshpr
newbie....who really wonders what all this sniping is about....
bliss
to post Lisby's mail here? Is that what LIsby wants? If you're challenging me
to put them up, I certainly will.
bliss
iwo...@earthlink.net wrote:
"I am not an angry girl/but it seems like I've got
everyone fooled/everytime I say something they find
hard to hear/they chalk it up to my anger/and never
to their own fear- Ani DiFranco
"'snuff ed"
"but how often is too often?"
bliss
ago was just chock full of petty sniping and hatefulness, Marlene. No wonder
you fled. Aside from which, the list was moved to onelist, and I suspect you're
still on it. Since you undoubtedly received a message announcing this move,
just like the rest of us on the list, I think you're deliberately lying through
your teeth.
Yesterday's discussions involved zucchini bread, spreader bars and other gravely
spiteful topics. The day before was a comic story inspired by Sunday's ep which
was hysterically funny.
There was a lot of funny, funny, funny stuff on the list the last few days, and
gee, somehow you missed that, Marlene? I wonder how?
Woodinat
everyone involved has a long bitter history here, but there is no purpose in
posting it here. Or maybe yunz could just agree to dislike each other in
peace.
Woodinat
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel: What do you want for Christmas, Crow?
Crow: I wanna decide who lives and who dies
Joel: Oh, I don't know...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
CiCi Lean2
>everyone involved has a long bitter history here, but there is no purpose in
>posting it here. Or maybe yunz could just agree to dislike each other in
>peace.
I'm in complete agreement.
Marlene, you are a member of the list. Why not post your problems there?
We'll be glad to listen.
CiCi
Binah
of it.
--
Binah
Texas Gal Extraordinaire
===========================================================
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Sure, Brain. I think so, but where are we going to
find chaps our size?"
CiCi Lean2 wrote in message
<19990108085024...@ng-cd1.aol.com>...
:I'm in complete agreement.
Laura Burchard
>And BTW... why the snippyness?
>You were on the Debbilmice list from nearly its conception.
I suspect she joined so that at least when people decided to write nasty
things, they wouldn't be able to hide behind anonymity. There's a trifle
bit of difference between that and writing anonymous and vicious parodies
and screeds. It's certainly sent my opinion of you plunging.
It's a fascinating game of blame the victim; if they join the list you
can claim them as willing participants in the sadism; if they don't, you
can have even freer reign to slime them without consequences.
Did you titter with your friends in high school waiting for the latest
victim to open her notebook and discover the crude cartoon of her fucking
the janitor? Or are you just acting out psychic revenge for having been
that victim? Either way, junior high is long past. You are a grownup now;
I don't understand why you don't act like one.
Laura
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
CiCi Lean2
re: DebbilMice
>It's certainly sent my opinion of you plunging.
I thank you. You cannot imagine how this relieves me.
Anyway, I know, I know... you ladies who lunch are wondering where the public
outrage is in regards to an off-ng mailing list and are most confused why it's
not manifesting itself into a mob scene that runs all and any DM's off of the
newsgroup and out of the fandom and into the flaming pits of shunned hell.
Unfortunately for you, there are two very good reasons for this...
One is that the people of atxc are much smarter than you give them credit for.
Few folks here are going to make any decisions or form knee-jerk negative
opinons about _anything_ without carefully examing both sides of the question
and making their own decisions.
Thus, people who've cared enough to join and examine the list, and have slogged
their way through 12 Tom Leher song lyrics and 25 recipes for lemon pound cake
baked on spreader bars are either unimpressed, relieved or vaguely disappointed
that they -haven't- found the home of the 12 Elders of Fanfic Zion and many, if
not all, are wondering exactly what the heck you are talking about.
Two... many of the folks who have examined the list, find it to be the most
honest fun they've had in their time in the fandom and have decided to stay on
(Seems like membership has been doubling with every negative post. Figure that
one out.)
See, there they are free to vent frustrations without getting beaten with the
TOS/ISP sticks of atxc's self-proclaimed "police force," are given a kindly
ear, and receive a nice basket of smutcakes every Monday morning from some
talented authors, all of whom post under their *real* names.
In fact, the only "anonymous folks" on the list are the "hate monitors" and
snitching lurkers who just can't stand the fact that something exists that is
beyond their sphere of influence.
So, all I can say is, enough. It's obvious to me at least, that the denizens
of atxc are smart enough to either ignore the list or join it, and wanting a
group of intelligent folks to hate something because you do, is just never
going to happen.
So, please. Let's take this topic off of the newsgroup forever. It doesn't
belong here, and the good folks of atxc are not only getting bored with all
this silly talk about stuff that holds no interest for them... they are getting
annoyed.
The list is open for membership and anyone who wants to can come and see for
themselves what evil does, or does not, lie in the heart of a DebbilMouse.
CiCi Lean
l...@radix.net
who will be immune to my evil wiles, spend the middle as the evil demons who
drove the gentle and innocent debbilmice away, and then return as the
brilliant intelligent folk who will ignore me. I suggest consistency in your
rhetorical construction for a more effective argument.
I'm also not quite sure what the great clouds of supporters you conjure in
the middle are supposed to do; whether it's an attempt to suggest correctness
by worth of numbers, or to try and make me feel as if I was the kid being
left out by the cool ones.
Either way... I decline to let crowds make my moral judgements for me.
Certainly, trying to appropriate the moral raiment of others seems to be a
habit of yours; thus your attempt to claim your own victims as perpetrators.
Or perhaps it's to spread the burden of guilt farther. That was my guess when
I received a DM list invite out of the blue some months ago; I was briefly
tempted to join and see just who, indeed, was responsible, but I suspected
that the purpose of it was to then reveal who had joined; I am now proved
correct. If you want to prove how innocent the list is, I suggest making the
archives world readable instead.
I did notice that the MST directory has been deleted, if not the links; I'm
not sure whether you have come to understand how wrong they were, or simply
come to understand how bad they made you look. But while I have a sentimental
preference for right action by internal compulsion rather than by external
compunction, the result is the same.
But you retain your fondness for nasty little anonymous blind items, which
were, rather than DM, the thing that first made my esteem for you fade away.
Casting aspersions on other authors' mental stability and morality without
the courage to stand behind it. It's not clever or cool; it's weak. And the
worst sort of weakness: that which feeds upon making others as small as
itself.
It's very sad. It's very harmful to a community you at least once claimed to
be of. And you are, apparently, deeply proud of it.
Laura
Laura Burchard <l...@radix.net>
http://www.radix.net/~lhb * ICQ: 6854921 * IRC: dctrav
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
bl...@southwind.net
l...@radix.net wrote:
> I'm also not quite sure what the great clouds of supporters you conjure in
> the middle are supposed to do; whether it's an attempt to suggest correctness
> by worth of numbers, or to try and make me feel as if I was the kid being
> left out by the cool ones.
I can't say much about the great clouds of supporters one way or the other.
There are almost ninety people on the list, which I know having recently
taken over as list admin on onelist. I don't even know that the debbilmice
should or are considered the cool kids excluding anyone. It's an open list,
you have but to join on a public, unmoderated list. And even when people
disagree with you, so far as I can tell, things don't turn into a flame war.
Surprise, surprise.
>
> Either way... I decline to let crowds make my moral judgements for me.
>
Good for you, I applaud that. Neither will I allow crowds to make moral
judgements for me. So we each have our own standards of behavior.
> Certainly, trying to appropriate the moral raiment of others seems to be a
> habit of yours; thus your attempt to claim your own victims as perpetrators.
> Or perhaps it's to spread the burden of guilt farther. That was my guess when
> I received a DM list invite out of the blue some months ago; I was briefly
> tempted to join and see just who, indeed, was responsible, but I suspected
> that the purpose of it was to then reveal who had joined; I am now proved
> correct. If you want to prove how innocent the list is, I suggest making the
> archives world readable instead.
I have no idea what of this all means, but I'm guessing it's aimed personally
at Cici. In fact, nothing has been proven correct or incorrect. As to
making the archives world readable, I've got no problem with it. The
debbilmice list would have to vote, but I don't see that as a problem.
>
> I did notice that the MST directory has been deleted, if not the links; I'm
> not sure whether you have come to understand how wrong they were, or simply
> come to understand how bad they made you look. But while I have a sentimental
> preference for right action by internal compulsion rather than by external
> compunction, the result is the same.
>
Do you? I haven't observed that you have that sentimental preference for
right action, Laura. I've seen you name names with wild abandon to argue
your own point, while still claiming that your arguments are strictly
logical. I don't see it that way. You're talking about people being hurt,
and yet you've hurt many people--and gloated over it to witnesses as a sign
of your influence in the Philes community. But that, of course, is merely
intellectual debate and therefore harmless?
Or are you perhaps merely angry because the Debbilmice Review Journal called
you pretentious? Personal motives are so slippery, aren't they? You can be
blamed for a number of things whether you are guilty or not, and the fact
that mud is flung in this forum seems to be the verdict.
Only it isn't. Despite all my reported evility, including the shooting of
John Lennon, I still have a good many treasured friends in the community,
people I like and respect and trust and enjoy greatly. And continue to make
new friends, astonishingly enough, with great delight.
> But you retain your fondness for nasty little anonymous blind items, which
> were, rather than DM, the thing that first made my esteem for you fade away.
> Casting aspersions on other authors' mental stability and morality without
> the courage to stand behind it. It's not clever or cool; it's weak. And the
> worst sort of weakness: that which feeds upon making others as small as
> itself.
Ah. Now it comes. It's the Acid Desk that bothers you? The blind items?
Speaking of making others as small as yourself, Ms. Burchard, let's talk.
Privately or publicly, it matters not to me.
>
> It's very sad. It's very harmful to a community you at least once claimed to
> be of. And you are, apparently, deeply proud of it.
>
> Laura
You see, this is where I differ. This is not a community. It is a loosely
affiliated group of people with usually one thing in common. The show. And
even those viewpoints differ. Why is it that you single out Cici when you
and others have been just as guilty of divisive behavior? I see that free
speech and independent opinion are only allowed to certain self-appointed
guardians of public/private behavior--or am I misunderstanding your
expression of moral outrage?
Public cruelty to others is condoned on the newsgroup, but is pilloried when
it doesn't happen to meet with your approval? Private venom is perfectly
accepted, but when like minds share their opinions and snarks, they are
demonized? Your hypocrisy and sanctimony does not surprise me in the least.
You, clearly, view yourself as one of the superior. Be my guest, be
superior.
I will say this.....since subbing to this list after the turn of the year, I
have had more fun and laughter and general zaniness than I ever had on any
other list during the three years since I discovered that XF fanfic existed.
I've made good friends, I think, who delight me. I like to think I've been a
good friend to them.
So much for all the evil debbilmice hath wrought.
BethLynn
"What a bunch of pills. Hand me the duct tape will'ya."
BethLynn
RedThunder
posts something to flare it up again.
I know some people who belong to the DebbilMice and are wonderful. I also know
some people who belong to the DebbilMice and are not wonderful. I know some
people who don't belong to the DebbilMice and are wonderful. I also know some
people who don't belong to the DebbilMice and aren't wonderful.
The key is, they are all people. Each is an individual person. What is the point
of saying that the DM are bad or evil? That's kind of like saying that all black
people are ignorant, which is stereotypical and demonstrates a lack of knowledge
of both the world and of African-Americans.
Some DM may be annoying, some may be rude. Some may even be downright nasty. But
I can find people on the NG who are annoying, rude, and nasty, and they aren't
DM. I can also find people who are kind, generous, and helpful, and they are DM.
Please, just let it go. This continual arguing is to the disadvantage of both
sides.
RedThunder
CiCi Lean2
<lots and lots and lots of... uh, stuff... snipped>
Wait a second.
Does this mean that I'm NOT the girl who is drawing the pictures of the high
school janitor while he's fucking the ugly girl?
Shit.
NOW I'm confused.
CiCi
(sighing and crumpling up picture...)
Zootlet2
>But
>I can find people on the NG who are annoying, rude, and nasty, and they
>aren't
>DM. I can also find people who are kind, generous, and helpful, and they
>are DM.
Three cheers for Red Thunder, for getting it exactly right.
--Alicia, DM, who can be all of the above, often at the same time
GeoRed
In article <77oke7$7dr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, bl...@southwind.net writes:
>evility
Is this really a word? <g>
And you did so shoot John Lennon.....I sawr it wiff me own two eyes.
I am feeling rather......mischevious.......this evening. Ignore me. <g>
Heidi
::::::::with head in hands, rocking slowly::::::::::
"It just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter."
<Mulder: He's not just lean.......he's cuisine.>
JourneyToX
all DM are bad people. Thanks Red T. I'm hearing good things about you too.
Would that everyone had the character and cojones to :::gasp!::: judge DM as
individuals, instead of by this ridiculously distorted, evil urban legend that
just won't go away. (Ya listening, Laura? Or are you composing another
incomprehensible rant?)
The DM know that there are a few ringers on the email list - open to all,
nobody thrown off for any reason - who lurk simply to carry little tidbits -
without context, and certainly without the 90+% of posts that are just fun and
goofiness - back to their 'friends' on ATXC. Someone has an apparently vested
interest in making sure the DM keep a nasty rep. Next time you, dear ATXC
reader, hear a vicious "DM" rumor - think at least twice, maybe 3 times. Ask
the person repeating the rumor to you what *else* was posted recently by DM.
You'll get recipes, smut and goofy jokes. So evil, so wrong? Judge for
yourself.
I'll wear the DM label with pride because I know what it *really* is. Do you?
Sheare Bliss
To: geo...@aol.com (GeoRed)
Subject: Re: Duh... MORE NEWBIES OF NOTE.
X-Newsgroups: alt.tv.x-files.creative
In-Reply-To: <77oke7$7dr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990116002137...@ngol04.aol.com>
In article <19990116002137...@ngol04.aol.com> you wrote:
<hanging head> I know, I forgot to include that on my resume.
Please forgive me.
bliss
:>evility
--
Sheare Bliss
: Laura Buchard sez:
: Wait a second.
: Shit.
: NOW I'm confused.
No, silly, it means that you're the person who shot the Pope.
bliss
--
Laura Burchard
"I decline utterly to be impartial as between the fire brigade and the
fire." -- Churchill
Sorry, Red Thunder. I am sure you mean well, but that's a false
compromise, and that's not a logical fallacy I care to make. Let me
explain again: I think that anonymous attacks and parodies -- either from
people being anonymous (and that includes fake identities) or attacks with
obvious targets but no names -- are low and cowardly behavior. I think
they are low and cowardly behavior no matter who makes them; but at the
moment, the DM pages and CiCi's blind items are the ones I know about.
The fact that the MST directory has been deleted from those pages makes me
a little bit hope that the persons involved have realized the wrongness of
such anonymous attacks; and mostly suspect that they think it makes them
look bad before their audience. Viruses evolve into benignity with their
hosts, after all; if that's what is happening here, I am perfectly happy
to remain part of the evolutionary pressure.
JourneyToX
>No, silly, it means that you're the person who shot the Pope.
>
>bliss
Damn. Who do I get to shoot?
JTX, who knows the feel of a Walther PPK pretty well
GravesPA2
But how about the feel of a Walter S. S.? <g>
Paula Graves
"Someone should slap Martha's jaw."
- my mother, upon watching a promo for MARTHA STEWART LIVING
bliss
>Blissy said to CiCi:
>
>>No, silly, it means that you're the person who shot the Pope.
>>
>>bliss
>
>Damn. Who do I get to shoot?
>
>JTX, who knows the feel of a Walther PPK pretty well
Hmmmmmm. Spender?
bliss
December02
><<JTX, who knows the feel of a Walther PPK pretty well>>
>
>But how about the feel of a Walter S. S.? <g>
Ooooo... is he loaded and ready to go as well?
Laura
To reply to my email, simply remove the xxxxx after aol.com
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not
become a monster."
- Nietzsche from Thus Spake Zarathustra
bliss
><<JTX, who knows the feel of a Walther PPK pretty well>>
>
>But how about the feel of a Walter S. S.? <g>
>
>
<thud> Oh, Gawd. That was inspired, Paula
bliss <who cannot wait to see a partially clad Skinner on Sunday night and
thinks God is finally rewarding her for good behavior>
>Paula Graves
>
>"Someone should slap Martha's jaw."
>- my mother, upon watching a promo for MARTHA STEWART LIVING
>
>
"I am not an angry girl/but it seems like I've got
bliss
Ask someone about THE LAMP!!!
bliss
grav...@aol.com (GravesPA2) wrote:
><<JTX, who knows the feel of a Walther PPK pretty well>>
>
>But how about the feel of a Walter S. S.? <g>
>
>
GeoRed
In article <77qqub$m4f$2...@opal.southwind.net>, Sheare Bliss
<bl...@onyx.southwind.net> writes:
>: Shit.
>
>: NOW I'm confused.
>
>: CiCi
>: (sighing and crumpling up picture...)
>
>No, silly, it means that you're the person who shot the Pope.
Nope, that was you/me too. <g>
bliss
Okay, but she DID do Lizzy Borden's parents.
bliss
geo...@aol.com (GeoRed) wrote:
"I am not an angry girl/but it seems like I've got
RedThunder
never subscribed to the DM list, and have never really read the posts about
them previously (having limited time, I generally focus on the stories.)
However, there is one topic that several people have mentioned, and which I'd
like to address. It's the matter of pseudonyms.
Obviously, I use a fake name, but I have valid reasons for doing so, and I
find it very hard to apologize for those reasons.
1) I have had some bad experiences through e-mail, and I would prefer that my
name never be in 'out there' on the internet where just anyone can get it.
That's not to say that I never give it out. Everyone who is helping with the
awards knows my real name, and generally, if anything more than business
passes through the e-mail, I include my name. Of late, that's not always been
the case, because I'm used to signing with RedThunder, but in normal
circumstances, that holds true.
2) Eventually, I'd like to try and make, if not a living, at least a profit
with my writing. All too often a great author pulls his or her stories because
their real name is attached, and I'd rather not have to do that. I'm not
saying that I'm great or that I will ever make a living as an author, but,
since everything is under a false name, I never have to worry about knowing
every location that it's archived at (which is especially good, since there
are site maintainers who don't bother to ask permission before archiving a
story.)
That's it. Nothing spectacular. And I certainly don't use a pen name because I
want to hide in anonymity when I flame someone. I don't think that I've ever
posted something that could be seen as intentionally cruel, though I will be
the first to admit that I've hurt people involuntarily -- in those cases, I
could think of little else to do but apologize sincerely.
And sincerely, I'd like to end this thread, for once and for all. This
bickering really isn't helping either side, and it takes up bandwidth that
some people can't spare. If you would like to respond, please do so through
e-mail.
Thanks,
RedThunder
JourneyToX
>But how about the feel of a Walter S. S.? <g>
Oh how I wish.
I could handle that so, so well.
JourneyToX
>>Damn. Who do I get to shoot?
>>
>>JTX, who knows the feel of a Walther PPK pretty well
Then Blissy said:
>Hmmmmmm. Spender
Shaddup. I like the Ferret.
Laura Burchard
>In article <77odqn$1lt$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> l...@radix.net wrote:
>> Certainly, trying to appropriate the moral raiment of others seems to be a
>> habit of yours; thus your attempt to claim your own victims as perpetrators.
>> Or perhaps it's to spread the burden of guilt farther. That was my guess when
>> I received a DM list invite out of the blue some months ago; I was briefly
>> tempted to join and see just who, indeed, was responsible, but I suspected
>> that the purpose of it was to then reveal who had joined; I am now proved
>> correct. If you want to prove how innocent the list is, I suggest making the
>> archives world readable instead.
>I have no idea what of this all means, but I'm guessing it's aimed personally
>at Cici. In fact, nothing has been proven correct or incorrect. As to
>making the archives world readable, I've got no problem with it. The
>debbilmice list would have to vote, but I don't see that as a problem.
Hello? Are you paying attention to the thread? Go several messages up and
you will discover CiCi tweaking Hindy for being on the list. It's not the
first time the subscription list has been used so in this thread.
And can I repeat again: neither number of participants or your pleasure
lends any moral gloss to activities. Mobs do good things and bad things.
People take pleasure in cruel things and kind things. If they are intended
to shill for the list, feel free to shill for the list; but please stop
pretending that you are talking to me rather than an audience.
I haven't seen any comments about me; send them along if you think I
should read them. Can't imagine it's not anything I haven't said about my
own writing.
As for the rest -- you want to say I've ever hidden under anonymity to
slam people? Or that I say things behind people's backs while being
falsely sweet to them in public? Or saying things that I won't repeat to
their faces? Then put the facts on the table and quit with vague
accusations. Quotes and places and incidents. I don't do vague.
JourneyToX
>bliss <who cannot wait to see a partially clad Skinner on Sunday night and
>thinks God is finally rewarding her for good behavior>
Good behaviour? You're a Debbilmouse, woman! Good?!?! It is to snigger!
JourneyToX
>>
>
>Laura
Let's just say this little quip of Laura's drove me right over the edge.
You do know that edge I'm talking about, yes?
The anticipation of this ep has got me frazzled. Frazzled and distracted.
Distracted and...is it hot in here, and humid, or is it just me?
I'll have to excuse myself now.
JourneyToX
>Nope, that was you/me too. <g>
I am you, and she is me and we are all together.
Which will undoubtedly screw up our credit ratings and social security
accounts.
Drovar
>>JTX, who knows the feel of a Walther PPK pretty well
>
>Hmmmmmm. Spender?
>
>bliss
:::snort::: Yahhh!
Drovar
Laura Burchard
JourneyToX
::::::snoring:::::
:::::::snoring:::::
Someone wake me up when Laura gets over her grudge.
Until then, I will snooze away with benignity.
<!>
Dasha K
>Nice vogueing, CiCi. Fails to change the facts, however.
>
>Laura
Okay, I'm confused...what does a dance, popular in the New York drag clubs of
the 80s have to do with the argument at hand?
Dasha K.
Admitting your fanfic problem is the first step...
Shameless plug- come see Dasha K's Fanfic-O-Rama
Sosoprano
>
>Laura
Isn't CiCi sexy when she vogues?
::::sits back with a tall, cool one to watch:::::
December02
><gulp> Seaquest
Oh, I've been trying to place that all week! Now I wish I hadn't! LOL ewwwwww
December02
Being recently reemed for a mistake on this board, I'm passing along a little
advice. Take it to private email and drop it on the newsgroup, pretty please?
GeoRed
In article <36a21f60...@news.southwind.net>, bl...@xsouthwind.net (bliss)
writes:
>Okay, but she DID do Lizzy Borden's parents.
Nope, nope, nope.......that was you too. <g> It's all about you.
Laura Burchard
>Okay, I'm confused...what does a dance, popular in the New York drag clubs of
>the 80s have to do with the argument at hand?
Vogueing. It's my term for when someone doesn't have a good answer for a
point, so they start mugging theatrically in hopes of distracting people
from the fact that they don't have a good answer.
bliss
partially clad. I am worried about the green decorative pattern ripped from
<gulp> Seaquest.
bliss
journ...@aol.com (JourneyToX) wrote:
>Blissy said:
>
>>bliss <who cannot wait to see a partially clad Skinner on Sunday night and
>>thinks God is finally rewarding her for good behavior>
>
>Good behaviour? You're a Debbilmouse, woman! Good?!?! It is to snigger!
>
>
>*~*~*~*~*~*
>Journ...@aol.com, BYFP, not BOFQ
>MORE Skinner, Save Spender, Can Kersh, Flush Fowley.
>"God Bless America! Now get your asses out of here!" 1939!Skinner, Triangle
>"Oh yeahhhh!" Mitch Pileggi, Season 3 Gag Reels. :-)
>~*~*~*~*~
>
>
>
>
>
"I am not an angry girl/but it seems like I've got
bliss
a couple of reminder words. DC Expo.
Having discovered that someone was unaware of your Cranky Rant on atxf, you
proceeded to tell them about it. At length. While using the names of the
people you listed, and my own, to illustrate the wonder of your rhetoric and how
it had upset me and Goo and presumably a few others so much that we pulled our
work from the Net and vanished into virtual obscurity.
And then there was the, "And what has she written lately" discussion about Goo
and I, apparently living off past laurels.
I find your posturing about moral values a little excessive in light of this
incident. And when I approached you directly about it, you evaded the issue and
frankly, in my opinion, outright lied. Given my experiences with you and with
the witnesses, I'm inclined to believe the witnesses. But that's just my
experience.
We all do things that make us look like asses on occasion, either because of
temper or pride. Instead of carrying a banner for moral purity, it should make
us leery of claiming any such thing. I responded to your points and you chose,
once again, to use your skill with multi-syllabic words and rhetoric to again
divert back to your chosen rant, instead of replying. Be my guest. Just don't
expect me to respect your intellect and probity when sophistry is your game.
bliss
l...@Radix.Net (Laura Burchard) wrote:
>Laura
>
>Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
>X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
>
>"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
>
"I am not an angry girl/but it seems like I've got
Laura Burchard
bliss <bl...@xsouthwind.net> wrote:
>With regard to putting facts on the table, Laura, I did that privately. I have
>a couple of reminder words. DC Expo.
>Having discovered that someone was unaware of your Cranky Rant on atxf, you
>proceeded to tell them about it. At length. While using the names of the
>people you listed, and my own, to illustrate the wonder of your rhetoric and how
>it had upset me and Goo and presumably a few others so much that we pulled our
>work from the Net and vanished into virtual obscurity.
>And then there was the, "And what has she written lately" discussion about Goo
>and I, apparently living off past laurels.
>I find your posturing about moral values a little excessive in light of this
>incident. And when I approached you directly about it, you evaded the issue and
>frankly, in my opinion, outright lied. Given my experiences with you and with
>the witnesses, I'm inclined to believe the witnesses. But that's just my
>experience.
Ah, yes, WUDEC again. I'm assuming, since you are saying that I lied to
you in private email, that you are granting me permission to quote a few
lines from yours, necessary to set up the answers that you claim were
lies.
-----
From an email in answer to you on 9/26/98, re the Moral Cowardice thread:
Bliss: Telling a group of people at the Expo that your Cranky Rant made me
take down a web page (far from true, btw, my dear) is moral courage?
Laura: If it wasn't at all related, I'm happy to hear that; it bothered me
a great deal at the time (still bothers me when I look at the empty
directory) and I'd be glad to know that I didn't cause it in any way. I
gather you have the impression I was bragging about it; if I recall
correctly it was in the context of saying that I found it hard to argue
vigorously with you, as you found things much more hurtful than I intended
(as in the discussion on the web forum after the rant), and it caused such
effects as the web pages disappearing, which affected lots of people not
involved at all.
-----
-----
And from the followup, 9/28/98, "Re: Facts and Facts":
Bliss: So, you're evidently ignoring those facts in favor of your own
perceptions, or you're just having fun stirring the pot and feeding the
flames, or the characterization given me with regard to your EXPO
behavior was quite correct.
Laura: I'm not sure why you keep bringing up WUDEC; to my best recall,
someone brought up you and livengoo, I said that I found you (actually, I
think I was referring to both you and goo) very hard to have a good
argument with, because you reacted very badly, and seemed like a very
fragile person.
Someone else said yeah, like they've done anything worth while in years. I
said that's not true, Complicated Shadows came out last summer and was
brilliant; that I really respected your work, and so I thought it was too
bad that you could dish it out but couldn't take it. I'm actually not sure
if the remark about the cranky rant being responsible for the
disappearance of your web pages at dtc.net (which I remembered as having
been recreated after the initial CS furor, and to have vanished again
about the time you were being very upset and hurt about my comments on the
Fox board, feeling that they were unwontedly personal and that you were
thinking of withdrawing from the community; I'm glad to know I remember
incorrectly) came after the first set of remarks or the second; it was in
response to someone's comment on the couch across from me, so it's not
directly connected to the conversation in my memory. It may have even been
at a later point in the evening, when someone referred to me as the cranky
rant Laura, and I said 'agh, don't tell me that's how I'm going to be
remembered forever."
That's my recollection of conversation as clear as I can make it; if you
have further information to help, I can try to reconstruct it more
completely.
You seem to think I said things there that I wouldn't directly to you if
asked your honest opinion. I didn't; I do think you are a brilliant writer
and a very fragile person. Of course, like anyone else, I'm very
vulnerable to being nervous about the impact I made on people I didn't
know, especially since a roomful of strangers tends to send me into overly
hyper mode. So I guess you can make me feel bad about the way I looked or
acted, if you want. But not about what I said.
-----
Evaded the issue? EVADED THE ISSUE? What the hell *are* you talking about?
You never did give me further information up to now; so to address your
two direct points.
>Having discovered that someone was unaware of your Cranky Rant on atxf,
>you proceeded to tell them about it. At length. While using the names
>of the people you listed, and my own, to illustrate the wonder of your
>rhetoric and how it had upset me and Goo and presumably a few others so
>much that we pulled our work from the Net and vanished into virtual
>obscurity.
Point one: Don't recall recounting the cranky rant at all; I wouldn't be
surprised if I explained to someone what it was about, though I don't
recall that specifically either. The most likely point would have been
after the 'agh, don't tell that's how I'm going to be known forever'
comment.
And, if I did... what's your point? Did I try to hide anything? Heck, I
would have happily repeated everything I said that night into a tape
recorder if your informant had asked; it's a pity that she or he lacked
the courage to say anything at the time. I stand behind every point in
that rant -- my only regret was that in an attempt to be forceful and less
clause-studded than usual, I left some "In my opinion," prefixes off of
sentences that really should have been there.
Your complaint appears to be... that I wasn't secretive enough!
And of course the last bit is nonsense. I said nothing about Goo pulling
her work, because she didn't; I said nothing about you leaving the
community; I said that you had deleted the dtc.net directory after the
cranky rant, and that was why I found you too fragile to have debates
with. I said it because I believed it at the time. You said on the forum
that it made you want to quit; the directory was deleted; I had seen the
deletion during the CS affair; I made the connection. I'm quite happy to
know it was completely co-oincidental.
I don't recall the exact words, unfortunately, just the shape of them.
Something along the lines of a rueful/sardonic/bitchy 'she deleted it, and
it's my fault, all my fault, I'm bad!'. Powered by a mixture of regret and
irritation, if it helps pin it down. I was talking to people on the small
arm of the couch, or behind it, so they might remember more about the
wording if they were one of the WUDECers here.
>And then there was the, "And what has she written lately" discussion
about Goo
>and I, apparently living off past laurels.
And what's this got to do with me? I certainly didn't say you hadn't
written anything lately, as explicated in email two above.
>We all do things that make us look like asses on occasion, either because of
>temper or pride. Instead of carrying a banner for moral purity, it should make
>us leery of claiming any such thing. I responded to your points and you chose,
>once again, to use your skill with multi-syllabic words and rhetoric to again
>divert back to your chosen rant, instead of replying. Be my guest. Just don't
>expect me to respect your intellect and probity when sophistry is your game.
Paragraph one: you once again go on about the number of people on the
list. Addressed in paragraph 2 of my reply: "neither number of
participants or your pleasure lends any moral gloss to activities"
Paragraph two: not letting crowds make moral judgements for you is good.
You don't do it either. Not addressed in my reply because it was a point
of agreement, but if you need it addressed: "Not letting crowds make moral
judgements for you is good."
Paragraph three: I don't know what you are talking about, but it hasn't
been proved anyway! Addressed in paragraph 1 of my reply, where I directed
you to CiCi's post that proved my point about the uses of the DM sub list.
Paragraph four: you hurt people too! Let me repeat my point: whatever I
say, I stand behind. My reputation is staked upon my words, my clarity, my
honesty. _I_ _do_ _not_ _hide_.
Paragraph five: Inquiry if this was because someone commented on me in
some piece on the DM site. Addressed in paragraph three of my reply: no, I
hadn't seen it, send it along if you like. If that was overly complex, let
me make it simple: 'no'.
Paragraph six: Point one: more vogueing, irrelevant overdramatization.
Point two: you have lots of friends in fanfic. Addressed in paragraph 2 of
my reply "neither number of participants or your pleasure lends any moral
gloss to activities"
Paragraph seven: It's the blind items that bother me, _really_, right? I
will repeat my comment to Red Thunder: "I think that anonymous attacks and
parodies -- either from people being anonymous (and that includes fake
identities) or attacks with obvious targets but no names -- are low and
cowardly behavior. I think they are low and cowardly behavior no matter
who makes them; but at the moment, the DM pages and CiCi's blind items are
the ones I know about."
Paragraph eight and nine: Only some points of view are allowed by you!
Plus a really amusing, if transparent, attempt to rewrite my thesis.
Addressed in my whole damn series of replies, but I'll repeat it short and
sweet: Say whatever you like. But stand the fuck behind it instead of
doing it anonymously or pseudonymously. I'm no more nice than you are;
I've ranted before about nice being overrated. But I put myself out there
to be hit back at, fair and square. Slam me back? Go for it. Parody me?
I'm totally parodable, adverbs all over the place, my utter seriousness to
the point of grimness, my addiction to semicolons and dashes. _Just put
your own name on it._
The MSTs are gone, you put your name on your essays; if eventually
everything on the DM site has a real identity attached, I will be happy.
I'll be done with it.
Paragraph ten: More about how much fun the list is for you. Irrelevant, as
addressed in paragraph 2 once again: "neither number of participants or
your pleasure lends any moral gloss to activities." Since I've said this
before, but you keep going on about how much fun it is, I assume it's an
attempt to get more people on the list by saying how fun it is.
Paragraph eleven: The debbilmice must not be evil because you have such
fun. Addressed in paragraph 2, yadda yadda yadda.
If you wish any further gloss, explication, or expansion, or have any
further points you wish addressed, I will be happy to provide it.
JourneyToX
>Ah, yes, WUDEC again. I'm assuming, since you are saying that I lied to
>you in private email, that you are granting me permission to quote a few
>lines from yours,
What an assumption. What a breach of netiquette. If you had any point to
make, you could, with skill, make it without resort to private dialogue.
You have so much to say about how bad the Debbilmice are, Laura, but......
two words: glass houses.
JourneyToX
>Nope, nope, nope.......that was you too. <g> It's all about you.
>
It is? In that case, can I have a chai non-fat latte and would you vacuum my
car for me?
Hindy Bradley
JourneyToX wrote:
>
> What an assumption. What a breach of netiquette. If you had any point to
> make, you could, with skill, make it without resort to private dialogue.
Really? I thought the debbilmaus was founded on the principle (?) that
there is no such thing as private email.
Ask Bliss.
Hindy
Laura Burchard
JourneyToX <journ...@aol.com> wrote:
>Laura said:
>
>>Ah, yes, WUDEC again. I'm assuming, since you are saying that I lied to
>>you in private email, that you are granting me permission to quote a few
>>lines from yours,
>
>make, you could, with skill, make it without resort to private dialogue.
Darling sweety, when someone says I lied to them in email, I put up the
email. Let me quote from bliss' post:
"With regard to putting facts on the table, Laura, I did that privately.
I have a couple of reminder words. DC Expo.... And when I approached you
directly about it, you evaded the issue and frankly, in my opinion,
outright lied. "
There's the magic word: lied.
Let's take a little walk through logic: exactly how can we examine this
point? Why, by looking at the email. So I've just put up every word I've
ever exchanged with bliss about WUDEC.
Say I lied in email, and it *will* go up for all to examine and make their
own judgement.
If I've forgotten anything I said on the subject, bliss is equally free to
put it up. In fact, I'd far prefer to post the entire emails that those
paragraphs were taken from, so that I cannot be accused of taking
paragraphs out of context; I cut it down only the parts about WUDEC
because posting parts not directly related to the accusation of a lie
*would* have been a violation of netiquette. The publishing of the full is
up to bliss to grant or no.
>You have so much to say about how bad the Debbilmice are, Laura, but......
>two words: glass houses.
Throw all the rocks you like. I don't think I'll be breaking.
JourneyToX
>>You have so much to say about how bad the Debbilmice are, Laura, but......
>>two words: glass houses.
Laura said:
<a great deal of stuff attempting to justify breach of netiquette, and about
things nobody gives a damn about, attempting to justify her grudge,
blahblahblah ad nauseum>
>Throw all the rocks you like. I don't think I'll be breaking.
>
The next sound you hear will be a point zooming right over Laura's head.
You're the ones throwing stones, dear. And, as a consequence, you're already
broken.
JourneyToX
>there is no such thing as private email.
Then you would be wrong.
Palinurus
> Laura said:
>
> <a great deal of stuff attempting to justify breach of netiquette, and about
> things nobody gives a damn about, attempting to justify her grudge,
> blahblahblah ad nauseum>
You rant and you rave; then when someone replies, suddenly the subject
has become too boring to bother. This tactic seems familiar... My guess
is it's from the official debbilmice tactics handbook?
> You're the ones throwing stones, dear. And, as a consequence, you're already
> broken.
I'm sure there's a meaning in this phrase somewhere. And if not, it
definitely sounds poetic.
--
Carla (Palinurus)
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
http://www.geocities.com/televisioncity/set/2938/slash.html
Palinurus
> Geez--the way you guys talk, the debbilmice are responsible for everything.
And that's another DM chorus line.
Palinurus
>
> Laura said:
>
> >Ah, yes, WUDEC again. I'm assuming, since you are saying that I lied to
> >you in private email, that you are granting me permission to quote a few
> >lines from yours,
>
> make, you could, with skill, make it without resort to private dialogue.
That's pure McCarthyism. "We have these secret documents that show
you're guilty. Of course, if you publish them to prove your innocence,
we'll jail you for publishing secret documents."
Khyber
>People. This is a group for fanfic, yes? Can we take all the petty bickering
>to private mail? I'm sure sick of seeing dirty laundry flutter over the
>stories I'm tryin' to read...
May as well post it here if someone's going to post it for you
eventually, right?
Khyber
(once bitten, twice shy)
Pyrephox18
>On 8 Jan 1999 17:24:10 GMT, Sheare Bliss <bl...@onyx.southwind.net> wrote:
>
>>I want to apologize for losing my temper with Marlene
>>(iwo...@earthlink.net) and once more contributing to dragging a matter
>>into the newsgroup that had no business being here. Next time, I will
>>count to one hundred and ignore it.
>
>EB said:
>
>>Forgive me for being skeptical, but after years of watching you imposing
>>your dirty laundry and pitiful grudges on atxc, I'll believe this when I
>>see it.
>
>Look familiar? She lasted less than a week this time. Truer word were
>never said, Miss Elise!
>
Actually, what I saw here was Bliss giving an apology, which was followed by
new accusations against her. I believe this was the ballot-stuffing post that
you snipped, correct?
It certainly does show *something*, but bliss isn't the one who comes off
looking the worst for it...
Pyrephox- ::sigh:: And I'm still waiting on the Sk/K smut from Sunday, people!
:>
Filk-lover, Fanficker, Gamer, Happy Little Pagan (tm), X-Phile, Pezhead, etc.
-
The only problem with mortality is that you die.
December02
In article <36A3EB...@geocities.com>, Palinurus <pali...@geocities.com>
writes:
>MissElise wrote:
>
>> Geez--the way you guys talk, the debbilmice are responsible for everything.
>
>And that's another DM chorus line.
Oh boy. This is never going to end. I suggest a new newsgroup so both sides
can continue this debate forever. It'll never end!
StarGzrCMC
>
>And that's another DM chorus line.
Yawn.
Can y'all take this to e-mail already? I haven't got time to read the stuff
that's spamming my fic-fix.
Catherine Chandler
StarG...@aol.com
(remove ".spooky" to reply)
"Nobody gets a hole in one their first time at bat."
Laura Burchard
MissElise <miss...@aol.com> wrote:
>People. This is a group for fanfic, yes? Can we take all the petty bickering
>to private mail? I'm sure sick of seeing dirty laundry flutter over the
>stories I'm tryin' to read...
Sorry. Not going to happen.
Cast your mind back to September and the first round of this joy. As a
mere bystander, I pointed out that Bliss (and Cici) had not, in fact,
denied that Bliss had posted the Debbilmice announcements; rather they had
given the appearance of it with rather clever wordplay. I actually had a
certain admiration for the Jesuitical cunning -- I respect the ability to
dance with words -- and I was in fact later proved to be correct in my
skepticism.
For this, I got, among other things, the accusation of a 'baldfaced lie'.
I was gentle and sweet and took it to email. Which emails I have just had
thrown back in my face as lies.
I'm not doing that routine again. I'll speak with witnesses. I don't fear
it.
My regrets to those whose newsgroup reading is disturbed, however.
Woodinat
>From: l...@Radix.Net (Laura Burchard)
>Date: 1/19/99 1:14 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <7817sm$3ie$1...@saltmine.radix.net>
>
>
Laura wrote:
<snip>
>My regrets to those whose newsgroup reading is disturbed, however.
Then take it to private email. Whatever beef you guys have with each other,
it's clearly private. Hash it out, argue, make insulting comments about each
other's pets. But do it in private email.
I also have another idea. Why not accept that yunz don't like each other and
stop arguing? I don't like everyone in the X Files fandom, or the other
fandoms I enjoy. But, when they annoy me, I ignore them. It's not that hard.
If you can't stand the posts of a certain person, you could set up a kill
filter for their posts, or you could just immediately stop reading once you see
their name on the post. Why waste time and raise your blood pressure when it's
not worth it?
Woodinat
(Keep in mind I'm not siding with or against anyone specifically, I just think
this thread is a huge waste of bandwith)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel: What do you want for Christmas, Crow?
Crow: I wanna decide who lives and who dies
Joel: Oh, I don't know...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
gwe...@aol.com
l...@Radix.Net (Laura Burchard) wrote:
>
> MissElise <miss...@aol.com> wrote:
> >People. This is a group for fanfic, yes? Can we take all the petty
bickering
> >to private mail? I'm sure sick of seeing dirty laundry flutter over the
> >stories I'm tryin' to read...
>
> Sorry. Not going to happen.
>
> Cast your mind back to September and the first round of this joy.
It may shock you to know that the vast majority of people on this NG don't
care what happened between you and Bliss and CiCi back in September. To be
honest, I'm on the DB mailing list (although I mostly lurk), generally have
positive feelings towards Bliss and CiCi and don't know you from Adam and
guess what...I still don't give a fuck (pardon my French).
Given my attitude, I will tell you this: your insistence that I should care is
arrogant and annoying. I'm equally vexed by those that continue to fight back
in public, btw. Why don't I just killfile the whole mess? Same reason I slow
down for car wrecks. I'm not proud. I'm also not satanic b/c I'm on the
debbilmice list (nor have I been brainwashed). I'm just frustrated with this
whole mess.
There are a LOT of people on this NG who should find other outlets for their
egos.
Go ahead and respond to this if you want to have the last word b/c I won't be
saying anything else on the matter.
Gwendolyn
http://alanna.net/gwen/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
JadedCat
but...
I honestly don't understand Laura's anger at the DebbilMice. I've recently
subscribed to the list and read most of the archived messages, and I fail to see
why they are considered outcasts of the ATXFC community. Yes, there is some
snarking, some cruel honesty, and some gossip, but that is to be expected when a
small group of friends gets together to talk about any topic.
Think of it this way, ATXFC is a very large fandom. There are many very different
people here with very different opinions and personalities. Some like MSR and some
like Slash, some wish to become professional writers and take this very seriously
and some could care less if it becomes more than a hobby. But ATXFC must be a
place for all of them to work and I now understand the desire of many to keep it a
civil place. But in order to keep it civil it is necessary for people who dislike
each other to either try to get along or ignore each other. At the same time this
cannot happen without an alternative outlet for opinions and gripes. Sort of like
the watercooler at work.
It's perfectly natural for people with similar personalities and opinions to form
groups where they can express their feelings, likes, dislikes, frustrations, and
anger. The DebbilMice have formed such a group and they keep no secrets, allowing
any person to join. Some use this against them and I believe this is where the
main part of the trouble is. The DebbilMice express themselves on the list openly
and without fear. But their enemies take their opinions and feelings and use them
as a weapon against them. I refuse to condemn anyone for their opinions or
feeling, whether I agree with them or not, as long as there is a logical reason
behind them. I may give my feelings and opinions back, but I respect their right
to their beliefs. It seems to me that for the most part the DebbilMice have very
respectfully taken their honest gripes to their personal forum, allowing this
community to remain less bloody and mostly civilized.
I am a Debbilmouse. I find the people on the group to be honest, friendly,
sometimes bitchy, and funny as hell. Very much like me. If that means you dislike
me, so be it. Please ignore me. If you don't like the DebbilMice, don't join them
and ignore them. If they hate your story, get over it. It's only their
*opinion.* Yes, their words can sometimes be hurtful, sometimes even
unintentionally hurtful, but remember they are only words and everyone has the
right to speak them.
Now, if it's not the DebbilMice as a group but only a personal grudge against one
or a few of the DM, then it's none of my business or this newsgroup's. Please take
it to e-mail.
JadedCat <--(Disclaimer: The above is just my *opinion.* Do not take it
personally.)
stillwater16
if the intention of exposing the newsgroup to your dirty laundry was to raise
public fervor for your side, it isn't working. you're all losing this Forever
War. the newsgroup (even though you don't think this is important) is losing
readers and writers who can't stand the sniping.
this group is supposed to be for fanfiction. it's not alt.laura., alt.bliss,
alt.usagainstyou, alt. debbilmice, or any other variation thereof.
please, please take it to email.
stillwater16, wondering what we did to deserve this
In article <19990119030929...@ng04.aol.com>, wood...@aol.com
says...
BethLynn
>stillwater16, wondering what we did to deserve this
Absolutely nothing. We're just the village being trod upon during this current
skirmish.
Do any of you 'warriors' realize the intensity of fear, resentment, and
anguish, you are generating by your continued battles of whose right and whose
wrong in a newsgroup that is populated with artists who just want to create?
*Most*, (Ohmigod, she's speaking for *most* of them....if you've been reading
and listening instead of doing the 'puff-up and strut' dance, you'd realize
this), of us don't give a flying fuck and just want you to shut the hell up,
but we apparently haven't been formulating our requests and concerns in a
language you understand.
I believe I recieved an e-mail from a concerned citizen wondering, "What the
hell is going on with atxfc? They appear to be having a core-meltdown."
*holds up hands* Please, don't feel the need to 'defend' yourself to this post.
*We* don't care. (Ohmigod, she's speaking for the masses again! Who does she
think she is!)
BethLynn
v...@pdq.net
relationship at best. She's quite adept at arguing on what she assumes (which
rarely has any connection to what the other person actually said). And if
she's losing the argument, she makes accusations or a joke.
Methinks she was never on the debate team in school. She reminds me of my
mother when my parents would fight. Blech.
Binah
Texas Gal Extraordinaire
==================================================================
Why is abbreviated such a long word? --Steven Wright
In article <36A3D3...@geocities.com>,
Palinurus <pali...@geocities.com> wrote:
> JourneyToX wrote:
>
> > Laura said:
> >
> > <a great deal of stuff attempting to justify breach of netiquette, and about
> > things nobody gives a damn about, attempting to justify her grudge,
> > blahblahblah ad nauseum>
>
> You rant and you rave; then when someone replies, suddenly the subject
> has become too boring to bother. This tactic seems familiar... My guess
> is it's from the official debbilmice tactics handbook?
>
> > You're the ones throwing stones, dear. And, as a consequence, you're
already
> > broken.
>
> I'm sure there's a meaning in this phrase somewhere. And if not, it
> definitely sounds poetic.
>
> --
> Carla (Palinurus)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
v...@pdq.net
In article <19990119030929...@ng04.aol.com>,
Binah
Texas Gal Extraordinaire
==================================================================
Why is abbreviated such a long word? --Steven Wright
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Lauryn137
>subscribed to the list and read most of the archived messages, and I fail to
>see
>why they are considered outcasts of the ATXFC community.
Who says that they're outcasts? I enjoyed the essays and MSTs.
Lauryn, who thinks she may be MSTed someday ... oh well ...
Jad3dCat
>Who says that they're outcasts? I enjoyed the essays and MSTs.
>Lauryn, who thinks she may be MSTed someday ... oh well ...
I'm sorry to say that won't happen. There will no longer be any playful
snarking or essays, nor any Monday smutcakes or lemon cake recipes. The
DebbilMice have surrendered and the war is over. But sadly, freedom of
thought was a casualty.
JadedCat
Julsb
>>Nope, nope, nope.......that was you too. <g> It's all about you.
>>
>
>It is? In that case, can I have a chai non-fat latte and would you vacuum my
>car for me?
Ladies, this is similar to the argument that previously existing in this thread
in that is has absolutely nothing to do with fan-fic. Please take to to
e-mail, or to an appropriate mailing list if one exists.
Thanks.
julianna
*********************************************************************
Sig wanted - enquire within
Laura Burchard
Oh, cut the fake martyrdom, though it's cute how freedom of speech wasn't
melodramatic enough for you, so you conjure the mysterious ability to stop
you thinking what you want.
It's just me. Just the words. Just the principles. Out in public. That's
the purest cleanest freedom of speech. If you can't deal with it, don't
deal, but don't whine because you can't.
Cincoflex
The debbilmice are disbanded. I'd like to see you stop bitching about "the
words" and maybe get back to fanfiction now since there's nobody left to
vilify.
Cinco
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."
Jad3dCat
Lauryn wrote:
>>>Who says that they're outcasts? I enjoyed the essays and MSTs.
>>>Lauryn, who thinks she may be MSTed someday ... oh well ...
>
>>I'm sorry to say that won't happen. There will no longer be any playful
>>snarking or essays, nor any Monday smutcakes or lemon cake recipes. The
>>DebbilMice have surrendered and the war is over. But sadly, freedom of
>>thought was a casualty.
>
>Oh, cut the fake martyrdom, though it's cute how freedom of speech wasn't
>melodramatic enough for you, so you conjure the mysterious ability to stop
>you thinking what you want.
>
>It's just me. Just the words. Just the principles. Out in public. That's
>the purest cleanest freedom of speech. If you can't deal with it, don't
>deal, but don't whine because you can't.
>
>Laura
>
it does not trample on the rights of others. I feel the continuation of this
personal war in this particular public forum tramples upon the rights of the
writers who are trying to work here.
Preserving an atmosphere where the writers could work is also the reason I felt
the DebbilMice had a right to exist. It was a place where a relatively small
group of friends could chat about events on ATXFC without imposing on the
citizens of ATXFC. I apologize profusely for imposing now, but I feel I must
speak my mind this last time whether or not anyone is still listening. I am
going to pour my heart out to the people of ATXFC even though I know most of
you don't know me and don't care.
I am very new to ATXFC and when I came here you all made me feel very welcome.
For that I am eternally grateful. But for some reason I still felt like an
outsider. Those feelings of being misplaced were not because of anyone from
ATXFC, they were because of my personality and my own set of expectations. The
newsgroup environment I was raised in was ATXF where people say things without
second thought. It is a playground where they joke and tease each other, yell
and laugh at each other, and have fights and fun. And I have never in all my
time there seen a war fought with more venom or with more casualties than this
one. It confuses me beyond words.
As you will probably see from this letter I am used to speaking my mind without
fear of consequences, but for reasons obvious to me now, this cannot happen
here. Not because it isn't allowed by some Nazi squad or because people will
attack you for your words, but because this just simply is not the place for
it. This is a creative place, a working environment, and like most working
environments politics is poison here. It is discouraged here for good reason
and I understand those reasons all too well now.
I was completely naive about the politics of this newsgroup until a couple of
weeks ago, and I must say the crash course was not pleasant. Unlike ATXF where
a flame war is usually just a game and all the players get back up and play
with each other some more, words are taken very seriously here. Perhaps
because you are more skilled with your words, they can injure and people do get
hurt. I apologize if I have ever hurt anyone with my words. It has never been
my intention to cause harm with my play. I apologize specifically to Laura for
calling her a pseudointellectual. I was angry and it was said with more malice
than I usually have. There is already too much malice in the real world. I
don't want to deal with it in the virtual world.
A couple of weeks ago there was condemnation of CiCi for posting Newbies of
Note for the Spooky awards because the newbies happened to be DebbilMice.
Wondering what all the fuss was about and preferring to judge for myself the
heinous deeds of said mice, I joined the DebbilMice out of curiosity. I joined
expecting nothing, but gained laughter and the chance to meet many very good
people. They are people I respected and admired as writers on ATXFC, and they
are people I now respect and admire as friends. And I still fail to see what
they did to deserve this.
I feel freedom of speech was not the only right trampled upon here. The
freedom to form groups and meet for the exchange of ideas was also harmed. I
may not agree with a groups actions or ideas, but I will fight for their right
to exist. However, since there is no longer any reason to fight, I am putting
down my meager weapons and surrendering with the mice. I promise this is my
last post that does not contain a story in the header. I am swearing off
politics and I will not intrude upon this community's peace again.
This is not directed at you Laura as I still have no idea what your real issue
with the DebbilMice is.
JadedCat
JourneyToX
< a lot of truthful things, and of them what hit me most is below>
> However, since there is no longer any reason to fight, I am putting
>down my meager weapons and surrendering with the mice
JadedCat: Anyone who speaks truth has all the weapons they ever truly need.
Anyone who has the courage you do will never be defenseless.
Anyone who has the heart that you do will never be without genuine friends, of
all political persuasions.
If you have courage, heart and truth, there is no need to surrender.
I'm proud to know you.
Lauryn137
>
"To hold a pen is to be at war." --Voltaire
I discovered the Debbilmice page about a month or so ago, and I wish I'd just
taken the leap and joined then. I don't know all the reasons for their
disbandment, but I hope it's temporary ... most likely not, but a girl can
hope.
Lauryn
Laura Burchard
honesty" of the DM list sobs out her grief at the horrible injury of
unkind words here. JourneyToX returns for her third final dramatic exit
from the thread to accompany her, staggering into the sunset, mournful
strings playing.
And I thought *I* was good at self-dramatization.
I quote: "I think that anonymous attacks and parodies -- either from
people being anonymous (and that includes fake identities) or attacks with
obvious targets but no names -- are low and cowardly behavior. "
In all this furor, I have yet to see anyone refute this.
To the extent that the DM site rejoiced in such behavior, I disrespected
the site.
To the extent that the authors were hidden among the DM list, I
disrespected the list.
To the extent that CiCi and co used the DM list as moral cover for such
behavior, I disrespect them.
So now the Ritual of Self-Martyrization has been performed (as opposed to
the Ritual of Seeking Reinforcement of Self-Worth), and the survivors
wander, lost in hostility, as I suspect they were meant to.
Take comfort; I'm sure that the list will return as just another bitchy
email list, one among many; being catty in email is fanficdom's national
sport. Take responsibility for your words, and I'll have no quarrel with
you.
GeoRed
In article <19990119172244...@ng01.aol.com>, ju...@aol.comxxink
(Julsb) writes:
>the argument degenerated to back-slapping:
>
>>>Nope, nope, nope.......that was you too. <g> It's all about you.
>>>
>>
>>It is? In that case, can I have a chai non-fat latte and would you vacuum my
>>car for me?
>
>Ladies, this is similar to the argument that previously existing in this
>thread
> in that is has absolutely nothing to do with fan-fic. Please take to to
>e-mail, or to an appropriate mailing list if one exists.
Who's arguing? We were just joking around.....oh, yeah.....that's not allowed.
Fanfic and ONLY fanfic....yeah, right, that'll be the day. Why don't you pick
a HOSTILE thread to respond to?
Heidi
::::::::with head in hands, rocking slowly::::::::::
"It just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter."
<Mulder: He's not just lean.......he's cuisine.>
Pyrephox18
Hi, I don't remember if you were previously a member of the Debbilmice (I
have a lousy memory), but I just started a new list for those who still want to
get together after the old list's dissolution...
If you're interested, it's:
If you're not, then terribly sorry to bother you. :>
Pyrephox- have a nice night.
Pyrephox18
<aol>
Oops.
</aol>
Oh, well. The list is public, anyway, so what the hell.
Pyrephox- comments, questions, concerns, and insults can all be sent through
e-mail (wince) since I'm not going to drag this out on the newsgroup.
BethLynn
Laura, it's amazing that you can run a moderated list, when you are apparently
unable to moderate yourself.
*groaning* Shit.
BethLynn
FEB
December02
Sarah Meland
someone could respond privately -- who, exactly, are the Debbilmice?
Or, from what I've read, who *were* they might be more accurate... I
guess it sounds like a stupid question, but I'm new to the NG, so...
I'd like to know -- is there *anyone* out there with a relatively
unbiased opinion? If so, please respond to my e-mail...
Thanks,
Sarah
"Who's the black private dick who's a sex machine with all the
chicks...SHAFT!...can you dig it? They say this cat Shaft is a bad
mother-- (shut your mouth!) -- talkin' 'bout Shaft."
Blurr1013
>I quote: "I think that anonymous attacks and parodies -- either from
>people being anonymous (and that includes fake identities) or attacks with
>obvious targets but no names -- are low and cowardly behavior. "
>
>In all this furor, I have yet to see anyone refute this.
Well, I guess this is as good a time as any to ask a quesion then.
Why are you on the Acid Desk's case for the "blind items?" Those aren't
anonymous attacks. CiCi Lean pretty clearly writes those and I've never seen
an attempt to characterize them as anything else.
Certainly, the subjects of the "blind items" are made secret, but if anything,
that only serves to protect such people's reputations to a degree. Why is that
cowardly behavior?
Targets of the "blind items" are obvious, you say? To whom, exactly??
Ok, go ahead. Fire away about how everyone knows who the "blind items" refer
to. Guess what?? I don't. I'll betcha a lot of random visitors to the Acid
Desk don't know and could care less. The commentary in and of itself is funny
without ever knowing who any of them are.
Look, I'm not much of a joiner and I don't really relate much to the rampant
caballing that exists within this community. I've never been a DM and I don't
subscribe to the AD. However, I've been exposed to both mediums and found them
to be a relevant expression of opinion. And damned funny at times. Hurtful?
Well, that label applies also in certain circumstances. But usenet and the
internet are public arenas. Swim at your own risk.
>Take responsibility for your words, and I'll have no quarrel with
>you.
Again, I fail to see where the Acid Desk doesn't meet that requirement. Just a
comment I guess. And one I'm sure to be made sorry about later.
-blurr (believe it or not, an impartial observer in this ng -- we do exist)
PS I've also followed this thread all along because believe it or not, you
guys do great comedy (I feel certain that's not the intended result, but hey,
you know what they say about opinions...)
Julsb
>allowed.
>Fanfic and ONLY fanfic....yeah, right, that'll be the day. Why don't you
>pick
>a HOSTILE thread to respond to?
Wow, what's happened to you in the past few months? Did the tornado whisk you
away and bring someone much touchier in to post in your place?
My point was pretty simple: there was a lot of complaining going on that the
thread was interrupting fan fic. Which means (by definition) that even friendly
discussions that are not about reading stories, writing stories, or
constructing FAQs about writing stories are off topic.
See? Nothing scary or to get offended about in there. I was merely applying a
logic most participants had already agreed with to a private conversation that
was going on in front of an audience of several thousands. Was it more pleasent
to read than the argument? Yes. Was it any more on topic? Er...no.
cheers,
GeoRed
In article <19990121045827...@ng05.aol.com>, ju...@aol.comxxink
(Julsb) writes:
>>Who's arguing? We were just joking around.....oh, yeah.....that's not
>>allowed.
>>Fanfic and ONLY fanfic....yeah, right, that'll be the day. Why don't you
>>pick
>>a HOSTILE thread to respond to?
>
>Wow, what's happened to you in the past few months? Did the tornado whisk you
>away and bring someone much touchier in to post in your place?
Actually, I have been reading this group and it's condescension far too
frequently and am getting terribly tired of it. It seemed to me that you
responded to a totally harmless back and forth discussion between JtX and
myself *instead* of the three or four threads filled with venom and bashing.
But that's just touchy little me.
>My point was pretty simple: there was a lot of complaining going on that the
>thread was interrupting fan fic. Which means (by definition) that even
>friendly
>discussions that are not about reading stories, writing stories, or
>constructing FAQs about writing stories are off topic.
>
>See? Nothing scary or to get offended about in there. I was merely applying a
>logic most participants had already agreed with to a private conversation
>that
>was going on in front of an audience of several thousands. Was it more
>pleasent
>to read than the argument? Yes. Was it any more on topic? Er...no.
Seems to me this logic is dated......unless you haven't been here in awhile.
This thread *was* about two posts per day.....as opposed to the sixty or
seventy off topic posts that appear here daily. Under several headings. I gave
up trying to find fic here some time ago. The reason I got ticked is that you
chose one thread to respond to after *weeks* of off topic garbage.
Dawn S Friedman
Dawn S Friedman
Palinurus <pali...@geocities.com> wrote:
>MissElise wrote:
>
>> Geez--the way you guys talk, the debbilmice are responsible for everything.
>
>And that's another DM chorus line.
>
If it is, what does that prove? It's an obvious statement for
anyone on that side of the argument to make; that doesn't mean
it's false. People accused of crimes often say "I'm innocent;"
is that a "criminal chorus line"?
--
Dawn Friedman d...@world.std.com
Dawn S Friedman
Laura Burchard <l...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>In article <19990117110555...@ng41.aol.com>,
>Dasha K <das...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>Nice vogueing, CiCi. Fails to change the facts, however.
>
>>Okay, I'm confused...what does a dance, popular in the New York drag clubs of
>>the 80s have to do with the argument at hand?
>
>Vogueing. It's my term for when someone doesn't have a good answer for a
>point, so they start mugging theatrically in hopes of distracting people
>from the fact that they don't have a good answer.
>
It's good how you can tell with perfect objectivity whether someone
has a good answer for a point, whether they're on your side or
not. Quite Solomonesque.
--
Dawn Friedman d...@world.std.com
Coleen Sullivan-Baier
> Why not accept that yunz don't like each other and stop arguing?
YUNZ!!! It's a Pittsburgher!!
Oh, it's Woodinat! Hi, Nat! Hey, I went **sideways** down that hill by the NW
Mall in the gizzmobile last Thursday, it was pee-my-pants scary.
We gotta get us all together soon, I miss us--and I have a REALLY cool
picture of you and Dean, somewhere. I have a cool new puppy, to, his name is Mulder:)
Watch out for that pothole on Three Degree, in front of the car wash, it almost
swallowed me.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
(derailing this thread in the interest of Phriendly Philedom)
Coleen Sullivan-Baier
jad3...@aol.com (Jad3dCat) wrote:
> The newsgroup environment I was raised in was ATXF where people say things without
>second thought. It is a playground where they joke and tease each other, yell
>and laugh at each other, and have fights and fun. And I have never in all my
>time there seen a war fought with more venom or with more casualties than this
>one.
You missed the "Limerick" massacre :)
XXXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXXXXX
(AKA Sergeant Green Panties)