New Star Wars = Transformers: The Move [Heavy Spoilers]

[Travoltron]

DON'T READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

Star Wars: The Last Jedi has become a hugely divisive film with Star
Wars fans. I've been following all the chatter on different forums.

I keep seeing this comparison being brought up by several different
people. Star Wars: The Last Jedi feels to them like how Transformers:
The Movie did in 1986 when they were kids.

They hated how Optimus Prime was cruelly killed off and they hated the
cynical way their favorite Autobots and Decepticons were killed off to
make room for new toy-characters to buy.

Han Solo is dead. Luke Skywalker is dead. Leia Organa is all but dead.
Disney paid $4 billion for Star Wars and some fans feel as if they just
killed it.
People feel like Luke was pushed aside to make room for new action
figures just like old Optimus was.

[Zobovor (the Man with All the Toys)]

On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:50:24 PM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:

> DON'T READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

Keeping your spoiler space intact, but I think that Google tends to compress a bunch of carriage returns so I figure I'll just write a big, long paragraph to serve as functional spoiler space. Though, I tend to think that anybody who would be worried about getting he new Star Wars film spoiled for them would have seen it already, but of course there are people who will always complain regardless. I will say, though, that I've been spoiled so many times just by looking up basic information (like, say, the name of an actor from The Walking Dead or Breaking Bad) because people seem to have this need to spread spoilers around like they were peanut butter over toasted bread.

Well, anyway.

> People feel like Luke was pushed aside to make room for new action
> figures just like old Optimus was.

Even before George Lucas sold off Star Wars, he envisioned a scenario in which an aged Mark Hamill served in the role of the wise, old mentor, passing down his teachings to the next generation of Jedi. So, at least Disney got that much right.

The problem, as I see it, is not one of too many action figures, but rather not enough. I've said this before, but with Disney cranking out a new Star Wars film every single year like clockwork, there's barely time for Hasbro to produce action figures of the main characters, and only the main characters, before moving right on to the next movie. If the characters from a film don't resonate with fans and collectors, then stores are stuck with irrelevant action figures when the next movie pops up. Witness the large number of toys from Rogue One still lingering in stores even though that film is completely old hat now.

I do get the sense that Disney is pushing all the old characters out the door. Harrison Ford always wanted Han Solo to die, of course, but there's no way to address Carrie Fisher's death without either killing Leia off-screen or having her continue to pull the strings off-screen until she fades away into obscurity. In the meantime, there are new actors performing Chewbacca and R2-D2, characters who are sustainable indefinitely since you can just keep putting somebody new into the suit. Eventually, somebody will have to take up the mantle for C-3PO, and the character will never sound the same again.

In some ways, it's like what's been happening for a while with Sesame Street and the Muppets. When principal performers have passed away or retired or get fired, puppets are sometimes retired as well, or reduced to background appearances with non-speaking roles, or are recast. Usually, the results of recasting are utterly disastrous. Performers can attempt to emulate the voice characterizations created by Jim Henson or Richard Hunt or Carrol Spinney but it's never the same.

The reality, though, is that this is the only way to continue telling stories with these characters. When it comes to people who perform characters without costumes or puppetry or make-up, that actor's face IS the character. Killing off Luke Skywalker in a controlled, deliberate manner is probably better for storyline purposes than what happened with Carrie Fisher, where they basically went, "Well, crap, now what do we do?" The sad truth is that Hamill and Fisher and Ford aged considerably since they were first cast in those roles and they could not continue playing them indefinitely. We're actually very lucky that we got them briefly for a reprise.

Ultimately, though, Disney is a corporation and they have to think about what's marketable. Younger actors in new roles like Daisy Ridley and John Boyega are more sustainable over the long-term (though Ridley has said she's getting out of Star Wars after Episode IX). I wonder if they realize, though, that fans just don't seem to be as interested in all-new characters. Everything I've observed about consumer buying habits suggests that toys of original trilogy characters still sell the best. As long as they're still pumping out new movies every year, though, the merchandising train is going to focus only on the newer characters. Which is a shame.


Zob (doesn't own any toys of Rey or Finn)

[Travoltron]

Harrison Ford doesn't want to do these movies any more, I get that.

But during production of this movie, Carrie Fisher died. Now, it's
obvious Disney's plan was to have Leia be the Legacy character that
lives on to inspire and lead the Resistance/Rebels. But you know, maybe
they should have modified their ending so that Leia dies from her
earlier injuries and Luke survives so that SOMEBODY is left. Yeah, Mark
is 66 years old, but statistically he's got at least another 10 years left.

C-3PO, R2-D2, and Chewbacca can be used forever. I know voice changes
annoy you and me, but probably 99% of the public wouldn't notice the
difference if C-3PO's voice changed. (Admiral Ackbar had a different
voice in this movie due to his voice actor dying. Yes, this movie even
killed off Admiral Ackbar, just because it could.)
But for whatever reason, Disney seems to want to sideline them, too!
Chewie got a little screen time, but R2-D2 and C-3PO did absolutely
nothing. I feel like they created BB-8 to replace them and I have no
idea why they needed to be replaced.

Yeah, the merchandising really tells the truth about it all, doesn't it?
I go into Wal-Mart looking for the (very few) figures I want (I'm never
going to find that Imperial Royal Guard) and I find a wall of Jyn Ersos.

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 7:41:01 PM UTC-6, Zobovor (the Man with All the Toys) wrote:
> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:50:24 PM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:
>
> > DON'T READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI
>
> Keeping your spoiler space intact, but I think that Google tends to compress a bunch of carriage returns so I figure I'll just write a big, long paragraph to serve as functional spoiler space. Though, I tend to think that anybody who would be worried about getting he new Star Wars film spoiled for them would have seen it already, but of course there are people who will always complain regardless. I will say, though, that I've been spoiled so many times just by looking up basic information (like, say, the name of an actor from The Walking Dead or Breaking Bad) because people seem to have this need to spread spoilers around like they were peanut butter over toasted bread.
>

Yeah, what they said, spoiler space is important and google loves to squash things for their pre-defined formatting that we don't get much in the way of choices when viewing.

> Well, anyway.
>
> > People feel like Luke was pushed aside to make room for new action
> > figures just like old Optimus was.
>
> Even before George Lucas sold off Star Wars, he envisioned a scenario in which an aged Mark Hamill served in the role of the wise, old mentor, passing down his teachings to the next generation of Jedi. So, at least Disney got that much right.
>
> The problem, as I see it, is not one of too many action figures, but rather not enough. I've said this before, but with Disney cranking out a new Star Wars film every single year like clockwork, there's barely time for Hasbro to produce action figures of the main characters, and only the main characters, before moving right on to the next movie. If the characters from a film don't resonate with fans and collectors, then stores are stuck with irrelevant action figures when the next movie pops up. Witness the large number of toys from Rogue One still lingering in stores even though that film is completely old hat now.
>

Barely time? We used to get a few waves of different toys per year, even when new movies weren't being produced yearly. Last August stores put Force Awakens toys on clearance, after two years on the shelves (and there are still Force Awakens toys, despite 2 movies after it having happened) Hasbro is over-representing some characters and not representing others at all. We hace a cantina-style scene in The Force Awakens, and random aliens abound. We have Saw Gerrerra represneted only in a low quality multipack. The problem is that they produced too many of the same toys. If every Target, Walmart, and TRU had 15 leftover Jyn Erso characters go on clearance (TRU cut the Black Series Jyn down to $3 and still has 30+ left)then obviously the people who wanted them already had them.

> I do get the sense that Disney is pushing all the old characters out the door. Harrison Ford always wanted Han Solo to die, of course, but there's no way to address Carrie Fisher's death without either killing Leia off-screen or having her continue to pull the strings off-screen until she fades away into obscurity. In the meantime, there are new actors performing Chewbacca and R2-D2, characters who are sustainable indefinitely since you can just keep putting somebody new into the suit. Eventually, somebody will have to take up the mantle for C-3PO, and the character will never sound the same again.
>

At least Peter Mayhew was still the official Chewbacca Consultant. We're at the point though that we probably have enough recorded C3PO dialogue to digitally recreate almost any line.

> In some ways, it's like what's been happening for a while with Sesame Street and the Muppets. When principal performers have passed away or retired or get fired, puppets are sometimes retired as well, or reduced to background appearances with non-speaking roles, or are recast. Usually, the results of recasting are utterly disastrous. Performers can attempt to emulate the voice characterizations created by Jim Henson or Richard Hunt or Carrol Spinney but it's never the same.
>
> The reality, though, is that this is the only way to continue telling stories with these characters. When it comes to people who perform characters without costumes or puppetry or make-up, that actor's face IS the character. Killing off Luke Skywalker in a controlled, deliberate manner is probably better for storyline purposes than what happened with Carrie Fisher, where they basically went, "Well, crap, now what do we do?" The sad truth is that Hamill and Fisher and Ford aged considerably since they were first cast in those roles and they could not continue playing them indefinitely. We're actually very lucky that we got them briefly for a reprise.
>
> Ultimately, though, Disney is a corporation and they have to think about what's marketable. Younger actors in new roles like Daisy Ridley and John Boyega are more sustainable over the long-term (though Ridley has said she's getting out of Star Wars after Episode IX). I wonder if they realize, though, that fans just don't seem to be as interested in all-new characters. Everything I've observed about consumer buying habits suggests that toys of original trilogy characters still sell the best. As long as they're still pumping out new movies every year, though, the merchandising train is going to focus only on the newer characters. Which is a shame.
>

Everyone snapped up Rey, older Luke, and older Han. For the longest time Rey was impossible to find.

>
> Zob (doesn't own any toys of Rey or Finn)

I was considering trying to find a good quality Stormtrooper Finn, but the ones they made weren't very good. I couldn't just have a bloodied up Stormtrooper.

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:41:01 PM UTC-8, Zobovor (the Man with All the Toys) wrote:
> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:50:24 PM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:
>
> > DON'T READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI
>
> Keeping your spoiler space intact, but I think that Google tends to compress a bunch of carriage returns so I figure I'll just write a big, long paragraph to serve as functional spoiler space. Though, I tend to think that anybody who would be worried about getting he new Star Wars film spoiled for them would have seen it already, but of course there are people who will always complain regardless. I will say, though, that I've been spoiled so many times just by looking up basic information (like, say, the name of an actor from The Walking Dead or Breaking Bad) because people seem to have this need to spread spoilers around like they were peanut butter over toasted bread.

Google also compresses the highlighted text sometimes, so I will add a random paragraph of rambling. Someone at work got me sick, so I haven't been able to get some rest and detach from work like I had wanted. People who go to work sick, and have jobs where they could work from home, are horrible people who should be beaten to within an inch of their lives, and then forced to come to work on crutches.

> > People feel like Luke was pushed aside to make room for new action
> > figures just like old Optimus was.
>
> Even before George Lucas sold off Star Wars, he envisioned a scenario in which an aged Mark Hamill served in the role of the wise, old mentor, passing down his teachings to the next generation of Jedi. So, at least Disney got that much right.

I'm not sure they had a choice anyway -- the original cast is all middle aged to old, and really not believable in the action film roles for long periods. Harrison Ford has a lot more spring in his step than you would expect for a man of his age, but he's in his 70s.

Unless the new Star Wars was going to be a lot of people standing around talking, they needed a new cast. (And, Leia did move to a stand around and talk role, which made sense for her character)

> The problem, as I see it, is not one of too many action figures, but rather not enough. I've said this before, but with Disney cranking out a new Star Wars film every single year like clockwork, there's barely time for Hasbro to produce action figures of the main characters, and only the main characters, before moving right on to the next movie. If the characters from a film don't resonate with fans and collectors, then stores are stuck with irrelevant action figures when the next movie pops up. Witness the large number of toys from Rogue One still lingering in stores even though that film is completely old hat now.

Rogue One action figures have the problem of representing dead people, in a fairly closed little timeline. That's fine if you are a collector, but it has to make it harder for the kids to play with them, unless they want to have the Rebels confront their ghosts...

> I do get the sense that Disney is pushing all the old characters out the door. Harrison Ford always wanted Han Solo to die, of course, but there's no way to address Carrie Fisher's death without either killing Leia off-screen or having her continue to pull the strings off-screen until she fades away into obscurity.

I think the right way to do Leia at this point would be to have her mostly offscreen giving advice, as Poe takes a larger leadership role, before discovering that she's been dead for a while, and that it's just been C-3PO muttering meaningless platitudes.

I am surprised that they killed off Luke in this movie though. It means the next one has none of the big three in it.

But, they also wrapped up the story thematically, so I don't really see a need for a third movie in this trilogy. We just saw the Resistance get beaten down to almost nothing, and we saw how they inspired others so the spark would survive, so why do we need to see more?

> In the meantime, there are new actors performing Chewbacca and R2-D2, characters who are sustainable indefinitely since you can just keep putting somebody new into the suit. Eventually, somebody will have to take up the mantle for C-3PO, and the character will never sound the same again.

I am surprised that we didn't end up with a fat C-3PO with new reinforced armor or something. Anthony Daniels still fits in that suit, and that's kind of amazing.

> In some ways, it's like what's been happening for a while with Sesame Street and the Muppets. When principal performers have passed away or retired or get fired, puppets are sometimes retired as well, or reduced to background appearances with non-speaking roles, or are recast. Usually, the results of recasting are utterly disastrous.

If they were to recast Leia with Judi Dench, I would be perfectly fine with the choice. Not that she looks anything like Carrie Fischer, but just because Judi Dench is awesome in everything, and would carry the scene anyway.

They could also recast Kermit the Frog with Judi Dench.

> Ultimately, though, Disney is a corporation and they have to think about what's marketable. Younger actors in new roles like Daisy Ridley and John Boyega are more sustainable over the long-term (though Ridley has said she's getting out of Star Wars after Episode IX). I wonder if they realize, though, that fans just don't seem to be as interested in all-new characters. Everything I've observed about consumer buying habits suggests that toys of original trilogy characters still sell the best.

The new movies lacked a lot of the depth of the first ones. I didn't feel like I had any sense of any of the characters after TFA, and TLJ was only marginally better in that respect.

Rose. I really liked Rose. (And crazy old man Luke, but that's an old character) The rest just seemed like plot points.

Rose should not have kissed Finn. Or saved him. He should have just been vaporized by the cannon.

Ok, but now, onto more important things than Star Wars... Doctor Who! It's on TV, so if you cared you watched it already, so we don't need all that much spoiler space, so this paragraph is all you get.

The first Doctor was great, but his misogyny was a bit over the top.

I am disappointed that River Song didn't make an appearance as part of the Testament. Moffat was repeating himself with Bill, Claire and Nardole getting the same "recorded for all time" ending as the Doctor gave River back in the Library, but let's just call that an homage or a callback. Except the Testament do it for everyone, freezing time for an instant before that persons death. So they should have had a copy of River.

The Doctor has been mourning River all season -- it's part of why he reassembled Nardole before the last Christmas special -- and losing his wife is a large part of why he doesn't want to go on, as much as losing Bill was. The Doctor has been fighting his regeneration for most of the season, long before Bill died. River should have been there, no matter how crowded it made that scene.

And when the Doctor regenerated, and the ring fell from his-now-her finger, that was his wedding ring. And that was kind of heartbreaking.

Honestly, I could have lived without Claire popping up again.

[Zobovor (the Man with All the Toys)]

On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 7:26:39 PM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:

> But for whatever reason, Disney seems to want to sideline them, too!
> Chewie got a little screen time, but R2-D2 and C-3PO did absolutely
> nothing. I feel like they created BB-8 to replace them and I have no
> idea why they needed to be replaced.

The thing is, these are really iconic, recognizable characters who are known worldwide. It would be immensely foolish for Disney to dump them and forget about them. It would be like acquiring Marvel but then killing off all the existing superheroes in favor of some new ones that they invented last year.

I figured R2-D2 was asleep for most of The Force Awakens because they didn't want him to upstage BB-8, but then he snoozed through most of The Last Jedi, too. He's turned into the grandpa droid who just takes naps on the La-Z-Boy all afternoon. BB-8 is cute, but he lacks star power.

> Yeah, the merchandising really tells the truth about it all, doesn't it?
> I go into Wal-Mart looking for the (very few) figures I want (I'm never
> going to find that Imperial Royal Guard) and I find a wall of Jyn Ersos.

Jyn who?


Zob (okay, I actually know who she is... but I can't name the actress who played her)

[Travoltron]

The most dumbfounding thing about all this that I've learned is that
they had absolutely no plan in place for this new trilogy. Like, what
you saw onscreen about the characters in episode 7 was pretty much all
that was written. They never planned out who or what Snoke was, who
Rey's parents were, how Maz Kanata got Luke's old lightsaber, any of it.
They never plotted out anything about episode 8 or 9. They were just
going to hand eps 8 & 9 to two different dudes and go, "here, do whatever."

This is the result of that. They changed course, and now JJ Abrams is
coming back for episode 9. Rumors are swirling that he may undo (retcon)
some of the stuff from ep 8. It's going to be difficult to continue from
where ep 8 left off from a writing perspective due to the finality of it
all.

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

I hate JJ Abrams directing style. Everything he makes is copying something he's seen before. I'm glad Rian Johnson took a dump all over JJ's stupid "everything is a mystery" story style, and did something new. Yes, it's going to be hard to continue, but we gave Rey some basis for being able to do Jedi stuff, and we got rid of the way too many side stories that weren't interesting. Kylo Ren isn't an emo teen the whole movie despite looking 45.

With that said, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would have liked to see some of the books made into the movies. I'm sure somehow Disney didn't bother to get the rights to those, which is why they announced the books weren't canon.

Did anyone else want the "Master code breaker" in Canto Bight to be Lando? Even if only for those few seconds, that would have been some cameo.

[David Connell]

On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 9:15:54 AM UTC-5, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:

> Did anyone else want the "Master code breaker" in Canto Bight to be Lando? Even if only for those few seconds, that would have been some cameo.

Oh, only EVERYONE!!

[Travoltron]

I'd rather Lando not appear in these new movies because they're just
gonna kill him.

[Travoltron]

On 12/29/2017 6:15 AM, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:
> I hate JJ Abrams directing style.

I don't disagree. He's extremely overrated. Just like Michael Bay, he
gets credited for resurrecting dead franchises that weren't actually
dead. Nothing original at all.

It feels like people are desperately hungering for a new Spielberg-level
talent. The media has jumped the gun numerous times and proclaimed
whatever flash-in-the-pan of the hour as "The Next Spielberg".

I'm not really sure it's even possible to make the kind of movies
Spielberg and George Lucas used to make anymore in the current political
and economic climate. Everything has to be marketed to both sexes and
all age groups (Target: PG-13), and it has to be shown in every country
all over the world to make maximum profit, so it has to make sure it
doesn't offend ANYONE.

[Zobovor (the Man with All the Toys)]

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 12:26:50 PM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:

> Everything has to be marketed to both sexes and all age groups (Target:
> PG-13), and it has to be shown in every country all over the world to make
> maximum profit, so it has to make sure it doesn't offend ANYONE.

Well, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Different countries are at different phases of sociological development, and sometimes I think America is behind the curve. I watch films now like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and its treatment of other cultures is just offensive in the extreme. The fact that some countries wouldn't let them visit to film the movie because they were so appalled by the script should have been a tip-off right there, but apparently not.

I agree that sometimes the pendulum swings way too far in the other direction. Setting a huge chunk of Age of Extinction in China just because they knew it would make the international audiences happy was a clinical marketing move that didn't serve the script or the story. They did it to sell movie tickets when the film was released in that country.

I honestly think it all goes back to my theory about a general lack of craftsmanship today. Lucas and Spielberg were pioneers in their field, and they knew the business of making films inside and out... and when they realized there was no way to tell the story they wanted to tell, they invented new technology to make it happen. There's almost no reason to innovate like that now. Literally anything you can conceive of can be brought to life on the silver screen with CGI. It's the automatic, default solution for everything now and it's boring. Filmmakers now don't even worry about things like lighting, or weather, or capturing a good performance, because they think everything can be fixed in post-production.

I do appreciate how much J.J. Abrams likes to fall back on established practical effects rather than trying to CGI the hell out of everything.


Zob (five days after Christmas and the kids are going stir crazy... "Mom and Dad can hardly wait for school to start again" is the most accurate song lyric in existence)

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

I mainly don't like how JJ Abrams plagiarizes from the same franchise he's already in. He recycled the second Star Trek movie to make....the second Star Trek movie, only he flopped a few minor details to make things make even less sense.

The Force Awakens had the empire, only it wasn't the empire, it was The First Order. But what is The First Order? Nobody really knows because he's not telling us shit. We have StarKiller Base. It's a new Death Star, but it's not. We have a new Emperor, wait, he's a Supreme Leader. We have a orphan on a desert planet who's secretly a super powerful Jedi. It's almost like he didn't have license to use actual Star Trek themes, so he made a knock off movie, tweaking things slightly to give us the same damn story.

I don't care if there are more girls, I don't care about the cute thing of the week. I want more new story. JJ Abrams doesn't do new story. He takes an old story and does it again. Cheaply. The enterprise contained a brewery. Instead of using his unlimited budget to make an engine room, they filmed in a brewery. Because he thought pipes looked all technological. They had to edit out brick walls between the theater release and the DVD release, because people complained about brick walls in a spaceship.

Rian Johnson managed to have cute stuff and a new species and managed to make Porgs not too intrusive. There were some bad parts, but they weren't overpowering. It wasn't the BB8 show, or Ewok Adventure.

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 9:14:54 PM UTC-8, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:
> I mainly don't like how JJ Abrams plagiarizes from the same franchise he's already in. He recycled the second Star Trek movie to make....the second Star Trek movie, only he flopped a few minor details to make things make even less sense.
>
> The Force Awakens had the empire, only it wasn't the empire, it was The First Order. But what is The First Order? Nobody really knows because he's not telling us shit.

The First Order is one of the Imperial Remnants -- parts of the Imperial force that headed out of the Republic area to regroup. They are making a play again for the Republic. This is explained, and obvious.

The connection to Snoke is not explained. He apparently was in the outer-rim/uncharted-territory for a while, and was able to take over when he met them. But the first order itself is straightforward.

Someone's going to be in charge... why not Zoidberg? Or Snoke?

> We have StarKiller Base. It's a new Death Star, but it's not. We have a new Emperor, wait, he's a Supreme Leader. We have a orphan on a desert planet who's secretly a super powerful Jedi.

All of this is fair criticism. But the First Order is explained as well as it needs to be.

> Rian Johnson managed to have cute stuff and a new species and managed to make Porgs not too intrusive. There were some bad parts, but they weren't overpowering. It wasn't the BB8 show, or Ewok Adventure.

There was an awful lot of BB-8 saving the day, with adventures that happened mostly offscreen and only concluded onscreen. It's probably the thing I disliked most about The Last Jedi.

It was a better movie that The Force Awakens, but BB-8 kind of annoys me in it.

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 12:25:37 PM UTC-8, Zobovor (the Man with All the Toys) wrote:
> On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 12:26:50 PM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:
>
> > Everything has to be marketed to both sexes and all age groups (Target:
> > PG-13), and it has to be shown in every country all over the world to make
> > maximum profit, so it has to make sure it doesn't offend ANYONE.
>
> Well, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Different countries are at different phases of sociological development, and sometimes I think America is behind the curve.

The US is an odd mixture of oversensitive and perfectly happy to be offensive. We take offense at things without considering the context.

"Look Who's Back", a hysterical German comedy (spoiler: Hitler is back, but people mistake him for a performance artist in very bad taste) would never be released in the US because each scene is incredibly offensive. It's a pretty great movie, other than the very moralizing ending (spoiler: the movie is not pro-Hitler in the end, and that puts the rest of the movie into a less offensive context)

> I watch films now like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and its treatment of other cultures is just offensive in the extreme. The fact that some countries wouldn't let them visit to film the movie because they were so appalled by the script should have been a tip-off right there, but apparently not.

Yeah. I don't have a lot of good things to say about people who cry that this or that isn't PC, but that movie is a bit racist as fuck, and doesn't have anything to say about the racism to make it worth while. Indiana Jones is based on 1940s serials, and the 1940s weren't the most enlightened time, but there's no reason to just copy the racism.

> I agree that sometimes the pendulum swings way too far in the other direction. Setting a huge chunk of Age of Extinction in China just because they knew it would make the international audiences happy was a clinical marketing move that didn't serve the script or the story. They did it to sell movie tickets when the film was released in that country.

The recent Godzilla movie had entirely different scenes for the Chinese audience, while the US got the Chinese part as a minor subplot. That might be a really good way to go.

> I honestly think it all goes back to my theory about a general lack of craftsmanship today. Lucas and Spielberg were pioneers in their field, and they knew the business of making films inside and out... and when they realized there was no way to tell the story they wanted to tell, they invented new technology to make it happen. There's almost no reason to innovate like that now. Literally anything you can conceive of can be brought to life on the silver screen with CGI. It's the automatic, default solution for everything now and it's boring. Filmmakers now don't even worry about things like lighting, or weather, or capturing a good performance, because they think everything can be fixed in post-production.

Fun Fact: The Porgs exist because the island they filmed on was covered with puffins. They decided it would be easier to cover the puffins with strange new creatures in CGI than to digitally remove them or shoo them away.

They then added fun porg scenes, since they had porgs.

> I do appreciate how much J.J. Abrams likes to fall back on established practical effects rather than trying to CGI the hell out of everything.

I don't hate JJ Abrams.

I think he doesn't get Star Trek at all though, and The Force Awakens was trying too hard to just not be the prequels. A lot of his other work was great -- Fringe, Regarding Henry, Westworld... I even like his take on Mission Impossible (although, when Tom Cruise explained to his wife or girlfriend or whatever that he worked for the IMF, she should have stared at him vacantly and replied "International Monetary Fund?")

I am hopeful for Episode IX. His Star Trek movies have been way more Star Wars than Star Trek, so he should be the right person, if he's willing to take risks with it. He can't do another Return of the Jedi, can he?

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 4:25:03 AM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> I am hopeful for Episode IX. His Star Trek movies have been way more Star Wars than Star Trek, so he should be the right person, if he's willing to take risks with it. He can't do another Return of the Jedi, can he?

I think Rian Johnson got rid of Snoke specifically so Abrams couldn't do another Return of the Jedi.

[Travoltron]

I'm thinking more about recent situations... mostly with the Chinese, I
guess.

So we had that godawful Mummy movie made by one of the Bayformers hacks
where they had to specify that the Mummy wasn't an undead creature
because the Chinese are offended by ghosts.

Doctor Strange changed a character that should have been a Tibetan man
into a white woman because China might get mad if they see a Tibetan.

Somebody remade Red Dawn a few years back except changed it to the
Chinese invading America. China got mad and the studio spent a fortune
in CGI changing it in post into North Korea.

[Zobovor (the Man with All the Toys)]

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 12:07:05 PM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:

> I'm thinking more about recent situations... mostly with the Chinese, I
> guess.

There are over a billion people living in China. That's a lot of movie tickets.

Really, though, where does it end? You always run the risk of offending somebody somewhere, because no two people, or cultures, are alike. China is the most populous nation on the planet, so it makes sense to keep them happy. What about India or Indonesia? I don't even know enough about their cultures to know what offends them and what doesn't. I'm sure it's not consistent across the country, though. Hell, we try so hard not to offend our fellow Americans, but we're so damn touchy about just about every subject (Confederate flags and statues, homosexuality, types of cheese, etc.) that it's impossible to keep everybody happy. (Keep your damn Muenster out of my sandwiches, you crazy hippies!)

It's a little like the Transformers fandom, really. For years Hasbro was recycling G1 names and slapping them on random toys, and the G1 fans hated it while other people went, "Cyclonus is actually a great name for a helicopter, so shut up." Now the pendulum has swung in the other direction and they're doing these authentic tributes to G1, and half the fans on the message boards are all, "Great, another crappy nostalgia-fueled Geewun snorefest."


Zob (seriously, not a Muenster fan at all)

[Gustavo Wombat]

Travoltron <travo...@defender.uni> wrote:
> I'm thinking more about recent situations... mostly with the Chinese, I
> guess.
>

> Doctor Strange changed a character that should have been a Tibetan man
> into a white woman because China might get mad if they see a Tibetan.

It if was just a Tibet problem, they could have picked one of the regions
of China proper.

Doctor Strange’s backstory is also kind of offensively racist. White guy
goes off to Secret Oriental Village With Secret Oriental Knowledge And
Skills and becomes a better at all of this than the locals because he’s a
White Man. It dates back to when Oriental wasn’t an offensive word.

It’s also the same backstory as Iron Fist.

Changing up the Ancient One to make the whole society less specifically
Asian was a great idea. And, anytime you can cast Tilda Swinton in
anything, you should do it.

So, variety and trying to be less offensive. They also could have made Dr.
Strange Asian. Or cast Tilda Swinton in that role...

> Somebody remade Red Dawn a few years back except changed it to the
> Chinese invading America. China got mad and the studio spent a fortune
> in CGI changing it in post into North Korea.

Was anything lost other than money in that case? Was their a directors
vision that was sadly curtailed?



--
I wish I was a mole in the ground.

[Travoltron]

So what's the story with Disney Star Wars merchandise, Zob?

It looks to me like it isn't selling well, and I stumbled across an
article from a few weeks ago that seems to confirm that.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-fails-galactic-politics-101-1069536

What's selling and what isn't?

[Zobovor]

On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 7:14:07 PM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:

> So what's the story with Disney Star Wars merchandise, Zob? What's selling
> and what isn't?

It's funny. I actually ordered up on Star Wars action figures over the holidays, expecting interest in it to jump up with the release of The Last Jedi. What they sent me instead, though, was more Rogue One toys. I had actually marked down all that stuff to try to sell through it before Episode 8 hit, and now I'm swimming in Cassian Andor and Jyn Erso figures again. I give up.

New Star Wars LEGO sets continue to be very popular, but honestly that's about it. There's so little interest in the action figures right now. I think that there would be a lot of older fans and collectors who would gobble up new versions of the original trilogy characters, but we'll never know because they just don't produce those now. Even the Hero Mashers did reasonably well, and those were some of the silliest action figures I've ever seen.


Zob (just watched a YouTube video where Darth Vader is speaking with child Anakin Skywalker's voice... hilarious stuff)

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

Hero Mashers had more points of articulation. I only bought one TLK toy and I don't even know why I did it. The molds are simpler, the toys come with accessories they can't competently interact with, there's less cool poses for them, less playability.

Rogue One didn't have enough characters to support the toys, although I only saw the Jyn in imperial disguise figure on the shelf once.

[Travoltron]

It looks like it's official.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-18/-star-wars-toy-sales-fall-in-2017-as-movie-tie-fatigue-sets-in

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 10:45:24 AM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:

> It looks like it's official.

Yup. The article mentions the Cars 3 toys doing poorly and that's a huge understatement. My Walmart ordered tons of the stuff and it just sat there. Not just on the salesfloor, but in the back room bins. I started trying to mark it down to try to get rid of it during Christmas, and they just sent more to replace it. Because apparently the Walmart warehouse was jam-packed full of the stuff, too.

The first Cars movie did well because it was a novelty. The toys remained hugely successful even after the movie was no longer in theaters. There was a lot of anticipation built up around Cars 2, but the movie was one of Pixar's weakest installments. By the time Cars 3 finally rolled around, the first movie was over a decade old. Little kids who used to go crazy over Lightning McQueen are in high school and college now. It's not relevant to kids any longer.

Maybe it's the same way with Star Wars. Kids may think of Star Wars as those old-timey movies that their dad likes. Part of the problem may be that the films don't wow kids nowadays like they did in the 1970's. Outer space special effects used to look so cheesy. Star Wars was the first time they looked real and believable. Now, we have CGI in every damn movie. Any old film can do spaceships now, and they don't even have to pioneer new filmmaking techniques to do it. (Granted, there's more to classic Star Wars than just special effects. There's also great characterization. The new films don't really have that either, though. Seriously, is anybody really a fan of Baze Malbus?)

To me, at least, you have to either love the characters, or at least love the world that they inhabit, in order to want to go out and buy the toys. I'm aging out of the target audience for the new Star Wars movies, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter much, but the new movies don't grab me at all. I just can't be bothered to care about them. When a movie or a series makes me love it, though, I want to celebrate my love by owning physical representations of the characters. I have all four Ghostbusters 2016 action figures because that movie was a laugh riot. I couldn't not buy them.

Kids do watch a lot of YouTube and such, like the article says, but that's no different from how kids used to watch TV all the time. Back in the 1980's I watched TV all the time. Hours and hours every day (except on Sunday... there was never anything good on). They're saying that because of this, kids aren't into toys, but I don't think that's correct. They're just not buying toys of characters they don't care about.


Zob (my wife said that when Yoda showed up in The Last Jedi, she was half expecting him to break out into a refrain of "SEAGULLS! Stop it Now")

[Gustavo Wombat]

Zobovor <zobo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 10:45:24 AM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:
>
>> It looks like it's official.
>

> Maybe it's the same way with Star Wars. Kids may think of Star Wars as
> those old-timey movies that their dad likes. Part of the problem may be
> that the films don't wow kids nowadays like they did in the 1970's.
> Outer space special effects used to look so cheesy. Star Wars was the
> first time they looked real and believable. Now, we have CGI in every
> damn movie. Any old film can do spaceships now, and they don't even have
> to pioneer new filmmaking techniques to do it. (Granted, there's more to
> classic Star Wars than just special effects. There's also great
> characterization. The new films don't really have that either, though.
> Seriously, is anybody really a fan of Baze Malbus?)

You’re picking out the least memorable of all the Rogue One characters.
That’s like asking if anyone is really a fan of Lando’s copilot in RotJ.
No. The answer is no. Rogue One also had Jyn and the blind guy and the
funny murder bot. Murder bot could have been a break out character.

I think Rogue One had the challenge of every character dying. Kids can’t
have new adventures... everyone is dead. The movie also isn’t all that
rewatchable, but that didn’t stop the prequels.

TFA and TLJ... there are a lot of people who don’t like the diverse cast,
and who are hung up on that. I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that
Black Panther will not do great compared to other Marvel movies, for
similar reasons.

But TFA and TLJ also just have problems as movies. TFA being a tired
retread, and TLJ having gaping plot holes that desperately needed some
technobabble to cover up, and plot arcs being very loosely tied together.
Also, TLJ is all about failure, and that doesn’t really inspire kids to
play.

> To me, at least, you have to either love the characters, or at least love
> the world that they inhabit, in order to want to go out and buy the toys.
> I'm aging out of the target audience for the new Star Wars movies, so
> maybe my opinion doesn't matter much, but the new movies don't grab me at
> all. I just can't be bothered to care about them. When a movie or a
> series makes me love it, though, I want to celebrate my love by owning
> physical representations of the characters. I have all four Ghostbusters
> 2016 action figures because that movie was a laugh riot. I couldn't not buy them.

I thought the Ghostbusters reboot was almost as painfully unfunny as the
original.

> Kids do watch a lot of YouTube and such, like the article says, but
> that's no different from how kids used to watch TV all the time. Back in
> the 1980's I watched TV all the time. Hours and hours every day (except
> on Sunday... there was never anything good on). They're saying that
> because of this, kids aren't into toys, but I don't think that's correct.
> They're just not buying toys of characters they don't care about.

Are there any breakout action figure lines right now? I can’t think of any.

> Zob (my wife said that when Yoda showed up in The Last Jedi, she was half
> expecting him to break out into a refrain of "SEAGULLS! Stop it Now")

I hope for a Yoda doll that has that song built in...

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 4:13:44 AM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> Zobovor <zobo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 10:45:24 AM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:
> >
> >> It looks like it's official.
> >
>
> > Maybe it's the same way with Star Wars. Kids may think of Star Wars as
> > those old-timey movies that their dad likes. Part of the problem may be
> > that the films don't wow kids nowadays like they did in the 1970's.
> > Outer space special effects used to look so cheesy. Star Wars was the
> > first time they looked real and believable. Now, we have CGI in every
> > damn movie. Any old film can do spaceships now, and they don't even have
> > to pioneer new filmmaking techniques to do it. (Granted, there's more to
> > classic Star Wars than just special effects. There's also great
> > characterization. The new films don't really have that either, though.
> > Seriously, is anybody really a fan of Baze Malbus?)
>
> You’re picking out the least memorable of all the Rogue One characters.
> That’s like asking if anyone is really a fan of Lando’s copilot in RotJ.
> No. The answer is no. Rogue One also had Jyn and the blind guy and the
> funny murder bot. Murder bot could have been a break out character.
>

You don't like Nien Numb? We got highly detailed and articulated toys of him! I'm still convinced the toy sales took a nosedive shortly after the TFA toys limited articulation on 905 of the line, the black series completely changed scale as to not fit in with anything else, and the only to-scale black series figures were Wal-mart exclusives, and only one set per year. Wal-mart is choking on old-Han and old-Leia figures to the point they didn't have any space for the TLK figures. Plus, who wants old han when we're just going to be reminded how he was put in the movie to die? As for old-Leia, female characters statistically don't sell as well.

> I think Rogue One had the challenge of every character dying. Kids can’t
> have new adventures... everyone is dead. The movie also isn’t all that
> rewatchable, but that didn’t stop the prequels.
>

Murderbot and blind-guy outshine every cast member of TFA.

> TFA and TLJ... there are a lot of people who don’t like the diverse cast,
> and who are hung up on that. I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that
> Black Panther will not do great compared to other Marvel movies, for
> similar reasons.
>

All of the rebellion senior staff was female. I'm all for strong female roles, but they went Wonder-Woman with is. Sit down dearie the women are talking. I understand bad communication was a major point for this movie, but it's just not handled well.

> But TFA and TLJ also just have problems as movies. TFA being a tired
> retread, and TLJ having gaping plot holes that desperately needed some
> technobabble to cover up, and plot arcs being very loosely tied together.
> Also, TLJ is all about failure, and that doesn’t really inspire kids to
> play.
>

The real problem is the technobabble was rushed, and bad. There are simple technobabble rescripting that could have fixed 70% of TLJ. "stealth mode" was stupid. The fact that anything can leave the rebel fleet (Resistance is stupid, Congrats JJ Abrams for one more stupid thing) at will, and sneak onto the enemy fleet after a rousing game at the casino, is just baffling. If ships can fly away, why dont they all fly away? If you have a fleet chasing another fleet, why wouldn't you be scanning for small ships? If you have a scanner that can just locate stealth mode ships, why wouldn't it be scanning all the time?

> > To me, at least, you have to either love the characters, or at least love
> > the world that they inhabit, in order to want to go out and buy the toys.
> > I'm aging out of the target audience for the new Star Wars movies, so
> > maybe my opinion doesn't matter much, but the new movies don't grab me at
> > all. I just can't be bothered to care about them. When a movie or a
> > series makes me love it, though, I want to celebrate my love by owning
> > physical representations of the characters. I have all four Ghostbusters
> > 2016 action figures because that movie was a laugh riot. I couldn't not buy them.
>
> I thought the Ghostbusters reboot was almost as painfully unfunny as the
> original.
>

The new Ghostbusters was terrible. the classis was great. Chris Hemsworth ruined the new movie for me. Most of his lines were just badly placed stand-up, and his whole role was just awful.

[Zobovor]

On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 3:13:44 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

>> Seriously, is anybody really a fan of Baze Malbus?)
>
> You’re picking out the least memorable of all the Rogue One characters.

I could remember anybody else's names!

> Rogue One also had Jyn and the blind guy and the funny murder bot. Murder
> bot could have been a break out character.

I will admit that K-2SO was my favorite character. But, I'm biased in favor of robots anyway.

> TFA and TLJ... there are a lot of people who don’t like the diverse cast,
> and who are hung up on that. I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that
> Black Panther will not do great compared to other Marvel movies, for
> similar reasons.

They just can't do movies entirely populated by white guys. They did that for many years (not just Star Wars, but films in general) and it's tiring. They haven't really figured out how to handle diversity, though. Sometimes it feels like Captain Planet or Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers where they just picked one jellybean of each flavor. I don't really know what would feel like a natural solution.

> But TFA and TLJ also just have problems as movies. TFA being a tired
> retread, and TLJ having gaping plot holes that desperately needed some
> technobabble to cover up, and plot arcs being very loosely tied together.
> Also, TLJ is all about failure, and that doesn’t really inspire kids to
> play.

Well, The Empire Strikes Back is a big failure story, too. Luke fails to complete his training, and fails against his duel in Darth Vader. Lando fails to be a decent friend, and Han fails to continue breathing.

> I thought the Ghostbusters reboot was almost as painfully unfunny as the
> original.

The original is funny in a cerebral kind of way. There are lines where you go, "Oh, okay, I get it now. That was a joke." The reboot actually made me laugh. So, there's that.

> Are there any breakout action figure lines right now? I can’t think of any.

Power of the Primes seems to be one of the best-selling lines out there right now, honestly. No stores seem to be able to keep it in stock.


Zob (saw a new figure of Sgt. Slaughter in the new retro wrestling assortment!)

[Zobovor]

On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 8:36:48 AM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:

> The new Ghostbusters was terrible. the classis was great. Chris Hemsworth
> ruined the new movie for me. Most of his lines were just badly placed stand-
> up, and his whole role was just awful.

His role was structured to be similar to the ditzy quality of Janine Melnitz. So, he's a male bimbo. You really found nothing about him to be funny? The whole bit with his glasses not having lenses? The "my cat" routine?

"There's a goat on the loose"? There's nothing not funny about goats.

Even the tagline "Ghostbusters: Answer the Call" is funny because it's a meta-reference to the "Who You Gonna Call?" of the original film, but they're also imploring Kevin to just pick up the damn phone already.

I don't get you people.


Zob (seriously)

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 10:39:01 AM UTC-6, Zobovor wrote:
> On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 8:36:48 AM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:
>

> > The new Ghostbusters was terrible. the classics was great. Chris Hemsworth

> > ruined the new movie for me. Most of his lines were just badly placed stand-
> > up, and his whole role was just awful.
>
> His role was structured to be similar to the ditzy quality of Janine Melnitz. So, he's a male bimbo. You really found nothing about him to be funny? The whole bit with his glasses not having lenses? The "my cat" routine?
>

If it were a one-liner then fine, it's a joke, it wasn't funny but let's move on. But no, they had to sit and dissect every not-funny joke they could shoehorn in. None of it flowed, it just interrupted what could have been a good movie.

Also, Janine was never that ditzy. She didn't get enough lines. The lines she did get were believable as coming from a real human. The new movie, I'm wondering the whole time how he hasn't accidentally killed himself just walking down a street by now.

> "There's a goat on the loose"? There's nothing not funny about goats.
>

Yeah....no...

[Gustavo Wombat]

If I collected Star Wars toys, Old Han and Old Leia would be the first ones
I would buy.

>> But TFA and TLJ also just have problems as movies. TFA being a tired
>> retread, and TLJ having gaping plot holes that desperately needed some
>> technobabble to cover up, and plot arcs being very loosely tied together.
>> Also, TLJ is all about failure, and that doesn’t really inspire kids to
>> play.
>>
>
> The real problem is the technobabble was rushed, and bad. There are
> simple technobabble rescripting that could have fixed 70% of TLJ.
> "stealth mode" was stupid. The fact that anything can leave the rebel
> fleet (Resistance is stupid, Congrats JJ Abrams for one more stupid
> thing) at will, and sneak onto the enemy fleet after a rousing game at
> the casino, is just baffling. If ships can fly away, why dont they all
> fly away? If you have a fleet chasing another fleet, why wouldn't you be
> scanning for small ships? If you have a scanner that can just locate
> stealth mode ships, why wouldn't it be scanning all the time?

The First Order can apparently track things through hyperspace now, so
nothing prevented anyone from jumping (I would have preferred a spy robot
on one of the ships, transmitting the new location to a new technology that
changes everything, and which has to be weirdly limited as a prototype so
it can only track one ship)

Alternately, change the space.

“Head into the dark matter nebula, it will scramble their scanners!”
“The heavy ships in our fleet won’t be able to move fast with that dark
matter, or jump to light speed”
“Neither will theirs, and theirs are heavier, they’ll be slowed more”

Some astrophysicists will get angry, and walk out because that’s not how
dark matter works, but it creates the same “everyone trudging along slowly,
but small ships can come and go” thing. (By the way, does everyone agree
that was meant to be WW1 trench warfare in space?)

And the escaping ships have to stay in the shadow of the larger resistance
ships.

Add a “hunt down the traitor droid” subplot (it was the dark blue one that
looked like BB-8 with a flat head that the camera focused on right after
the first order jumped in following them.)

This also eliminates the “why not just jump in front of the Resistance
ships and catch them in a pincher movement?” issue.

[Gustavo Wombat]

Zobovor <zobo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 3:13:44 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the
> Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
>>> Seriously, is anybody really a fan of Baze Malbus?)
>>
>> You’re picking out the least memorable of all the Rogue One characters.
>
> I could remember anybody else's names!
>
>> Rogue One also had Jyn and the blind guy and the funny murder bot. Murder
>> bot could have been a break out character.
>
> I will admit that K-2SO was my favorite character. But, I'm biased in
> favor of robots anyway.
>
>> TFA and TLJ... there are a lot of people who don’t like the diverse cast,
>> and who are hung up on that. I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that
>> Black Panther will not do great compared to other Marvel movies, for
>> similar reasons.
>
> They just can't do movies entirely populated by white guys. They did
> that for many years (not just Star Wars, but films in general) and it's
> tiring. They haven't really figured out how to handle diversity, though.
> Sometimes it feels like Captain Planet or Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
> where they just picked one jellybean of each flavor. I don't really know
> what would feel like a natural solution.

It’s a fantasy and people want to feel like they could be there. A lot of
people cannot get past race or gender, and that’s a real thing, and may or
may not be fine. If you’re a white male, the only major player in the movie
that you have is... Kylo Ren. Maybe Poe if you don’t recognize your
Hispanics or don’t care that much.

I’m all for increased representation, but there should be a little white
male representation as well. For the toys. Until people get better at this
empathy thing.

If representation is important for Asian women, it’s important for white
men too. (I liked Rose a lot, except for her fondness for Finn... we all
know there is only Poe for Finn. Actually, I kind of hate Finn and wanted
his heroic run down the barrel of the first order gun to end with the gun
firing and him being evaporated, just one more act of failure)

>> But TFA and TLJ also just have problems as movies. TFA being a tired
>> retread, and TLJ having gaping plot holes that desperately needed some
>> technobabble to cover up, and plot arcs being very loosely tied together.
>> Also, TLJ is all about failure, and that doesn’t really inspire kids to
>> play.
>
> Well, The Empire Strikes Back is a big failure story, too. Luke fails to
> complete his training, and fails against his duel in Darth Vader. Lando
> fails to be a decent friend, and Han fails to continue breathing.

Lando turns out to save the day in the end, and the Rebels escape to fight
another day. There are lots of personal losses and setbacks, but nothing as
devastating as the Resistance now fitting into the Millennium Falcon.

Luke charges off to save his friends, and most of them make it out. A
partial success.

>> I thought the Ghostbusters reboot was almost as painfully unfunny as the
>> original.
>
> The original is funny in a cerebral kind of way. There are lines where
> you go, "Oh, okay, I get it now. That was a joke." The reboot actually
> made me laugh. So, there's that.
>
>> Are there any breakout action figure lines right now? I can’t think of any.
>
> Power of the Primes seems to be one of the best-selling lines out there
> right now, honestly. No stores seem to be able to keep it in stock.

Huh.

[banzait...@gmail.com]

> Power of the Primes seems to be one of the best-selling lines out there
> right now, honestly. No stores seem to be able to keep it in stock.

I agree. I can never find these figures in the store. I am always greeted with empty shelves. It's like food shopping in Venezuela.

-Banzaitron

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

Most of the retailers here still have the clearance TR pegs up, I don't think PotP is shipping in full force yet. though TR never sat around on shelves long, except for Broadside.

[No One In Particular]

On 1/20/2018 10:33 AM, Zobovor wrote:

>
> They just can't do movies entirely populated by white guys. They did that for many years (not just Star Wars,
>but films in general) and it's tiring. They haven't really figured out how to handle diversity, though. Sometimes
>it feels like Captain Planet or Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers where they just picked one jellybean of each flavor.
>I don't really know what would feel like a natural solution.
>

>

> Zob (saw a new figure of Sgt. Slaughter in the new retro wrestling assortment!)
>

As with so many other things, Hollywood sees the trend of the moment
(greater diversity in general media) and tries to capitalize on it,
usually completely misunderstanding the whole point.

Unlike so many seem to, I didn't hate Rose. I just don't feel like she
really belonged in the movie. They didn't really do anything important
with either her or Finn-the entire side trip to Space Las Vegas was
pointless, and the Finn/Rose romance just didn't work for me. But then,
I don't really see why there always *has* to be some kind of tedious
romance in every movie. Maybe that's just me though.

Brian

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

Rose was a good character with a pointless story. She had a good set-up that just went nowhere. The romance only made it worse.

The BB-9e unit had huge toy campaign and marketed as cool, when all it did was end Rose and Finn's break-in attempt.

[Zobovor]

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 7:58:08 PM UTC-7, No One In Particular wrote:

> As with so many other things, Hollywood sees the trend of the moment
> (greater diversity in general media) and tries to capitalize on it,
> usually completely misunderstanding the whole point.

No, I'm all for diversity. Part of the point of entertainment like this is escapism, to pretend that you're the dashing hero on screen who beats the bad guys and wins the day. The problem is, there's traditionally been a strong disconnect between the fantasy and the audience, unless you're a young white male. A young black male can't really watch the original Star Wars films and get a sense that he could ever be the action hero. (Lando Calrissian is the only prominent African-American character, and he's arguably a villain in his first appearance.)

So, I totally get the very real need for new Star Wars characters like Rey and Finn. The problem is when the diversity feels like it's too carefully-constructed. Sometimes it's organic and natural, and sometimes it feels like they were working off a master checklist of their top six demographic races.

And, really, there are unspoken limitations. Just for example, there's always a token Asian character, but I don't think I've ever seen an instance where he's the main character; i.e., the one who is unkillable, the one who gets the girl, etc. No, that role is almost exclusively reserved for the white guy. We still have a long way to go.

> Unlike so many seem to, I didn't hate Rose. I just don't feel like she
> really belonged in the movie. They didn't really do anything important
> with either her or Finn-the entire side trip to Space Las Vegas was
> pointless, and the Finn/Rose romance just didn't work for me. But then,
> I don't really see why there always *has* to be some kind of tedious
> romance in every movie. Maybe that's just me though.

She appeals to the Asian demographic. That was her main role in the film.

I didn't hate Rose, either. I would have to actually care about her in order to hate her. I almost feel like her love interest in Finn was specifically orchestrated by the writers to set up some kind of Rose-Finn-Rey triangle for Episode 9, mirroring the will-they-or-won't-they Luke-Leia-Han dynamic. But, since there is no far-reaching master plan for this trilogy (they're making it up as they go along), who knows?


Zob (hell, the prequel trilogy is better than what Disney is pumping out currently)

[Gustavo Wombat]

Zobovor <zobo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 7:58:08 PM UTC-7, No One In Particular wrote:
>
>> As with so many other things, Hollywood sees the trend of the moment
>> (greater diversity in general media) and tries to capitalize on it,
>> usually completely misunderstanding the whole point.
>
> No, I'm all for diversity. Part of the point of entertainment like this
> is escapism, to pretend that you're the dashing hero on screen who beats
> the bad guys and wins the day. The problem is, there's traditionally
> been a strong disconnect between the fantasy and the audience, unless
> you're a young white male. A young black male can't really watch the
> original Star Wars films and get a sense that he could ever be the action
> hero. (Lando Calrissian is the only prominent African-American
> character, and he's arguably a villain in his first appearance.)

I don’t see Lando as a villain in Empire. He’s a flawed man, making the
best of a bad situation, and then realizing he has compromised too much.
He’s one of the best characters.

> So, I totally get the very real need for new Star Wars characters like
> Rey and Finn. The problem is when the diversity feels like it's too
> carefully-constructed. Sometimes it's organic and natural, and sometimes
> it feels like they were working off a master checklist of their top six demographic races.

I just don’t think Finn or Rey are good characters — They seem more like
props moved around the set for the story. Rey is apparently a crazy loner
on Jakku. Finn somehow is the only stormtrooper to see through his
brainwashing/training with no explanation of how or why him.

There are always going to be contrived bits in any movie, and I don’t mind
if it is the casting. Rey could have been a man, or an animated squirrel,
and it wouldn’t have made her a better character.

> And, really, there are unspoken limitations. Just for example, there's
> always a token Asian character, but I don't think I've ever seen an
> instance where he's the main character; i.e., the one who is unkillable,
> the one who gets the girl, etc. No, that role is almost exclusively
> reserved for the white guy. We still have a long way to go.

Bruce Lee must have had a role or two like that...

>> Unlike so many seem to, I didn't hate Rose. I just don't feel like she
>> really belonged in the movie. They didn't really do anything important
>> with either her or Finn-the entire side trip to Space Las Vegas was
>> pointless, and the Finn/Rose romance just didn't work for me. But then,
>> I don't really see why there always *has* to be some kind of tedious
>> romance in every movie. Maybe that's just me though.
>
> She appeals to the Asian demographic. That was her main role in the film.

Her main role was to show Finn that real people are suffering from this
war, and that he can’t just walk away from it — by having the power to do
something, he has a responsibility to do something. Which he also had to
learn in the Cantina scene in TFA. Because he doesn’t learn.

I really liked Rose, although she could have done without her sisters death
at the beginning, since she stopped grieving scary easily. I don’t like
Finn at all, and don’t see why anyone would have a romance with him.

> I didn't hate Rose, either. I would have to actually care about her in
> order to hate her. I almost feel like her love interest in Finn was
> specifically orchestrated by the writers to set up some kind of
> Rose-Finn-Rey triangle for Episode 9, mirroring the
> will-they-or-won't-they Luke-Leia-Han dynamic. But, since there is no
> far-reaching master plan for this trilogy (they're making it up as they
> go along), who knows?

Rey turns out to be gay, and we get Rey and Rose? That could work.

> Zob (hell, the prequel trilogy is better than what Disney is pumping out currently)

Each scene of the new movies are better than any scene of the prequels.
That said, TFA is my least favorite Star Wars movie — the movie as a whole
does nothing new.

TLJ did a lot of new and interesting stuff. It has its flaws, but it’s
probably my favorite non-original trilogy movie. I’ll have to see how it
holds up to rewatching. I don’t need the third movie in this trilogy though
— TLJ worked as an ending.

Also, remember, some of those Porgs were just added in post production to
hide the puffins that wouldn’t leave them alone.

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

But we still have Hero McWhiteguy as the Ace pilot, and his shortcoming is that nobody else can do as well as him so his miscellaneous coworkers end up getting killed.

> There are always going to be contrived bits in any movie, and I don’t mind
> if it is the casting. Rey could have been a man, or an animated squirrel,
> and it wouldn’t have made her a better character.
>

They're trying so hard not to make her a damsel in distress that she's doing so much completely separate from the rest of the story. It's almost like she could have been a separate movie, but then we'd need another space casino scene to fill time. She's a Disney Princess who refuses to let anyone else save her as she continues to put herself in danger. But we can't have Hero McWhiteguy look incompetent, so he has to be totally and completely elsewhere.

> > And, really, there are unspoken limitations. Just for example, there's
> > always a token Asian character, but I don't think I've ever seen an
> > instance where he's the main character; i.e., the one who is unkillable,
> > the one who gets the girl, etc. No, that role is almost exclusively
> > reserved for the white guy. We still have a long way to go.
>
> Bruce Lee must have had a role or two like that...

Jackie Chan....

>
> >> Unlike so many seem to, I didn't hate Rose. I just don't feel like she
> >> really belonged in the movie. They didn't really do anything important
> >> with either her or Finn-the entire side trip to Space Las Vegas was
> >> pointless, and the Finn/Rose romance just didn't work for me. But then,
> >> I don't really see why there always *has* to be some kind of tedious
> >> romance in every movie. Maybe that's just me though.
> >
> > She appeals to the Asian demographic. That was her main role in the film.
>
> Her main role was to show Finn that real people are suffering from this
> war, and that he can’t just walk away from it — by having the power to do
> something, he has a responsibility to do something. Which he also had to
> learn in the Cantina scene in TFA. Because he doesn’t learn.
>
> I really liked Rose, although she could have done without her sisters death
> at the beginning, since she stopped grieving scary easily. I don’t like
> Finn at all, and don’t see why anyone would have a romance with him.
>

Finn is kind of worthless. It was interesting how he defied brainwashing so easily, and then he could (not well but he could) wield a lightsaber. If Finn ended up force-sensitive, and giving in to his rage and the dark-side, then he might have been interesting. But no, he's just minorty-hire sidekick. I almost feel like they're taking him to a comedy relief role. Everything he tries fails, and they put him through a comical interaction where Rose knocks him out, then a comical scene where he can't move his body, followed by comical casino chase, followed by comical casino prison escape, followed by terrible command ship infiltration.

> > I didn't hate Rose, either. I would have to actually care about her in
> > order to hate her. I almost feel like her love interest in Finn was
> > specifically orchestrated by the writers to set up some kind of
> > Rose-Finn-Rey triangle for Episode 9, mirroring the
> > will-they-or-won't-they Luke-Leia-Han dynamic. But, since there is no
> > far-reaching master plan for this trilogy (they're making it up as they
> > go along), who knows?
>
> Rey turns out to be gay, and we get Rey and Rose? That could work.
>

They did promise some of the characters were gay. Everyone assumed it was Poe for Finn, so it could be a "does Finn like Poe Rey or Rose?"

Or Leia and her senior staff just had interesting ways of relieving stress.

> > Zob (hell, the prequel trilogy is better than what Disney is pumping out currently)
>

Episode 1 is questionable, but episode 3 was definitely better than TFA and TLJ

> Each scene of the new movies are better than any scene of the prequels.
> That said, TFA is my least favorite Star Wars movie — the movie as a whole
> does nothing new.
>

JJ Abrams is afraid to do something new. He tried something new with his first Star Trek and fans complained, so never again.

> TLJ did a lot of new and interesting stuff. It has its flaws, but it’s
> probably my favorite non-original trilogy movie. I’ll have to see how it
> holds up to rewatching. I don’t need the third movie in this trilogy though
> — TLJ worked as an ending.
>

I agree, TLJ is a significant improvement over TFA. Some of the techsplainations are idiotic, why does a transport have a "stealth mode" and if a ship in battle can scan for "stealth mode" ships, then is there really a "stealth mode"and why aren't they just scanning for stealth mode ships at all times?

> Also, remember, some of those Porgs were just added in post production to
> hide the puffins that wouldn’t leave them alone.
>
>

All those Puffins on The Falcon must have been a nuisance.

[Travoltron]

On 1/20/2018 12:20 PM, Gustavo Wombat wrote:
> If you’re a white male, the only major player in the movie
> that you have is... Kylo Ren.

> I’m all for increased representation, but there should be a little white
> male representation as well. For the toys.

Since it's been brought up already, I guess I can say it. I have no idea
if it has anything to do with _race_ or not, but I think it's Disney and
Kathleen Kennedy's bizarre feminist leanings that's killing the brand.
All the male characters in TLJ are overemotional, incompetent idiots
that all need to be womansplained to. And similar problems have plagued
all three of the Disney Star Wars films. White Anglo female protagonist,
lame, dull supporting characters.

What young boy is going to want to play with any of these toys?
Especially when the toy ads are marketed to girls and show girls playing
with the toys?

Yeah, it would be cool if girls played with action figures, but most
just don't want to. That's just the way it is, and all the Disney social
engineering in the world won't change it. I see that they've made Star
Wars dolls (Forces of Destiny), but they don't seem to be selling
either. If they placed them in the Barbie aisle they might do better,
but the feminists strongarmed the stores into doing away with having
separate boys/girls aisles so they have to put them with the other Star
Wars toys.

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 10:42:24 AM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:

> I think it's Disney and Kathleen Kennedy's bizarre feminist leanings that's
> killing the brand.

Star Wars has always severely underrepresented female characters. I would be hard pressed to name ten of them. In the original trilogy, you've got Princess Leia and then you almost immediately have to jump into obscure characters who aren't even named in the films (Mon Mothma, Oola, Yarna D'Gargan, Sy Snootles, Kabe, the Tonnika sisters, and I seriously can't seem to think of two more).

So, maybe a bit of feminism is called for. As with so many things, I think the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction. Rey is the main character of the story. She's Katniss Everdeen with a lightsaber. Jyn Erso was a short-haired version of Rey. Finn's ex-stormtrooper boss is a lady. The head honcos of the Resistances are gals. It's overkill, like they're trying to undo the male-dominated aspect of the old Star Wars by throwing even more estrogen at the problem.

> What young boy is going to want to play with any of these toys?
> Especially when the toy ads are marketed to girls and show girls playing
> with the toys?

I guess it depends on who they think their core audience is. Action figures have always been a boy-driven market.

> I see that they've made Star Wars dolls (Forces of Destiny), but they don't
> seem to be selling either. If they placed them in the Barbie aisle they
> might do better, but the feminists strongarmed the stores into doing away
> with having separate boys/girls aisles so they have to put them with the
> other Star Wars toys.

At my Walmart, they actually did belong in the girls' doll aisle. We had them merchandised next to Monster High, Disney Descendants, etc. They didn't sell, though, and just this week Walmart marked them down to, like, two dollars. Part of it was that there were a lot of characters nobody was familiar with (Jyn Erso, Sabine Wren, etc.) but I think part of it is that Star Wars just isn't traditionally a girls' license, and girls just aren't that interested in the characters.

Shrug. It was a good try. (Two years ago, we got a new line of dolls called Star Cuties or something like that, and at first I had been hoping that it was a line of Star Wars dolls for girls. It actually ended up having nothing to do with Star Wars, so I'm glad they finally tried out the idea a year later.)


Zob (they need to stop pushing Jyn Erso merchandise... she's definitely a Star Cutie, but nobody cares about her)

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 1:18:01 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> I don’t see Lando as a villain in Empire. He’s a flawed man, making the
> best of a bad situation, and then realizing he has compromised too much.

Point taken, but in his first appearance he's not really a great role model. He's a backstabber and double-crosser.

> Rey turns out to be gay, and we get Rey and Rose? That could work.

I think that's a bit more daring than what Disney is currently willing to do. They'll include a lesbian couple in the TV series Good Luck Charlie (when it was in its final season and being cancelled regardless) or strongly imply that LaFou in the live-action Beauty and the Beast has the hots for Gaston (while still keeping it sufficiently vague that you could interpret it differently if you want to).

They're taking baby steps towards being progressive while trying to avoid offending people as much as possible. It's a bizarre balancing act.

> Also, remember, some of those Porgs were just added in post production to
> hide the puffins that wouldn’t leave them alone.

I actually really like that this was the genesis of the Porgs, because it reminds me of the ways movies were so limited and they were forced to come up with creative solutions to problems.


Zob (CGI is a convenient solution for everything)

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 8:09:45 AM UTC-7, Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. wrote:

> They're trying so hard not to make her a damsel in distress that she's doing

> so much completely separate from the rest of the story. She's a Disney

> Princess who refuses to let anyone else save her as she continues to put
> herself in danger.

In some ways, her story is destined to mirror Luke Skywalker's story to some extent. She's young and still discovering her secret hidden powers, but now she doesn't have anyone to teach her. Rey going to Ahch-To was the equivalent of Luke going to Dagobah. In the next film, she's going to have to learn to use her powers without succumbing to the Dark Side. Or, maybe she'll learn to embrace both sides equally.

>> Bruce Lee must have had a role or two like that...
>
> Jackie Chan....

I'm speaking more towards the token Asian character who is inserted into a diverse group as a strictly demographic move. Harry Kim from Star Trek: Voyager. Glenn Rhee on The Walking Dead. Cristina Yang on Grey's Anatomy. None of these characters was ever mistaken for the lead character of their respective series (who was always white).

The closest I've seen recently is Lucy Liu being cast as Dr. Watson in the 2012 Sherlock Holmes series. That was some remarkably progressive casting. Still not the main character, but an indispensable second-stringer.

> Finn is kind of worthless. It was interesting how he defied brainwashing so
> easily, and then he could (not well but he could) wield a lightsaber.

I don't think the ability to use a lightsaber indicates any Force abilities. Han could use Luke's lightsaber to cut open a tauntaun.

> If Finn ended up force-sensitive, and giving in to his rage and the dark-
> side, then he might have been interesting. But no, he's just minorty-hire
> sidekick. I almost feel like they're taking him to a comedy relief role.

He's definitely there for comic relief. He's like an inoffensive Jar Jar Binks.

> They did promise some of the characters were gay. Everyone assumed it was Poe
> for Finn, so it could be a "does Finn like Poe Rey or Rose?"

The great thing about meta-commentary by the writers is that they can say whatever they want about the characters without fear of backlash from conservative groups. Let's say, just for example, that it was Captain Phasma. She's not an important enough character to delve into her personal relationships, so in theory they could say whatever they wanted about her.

It would be like retroactively deciding that Boba Fett was gay. It really doesn't affect the character's role in the films, but they get to slap on a new coat of diversity paint.

> JJ Abrams is afraid to do something new. He tried something new with his
> first Star Trek and fans complained, so never again.

I liked Super 8.


Zob (just sayin')

[No One In Particular]

On 1/24/2018 10:03 PM, Zobovor wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 7:58:08 PM UTC-7, No One In Particular wrote:
>

Snip

>
> No, I'm all for diversity. Part of the point of entertainment like this is escapism, to pretend that you're
>the dashing hero on screen who beats the bad guys and wins the day. The problem is, there's traditionally been
>a strong disconnect between the fantasy and the audience, unless you're a young white male. A young black male
>can't really watch the original Star Wars films and get a sense that he could ever be the action hero. (Lando
>Calrissian is the only prominent African-American character, and he's arguably a villain in his first appearance.)
>
> So, I totally get the very real need for new Star Wars characters like Rey and Finn. The problem is when the
>diversity feels like it's too carefully-constructed. Sometimes it's organic and natural, and sometimes it feels
>like they were working off a master checklist of their top six demographic races.

This is kind of what I meant, but I explained it badly (or didn't
explain it all). Checking off tick marks on list.

>
> And, really, there are unspoken limitations. Just for example, there's always a token Asian character, but I don't
>think I've ever seen an instance where he's the main character; i.e., the one who is unkillable, the one who gets
>the girl, etc. No, that role is almost exclusively reserved for the white guy. We still have a long way to go.
>

Snipperoo

>
> She appeals to the Asian demographic. That was her main role in the film.
>
> I didn't hate Rose, either. I would have to actually care about her in order to hate her. I almost feel like her
>love interest in Finn was specifically orchestrated by the writers to set up some kind of Rose-Finn-Rey triangle for
>Episode 9, mirroring the will-they-or-won't-they Luke-Leia-Han dynamic. But, since there is no far-reaching master plan for
>this trilogy (they're making it up as they go along), who knows?
>
>
> Zob (hell, the prequel trilogy is better than what Disney is pumping out currently)
>

I get the point about Rose appealing to a racial demographic, but that
doesn't make her a good character. She's just kinda...there.

It does kinda seem like they're throwing stuff at the wall to see what
sticks, doesn't it?

Brian

[Travoltron]

Agreed. More female characters could have been cool. But these ones
suck. (like all the Disney Star Wars characters.) The writers are too
dumb to realize how bad they come off. The all-white female leadership
ends up getting the entire Resistance killed.

Like I said before, the legacy is in tatters. All the old main
characters are dead, the Jedi are dead, the Sith are dead. There's very
little connecting this to what came before to me and I'm going to have
little interest in anything further.

The only thing that could possibly save the Legacy is this "ReyLo"
shipping internet theory/meme. If Rey and Kylo Ren have a child
together, the Skywalker legacy would live on.

I dunno. I probably sound angrier about this movie than I really am.
I've been highly critical of Star Wars since 1999.... probably since the
'97 Special Editions even.

It's just that I still enjoyed the OT merchandise that Hasbro churned
out until Disney took over and basically killed it.

[No One In Particular]

On 1/25/2018 2:17 AM, Gustavo Wombat wrote:

>
> Her main role was to show Finn that real people are suffering from this
> war, and that he can’t just walk away from it — by having the power to do
> something, he has a responsibility to do something. Which he also had to
> learn in the Cantina scene in TFA. Because he doesn’t learn.
>
> I really liked Rose, although she could have done without her sisters death
> at the beginning, since she stopped grieving scary easily. I don’t like
> Finn at all, and don’t see why anyone would have a romance with him.
>

She wasn't "real people" though. She was already part of the rebellion.
We know they're suffering. :)

I just found her kind of bland, mostly because they didn't really do a
whole lot with her. Not the actress' fault.

Brian

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 6:27:17 PM UTC-7, Travoltron wrote:

> Like I said before, the legacy is in tatters. All the old main
> characters are dead, the Jedi are dead, the Sith are dead. There's very
> little connecting this to what came before to me and I'm going to have
> little interest in anything further.

One of the great things about Star Wars is that there are so many characters who are not tied directly to a performance by a single person. Characters like C-3PO and R2-D2 and Boba Fett and Chewbacca and Jabba the Hutt and Yoda don't have to age the way human actors do. They could do prequel stories that strongly feature any of these characters. Hell, they could do a Greedo origin story and I'd be interested.

The upcoming Han Solo film is less interesting to me because it won't be Harrison Ford and Billy Dee Williams. The characters won't look like themselves.

> I dunno. I probably sound angrier about this movie than I really am.
> I've been highly critical of Star Wars since 1999.... probably since the
> '97 Special Editions even.

I was actually pretty excited about the Special Editions. Prior to their existence, I loved Star Wars except for the parts that looked awful (the cheesy explosions, the bad stop-motion animation, etc.) The Special Editions fixed most of the problems and modernized the movies for a new age. The 1977 version of A New Hope looked horrible when compared to then-modern films, but the 1997 version looked fantastic.

The movies that they're making now, though, they don't capture any of the magic and awe of the old films. Maybe it's just because none of us are kids any longer. Or maybe they're just making bad movies.

> It's just that I still enjoyed the OT merchandise that Hasbro churned
> out until Disney took over and basically killed it.

At work, I have an entire endcap of Rathar space monsters from The Force Awakens. They shipped in large quantity with the Darth Vader and Probe Droid 2-pack. Everybody gobbled up the Darth Vader sets weeks ago. The poor Rathars are on clearance for five dollars now, and still nobody wants the damn things.


Zob (I'd buy one if I thought I could use it for a Final Fantasy IV project, but...)

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

I'm surprised with all this diversity talk nobody has complained how under-represented one group is in the movies.

We've talked about white guys, white girls, black people, Asians, but this happens long agon in a galaxy far far away.

We have CGI, we have Jim Henson's legacy, and we don't have any aliens in the main cast. We just have a cheap quick flash of some casino aliens, a rebel pilot or two, and most have no lines and aren't named. Ach-To has some aliens, but they might as well be Ugnauts or Jawas.

Before someone says Chewbacca, he's definitely not a main character anymore, he gets less screen time than unnamed rebel crew members who stand near Leia and give occasional looks of panic.

Even Star Trek would give someone a funny forehead or funny ears once in awhile.

The Porgs are the alien race with the most screen time.

[Gustavo Wombat]

Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People. <Ob1k...@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> But we still have Hero McWhiteguy as the Ace pilot, and his shortcoming
> is that nobody else can do as well as him so his miscellaneous coworkers
> end up getting killed.

Hero McWhiteguy the Ace Pilot is Hispanic.

(Now, *I* think that in 15 years we will be calling Hispanics white, so the
US remains a majority-white nation, but a lot of people put a pretty big
distinction there)

[Gustavo Wombat]

No One In Particular <brianc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 1/25/2018 2:17 AM, Gustavo Wombat wrote:
>
>>
>> Her main role was to show Finn that real people are suffering from this
>> war, and that he can’t just walk away from it — by having the power to do
>> something, he has a responsibility to do something. Which he also had to
>> learn in the Cantina scene in TFA. Because he doesn’t learn.
>>
>> I really liked Rose, although she could have done without her sisters death
>> at the beginning, since she stopped grieving scary easily. I don’t like
>> Finn at all, and don’t see why anyone would have a romance with him.
>>
>
> She wasn't "real people" though. She was already part of the rebellion.
> We know they're suffering. :)

She showed Finn the poor and impoverished on the Casino world, and tied it
into her own backstory. She was no longer real people, but they were.

> I just found her kind of bland, mostly because they didn't really do a
> whole lot with her. Not the actress' fault.

She had the same enthusiasm as Luke Skywalker did in the A New Hope. It’s
something that’s been missing for a while, and which I really enjoyed. They
could have made better use of her, but she was great.

Was anyone else optimistic or enthusiastic or really kind of fun?
Chewbacca, sure. But Finn, Rey or Poe? It’s just missing.

[Irrellius Spamticon of the Potato People.]

Yeah, the actor is Hispanic, but he doesn't look Hispanic enough to not be the white guy.

Diego Luna was more Hispanic, and I've heard a lot of white guys complain about Cassian Andor, and Cassian Andor toys didn't sell 1/3rd as well as Poe Dameron, despite Cassian getting more than twice the screen time and being a better written character overall.

Then again, long ago in a galaxy far far away, there is no North America, Asia, South America, or Africa...