Zob's Thoughts on Transformers: Prime "Convoy"

[Zobovor]

"Convoy" is episode nine of Transformers: Prime, first airing on March 4, 2011 during its first season.  It was written by Joseph Kuhr, who also wrote for Batman: the Brave and the Bold among other series.  The title is strangely apt, given that Convoy is the Japanese name for Optimus Prime.  

Our episode begins with one Special Agent Fowler yelling at Optimus Prime over a communications channel.  The Decepticons made an attempt to steal the Dynamic Nuclear Generation System, or DNGS (which he pronounced "dingus") and now Fowler is aboard a downed aircraft.  He demands that Prime use the space bridge to transport the device to safety, but Prime says the nuclear device is too volatile to transport in this manner.  Three human children provide sarcastic running commentary.

The Transformers: Prime character designs take their cues from the look of the Michael Bay movie characters, though the CGI designs are understandably much simpler.  The designs for their faces really bother me, though.  Optimus Prime, for example, has these gigantic Groucho Marx eyebrows, no nose whatsoever, and a tiny little slit for a mouth.  It's difficult to quantify what constitutes a cool-looking design, but the end result isn't cool-looking to me.  It's just goofy.  
Peter Cullen is arguably THE voice of Optimus Prime; he's been played by other voice actors (Neil Kaplan in 2001's Robots in Disguise; Garry Chalk during the Armada days; David Kaye for Animated) but none have successfully captured the deep resonance.  With that said, it's been over 30 years since Cullen first provided the voice characterization, and it shows in his delivery.  These days, his rendition of Prime toggles between world-weary and just plain exhausted.

So the Autobots arrive in person to transport the DNGS to its destination.  Somehow, they all manage to squeal their tires on dirt.  End teaser; cue the opening theme song.

An old rustbucket that looks like G2 Electro is in Prime's way; Special Agent Fowler impatiently lays on the horn.  It becomes apparent that they're being followed, ostensibly by Decepticons.  For some reason, Prime insists that they remain in vehicle mode and do not engage.  I'm struck by what a bad toy commercial this is, because Prime is the only Transformer that's been identified by name.  I recognize that the yellow guy must be Bumblebee and the white guy must be Ratchet, but there's also a green guy and I have no idea what his name is.  

The leader of the group finally reveals himself as Silas and his organization is called MECH.  I assume that's an acronym for something, but they never tell us.  Elsewhere, the Decepticons intercept a communications signal and learn of the Autobots' plans, and prepare to intercept.  When the Autobots enter a train tunnel, they switch the cargo, loading the DNGS onboard a train car with the help of military personnel.  Silas continues his pursuit of the Autobots, not realizing they have transported the cargo.

A bunch of generic Decepticon troops arrive and Prime is finally allowed to transform.  I'm not sure what purpose is served in staying in vehicle mode for 14 out of 22 minutes.  It's not like this is the Michael Bay films where it behooves the filmmakers to use their real-life cars as long as possible because of the expense of animating the robot forms in CGI.  The generic troops don't offer any clever quips, and indeed don't even speak; I suppose this gives the Autobots free reign to quickly and easily destroy them without having to get rid of any toy-characters.

Silas figures out that the device is on board the train and sends agents to intercept.  The human children decide it's necessary for them to save the day and use the space bridge to warp on board the train car, preparing to fight the MECH agents with fire extinguishers and such.  Silas inexplicably decides to withdraw,  but not before blasting the tracks ahead of the train.  Prime springs into action and, in a scene reminiscient of "Auto-Bop" but more likely borrowed from Spider-Man 2, he stops the train with his bare hands.  

I thought this review would be longer, but in truth I have so little to say.  There was virtually no character development for anybody, with Prime and Fowler getting the bulk of the dialogue.  The Autobots could have been replaced by any other characters and it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the story in the least.  This was not a very engaging episode for me, especially since the "race to find the MacGuffin" episodes have been done far better in other shows.

So, here's what I would have done differently. First, explain the reason why the Autobots feel like they need to stay disguised as vehicles. I'm sure it's got something to do with the premise of the show, or at least the first season, but I was essentially a first-time viewer and I felt lost. If they had stressed the danger of just what would happen if they did transform, it would have made the plot point seem important instead of just annoying.

All the Autobots should have been given a moment to shine. I can guess what their personalities are like based on their traditional character archetypes (Bumblebee is young and plucky, green maybe-Bulkhead is a rough-and-tumble type, etc.) but, really, none of that came through in this particular episode.

There should have been actual, live Decepticons to fight instead of drones with no dialogue. There was no witty banter and no real sense that the Autobots were ever in danger. I felt no desire to own a toy of a mindless Decepticon drone, if one even exists. The Autobot-Decepticon war is usually at the forefront of a Transformers story and sending brainless machines to do their dirty work is boring. (For the record, before anyone starts preparing a "G1 sucks too" argument, I hated the centurion droids in "The Key to Vector Sigma" and I hated the Decepti-cars in "Make Tracks.")

I get that shows like this are usually structured so that the children end up saving the day. Spike (and, later, Daniel) did it countless times throughout G1; those stupid kids in Armada did it constantly; etc. If somebody feels like this is how the target audience relates to this show, fine. There's certainly a precedent for it throughout children's programming. Penny was the real hero of the Inspector Gadget series; the human friends of the Dinosaucers usually got more screen time than the actual Dinosaucers did; the list goes on. The episode just broadcasts it so obviously. The kids literally just stand there, doing absolutely nothing useful, until they decide it's time to save the Autobots and warp in there to be the heroes. It would have flowed more organically if they'd been accidentally caught up in affairs somehow or if they had been forced, compelled, to intervene because somebody had a personal stake in the episode's events. Also, like the Autobots, I didn't get a feel at all for their individual personalities. They were just... the prerequisite kids.

Also, speaking strictly from the standpoint of an old Geewun fanboy, this is a show where Frank Welker returned as the voice of Megatron, so an episode without him seems empty somehow.

Go ahead and challenge my opinions! Tell me why I'm wrong! Go ahead, I'm a big boy. I can take it.


Zob (I'll be in the corner, sucking my thumb)

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 9:32:41 PM UTC-7, Zobovor wrote:
> "Convoy" is episode nine of Transformers: Prime, first airing on March 4, 2011 during its first season.  It was written by Joseph Kuhr, who also wrote for Batman: the Brave and the Bold among other series.  The title is strangely apt, given that Convoy is the Japanese name for Optimus Prime.  

Also, more importantly, they are a convoy.

> Our episode begins with one Special Agent Fowler yelling at Optimus Prime over a communications channel.  The Decepticons made an attempt to steal the Dynamic Nuclear Generation System, or DNGS (which he pronounced "dingus") and now Fowler is aboard a downed aircraft.  He demands that Prime use the space bridge to transport the device to safety, but Prime says the nuclear device is too volatile to transport in this manner.  Three human children provide sarcastic running commentary.

Only Miko is sarcastic. Jack is quiet, and Raf is wondering whether he is about to get irradiated by an exploding Dingus.

> The Transformers: Prime character designs take their cues from the look of the Michael Bay movie characters, though the CGI designs are understandably much simpler.  The designs for their faces really bother me, though.  Optimus Prime, for example, has these gigantic Groucho Marx eyebrows, no nose whatsoever, and a tiny little slit for a mouth.  It's difficult to quantify what constitutes a cool-looking design, but the end result isn't cool-looking to me.  It's just goofy.  

The designs are a weird mix of TF:Animated and the Movieverse. And, like Animated, they take a while to get used to.

> Peter Cullen is arguably THE voice of Optimus Prime; he's been played by other voice actors (Neil Kaplan in 2001's Robots in Disguise; Garry Chalk during the Armada days; David Kaye for Animated) but none have successfully captured the deep resonance.  With that said, it's been over 30 years since Cullen first provided the voice characterization, and it shows in his delivery.  These days, his rendition of Prime toggles between world-weary and just plain exhausted.

I think part of that is the Optimii he is voicing are world-weary and exhausted. One of the things I find a little jarring is that TF:Prime Optimus Prime looks young and sounds old.

> So the Autobots arrive in person to transport the DNGS to its destination.  Somehow, they all manage to squeal their tires on dirt.  End teaser; cue the opening theme song.

It's part of their disguise. Their tires actually never squeal, but they play a squealing noise at appropriate times so people don't notice. But they don't always get it right.

> An old rustbucket that looks like G2 Electro is in Prime's way; Special Agent Fowler impatiently lays on the horn.  It becomes apparent that they're being followed, ostensibly by Decepticons.  For some reason, Prime insists that they remain in vehicle mode and do not engage.

The public doesn't know about Transformers in this continuity, and the Autobots intend to keep it that way.

> I'm struck by what a bad toy commercial this is, because Prime is the only Transformer that's been identified by name.  I recognize that the yellow guy must be Bumblebee and the white guy must be Ratchet, but there's also a green guy and I have no idea what his name is.  

Don't forget the blue motorcycle!

> The leader of the group finally reveals himself as Silas and his organization is called MECH.  I assume that's an acronym for something, but they never tell us.

Monstrous Electronic Cannibal Hamsters. They're sort of embarrassed about their name, so they don't use it often.

> Elsewhere, the Decepticons intercept a communications signal and learn of the Autobots' plans, and prepare to intercept.  When the Autobots enter a train tunnel, they switch the cargo, loading the DNGS onboard a train car with the help of military personnel.  Silas continues his pursuit of the Autobots, not realizing they have transported the cargo.
>
> A bunch of generic Decepticon troops arrive and Prime is finally allowed to transform.  I'm not sure what purpose is served in staying in vehicle mode for 14 out of 22 minutes.  It's not like this is the Michael Bay films where it behooves the filmmakers to use their real-life cars as long as possible because of the expense of animating the robot forms in CGI.  The generic troops don't offer any clever quips, and indeed don't even speak; I suppose this gives the Autobots free reign to quickly and easily destroy them without having to get rid of any toy-characters.

The Vehicons speak. One of them spoke this episode in fact. They don't make a lot of quips in this series, although there are a few scenes in other episodes where they chat among themselves and complain about their bosses.

> Silas figures out that the device is on board the train and sends agents to intercept.  The human children decide it's necessary for them to save the day and use the space bridge to warp on board the train car, preparing to fight the MECH agents with fire extinguishers and such.

It's such a staggeringly bad, ill-thought-out plan. They have no weapons.

>  Silas inexplicably decides to withdraw,

He saw Optimus approaching, and recognized that his troops wouldn't have time to secure the Dingus and get it off the train. The kids delay the troops for an instant, but they would have been shot.

> but not before blasting the tracks ahead of the train.  Prime springs into action and, in a scene reminiscient of "Auto-Bop" but more likely borrowed from Spider-Man 2, he stops the train with his bare hands.  

The train scene has been used in Superman comics and cartoons going back a long, long time. I assume there are lots of other spots it gets used.

> I thought this review would be longer, but in truth I have so little to say.  There was virtually no character development for anybody, with Prime and Fowler getting the bulk of the dialogue.  

I think we got a lot of development for Jack, and give or take every other character got a brief moment. There were a lot of characters, though.

But, you didn't notice, or weren't interested in:

The discovery that humans can be as evil as the Decepticons?
The woeful ineffectiveness of the kids plan?
Autobots killing people?
Jack's very uncertain steps towards heroism?
Starscream delegating too much, but still showing more military genius than just about any previous Decepticon leader?
The animation?
The music?
The really nice opening?

> The Autobots could have been replaced by any other characters and it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the story in the least.

That's objectively not true. Replace Bumblebee with G1 Slizardo, Bulkhead with Energon Alpha Q, Ratchet with Armada Leader-1 and Arcee with The Fallen, and it would have been entirely different!

It's a very human centric story though.

> This was not a very engaging episode for me, especially since the "race to find the MacGuffin" episodes have been done far better in other shows.


> So, here's what I would have done differently. First, explain the reason why the Autobots feel like they need to stay disguised as vehicles. I'm sure it's got something to do with the premise of the show, or at least the first season, but I was essentially a first-time viewer and I felt lost. If they had stressed the danger of just what would happen if they did transform, it would have made the plot point seem important instead of just annoying.

I wonder if you would be lost watching a random episode of Beast Wars for the first time. If you didn't already know and love the characters, would you recognize the slow, subtle development that occurred across many episodes?

G1 was very much a short-form show -- characters got a single spotlight episode, and has minimal characterization outside of their spotlight episode. With BW and TF:Prime, you're getting more of a slice of the whole series, even if the episode has a proper story arc.

> All the Autobots should have been given a moment to shine. I can guess what their personalities are like based on their traditional character archetypes (Bumblebee is young and plucky, green maybe-Bulkhead is a rough-and-tumble type, etc.) but, really, none of that came through in this particular episode.

You didn't get anything from their individual battle styles? It's not all dialog in this series -- particularly because neither Bumblebee nor Soundwave actually speak.

And, each got a few lines to remind us of their character, except Bumblebee of course, but he got a little extra focus in the action scenes.

> There should have been actual, live Decepticons to fight instead of drones with no dialogue. There was no witty banter and no real sense that the Autobots were ever in danger. I felt no desire to own a toy of a mindless Decepticon drone, if one even exists.

They aren't mindless or drones. They are fine, upstanding members of the Decepticon army. I do think they should have been given more explicit personalities, and more varied personalities, throughout the show.

> The Autobot-Decepticon war is usually at the forefront of a Transformers story and sending brainless machines to do their dirty work is boring.

I don't like Bumblebee either, but Bulkhead is always very nice, despite being dimwitted.

> (For the record, before anyone starts preparing a "G1 sucks too" argument, I hated the centurion droids in "The Key to Vector Sigma" and I hated the Decepti-cars in "Make Tracks.")

I liked the centurion droids. Really, every artifact of ancient Cybertron delighted me.

> I get that shows like this are usually structured so that the children end up saving the day. Spike (and, later, Daniel) did it countless times throughout G1; those stupid kids in Armada did it constantly; etc. If somebody feels like this is how the target audience relates to this show, fine. There's certainly a precedent for it throughout children's programming. Penny was the real hero of the Inspector Gadget series; the human friends of the Dinosaucers usually got more screen time than the actual Dinosaucers did; the list goes on. The episode just broadcasts it so obviously. The kids literally just stand there, doing absolutely nothing useful, until they decide it's time to save the Autobots and warp in there to be the heroes.

... And they are utterly ineffective.

> It would have flowed more organically if they'd been accidentally caught up in affairs somehow or if they had been forced, compelled, to intervene because somebody had a personal stake in the episode's events. Also, like the Autobots, I didn't get a feel at all for their individual personalities. They were just... the prerequisite kids.

I thought the kids' personalities came out well. Raf doesn't have a personality, of course. But Miko and Jack got a lot of bits of characterization. Miko is like G1 Cliffjumper, filled with bravado and a courage that borders on stupidity, and Jack has the same reluctance of G1 Mirage.

I figure referencing G1 Autobots is the way to go with you.

> Also, speaking strictly from the standpoint of an old Geewun fanboy, this is a show where Frank Welker returned as the voice of Megatron, so an episode without him seems empty somehow.

It's such a different Megatron it's not the same at all.

> Go ahead and challenge my opinions! Tell me why I'm wrong! Go ahead, I'm a big boy. I can take it.

I think we have wildly different views of this episode.

[Cappeca]

Wow, was that cynical!

Em quinta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2015 01:32:41 UTC-3, Zobovor escreveu:
> Go ahead and challenge my opinions! Tell me why I'm wrong! Go ahead, I'm a big boy. I can take it.
>

I'm too old for this, so I'll just say that whenever people criticise Prime over mcguffin hunt race, I immediately understand that they're just repeating what they read on the internet and no real opinion was formed. That doesn't make one fundamentally wrong, just uninterested. Seriously, next time we do a non-G1 cartoon, you *can* pass it up if you feel like so, we wouldn't want you to try too hard and strain a muscle.

Convoy is a good episode. When I first read the suggestion I thought it would be the one about Nemesis Prime, but I guess this one was a better choice. Silas and the MECH guys really hit a nerve with me - they're *evil*. I don't like it (I mean, I like it because it's mature, but I hate it because it makes me anxious) when people put adult villains in children's cartoon - Silas is the opposite of GB Blackrock, he represents the worst that humans have to offer regarding Transformers, he's precisely what I would expect from corporations should a real Transformer invasion happen on this planet. That terrifies me.

I love the vehicons, but I'm a troop builder myself. The concept of drones is not strange to Transformers, coming from the G1 Insecticons, through Masterforce, through Beast Machines, through Armada right up to Energon. They represented a far more serious danger in the first episodes, but became comic relief by the end of the series (remember when Megatron throws a couple of vehicons from his ship? And only one was a flyer?). Still, they make up for the constant need of Status Quo.

I'll wait for Gustavo's own review. This weekend is my 10yo b-day party, and he's doing it halloween style. Which means I don't care what the TFWiki says, if I have to pick up a bunch of 10 year olds at their homes one by one, dressed as Jason Voorhees under a 30C heat, I'm totally making them watch "TFPrime: Thirst" on Netflix.

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 1:59:33 PM UTC-6, Cappeca wrote:

> Wow, was that cynical!

I didn't mean for it to be.

> I'm too old for this, so I'll just say that whenever people criticise Prime
> over mcguffin hunt race, I immediately understand that they're just repeating
> what they read on the internet and no real opinion was formed. That doesn't
> make one fundamentally wrong, just uninterested.

I actually didn't read anything about the episode in advance. At its core, that's what the episode is: the quest to transport a plot device. I'm not saying there's inherently anything wrong with the premise; it's a time-honored tradition, especially in children's programming, which tends to err on the side of simplified. And, just to be fair, a lot of G1 episodes did it, too. The difference seems to be that in an episode like, say, "Hoist Goes Hollywood," the MacGuffin (the secret Autobot weapon carried by Dirge) takes a back seat to the interplay between the movie star Autobots. The quest to recover a plot device is still there, in the background, but it doesn't dominate every beat of the episode. "Convoy" was an event-driven episode with very little characterization, where "Hoist Goes Hollywood" is a character-driven episode.

> Seriously, next time we do a non-G1 cartoon, you *can* pass it up if you feel
> like so, we wouldn't want you to try too hard and strain a muscle.

Aw, don't be mean. One of the reasons I resurrected the Cartoon Viewing Club was because I *wanted* to watch episodes I hadn't seen before. I was just relying on you guys to pick the episodes, because I don't know the good episodes from the bad ones. Neither does Gustavo, either, apparently. (Oh, stop giving me that look. I kid because I care. And because I'm a sarcastic jerk.)

> I love the vehicons, but I'm a troop builder myself. The concept of drones is
> not strange to Transformers, coming from the G1 Insecticons, through
> Masterforce, through Beast Machines, through Armada right up to Energon.

The advantage of disposable drones, from a storytelling standpoint, is that it allows the good guys to score kills without reducing the number of feature-character bad guys. Again, it's a time-honored tradition (the Vipers in G.I. Joe; the stormtroopers in Star Wars; the Foot Soldiers in Ninja Turtles) but it's also complemented by feature characters. Shrapnel and Bombshell and Kickback were always there in addition to the Insecticon clones. The Sweeps never operated all by themselves; they were always flanked by Scourge and Cyclonus.

To me, the drone characters are just so utterly uninteresting. The Sweeps and Vipers and stormtroopers are slightly more appealing because they have distinct voices and mannerisms and it's possible to intuit a little, but not much, about their characters. Foot Soldiers and Vehicon drones (from Beast Machines or Transformers: Prime) are far less appealing because they don't even talk.


Zob (party pooper extraordinaire)

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 1:08:22 AM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> The public doesn't know about Transformers in this continuity, and the
> Autobots intend to keep it that way.

Obviously, not every episode can explain in detail every nuance of the show's premise. We probably got a very good explanation in the first episode, I would assume. Any episode of the show is a potential jumping-in point for new viewers, though. When so much of this particular episode hinges on the necessity for the Autobots to stay hidden, though, it wouldn't have killed them to explain why this was so important.

Of course, the opposite approach is to remind viewers of the story premise in EVERY episode ("remember, stay in beast mode; we don't want the Vehicons to scan us when we're in robot mode!") which is not necessarily the best approach, either. Surely there's a happy middle ground somewhere.

> But, you didn't notice, or weren't interested in:
>
> The discovery that humans can be as evil as the Decepticons?

For some reason it just didn't resonate with me. Not sure why.

I assume that Silas appears in episodes after this one and continues to do bad things? He just didn't strike me as very interesting. He was a very generic bad guy.

> The woeful ineffectiveness of the kids plan?
> Autobots killing people?

I did not observe this happening.

> Jack's very uncertain steps towards heroism?

It's possible that if I were to watch many more episodes, I would recognize this step in his character progression. It's hard to recognize this character development when I have no idea what he was like before this episode, or how he behaves after this one.

> Starscream delegating too much, but still showing more military genius than
> just about any previous Decepticon leader?

Starscream got so little screen time that he barely registered with me. He sent the drones after the convoy. That's all I remember him doing.

> The animation?

I really wasn't able to appreciate any of the animation nuances because the episode I watched was so choppy. I swear, I watched the first two minutes of the episode ten times, trying to get it to buffer and actually play smoothly.

> The music?

I did not notice the music.

> The really nice opening?

It seems like an attempt at capturing the mood of the theatrical films (particularly the first one). This show has always struck me as Michael Bay's Transformers: the 22-Minute Cartoon Version. The theme does a good job of showcasing each main character and what he can transform into, so it's effective advertising.

> I wonder if you would be lost watching a random episode of Beast Wars for the
> first time. If you didn't already know and love the characters, would you
> recognize the slow, subtle development that occurred across many episodes?

It's good to see you don't forget to load your questions before you fire them off! You're essentially asking me, "If you only watched one episode, would you notice the character development over multiple episodes?" and the answer, of course, is bicycle fish.

> You didn't get anything from their individual battle styles? It's not all
> dialog in this series -- particularly because neither Bumblebee nor Soundwave
> actually speak.

I did notice that Bumblebee was punching the drones like a prize fighter. I assumed it was something he'd seen on TV or something.

> They aren't mindless or drones. They are fine, upstanding members of the
> Decepticon army. I do think they should have been given more explicit
> personalities, and more varied personalities, throughout the show.

I didn't recall hearing any dialogue from them. I assumed they couldn't talk.

> It's such a different Megatron it's not the same at all.

Yeah, but it's so nice to hear him doing the voice again. I caught a piece of one episode with him in it, and hearing Frank Welker as Megatron gave me the happies in my bellies.

> I think we have wildly different views of this episode.

Evidently!

I will freely admit that I am always going to look at stuff from my childhood more favorably than the current stuff. It's just how my brain is wired. So, yeah, I'm totally biased. It's rare that I will totally fall in love with a new show as an adult, but it has happened (The Walking Dead, but not Fear the Walking Dead; the U.S. version of Wilfred; Orange is the New Black). It's possible that my brain will no longer accept children's programming? I'm trying to remember the last kids' show, or film, that I really loved. Disney/Pixar's Cars? Phineas and Ferb? I'm tempted to say that they just don't make good shows like they used to, though I recognize that's me looking at the world through a superficial nostalgia bubble.


Zob (fuddy duddy at large)

[Velvet Glove]

I think for Transformers Prime (and certainly coming to it as an adult viewer rather than a child), it's best to start at the start. The introduction to the series is really pretty damned effective, certainly at setting up the premise. You'd still nitpick it though, god knows I remember I did. Now the kids are old enough to enjoy it, I've been rewatching it with the family, but it's the first time through for my husband and he's jaded, but at the same time, he's still watching. We just watched Armada (in season two) this evening, and damn, I'd forgotten how good that episode was (even with the tired Arcee/Airachnid subplot.)

For the purposes of the cartoon viewing club, I don't know if it would have been easy to jump in at the start (I mean, the entire five part miniseries opening might have been a bit ambitious...) Convoy is a pretty serviceable episode and I believe it was the one where I finally started to tolerate Miko. But it's really hard for me to figure out how I'd feel about it if it was the first episode of Prime I ever watched. Mostly, I'm much more in line with Gustavo's take of course.

That said, Zob, if you failed to notice the music, I have no sympathy for you. I mean, seriously... Prime's music is gorgeous.

Velvet Glove (No, I have no idea how long it's been since I posted. I meant to pop back when you did FFoD, but it never happened. Point is, I still functi--er, lurk.)

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 6:11:30 PM UTC-7, Zobovor wrote:
> On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 1:08:22 AM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
> > The public doesn't know about Transformers in this continuity, and the
> > Autobots intend to keep it that way.
>
> Obviously, not every episode can explain in detail every nuance of the show's premise. We probably got a very good explanation in the first episode, I would assume. Any episode of the show is a potential jumping-in point for new viewers, though. When so much of this particular episode hinges on the necessity for the Autobots to stay hidden, though, it wouldn't have killed them to explain why this was so important.
>
> Of course, the opposite approach is to remind viewers of the story premise in EVERY episode ("remember, stay in beast mode; we don't want the Vehicons to scan us when we're in robot mode!") which is not necessarily the best approach, either. Surely there's a happy middle ground somewhere.

It could have gotten a line, but it was a premise in the Movieverse, and TF:PrimeRID and TF:Armada, and in RID so I don't think a well-versed Transformers fan should be lost and puzzled by it. If they are staying in vehicle mode deliberately, you should assume that this is one of the continuities where they are in hiding.

And, actually, it did get a line. When they transform, Silas exclaims "So the rumors are true," and begins talking about them as Titans, etc.

> > But, you didn't notice, or weren't interested in:
> >
> > The discovery that humans can be as evil as the Decepticons?
>
> For some reason it just didn't resonate with me. Not sure why.
>
> I assume that Silas appears in episodes after this one and continues to do bad things? He just didn't strike me as very interesting. He was a very generic bad guy.

He ends up getting dissected by the Decepticons in a later episode.

> > The woeful ineffectiveness of the kids plan?
> > Autobots killing people?
>
> I did not observe this happening.

Car flips, bursts into flames, no one shown escaping. They probably burn to death offscreen. It's heavily implied by the events, and by the sudden lack of scenes showing the little MECH soldier guys surviving.

> > Jack's very uncertain steps towards heroism?
>
> It's possible that if I were to watch many more episodes, I would recognize this step in his character progression. It's hard to recognize this character development when I have no idea what he was like before this episode, or how he behaves after this one.
>
> > Starscream delegating too much, but still showing more military genius than
> > just about any previous Decepticon leader?
>
> Starscream got so little screen time that he barely registered with me. He sent the drones after the convoy. That's all I remember him doing.

And, even doing so little, shows more military genius than any previous Decepticon leader. Hunt the Autobots when they are weak or distracted, and kill them -- it's a simple plan, but it's a good one, and no one bothered to do it before him.

> > The animation?
>
> I really wasn't able to appreciate any of the animation nuances because the episode I watched was so choppy. I swear, I watched the first two minutes of the episode ten times, trying to get it to buffer and actually play smoothly.

Netflix has it, and it is gorgeous. Or just bittorrent it. It is crappy by the standards of the better Pixar and modern movies, but the quality has jumped to the level of the first really good CGI movies.

And, it manages that without being overstylized the way BM was -- which had been the previous best animation.

> > The music?
>
> I did not notice the music.
>
> > The really nice opening?
>
> It seems like an attempt at capturing the mood of the theatrical films (particularly the first one). This show has always struck me as Michael Bay's Transformers: the 22-Minute Cartoon Version. The theme does a good job of showcasing each main character and what he can transform into, so it's effective advertising.

The heroic march comes in just for the Decepticons. The Autobots get their moody, doomed music. It's a nice twist.

> > I wonder if you would be lost watching a random episode of Beast Wars for the
> > first time. If you didn't already know and love the characters, would you
> > recognize the slow, subtle development that occurred across many episodes?
>
> It's good to see you don't forget to load your questions before you fire them off! You're essentially asking me, "If you only watched one episode, would you notice the character development over multiple episodes?" and the answer, of course, is bicycle fish.

I meant it more of a "are these shows unwatchable by someone who hasn't already gotten invested into it?"

> > You didn't get anything from their individual battle styles? It's not all
> > dialog in this series -- particularly because neither Bumblebee nor Soundwave
> > actually speak.
>
> I did notice that Bumblebee was punching the drones like a prize fighter. I assumed it was something he'd seen on TV or something.

See, now I also wonder whether your opinion and enjoyment would have changed had you seen a better version of it... There's a lot of body language throughout the series, and characters are shown as much through their actions as their words.

I don't know why Bumblebee fights like a boxer -- since he never speaks, he is the hardest of the characters to understand -- but I do like that each of them has their own styles of movement, and that they are consistent.

> > They aren't mindless or drones. They are fine, upstanding members of the
> > Decepticon army. I do think they should have been given more explicit
> > personalities, and more varied personalities, throughout the show.
>
> I didn't recall hearing any dialogue from them. I assumed they couldn't talk.

There was a single line this episode.

> > It's such a different Megatron it's not the same at all.
>
> Yeah, but it's so nice to hear him doing the voice again. I caught a piece of one episode with him in it, and hearing Frank Welker as Megatron gave me the happies in my bellies.

It always sounds like Frank Welker doing a Hugo Weaving impersonation.

> > I think we have wildly different views of this episode.
>
> Evidently!
>
> I will freely admit that I am always going to look at stuff from my childhood more favorably than the current stuff. It's just how my brain is wired. So, yeah, I'm totally biased. It's rare that I will totally fall in love with a new show as an adult, but it has happened (The Walking Dead, but not Fear the Walking Dead; the U.S. version of Wilfred; Orange is the New Black). It's possible that my brain will no longer accept children's programming? I'm trying to remember the last kids' show, or film, that I really loved. Disney/Pixar's Cars? Phineas and Ferb? I'm tempted to say that they just don't make good shows like they used to, though I recognize that's me looking at the world through a superficial nostalgia bubble.

I think a lot of the new shows are objectively better -- better written, better animated, better acted, better produced in general. They do lack the nostalgia factor, though, and sometimes don't measure up to the memory of the stuff we watched in our childhood.

But, then I watch the stuff from our childhood, and cringe at how uneven and oft-times bad it is. With Transformers, the G1 cartoon is often more imaginative, and that gives it something that can be lacking with the many, many new series (although, TF:Armada probably wins for imaginative, since they had the good guys and the bad guys fighting over who gets to enslave minicons).

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 12:59:33 PM UTC-7, Cappeca wrote:
> Wow, was that cynical!
>
> Em quinta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2015 01:32:41 UTC-3, Zobovor escreveu:
> > Go ahead and challenge my opinions! Tell me why I'm wrong! Go ahead, I'm a big boy. I can take it.
> >
>
> I'm too old for this, so I'll just say that whenever people criticise Prime over mcguffin hunt race, I immediately understand that they're just repeating what they read on the internet and no real opinion was formed.

Is there any Transformers series that doesn't have a bunch of McGuffin episodes? Or any action series at all?

> Convoy is a good episode. When I first read the suggestion I thought it would be the one about Nemesis Prime, but I guess this one was a better choice.

So many episodes are so continuity heavy that it's a little hard to get a good choice. For instance, the episodes with Jack's mom are great, but you have to go through a lot to get there.

And the Nemesis Prime episode is MECH-based.

Each episode has a beginning, middle and end, so they are their own story, but they aren't quite stand-alone.

> Silas and the MECH guys really hit a nerve with me - they're *evil*. I don't like it (I mean, I like it because it's mature, but I hate it because it makes me anxious) when people put adult villains in children's cartoon - Silas is the opposite of GB Blackrock, he represents the worst that humans have to offer regarding Transformers, he's precisely what I would expect from corporations should a real Transformer invasion happen on this planet. That terrifies me.

Silas shows that humanity is capable of evil, as much as Transformers. Even if there weren't Transformers around, you still have humans being evil. The problems of Earth in TF:Prime aren't that there are Transformers on it, it is the simple existence of evil.

And then we have Jack, coming to face evil and learn that it isn't enough to not be evil, but that one must actively oppose it.

> I love the vehicons, but I'm a troop builder myself. The concept of drones is not strange to Transformers, coming from the G1 Insecticons, through Masterforce, through Beast Machines, through Armada right up to Energon. They represented a far more serious danger in the first episodes, but became comic relief by the end of the series (remember when Megatron throws a couple of vehicons from his ship? And only one was a flyer?). Still, they make up for the constant need of Status Quo.

By the end of the series we had the Insecticons replacing them, so the danger was always slowly increased.

And they weren't drones. They were troopers. Starscream had trouble keeping them in line. They complained about Insecticons. They have sparks that can be extracted by spark extractors. They just all have identical bodies and don't speak much.

> I'll wait for Gustavo's own review. This weekend is my 10yo b-day party, and he's doing it halloween style. Which means I don't care what the TFWiki says, if I have to pick up a bunch of 10 year olds at their homes one by one, dressed as Jason Voorhees under a 30C heat, I'm totally making them watch "TFPrime: Thirst" on Netflix.

I posted yesterday! It was very long! No one has commented!

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/3qCx9dado4A/nIAeERKhDQAJ

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 5:23:32 PM UTC-7, Zobovor wrote:
> On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 1:59:33 PM UTC-6, Cappeca wrote:
>
> > Seriously, next time we do a non-G1 cartoon, you *can* pass it up if you feel
> > like so, we wouldn't want you to try too hard and strain a muscle.
>
> Aw, don't be mean. One of the reasons I resurrected the Cartoon Viewing Club was because I *wanted* to watch episodes I hadn't seen before. I was just relying on you guys to pick the episodes, because I don't know the good episodes from the bad ones. Neither does Gustavo, either, apparently. (Oh, stop giving me that look. I kid because I care. And because I'm a sarcastic jerk.)

I assure you, it is one of the better episodes. It is a very human centric episode, though.

> > I love the vehicons, but I'm a troop builder myself. The concept of drones is
> > not strange to Transformers, coming from the G1 Insecticons, through
> > Masterforce, through Beast Machines, through Armada right up to Energon.
>
> The advantage of disposable drones, from a storytelling standpoint, is that it allows the good guys to score kills without reducing the number of feature-character bad guys. Again, it's a time-honored tradition (the Vipers in G.I. Joe; the stormtroopers in Star Wars; the Foot Soldiers in Ninja Turtles) but it's also complemented by feature characters. Shrapnel and Bombshell and Kickback were always there in addition to the Insecticon clones. The Sweeps never operated all by themselves; they were always flanked by Scourge and Cyclonus.

I've slowly come to the conclusion that Scourge often hid, and let one of the Sweeps take his place and pretend to be Scourge.

And you cannot prove that I am wrong..

> To me, the drone characters are just so utterly uninteresting. The Sweeps and Vipers and stormtroopers are slightly more appealing because they have distinct voices and mannerisms and it's possible to intuit a little, but not much, about their characters. Foot Soldiers and Vehicon drones (from Beast Machines or Transformers: Prime) are far less appealing because they don't even talk.

Not as unappealing as Bumblebee, who is a named character who doesn't talk!

[Zobovor]

On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 8:15:06 PM UTC-6, Velvet Glove wrote:

> I think for Transformers Prime (and certainly coming to it as an adult viewer
> rather than a child), it's best to start at the start.

Hey, Velvet Glove! Look, everybody, it's Velvet Glove!

> For the purposes of the cartoon viewing club, I don't know if it would have

> been easy to jump in at the start.

Well, then, we learned something. We learned that if I ever want to watch more of this series, I probably need to start at the beginning.

> That said, Zob, if you failed to notice the music, I have no sympathy for
> you. I mean, seriously... Prime's music is gorgeous.

It sounds exactly like the score to the live-action films to me. Lots of brooding strings. It helped to set the mood, so it did its job, but I didn't walk away from the episode humming any of its themes.

> No, I have no idea how long it's been since I posted. I meant to pop back
> when you did FFoD, but it never happened.

I hereby nominate you to suggest the November episode. That way, if it's one that you like, maybe we might see some participation from you. :)


Zob (no pressure)

[Velvet Glove]

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 3:24:41 PM UTC-4, Zobovor wrote:

> I hereby nominate you to suggest the November episode. That way, if it's one that you like, maybe we might see some participation from you. :)

An opportunity for me to make you watch another modern day episode and then disappear for another two years? How can I refuse?!

I fell in love pretty hard with Rescue Bots which my kids choose pretty frequently on Netflix. You've not done Rescue Bots in the cartoon club before, right? That's definitely more kiddie than Transformers Prime, but it's also easier to jump into for just one episode. The thing to bear in mind with Rescue Bots that this isn't Autobots vs Decepticons and ongoing epic war... It's more a solve-a-new-scifi-problem-every-week kind of show that just happens to feature Autobots in its core cast.

I know Gustavo loves the flobsters, but if I'm choosing, I'm going for another season one episode: "Deep Trouble." It's readily available on Netflix, not sure about youtube.

Velvet Glove (And I am not making any promises to contribute, even if it is my suggestion, so nyah.)

PS For the record, Zob, in Rescue Bots continuity, only the Burns family know they're sentient aliens... everybody else thinks they're robots operated by the Burns family.

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 5:18:40 PM UTC-7, Velvet Glove wrote:
> On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 3:24:41 PM UTC-4, Zobovor wrote:
>
> > I hereby nominate you to suggest the November episode. That way, if it's one that you like, maybe we might see some participation from you. :)
>
>
> An opportunity for me to make you watch another modern day episode and then disappear for another two years? How can I refuse?!

> I know Gustavo loves the flobsters, but if I'm choosing, I'm going for another season one episode: "Deep Trouble." It's readily available on Netflix, not sure about youtube.

I don't remember "Deep Trouble", but it's going to be hard pressed to get to the level of "Flobsters on Parade". Does it have floating crustaceans? Do the heroes subdue the threat and then eat it?

Honestly, I think it is the only episode of Transformers in any continuity where the heroes eat the threat once it has been rendered helpless. Imagine if the Autobots had defeated Lord Chumly, and then handed him over to Spike and Sparkplug to eat! That's the drama of "Flobsters on Parade!"

[Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats]

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 12:24:41 PM UTC-7, Zobovor wrote:
> On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 8:15:06 PM UTC-6, Velvet Glove wrote:
>
> > I think for Transformers Prime (and certainly coming to it as an adult viewer
> > rather than a child), it's best to start at the start.
>
> Hey, Velvet Glove! Look, everybody, it's Velvet Glove!

Crap, I somehow missed her post!

> > For the purposes of the cartoon viewing club, I don't know if it would have
> > been easy to jump in at the start.
>
> Well, then, we learned something. We learned that if I ever want to watch more of this series, I probably need to start at the beginning.

If you ever want to watch TF:Energon, I recommend starting with the final episode. That way, it's over faster.

> > That said, Zob, if you failed to notice the music, I have no sympathy for
> > you. I mean, seriously... Prime's music is gorgeous.
>
> It sounds exactly like the score to the live-action films to me. Lots of brooding strings. It helped to set the mood, so it did its job, but I didn't walk away from the episode humming any of its themes.

Then you have no soul.

[Velvet Glove]

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 5:26:13 AM UTC-4, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
> I don't remember "Deep Trouble", but it's going to be hard pressed to get to the level of "Flobsters on Parade". Does it have floating crustaceans? Do the heroes subdue the threat and then eat it?

Way to spoil the ending! Now we'll never be able to do "Flobsters on Parade"!

Velvet Glove (OK. I've missed you guys. I should de-lurk more often.)

[banzait...@gmail.com]

> I'm sure it's got something to do with the premise of the show, or at least the first season, but I was essentially a first-time viewer

I've seen you reference before that you did not watch this series, but I honestly thought you were joking. I was a late viewer, started watching between seasons 2 & 3. As a life long transformers fan, all I can say is that I envy you for having so much unearthed content to enjoy. TF Prime is hands down the best transformers cartoon ever produced, (not including TFTM).
I am a huge G1 fan, and based on the sheer classic nature of G1, I recognize that it will always be number one in my book. But I can recognize how amazing TF Prime was. The last few episodes of the series were easily better than anything from G1 (again, if you strip out the nostalgia and classic aspects).
It's a bit like comparing a the Ferrari 308 GTS (Magnum PI) with a 2015 corvette Z06. The Corvette is superior in EVERY measure imaginable, but given the opportunity to own one for a day, I would rather drive the 308 GTS.
Do yourself a favor, buy the boxed sets, and watch them back to back to back. The series is a legitimate powerhouse of Transformer history that will hold up for decades (unlike every other series produced since G1). If you do, I am confident you will gladly eat your words on a silicon wafer.

-Banzaitron