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Steve from Colorado
Apr 30, 2018, 12:13:26 AM4/30/18
to
I found this interesting, as I have been trying to keep an old Gateway
computer alive by loading Ubuntu Linux on it. I found a replacement
battery for it at Batteries Plus, but the battery proved defective. This
article makes me hate billionaire Bill Gates even more than I already
did. -- Steve
Electronics-recycling innovator is going to prison for trying to extend
computers' lives
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright-20180426-story.html
latimes.com
Electronics-recycling innovator is going to prison for trying to extend
computers' lives
Washington Post
Electronics-recycling innovator is going to prison for trying to extend
computers' lives
Eric Lundgren dismantles e-waste for hybrid recycling at his facility in
Chatsworth. (David Sprague)
A Southern California man who built a sizable business out of recycling
electronic waste is headed to federal prison for 15 months after a
federal appeals court in Miami rejected his claim that the "restore
discs" he made to extend computers' lives had no financial value,
instead ruling that he had infringed on Microsoft Corp. to the tune of
$700,000.
The appeals court upheld a federal district judge's ruling that the
discs Eric Lundgren made to restore Microsoft operating systems had a
value of $25 apiece, even though the software they contained could be
downloaded free and the discs could only be used on computers that
already had a valid Microsoft license. The U.S. 11th Circuit Court of
Appeals initially granted Lundgren an emergency stay of his prison
sentence, shortly before he was to surrender, but then affirmed his
original 15-month sentence and $50,000 fine without hearing oral
argument in a ruling issued April 11.
Lundgren, 33, has become a renowned innovator in the field of electronic
waste, or e-waste, using discarded parts to do things such as construct
an electric car, which in a test far outdistanced a Tesla on a single
charge. He built the first "electronic hybrid recycling" facility in the
United States, which turns discarded cellphones and other electronics
into functional devices, slowing the stream of harmful chemicals and
metals contained in those devices into landfills and the environment.
His Chatsworth company, IT Asset Partners, processes more than 41
million pounds of e-waste each year and counts IBM, Motorola and Sprint
among its clients.
"This is a difficult sentencing," U.S. District Judge Daniel T.K. Hurley
told him last year, "because I credit everything you are telling me. You
are a very remarkable person."
Before he launched IT Asset Partners, Lundgren lived in China learning
about the stream of e-waste, and also finding ways to send cheap parts
to the U.S. to keep electronics running. One of his projects was to
manufacture thousands of "restore discs," supplied by computer makers as
a way for users to restore Windows software to a hard drive if it
crashes or must be erased. The discs can only be used on a computer that
already has a license for the Windows operating system, and the license
transfers with the computer for its full life span. But computer owners
often lose or throw out the discs, and though the operating system can
be downloaded free on a licensed computer, Lundgren realized that many
people didn't feel competent to do that, and were simply throwing out
their computers and buying new ones.
Lundgren had 28,000 of the discs made and shipped to a broker in
Florida. Their plan was to sell the discs to computer refurbishing shops
for about 25 cents apiece, so the refurbishers could provide the discs
to used-computer buyers and wouldn't have to take the time to create the
discs themselves. And the new user might be able to use the disc to keep
their computer going the next time a problem occurred.
But in 2012, U.S. Customs officers seized a shipment of discs and began
investigating. The discs were never sold. Eventually, the Florida
broker, Robert Wolff, called Lundgren and offered to buy the discs
himself as part of a government sting, Lundgren said. Wolff sent
Lundgren $3,400 and the conspiracy was cemented. Both were indicted on a
charge of conspiracy to traffic in counterfeit goods and criminal
copyright infringement. Wolff made a plea deal and received a sentence
of six months of home arrest.
Lundgren pleaded guilty but argued that the value of his discs was zero,
so there was no harm to anyone. Neither Microsoft nor any computer
manufacturers sell restore discs. They supply them free with new
computers, and make the software available for free downloading, for
those who have paid for the software and received a license — typically
a sticker with a "certificate of authenticity" number on it. Lundgren
said that he was trying to make the discs available again for those who
needed them, and that they could only be used on licensed computers.
Initially, federal prosecutors valued the discs at $299 each, or the
cost of a brand new Windows operating system, and Lundgren's indictment
alleged he had cost Microsoft $8.3 million in lost sales. By the time of
sentencing, a Microsoft letter to Hurley and a Microsoft expert witness
had reduced the value of the discs to $25, stating that was what
Microsoft charged refurbishers for the discs.
But both the letter and the expert were pricing a disc that came with a
Microsoft license. "These sales of counterfeit operating systems
displaced Microsoft's potential sales of genuine operating systems,"
Microsoft lawyer Bonnie MacNaughton wrote to the judge. But Lundgren's
discs had no license; they were intended for computers that already had
licenses.
Glenn Weadock, a former expert witness for the government in its
antitrust case against Microsoft, was asked: "In your opinion, without a
code, either product key or COA [certificate of authenticity], what is
the value of these reinstallation discs?"
"Zero or near zero," Weadock said.
Why would anybody pay for one? Lundgren's lawyer asked.
"There is a convenience factor associated with them," Weadock said.
Still, Hurley decided that Lundgren's 28,000 restore discs had a value
of $700,000, and that dollar amount qualified Lundgren for a 15-month
term, along with a $50,000 fine. The judge said he disregarded Weadock's
testimony. "I don't think anybody in that courtroom understood what a
restore disc was," Lundgren said.
A three-judge panel of the 11th Circuit deferred to Hurley in his
judgment that Weadock was not credible, and that "while experts on both
sides may have identified differences in functionality in the discs,
[Hurley] did not clearly err in finding them substantially equivalent."
Randall Newman, Lundgren's lawyer on the appeal, said there was no basis
to seek a rehearing from the full 11th Circuit. Lundgren said an appeal
to the U.S. Supreme Court would be a costly long shot.
But he said the court had set a precedent for Microsoft and other
software makers to pursue criminal cases against those seeking to extend
the lifespans of computers. "I got in the way of their agenda," Lundgren
said, "this profit model that's way more profitable than I could ever be."
Lundgren said he wasn't sure when he would be surrendering. He said
prosecutors in Miami told him he could have a couple of weeks to put his
financial affairs in order, including plans for his company of more than
100 employees. "But I was told if I got loud in the media, they'd come
pick me up," Lundgren said. "If you want to take my liberty, I'm going
to get loud."
A spokeswoman for the U.S. attorney's office in Miami declined to
comment Monday.
"I am going to prison, and I've accepted it," Lundgren said Monday.
"What I'm not OK with is people not understanding why I'm going to
prison. Hopefully my story can shine some light on the e-waste epidemic
we have in the United States, how wasteful we are. At what point do
people stand up and say something? I didn't say something, I just did it."
--
"The world is one big prison yard; some of us are prisoners and some of
us are guards." Bob Dylan
www.globalgulag.us
computer alive by loading Ubuntu Linux on it. I found a replacement
battery for it at Batteries Plus, but the battery proved defective. This
article makes me hate billionaire Bill Gates even more than I already
did. -- Steve
Electronics-recycling innovator is going to prison for trying to extend
computers' lives
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright-20180426-story.html
latimes.com
Electronics-recycling innovator is going to prison for trying to extend
computers' lives
Washington Post
Electronics-recycling innovator is going to prison for trying to extend
computers' lives
Eric Lundgren dismantles e-waste for hybrid recycling at his facility in
Chatsworth. (David Sprague)
A Southern California man who built a sizable business out of recycling
electronic waste is headed to federal prison for 15 months after a
federal appeals court in Miami rejected his claim that the "restore
discs" he made to extend computers' lives had no financial value,
instead ruling that he had infringed on Microsoft Corp. to the tune of
$700,000.
The appeals court upheld a federal district judge's ruling that the
discs Eric Lundgren made to restore Microsoft operating systems had a
value of $25 apiece, even though the software they contained could be
downloaded free and the discs could only be used on computers that
already had a valid Microsoft license. The U.S. 11th Circuit Court of
Appeals initially granted Lundgren an emergency stay of his prison
sentence, shortly before he was to surrender, but then affirmed his
original 15-month sentence and $50,000 fine without hearing oral
argument in a ruling issued April 11.
Lundgren, 33, has become a renowned innovator in the field of electronic
waste, or e-waste, using discarded parts to do things such as construct
an electric car, which in a test far outdistanced a Tesla on a single
charge. He built the first "electronic hybrid recycling" facility in the
United States, which turns discarded cellphones and other electronics
into functional devices, slowing the stream of harmful chemicals and
metals contained in those devices into landfills and the environment.
His Chatsworth company, IT Asset Partners, processes more than 41
million pounds of e-waste each year and counts IBM, Motorola and Sprint
among its clients.
"This is a difficult sentencing," U.S. District Judge Daniel T.K. Hurley
told him last year, "because I credit everything you are telling me. You
are a very remarkable person."
Before he launched IT Asset Partners, Lundgren lived in China learning
about the stream of e-waste, and also finding ways to send cheap parts
to the U.S. to keep electronics running. One of his projects was to
manufacture thousands of "restore discs," supplied by computer makers as
a way for users to restore Windows software to a hard drive if it
crashes or must be erased. The discs can only be used on a computer that
already has a license for the Windows operating system, and the license
transfers with the computer for its full life span. But computer owners
often lose or throw out the discs, and though the operating system can
be downloaded free on a licensed computer, Lundgren realized that many
people didn't feel competent to do that, and were simply throwing out
their computers and buying new ones.
Lundgren had 28,000 of the discs made and shipped to a broker in
Florida. Their plan was to sell the discs to computer refurbishing shops
for about 25 cents apiece, so the refurbishers could provide the discs
to used-computer buyers and wouldn't have to take the time to create the
discs themselves. And the new user might be able to use the disc to keep
their computer going the next time a problem occurred.
But in 2012, U.S. Customs officers seized a shipment of discs and began
investigating. The discs were never sold. Eventually, the Florida
broker, Robert Wolff, called Lundgren and offered to buy the discs
himself as part of a government sting, Lundgren said. Wolff sent
Lundgren $3,400 and the conspiracy was cemented. Both were indicted on a
charge of conspiracy to traffic in counterfeit goods and criminal
copyright infringement. Wolff made a plea deal and received a sentence
of six months of home arrest.
Lundgren pleaded guilty but argued that the value of his discs was zero,
so there was no harm to anyone. Neither Microsoft nor any computer
manufacturers sell restore discs. They supply them free with new
computers, and make the software available for free downloading, for
those who have paid for the software and received a license — typically
a sticker with a "certificate of authenticity" number on it. Lundgren
said that he was trying to make the discs available again for those who
needed them, and that they could only be used on licensed computers.
Initially, federal prosecutors valued the discs at $299 each, or the
cost of a brand new Windows operating system, and Lundgren's indictment
alleged he had cost Microsoft $8.3 million in lost sales. By the time of
sentencing, a Microsoft letter to Hurley and a Microsoft expert witness
had reduced the value of the discs to $25, stating that was what
Microsoft charged refurbishers for the discs.
But both the letter and the expert were pricing a disc that came with a
Microsoft license. "These sales of counterfeit operating systems
displaced Microsoft's potential sales of genuine operating systems,"
Microsoft lawyer Bonnie MacNaughton wrote to the judge. But Lundgren's
discs had no license; they were intended for computers that already had
licenses.
Glenn Weadock, a former expert witness for the government in its
antitrust case against Microsoft, was asked: "In your opinion, without a
code, either product key or COA [certificate of authenticity], what is
the value of these reinstallation discs?"
"Zero or near zero," Weadock said.
Why would anybody pay for one? Lundgren's lawyer asked.
"There is a convenience factor associated with them," Weadock said.
Still, Hurley decided that Lundgren's 28,000 restore discs had a value
of $700,000, and that dollar amount qualified Lundgren for a 15-month
term, along with a $50,000 fine. The judge said he disregarded Weadock's
testimony. "I don't think anybody in that courtroom understood what a
restore disc was," Lundgren said.
A three-judge panel of the 11th Circuit deferred to Hurley in his
judgment that Weadock was not credible, and that "while experts on both
sides may have identified differences in functionality in the discs,
[Hurley] did not clearly err in finding them substantially equivalent."
Randall Newman, Lundgren's lawyer on the appeal, said there was no basis
to seek a rehearing from the full 11th Circuit. Lundgren said an appeal
to the U.S. Supreme Court would be a costly long shot.
But he said the court had set a precedent for Microsoft and other
software makers to pursue criminal cases against those seeking to extend
the lifespans of computers. "I got in the way of their agenda," Lundgren
said, "this profit model that's way more profitable than I could ever be."
Lundgren said he wasn't sure when he would be surrendering. He said
prosecutors in Miami told him he could have a couple of weeks to put his
financial affairs in order, including plans for his company of more than
100 employees. "But I was told if I got loud in the media, they'd come
pick me up," Lundgren said. "If you want to take my liberty, I'm going
to get loud."
A spokeswoman for the U.S. attorney's office in Miami declined to
comment Monday.
"I am going to prison, and I've accepted it," Lundgren said Monday.
"What I'm not OK with is people not understanding why I'm going to
prison. Hopefully my story can shine some light on the e-waste epidemic
we have in the United States, how wasteful we are. At what point do
people stand up and say something? I didn't say something, I just did it."
--
"The world is one big prison yard; some of us are prisoners and some of
us are guards." Bob Dylan
www.globalgulag.us
PaxPerPoten
Apr 30, 2018, 12:48:44 AM4/30/18
to
Obama stuck us with Net Neutrality. Also Mr Trump could have stopped
that legislation cold. Just as an example ..Google Email will not allow
you to have an add Blocker and will cancel mail to your computer...But
will allow you to get mail at the web-page as it is anti-web-blocker..
As is Yahoo. Folks it looks like it is time to tell the Net
$Zillionaires to fuck off and with great care pay for private EMail that
is not owned secretly by the silicon Valley crooks. I am still waiting
for someone to off that nasty crooked Jew Zuckerberg. Gates and his
crew should be horsewhipped as they have broken a lot of American laws
and international laws and walk away free. Much of our Secret
documentation loss is due to the shitty security coding of
Microsoft...and I would never doubt that these people actually trade our
secrets fo legal immunity in many lands. Any net organization that uses
our taxpayer paid net to expound political clout should be arrested, all
assets siezed as booty from criminal enterprise and locked up the same
as any murdering scum...Like forever...And Gitmo is just the proper
place for them. May MICROSOFT ROT IN HELL!
>
--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster
CanopyCo
Apr 30, 2018, 8:55:28 AM4/30/18
to
Not just micro shaft, but everyone associated with this criminal prosecution.
This guy was prosecuted for putting free software on a disk and making it easy to use.
Prosecuting him was bullshit and the court should have known that.
I guess what he should have done was make a disk that went on line and installed the software from the web page.
That way he didn’t supply the software, he just got paid to install it.
Of course, that wouldn’t work nearly as well because they web pages would change now and then so that the program would no longer work.
This guy was prosecuted for putting free software on a disk and making it easy to use.
Prosecuting him was bullshit and the court should have known that.
I guess what he should have done was make a disk that went on line and installed the software from the web page.
That way he didn’t supply the software, he just got paid to install it.
Of course, that wouldn’t work nearly as well because they web pages would change now and then so that the program would no longer work.
Steve from Colorado
Apr 30, 2018, 2:01:46 PM4/30/18
to
Steve from Colorado
Apr 30, 2018, 2:11:50 PM4/30/18
to
whole legal hassle with Micro$oft. With Micro$oft'$ latest terms and
conditions of use whereby they act as the guardians of morality and
threaten to pull one's license if one uses "offensive" language on the
world wide web or in an email, people should be looking to dump Windows
altogether, IMHO.
Terry Coombs
Apr 30, 2018, 2:39:06 PM4/30/18
to
On 4/30/2018 1:11 PM, Steve from Colorado wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 06:55 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
>> Not just micro shaft, but everyone associated with this criminal
>> prosecution.
>> This guy was prosecuted for putting free software on a disk and
>> making it easy to use.
>> Prosecuting him was bullshit and the court should have known that.
>>
>> I guess what he should have done was make a disk that went on line
>> and installed the software from the web page.
>> That way he didn’t supply the software, he just got paid to install it.
>>
>> Of course, that wouldn’t work nearly as well because they web pages
>> would change now and then so that the program would no longer work.
>>
>>
>
> He should have just installed Linux on the used PCs and avoided the
> whole legal hassle with Micro$oft. With Micro$oft'$ latest terms and
> conditions of use whereby they act as the guardians of morality and
> threaten to pull one's license if one uses "offensive" language on the
> world wide web or in an email, people should be looking to dump
> Windows altogether, IMHO.
>
I'm not sure why , but in the last year or so I've had licenses on
> On 04/30/2018 06:55 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
>> Not just micro shaft, but everyone associated with this criminal
>> prosecution.
>> This guy was prosecuted for putting free software on a disk and
>> making it easy to use.
>> Prosecuting him was bullshit and the court should have known that.
>>
>> I guess what he should have done was make a disk that went on line
>> and installed the software from the web page.
>> That way he didn’t supply the software, he just got paid to install it.
>>
>> Of course, that wouldn’t work nearly as well because they web pages
>> would change now and then so that the program would no longer work.
>>
>>
>
> He should have just installed Linux on the used PCs and avoided the
> whole legal hassle with Micro$oft. With Micro$oft'$ latest terms and
> conditions of use whereby they act as the guardians of morality and
> threaten to pull one's license if one uses "offensive" language on the
> world wide web or in an email, people should be looking to dump
> Windows altogether, IMHO.
>
Win7Pro/64 yanked . I purchased these online , they're from dead comps
and they validated and activated normally . The last time it happened I
tried to reload and got a message that the number has been blocked by M$
- not that it wasn't valid , but it had been blocked . Rather pissed me
off , it did ! If the wife wasn't so completely and totally against
learning a new OS I'd be running Ubuntu on my whole network .
--
Snag
Ain't no dollar sign on
peace of mind - Zac Brown
Steve from Colorado
Apr 30, 2018, 3:01:00 PM4/30/18
to
I would suggest you tell your wife that the only thing that prevents
evil from prevailing is for good women to do nothing.
Frank
Apr 30, 2018, 3:05:36 PM4/30/18
to
to an unusable crawl the only way my son could restore it was in Linux
but I just could not get it to connect to WiFi. He couldn't ether and
had set it up with an Ethernet connection in his home.
Computer was old and memory at max so I bought a Win 8 replacement (now
Win 10) but for some reason documents I was preparing for a client in
Libre Office or Open Office would not display embedded images in MS
Word, so I had to buy and install MS Word.
I'm sure computer gurus could work around all these things in Linux but
unfortunately most of the programs we use are designed to work with
Windows and most of us are not computer literate enough to work around
the obstacles.
4jMSQ⚛← ╬ 𝑴𝒊𝒈𝒉𝒕𝒚 𝑾𝒂𝒏𝒏𝒂𝒃𝒆 ╬ →⚛5XG5
Apr 30, 2018, 3:26:59 PM4/30/18
to
has been activated too many times.
I would guess that the guy had sold the same registration number to many
people.
Winston_Smith
Apr 30, 2018, 3:35:28 PM4/30/18
to
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:40:03 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:
> I'm not sure why , but in the last year or so I've had licenses on
>Win7Pro/64 yanked . I purchased these online , they're from dead comps
>and they validated and activated normally . The last time it happened I
>tried to reload and got a message that the number has been blocked by M$
>- not that it wasn't valid , but it had been blocked . Rather pissed me
>off , it did !
Some years back I installed Adobe Pro7 and it ran fine for a few
> I'm not sure why , but in the last year or so I've had licenses on
>Win7Pro/64 yanked . I purchased these online , they're from dead comps
>and they validated and activated normally . The last time it happened I
>tried to reload and got a message that the number has been blocked by M$
>- not that it wasn't valid , but it had been blocked . Rather pissed me
>off , it did !
years. I changed out something, forget if it was significant setup
change or a piece of plug-in hardware like the video or wi-fi card.
Either way, that changes the "finger print" of the computer. Adobe Pro
decided I had to re-activate. OK, I let it. Came back that I was only
allowed to install it on one computer and this wasn't the one.
Hey, it's the same computer, same MB, same CPU, same BIOS, same OS. I
messed with one component.
===
Gates has long advocated licensing by the year. Forced obsolescence
even if the product is working and you are happy with it. That's where
all software is going.
I've been retired for some years and back then the company was already
buying annual licenses for some of our high end design applications.
Even then it didn't buy us much, no significant upgrades. After a few
years they would re-name the product - often with little change - and
discontinue renewal, so you had to both fork up for a new purchase and
pay by the year.
===
Some time back a scammer called and told me my MS licence had expired
and everything would be dumped if I didn't renew promptly.
I explained that can't be because I just renewed with the scammer that
called last week. A pause and they hung up on me.
;>} Me,1; scammer, 0.
Last week I got a call. It used to be "your computer is throwing
errors". That's changed to "your iPad". Except I don't own one. They
also used to have me press 1 to speak/play with a live crook, now I
have to call an 800 number. I'm betting that gets them off some sort
of legal hook.
___
"It's now authoritarian vs. libertarian, since
Democrats vs. Republicans has been obliterated,
no real difference between parties."
-- Matt Drudge
adminisatyr
Apr 30, 2018, 3:42:21 PM4/30/18
to
120 days. It would likely be worth your effort to pull one out and dust
it off after waiting over 4 months and see if it works for you.
Steve from Colorado
Apr 30, 2018, 7:22:29 PM4/30/18
to
number, but the real number might be from some island in the Caribbean
where you automatically get charged hundreds of dollars per minute,
which you can't fight due to some international agreements only they
know up front. Never call back a number you don't recognize.
rbowman
Apr 30, 2018, 9:02:05 PM4/30/18
to
On 04/30/2018 12:11 PM, Steve from Colorado wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 06:55 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
>> Not just micro shaft, but everyone associated with this criminal
>> prosecution.
>> This guy was prosecuted for putting free software on a disk and making
>> it easy to use.
>> Prosecuting him was bullshit and the court should have known that.
>>
>> I guess what he should have done was make a disk that went on line and
>> installed the software from the web page.
>> That way he didn’t supply the software, he just got paid to install it.
>>
>> Of course, that wouldn’t work nearly as well because they web pages
>> would change now and then so that the program would no longer work.
>>
>>
>
> He should have just installed Linux on the used PCs and avoided the
> whole legal hassle with Micro$oft. With Micro$oft'$ latest terms and
> conditions of use whereby they act as the guardians of morality and
> threaten to pull one's license if one uses "offensive" language on the
> world wide web or in an email, people should be looking to dump Windows
> altogether, IMHO.
>
iirc I had an email client that would gently hint that I might want to
> On 04/30/2018 06:55 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
>> Not just micro shaft, but everyone associated with this criminal
>> prosecution.
>> This guy was prosecuted for putting free software on a disk and making
>> it easy to use.
>> Prosecuting him was bullshit and the court should have known that.
>>
>> I guess what he should have done was make a disk that went on line and
>> installed the software from the web page.
>> That way he didn’t supply the software, he just got paid to install it.
>>
>> Of course, that wouldn’t work nearly as well because they web pages
>> would change now and then so that the program would no longer work.
>>
>>
>
> He should have just installed Linux on the used PCs and avoided the
> whole legal hassle with Micro$oft. With Micro$oft'$ latest terms and
> conditions of use whereby they act as the guardians of morality and
> threaten to pull one's license if one uses "offensive" language on the
> world wide web or in an email, people should be looking to dump Windows
> altogether, IMHO.
>
tone my language down. 'Fuck you' said I as I dumped it.
I do find it cute that when you ask Siri for a second definition of
'mother' she replies that it's short for motherfucker.
rbowman
Apr 30, 2018, 9:05:48 PM4/30/18
to
On 04/30/2018 01:05 PM, Frank wrote:
> Computer was old and memory at max so I bought a Win 8 replacement (now
> Win 10) but for some reason documents I was preparing for a client in
> Libre Office or Open Office would not display embedded images in MS
> Word, so I had to buy and install MS Word.
>
> I'm sure computer gurus could work around all these things in Linux but
> unfortunately most of the programs we use are designed to work with
> Windows and most of us are not computer literate enough to work around
> the obstacles.
Libre Office gets the job done but it doesn't play well with Word. We
> Computer was old and memory at max so I bought a Win 8 replacement (now
> Win 10) but for some reason documents I was preparing for a client in
> Libre Office or Open Office would not display embedded images in MS
> Word, so I had to buy and install MS Word.
>
> I'm sure computer gurus could work around all these things in Linux but
> unfortunately most of the programs we use are designed to work with
> Windows and most of us are not computer literate enough to work around
> the obstacles.
tend to get requirements documents in docx and trying to edit them in
LibreOffice is a disaster.
disclaimer: most things I do in Libre Office are a disaster. If it can't
be done in gVim it doesn't need doing.
Steve from Colorado
Apr 30, 2018, 9:08:21 PM4/30/18
to
car near where Glenn Spencer's ranch is along the border near Sierra
Vista, and Siri slyly blurted out "Even I surprise myself sometimes." I
took it as a tacit admission she was spying on us for Big Brother. I
praised Siri for her candidness.
news18
Apr 30, 2018, 9:49:40 PM4/30/18
to
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:40:03 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
> I'm not sure why , but in the last year or so I've had licenses on
> Win7Pro/64 yanked . I purchased these online , they're from dead comps
> and they validated and activated normally .
Ahh, mine came with an install DVD that looked genune.
> Win7Pro/64 yanked . I purchased these online , they're from dead comps
> and they validated and activated normally .
> The last time it happened I
> tried to reload and got a message that the number has been blocked by M$
> - not that it wasn't valid , but it had been blocked . Rather pissed me
> off , it did ! If the wife wasn't so completely and totally against
> learning a new OS I'd be running Ubuntu on my whole network .
It might/should(?) be possible to run all MS software under one of the
emulations like Wine(roll your own), Codeweavers($) or PlayOnLinux(free).
I had an easier situation in that we ran WordPerfect and when that
finally died, swmbo'd could use a linux redhat(?) computer running Star/
Open/Libre Office or MS Word on MS OS. After struggling with word, she
decided that the least worse was the FOSS stuff and the MS boxen was
eventually retired. The decision was probably helped that I refused to
assist here with any MS software(commercial rates only, no freebees), but
I'd solve any problem she encountered via the Linux boxen for free.
bookburn
May 1, 2018, 5:05:45 PM5/1/18
to
But I suppose one might consider a new computer, maybe when something new comes out.
So, I guess it's getting around to re-installing the A: somehow.
Steve from Colorado
May 1, 2018, 6:30:54 PM5/1/18
to
bookburn
May 1, 2018, 9:19:06 PM5/1/18
to
Winston_Smith
May 2, 2018, 12:47:01 AM5/2/18
to
On Tue, 1 May 2018 14:05:44 -0700 (PDT), bookburn wrote:
>My 2001 Sony Media Edition has worked well, until I upgraded to XP-Pro3, then found some programs wouldn't run. Wiped the drive, added a supplementary drive, and have the Linux 18.3 along with a re-install of the Media Edition, but find the OS bios won't recognize an A: drive, which I like to use for old 3.5 floppies as backup.
USB floppy drives are common and cheap. Just for what it's worth, I
>My 2001 Sony Media Edition has worked well, until I upgraded to XP-Pro3, then found some programs wouldn't run. Wiped the drive, added a supplementary drive, and have the Linux 18.3 along with a re-install of the Media Edition, but find the OS bios won't recognize an A: drive, which I like to use for old 3.5 floppies as backup.
still have one or two working LS-120 super-floppy drives (120
MB/floppy; optical steering of a magnetic head). I prize them because
they will read a deteriorated conventional floppy when nothing else
will.
>Just using the PC for handling passwords and no browsing, so I can live with it the way it is, handicapped though it is. Just like the idea of restoring it to its better days, when it could record from TV with a separate tuner.
digitize them, and write a video file to your hard drive.
CanopyCo
May 2, 2018, 10:50:52 AM5/2/18
to
I was wondering because of another thought that came to me lately.
In 2000 years, archeologists will not be able to find much information about us because we are using a medium that won’t last.
Books, if kept on a shelf will last hundreds if not thousands of years, based on existing books that are now that old.
Records will last too, and can be played with not much more than a lazy Susan, a sewing needle, and a funnel.
Paintings and photographs also last well.
VHS tapes loose there information after about 15 years.
But now days our books are digital, as is most of our photographs and music.
Digital only last as long as the capacitor on the storage drive will keep a charge, provided that you have the proper software to access it.
DVDs are better but still need the software to access them.
After all, just look at the trouble we have now with lost files.
Just think of how hard it will be to access those same files in 300 years.
So, basically I’m asking if your old floppies are still readable after all these years.
bookburn
May 2, 2018, 11:32:33 AM5/2/18
to
Frank
May 2, 2018, 12:44:25 PM5/2/18
to
as good as MS Word but they are adequate. I have some very old MS Word
docs that my new Word will not recognize but Open Office will.
Winston_Smith
May 2, 2018, 2:25:44 PM5/2/18
to
On Wed, 2 May 2018 07:50:50 -0700 (PDT), CanopyCo wrote:
>So, basically I’m asking if your old floppies are still readable after all these years.
I'm talking about the 3.5'' 1.44MB floppies. They mostly were readable
>So, basically I’m asking if your old floppies are still readable after all these years.
about ten years ago when I imaged all of them to CDs and DVDs. Some
times it took multiple tries; I'm guessing a sort of polishing of the
magnetic oxide on the mylar disk. If that didn't work there was the
LS-120 drive that read most of my trouble disks fine. I lost a few but
not many. Even then, I was big on duplicate copies of things. In a few
cases I managed to piece together a floppy from two partially readable
copies of the same thing.
And yes, I still have some 5.25'' floppies from way back in the day
and working drives. They too worked when I did the great move to
optical.
The lady that was in charge of archiving drawings and papers at the
company I last worked for taught me optical disks are only flat damn
guaranteed reliable for a few years to a decade and that's only top
grade disks under ideal storage conditions. They periodically scanned
them for errors and re-recorded them.
Heck, on my first job in the 60s, one of my projects was
"regenerating" data tapes. I automated it to the point it was just
baby sitting the drives and swapping tapes with a rather rare human
intervention to patch up data. In the process I turned young lady from
the secretary pool from a rather mediocre secretary into a pretty
decent technician. See eventually got a tech degree and continued that
path.
I'm currently in the process of moving all my optical disk stuff to
the little 2TB USB3 hard drives Seagate makes and Costco sells.
A quarter inch thick, fits in a shirt pocket.
So far I've mentally divided the material into five or six catagories.
When all the optical disks are moved to a HD, I'll copy it. In the end
I'll have everything on two identical sets of disks, in three formats,
scattered over different disks.
I'm doing a direct copy (file by file), a RAR with a >very< rich
recovery record, and an .iso. That should make everything recoverable
even if a file is corrupted over time.
I suppose someday there is the cloud but I'm VERY reluctant to go
there. But, my thinking does change over the years so I make no
promises.
The way it's going I suspect everything will be on the web in time.
The most obscure stuff is turning up regularly.
I wrote a couple pieces and posted them back in the 80s; every once in
a while I see one of them float by. I used to hang out on a usenet
group that mentored kids in tech school and every so often I see one
of my write-ups about how something works come around.
I almost suspect the internet is becoming a form of immortality. Post
something and it's there forever.
bookburn
May 2, 2018, 3:00:13 PM5/2/18
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bookburn
May 2, 2018, 3:10:05 PM5/2/18
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BTW, on the document conversion front, I've been able to make use of Calibre on occasion. Problem with OCR errors, though.
Steve from Colorado
May 2, 2018, 3:34:00 PM5/2/18
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On 05/02/2018 08:50 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
> VHS tapes loose (sic) there (sic) information after about 15 years.
Maybe not if you keep the heads demagnetized in your player and keep
tapes away from magnets. If they aren't played often, they'll stand up
longer. I have some very old, B & W early VHS tapes of the Daniel Boone
TV show, that I play for our grandson so he can see the politically
incorrect, white nationalist "programs" we used to watch. No Star Trek
for him, lol.
> VHS tapes loose (sic) there (sic) information after about 15 years.
Maybe not if you keep the heads demagnetized in your player and keep
tapes away from magnets. If they aren't played often, they'll stand up
longer. I have some very old, B & W early VHS tapes of the Daniel Boone
TV show, that I play for our grandson so he can see the politically
incorrect, white nationalist "programs" we used to watch. No Star Trek
for him, lol.
Winston_Smith
May 2, 2018, 4:17:03 PM5/2/18
to
thousands of on-line documents were unavailable in my old Word but
Open Office handles them fine.
Mostly I use it as a format converter - open .docx and save as .doc.
Then Word is happy again.
Not the first time I suspect MS of tweaking a format for no reason
except to screw up competitors. Thereby screwing their own customers
in the process.
R74sa⚛← ╬ 𝑴𝒊𝒈𝒉𝒕𝒚 𝑾𝒂𝒏𝒏𝒂𝒃𝒆 ╬ →⚛Lcg4
May 2, 2018, 5:25:15 PM5/2/18
to
Winston_Smith wrote on 5/2/2018 4:16 PM:
> On Wed, 2 May 2018 12:00:12 -0700 (PDT), bookburn wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 8:44:25 AM UTC-8, Frank wrote:
>>> I have Open Office on my laptop and it is fine. Programs might not be
>>> as good as MS Word but they are adequate. I have some very old MS Word
>>> docs that my new Word will not recognize but Open Office will.
>> Surprised to hear that, because my OO doesn't open MS Works docs, and I have to use ZamZar. I have the original MS Works install disk, but too lazy to load it.
> I have the same experience as Frank. When MS switched to .docx format,
> thousands of on-line documents were unavailable in my old Word but
> Open Office handles them fine.
>
> Mostly I use it as a format converter - open .docx and save as .doc.
> Then Word is happy again.
You can also forcibly rename the file from [.docx] to [.doc].
> On Wed, 2 May 2018 12:00:12 -0700 (PDT), bookburn wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 8:44:25 AM UTC-8, Frank wrote:
>>> I have Open Office on my laptop and it is fine. Programs might not be
>>> as good as MS Word but they are adequate. I have some very old MS Word
>>> docs that my new Word will not recognize but Open Office will.
>> Surprised to hear that, because my OO doesn't open MS Works docs, and I have to use ZamZar. I have the original MS Works install disk, but too lazy to load it.
> I have the same experience as Frank. When MS switched to .docx format,
> thousands of on-line documents were unavailable in my old Word but
> Open Office handles them fine.
>
> Mostly I use it as a format converter - open .docx and save as .doc.
> Then Word is happy again.
It will work the same if the document doesn't contain any new format
that is available only in the new version of Word.
> Not the first time I suspect MS of tweaking a format for no reason
> except to screw up competitors. Thereby screwing their own customers
> in the process.
added to the new version. They have to change the extension to [.docx]
to tell the user that the document may contain new format readable only
by the new version.
If the document doesn't contain new fancy tricks, then renaming it back
to [.doc] will work the same.
Frank
May 2, 2018, 6:49:09 PM5/2/18
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On 5/2/2018 3:33 PM, Steve from Colorado wrote:
> On 05/02/2018 08:50 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
>> VHS tapes loose (sic) there (sic) information after about 15 years.
>
> Maybe not if you keep the heads demagnetized in your player and keep
> tapes away from magnets. If they aren't played often, they'll stand up
> longer. I have some very old, B & W early VHS tapes of the Daniel Boone
> TV show, that I play for our grandson so he can see the politically
> incorrect, white nationalist "programs" we used to watch. No Star Trek
> for him, lol.
I have an old reel to reel video tape, maybe 40 years old, in black and
> On 05/02/2018 08:50 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
>> VHS tapes loose (sic) there (sic) information after about 15 years.
>
> Maybe not if you keep the heads demagnetized in your player and keep
> tapes away from magnets. If they aren't played often, they'll stand up
> longer. I have some very old, B & W early VHS tapes of the Daniel Boone
> TV show, that I play for our grandson so he can see the politically
> incorrect, white nationalist "programs" we used to watch. No Star Trek
> for him, lol.
white. Wonder if it is even worth the effort of trying to get someone
to retrieve it in modern view-able format?
rbowman
May 2, 2018, 9:54:25 PM5/2/18
to
On 05/02/2018 01:00 PM, bookburn wrote:
> Surprised to hear that, because my OO doesn't open MS Works docs, and I have to use ZamZar. I have the original MS Works install disk, but too lazy to load it.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/libwps/
> Surprised to hear that, because my OO doesn't open MS Works docs, and I have to use ZamZar. I have the original MS Works install disk, but too lazy to load it.
MS Works is to Office as Outlook Express is to Outlook. iow, vaguely
similar.
rbowman
May 2, 2018, 10:18:08 PM5/2/18
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On 05/02/2018 01:33 PM, Steve from Colorado wrote:
> On 05/02/2018 08:50 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
>> VHS tapes loose (sic) there (sic) information after about 15 years.
>
> Maybe not if you keep the heads demagnetized in your player and keep
> tapes away from magnets. If they aren't played often, they'll stand up
> longer. I have some very old, B & W early VHS tapes of the Daniel Boone
> TV show, that I play for our grandson so he can see the politically
> incorrect, white nationalist "programs" we used to watch. No Star Trek
> for him, lol.
Amazon Prime has the old Yancy Derringer shows. I doubt the faithful
> On 05/02/2018 08:50 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
>> VHS tapes loose (sic) there (sic) information after about 15 years.
>
> Maybe not if you keep the heads demagnetized in your player and keep
> tapes away from magnets. If they aren't played often, they'll stand up
> longer. I have some very old, B & W early VHS tapes of the Daniel Boone
> TV show, that I play for our grandson so he can see the politically
> incorrect, white nationalist "programs" we used to watch. No Star Trek
> for him, lol.
Pawnee played by X Brands, a full blooded German would cut it let alone
Obadiah referring to him as Marse Yancy.
'The Gray Ghost' probably won't make the menu. I don't know how many
episodes of that survived.
CanopyCo
May 3, 2018, 8:53:17 AM5/3/18
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I’m impressed at you success ratio, considering how much trouble I used to have with floppies back when they were new.
As a curiosity, what do you have on a XT floppy that is worth saving?
I’d think that tech manuals for a XT would be mostly worthless, considering the low value of the PC that they pertain to.
What you heard about the DVDs just reinforces my thinking regarding how we will lose everything eventually.
Especially with the cloud.
That is even more prone to loss, considering that it is stored on a computer that you have absolutely no control over.
When they decide to lose some files to clear up space, then they are gone.
Hopefully they will warn you first, so that you can move them yourself.
If a big rock hit tomorrow and reset us to the Stone Age, how much of this information will still exist 500 years after the rock?
I don’t think there will be much of it at all.
CanopyCo
May 3, 2018, 8:58:16 AM5/3/18
to
There are a lot of movies that never did get moved forward, so you may actually have the last copy of some rare movie.
hNkSv⚛← ╬ 𝑴𝒊𝒈𝒉𝒕𝒚 𝑾𝒂𝒏𝒏𝒂𝒃𝒆 ╬ →⚛k1CE
May 3, 2018, 9:51:26 AM5/3/18
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out some challenging Kama Sutra positions.
Don't watch. You will go blind, or suffer from PTSD.
Frank
May 3, 2018, 12:51:59 PM5/3/18
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was made chairman of our labs videotape committee and produced a video
on lab accomplishments. It was a lot of fun. We even hired a
professional actor to narrate and play the part of the lab director. A
corporate resource edited the tape which is about a half hour. It was
not a big hit but more of an experiment for the lab which invented a few
things that most people have heard about like Lycra, Nomex and Kevlar. I
learned quite a bit about video production and recall needing 15 takes
for the actor to properly say, "Reemay was made out of polypropylene."
Winston_Smith
May 3, 2018, 6:59:42 PM5/3/18
to
On Thu, 3 May 2018 05:53:15 -0700 (PDT), CanopyCo wrote:
>As a curiosity, what do you have on a XT floppy that is worth saving?
Nothing much. Mostly an archive of old programs.
>As a curiosity, what do you have on a XT floppy that is worth saving?
I have been doing school and work reports, letters, accounting, etc on
computer since my Commodore 64 days in the 70s. I'm not too sure what
that's worth but it's mine so I keep it.
>I’d think that tech manuals for a XT would be mostly worthless, considering the low value of the PC that they pertain to.
me know. I can also supply every version of DOS starting with 1.0. I
had to dig that up because that's the only version my Peanut can run.
V2.0 introduced directories and the Peanut is not up to that.
>What you heard about the DVDs just reinforces my thinking regarding how we will lose everything eventually.
with some ancient equipment. My home lab is way better than a lot of
what they had and I built it mostly off E-bay. Still - we shipped
product and it was good stuff.
I once contacted Princeton Applied Research to ask if I could get a
copy of the manual for one of their long discontinued products. They
replied they didn't have one and asked very nicely if I found one
would I send THEM a copy.
At one time companies removed the manual from their website as soon as
a product was discontinued. I'm heartened to see most of them are now
pretty rich with manuals for obsolete products. The world is learning.
>Especially with the cloud.
I'm sort of evolving my thinking. I used to favor a free standing
archive - on my equipment - of everything I'm interested in just
because I've seen how perishable history is. You find a great website
and a year later it's gone. But first usenet and now torrents and any
number of archive sites devoted to a particular subject are becoming
so rich in material, I'm starting to think the internet is
immortality.
If you post something, say a hundred people see it. Maybe 10 of them
find it valuable enough to download and save. Sooner or later one of
them will re-post it. As the number of people on the web continues to
grow, increase those numbers by a lot of zeros.
Society may have to wait a decade, but sooner or later, everything
will come around again. That only assumes the web does not collapse
for economic reasons or terrorism and that government doesn't go
hyper-regulation. Given how much critical infrastructure - and
consumer products - is now totally dependant on the net instead of
local smarts for minute to minute functionality, the web won't go down
easily.
>If a big rock hit tomorrow and reset us to the Stone Age, how much of this information will still exist 500 years after the rock?
>I don’t think there will be much of it at all.
recently as some decades ago that are known but lost. I can give you
as long a list of movies and audio recordings that are the same.
What galls me is the intentional delays to protect careers. The Dead
Sea Scrolls were not completely published for decades. Almost 50 years
if memory serves. The scholars at the museum that house them had to
reconstruct, translate, and interpret them scroll by scroll before the
public could know something even exists. Limited staff, all protective
of career making resources. Crap! Scan what you have, put it on the
web. One, it's protected from physical loss and, two, scholars around
the world can contribute.
I recall a flood in Europe a decade or three ago, Italy I think. One
of the world's premiere libraries - priceless and unique copies of
manuscripts were flat out lost to the world forever. At least a scan
would be better than nothing.
Before someone mentions scanning and the web didn't exist in the 50s
through 70s, microfilm served the same function and was cheap to
distribute.
Some of my heritage is in Wilkes_Barre Pennsylvania. A record flood in
1972 took out the county court house and with it centuries of country
records - irretrievably lost.
I found some relatives graves in Allentown, PA. The caretaker let me
see their records. On 3"x5" file cards. He commented the singe marks
were from the fire of 19xx. Nothing a day with a scanner wouldn't
preserve forever. Thank goodness, the local historical society is now
doing some of that sort of thing.
Etc, etc.
Steve from Colorado
May 3, 2018, 7:00:04 PM5/3/18
to
Java, and HTML when they first came out with Internet Explorer -- which
infuriated developers, programmers, the makers of Mosaic and Sun
Microsystems among others. They have a history of that kind of stuff.
I used to find Microsoft Office the be intuitive and easy to use, and
then over time it became less and less so.
I have an HP laptop that said it had a 60+ gigabyte solid state hard
drive, but failed to inform the potential purchaser that Windows 10
takes up all but 2 gigabytes. Whenever a Windows update comes along,
without asking the licensee whether they want the update, it notifies
the licensee that they need to delete stuff for the update to complete,
as it acts as a PacMan gobbling up the small free space on the hard
drive. We had a repair guy at our house to fix our stove who also had
an HP laptop, and when he saw that I had an HP laptop, asked me if I had
to delete stuff every time a Windows update came along.
I would have put Linux on that HP laptop, except I need at least one
Windows computer in the house in order to do maintenance and updates on
my website. If I didn't need it for the website, I'd have no use for
Windows at all.
--
In a time of universal deceit —having a Rebel (CSA) flag is a
revolutionary act.
globalgulag.us
Steve from Colorado
May 3, 2018, 7:04:54 PM5/3/18
to
although you lose the top and bottom quarters of your screen in the
letterbox format. I have an old, flat screen CRT TV that works great
for VHS movies and old game computers that use RF converters to view on
a TV.
Steve from Colorado
May 3, 2018, 7:11:45 PM5/3/18
to
to the Panama Canal Zone. The electricity there came from a power plant
the French had built when they tried digging a canal across the Isthmus,
and it outputed 25 Hertz, so TV's didn't work. We didn't go back to the
states until 1961, so I have a blank period where I missed the TV shows
like Yancy Derringer and The Gray Ghost. I looked them up on line, and
that piqued my interest. I do remember a show called The Blue and the
Grey, along with The Rifleman, Gun Smoke, Rin Tin Tin, and stuff like that.
rbowman
May 3, 2018, 10:48:08 PM5/3/18
to
On 05/03/2018 05:00 PM, Steve from Colorado wrote:
> I recall that M$ tried to make proprietary versions of Java Script,
> Java, and HTML when they first came out with Internet Explorer -- which
> infuriated developers, programmers, the makers of Mosaic and Sun
> Microsystems among others. They have a history of that kind of stuff.
I've got a 1997 copy of 'Active Visual J++' that was their initial
> I recall that M$ tried to make proprietary versions of Java Script,
> Java, and HTML when they first came out with Internet Explorer -- which
> infuriated developers, programmers, the makers of Mosaic and Sun
> Microsystems among others. They have a history of that kind of stuff.
attempt that got shot down. They were trying to wire Java to COM. By
then they had realized that C++ was a quirky pile of bat guano. After
the dust settled they laid back and worked on C#, learning from the
problems Java had. C# is a decent language.
Microsoft also learned from Oracle and submitted the specs to ECMA and
ISO and are not enforcing any patents.
news18
May 4, 2018, 2:20:02 AM5/4/18
to
On Thu, 03 May 2018 17:00:00 -0600, Steve from Colorado wrote:
> I would have put Linux on that HP laptop, except I need at least one
> Windows computer in the house in order to do maintenance and updates on
> my website. If I didn't need it for the website, I'd have no use for
> Windows at all.
Change the host. What is the lock-in?
> I would have put Linux on that HP laptop, except I need at least one
> Windows computer in the house in order to do maintenance and updates on
> my website. If I didn't need it for the website, I'd have no use for
> Windows at all.
CanopyCo
May 4, 2018, 8:34:48 AM5/4/18
to
He must be good at tong twisters.
;-)
Ok, maybe it isn’t in high demand.
On the other hand, the actor may have a following and your tape may be a part of his history.
Early understanding of Lycra, Nomex and Kevlar may also have value to someone.
Would it be a big hassle or expense to digitize it and put it on some cite for public use?
If nothing else, the great grand kids (or some other distend relative) can point to it and say that his kin did that.
If nothing else it would add to the clutter and give a Homeland Security guy something to puzzle over, trying to figure out the secret message that must be there.
After all, why else would you post such a obscure film?
;-)
CanopyCo
May 4, 2018, 9:18:13 AM5/4/18
to
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 5:59:42 PM UTC-5, Winston_Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 3 May 2018 05:53:15 -0700 (PDT), CanopyCo wrote:
>
> >As a curiosity, what do you have on a XT floppy that is worth saving?
>
> Nothing much. Mostly an archive of old programs.
>
> I have been doing school and work reports, letters, accounting, etc on
> computer since my Commodore 64 days in the 70s. I'm not too sure what
> that's worth but it's mine so I keep it.
>
Understandable.
> On Thu, 3 May 2018 05:53:15 -0700 (PDT), CanopyCo wrote:
>
> >As a curiosity, what do you have on a XT floppy that is worth saving?
>
> Nothing much. Mostly an archive of old programs.
>
> I have been doing school and work reports, letters, accounting, etc on
> computer since my Commodore 64 days in the 70s. I'm not too sure what
> that's worth but it's mine so I keep it.
>
Memories of your past.
> >I’d think that tech manuals for a XT would be mostly worthless, considering the low value of the PC that they pertain to.
>
> If you want the source code for a C64 ROM or the original IBM PC, let
> me know. I can also supply every version of DOS starting with 1.0. I
> had to dig that up because that's the only version my Peanut can run.
> V2.0 introduced directories and the Peanut is not up to that.
>
Odd, to me, but hay, most hobbies are odd to the guy that doesn’t have it.
Personally, I collect and use antique cooking gear and methods.
Like this guy for information.
https://www.youtube.com/user/jastownsendandson/videos
I don’t know what your Peanut is, but it sounds like a old laptop that I used one time, way back in the Stone Age.
Had a regular VGA monitor that was plenty small enough to be a eye sore to use.
You know, it may be of value if not interest to make a museum with running antique computers.
It would give the present generation a better idea of just how far and how fast we have progressed with computers over such a short time.
At one time I was pretty pissed at my parents for not knowing this and that.
Then I realized that most of the stuff that I was pissed about them not knowing was stuff that no one knew back then.
> >What you heard about the DVDs just reinforces my thinking regarding how we will lose everything eventually.
>
> My last company being as cheap as most of them are today, I've made do
> with some ancient equipment. My home lab is way better than a lot of
> what they had and I built it mostly off E-bay. Still - we shipped
> product and it was good stuff.
>
Made circular chart integrators for the oil field.
Guy not only was constantly trying to steal his programmer’s software and hire a cheap guy to work on it, but also had no understanding of most of what he was working with.
For example, didn’t know that AC means that the current flow alternates from + to – on the same wire.
I had to build up my own test station and gear for repairing the integrators at board level.
> I once contacted Princeton Applied Research to ask if I could get a
> copy of the manual for one of their long discontinued products. They
> replied they didn't have one and asked very nicely if I found one
> would I send THEM a copy.
>
> At one time companies removed the manual from their website as soon as
> a product was discontinued. I'm heartened to see most of them are now
> pretty rich with manuals for obsolete products. The world is learning.
>
Still, I’m not sure why someone would want a manual for a device that doesn’t do anything that is useful today that couldn’t be done better with more modern gear.
It would be nice for a collection though.
> >Especially with the cloud.
>
> I'm sort of evolving my thinking. I used to favor a free standing
> archive - on my equipment - of everything I'm interested in just
> because I've seen how perishable history is. You find a great website
> and a year later it's gone. But first usenet and now torrents and any
> number of archive sites devoted to a particular subject are becoming
> so rich in material, I'm starting to think the internet is
> immortality.
>
> If you post something, say a hundred people see it. Maybe 10 of them
> find it valuable enough to download and save. Sooner or later one of
> them will re-post it. As the number of people on the web continues to
> grow, increase those numbers by a lot of zeros.
>
I notice a lot of knowledge posted to YouTube that I’m sure is just this side of lost if it was not for YouTube.
Wagon making is a good example.
There is way more involved in that then I ever guessed just by looking at them going down a trail.
> Society may have to wait a decade, but sooner or later, everything
> will come around again. That only assumes the web does not collapse
> for economic reasons or terrorism and that government doesn't go
> hyper-regulation. Given how much critical infrastructure - and
> consumer products - is now totally dependant on the net instead of
> local smarts for minute to minute functionality, the web won't go down
> easily.
>
The possible regulation and thus removal of the web for use to the public.
The storage areas may someday become so regulated that they are nearly useless, just like YouTube is starting to do with their regulations.
The web is valuable now, but I don’t count on it for immortality because of the fact that so much of it is out of the hands of the public.
> >If a big rock hit tomorrow and reset us to the Stone Age, how much of this information will still exist 500 years after the rock?
> >I don’t think there will be much of it at all.
>
> I can give you a long list of both books from antiquity till as
> recently as some decades ago that are known but lost. I can give you
> as long a list of movies and audio recordings that are the same.
>
> What galls me is the intentional delays to protect careers. The Dead
> Sea Scrolls were not completely published for decades. Almost 50 years
> if memory serves. The scholars at the museum that house them had to
> reconstruct, translate, and interpret them scroll by scroll before the
> public could know something even exists. Limited staff, all protective
> of career making resources. Crap! Scan what you have, put it on the
> web. One, it's protected from physical loss and, two, scholars around
> the world can contribute.
>
Also what was in it is no longer hidden and that in itself pissed off plenty of religion.
> I recall a flood in Europe a decade or three ago, Italy I think. One
> of the world's premiere libraries - priceless and unique copies of
> manuscripts were flat out lost to the world forever. At least a scan
> would be better than nothing.
>
> Before someone mentions scanning and the web didn't exist in the 50s
> through 70s, microfilm served the same function and was cheap to
> distribute.
>
> Some of my heritage is in Wilkes_Barre Pennsylvania. A record flood in
> 1972 took out the county court house and with it centuries of country
> records - irretrievably lost.
>
> I found some relatives graves in Allentown, PA. The caretaker let me
> see their records. On 3"x5" file cards. He commented the singe marks
> were from the fire of 19xx. Nothing a day with a scanner wouldn't
> preserve forever. Thank goodness, the local historical society is now
> doing some of that sort of thing.
>
> Etc, etc.
>
>
If I had not gave them a copy of my DD214 they would not have even known that I served.
At least that is what they told me was the reason that I was rejected.
Blew my back out trying to load and deliver a radar assembly for a F-111 all by myself and was off work for over a week.
Went back to work because I feared the military doctors would really wreck me in surgery if I kept telling them how bad it really hurt.
Never got right after that.
But as far as they are concerned, nothing ever happened.
Handy for them.
Yes, there are a lot of records that need duplicated.
Unfortunately, there is not much incentive for the record keepers to do so in many cases.
CanopyCo
May 4, 2018, 9:27:49 AM5/4/18
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There was a toy belt buckle and gun over that show.
I ask because it is apparently showing up as a Mandela effect.
Like the Monopoly banker not having a monocle despite what I clearly remember.
Winston_Smith
May 4, 2018, 2:51:07 PM5/4/18
to
On Fri, 4 May 2018 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT), CanopyCo wrote:
>I don’t know what your Peanut is, but it sounds like a old laptop that I used one time, way back in the Stone Age.
>Had a regular VGA monitor that was plenty small enough to be a eye sore to use.
That was a scaled down IBM PC for the home market. They made sure to
>I don’t know what your Peanut is, but it sounds like a old laptop that I used one time, way back in the Stone Age.
>Had a regular VGA monitor that was plenty small enough to be a eye sore to use.
cripple it enough that it could never compete with the regular PC.
Consumers avoided it in droves.
>You know, it may be of value if not interest to make a museum with running antique computers.
>It would give the present generation a better idea of just how far and how fast we have progressed with computers over such a short time.
rpm records. I had my grandfathers wind-up but our first electric
record player was a birthday gift to me when I was very young. I'm
always amazed at the extent of change in my lifetime.
On a bigger picture - in most of my life one person could know how
most stuff worked. There is getting to be so much stuff and it's so
complex, most people are being reduced to dumb users of gizmos. They
can buy them; they can use them; but they will never know how they
work or what they may be doing on the sly. That way lays danger.
>At one time I was pretty pissed at my parents for not knowing this and that.
>Then I realized that most of the stuff that I was pissed about them not knowing was stuff that no one knew back then.
would all have one. Or it could do anything but talk.
>I notice a lot of knowledge posted to YouTube that I’m sure is just this side of lost if it was not for YouTube.
>Wagon making is a good example.
>There is way more involved in that then I ever guessed just by looking at them going down a trail.
course in obsolete technology. My schooling went back to the
foundation of what we call electronics today. That's not taught
anymore. Add to that all the "oh wow" stuff that has come and gone in
my career, there is lots of material.
Steve from Colorado
May 4, 2018, 9:58:43 PM5/4/18
to
with excellent technical support and no politically correct BS as to
what I can or cannot post, unlike other ISP's. And B: I use their
Trellix website creator which has features that only work with Internet
Explorer. They are phasing out Trellix this coming August, so I'll have
to either drop the website or find some other tool for designing and
maintaining my site. Any suggestions for a website development tool that
I could learn rather quickly and that works on a Linux platform?
Steve from Colorado
May 4, 2018, 10:39:45 PM5/4/18
to
On 05/04/2018 12:39 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
> On a bigger picture - in most of my life one person could know how
> most stuff worked. There is getting to be so much stuff and it's so
> complex, most people are being reduced to dumb users of gizmos. They
> can buy them; they can use them; but they will never know how they
> work or what they may be doing on the sly. That way lays danger.
Some famous Silicon Valley inventor / tycoon stated that modern
> On a bigger picture - in most of my life one person could know how
> most stuff worked. There is getting to be so much stuff and it's so
> complex, most people are being reduced to dumb users of gizmos. They
> can buy them; they can use them; but they will never know how they
> work or what they may be doing on the sly. That way lays danger.
technology is often indistinguishable from magic.
In Peru, Indians that have been hiding from Europeans for centuries are
coming out of hiding, because they want smart phones and other toys the
rest of the world has.
rbowman
May 4, 2018, 10:53:32 PM5/4/18
to
On 05/04/2018 08:39 PM, Steve from Colorado wrote:
>
> Some famous Silicon Valley inventor / tycoon stated that modern
> technology is often indistinguishable from magic.
If he did, he stole it...
>
> Some famous Silicon Valley inventor / tycoon stated that modern
> technology is often indistinguishable from magic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is
possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
impossible, he is very probably wrong.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a
little way past them into the impossible.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
CanopyCo
May 5, 2018, 9:11:44 AM5/5/18
to
On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-5, Winston_Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 4 May 2018 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT), CanopyCo wrote:
>
> >You know, it may be of value if not interest to make a museum with running antique computers.
> >It would give the present generation a better idea of just how far and how fast we have progressed with computers over such a short time.
>
> I remember our first TV and our first telephone. There were only 78
> rpm records. I had my grandfathers wind-up but our first electric
> record player was a birthday gift to me when I was very young. I'm
> always amazed at the extent of change in my lifetime.
>
> On a bigger picture - in most of my life one person could know how
> most stuff worked. There is getting to be so much stuff and it's so
> complex, most people are being reduced to dumb users of gizmos. They
> can buy them; they can use them; but they will never know how they
> work or what they may be doing on the sly. That way lays danger.
>
> >At one time I was pretty pissed at my parents for not knowing this and that.
> >Then I realized that most of the stuff that I was pissed about them not knowing was stuff that no one knew back then.
>
> The cell phone was Dick Tracy's two way wrist radio. Few thought we
> would all have one. Or it could do anything but talk.
>
Ya, I see science fiction becoming science all the time.
> On Fri, 4 May 2018 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT), CanopyCo wrote:
>
> >You know, it may be of value if not interest to make a museum with running antique computers.
> >It would give the present generation a better idea of just how far and how fast we have progressed with computers over such a short time.
>
> I remember our first TV and our first telephone. There were only 78
> rpm records. I had my grandfathers wind-up but our first electric
> record player was a birthday gift to me when I was very young. I'm
> always amazed at the extent of change in my lifetime.
>
> On a bigger picture - in most of my life one person could know how
> most stuff worked. There is getting to be so much stuff and it's so
> complex, most people are being reduced to dumb users of gizmos. They
> can buy them; they can use them; but they will never know how they
> work or what they may be doing on the sly. That way lays danger.
>
> >At one time I was pretty pissed at my parents for not knowing this and that.
> >Then I realized that most of the stuff that I was pissed about them not knowing was stuff that no one knew back then.
>
> The cell phone was Dick Tracy's two way wrist radio. Few thought we
> would all have one. Or it could do anything but talk.
>
Star Trek radio giving us the cell flip phone.
Then we almost have their tricorder with our smart phones running apps of all kinds.
Tracy’s wrist radio came out lately as a cell phone watch, although I think it is still just a blue tooth hookup to your smart phone right now.
We have stuff that drives itself, the one I seen was a train thing at the airport that was totally automated.
I’ve been told that airplanes can fly themselves if allowed to do so.
Cars are fixing to join that club and already park themselves.
I forgot what show I first seen that shit on.
Operations performed by robots being controlled by doctors that look like they are playing a video game when they operate.
Hard to remember that dad rode a horse to school and worked on a ranch when he was young.
Have they started on the replicator and phaser yet?
Ya, 3D printing is close, but not quite good enough for me to call it a replicator yet.
;-)
> >I notice a lot of knowledge posted to YouTube that I’m sure is just this side of lost if it was not for YouTube.
> >Wagon making is a good example.
> >There is way more involved in that then I ever guessed just by looking at them going down a trail.
>
> If I had more ambition, I'd try to interest the local colleges in a
> course in obsolete technology. My schooling went back to the
> foundation of what we call electronics today. That's not taught
> anymore. Add to that all the "oh wow" stuff that has come and gone in
> my career, there is lots of material.
That is why I was thinking museum would be the path to take.
One could be cheap to access and learning would be at one’s own speed.
Tickets could be copies of those old punch cards that they used for memory way back when a computer filled a room and had the power of a calculator.
Punch them with the owners name and date of purchase when they buy them and amaze them by reading them to them when you look at the ticket.
At one time I could read those cards and likely still can after a little orientation regarding how far down the holes start on the card.
As I recall, they were set up like one had typed something across the long side.
Then under where that line would have been typed they had holes directly under where each letter would be.
Top hole designated if it was a letter or number, then the hole under it told you what letter or number it was, in alphabetical or numerical order.
CanopyCo
May 5, 2018, 9:20:54 AM5/5/18
to
On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-5, Winston_Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 4 May 2018 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT), CanopyCo wrote:
>
> On a bigger picture - in most of my life one person could know how
> most stuff worked. There is getting to be so much stuff and it's so
> complex, most people are being reduced to dumb users of gizmos. They
> can buy them; they can use them; but they will never know how they
> work or what they may be doing on the sly. That way lays danger.
>
Yes, we are living on borrowed time.
>
> On a bigger picture - in most of my life one person could know how
> most stuff worked. There is getting to be so much stuff and it's so
> complex, most people are being reduced to dumb users of gizmos. They
> can buy them; they can use them; but they will never know how they
> work or what they may be doing on the sly. That way lays danger.
>
Way to many things that the majority of people cannot understand the workings of, and many of them are repaired by people that only understand that if you replace this part with a new one the device will work, but still have no idea how the part that they replaced worked or at times what it actually was expected to do.
Take cars for a example, with phones and PCs following right behind it.
Few can repair a smart phone or laptop, and of them even fewer know how to make the chips, transistors, capacitors, and resistors that are on the board that they swapped to fix the device.
They may be able to swap those components but can’t make them.
I think that I can still make capacitors and resistors, but the transistors and chips are out of the question.
Remember the old cat whisker radios?
Know anyone that can make a cat whisker cell phone?
:-D
CanopyCo
May 5, 2018, 9:26:42 AM5/5/18
to
On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 9:39:45 PM UTC-5, Steve from Colorado wrote:
> On 05/04/2018 12:39 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
> > On a bigger picture - in most of my life one person could know how
> > most stuff worked. There is getting to be so much stuff and it's so
> > complex, most people are being reduced to dumb users of gizmos. They
> > can buy them; they can use them; but they will never know how they
> > work or what they may be doing on the sly. That way lays danger.
>
> Some famous Silicon Valley inventor / tycoon stated that modern
> technology is often indistinguishable from magic.
>
> In Peru, Indians that have been hiding from Europeans for centuries are
> coming out of hiding, because they want smart phones and other toys the
> rest of the world has.
>
>
Oh the irony!
> On 05/04/2018 12:39 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
> > On a bigger picture - in most of my life one person could know how
> > most stuff worked. There is getting to be so much stuff and it's so
> > complex, most people are being reduced to dumb users of gizmos. They
> > can buy them; they can use them; but they will never know how they
> > work or what they may be doing on the sly. That way lays danger.
>
> Some famous Silicon Valley inventor / tycoon stated that modern
> technology is often indistinguishable from magic.
>
> In Peru, Indians that have been hiding from Europeans for centuries are
> coming out of hiding, because they want smart phones and other toys the
> rest of the world has.
>
>
They are coming out of the wilderness to have the technology while many who have the technology is trying to go to the wilderness to get away from it all.
I wonder about how this will come out in the long run.
Remember The Prime Directive, or the story about giving a loaded gun to a monkey?
I wonder how long before some ass sells a nuke to a cave man?
I can guess how that will come out.
Actually I don’t have to guess.
Just look at Africa or Korea to see that path played out.
;-)
rbowman
May 5, 2018, 1:10:03 PM5/5/18
to
On 05/05/2018 07:26 AM, CanopyCo wrote:
> I wonder how long before some ass sells a nuke to a cave man?
Netanyahu already has one. Probably.
> I wonder how long before some ass sells a nuke to a cave man?
Frank
May 5, 2018, 1:19:14 PM5/5/18
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been more interesting if I had filmed some of the original inventors a
couple of which became good friends.
I have not investigated cost. Took a quick look at Legacy Box and it is
not cheap.
Vincent
May 5, 2018, 3:55:16 PM5/5/18
to
of nuke material/Bomb/?. Funny, Kennedy got himself assassinated rather
then push the issue. LBJ gave them a pass as they were his buddies and
he also let them assassinate the USS Liberty AGTR 5 as a bonus.
rbowman
May 5, 2018, 4:57:22 PM5/5/18
to
and others the CCCP wasn't the only recipient of atomic research. There
are only three countries that never signed the non-proliferation treaty
and all three are believed to have atomic weaponry. India and Pakistan
have openly stated they have the weaponry.
Wouldn't it be ironic if Israel has been running a 50 year bluff?
Leper
May 6, 2018, 3:15:24 AM5/6/18
to
stolen it by now.
--
Machiavelli wrote:It is necessary for the state to deal in lies and half
truths,
because people are made up of lies and half truths. Even Princes.' And
certainly, by definition all Ambassadors and politicians
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