First Kiss
dawn
Well it happened, have been full time since Sept., met a lesbian my age
and we
really hit it off, she knows I am preop, and finds it fascinating. She
is soft fem. I am
very fem. The other night she leaned over and we kissed one long 5 +
minute soft
kiss, it was better then sex, being a girl and being kissed by one is
unbelievable,
any doubts about preference are gone. Girls are wonderful.Finished my
first week on
new job, so far am stealth there, but the guys know I am les. Hopefully
will save
problems if some one discovers TS. HR agrees. To all those who wrote
over the last 6
months during depression and suicide attempts. You are right, it does
get BETTER
I would NEVER go back to life before, I am so happy all day,that even HR
commented
that supervisors are very happy with attitude.....YES getting here was
HELL....For all
of you just starting, You can survive the, hurt, the loss. life on the
other side IS what
you are looking for being a whole person is amazing
Dawn
Karen Elizabeth A.
> To all those who wrote
> over the last 6
> months during depression and suicide attempts. You are right, it does
> get BETTER
> I would NEVER go back to life before, I am so happy all day,that even HR
> commented
> that supervisors are very happy with attitude.....YES getting here was
> HELL....For all
> of you just starting, You can survive the, hurt, the loss. life on the
> other side IS what
> you are looking for being a whole person is amazing
Not always, not for everyone. Because I can't pass well enough to be
seen by society as a woman even after 3 years of HRT and SRS I feel
worst then before transition. Then at least there was the possibility
that I could have the life I always wanted so badly. Now that I've
exhauted HRT possibilites with 3 years of changing regamines (because of
my build even great results may not have been enough and I got marginal
ones) I have no hope left.
FOr me part of being whole is fitting into the world and I can't have
that.
I'm glad things have worked out for you. They seem to for many - but not
all.
My hope is now, for the first time truely dead, and so is my spirit. If
I had the courage my body would be too.
What I've posted here in the past were my worst fears. As time passed
and the changes I needed did not ocurr those fears intesified and my
posting of them increased but although it seemed less and less likely I
never quite lost belief that I could some how get to where I nneded to
be. Well haveing tried the last possibility (mega doses of injectable
estradiol) and gotten no noticeable results in 8 months I've had to face
that this it is.
The life that is open to me now is not one I can take any joy in and
feeks like a cruel joke.
karen
Natasha Fassett
of venue helps, allot. If you live in SF,Ca you are living in the most
difficult place to pass in the states.
I know several girls who couldn't make it here and moved to far more
conservative semi rural areas , and now pass just fine.
I have known GG under 40 women who look like TV's , . I have known tall very
pretty GG's that are constantly being labeled TS and TV by sexually insecure
and unstable "induhviduals" , in the Bay area. The bay area seems to attract
such types. Don't give up !
There is a myth that whatever you get ,you get it within 3 years. That's BS.
puberty for GG's takes 5 to 7 years . Start thinking + and have some faith
girl.
Best wishes to you luv. Hang in there.
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
Karen Elizabeth A. wrote in message <19990109115612309210@[10.0.2.15]>...
Unknown
<19990109115612309210@[10.0.2.15]>, k...@world.std.com (Karen Elizabeth
A.) wrote:
>Not always, not for everyone. Because I can't pass well enough to be
>seen by society as a woman even after 3 years of HRT and SRS I feel
>worst then before transition.
Karen, having reassignment surgery obviously isn't going to have any
significant bearing on "passability" or your ability to integrate into
society and be seen as a woman. Surely you talked to enough people
and thought matters through well enough to at least know that. I
believe I recall you saying that you've been pondering these questions
in various on-line forums for a dozen years or more.
>Now that I've
>exhauted HRT possibilites with 3 years of changing regamines (because of
>my build even great results may not have been enough and I got marginal
>ones) I have no hope left.
You know, Karen, six weeks ago I spent quite a bit of time discussing
with you the origins of your negative feelings about yourself, and
gave you a list of twenty-one specific things you can do to make your
life better (http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=415330950). You
said you were going to get started, and I even went back over the list
with you to encourage you about the exact times and places to get
moving.
So long as you elect to posture yourself as a victim, and refuse to
take steps to make things better, you are indeed in sad shape. You
can whine about having no hope, or you can do what everyone else does
and get cracking. This is totally dependent upon your choices, and
it's obvious to everyone. I think you know it, too, but are too lazy
to leave your comfortable lair of self-pity.
I am now going to make one final effort to cure you of Victim Disease.
It's my patented Rev. Earnest Angley cure, which I reserve for only
the most extreme cases.
Now, step very close to me, so that I can look deep into your eyes,
and reach you with my palm when I reach out to slap you on the
forehead in just a second. Look carefully at me...carefully....
WHACK!!!! I NOW DECLARE YOU NO LONGER A VICTIM!!!
Go now and be happy. You are healed by the power of God and your own
free will.
Andrea
Natasha Fassett
that need to be considered.
If you began transition after age 35 it will take longer, after 40 longer
still. If you are a smoker your transformation will progress more slowly
also.
You need to eat right, get plenty of exercise, vitamins help, and
nutritional supplements are also invaluable.
If you smoke your circulation is not what it should be. Ginkgo Biloba and B
complex vitamins help to counteract the effects of smoking.
I personally prefer conjugated estrogen to synthetic, Premain is very good.
Natural micronized progesterone will help tremendously. Provera is synthetic
and many women have a bad reaction to it emotionaly .
You may also look much better than you think. Like an anorexic who looks in
the mirror and see's an overweight person looking back at them, so we often
have a distorted self image.
If you live in a bad area there are many disturbed in-duh-viduals that will
take great pleasure in lying or exaggerating about how awfull you look, when
you really look ok.
Ignore those A holes. OK?
Lift up that chin and get to work !
It's going to be all right.
Trish Penner
>>
>> To all those who wrote over the last 6 months during depression and
>> suicide attempts. You are right, it does get BETTER
(smiles her eyes to you)
umm well... but some-times your very sad
(blinkblinks her eyes)
>> I would NEVER go back to life before, I am so happy all day,that even HR
>> commented that supervisors are very happy with attitude.....YES getting
>> here was HELL....
(coyly) its the comedy sitcom thing... *grin*
juust kid-ding...
mn ac-tually its a baywatch re-run thing in-stead
(giggles as she teases you like thaat)
>> For all of you just starting, You can survive the, hurt, the loss.
(squints her eyes cute-ly to youu and she snuggles right by you...
and she smiles as she listens to what your say-ing)
>> life on the other side IS what you are looking for being a whole
>> person is amazing
(nodnods her head and kinda pushes her hair over her ear)
> Not always, not for everyone. Because I can't pass well enough to be
> seen by society as a woman even after 3 years of HRT and SRS I feel
> worst then before transition. Then at least there was the possibility
> that I could have the life I always wanted so badly. Now that I've
> exhauted HRT possibilites with 3 years of changing regamines (because of
> my build even great results may not have been enough and I got marginal
> ones) I have no hope left.
(soft-ly) hii...
oh karen yes you do pleeese don't be saad i read about new
technology every dayy... its soo exciting and it will help us...
um wellll... (taps her finger on her lip as she thinks a-bout it)
heres what we have *smile*
female hormones (start feminization of the cells in our body,
fat redistribution, breast development,
um pretty much secondary female sex
characteristics)
orchidectomy (no more massive doses of testosterone)
elec-trolysis (remove un-wanted hair... get a-way *giggle* /^,^] )
the gender reassignment surgery thing (blind ended neo vagina and
neoplasty labia and clitoris... no kids umm but
it looks good and it works for making love
and finally you can sit down and wear shorts
*blush*)
voice training (not ver-y easy um but well it does kinda work rrr...
mn its like being a voice ac-tress... all the
tiime...)
breast implants (if you like size c or some-thing *coy grin*)
facial feminization surgery (female chin, cheeks, um and forehead
and brow-line)
vocal chord surgery (tightening the vocal chords works ver-y nice
for some and you cant go low and rumbly by
acci-dent)
skin peels and abrasion (for smooth skin and gets rid of wrinkles...
laser actually shrinks tissue)
skin tucks (for firmer tummy or less saggy *grin*)
floating rib removal (for a more feminine-looking waist)
new technology that's almost here
tissue engineering (growing tissue of any kind... a vagina,
labia, vocal chords, and stuff like that...
they're growing cartilage already)
dna replacement (using a non-pathenogenic virus to change our
cells dna... no cancer no male chromosome
or making donor tissue compatible, especially
when growing well... uteris, ovaries, etc.
from donor tissue.. maybe even reversing
aging and ver-y long life-spans (whisper)
that scares me... they found the telomere
that part of dna that limits cell division
(squints her eyes all cute-like) )
joint replacement (oooh for replacing those bulky joints and bones
with smaller, more girl-like ones in-stead...
especially for synovial joints which are
hard to re-place or make... but for those
the technology's kinda not there yet *smile*)
bone surgery (new bone cements to contruct bone tissue out of...
for new shapes or lengths... (the bone marrow
is still inside with its blood sup-plyy)
your body turns it into real bone and you can
make attachments on it and sculpt it how you
liike... smaller ribcage... or shoul-ders...
or less tall... ooh smaller hands and feet
.....its the thinng (giggle) )
soft tissue augmentation (using your own hair to make bio-compatible
colloid filler to repair incontinence or
make per-fect vocal chords and neolarynx
or coating implants for bio-compatibility)
vocal chord implants (contruct a voice by replacing the chord part
of your vocal chords, the parts that make sound
you can see how a female voice could be made
from that)
so.. well if we can just stay a-live we have ohh ver-y exciting
things coming for us that'll change our world...
(her eyes are sparkly when she tells you)
> FOr me part of being whole is fitting into the world and I can't have
> that.
>
well not yet but... maybe in the future we just need to hope and pray
for it mn and not give up
> I'm glad things have worked out for you. They seem to for many - but not
> all.
>
> My hope is now, for the first time truely dead, and so is my spirit. If
> I had the courage my body would be too.
oh i knoww how you feel ohh i've cried so much too but its real-ly
not hope-less if we can keep try-ing who knows what will hap-pen to
help us (smiles her eyes ver-y friendly)
> What I've posted here in the past were my worst fears. As time passed
> and the changes I needed did not ocurr those fears intesified and my
> posting of them increased but although it seemed less and less likely I
> never quite lost belief that I could some how get to where I nneded to
> be. Well haveing tried the last possibility (mega doses of injectable
> estradiol) and gotten no noticeable results in 8 months I've had to face
> that this it is.
>
> The life that is open to me now is not one I can take any joy in and
> feels like a cruel joke.
>
> karen
*mmnn warm hug she closes her eyes she hopes your not sad...*
(softly) we can get through this if we love each oth-er... lets try
ooh and we'll be so hap-pyy and a picnic for all of us and
we'll say hii... *grin*
with ver-y warm hugs
trish
--> Brought to you by World News (Amiga) v1.0 <--
Karen Elizabeth A.
view of themseves and what they want and come to terms with with that
reality before making the decision to proceed. Dawn was in a bad place a
few months back because of a lot of factors - but passability was not a
big factor in them.
<Andrea> wrote:
> Karen, having reassignment surgery obviously isn't going to have any
> significant bearing on "passability" or your ability to integrate into
> society and be seen as a woman.
Of course I know that. That was just to let her know where I was in the
process.
> You know, Karen, six weeks ago I spent quite a bit of time discussing
> with you the origins of your negative feelings about yourself, and
> gave you a list of twenty-one specific things you can do to make your
> life better (http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=415330950). You
> said you were going to get started, and I even went back over the list
> with you to encourage you about the exact times and places to get
> moving.
But then i still had a tiny but persistant belive that somehow I could
become passable enough to always be an obvious TS. That belief is truely
gone now. My therpist has been trying to get to see that not being
passible is like being handicaped or black and people can be happy
anyway. She also has tried to let me know that it's not my fault that
things have not worked out physically. None of that provides any solice
or hope.
> So long as you elect to posture yourself as a victim, and refuse to
> take steps to make things better, you are indeed in sad shape.
I don't think I'm a victum. I just have an obsticle I can't overcome in
the way I need to overcome it. Not all problems can be solved, not all
things are possible. I've taken all the steps I know how to do that and
none have worked on what i know to be a show stopper to what I. There
are no more possibilites to try.
Indeed the only thing left is to accept that I'll always be
significantly readable and build a life anyway - which is hwt yiur
suggestions centered around. That what makes sense but I can't live that
life anymore then i could continueing that life as a male.
> You
> can whine about having no hope, or you can do what everyone else does
> and get cracking. This is totally dependent upon your choices, and
> it's obvious to everyone. I think you know it, too, but are too lazy
> to leave your comfortable lair of self-pity.
It's not self pity but the inability to compromise (If there is one
thing I am it's stubborn) on what I've wanted most all my life. I don't
think you see the difference. It's subtle but real. If i could make
myself reasonably passable your suggestions would be just the ticket and
could get me where I want to go.
I don't expect you to reply ever again.
Goodbye
-Karen
Unknown
<19990109142134834474@[10.0.2.15]>, k...@world.std.com (Karen Elizabeth
A.) wrote:
>My therpist has been trying to get to see that not being
>passible is like being handicaped or black and people can be happy
>anyway.
Good grief, Karen. There are literally hundred of millions of people
of color, and people with physical disabilities, in this world. They
are beautiful, proud, successful and happy. It's an insult to suggest
that they should not be perfectly satisfied with themselves.
>It's not self pity but the inability to compromise (If there is one
>thing I am it's stubborn) on what I've wanted most all my life.
There's no such thing as an "inability" to compromise. You've simply
decided you don't want to, and instead prefer to complain that it's
hopeless rather than tackle the problem and go forward.
>I don't expect you to reply ever again.
Then I wouldn't expect you to discuss it ever again. When you post in
a public forum, you invite feedback. Some of it may please you, and
some of it you may not wish to hear. If this as an exercise designed
to get others to commiserate about how unfortunate you are, you'd be
better served to seek a venue composed of similarly disposed people.
Andrea
RAR
>
> Hi all
>
> Well it happened, have been full time since Sept., met a lesbian my age
> and we
> really hit it off, she knows I am preop, and finds it fascinating. She
> is soft fem. I am
> very fem. The other night she leaned over and we kissed one long 5 +
> minute soft
> kiss, it was better then sex, being a girl and being kissed by one is
> unbelievable,
Dear Dawn,
Thanks for your post, I'm truly excited and happy for you.
Best wishes for the two of you, and continued success in your
transition.
Rene
Karen Elizabeth A.
> >My therpist has been trying to get to see that not being
> >passible is like being handicaped or black and people can be happy
> >anyway.
>
> Good grief, Karen. There are literally hundred of millions of people
> of color, and people with physical disabilities, in this world. They
> are beautiful, proud, successful and happy. It's an insult to suggest
> that they should not be perfectly satisfied with themselves.
I did not agree with the analogy. To me this is more basic then either
of those two factors. You may disagree but that's my belief.
> >It's not self pity but the inability to compromise (If there is one
> >thing I am it's stubborn) on what I've wanted most all my life.
>
> There's no such thing as an "inability" to compromise. You've simply
> decided you don't want to, and instead prefer to complain that it's
> hopeless rather than tackle the problem and go forward.
No I prefer to find a way to get to where I want to be. If I ever find
one that I that think has that potential I'll stop complaining and put
my heart and soul into it. As I'm out of ideas I'm out of hope.
> If this as an exercise designed
> to get others to commiserate about how unfortunate you are, you'd be
> better served to seek a venue composed of similarly disposed people.
You do me a great diservice and prove you have no more insite into who I
am and my motivations then Julie or Diane.
I was not looking for commiseration. I was serving up a dose of reality
for those early on. It's too damm easy to belive that things will go as
you want them to because the nned is so great.
If I had not read of the sucess stories and all the therad about when to
tell him etc and gotten the encooragment I would not have started down
this path... yet I had none of them in person and they did not realize
what I was up agaist. I would not have continued down it if my therapist
had not told me that I had a chance for to get what i wanted.
-Karen
Unknown
<199901091745511572027@[10.0.2.15]>, k...@world.std.com (Karen
Elizabeth A.) wrote:
>No I prefer to find a way to get to where I want to be. If I ever find
>one that I that think has that potential I'll stop complaining and put
>my heart and soul into it. As I'm out of ideas I'm out of hope.
Six weeks ago you seemed to think that at least some of the
twenty-plus specific ideas I provided to you would be beneficial.
Have you tried any of them?
If you're hung up on "passability" issues, I included several simple
and direct suggestions that will help you; have you followed through
on any of them? In particular, losing weight will, as you know, be of
immediate and substantial benefit in this regard. How's that going?
Have you worked on your wardrobe, or makeup? I suggested making new
friends, and getting some regular exercise, taking vitamins, taking
better care of your skin, and getting more sleep. Any progress on
those fronts? Have you, as I proposed, talked to a plastic surgeon
about what can be done and set some goals in that respect?
Karen, your complaints about appearance are, frankly, groundless. I
know what you look like, and I know other people with substantially
greater hurdles to overcome than you who present a very nice and
totally acceptable appearance. To hear you tell it, you haven't done
jack other than take hormones. That isn't sufficient to achieve the
goal you've set for yourself.
Now you say you'd rather be dead than continue the way you are.
That's hard to believe, as it doesn't appear that you've made any
significant effort to improve your lot.
>You do me a great diservice and prove you have no more insite into who I
>am and my motivations then Julie or Diane.
You do yourself the disservice when you choose to deny the truth I've
spoken to you. If you wish, you can aggressively address and
ameliorate the situation you face. Or, if you wish, you can continue
to say it's impossible. As a matter of fact, you know that I do have
insight into your motivations (which are likewise well known to you,
too) and have acknowledged this yourself.
Like it or not, =you= are responsible for how you live. It's absurd
for you to whine and complain that circumstances beyond your control
put you in an inescapable box.
>I was not looking for commiseration. I was serving up a dose of reality
>for those early on. It's too damm easy to belive that things will go as
>you want them to because the nned is so great.
Reality is great. Nobody ever said this would be easy, or that it
wouldn't require a great deal of work, a lot of patience, and much
compromise. There will be sacrifices, and there will be some things
we cannot change.
But you are in need of a serious dose of reality yourself. If you
really want to change things for the better, you simply need to get
serious about them and go to the mat. I and others have told you what
they are. It's up to you to decide whether you will pursue those
options or not.
>If I had not read of the sucess stories and all the therad about when to
>tell him etc and gotten the encooragment I would not have started down
>this path... yet I had none of them in person and they did not realize
>what I was up agaist. I would not have continued down it if my therapist
>had not told me that I had a chance for to get what i wanted.
So now you say you've be misled by a therapist and the encouragement
and success stories of others? Where does Karen's role figure into
all this, or is this just another case where factors beyond your
control have messed you up?
Andrea
Diane Mc
You are so totally and 100% full of sh*t!
You're persistent whining about your lack of possibility just plain isn't
true!
I want to point out to you, the newsgroup, and the world, that I saw you not
more than a month ago, in a real life situation, in a real life store.
I was with my roommate, now she's very good at spotting a TS, why? cause she
lives with one on a daily basis, she knows the signs. We had a talk about
you after we got home, her opinions are the same as mine always have been.
You are more than passable, what causes you problems is NOT your size.. It's
your attitude, your lack of willingness to accept and move on. Learn how to
move like a woman, learn how to think like a woman, learn how to exude an
aura of femaleness, you know what? THEN you'll be passable.
You are a VERY passable woman, the fact that you're not Carmen Electra is
besides the point, although that seems to be what the incessant whining is
continually about. You feel you're not pretty enough, beautiful enough, and
this enters into you thinking you're not "passable" enough.
Honey, I have to tell you, there are a lot of damn ugly women out there that
you look like a movie star next to, and you know what? they were born that
way!!!
I once had a discussion with my mom, she was lamenting that she thought I
wasn't passable and would have difficulty finding a job, I responded back to
her with something that I want you to think about "far uglier women have
gotten far higher paying jobs than I have, mom"
You're stuck in a job you don't love, in a marriage that's not healthy, and
you think that SRS was going to solve your problems, Karen, it just ain't
gonna help.
You even say that you feel as though you're straight and would be with a man
if you got into a new relationship, think about that, you may someday have a
partner that is PROUD of you, not ashamed, one that will hold your hand IN
PUBLIC, can you even imagine what that would do to your "passability"?
I sit here, and read your whining.. and all I can think of is it's a damn
shame you can't enjoy what you have in life and go on to live every day as
the joy and love that the world has to give you. I sit here thinking of how
much money an insurance company wasted by paying for your SRS when you can't
appreciate the gift it's made to enhancing your life. Do you think that was
a worthwhile investment? I don't, not from the way you talk about it.
I'd be damn thrilled if I could make my surgery happen, after 2 years full
time, I'd like the plumbing to go with my life. but unlike you, I don't have
the assets, I have to live my life, enjoying WHAT I HAVE, and knowing that
the world and I are cool with each other, simply because life is worth
savoring.
Karen, grow up, you have so much in your life to enjoy, stop sitting in the
pity pool.
believe it or not,
caringly,
Diane
Cindy19942
>Now, step very close to me, so that I can look deep into your eyes,
>and reach you with my palm when I reach out to slap you on the
>forehead in just a second. Look carefully at me...carefully....
>WHACK!!!! I NOW DECLARE YOU NO LONGER A VICTIM!!!
This reminds me of a Zen story. A young monk bowed before an older monk
reknown for his wisdom and asked him to mentor him and train him so he would
become wise. The old sage, who walked with a cane, bonked the younger monk
over the head, hitting him so hard he knocked him over. Then he said to the
younger monk, "Ask me again another time, now you are not ready to even begin."
The next day the younger monk again bowed before the sage and inquired one more
time. Again the sage knocked him over with his cane and said "Ask me again
another time, now you are not ready to even begin."
The younger monk was determined to become wise and so each day he bowed before
the sage to make his request and each day the sage walloped him with the cane.
The young monk began to wonder how long he could endure this daily bonking and
if his patience would give out before the sage decided he was ready to begin.
Each day the bonk seemed harder and more difficult to take.
Finally after two weeks of this the young monk bowed before the sage and made
his request, but this time he kept his eye upon the older monk and as he saw
his cane coming down towards his head he couldn't stand it and instead of
remaining submissive to the sage, he jerked to the side and threw up his arm
grabbing the cane and jerking it away so that the old monk lost his balance and
had to step back, almost falling over himself.
As the young monk reacted so, he found himself yelling, "STOP IT! IT HURTS AND
I DON'T LIKE IT AND I WON'T LET YOU HURT ME AGAIN!"
The sage smiled. "At last.... I began to wonder if you would ever show _any_
wisdom. Now you are ready to begin."
Take Care........Love & Joy!
Cindy Starchild
http://members.aol.com/Cindy19942
{to email me remove "nojunk" from my e-mail address}
PTHolmes
In article <778psl$t5e$1...@winter.news.rcn.net>, "Diane Mc" <dia...@javanet.com>
writes:
>You're persistent whining about your lack of possibility just plain isn't
>true!
>
>I want to point out to you, the newsgroup, and the world, that I saw you not
>more than a month ago, in a real life situation, in a real life store.
I must agree with Diane. I've met Karen in person and found her to be nothing
like how she describes herself. I found her to be a fairly attractive woman and
entirely passable.
How you feel inside and how you project are just as important as your
appearance for passing. If you think you're not passing people will pick up on
your insecurity and notice you're not comfortable with yourself. If you go
around expecting to get read you will! I wonder if this is what's happening?
Karen, most of us are going to get read at least occasionally. I think your
problem is more mental than physical and all you need is a big dose of
self-confidence.
Also, I agree that San Francisco is the worst place to be if you want to blend
in. If you live there I would consider moving to someplace more rural or where
you're not expected to be transgendered.
Tara
--
Learn to speak like a woman! Take voice lessons over the phone.
http://members.aol.com/ptholmes/voice.htm
Nicole Hamilton
> NEVER go back to life before, I am so happy all day .....YES
> getting here was HELL....For all of you just starting, You can
> survive the, hurt, the loss. life on the other side IS what
> you are looking for being a whole person is amazing
Dawn, I am so happy for you! Of course you probably saw I finally got a
chance earlier today to respond to the email you sent a few days ago, but
this is even better news. I'm so delighted you've made it to the other
side! Didn't I tell you? :)
Obviously, you still need to keep yourself steeled against possible
reverses. Life =is= always full of tricks! :) But I know you'll make it.
You're a survivor, Dawn. And yes, it =is= important to let those just
starting out, afraid that this whole thing of transition is just impossible
and can't be done, that IT CAN BE DONE! And when you get there, life is so
much better.
--
Nicki Hamilton
http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/biography.htm
Karen Elizabeth A.
> Also, I agree that San Francisco is the worst place to be if you want to blend
> in. If you live there I would consider moving to someplace more rural or where
> you're not expected to be transgendered.
No, I live in the Boston area (another T* hotbed)
Moving is not an option right now. My wife's mother is in her 80's and
is in an assited living situation about a 10 minute drive from our house
ans slowly going downhill. She will not leave the area because of her
mother and I don't want to leave her.
-karen
Karen Elizabeth A.
> I want to point out to you, the newsgroup, and the world, that I saw you not
> more than a month ago, in a real life situation, in a real life store.
Where I told you that the only time you post is in response to my posts.
Looks like that still holds true
> I was with my roommate, now she's very good at spotting a TS, why? cause she
> lives with one on a daily basis, she knows the signs. We had a talk about
> you after we got home, her opinions are the same as mine always have been.
if she knows the signs then she would have noticed that i have a
noticably prominant brow ridge. With my size that is a prtty good give
away *IF* one truely knows what to look for. Ousterhouts said I have a
smewhat masuline jaw and a VERY masuline forehead. Back then I thought
the jaw was the bigger issue but now i see he is right.
> You are a VERY passable woman, the fact that you're not Carmen Electra is
> besides the point, although that seems to be what the incessant whining is
> continually about. You feel you're not pretty enough, beautiful enough, and
> this enters into you thinking you're not "passable" enough.
Not at all. But believe what you want. To be honest IMO neither of us is
really passable.
> You're stuck in a job you don't love, in a marriage that's not healthy, and
> you think that SRS was going to solve your problems, Karen, it just ain't
> gonna help.
I'm not crazy about how my job is going but I totally disagree aboutyour
opinion of my marriage - for which you have no basis having never met my
wife. I never believed SRS would solve my problems and never said I
thought it would.
> You even say that you feel as though you're straight and would be with a man
> if you got into a new relationship, think about that, you may someday have a
> partner that is PROUD of you, not ashamed, one that will hold your hand IN
> PUBLIC, can you even imagine what that would do to your "passability"?
My wife is not a lesbian and does not wish to be percived by the general
public as one and so does not hold my hand when people are around. I
understand that.
Even if i was passable at my age and size finding a man wouldbe
difficult. Adding in the fact that I'm TS and readable brings the odds
down to close to zero. I've tried to build my life around one low
probability event already. I'm not goind to make that mistake again.
> I sit here, and read your whining.. and all I can think of is it's a damn
> shame you can't enjoy what you have in life and go on to live every day as
> the joy and love that the world has to give you. I sit here thinking of how
> much money an insurance company wasted by paying for your SRS when you can't
> appreciate the gift it's made to enhancing your life. Do you think that was
> a worthwhile investment? I don't, not from the way you talk about it.
I'm happy with the physical chages SRS has brought. As I've said before
SRS was something i needed to be happy but in and of itself it's not
sufficent.
> I'd be damn thrilled if I could make my surgery happen, after 2 years full
> time, I'd like the plumbing to go with my life. but unlike you, I don't have
> the assets,
If insurance did not pay for it I could not have afforded it.
> Karen, grow up, you have so much in your life to enjoy, stop sitting in the
> pity pool.
I'm feeling a lot of emotions but pity is not one of them.
-Karen
Karen Elizabeth A.
> If you're hung up on "passability" issues, I included several simple
> and direct suggestions that will help you; have you followed through
> on any of them? In particular, losing weight will, as you know, be of
> immediate and substantial benefit in this regard.
Actualy in my case not. I was 40 lbs lighter then I am now and was read
even more often. My franme and ribcage are very large and less fat
actually emphases that. Even my therapist agrees that losing a lot of
weight would not not make much difference.
> How's that going?
As a matter of fact I've lost 15lbs anyway.
> Have you worked on your wardrobe, or makeup?
Some yes.
> I suggested making new
> friends, and getting some regular exercise, taking vitamins, taking
> better care of your skin, and getting more sleep. Any progress on
> those fronts?
No new friends.
No Excercise or vitimines.
I've not been *able* to sleep and have started back on an
anti-depressants.
My skin is damm near perfect (ask Nicki Hamilton) and does not need
anything more.
> Have you, as I proposed, talked to a plastic surgeon
> about what can be done and set some goals in that respect?
I spoke to Ousterhouts this past summer. Anyway it's kind of pointless
since I have only 3K to my name at this point and my job is shakey. If I
lost it, I would be defaulting one my mortgage in a month or so. It will
be years before I can build up some savings again.
> Karen, your complaints about appearance are, frankly, groundless.
Not according to a lot of people - including my therapist. Not according
to the people stareing at me at the move theater last night nor in the
ladies room in the Fleet Center.
The best I get from non TS's is that I've done better then they thought
I would but...
> I
> know what you look like,
You have only seen head on pictures and don't understand the shear size
and geometry involved.
> Now you say you'd rather be dead than continue the way you are.
> That's hard to believe, as it doesn't appear that you've made any
> significant effort to improve your lot.
Umm from where I started i lost 140lbs, had professional voice therapy,
have seen an image consultant, and had breast implants. Hardly nothing.
> You do yourself the disservice when you choose to deny the truth I've
> spoken to you. If you wish, you can aggressively address and
> ameliorate the situation you face.
If I believed that there was something that could make enough difference
I would.
> to say it's impossible. As a matter of fact, you know that I do have
> insight into your motivations (which are likewise well known to you,
> too) and have acknowledged this yourself.
I don't remember what you are refering to.
> Like it or not, =you= are responsible for how you live.
To a degree that is undeniably true.
> It's absurd
> for you to whine and complain that circumstances beyond your control
> put you in an inescapable box.
Not all people can be passable enough for woodworking/stealth. I know
you believe that is not a requirement for fullfilment and happiness. I
do. Granted if I changed my thinking on that the box would dissapear -
but i would be honest with myself about my feels. I've done enough of
the for several lifetimes already.
> Reality is great. Nobody ever said this would be easy, or that it
> wouldn't require a great deal of work, a lot of patience, and much
> compromise. There will be sacrifices, and there will be some things
> we cannot change.
I have done a great deal of work and had a lot of patience. I started
this process just over 4 years ago. Compromise? What type of compromise
are you refering to? Some things I can compromise on and some things I
can't (or won't if you prefer).
BTW the things I can't change are the ones that have always mattered to
me most - even before I found out I could not change them.
> But you are in need of a serious dose of reality yourself. If you
> really want to change things for the better, you simply need to get
> serious about them and go to the mat.
I feel I have. True I have not taken out a 2nd mortgage on the house to
get plastic surgery but I have to take care of my wife too. If I thought
that would do it ...
> >If I had not read of the sucess stories and all the therad about when to
> >tell him etc and gotten the encooragment I would not have started down
> >this path... yet I had none of them in person and they did not realize
> >what I was up agaist. I would not have continued down it if my therapist
> >had not told me that I had a chance for to get what i wanted.
>
> So now you say you've be misled by a therapist and the encouragement
> and success stories of others?
No! I was explaining why I made my original post. When you want
something bad enough it does not take a lot to to make you think there
is a possibility - even in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.
That's important for those starting out to understand IMO.
> Where does Karen's role figure into
> all this, or is this just another case where factors beyond your
> control have messed you up?
Not at all. I was admitting that my own needs and desires let me to
direguard the evidence in front of my eyes for the slim possibilities
other talked about. I admit that i lost all objectivity and acted on
wishful thinking instead of my own best analytical judgement.
I deluded myself. That is my fault and my responsibility. The
consequences of that, I own. I don't blame my therapist or those that
offered enouragement sight unseen. I brought that up so that others
might realize that they might be doing the same.
One needs to be ruthlessly objective about their situation before
transition and SRS. It's the only way to be able to make those decision
and knowing upfront that now matter how things work out that you can
accept them. I was not that honest with myself. Deep in my heart I did
not let myself believe that things would go as they have despite the
fact I knew intellectually that it was the likely outcome. If i had and
I decided to go ahead anyway (and I may have) I would not be in the
emotional state I'm in now. I let myself believe in magic knowing that
there was no such thing. Now I'm paying the price for that.
-Karen
Nicole Hamilton
> dawn <dwk...@hocking.net> wrote:
> > ... it does get BETTER I would NEVER go back to life before,
> > I am so happy all day, ... life on the other side IS what
> > you are looking for ...
>
> Not always, not for everyone. Because I can't pass well enough to be
> seen by society as a woman even after 3 years of HRT and SRS I feel
> worst then before transition.
Geez, Karen, do you have to bring a raincloud everywhere you go? Dawn's
gone through some hellish times in her transition, she's been out of work, she's
had to contend with idiot therapists, her wife's suggested she kill herself, it's
been terrible. But she's survived and, for me, that just makes my day. I am
so happy it's finally worked out. And I think it is important to encourage
those just starting out on this path that it can be done.
Why is it necessary to turn this into yet another discussion of how unpassable
you think you are? Why does everything you ever post have to work this same
tired agenda? Pretty quickly, half the traffic in this newsgroup is going to be
about poor Karen and whether she really is or is not as unpassable as she
claims. We just went through that in s.s.tg a couple months ago.
Seems like kind of a sad way to make yourself the center of attention.
Unknown
you. You work hard to find an objection or excuse for everything.
You do this despite the indisputable fact that your circumstances are
no more difficult than those of millions of other people, and
certainly no different from those of most transsexual women. Your
choice to be miserable appears to be unshakeable, and that does, in
fact, bring all discussion with you to an end.
You persist in behaving in a childish and manipulative fashion, so I
shan't waste further effort attempting to assist you with improvements
you are not interested in making.
Good luck.
Andrea
Chaundra Allen
>That was the story with me too. My therapist kept leading me on,
>telling me I could live as a woman. All the TS women I knew were like
>movie stars,
They are all beautiful like movie stars! I've seen some of them!
Just six more months to surgery! ;-)
Ciao,
Chaundra
Nicole Hamilton
> Transsexuals can't afford the luxury of despair, though.
> So, we pick ourselves up, transition and change. What
> seems impossible becomes achievable when we find
> just that little bit of faith in ourselves.
Cheryl, you have a special gift for life and for expressing your thoughts.
I'm glad you're here to share both.
Vanderven
Your wrote in a moment of frustration with Karen:
> You are so totally and 100% full of sh*t!
>You're persistent whining about your lack of possibility just plain isn't
>true! I want to point out to you, the newsgroup, and the world, that I saw
>you not more than a month ago, in a real life situation, in a real life store.
>You are more than passable, what causes you problems is NOT your >size.. It's
your attitude, your lack of willingness to accept and move on.
>You are a VERY passable woman, the fact that you're not Carmen Electra >is
besides the point, although that seems to be what the incessant whining >is
continually about.
It is very difficult to bear people who always feel they will never pass in
spite of their relative good looks. But I think we can all go back to a moment
in our own past where we could not accept the idea that transition was
possible. It is part of digging in our heals against the old threesome of
guild, fear and shame. The fixation on the idea that we always will be read, to
me, has to do with a lack of self acceptance, which also implies an acceptance
of our shame and fears, not a stamping out of them.
Self acceptance is a devious term. The recieved wisdom in our community is that
we have to listen to an inner voice, and act on it, almost the way psychotic
person might do.
But real self-acceptance always has a base in a shared reality. As any serious
psychological textbook will explain, the most important element in self
acceptance is self efficacy: the feeling that we can succesfully convey to
others who we are, work with others, and do the tasks assigned to us well
enough to pass for a normal human being.
It is not just us trannies who worry about passing! Everyone who doubts their
ability to be something useful in life, has a difficult time to bridge the
social gap that exists between all people.
I have known quiet a few trannies back in Holland who snapped out of their
doubts about passing because they found something they were really good at and
could get acknowledgement for, in spite of not being picture perfect. And in
same veign, there are a lot of hermit beauty queens in that fair town who've
been on sick leave for years and years, because they feel they cannot pass. An
they are right: they cannot get real appreciation as a human being, because
they have not found yet that giving is the key to appreciation.
This issue is not soo simple though. Passing is important for self efficacy and
has a partly circulair relationship with self acceptance. If we do not pass in
our own mirror we are really challenged. And while part of the solution may lie
in changing our appearance, the bigger part will have to come from feeling a
useful person. Nobody can expect to sustain a good feeling about themselves in
isolation. As they say in Dutch: "We'll have to go the way of all flesh". We
are not so special. Just as for anyone else, it is our attention for others
that will make us feel good.
Arianne
Natasha Fassett
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
Nicole Hamilton wrote in message
<01be3c5e$ae203010$0732180c@hamiltonlabs>...
Trina
>To everyone: if you think Karen is being childishly manipulative,
>don't respond to her for heaven's sake! It is sheer co-dependency to
>bite the hook knowingly and then blame the fisherman for putting out
>the bait.
Well said...
Trina
__________________________
She believes that life's made up of all you're used to,
And the clock on the wall has been stuck at three for days and days.
She thinks that happiness is a mat that sits on her doorway,
But outside it's stopped raining...
-Matchbox 20-
Karen Elizabeth A.
> and
> certainly no different from those of most transsexual women.
Actually not true. My therapist has even admitted that it is moe of an
uphill battle for me the most - and she has been speciallizing in this
for 20+ years.
> You persist in behaving in a childish and manipulative fashion, so I
> shan't waste further effort attempting to assist you with improvements
> you are not interested in making.
I am being totally honest about the facts as I see them and my feelings
about all this. You assume motivations that do no not exist. I am not a
manipulative person at all and i resent you saying I am.
Goodbye
-Karen
Karen Elizabeth A.
> And I think it is important to encourage
> those just starting out on this path that it can be done.
I disagree. Everyone starting on this path needs to to know that there
is a significant probability that things will not work out and they may
never be able to be seen as normal women in society. If they can really
accept that as a possibility and go on anyway, they will be happy no
matter what.
I knew intellectually what happened with me was possible and probable.
While I greatly feared it, I never really believed that it would happen
to me and that's why I'm in thge emotional place I am now.
My message was not so much for Dawn but to those who have not commited
themselves to transition yet. They see the struggle she went through and
is emerging from and may assume that they wil have a happy ending too. I
know I did.
Sometimes the physical CAN get in the way and people need to understand
that.
-karen
Nicole Hamilton
> <Andrea> wrote:
> > and certainly no different from those of most transsexual women.
>
> Actually not true. My therapist has even admitted that it is moe of an
> uphill battle for me the most - and she has been speciallizing in this
> for 20+ years.
See, everyone? Karen really =is= determined to make this an argument over
whether she is or is not more unpassable than anyone else. A few of you
who are still feeling sympathetic toward this and imagining we're all just
picking on poor Karen just haven't been around long enough to see this
tiresome cycle unfold over and over.
The one thing that did make all this worth reading last time around was
when Diane began to =agree= with Karen, that Karen couldn't possibly pass,
that her situation was just as bleak as she describes it, etc., etc. The
only thing that makes Karen more angry than disagreeing with her is to
agree!
And that's what I'm going to do right now: I'm going to agree! Karen
=does= have a much more uphill battle than most! But I'm not talking about
whether she's passable. (Dammit, she is!) I'm talking about her whiny
attitude. I've never seen anyone so determined to view her life as shit.
It's tiresome and after a while, it sucks everyone dry. She rarely gives
anything back. Even when Dawn, who really has had an utterly devastating
situation these last 6 months or so finally reports back that a little
happiness has come into her life, do you think Karen can say, "Oh, I'm
happy for you?" Of course not! Everything is a jumping off point to how
miserable she is.
And it's never about whether she could overcome that, because she always
rejects every suggestion that might help her improve her lot. It's just
about becoming the center of attention.
When Karen's therapist admits that Karen's battle is more uphill than most,
I agree! And I'll bet we agree for the same reason, which is not the one
Karen thinks.
Kristine
How DO earthlings view trannies? I was on chat with my mom and one of my
sisters last night, and my sister started talking about this person who
transitioned at the store she manages. This individual was apparently
attractive, along with being competent, personable and upbeat. My sister
said she had an "easy" transition; that when she changed, "nobody noticed."
She was soon given her own store to manage in another area, and my sister
talks with her regularly. Nobody either knows or cares that she's TS. The
point is, both my mom and my sister (who have a critical personal interest
in the subject -- me) consistently referred to this person as "she."
On the other hand, my sister told of the day one of this person's
acquaintances from the support group paid a visit to the store. Her first
comment was that this person dressed and looked like crap. Even more
disturbing to her was when this person began passing out pre-printed cards
imprinted with her name and address and a declaration that she was
transsexual, and began initiating discussions about transsexualism with some
of the people there. Both my mom and my sister thought that was incredibly
stupid. My sister eventually asked this person to leave because the tranny
employee was becoming upset. The point is, both my mom and my sister
consistently referred to this person as "he."
When my sister commented that this second person was "ugly," was she talking
about appearances only? I don't know. But what impressed them the most (in
a negative way) about this person is that she waved her tranny flag high in
the most inappropriate circumstances. They asked me why someone would do
this and I could only answer "insecurity."
I'm out at work: (1) the AP has circulated stories of my legal escapades far
and wide, and (2) I'm not 100% passible on a continuing basis. But I belong
where I am and I don't wave flags (either overtly or otherwise) that suggest
differently. THE KEY IS ATTITUDE. It didn't come overnight. My transition
was not easy and the temptation was great to retreat into the tranny ghetto
with "my own kind." But because of where I lived that wasn't really
possible, and I was forced to listen to cisgendered friends' advice -- and
take it. And like Cheryl said, I found something to do that I love, which
builds all sorts of confidence as a human being. You don't have to be
woodworked to be accepted as a woman, at least by other women. Maybe it's
best that way. I don't have to go around looking over my shoulder all the
time. It did help me to move to a different area, where nobody had the
memories of the "old me" upon which to hang their hats. I don't know how I
could be treated any diferently by my coworkers, friends, strangers, etc.
than I am now.
Although the path I ended up treading was not as I originally envisioned,
this IS the life I bargained for.
-- Kristine
Diane Mc
Karen Elizabeth A. <k...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:199901100105573160847@[10.0.2.15]...
>
>Where I told you that the only time you post is in response to my posts.
>Looks like that still holds true
Yep, I DO respond when you're totally full of it, and you know what, you can
consider that my last response I'll ever start, I do however intend to
finish this topic over time, even if I know it's a total waste of my time
cause you're stuck in your lil world.
>Not at all. But believe what you want. To be honest IMO neither of us is
>really passable.
Karen, hurling insults is not becoming, here I am saying you are passable,
and yet you're accusing me of not being passable? Sorry, I live my life
every day stealth, I pass, I think you're definition of "passing" may be
flawed, do you mean that passing is only passing if other TS's can't read
you?
>>My wife is not a lesbian and does not wish to be perceived by the general
>public as one and so does not hold my hand when people are around. I
>understand that.
Yep.. and as far as I know, she's still non-supportive of you living your
life as you and enjoying your life? is the family still not accepting you?
are you still not invited to events?
>Even if I was passable at my age and size finding a man would be>difficult.
Adding in the fact that I'm TS and readable brings the odds
>down to close to zero. I've tried to build my life around one low
>probability event already. I'm not going to make that mistake again.
Well, as you wish, but you DO pass, and you're NOT that readable PHYSICALLY,
you need to get over the emotionality of it. I have no doubts that if you
were to go out onto the dating pool you would find a man that was interested
in YOU, your mind, your heart, your soul, and love you for that. This body
hang up is the issue.
that is after all, what true love is about.
Diane
<begin rant>
Would you PLEASE get a newsreader with a spellchecker, sheesh, I mean I know
you use a Mac, but that's crazy, they have to have Mac newsreaders with
spellcheckers. Unless the Mac really IS as dead as some folks insist and
there is no usable software for it.
<end rant>
Natasha Fassett
transition.
And you wonder why you are having emotional problems ?
Would you think about that for a minute ?
You can't live in two worlds at once like that. Your half way between Egypt
and the promised land !
The wilderness for Gods' sake, nowhere.
Let go and move on.
Heavens !
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
Karen Elizabeth A. wrote in message <199901102059002228011@[10.0.2.15]>...
>Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think that Spell Catcher costs thirty bucks; it will work with MacSoup.
>> It works with NewsWatcher, which is an on-line news reader.
>I've had a lot of unexpected bills lately (1K for car repair for one)
>and suddenly even $30 are siginificant. At this point i really wish i
>had forgone the implants - particularly as I finnally found HRT that is
>getting my breasts to grow (at least if the degree of nipple sorness is
>a good indication). I really would be less paniky finacially if I had
>that 4K back in the bank.
>
>> >Besides the typo's and spelling errors are a trademark of my posts!
>> >If I fixed them no one would belive the posts are from me! <g>
>>
>> Oh, I think you're mistaken there.
>Not all my posts ave been on the same subject or down beat. There was a
>period I was up and that really threw people! <g>
>
>I hope that you and everyone realizes I did not mean to start this whole
>damm cycle once again. I just reacted to Dawn's post emotionally and was
>not thinking about how others would repond to it.
>
>I've gotten seriously down again - to the point that both my therapist
>and wife insisted I get back on anti-depressants (which I started
>recently). I've not been able to sleep or concentrate at work. My wife
>is so worried that I'm going to fall apart that she is looking for a
>gender knwlegable therapist to help her deal with her fears about me and
>our future (she does not want to see mine). For the first time she is
>worried we will wind up on the street because of me being
>non-functional.
>
>-Karen
Karen Elizabeth A.
> Karen, hurling insults is not becoming, here I am saying you are passable,
> and yet you're accusing me of not being passable? Sorry, I live my life
> every day stealth, I pass, I think you're definition of "passing" may be
> flawed, do you mean that passing is only passing if other TS's can't read
> you?
No I don't. I do not mean to be insulting, just offering an honest
opinion based on my senibilities. There are many who think they are
stealth who are actually not. I don't know if that's the case with you
or not.
>
> >>My wife is not a lesbian and does not wish to be perceived by the general
> >public as one and so does not hold my hand when people are around. I
> >understand that.
>
> Yep.. and as far as I know, she's still non-supportive of you living your
> life as you and enjoying your life? is the family still not accepting you?
> are you still not invited to events?
She says that I will never pass fully because of my size and build
(shoulders) etc.- the same as all the other non TS's I know. My body
shape is very male overall and without good fat distribution I'll always
be very readable unless dressed just right. That's not a viable way to
live life IMO.
Her mother accepts and likes me though is not happy about the situation.
I suspect that in time she will let me visit her at her assisted living
situation. As to events I have been invited to my wife's sister's son's
Bar Mitzpha although I can't stay at their house in Wisconsin. I
probably won't go because of financial consideration.
> >Even if I was passable at my age and size finding a man would be>difficult.
> Adding in the fact that I'm TS and readable brings the odds
> >down to close to zero. I've tried to build my life around one low
> >probability event already. I'm not going to make that mistake again.
>
> Well, as you wish, but you DO pass, and you're NOT that readable PHYSICALLY,
Not my experience or the opinion of non TS's.
> Would you PLEASE get a newsreader with a spellchecker, sheesh, I mean I know
> you use a Mac, but that's crazy, they have to have Mac newsreaders with
> spellcheckers. Unless the Mac really IS as dead as some folks insist and
> there is no usable software for it.
I'm not about to spend money on an offline newsreader right now. Besides
the typo's and spelling errors are a trademark of my posts! If I fixed
them no one would belive the posts are from me! <g>
BTW the iMac was the largest selling computer for 1998.
- karen
Karen Elizabeth A.
>
> I think that Spell Catcher costs thirty bucks; it will work with MacSoup.
> It works with NewsWatcher, which is an on-line news reader.
I've had a lot of unexpected bills lately (1K for car repair for one)
and suddenly even $30 are siginificant. At this point i really wish i
had forgone the implants - particularly as I finnally found HRT that is
getting my breasts to grow (at least if the degree of nipple sorness is
a good indication). I really would be less paniky finacially if I had
that 4K back in the bank.
> >Besides the typo's and spelling errors are a trademark of my posts!
> >If I fixed them no one would belive the posts are from me! <g>
>
Karen Elizabeth A.
X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2b5
Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
> I wasn't referring to that, believe it or not. You may notice that I'm no
> longer participating in any threads about your passability or lack thereof.
Actually, you rarely did before or after we met so I did not
particularly notice it. What were you refering to?
I hope that statement does not imply that you too are upset with me.
> As for your depression, there are more than one brand of antidepressant; if
> one has bad side effects or doesn't work, get your doctor to prescribe
> another.
I know that. I just started onw about 10 days ago (Celexa - a new one).
The psychiatrist believes in starting at a low dose for two weeks to see
if any side effects occur. If not he ramps up the dosage. So far nothing
noticable except possibly a dry mouth - but since I restarted Spiro, it
may be that which is causing it.
-Karen
Werewomon
>significant bearing on "passability" or your ability to integrate into
>society and be seen as a woman. Surely you talked to enough people
>and thought matters through well enough to at least know that. I
>believe I recall you saying that you've been pondering these questions
>in various on-line forums for a dozen years or more.
>
>>Now that I've
>>exhauted HRT possibilites with 3 years of changing regamines (because of
>>my build even great results may not have been enough and I got marginal
>>ones) I have no hope left.
>
>You know, Karen, six weeks ago I spent quite a bit of time discussing
>with you the origins of your negative feelings about yourself, and
>gave you a list of twenty-one specific things you can do to make your
>life better (http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=415330950). You
>said you were going to get started, and I even went back over the list
>with you to encourage you about the exact times and places to get
>moving.
>
>So long as you elect to posture yourself as a victim, and refuse to
>take steps to make things better, you are indeed in sad shape. You
>can whine about having no hope, or you can do what everyone else does
>and get cracking. This is totally dependent upon your choices, and
>it's obvious to everyone. I think you know it, too, but are too lazy
>to leave your comfortable lair of self-pity.
>
>I am now going to make one final effort to cure you of Victim Disease.
>It's my patented Rev. Earnest Angley cure, which I reserve for only
>the most extreme cases.
>
>Now, step very close to me, so that I can look deep into your eyes,
>and reach you with my palm when I reach out to slap you on the
>forehead in just a second. Look carefully at me...carefully....
>WHACK!!!! I NOW DECLARE YOU NO LONGER A VICTIM!!!
>
>free will.
>
>
>Andrea
>
>
>
Dammit, Reverend Esquire Andrea! Your impinging on my shamanic turf with this!
We don't sue, just look for our pincushions!
But Andrea is right, you know. I'm ugly with a capital Ugh. I'm so ugly a girl,
I could make a train take a dirt road. Most of the women in my life emphasised
this to me. Until I said to myself "Self, there are a whole lot of uglier girls
out there than you." And went on ahead and did what I needed to do. So should
you.
I just wish Andrea hadn't queered my chances of selling you a Holy Prayer cloth
to put over your monitor when you weep, to say nothing of the plastic
glow-in-the-dark-Inanna figurine.
Make no mistake, I've had the dumb and uglies a thousand times, and have no
intent of mocking you; only the attitude that lets you defeat yourself in that
fashion.
Molly duCoeur
Priimate of the Church of the Cosmic Chuckle
I grant you full indulgence for all your sins, real or imaginary, past or
present. Providing you do something about it.
bright blessings,
Molly duCoeur
"Come now and now my love, and leave your dying desert, to the rains. Give up
your treasured wounds, let go the tempting memory of the pain...." -Buffy Ste.
Marie
RosePress
"Kristine" <kr...@ncx.com> writes:
>I'm out at work: (1) the AP has circulated stories of my legal escapades far
>and wide, and (2) I'm not 100% passible on a continuing basis. But I belong
>where I am and I don't wave flags (either overtly or otherwise) that suggest
>differently. THE KEY IS ATTITUDE. It didn't come overnight. My transition
>was not easy and the temptation was great to retreat into the tranny ghetto
>with "my own kind."
I have not had any trouble with my transition (discounting my brother and his
wife) and a lot of it has been from making no fuss. Oh, there's the occasional
giggling fit and comments about how pleasant the whole world is now; but that
doesn't seem to count as a fuss.
Two years in a row, I've gotten positive marks in my performance evaluation for
my improved attitude and better relations with co-workers. It's not stealth,
woodworking, nor even a low profile -- it's no-fuss and doing my job and being
friendly.
It is so much easier to be friendly these days. This is the life I was made
for.
Hugs -- Ellen Rose
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
k...@world.std.com
>
> The one thing that did make all this worth reading last time around was
> when Diane began to =agree= with Karen, that Karen couldn't possibly pass,
> that her situation was just as bleak as she describes it, etc., etc. The
> only thing that makes Karen more angry than disagreeing with her is to
> agree!
> And that's what I'm going to do right now: I'm going to agree! Karen
> =does= have a much more uphill battle than most! But I'm not talking about
> whether she's passable. (Dammit, she is!)
About 90% - but that mean I'm read about 1 in 10 which makes woodworking
impossible in any real sense and means I have to always be an out TS.
> And it's never about whether she could overcome that, because she always
> rejects every suggestion that might help her improve her lot.
Maybe that's because I had already thought of all of them and tried a good
number and found they did not work. Frankly I'm scared out of my wits. I
transitioned because i reached a point that I absolutely had to. Now that I've
done it I don't know if I can survive the aftermath.
You and other very sucessful people have this inate belief that that
everything will work out OK somehow. My life and those of the people I loved
has shown me that is a fallacy. The universe is indifferent and you can't
always make things work out acceptably no matter how hard you try.
I lived my whole live up until starting this process just going getting by
one dat at a time being tosed and turned my the currents around me. I did not
allow myself hope or plans. Then i did. I let myself have hopes and dreams
and feelings which wound up getting ground on the rocks of so so HRT results
combined with a way to big build.
> It's just
> about becoming the center of attention.
Not at all. If you had ever bothered to really get to know me you might
understand.
I don't like or feel comfortable being the center of attention. When our group
started 3.5 years ago it took me 6 months to get confortable enough to say
anything about my feelings - but of course you were not there then.
Is it any wonder I did not say anything in group once you got there even
though I was hurting so much that I left in tears (which I tried not to
show)?
Reguardless of if you or anyone else here belives it and can understand it
my, feelings and posts are honest and heartfelt. I am slowly dying inside
because i can't find a way to have what I wanted most in life and allowed
myself to believe that for this once I could make things work out.
Maybe i'm faraid to try anymore because that means letting hope in the
possibility another dissapointment of getting hurt even worst then I have been
so far. I don't know but I do know that i don't honestly see anything that i
think has a resonable chance of getting me where I need to go. I don't think I
can survive being dissapointed again because I'm on barely hanging on now.
> When Karen's therapist admits that Karen's battle is more uphill than most,
> I agree! And I'll bet we agree for the same reason, which is not the one
> Karen thinks.
She even said at one point that I had had a right to expect more from HRT.
She is the one that said I was 90% passable and has implied I'll always be
readable. That's why she was talking about being readable as equivalent to
people having to make a life with other visible handicaps.
Where you both agree is that I should accept that and move on. To me that is
giving up on all that I wanted most and that I won't do. Maybe that will be be
my undoing but damm it I've accepted so much dissapointment in this life in
everything else that mattered to me that I can't in this.
-karen
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
k...@world.std.com
"Natasha Fassett" <nata...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> You are still married and with you wife who is not supportive of your
> transition.
> And you wonder why you are having emotional problems ?
Different people define supportive in different ways. She told me to go ahead
and transition because she realized I had to. She was there with me when I
had SRS even though it hurt her and (even with insurance) drained most of our
reaming assets (the bulk of which had gone to transition related expenses).
When I was considering not doing labipasty because of the expense and believe
that it did not matter because no one would see it anyway she told me to go
and get it finished. All VERY supportive actions!!
She does not and will not ever truely see me as a woman and for that I can not
blame her. She also is not a lesbian and does not want to be taken for one in
piblic. She is also starting a new profession and does not want it known that
she is married to a TS, so I ma excluded from some functions because i AM
readable.
In short she supoports me but is also pretecting herself. We love each other
a lot and fit together very well and enjoy being together. Being together is
a LOT better then being alone as well.
> Would you think about that for a minute ?
> You can't live in two worlds at once like that. Your half way between Egypt
> and the promised land !
> The wilderness for Gods' sake, nowhere.
> Let go and move on.
If I could do woodworking/stealth I'm not sure what would happen but as it is
parting would be a big net loss for both of us.
-Karen
Natasha Fassett
I still love your posts.
Are you a lawyer ? I am a low income person and I may need an attorney soon
to deal with a discrimination case, medical. Is this outside your specialty?
Would you take a case on contingency if it merited it ?
Could we talk about it sometime on private e-mail?
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
RosePress wrote in message <19990111090258...@ngol03.aol.com>...
Natasha Fassett
"choice" to have SRS but you look like shit and always will. The first part
of the message is irrelevant and the second part is what is killing you ! Go
all the way and quit making excuses to stay in your cruel comfort of
illusory safety, which has reduced you to a wreck. Since now you have
nothing to loose, all your hopes have been dashed, etc.. Move out and break
contact for all of your, sakes hers and yours !
Your self image will improve rapidly. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOOSE ! BE A WOMAN
!!!!
kd
Karen Elizabeth A. wrote in message <19990110231039306312@[10.0.2.15]>...
>I hope that statement does not imply that you too are upset with me.
I'll bet I am not alone in my feeling that what people get upset about is
that you are hurting. I don't want to see you hurting, Karen, and even
though I hardly know you, the occassional talk we have had in this group has
lent to my insight and experience.
I totally relate with your relationship with your wife; my own difference is
that we (me and my s/o) pulled it off for two years and then we went our
separate ways. That was her choice more than mine, and I still hurt for the
decision.
I do know that some people in my life will never see me as female, no matter
how good I look or act. For me, I limit my exposure as just being around
them is absolutely awful for my emotional happiness. For you, that doesn't
sound like it's an option, and you seem to be trying other ways to deal with
it. Sometimes just venting a little does help, and if you do that here,
better here than a place where people have no clue what you are going
through. I wish you the best, Karen.
Natasha Fassett
Your wife is punishing you ,it's plain as freaking daylight.
Understand us. She married what she thought was a man, who in her eyes turns
into a woman, you are your own mistress as far as she is concerned. She
doesn't want to be a lesbian, is ashamed of you, witnessed by the fact she
excludes you from some events. She is afraid to move on. She blames you for
ruining her marriage. She is unconsciously using guilt on you and
undermining your self esteem to make you miserable, she's punishing you !
She is in competition with you for the man you once were, perhaps she is
hopping you will revert.
Smell the coffee baby, have some guts, be a woman, come out of denial, and
go out there and claim your dream !!!!!!! DO IT, or quit complaining.
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
Natasha Fassett wrote in message ...
Chaundra Allen
>On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 06:52:24 GMT, chau...@geocities.com (Chaundra
>Allen) wrote:
>>
>>They are all beautiful like movie stars! I've seen some of them!
>
>Yes we are, my dear. Sometimes I go into a glamor daze for months at
>a time, I'm so stunned by the fabulousity of it all.
I can't wait. I'm just really trying to look my best so that other
TS's will look up to me, too. The post-ops are the example for
everybody, you know!
>Oh, yes, right. I'll bet you're excited. How's college going? Being
>as beautiful as we are, we'll never have to work, but it's nice to
>have something to talk about at cocktail parties.
Yes I know. Who ever is my husband will just have to understand that,
but I don't think it will be a problem because every guy just about
mostly wants to show off his beautiful wife.
School is okay now but kinda boring except for this one cute guy Sean
who is in my psyche class. He hasn't asked me out yet but I think
he's going to from the way he keeps looking, plus he's got a BMW. ;-)
The main thing is my surgery though and it won't be long now! Just
think, no more support groups (ick). I don't know why my therapist
keeps making me go there. These two girls who go there have the worst
hair I have ever seen and I just don't think they are ever going to
pass and get their surgery if they keep it up. I went up to them one
day (jsut to help out you know) and all I said was like "I've got this
great conditioner that will help you get rid of that frizz", and they
go "LEAVE US ALONE CHAUNDRA!!!" So I don't know, you would just think
a real TS would always want to look her best. I guess it takes all
kinds.
>Ciao, darling.
Thanks a lot, all the post-ops are really nice. :)
>P.S. BTW, do you know that you have the same NNTP Posting Host as
Hm, is that like a new kind of surgery, where do you get it?
Chaundra
diane...@my-dejanews.com
Andrea Bennett (arb...@mindspring.com) wrote:
> So long as you elect to posture yourself as a victim, and refuse to
> take steps to make things better, you are indeed in sad shape. You
> can whine about having no hope, or you can do what everyone else does
> and get cracking. This is totally dependent upon your choices, and
> it's obvious to everyone. I think you know it, too, but are too lazy
> to leave your comfortable lair of self-pity.
Seconded and Amen!
---------
Diane
diane...@my-dejanews.com
k...@world.std.com (Karen Elizabeth A.) wrote:
> I don't think I'm a victum. I just have an obsticle I can't overcome in
> the way I need to overcome it. Not all problems can be solved, not all
> things are possible. I've taken all the steps I know how to do that and
> none have worked on what I know to be a show stopper to what I. There
> are no more possibilites to try.
BZZZZZZ.. Wrong! But thanks for playing.....
I know several possibilities right off the bat that you refuse to do:
How about:
1) Stop eating like a horse so you can lose a few dozen pounds - Going from
the near 200's (or beyond) to 150 does wonders for passability.
2) Get out of your loveless relationship and try to look for someone who
actually accepts you rather then suffer through constant daily
unsupportveness.
3) get out of the job you hate and get one you like and find fulfilling.
4) Get some freaking anti-depressents so you will finally stop getting into
these quarterly ruts of hopelessness. For christ's sake eat some prozac!
Oh I know ... "I can't because..." or "yes, but..." - you've been telling us
that all year long (booorrrrrringgggg!) and when some one like Andrea gives
you concrete advise you cut her off.
For the love of God - get off the Internet - get a life and get your head
straight! This is a support area but support only goes so far - if you don't
care enough about your life to fix it then why should we?
Natasha Fassett
all, obviously you have been getting enough "false compassion" from some
where, and choosing to take it and ignore good advice.
You may profit greatly from reading Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism ,
by Chogyam Trungpa .
Ruthless compassion wisely applied to help you escape a fate worse than
death is true kindness.
I do care about you. I am not going to hand you a pill, to help you accept
an awful fate you do not deserve, and can escape.
Escape the hell you are stuck in by facing facts and accepting reality ,and
work your way out ,to the life you really want.
You are unjustly imprisoned.
diane...@my-dejanews.com
k...@world.std.com (Karen Elizabeth A.) whined
> You do me a great diservice and prove you have no more insite into who I
> am and my motivations then Julie or Diane.
Which is to say that she knows exactly what you are doing and why! It's dull
- it's boring - it makes a Bill Shatner novel look like something written by
Steven King by comparison!
> I was not looking for commiseration.
Oh hell you weren't - you were looking for commiseration - for pity for
attention. You don't have the courage to take charge of your life so you go
around playing passive aggressive bullcrap games about how pitiful your life
is because that's the only control you believe you can get.
Karen - this isn't a matter of weight or passibility or anything else. It's a
matter of courage - the basic minimums of courage that any human being carry
around to get them through the day. We all, transgendered or otherwise, carry
around at least that level of basic responsibility for ourselves. Now for
God's sake grow up and start being responsible for yourself.
>I was serving up a dose of reality
> for those early on.
Pfui! Bad enough that you're making you're own life suck now you're going to
project that onto someone else. No - the reality, of which you're a perfect
example, is that you will be just as together or a sfucked up after transition
or SRS as you were before. All the more reason to sort things out with a
pshrink prior to Transition. Thanks for the example.
diane...@my-dejanews.com
"Nicole Hamilton" <hami...@hamiltonlabs.com> wrote:
> The one thing that did make all this worth reading last time around was
> when Diane began to =agree= with Karen, that Karen couldn't possibly pass,
> that her situation was just as bleak as she describes it, etc., etc.
Hehehe - well from time to time I actually do try to be entertaining <g>
> When Karen's therapist admits that Karen's battle is more uphill than most,
> I agree!
Stealing my schtick now are we?? <g>
Perhaps we can start a new newsgroup - alt.karens.freaking.depressing.life and
move all further discussion there? Maybe Julie can do the make group for us.
What do you think?
Nicole Hamilton
> Your wife seems to be sending you a very clear mixed message.
> I support your "choice" to have SRS but you look like shit and
> always will. The first part of the message is irrelevant and the
> second part is what is killing you ! Go all the way and quit making
> excuses to stay in your cruel comfort of illusory safety, which has
> reduced you to a wreck. Since now you have nothing to loose,
> all your hopes have been dashed, etc.. Move out and break
> contact for all of your, sakes hers and yours !
> Your self image will improve rapidly. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO
> LOOSE ! BE A WOMAN !!!!
Karen, I know you're angry with me already and you'll be more angry at me
for saying this, but Natasha's dead on. You gotta go make a life for
yourself. I was appalled to read your comment you can't move, e.g.,
because your wife can't leave your mother-in-law and you accept that even
though you're not allowed to visit your mother-in-law. The more I hear
this stuff, the screwier it sounds. You just don't have a healthy life and
it's never going to be unless you're willing to make some changes.
I think it's about time you either put up or shut up. If you want
happiness, you have to make some changes, both in your life and in your
outlook. If you are not willing any changes, that's a choice to be
unhappy, and it's just tiresome and unfair to whine about it so much. No
one else is to blame and no one should feel sorry for you or feel compelled
to give you "support" for how your sad your life is when that clearly is
your choice.
Kristine
Karen Elizabeth A. wrote in message <19990111223209130237@[10.0.2.15]>...
>In the end I can't have what i worked for and risked everything for due
>to factor that *are * truely out of my control. I not built of stone and
>I can't deal with that. Sorry for being human.
There is very little in this world we can control -- except how we react to
adversity and how we work with it
>My life is not pitiful - I just can what is most important to me - to
>have arealistic chance able to be woodwork.
Woodworking is not all it's cracked up to be; being respected for who you
are is. If you have the latter, other rarely care about the former.
-- Kristine
Bobbi C
>Maybe i'm faraid to try anymore because that means letting hope in the
>possibility another dissapointment of getting hurt even worst then I have
been
>so far. I don't know but I do know that i don't honestly see anything that
i
think I
>can survive being dissapointed again because I'm on barely hanging on now.
>
>
Hi I'm new here, but I hope I can help.
While people's first impressions may indeed be affected by how you look,
your important relationships will depend more on how you feel about
yourself, and how you communicate that to others i.e. whether you smile or
not, whether you are friendly, helpful, etc. However it is very hard to
smile, be friendly, outgoing, etc. when you are feeling the way you are
right now.
I think you mentioned in one of your postings that you were thinking of
going on antidepressants. If you haven't already, this is a good idea. I
have been on antidepressants for about three years. At first I was opposed
to using them, but when I became involved in a problem at work I decided to
try them. They really changed the way I view my life.
They do not solve your problems for you, but they help dispel the
hopelessness that keeps you from taking the actions you need to take. If
you have tried them, don't give up if you still feel hopeless. Like many
medications, they need to be adjusted, and if one medication doesn't do the
job there are others that will.
Hopefully,
Bobbi C
--In the end only kindness matters.--
kd
k...@world.std.com wrote in message <77ea12$ojf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <77dicb$hr3$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>,
> "kd" <cybe...@email.com> wrote:
>>Thank you. I know I have contributed positively here even if others don't
>recognize it.
You have. It's been a while, but you definitely have.
>When you really love someone you go through alot for them and for the
>relationship. It's been almost a year and a half since my transition and
>things slowly but surely have been getting better. It's a huge shock
finding
>out your spouse is TS and it can years to adjust. We still have a lot of
love
>on both sides of our relationship. That is worth a lot of accomidation time
.
>I know she will nevr get all the way to where I would like her to be but I
>think eventually she will come far enough.
I totally wish you the best in this. From what little I know of your day to
day life, you have a bit of a struggle ahead of you. You are right, though,
and relationships are mostly about giving. I ask you this, Karen - is she
giving you what you give to her? Relationships should also be equitable. I
ask this because it got between me and mine that she couldn't give me what I
wanted, and she did, possibly still does at some level, love me. Obligatory
"love is" observation that one has to know when to let go for the benefit of
the partner, when it isn't going to be equitable any more. For what it's
worth, I havn't totally let go, and this is a part of me that has probably
caused me some fear of intimacy issues. Not the only issue, sadly, but
that's an area I won't go into here.
> Sometimes just venting a little does help, and if you do that here,
>> better here than a place where people have no clue what you are going
>> through. I wish you the best, Karen.
>
>Actually i get the feeling that peiople here don't even though they think
they
>do.
You know they still love you Karen. If they didn't they wouldn't try so
hard. All I get here is a small sampling of net friends but what do your
other women friends think? (you know, "in the real world")
>This may sound a bit paranoid, I also suspect that there is an Email
campain
>going on behind the sceens for people here to put up a united front against
>me.
Nothing that I have heard of, Karen.
>The phrase one of the people responding to me used "Understand us" made
>me realize it.
Just coincidence I am sure.
You know 1 in 10 aren't bad odds on stealth... againt the one, you can
dissuade with BS or win with charm. Maybe it would be good to get out in
some new social circles and meet other women, not for intimacy, but just for
girl talk. I really think this would help you, it always does me, even if I
find I don't like everyone I meet. I seem to be this mutated cross between
Ling and Aly McBeal, but that's just me...
Natasha Fassett
CARE or I would have said nothing.
You do sound a lot more positive now. We all care or you would be ignored.
You have painted a different picture of your relationship now I notice.
Perhaps you are looking at things differently now. I sure hope so . You were
really scarring me there for a while.
It's not about what you DON'T have
It's about what you DO have.
I wish you well.
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
k...@world.std.com wrote in message <77ea12$ojf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <77dicb$hr3$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>,
> "kd" <cybe...@email.com> wrote:
. We still have a lot of love
>on both sides of our relationship. That is worth a lot of accomidation time
.
>I know she will nevr get all the way to where I would like her to be but I
>think eventually she will come far enough.
>This may sound a bit paranoid, I also suspect that there is an Email
campain
>going on behind the sceens for people here to put up a united front against
>me. The phrase one of the people responding to me used "Understand us" made
>me realize it.
k...@world.std.com
from here.
In article <77dv7b$f2m$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
diane...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I know several possibilities right off the bat that you refuse to do:
> How about:
>
> 1) Stop eating like a horse so you can lose a few dozen pounds - Going from
> the near 200's (or beyond) to 150 does wonders for passability.
I existed on < 1200 calories a day for a year and a half as a matter of fact.
I dropped my weight low enough to know that it does not make much difference
in passability. That combined with the realization the HRT was not working
was when i hit my first big bottom in this process and you first became aware
of me.
In any case your remark shows how clueless you are about my build. At 150 I
would be lucky to be alive at all. For my frame about 180 would be the lowest
possible healthy weight - and I'm "only" 6ft. My frame is why Michelle Steiner
though I weighted less then Dr. Missy who is 2" taller - even though i was 20
lbs heavier then her when Michelle met me. I am big in a way that average to
slight framed people do not realize or can relate to. Height and fat is not by
far the whole story when it comes to size for me.
> 2) Get out of your loveless relationship and try to look for someone who
> actually accepts you rather then suffer through constant daily
> unsupportveness.
There is a lot of love and a lot of supportiveness - but also honesty and
honesty is not always pleasant.
> 3) get out of the job you hate and get one you like and find fulfilling.
I don't hate the job - but it is a startup with a LOT of pressure but also a
bright future. This summer was not a good time to get promoted to mangement
for me either with the extra stress.
The only reason I would leave is if I thought I could be stealth.
> 4) Get some freaking anti-depressents so you will finally stop getting into
> these quarterly ruts of hopelessness. For christ's sake eat some prozac!
AS a matter of fact, I started anti-depressants two weeks ago tommorrow - at a
low dose to monitor side effects. I expect it will get upped to a theraputic
level tommorow.
> Oh I know ... "I can't because..." or "yes, but..." - you've been telling us
> that all year long (booorrrrrringgggg!) and when some one like Andrea gives
> you concrete advise you cut her off.
Heck I was trying some of her suggestions but not all. I did start dieting
again but have not been able to mantain it. The iron will I originally had
that enabled me to drop 140lbs dissapeared when it became apparrent that was
not the answer. When i believed it was I was ruthless about maintaing the
diet. Now that I know it can only be a minor contributor the drive is not
there.
> For the love of God - get off the Internet - get a life and get your head
> straight! This is a support area but support only goes so far - if you don't
> care enough about your life to fix it then why should we?
I'm not asking you or anyone else to "fix" my life for me. It's rather
arrogant for people who don't know me well to think they can, in any case.
When things boil over inside me, this is where I often let the steam out.
Sometimes it helps and sometimes it makes things worst but posting does let
me put my feelings into words and have a stab at understanding them.
I was never part of the cliques here or anywhere else in my life. If I have no
friends here, while I'm not happy about it, I can deal with it.
I also think I provide a valuable counter balance to all the , "while thing
may be hard along the way, in the long run they work out" posts. Things DON"T
work out for everybody and those contemplating this journey need to know it.
If you don't want to see read my posts then simply skip them. No one is
forcing you to read them. I don't hide my address. I've have used this
address on the net (even when posting from deja news) since at least 1995 so
I'm easy to spot.
-Karen A.
k...@world.std.com
"Nicole Hamilton" <hami...@hamiltonlabs.com> wrote:
> Karen, I know you're angry with me already and you'll be more angry at me
> for saying this, but Natasha's dead on.
I'm not angry with you anymore, it serves no point. My anger does not change
you and does not help me and just wastes what emotional reserves I have.
> You gotta go make a life for
> yourself. I was appalled to read your comment you can't move, e.g.,
> because your wife can't leave your mother-in-law and you accept that even
> though you're not allowed to visit your mother-in-law. The more I hear
> this stuff, the screwier it sounds.
It takes time to accept this cahnge for a non-TS as i've always told you. My
mother-in-law is starting to feel guilty about not wanting me to visit. She
has been over our house a lot over the holiday season and she likes me and is
beginning to realize how unfair about that she has been. Things change slowly
on that front but they are changing for the better. After all she is in her
80's!
As to my wife, ask Chris about her. She has met my wife at least twice and her
comment in group after she met her at the Xmass party 2 or 3 years ago is that
now she understood some why we are still togther. (don't ask Jen though - they
did nothit it off at all - it was fireworks actually!!!)
No one is forcing you to read and respond to my posts and I'm not sure if I
will continue with the group - and if I do i will not talk about my feelings
with you present so you don't have to be subjected to it any more unless you
want to be.
If I see a path *I* can belive can get me where I need to to be I WILL
follow it. You and others may believe there is but at this point I truely
don't. Maybe I'm just emotionally exhausted and not seeing things as they are
and maybe I'll recharge and see things differently eventually but right now i
don't think so. That's why my wife is so worried about me at the moment.
I do want things to work out. I would not have bothered starting down this
path if I did not and spending all my savings on this quest. It's the only
thing i have unreservedly put my hopes and efforts into in my adult life. It
has given me some of the best times I have ever had - and some of the worst
pain. I know it has for you as well, but for me the order has been different.
I will always remeber the euphoria for the few first few months after
transition and then again in the weeks following SRS. They are my treasures
-Karen
k...@world.std.com
> I'll bet I am not alone in my feeling that what people get upset about is
> that you are hurting. I don't want to see you hurting, Karen, and even
> though I hardly know you, the occassional talk we have had in this group has
> lent to my insight and experience.
Thank you. I know I have contributed positively here even if others don't
recognize it.
> I do know that some people in my life will never see me as female, no matter
> how good I look or act. For me, I limit my exposure as just being around
> them is absolutely awful for my emotional happiness. For you, that doesn't
> sound like it's an option, and you seem to be trying other ways to deal with
> it.
When you really love someone you go through alot for them and for the
relationship. It's been almost a year and a half since my transition and
things slowly but surely have been getting better. It's a huge shock finding
out your spouse is TS and it can years to adjust. We still have a lot of love
on both sides of our relationship. That is worth a lot of accomidation time .
I know she will nevr get all the way to where I would like her to be but I
think eventually she will come far enough.
Sometimes just venting a little does help, and if you do that here,
> better here than a place where people have no clue what you are going
> through. I wish you the best, Karen.
Actually i get the feeling that peiople here don't even though they think they
do.
This may sound a bit paranoid, I also suspect that there is an Email campain
going on behind the sceens for people here to put up a united front against
me. The phrase one of the people responding to me used "Understand us" made
me realize it.
I will go on posting when I need to even if no one responds. Contrary to
popular belief my posts are not ploys to gain sympathy or attention.
-Karen A.
diane...@my-dejanews.com
"Natasha Fassett" <nata...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Smell the coffee baby, have some guts, be a woman, come out of denial, and
> go out there and claim your dream !!!!!!! DO IT, or quit complaining.
Couldn't have said it better myself even if I hadn't!
<g>
Karen Elizabeth A.
> Stealing my schtick now are we?? <g>
AT least you admit the obvious - that you were not sincere.
Karen Elizabeth A.
> Oh hell you weren't - you were looking for commiseration - for pity for
> attention.
Believe what you will, it's not the case.
> You don't have the courage to take charge of your life
Hmm...
I manged to put myself through college comming from a family with no
education and no money. While working full time i industry, I earned my
Master's Degree part time. I scrimped and saved a lot of years and
bought a house and although I started at 6ft 360lbs when I started, I
overcame my fears and decided to transition and got down to 220lbs,
transitoned dispite poor HRT results (admittedly hoping I would
eventually be able to find the right regamine that would work). Knowing
I was not passable, I transitioned on the job anyway not knowing if I
would be accepted or not. I put myself through 6 months of twice a week
proffesional voice therapy at Mass General Hospital, completed
electrolysis. Had SRS and breast implants.
Sounds like a fair amount of taking charge to me.
In the end I can't have what i worked for and risked everything for due
to factor that *are * truely out of my control. I not built of stone and
I can't deal with that. Sorry for being human.
> so you go
> around playing passive aggressive bullcrap games about how pitiful your life
> is because that's the only control you believe you can get.
My life is not pitiful - I just can what is most important to me - to
have arealistic chance able to be woodwork. It kind of important to you
- else you would not have been so upset over the resume incident thsi
summer.
> Karen - this isn't a matter of weight or passibility or anything else. It's a
> matter of courage - the basic minimums of courage that any human being carry
> around to get them through the day.
I've faced a hell of a lot in my life with a stoicism few can match.,,
but I finally hit something that matters so much to me that I can't fix
well enough that I am no longer capable of that.
> We all, transgendered or otherwise, carry
> around at least that level of basic responsibility for ourselves. Now for
> God's sake grow up and start being responsible for yourself.
I have been since I was a child. I raised myself. I've never had amypne
I could depend on (until I got married) but myself.
> >I was serving up a dose of reality
> > for those early on.
>
> Pfui! Bad enough that you're making you're own life suck now you're going to
> project that onto someone else.
Oh you mean that everyone who transitions finds happiness and fulfilment
and the life they wanted? I don't think so. Most who don't, don't talk
about it much though. Over the yreas I've known a few on line who have
taken their own lives because they could not make things work.
People need to know that HRT does not work magic for everyone and will
not cahnge basic body structure and only a very low percentage of TS's
can afford the services of Dr. Ousterhout and his ilk.
-Karen
An...@my-dejanews.com
never pass as a woman, yet is still afraid of being perceived as a
lesbian if seen in public with her?
> --
> Natasha F
> ----------------------------------------
> Let Love Dispell Hatred
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Natasha Fassett wrote in message ...
> >Your wife seems to be sending you a very clear mixed message. I support
> your
> >"choice" to have SRS but you look like shit and always will. The first part
> >of the message is irrelevant and the second part is what is killing you !
> Go
> >all the way and quit making excuses to stay in your cruel comfort of
> >illusory safety, which has reduced you to a wreck. Since now you have
> >nothing to loose, all your hopes have been dashed, etc.. Move out and break
> >contact for all of your, sakes hers and yours !
> >Your self image will improve rapidly. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOOSE ! BE A
> WOMAN
> >!!!!
> >--
> > Natasha F
> >----------------------------------------
> >Let Love Dispell Hatred
> >----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
k...@world.std.com
An...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Does anyone find it strange that Karen's wife says Karen will
> never pass as a woman, yet is still afraid of being perceived as a
> lesbian if seen in public with her?
She does not now say that i never pass just that I'm often read because of my
size - something that little can be done about. As a matter of fact she
admits she was suprized by how far I have come. No one, including me, says i
never pass at all - just that it's not possible to so so a high enough
percentage of the time that in any sort reasonably sized group I won't be
read.
She feels uncomfortable when I'm not read and she is percieved as a lesbian
(it's happened once or twice) and she is slo uncomfortable when I'm read
because of the social stigma.
She would be perfectly happy to be seen with me if I passed well enough and we
did not act as if we were partners but just two girl friends. If we could
socialize without me being read under those conditions she would be happy.
I hope that clarifies it somewhat. Emotions are not chemical equations that
can be balanced neatly and both things can be true - just not at the same
time.
You know everyone is so ready to blame my wife for my situation. That is
truely not the case. She is not trying to punish me, She is loving and
supportive in many areas of life. In any case, I do not substitute her
judgment for mine nor do I let her form my opinions of myself. The two views
co-incide because that is the reality of the situation. She is not holding be
back in any significant mannor.
-Karen A.
diane...@my-dejanews.com
k...@world.std.com (Karen Elizabeth A.) wrote:
> Oh you mean that everyone who transitions finds happiness and fulfilment
> and the life they wanted?
No Karen, I mean that those who were basically well adjusted happy people
beforehand will find themselves the same after transition and conversly those
who could find neither happiness nor were able to fit into society beforehand
will find their situation little changed by transition or SRS.
> I don't think so. Most who don't, don't talk
> about it much though.
An unprovable hypothesis at best Karen and a self fulfilling one at worst.
Actually anyone listening in on this group for more then a week can easily
see that those who are dissatisfied with an aspect in their lives speak up
quite a bit about it. The problem is not with SRS or transition karen - the
problem is with you. You have a neurotic need to make yourself unsatisfied
and then tell the world about your self-made troubles.
Life's been no bowel of cherries for most of us - the difference between most
of us and yourself is that most of us work through and eventually solve the
setbacks whilst you seem to revel in them.
> People need to know that HRT does not work magic for everyone and will
> not cahnge basic body structure and only a very low percentage of TS's
> can afford the services of Dr. Ousterhout and his ilk.
if I showed you "before" and "after" pictures of me the "magic" would be
obvious. Suffice it to say that I fit in well enough as an Army Sergeant and
Officer Cadet "before" and after - well "Vive la Differance!"
---------
Diane
diane...@my-dejanews.com
Well Duuuhh!
Natasha Fassett
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
An...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <77fptb$3j$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Does anyone find it strange that Karen's wife says Karen will
>never pass as a woman, yet is still afraid of being perceived as a
>lesbian if seen in public with her?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Natasha Fassett
Glad to see you being more positive, but you are still making excuses !
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
k...@world.std.com wrote in message <77g143$t70$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>...
>In article <77fptb$3j$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> An...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> Does anyone find it strange that Karen's wife says Karen will
>> never pass as a woman, yet is still afraid of being perceived as a
>> lesbian if seen in public with her?
>
k...@world.std.com
diane...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> No Karen, I mean that those who were basically well adjusted happy people
> beforehand will find themselves the same after transition and conversly those
> who could find neither happiness nor were able to fit into society beforehand
> will find their situation little changed by transition or SRS.
hmm I wonder why people transition if they are so happy with themselves and
their lives and their place in society? If eveything fits and is working, why
change?
> An unprovable hypothesis at best Karen and a self fulfilling one at worst.
> Actually anyone listening in on this group for more then a week can easily
> see that those who are dissatisfied with an aspect in their lives speak up
> quite a bit about it. The problem is not with SRS or transition karen - the
> problem is with you. You have a neurotic need to make yourself unsatisfied
> and then tell the world about your self-made troubles.
My problems are not self made for the most part IMO. Hell if had an average
build even with the HRT results I've had you would not hear me complain
because I know I would have a realistic shot at what I want. I don't. My
problem is I can't just accept that
> Life's been no bowel of cherries for most of us - the difference between most
> of us and yourself is that most of us work through and eventually solve the
> setbacks whilst you seem to revel in them.
My bigest problem is a physical one for which there is no solution that i can
see. THAT is what is atring me appart. Jyst to give you some idea, I could be
skin and bones but will still take a > 40 bra. Do you know how big a ribcage
that is? and that's how my body is built all over - wide. Hell even my shoes
are WW.
> > People need to know that HRT does not work magic for everyone and will
> > not cahnge basic body structure and only a very low percentage of TS's
> > can afford the services of Dr. Ousterhout and his ilk.
>
> if I showed you "before" and "after" pictures of me the "magic" would be
> obvious. Suffice it to say that I fit in well enough as an Army Sergeant and
> Officer Cadet "before" and after - well "Vive la Differance!"
Generalizing from your own results are dangerous.I can show you a lot of
people (including myself) that there is little differece in. Believe it or
not ther IS a wide variety of response to HRT. It does make the majority
reasonably passable with time - but not all. I'm in that minority and that is
exacerbated by the bad luck of my build. Women simply DON"T have frames like
mine and because my HRT results are mininal there is no way to hide that all
the time.
As I said we had a couple over for supper Sunday who have not seen me since
before HRT. They could not see much difference and it's been 3 years. It's
not my imagination or a wish to fail or be miserable. It's reality. I'm just
a bit lucky my facial features were not overly masculine (except for the
forehead) BEFORE HRT. Even with my size I had some reason to have a little
bit of initial optimism. How things have worked aout i can't accept but cant
change significantly.
wen...@postoffice.swbell.net
Karen Elizabeth A. wrote:
<diane's stuff deleted>
> People need to know that HRT does not work magic for everyone and will
> not cahnge basic body structure and only a very low percentage of TS's
> can afford the services of Dr. Ousterhout and his ilk.
>
> -Karen
What the fuck I am doing get more involved in this I don't know, but the above is
just too much. I started with an advantage- I'm small framed and not too tall. I
started HRT at age 36 and it has been a major success. It can and will change body
structure in _most individuals_. The changes will only accelerate after SRS. I am
only five months post-op and there has been a remarkable improvement in my skin.
Now this is just me, but in general the results are there to be seen. Else why do
it?? Just get clipped and go on....
And regarding the statement made concerning Dr. Ousterholt and "his ilk", well, what
I seem to be hearing is "I would do it if I could afford it but I can't so pity
me." This process, as I have stated elsewhere, is anything but inexpensive. If I
could offer any one piece of advice to a newcomer it would be PREPARE TO SPEND AT
LEAST $25,000 BEFORE YOU ARE FINISHED. Sounds like a lot, eh?? When I was in
Montreal an F2M there spent twice that much on total phalloplasty. Count your
blessings, girls.
Karen, I don't know you, never seen you, and doubtfully ever will. But I am a firm
believer in the tenet one makes one's own luck. I am sorry that life has dealt you
a shitty hand, but you can either bluff your way out of it, fold and take your
lumps, or start a new game. The only person who can control your destiny is you.
k...@world.std.com
"Natasha Fassett" <nata...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Karen you most definitely DID say you would never pass.
*IF* I said that, I meant I will never pass *well enough* to woodwork. I've
said that visually I probably pass *casual* glances about 90% of the time -
BUT that means 1 out of every 10 people reads me. It's impossible to build
can't the life I want because of it.
-karen
k...@world.std.com
> What the fuck I am doing get more involved in this I don't know, but the above is
> just too much. I started with an advantage- I'm small framed and not too tall. I
> started HRT at age 36 and it has been a major success. It can and will change body
> structure in _most individuals_.
It will NOT change your fram after your bones stop growing. That can not
happen. What you are talking about is fat redistribution not a basic change
in structure. At least get your facts straight.
The majority do get good fat redistribution *BUT* a sizable minority does not.
> The changes will only accelerate after SRS. I am
> only five months post-op and there has been a remarkable improvement in my skin.
I am also just about 5 months post-op amd have had no noticble changes since
and I can guarentee you that my estrogens levels are one heck of a lot higher
then yours.
> Now this is just me, but in general the results are there to be seen. Else
> why do it?? Just get clipped and go on....
Why do what? What do you mean by that?
I've had changes but they have been minor. After 3 years I never even grew
breasts for goodness sakes!!! HRT results *ARE* highy variable and individual.
> And regarding the statement made concerning Dr. Ousterholt and "his ilk", well, what
> I seem to be hearing is "I would do it if I could afford it but I can't so pity
> me."
Not at all. Actually if i was rolling in money I probaly would as it could not
hurt - but as it would not solve my main problems and let me have the life I
want, it's kind of hard to justify - particulary with all I've spent in this
process so far.
I happen to know a number of TS's that can not and will likely never be able
to afford the ~50K (bone work + required face lift afterward) that the full
works from Dr. O entails.
This process, as I have stated elsewhere, is anything but inexpensive.
> If I
> could offer any one piece of advice to a newcomer it would be PREPARE TO SPEND AT
> LEAST $25,000 BEFORE YOU ARE FINISHED.
I have spent close to that even with insurance coverage for SRS and only
cosmetic surgery I had was breast implants at the time of SRS!
> But I am a firm
> believer in the tenet one makes one's own luck. I am sorry that life has dealt you
> a shitty hand, but you can either bluff your way out of it, fold and take your
> lumps, or start a new game.
One can't live a bluff indefinetly, I can't (won't if you prefer) change what
I want - it's why i went through all of this in the first place, and as to
folding if i do it will be for good.
> The only person who can control your destiny is you.
A person's destinity is rarely *totally* in their control. You do what you can
but that does not insure things will work out.
I need to get to realisticly get to where I want but I can;t see how to make
it happen. I've seen people delude themselves about this.
If I can't I will not survive - certainly not emotionally or spiritually.
I've never been good on compromise.
-Karen
Kristine
k...@world.std.com wrote in message <77gdun$3v6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <77g5ek$9jq$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>,
> diane...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>> No Karen, I mean that those who were basically well adjusted happy people
>> beforehand will find themselves the same after transition and conversly
those
>> who could find neither happiness nor were able to fit into society
beforehand
>> will find their situation little changed by transition or SRS.
>
>hmm I wonder why people transition if they are so happy with themselves and
>their lives and their place in society? If eveything fits and is working,
why
>change?
Being "well adjusted" does not intrinsically mean "happy." A well-adjusted
person is one who has learned to balance all the external influences and
stressors in their life in such a way as to find some sense of stability in
life. A maladjusted person is incapable of achieving this balance and often
feels buffeted by the vagaries of fate, a "victim." "Happiness" is just a
fortuitous side-effect of the former; despair often strides in the shoes of
the latter. Being well-adjusted does mean require blindly accepting one's
fate and "being happy" with it.
>My problems are not self made for the most part IMO. Hell if had an average
>build even with the HRT results I've had you would not hear me complain
>because I know I would have a realistic shot at what I want. I don't. My
>problem is I can't just accept that
And just exactly who can change that???
-- Kristine
PamelaRose
> That's the delight of being a
> woman, the artistry of continually creating ourselves. Now, eight
> years later, I find that I'm still learning, still transitioning, as I
> become more attuned to the unspoken language of women, the small
> kindnesses and graceful play of femininity. I'm learning the subtle
> awareness of nuance as the dance of life. A lot of this is stuff I
> should have learned at eight years old, except that my socialization
> as female child went somewhat awry.
>
Dear Cheryl,
Would you and any other person in this group share what you have learned
in your transition with the begginers like me who's socialization as a
female child went very awry. It's the little things that are so important
and so hard to figure out.
Thanks and huggggggs
pammie
--
'<® @ @ @ @ s/"he who's not busy ®>,-
®>,- @ \|/ @ \|/ @ \|/ @ @ \|/ being born -'<®
-'<® \|/ | @ \|/ | \|/ @ | | \|/ @ | @ is busy dying "®>,-
®>,- PamelaRoseuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu B. Dylan -'<®
Natasha Fassett
THEN I MET A WOMAN THAT DOESN'T APPRECIATE THE ONES SHE HAS !
I really gotta pity her,, NOT !!!!!!
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
RosePress wrote in message <19990112200445...@ngol03.aol.com>...
>
>diane...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>
>>Life's been no bowel of cherries for most of us
>
>Egads! A brown stain on the Freudian slip!
>
>Aghast -- Ellen Rose
>
>Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Natasha Fassett
Well, CASE CLOSED > another one for the X- FILES, x people I waste my
time responding to.
Michelle Steiner
<hami...@hamiltonlabs.com> wrote:
> Okay, I think I've had it by now and it's time to line up and shoot down
> some myths.
What is the purpose of this message, Nikki? It's not going to change
Karen's mind about herself one whit; all it will do is piss her off
more than she is already. If it's to convince everyone that Karen's
pessimism is unrealistic, why bother? Those of us who have met her
already know that, and those who haven't met her have probably figured
it out.
I don't see anything constructive that could possibly result from your
message.
--Michelle
Michelle Steiner
<hami...@hamiltonlabs.com> wrote:
> But also, contrary to your implication that I'm doing this only to piss
> Karen off or because I'm pissed off,
No, that's not my implication. What I meant is that's all that it will
do even though that's not your intent, so why bother?
> I do honestly wish Karen would take my comments to heart because I
> think if she did, she could improve her lot. I appreciate that this
> does appear to be as pointless as trying to teach a pig to sing, but
> I dunno, I just gotta try anyway. If I thought you life was circling
> the bowl and you needed a good knock on the head to wake up, I'd do
> the same for you, too. :)
But after a while, wouldn't you get tired of it? Karen is a friend of
mine, but I recognize the limitations inherent here, so I no longer
give her any advice about improving her lot in life, but I also don't
criticize her. Neither will do either her or me any good.
I think that the best thing to do is ignore her "I can't pass and won't
have a life" messages, but respond to anything else she writes if
that's appropriate. Anyway, that's what I'm doing.
I think that what you're doing, even with all the good intentions you
have, simply is futile.
--Michelle
Natasha Fassett
Michelles.
Lest we forget in this modern age how oft the improbable doth startle us,
LET THE SINGING LESSONS CONTINUE < I hope you don't think me impertinent
to cast in my lot with you . I have never met her,yet years ago in the
mirror, someone ever so like her.
Would that I then had friends such as you . Perhaps I would have roused
myself more swiftly.
BTW Nicky , I love the way you write, cogent, crisp, vivid, and ever so
heartfelt it is palpable.
Karen is fortunate to have this electronic medium, confrontational yet not.
I believe this group is very
therapeutic, certainly it is for me.
Thank you.
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
Nicole Hamilton wrote in message
<01be3ebb$94ce0a10$0732180c@hamiltonlabs>...
>Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
>> What is the purpose of this message, Nikki?
>
>What is the purpose? Geez, Michelle, I should have imagined it was pretty
>clear. This is a discussion and support group and I participate pretty
>fully. I'm getting tired of having every friggin' thread hijacked into a
>discussion of whether Karen does or does not pass and whether it's because
>of poor HRT results. It annoyed the hell out of me to see her use Dawn's
>comments as the latest jumping off point, especially considering all that
>Dawn has had to go through. It was just unseemly.
>
>But also, contrary to your implication that I'm doing this only to piss
>Karen off or because I'm pissed off, I do honestly wish Karen would take my
>comments to heart because I think if she did, she could improve her lot. I
>appreciate that this does appear to be as pointless as trying to teach a
>pig to sing, but I dunno, I just gotta try anyway. If I thought you life
>was circling the bowl and you needed a good knock on the head to wake up,
>I'd do the same for you, too. :)
>--
>Nicki Hamilton
>http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/biography.htm
>
diane...@my-dejanews.com
k...@world.std.com wrote:
> hmm I wonder why people transition if they are so happy with themselves and
> their lives and their place in society? If eveything fits and is working, why
> change?
Because there is a world of diference in not liking yourself and not liking
which gender you happenned to be born into. The former is a far more serious
and difficult condition to cure and is often confused, even by those seeking
SRS, with the latter condition which is cured by a few femmy pills and a bit
of cut and paste.
> My problems are not self made for the most part IMO.
Excuse me while I gag myself with this handy spoon....
Karen ALL your problems are self-induced. Problem have solutions and when you
refuse to implement the solution then YOU become the problem. Wife doesn't
like you're lifestyle? Too Fat?? Problems at work??? Deal with it. If you
don't - or won't - then YOU are the problem.
> My bigest problem is a physical one for which there is no solution that i can
> see. THAT is what is atring me appart.
No you're biggest problem is that you're boring all those around you (and I"m
not just talking about this newsgroup) with your incessant whining about your
"unsolveable" problems. Heck you annoy the bejezus out of me just listening
to the occasional snippets on the newsgroup - I pity the souls who must have
to hear this in 3D. People will isolate themselves from you ,just as I and
others have, because if you haven't grown up already then they certainly
aren't going to spend the time to nursemaid you through the same difficulties
that all of us - yes ALL of us go through. THAT'S what sets you apart.
> Generalizing from your own results are dangerous.I can show you a lot of
> people (including myself) that there is little differece in. Believe it or
> not ther IS a wide variety of response to HRT. It does make the majority
> reasonably passable with time - but not all. I'm in that minority and that is
> exacerbated by the bad luck of my build. Women simply DON"T have frames like
> mine and because my HRT results are mininal there is no way to hide that all
> the time.
Whine whine whine.... So you're not Miss America. Neither am I. Get over it
and get on with life because frankely my dear most of us don't give a damn.
Why should we if you dont?
Nicole Hamilton
> ... 6ft 360lbs when I started, I overcame my fears
> and decided to transition and got down to 220lbs,
> People need to know that HRT does not work magic
> for everyone and will not cahnge basic body structure
> and only a very low percentage of TS's can afford
> the services of Dr. Ousterhout and his ilk.
Okay, I think I've had it by now and it's time to line up and shoot down
some myths.
Myth #1: Karen had poor results on HRT.
She didn't. Okay, she didn't grow huge boobs but then again very few TS
women approaching or past 40 get all that much development. And anyway,
this is an eminently fixable problem and one shared with a whole lot of
genetic females! That's why they invented implants, which Karen =got=!
Given the rest of what we face, does it really matter whether you got your
boobs through hormones or with the help of a surgeon? I'm getting implants
just like most everyone else here. You think I or anyone else loses a lot
of sleep that they can't have "real" boobs? Give me a break! The rest of
us have lives to lead and no time for that nonsense.
As for the rest of her "poor results," well, what could this possibly mean?
Karen has, by her own admission, probably the most feminine features of
anyone in our local support group here in Boston. Okay, well, maybe I'm
catching up a little, but golly, it cost me $27,000 and some incredibly
intense pain (see http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/FacialSurgery.htm) to even
get into the same ballpark with her. And I still don't have a complexion
like Karen's. The only person I know with skin like that is my 8-year-old
child! The skin on Karen's hands is just like that, too.
Me, my skin looks (because it's true) like I spent too much time bicycling
in the Texas sun when I was in my 20s and then scarred it up for good
measure with some poor electrolysis. I've seen oranges with smoother skin
than mine! Okay, maybe I can fix it somewhat, but the way to do that is
laser skin resurfacing, which works (not without risk) by painfully frying
off the whole top layer of skin on your face, leaving your face
indistinguishable from a mound of oozing hamburger for a week or so. Even
supposing I do all that, it's pretty obvious to me my skin will never look
like Karen's. But do you see me pulling a Karen number here, poor Nicole,
her skin is so bad? Oh, horseshit! Of course not!
So what's left? Well, there's body hair, I guess, but Karen hasn't got a
lot of that. Okay, I don't have a lot either, but I've had hundreds of
hours of electrolysis all over my whole body to get there.
Finally, I suppose in some fantasy world estrogen might work as a great
diet pill or maybe even shrink one's skeletal frame, but I just don't see
that happening in this one. Which brings me to myth #2.
Myth #2: Karen is saddled with a big build that's beyond her control.
In another message she posted into this discussion, Karen claims she was on
a diet of only 1200 calories/day for a year and a half. Well, I've known
Karen for over a year and anytime there's food around, Karen eats like
she's getting ready to hibernate. She's got an eating disorder.
Last spring, she and I and another friend drove down in my car together to
see Menard speak at the XX Club in Hartford. On the way out the door, I
grabbed up a bunch of bags of Pepperidge Farm cookies and other munchies
out of my kitchen just to throw in the car for the drive. It was lots of
stuff because it was lots of kinds and I didn't know what anyone liked. We
got onto the Mass Pike and immediately had to stop so Karen could stock up
with a Whopper and fries and whatever else they had. By the time we got to
Hartford (at most, a two-hour drive) I looked in the back seat to discover
Karen had eaten =everything=. Usually when people eat cookies, they leave
crumbs. There wasn't even a crumb. So this was a Whopper, fries,
whatever, plus something like two or three pounds of cookies in a period of
two hours.
After the talk, a bunch of us walked over to get an early dinner at a local
restaurant. While everyone else was ordering stuff like a little cup of
clam chowder; Karen ordered something they brought out in a bucket! Well,
maybe not a bucket, but it was a =huge= bowl of soup, followed by an
enormous dinner.
1200 calories/day? When was that? One day when Burger King was closed?
Yes, it's true that Karen is a little tall (about 6', I guess) and she may
be somewhat "big-boned." But mostly, she's big because she eats too much.
She talks about her 40" ribcage as if these were the bones sticking out.
Well, let me tell you, it's not bones. If Karen were to get her weight
down into a healthy range for a female her height, her body would look much
better. Maybe not immediately, because obviously she might experience some
problems of loose skin 'till it tightened back up, but ultimately, she'd
look much better.
You've all seen her claims that she's tried it to see if she'd look better
slimmer and it didn't help. Absurd! She's never gotten her weight down
anywhere near where she should and, no surprise, to look at her, I doubt
she can spell exercise, much less that she's ever really done any.
Myth #3. Karen doesn't pass because she's too big.
This is not Karen's real problem passing, to whatever extent she even has a
problem. The real problems are in other areas: First, she's done almost
nothing to modify her behavior to be all that feminine. Look at her
sitting on a couch, for example, and she's usually got one leg up over the
other, resting an ankle on her knee, guy-style. Her "excuse" is that she
can't cross her legs at the knees like a woman because (how did this
happen?) she's too fat. When she walks, she carries her shoulders hunched
forward with her arms held close to her body, sort of like a quarterback
sneaking the ball. She seems to make no attempt to mimic the loose, fluid
style of movement you see typical of most women.
Second, she rarely smiles and has this look about her as if she's just
shoplifted something and doesn't want to be caught. She looks guilty! You
can't do that and expect to pass!
Third, her clothing and makeup have all the style and pizzazz of a rummage
sale. Now, I really do appreciate that when you're that big (once again,
how did this happen?), that it must be more difficult to find interesting
clothes. But I was struck by Andrea Bennett's suggestion (originally over
in s.s.tg) that Karen should work on these things. So far as I know, I
don't think Andrea's ever seen Karen or would have any other way of knowing
this is a problem, but I'll tell you, it is.
Now, okay, I admit, maybe I should talk! Me, I'm rarely in anything but
jeans and tee shirts, wearing only my breakfast, certainly no makeup! But
the difference is I haven't been the one moaning about passing. So it
seems to me that if you are worried enough to complain, it ought to be
worth it to you to work on a flattering, professional woman's wardrobe.
Heck, the other day, I was visiting a customer (a big local software
company) and there's everyone all dressed up, including a couple women I
thought had to be even bigger than Karen and they looked great. But the
difference is they were wearing some great clothes; stuff you could put
over a Buick and make it look sexy.
Myth #4. Karen doesn't pass.
Well, this one's the most stupidly annoying of the whole bunch. Frankly,
she makes so little genuine effort to pass besides jabbing herself with
estrodial injections, you'd think she really wouldn't pass. And you'd be
wrong! She actually passes just fine. Certainly, before I went off to
Ousterhout, I'm sure she was passing better than I was. Matter of fact, if
anyone saw me first in profile, I almost always got read. But again, there
were some healthy differences: First, I was able to keep some perspective
here, dammit! Passing is NOT everything and though I fully admit that
while I revel today in what Ousterhout has done for me, anyone who knows me
can tell you I was a happy person before this even when I expected I would
never pass all that well. For me, and I suggest, for anyone who's TS, the
reason to transition is so you can be =you=, not so you can pass. And your
measure of success should be how well you =are= you, not whether you pass.
Second, I was willing to do something about it. I was willing to spend
some money and undergo a lot of pain on something that honestly I was not
sure would necessarily improve anything. I was also willing to accept the
consequences of the surgery, which not everyone talks about, namely that my
nose near the septum and the whole top of my head are completely numb, with
no guarantee that sensation will ever return. (This is the inevitable
consequence of the incisions Ousterhout has to make across the nerves.) I
was also willing to accept the risk of possible facial paralysis and other
complications. As a friend in NY who's also an Ousterhout grad, put it:
Ousterhout's patients tend to look better than they feel. Well, whatever,
I viewed all this as a small consequence, but the point is, I was willing
to do something and I was willing to accept that nothing in life of any
value is ever free.
Finally, I am annoyed by the comment about the few TS who can afford
"Ousterhout and his ilk." I find this just a little offensive. Okay, yes,
I had the money to spend on Ousterhout. Well, guess what? The reason I
had it is because I took big chances and worked my tail off these last 11
years starting a business. And it =was= hard. When I started my business,
I went from, I dunno, maybe $70K/year in 1987 as an engineering manager to
ZERO(!!) for the next 15 months as I wrote the first release of my product.
My first full year of sales after that, I had a net income of $710. The
next year, my net was still less than $11K. So for better than 3 years, I
averaged less than $4K/year of income. It wasn't 'till about year 5 or 6
that my income was even roughly back to where it was before quitting my
job, even setting aside inflation. Whatever money I have isn't just luck
or something that just fell on me, it's something I earned. Karen has a
good professional income that many of you would probably die for but the
reason it's not more than that is because she hasn't done what it takes to
earn more than that.
But setting aside money -- and we should, because there are plenty of
people in Karen's circumstances who do figure out how to afford Ousterhout
if that's really what they want -- Karen doesn't need Ousterhout anyway.
Her face is already quite feminine. The real issue, the real reason Karen
is always so unhappy has nothing to do with any sort bad luck she's had
with HRT or the body she was born with or any of that stuff.
Karen is not willing to fix her life. She wants the outcomes but is not
willing to pay the price. She is only willing to complain.
Cindy19942
>I will never pass *well enough* to woodwork. I've
>said that visually I probably pass *casual* glances about 90% of the time -
>BUT that means 1 out of every 10 people reads me. It's impossible to build
>can't the life I want because of it.
Then accept the situation and make the best of it. This doesn't mean you can't
live and be accepted as a woman, you just won't be able to be totally stealth.
That is not as bad as you seem to think. Your womanhood is not dependant upon
your past being hidden and never being figured out. It doesn't have to matter
if other's figure out you are a post op Transsexual IF they still accept you as
a woman.
Make it your goal to be so completely the woman you are, so comfortable in
being the woman you are, that those, who read you as a Transsexual woman or are
informed of it by someone else who reads you, determine that it is in the end
irrelevant to your womanhood.
They will only do so when they pick up from your manner, confidence and
demeanor that you consider it irrelevant and that you truly are a woman, even
if you do have a frame that makes it so many realize you are a Transsexual too.
I am glad you are on anti-depressants, I think they will help you gain such
confidence. If they don't tell your Md and get another prescription until it
works.
Take Care........Love & Joy!
Cindy Starchild
http://members.aol.com/Cindy19942
{to email me remove "nojunk" from my e-mail address}
RosePress
In article <77gl5s$an6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, k...@world.std.com writes:
>*IF* I said that, I meant I will never pass *well enough* to woodwork. I've
>said that visually I probably pass *casual* glances about 90% of the time -
>BUT that means 1 out of every 10 people reads me. It's impossible to build
>can't the life I want because of it.
Silly Karen! Demanding perfection -- of yourself or others -- leads only to
performance anxiety. I have no numeric idea how well I'm passing, but wouldn't
be surprised to find it in the neighborhood of 90%.
The question, rather, is how well people treat you. Do they act as if their
life is better for having you in it? I get that, even from my 10%. If they like
you, they'll accept you. And isn't it acceptance as yourself that's important?
Hugs -- Ellen Rose
RosePress
diane...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>Life's been no bowel of cherries for most of us
Egads! A brown stain on the Freudian slip!
Aghast -- Ellen Rose
Karen Elizabeth A.
>>
> Myth #1: Karen had poor results on HRT.
>
> She didn't. Okay, she didn't grow huge boobs but then again very few TS
> women approaching or past 40 get all that much development.
I got just about no body fat redistribution and not much facial change.
> As for the rest of her "poor results," well, what could this possibly mean?
> Karen has, by her own admission, probably the most feminine features of
> anyone in our local support group here in Boston.
Those "feartures" were mostly in place BEFORE HRT.
> get into the same ballpark with her. And I still don't have a complexion
> like Karen's. The only person I know with skin like that is my 8-year-old
> child! The skin on Karen's hands is just like that, too.
Not on the hands. But I have gotten geart skin out of this and I admit
that. It's the one area where I *have* gotten good results.
> like Karen's. But do you see me pulling a Karen number here, poor Nicole,
> her skin is so bad? Oh, horseshit! Of course not!
You have a build in the normal female range. Mine is NOWHERE near it.
> So what's left? Well, there's body hair, I guess, but Karen hasn't got a
> lot of that.
Actually I do but I shave it.
> Myth #2: Karen is saddled with a big build that's beyond her control.
>
> In another message she posted into this discussion, Karen claims she was on
> a diet of only 1200 calories/day for a year and a half. Well, I've known
> Karen for over a year and anytime there's food around, Karen eats like
> she's getting ready to hibernate. She's got an eating disorder.
You are not in possestion of all the facts (not that it ever stops you
from having an opinion) . I am not lying. If you have the courage ask my
wife about the time I was dieting. She was absolutely amazed by the
willpower I displayed and the length of time I kept it up. I showed you
pictures of what I looked like when i weighed 360lbs - remember?
I lost all that weight with that diet before you met me - and much of it
befor I joined the group in the year I decided that i would transition.
Last Febuary I was down to 220lbs - the lowest I've been since the 8th
grade.I've been told my an MD that with my build below 180 would not be
a healty weight.
When I realized that losing weight actually made me look worst because
of my frame I lost the drive to keep it up and went a bit too far back
in the other direction. It ws actually with the hope that, with the
increased HRT it would go back on in the right places.
> Last spring, she and I and another friend drove down in my car together to
> see Menard speak at the XX Club in Hartford. On the way out the door, I
> grabbed up a bunch of bags of Pepperidge Farm cookies and other munchies
> out of my kitchen just to throw in the car for the drive. It was lots of
> stuff because it was lots of kinds and I didn't know what anyone liked. We
> got onto the Mass Pike and immediately had to stop so Karen could stock up
> with a Whopper and fries and whatever else they had.
I had a chicken sandwich small fries and a diet coke and had not eaten a
bite previously that day. Stop exagerating!!!
> After the talk, a bunch of us walked over to get an early dinner at a local
> restaurant. While everyone else was ordering stuff like a little cup of
> clam chowder; Karen ordered something they brought out in a bucket! Well,
> maybe not a bucket, but it was a =huge= bowl of soup, followed by an
> enormous dinner.
I ordered a bowl of Chowder not knowing the size having never been in
that restaurant and a single entree.
> 1200 calories/day? When was that? One day when Burger King was closed?
You damm well KNOW I put on a lot of weight since I met you. You saw the
pictures of me at 360lbs and you saw me at my lowest weight (if you can
remeber - you were going through a rough time tehn). HOW DARE YOU CALL
ME A LIAR when you have seen the effinence of that diet with your own
eyes. You forget facts when the are convient I see.
For that year and a half I was doing the intesive dieting by daily meals
consisted of:
Breafast:one cup of cereal with 1 cup of 2% milk (scrupulously measured)
Lunch: A Lean Cusine or Healty Choice meal < 300 caleries and < 20%
calories from fat amd a diet coke.
Supper: a frozen dinner meeting the same critera
Any snacks: Apples/or oranges
> Yes, it's true that Karen is a little tall (about 6', I guess) and she may
> be somewhat "big-boned." But mostly, she's big because she eats too much.
> She talks about her 40" ribcage as if these were the bones sticking out.
> Well, let me tell you, it's not bones.
You want to feel my ribcage? When I was 220lbs the ribs were sticking
out some (for the first time in my life I may add) and i measured 42"
around the chest. There was not much fat was left there as I tend to put
it on in the stomach and thighs - ALWAY have. Hell even at 360 lbs I had
no psuedo breasts that you see on really heavy men!
> If Karen were to get her weight
> down into a healthy range for a female her height, her body would look much
> better. Maybe not immediately, because obviously she might experience some
> problems of loose skin 'till it tightened back up, but ultimately, she'd
> look much better.
Been down far enough to know that just ain't so. When I was at that
weight I got more stares then I do now.
> Look at her
> sitting on a couch, for example, and she's usually got one leg up over the
> other, resting an ankle on her knee, guy-style. Her "excuse" is that she
> can't cross her legs at the knees like a woman because (how did this
> happen?) she's too fat.
I have nver rested my anke on my knee. When I do it's my calf AND with
agroup of TS's where I'm not thimking about it.
> When she walks, she carries her shoulders hunched
> forward with her arms held close to her body, sort of like a quarterback
> sneaking the ball. She seems to make no attempt to mimic the loose, fluid
> style of movement you see typical of most women.
I have aa major curvature of the spine. If I can get my Xrays from the
hospital I can show it to you. It is PIANFUL for me to walk with ,y
shoulders bacl for any length of time.
> Second, she rarely smiles and has this look about her as if she's just
> shoplifted something and doesn't want to be caught. She looks guilty! You
> can't do that and expect to pass!
That's not because of passing concerns but because I'm feeling bad. I do
smile when I'm feeling good.
> Third, her clothing and makeup have all the style and pizzazz of a rummage
> sale.
Excuse me bu I COULD say a good bit about your taste in clothes bit i
won't stop to that. (You however have had no compunctions about
critizing others in the group on that point to me). I have ben
complement on by clothing make up and color coordination by numerous
people. I happen to work in a chemical laboratory BTW and was critized
by some of teh women at first for OVER dressing for that enviorment
(simply too dressy).
> Now, I really do appreciate that when you're that big (once again,
> how did this happen?), that it must be more difficult to find interesting
> clothes.
Nicki If I lost every once of extra weight I would still be in the plus
sizes. Also unlike you I can't go into Filenes and buy out theit entire
stock of sweaters in my size (have you worn them all yet?)
> But I was struck by Andrea Bennett's suggestion (originally over
> in s.s.tg) that Karen should work on these things. So far as I know, I
> don't think Andrea's ever seen Karen or would have any other way of knowing
> this is a problem, but I'll tell you, it is.
Not in my opinion.
> seems to me that if you are worried enough to complain, it ought tobe
> worth it to you to work on a flattering, professional woman's wardrobe.
For my profession I have. The technical women dress less well then I do
in my company!
> Heck, the other day, I was visiting a customer (a big local software
> company) and there's everyone all dressed up, including a couple women I
> thought had to be even bigger than Karen and they looked great. But the
> difference is they were wearing some great clothes; stuff you could put
> over a Buick and make it look sexy.
Sexy is not appropriate for the lab. If have no place to wear that type
of stuff and it's a bit expensive to decorate my closet with.
> Myth #4. Karen doesn't pass.
> And you'd be
> wrong! She actually passes just fine.
I have numerous incidents that have nothing to do with behavior cues
that show otherwise. And as I said no gg I know personally thinks so.
> never pass all that well. For me, and I suggest, for anyone who's TS, the
> reason to transition is so you can be =you=, not so you can pass. And your
> measure of success should be how well you =are= you, not whether you pass.
In an ideal world but - but thsi is an ideal world.
> Second, I was willing to do something about it. I was willing to spend
> some money and undergo a lot of pain on something that honestly I was not
> sure would necessarily improve anything.
You did not have to risk keeping a roof over your head and the head of
your spouse to do it. I am certainly willing to undergo the pain. Heck I
expected a lot more then I had with SRS and was willing to bare it.
> I was also willing to accept the
> consequences of the surgery, which not everyone talks about, namely that my
> nose near the septum and the whole top of my head are completely numb, with
> no guarantee that sensation will ever return. (This is the inevitable
> consequence of the incisions Ousterhout has to make across the nerves.) I
> was also willing to accept the risk of possible facial paralysis and other
> complications.
> or something that just fell on me, it's something I earned. Karen has a
> good professional income that many of you would probably die for
And it's only been in the last 5 years that it's gotten there with the
bigest part of that comming AFTER transition. In any case it's barely
enough to pay the mortage on a very modest, old 3 bedroom ranch a good
bit out of the city. I've not put anything into saving for over 3 years
and the savings I had went to finance transition - and don't forget my
wife is not working and is in school full time.
I'n 43 years old have essentially no retierment saving and no family to
help me out in a pinch no one to count on for anything but myself.
> but the
> reason it's not more than that is because she hasn't done what it takes to
> earn more than that.
Well I guess that is some sort of backhanded compliment as that means
you think I'm capable of more. I have done the best i know how to with
the abilities I have. From where I started and considering the situation
I grew up in I've gone far.
> Her face is already quite feminine.
If you saw what I looked like when I get up in the morming without the
bangs in place and hair a mess so that it's not softening the line at
the back of my jaw then you would realize it's not nearly as feminine as
you think. Again, woodworking is not realistic if you have to wear
exactly the right clothes, do makeup and hair well just to pass isted of
just to look OK. I'm not jsut staring out her. I've been working at
transition for 4 years, HRT for 3 and have electrolysis complete.
> Karen is not willing to fix her life. She wants the outcomes but is not
> willing to pay the price. She is only willing to complain.
I have done all I've said I've done - which is quite a lot.
-Karen
Karen Elizabeth A.
> The question, rather, is how well people treat you. Do they act as if
> their life is better for having you in it? I get that, even from my 10%.
> If they like you, they'll accept you. And isn't it acceptance as yourself
> that's important?
People accept me as a TS just fine. It's not enough.
-Karen A,
KarenA1013
I have not seen any of your posts as they not shown up on my normal news
server and have only just seen them through my AOL account.
che...@nowhere.com wrote:
<<
We've heard this a number of times from you, Karen, but you have a
mistaken impression of what stealth is. It's not a geographical
escape, but a willingness to cut loose of all binding ties, forgo all
security and familiarity, and build life anew.
>>
At this point in my life I can't do that type of stealth. Woodworking would be
the only way.
> It requires a
> willingness to start over with little more than native wit and faith
> in yourself that you can make it happen. Frankly, with your attitude,
> you wouldn't survive a week no matter what you looked like.
I have been a survivor all my life but never let myself care as much about
anything as this. You are right that, at this point, I don't have faith that I
can make it which is the biggest *internal* problem I have (the external is
real as well IMO). It scares the heck out of me.
<<
When I went stealth, I worked as a waitress and a hotel chambermaid,
which was a bit of a comedown from $50k a year. These were menial,
unglamorous jobs. The only saving grace was the wonderful acceptance
of the other women I worked with. I don't think anyone knew, but if
they did it wouldn't have mattered, since I lived under the same
parameters as any other woman.
>>
If I believed I could pass well enough that no on would know (asumming my wife
could be taken care of) I truely would not mind starting over to build a life
as a woman. I am not afraid of hard work and I am no stranger to low paying
jobs.
<<
Same low wages, lousy hours and
working conditions, but it was pure joy to have women friends who
accepted me as another woman.
>>
I have only felt that type of acceptance for a very brief period but it is
something I will never forget.
<<
You continue to bemoan your fate, which from what I can tell is pretty
good compared to the circumstances of many transsexual and genetic
women.
>>
Better the some and worst then others - both TS's and genetic women.
<<
You had your surgey paid for, which many of us don't get,
you've managed to continue in your career and marriage. If that's
falling apart, it's no one else's fault but your own.
>>
On that I agree.
<<
Instead of
working very hard to secure the foundations of what you do have and
build upon that, you complain constantly about what hasn't been given
to you.
>>
For my body has been my biggest issue for most of my life. The way things have
gone I find very difficult to bear. Believe me I would trade the other things
for a reasonable body and good HRT results.
I believe I have worked hard at it. When things have looked like they would
not work I have to admit I backed off out of fear of failure. I know this is
self defeating but in a way it's also self protecting. If I pulled out all the
stops even though there does not appear to be away to make it work, if it does
not I'm left with no possibilities.
I have worked hard but i hit a wall that I honestly belive has a high
probability of being unclimable. Finding out for sure would kill me.
<<
You come across to me as a very selfish person. You want what you
want now, and damn everyone else who's stood beside you through all
this. Your wife has remained with you through your SRS, which is
exceptional compared to the experience of most TSs, yet you portray
her as holding you back.
>>
I've tried to present a balanced picture.
In some ways she is and some ways she is supportive nad in some ways she is
holding me back. That's how she herself has portayed it. She has said in
matters of transition ,she is my worst enemy.
<<
Your employer not only kept you on, but
promoted you. What are you doing for either of them? Are you
becoming the best spouse and employee you can possibly be, or are they
simply adjuncts to the world according to Karen?
>>
I am doing the best I can for her and I always have. Sometimes I'm not sure
what that is anymore.
<<
Part of being a woman is an attitude of sharing and caring for others.
I see none of that in your posts, it's all about me me me. I wonder
if you are even capable of empathy toward others.
>>
Quite a lot actually. I've had sevaeral people at work seek me out to talk
about their problems because of it. I only show one side of myself here because
I adressing the central issues I'n struggling with internally.
<<
The situation of
Dawn, and thousands of other TSs like her, is a case in point. There
are many in much worse circumstances than you are, but that becomes
merely a springboard to launch the latest round of Why Karen Can't
Pass. That makes me nauseous.
>>
I had no intention of making that intial post another round of all of that. I
was hurting and reacted with no forethought or plan. Please believe me in that
at least.
<<
In recent posts, we've had complaints about further indignities of
having to put money into your car, about how you regret having breast
implants, and other absurdities. You could care less about girls
selling their bodies on the street just for food and shelter and
hormones when they can get them. The problems of anyone else are
completely irrelevant to you, because there's no room for compassion
or consideration.
>>
Again you don't know me out side of the context of transition and my issues
surounding it. Surfice it to say I have heloped more then a few people in my
life.
<<
Stealth wouldn't do anything at all for you, Karen. You still won't
be accepted as a woman by other women, as long as you maintain that
your supposed suffering is the only thing that matters.
>>
Right now I am preocuupied with myself, that I admit - but that is not all of
who I am. Why do you think my wife is still with me and even my mother in law
still likes me? I've not been rejected by any non-TS who knows ne reasonably
well. The reason for that is I am decent human being who tries to hurt no one
and do the best i can.
My worst fears going into transition about physical changes have been realized.
Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion but it feels like my guts
have been ripped out.
<<
I know women
working two jobs to put food on the table for their kids, because
their husbands left them.
>>
I'm the child of such a family I'm well aware of that.
<<
I've had friends who've had to hide in
women's shelters because a husband or boyfriend is stalking them,
waiting for another chance to beat them up again.
>>
I've huddled in terror with my mother as a child while my father broke into the
house and procceded to burn her legs with cigarette butts.
<<
You haven't even rid yourself of male expectations that the
world revolves around you, and you expect to be accepted as a woman?
>>
I don't expect the world to revolve around me and never did.
<<
I don't accept you as living as a woman, nor do I know any who would.
>>
You don't really know me only my fears and insecurites because that's all I've
shown online. It has been my outlet for them.
<<
Have you done anything for anyone else,
like offering time or money to a women's shelter, or helping out other
women in any way you can?
>>
On a personal basis I have done things for women who were down on their luck
and have touched my life. Your assumptions are faulty.
<<
If you continue with this attitude, Karen, you'll find yourself to be
an old and bitter person with no friends.
>>
No TS friends at least. I don't show my fears and insecurites to them.
<<
The only one that needs to
change is you, and you don't seem to even realize that.
>>
I know soe things need changing but I have lost all believe that the things I
really can change can make enough difference. and becaue of it am deathy
afraid. That may not make semse but it's what I'm going through right now.
<<
Do something
for someone else today, purely out of kindness with no expectation in
return, and perhaps all this gloom and darkness will begin to lift.
>>
I have done so on many occasions in the past . Lately I've not as all my energy
has been consummed this sense of hoplesness and fear I feel. I'm bearly
getting through the day and my life has narrowed to home and work. If an
opportunity presents istself, I will.
-Karen
Nicole Hamilton
> you had heard about Julie Haugh before you met her when she realaxed at
> night with TS's. Thatwas when you thought she was exuded more masuline
> enregy then anyone on the newsgroup and was a guy to the core. Care to
> deny that?
Okay, I'll answer that, but only because you mention Julie's name. This
was a conversation that took place long, long before I'd met Julie and
before I even knew her well. I was struggling to understand some
combativeness I saw in her comments at the time. I don't recall
precisely, but I think this was probably late winter, a year ago. I
recounted some catty remarks told to me by someone who felt she'd just been
dissed by Julie but, as you say, I made clear at the time that I had no
personal knowledge if they were true. I certainly said nothing of my own
opinions that was not totally consistent with my views expressed on-line,
all of which are available for review on Deja News. As I got to know Julie
better, (she's a very bright and complex person) I grew to like her
immensely. I did finally meet Julie for the first time in Dallas this last
month and I can say from personal observation that she is stunningly
beautiful, engaging and thoroughly feminine woman who dresses and presents
impeccably.
> You ceratinly like to gossip about other people.
What can I say? Women do this. :) And my recollection is of you as a
willing and, oftentimes, enthusiastic participant in these conversations.
But I will disagree with the characterization you imply that any of my
remarks were ever said in a malicious manner or in any way as to imply a
reduced valuation of these people in my life. Beyond that, I won't comment
on the specifics simply because I see no reason to bring them into this.
But I suppose if there is a lesson for anyone to learn, it is that there is
no such thing as sharing a confidence with you. You obviously don't mind
that there may now be innocent bystanders worrying, gee, are people (even
if it's just Nicki and Karen) saying terrible things about me?
Well, if any of them are reading this and think they recognize themselves,
let me set their minds at ease: the answer is no. Karen is just being,
well, Karen. She's just being a jerk and she doesn't mind using you if it
suits her purpose. But no, no one (at least, not me) is saying terrible
things about anyone. But if you're still worried and want to know exactly
what, if anything, I said about you, send me email and I will tell you, to
the best of my recollection. If you like, I'll copy Karen on it so she
correct any "inaccuracies" she thinks she's found.
I don't say anything about anyone behind their backs I wouldn't be willing
to say to their faces.
Nicole Hamilton
> What is the purpose of this message, Nikki?
What is the purpose? Geez, Michelle, I should have imagined it was pretty
clear. This is a discussion and support group and I participate pretty
fully. I'm getting tired of having every friggin' thread hijacked into a
discussion of whether Karen does or does not pass and whether it's because
of poor HRT results. It annoyed the hell out of me to see her use Dawn's
comments as the latest jumping off point, especially considering all that
Dawn has had to go through. It was just unseemly.
But also, contrary to your implication that I'm doing this only to piss
Karen off or because I'm pissed off, I do honestly wish Karen would take my
comments to heart because I think if she did, she could improve her lot. I
appreciate that this does appear to be as pointless as trying to teach a
pig to sing, but I dunno, I just gotta try anyway. If I thought you life
was circling the bowl and you needed a good knock on the head to wake up,
I'd do the same for you, too. :)
Karen Elizabeth A.
>
> I don't see anything constructive that could possibly result from your
> message.
Actually it has. For my part, it ended any possibility of our making up
and having any sort of friendship. I was under the mistaken impression
that it might happen with a bit more tine. As far as I can see, it's all
for the best anyway.
Unfortunately, it has likely ended my participation in the support group
we were both in as she is one of the people who hosts it now. After that
post I doubt we could co-exist peacefully in the same room as we manged
to last Wednesday.
-Karen
Karen Elizabeth A.
> nd my recollection is of you as a
> willing and, oftentimes, enthusiastic participant in these conversations.
In Julies's case yes. After you mentioned the other pseron I agreed that
about her choice of clothing an sruprise at it but I did not make haver
thew fun you did in talking about it or initiated it as you did and you
set the tone. In the third case I had to explain to why a person in her
position would find things so difficult you had no clue. You have often
shown your insentivity to others who you percieve to be lacking in
"courage".
> But I will disagree with the characterization you imply that any of my
> remarks were ever said in a malicious manner or in any way as to imply a
> reduced valuation of these people in my life.
They were ceratinly made with an attitude of scorn and/or ridicule. you
are not the goodie-two shoes you make yourself out to be.
> I don't say anything about anyone behind their backs I wouldn't be willing
> to say to their faces.
Funny how, execpt for me, you don't seem to though.
-Karen
Karen Elizabeth A.
> But I suppose if there is a lesson for anyone to learn, it is that there is
> no such thing as sharing a confidence with you.
that.
> You obviously don't mind
> that there may now be innocent bystanders worrying, gee, are people (even
> if it's just Nicki and Karen) saying terrible things about me?
I had to let people have some insight into who you really are -
particularly as you seem to want to give them your skewd "insight" into
me.
> Well, if any of them are reading this and think they recognize themselves,
> let me set their minds at ease: the answer is no. Karen is just being,
> well, Karen. She's just being a jerk and she doesn't mind using you if it
> suits her purpose.
You were a jerk for posting that exaggerated and misleeading description
of me and call me liar and you damm well know you did in that post. My
diet is not opinion about how I look. The results are backed by
objective photographiv evidence of the weight loss that you have seem.
I'm still almost 110lbs below my weight before the diet.
> I don't say anything about anyone behind their backs I wouldn't be willing
> to say to their faces.
But somehow, except for when you are talking about me, I always here you
saying it behind their backs.
That's why I'm calling you on it.
-kAren
Nicole Hamilton
> ridicule. you are not the goodie-two shoes you make
> yourself out to be.
Karen, you're wrong. But if you want to be a jackass and state here
exactly what you believe I said and about whom, I'll respond. But as it
stands, these are empty broadsides. You make vague claims I said things in
scorn and ridicule; I say I didn't. Off-hand, I don't see your credibility
as all that strong right now.
Anyway, how is this is any of this you claim different than your own
behavior? In November, when you last got pissed off at me, you sent me a
long series of email messages recounting how "everyone" in our local
support group agrees I'm insensitive and boorish and whatever else you
could think up to insult me and you made a point of listing quite a number
specific complaints about me stated to you in private by specific
individuals. The difference is, I'm not talking about vague stuff that may
or may not have been said in some subjective tone of voice. I have your
messages right here on my disk. Shall I post some of that stuff here,
blotting out these other people's identifying information just so everyone
can get a clear idea of what's going on here?
Karen Elizabeth A.
> Karen, you're wrong. But if you want to be a jackass and state here
> exactly what you believe I said and about whom, I'll respond.
I can't without revealing particulars about people.
> scorn and ridicule; I say I didn't. Off-hand, I don't see your credibility
> as all that strong right now.
Because you have lied (orconviently fotgpt some facts) I have been
totally honest aboy both my feelings and the facts.
> Anyway, how is this is any of this you claim different than your own
> behavior? In November, when you last got pissed off at me, you sent me a
> long series of email messages recounting how "everyone" in our local
> support group agrees I'm insensitive and boorish and whatever else you
> could think up to insult me and you made a point of listing quite a number
> specific complaints about me stated to you in private by specific
> individuals.
Re-read them. I never said everybody. I'm not that close to everybody in
the group. As I stated, it was more then just one others. Again it was
to let you know that people don't see you as you see ypurself.
> The difference is, I'm not talking about vague stuff that may
> or may not have been said in some subjective tone of voice. I have your
> messages right here on my disk. Shall I post some of that stuff here,
> blotting out these other people's identifying information just so everyone
> can get a clear idea of what's going on here?
If you wish. I stand by everything I said. I could have been more
specific but felt it was not my place if they chose not to say anything
to your face. You HAVE been very insenitive (though not purposely so).
-Karen
Amber Thompson
-
> BUT that means 1 out of every 10 people reads me. It's impossible to build
> can't the life I want because of it.
Then don't keep trying. The thing we have been trying to tell you is;
It's how you feel about yourself that counts.
--
Amber Thompson
ICQ#5904742
http://homepages.together.net/~msfrost/tananda.html
(Please do not link to my site without permission.)
k...@world.std.com
Amber Thompson <msf...@together.net> wrote:
> k...@world.std.com wrote:
> -
> > BUT that means 1 out of every 10 people reads me. It's impossible to build
> > can't the life I want because of it.
>
> Then don't keep trying.
That's the problem. I can not accept that. I have tried and find that it's too
important to me and I can't find a path I believe can make it happen. That's
what scares the hell out of me.
> The thing we have been trying to tell you is;
> It's how you feel about yourself that counts.
While that's certainly important, it's not the whole story. If it was, why do
so many who can woodwork or do stealth choose to do so? We are social
creatures and how we are percieved by the society we inhabit does matter a
good deal and does affect the quality of life. What the decison to transition
boils down to is overall quality of life - and that is something that only
can be defined only by the individual and their inner needs.
I seacrhed by soul over years because I knew it would be difficult given my
physical makeup but in the end decide I had to try. When it became obvious
that things were not working I tried to convince myself I could live with
less or different results. Something in me rebelled and almost sent me over
the edge.
To me, physical passability is a prerequisite for things to be able to work.
When HRT did not give me much fat redistribution I looked for regamines that
would make it work and have gone to extreems in that area. In the last 2-3
months I've come to realize that it is now highly unlikely that any combo of
HRT will make a real differnce with over all fat redistribution.
With out that, no matter what else I do, I can never have the life I want. And
that to me is unacceptable. THAT is what I mean about running out of options.
All the other stuff can't get me all the way there and, for me, threr seems
little point to it without that possibility.
Maybe I'm totally screwed up (and many here think so), but I am not able to
accept that I can't get there and yet I see to way I can. That is causing me
my own personal hell. I freely admit it is of my own making for not being
able to accept the inevitable and move on. If I had been, I never would have
started down this path. The area that I can not get to work is the one that
taps into my deepest insecurities and is what stopped me from doing this a
decade earlier.
-Karen
k...@world.std.com
"Nicole Hamilton" <hami...@hamiltonlabs.com> wrote:
> Okay, I'll answer that,
In the name of honesty and fairness let's get something out on the table.
I'm pretty I sured you a picture of me when i was 360lbs if not then you were
not at group then. Assuming you have, can you admit that i HAVE lost a
tremenous amount weight from that picture. As it stands right nowm, Im at at
250lbs and have been at 220lbs since you've known me.
If you have not seen the pictures and I can arrange to have them shown to you
would you be honest enought to admit that I had lost over 100lbs and that is
ample evidence of the truth about my dieting in the past?
I am very proud of being able to lose all that weight and go from a waist of
about 60inches to the low-mid 40's. Right now I'm 30 lbs less then the weight
I was at when I graduated high school, and far below any pervios weight be
for that diet in my adult life.
If you have shread of decency, you will not slander and belttle what was, for
me, a HUGE accomplishment. You may feel I've not done enough but damm it, at
least acknowledge what i did do.
diane...@my-dejanews.com
k...@world.std.com wrote:
> That's the problem. I can not accept that. I have tried and find that it's too
> important to me and I can't find a path I believe can make it happen. That's
> what scares the hell out of me.
OK Great - so what do you want from us? Surely the negative feedback from the
majority of has must have convinced you that we're all a little tired after a
year of this nonsense) of hearing about it?
So what more do you want from us? Why continue this useless whining?
---------
Diane
diane...@my-dejanews.com
"Nicole Hamilton" <hami...@hamiltonlabs.com> wrote:
>This is a discussion and support group and I participate pretty
> fully. I'm getting tired of having every friggin' thread hijacked into a
> discussion of whether Karen does or does not pass and whether it's because
> of poor HRT results.
Very much seconded.
> I appreciate that this does appear to be as pointless as trying to teach a
> pig to sing, but I dunno, I just gotta try anyway.
getting people to try to help her is part of the passive-aggressive game
she's playing. She will deny such because she is in complete denial as to
the source of her problems (herself) and what she's doing about it which of
course is nothing more then p/a control games.
Consider the effect that I had when I agreed with everything that she said -
she got pissed off because I wasn't playing the game properly. She couldn't
get control by negating my siggestions because I wasn't giving her any. At
this point I believe that , like an alcoholic, the only one who can get her to
change her ways is herself. All I'd like is if she'd just stop playing her
stupid game and please just shut up and grow up.
Nicole Hamilton
> If you have shread of decency, you will not slander and belttle
> what was, for me, a HUGE accomplishment. You may feel I've
> not done enough but damm it, at least acknowledge what i did do.
Oh, okay, I see you've posted this also, so I'll just repeat what I said
privately:
It =is= a huge accomplishment. Unfortunately, it is not enough. I don't
know what doctor told you 180 would be unhealthy for you, but he's wrong
and you've just latched onto that as an excuse. You need to drop at least
70 pounds from where you are, to get you at least to 180, and you need to
start some regular exercise. Fat redistribution, body definition, whatever
you want to call it, is never, never going to come out of a needle for
anyone. You have to lose the weight and you have to train your body to put
what's left where you want it through exercise.
You might also consider whether something like may, I dunno, dance classes
or even a modeling school (yes! really! one friend tells me she really
did go to modeling school during transition and it helped a lot) would help
you modify your behavior, the way you move. There's just no delicacy at
all to your movement, how you walk, how you sit. Take that snapshot I took
of you last week when I was playing with my digital camera at group. I
hadn't even looked at it 'till last night but there you are, slouched back
on the couch, more as if you're lying there than sitting, sweater sort of
astray off one shoulder. You look like a mess, which is what you always
look like.
Once again, I don't hold myself up as some great example. I'm about as
casual as they get! Everyone knows I dress like my only charge account is
at Goodwill. But I'm not the one complaining that my life is so bad.
The only things I see you willing to do are the things you know you won't
have to do, e.g., because they're beyond your means, like Ousterhout. But
there are other things, like getting your weight down, getting some
exercise, smiling, practicing how you walk and how you sit and how you wear
your clothes, and just generally expressing more interest in other people
as something other than a jumping off point to how miserable you are that
would cost you nothing.
Btw, the issue on your clothing is you are going to have to learn to pick
clothes that have more shape to make up for the lack of that in your body.
Instead of soft pastel dresses and shapeless cardigan sweaters, you should
be looking at fabrics with more texture that'll take a pleat or crease.
You're going to look better in more serious clothing, e.g., grey wools and
stuff like that. A flimsy dress looks great on some 17-yo waif of a girl
but terrible on you.
WendyX
If the first anti-depressant you take doesn't help-try another til you
find one that does and maybe consider adding a mood stabilizer as well.
You said you came from an alcoholic home and the incidence of mood
disorders in families with alcoholism is common.
If your shape is such a problem to you:
a) wear a fredericks padded girdle
b) learn to dress to camouflage your shape
c) have a few ribs removed
d) risk your life and get your hips shot up with silicone (not a good
option)
e)if you rib cage is large-don't get overly large implants.
Looking good isn't the total answer to stealth and happiness. A nice
looking ts is even juicier gossip when someone blabs or out-right
figures it out--and it can set off homophobic responses from men who may
have found you attractive.
I find support groups are of no benefit to me and the last thing I
personally need is to hang out with plastic surgery junkies, because it
can make my insecurities get real outta hand.
Fix the unacceptable as best you can and find things in life that make
you feel good and don't participate in the beauty pageant if it makes
you miserable. HINT: GG's don't go out accessing percentages of times
they get read---someone counting must look like a lunatic and probably
does arouse suspicion. When people say rude comments --that I have some
feature like a man--I find that if I look them straight in the eye and
say something to them acknowledging that I'm a human being and not an
object---they treat me as such.
Nicole Hamilton
> ... the last thing I personally need is to hang out with
> plastic surgery junkies, because it can make my
> insecurities get real outta hand.
This is perhaps yet another follow-up to your anger at Schrang for wanting
to do SRS in two stages and at life in general because some are more
fortunate than others? Anyway, it's all relative, don't you think? In the
eyes of most of the world, don't you imagine we're =all= plastic surgery
junkies for what we do?
Nicole Hamilton
> Consider the effect that I had when I agreed with everything
> that she said - she got pissed off because I wasn't playing
> the game properly.
And you saw it was the same thing when I stepped "outside the script" to
point out, however politically incorrect, that she's fat because she eats
too much and doesn't always get seen as female because she acts like a guy
in drag. At that point, the response is to get nasty and want to shift the
discussion to all of my own real or imagined flaws.
My point is that Karen enjoys using the group very selfishly, fully
expecting it's her right to abuse it any she likes but that all the rest of
us will carefully shy away from the mentioning her weight and appearance,
things you normally would never say anything about out of politeness and
social convention.
Well, too bad. This is a support group, not a ladies' tea social, meaning
you're supposed to get better here and you're expected to be able care
enough about doing that that you'll do some of your own heavy lifting.
It's not just some place to go moan and whine but not do a little work.