To Saphyre Gazelles from Poppy (Cat)
saphyre gazelles
cos this is gettin reeli reeli long...
>Its me Poppy (Cat), I started this by asking all the
>questions. I'm really happy you caught up and answered
>all of these questions!!!
hihi poppy cat :)
>
>I asked these questions because my counsellor said I
>wasn't many, just one. I had a hard time accepting it.
>I read all of the previous answers and had a long talk
>with Anne (my counsellor). I realized I probably wasn't
>many afterall.
oooooooh
now *this* pisses us off!
who thte h*ll is she to tell you
what goes on inside your head?
the role of the counselor
IOnsHO
is to help *you* figure out
what goes on inside of your own head
you sure have a better perspective on it
than she does!
sounds to us
like you were doing just fine
until you threatened your counselor's world view
with your truth
and she decided to try to convince you otherwise
oooooooh ppl like this *p*ss me off*!
*growl*
like we dont have enough trouble
as it is
figuing out what goes on inside our head
without some *idiots* trying to change our mind
becuase they cant handle the truth!
(gazelles step off their soapbox)
(btw
we never had a bad experience with this
our therapist is awesome
but we know *way* too many ppl who have)
>Its very confusing though because in a lot of ways we are
>a lot alike. ...but you are many and I am just one with
>a very predominant inner child.
the verdict aint in on that yet ;)
>I just turned the big <gasp> 4 - 0 in August. I
>definitely do not act or react or feel like any 40
>year olds that I know.
mmm hmmm
<grin>
(whispering - maybe littles? in your ear :) )
>"getting small" outwardly - yes I do that too and have
>been doing it a lot the last few years (not really sure
>how long).
one of the signs of multiplicity...
try part 3 of the FAQ
>>and we'd been trying to drown out
>>the background noise
>>for a while as well
>I don't get any background noise. I hear a voice but it is
>just me thinking or my inner child being silly or sad.
didja know that singular ppl dont hear voices?
we allus thought that the voices
was just us thinkin
(well, just me thinkin cos i was singular, rite? :) )
but singular ppl dont hear voices
or so they tells us...
>I get headaches but they hurt. :( Have a big
>one now. I sometimes get migraines that don't
>hurt - I just can't see very well when I get them
>(I forget waht they are called - sort of "visual"
>migraines).
yah
the "mp headache" as we call it
does hurt
those visual migraines
sounds like what we gets sometimes too
like you cant quite focus
or sometimes stuff looks double
or a bit fuzzy?
is we thinks when more than one person
tryin ta see
at same time
(we doin it now <sigh>)
>>after we killed those misconceptions
>>we started recognizing different ppl
>>(groups of perceptions, opinions,
>>attitudes, abilities, and sometimes memories
>>that travel together)
>I have different perceptions, opinions,
>attitudes and abilities too. I guess its
>different when I am in different moods or
>something. this is where it gets very
>confusing.
>
>I can find something hysterically funny one
>day, and be outrageously offended the next.
>I can get really wound up about something and
>the next thing I know I just don't give a damn.
>Jeesh ... I'm trying to find examples, its hard.
>I guess the best one right now would be my posting
>on various groups - asar, asd, alt. adoption, alt.
>tv.x-files, arc etc. - it is sometimes as if there
>are different people posting. Sometimes if I go
>back and read something, somewhere I think - whoooaa,
>what the hell was going on when I wrote that! Weird.
>It's almost as if the wrong "person" posts to a group
>that they usually don't post on sometimes. Does this
>make sense???
sure makes sense
is different ppl
wethinks you got it all figured out
cept you gots that *stoooopid* therpist
<sigh>
only *you* know what goes on inside your head
(and sometimes you dont either!)
but you sure got better perspective
than we do
or than your therpist does
what do you think?
>This makes sense to me bbecause I have
>nicknames that I feel differently about
>and of course my own name. I have changed
>by nickname at various times in my life.
>But the nicks all come from the birth name,
>except Poppy, which comes from my garden!
not just you feel different about
but when somebody calls you by them
do you suddenly "feel differently"?
or
alternatively
when you "feel differently"
do you seem to identify with different nicknames
(i.e., i feel this way
and "Cat" sounds "right" to me
and now i feel *this* way
and "Poppy" sounds "right" to me)
?
>
>>um
>>to our knowledge
>>we havent got a host
>>(altho there's a few ppl
>>who would be hard to convince
>>that we are mp
>>let alone that they arent in charge
>>which, of course, they aren't
>>for most of the time)
>
>Ya, I have been thinking about this since I read
>your answers here and I can understand problems
>with identifying the "host". If I had to figure
>out who the host was here (or birth person) I
>really don't think I could. But then again I am
>supposed to be singular. Right!
yeah, right!
(NOT!)
<grin>
>
>>but certain alters only come out
>>for certain situations
>>when triggered, or needed
>>or whatever
>
>Yes, certain "aspects of my personality" (as my
>counsellor calls them)
:P~~~~~ on your counselor!
>come out when triggered, or
>needed. Now, where her theory seems to fall through
>is the one "aspect" that I wish would be out more can
>only come out when I am very, very safe and seems to
>disappear in the blink of an eye usually. This is
>the Nurturer. If this was just an "aspect of personality"
>wouldn't I have more control over it?
>
>Oh ya and another one - the one who is very s*xual (sorry
>for splatting but not sure if ok with you - hope so) seems
>to have disappeared. (egads!) For a long time I thought
>this one was an absolute fool and almost a traitor - maybe
>she just died off or maybe she is just hiding and sulking
>and waiting to pounce when I least expect it!
<snip>
>The only really distinctively different voice is
>the one that comes out when I am outrageously angry.
>I almost scare myself! No littles voices. :(
>Sometimes talk in a boring monotone - not so much
>anymore. sometimes quite animated and giggly and
>happy. But the growling angry loud voice (The Rager?)
>is definitely the most obviously different - although
>sometimes that voice can even be different very much
>from the gut and almost more like an animal that a
>person. Very hard to explain. This difference could
>be because the angry ones would be the Rager - who I
>think tries to protect me when I feel threatened or
>triggered so she get angry and strikes out. And then
>there is a very self-destructive one. But then that
>doesn't make sense - the self-destructive one strikes
>out against me, not other people. Maybe the Rager just
>gets too overwhelmed and then sounds different. I don't
>know!?!?!
um
that would be voices
(and people!)
lessee...
(counting)
you gots Poppy, Cat, prolly a Catroine
Nurturer, Rager, somebody self-destructive
the s*xual one, and some littles...
sounds like a good bunch ta us :)
<snip>
>Our writing does change. Not dramatically but enough
>to make me rip up the page and start all over again until
>it all looks the same. I don't like writing my hand for
>this reason. I much prefer writing on the computer or with
>my typewriter (if only I could find more ribbons!)
>
>I just noticed what I did - OUR writing... hmmmmm!
lesee
feeling "little"
different handwriting
doing things "out of character"
referring to self in plural
referring to self in third person...
<grin>
>
>>on a similar vein
>>we have been told we look very different
>>i know we *move* differently
>>but facially i believe we look different too
>
>Yes, sometimes when I go by a mirror I get a glimpse
>of myself it is sometimes a bit of a shock - sort of
>a non-recognition. I do not look like what I feel
>like. I find I sometimes avoid mirrors. I move
>differently at times too. I don't know if other people
>notice though.
this looking in the mirror thing
can also be
that the person who is "out"
has a self-image
that doesnt match what they see in the mirror
we get this lots
<snip>
>Ya, funny enough the only time I panic is when
>other people want me to be someone else. Can't
>do it. But I can be different ppl myself. Does
>that make sense?
yup :)
>>we had an identity crisis in high school
>>we never solved it
>>we just gave up
>>just realized recently
>>that some ppl actually *figure out who they are*
>>when they have an identity crisis
>>*concept* <grin>
>
>Sometimes it seems like my whole life has been
>one long identity crisis! <grin>
amen!
there's nothing as frustrating
as trying to form *one* identity
when you're lots of diverse people!
>>
>>studying singular ppl
>>has helped us to understand what things we can watch
>>because they are distinctly *not* singular
>>and may be keys...
>
>Could you explain this to me?
um
lessee...
one of the most *surprising* things we learned
is that singular ppl
can only think of *one* thing at a time!
how limiting!
like, we can be working on something at work
and then somebody else is deciding what to wear tonight
and somebody else is contemplating the weird hairdo on a coworker
and somebody else is thinking what an *ss my boss is
and somebody else is thinking about the job we just applied for..
we're not always aware of *all* of these at once
but usually we can "hear" two or three of them floating around
or at least touch base with them...
didja know
singular ppl cant do this?
weird...
we just dont *get* singular ppl :P
another example
we have ppl in here
who are pretty empathic...
do you?
if you do
try to "read" somebody
who you are positive is singular
you get something pretty constant from them
emotion-wise
then try to "read" a multiple
chaos!
<grin>
what else?
hmmmm....
dunno, we'll prolly think of more later
>I don't think I can talk to my counsellor about
>this anymore. We talked a little bit about it
>yesterday and it was almost like she was saying -
>So have you finally given up on that foolishness?
>She didn't actually say that but she might as well
>have. I am kind of disappointed in her. The last
>time we talked about it before that (and the reason
>for all of these questions) she almost got angry
>at me because I kept trying to get her to explain
>why I wasn't multiple. she was certainly losing
>her patience. she did say I could go to see the
>specialist (?) on MP in our country (Canada) who
>happens to work in our local hospital, if I was
>still very confused - I said no. If Anne (my
>counsellor) can get this weird over this, I really
>don't think I want to go talk to anyone else Thank
>you very much! I think I will just stick with my
>friends at asar and asd! (besides they know a hell
>of a lot more about it than the so called professionals!)
the last thing you need
is more invalidation!
(gazelles whisper "ditch the counselor!")
do you know any multiples in your area
that have had a *positive* experience with somebody?
that might be somewhere to start...
>Anyway I guess I am still a bit confused! Hope to
>hear from you soon!!! You've been a big help Saphyre
>Gazelles, Thank You! :) :)
you welcome :)
our pleasure :)
hope you havin a good day poppy cat :)
the sapphire gazelles
***** @}-'-,-- >< --`-,-{@ *****
* *
`_ If you follow the pack, the view never changes.
`___/ If you follow the river, in time, all the
// \\ splendor of the world will come to you.
* *
****** the sapphire gazelles *** an10...@anon.penet.fi ******
"MPD, I am now convinced, is nothing more than when your
states of mind have names. Well, and their own opinions."
- Jilara the Exile
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Evelyn Gordon
On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, saphyre gazelles wrote:
> we do <snip> lots fer space
> cos this is gettin reeli reeli long...
and i'm going to [snip] even more, 'cause it's not only super-long, but
i'm only responding to a small portion of it.
> >Its me Poppy (Cat), I started this by asking all the
> >questions. I'm really happy you caught up and answered
> >all of these questions!!!
Poppy (Cat), i'm really happy you asked all your questions because it led
to lots and lots and lots of responses (including this thread) that
i found very helpful and insightful. THANK YOU!!!
please consider this a spoiler in the "i am not a survivor nor a
trained professional nor am i multiple so i may unwittingly say something
inappropriate" vein. maybe a little bit of a content spoiler too, since
i disagree with some things the saphyre gazelles wrote (but NOT flaming,
just would like to discuss).
i'm a little worried that i'm butting into your conversation and that
some of what the gazelles wrote may not have been intended as general
truisms. if so, please forgive me.
saphyre gazelles wrote, responding to Poppy (Cat)'s therapist's
insinuation that Poppy (Cat) should give up this foolishness (grrrf,
stoopid thera-pits):
> oooooooh
> now *this* pisses us off!
> who thte h*ll is she to tell you
> what goes on inside your head?
i agree. isn't nobody who can know what goes on in another person's
head (except for another person in the same head, maybe, i don't
know). so with that in mind ...
i am singular. (or, i guess, possibly having incredibly effective
denial of being multiple.) i read this post the saphyre gazelles
wrote, in which several things were said about what doesn't go in on
the head of a singular person, and i disagree.
Poppy > >I don't get any background noise. I hear a voice but it is
Poppy > >just me thinking or my inner child being silly or sad.
>
> didja know that singular ppl dont hear voices?
> we allus thought that the voices
> was just us thinkin
> (well, just me thinkin cos i was singular, rite? :) )
> but singular ppl dont hear voices
> or so they tells us...
i sometimes have what i would call "background noise." thoughts flying
around in my head that are not my main focus at the moment. thinking
about how to make something on the computer work but in the background
can't stop thinking about a problem with a friend. and i definitely have
conversations with myself, for instance when i know something is bad for
me but i want to do it 'cause it's fun and i argue with myself about
whether to do it or not. things are not always as clear as yes or
no and i can have three- or four- way discussions sometimes. and all
those opinions are mine. like you say, just me thinking.
> >>studying singular ppl
> >>has helped us to understand what things we can watch
> >>because they are distinctly *not* singular
> >>and may be keys...
> >
> >Could you explain this to me?
>
> um
> lessee...
>
> one of the most *surprising* things we learned
> is that singular ppl
> can only think of *one* thing at a time!
> how limiting!
> like, we can be working on something at work
> and then somebody else is deciding what to wear tonight
> and somebody else is contemplating the weird hairdo on a coworker
> and somebody else is thinking what an *ss my boss is
> and somebody else is thinking about the job we just applied for..
>
> we're not always aware of *all* of these at once
> but usually we can "hear" two or three of them floating around
> or at least touch base with them...
>
> didja know
> singular ppl cant do this?
again, I think this isn't always true. though i'm never 100% sure
whether i'm really thinking several things at one time or just kind of
switching between the different thoughts so quickly that they seem
simultaneous, like a bunch of tasks sharing CPU time on a computer. but
i can read a magazine article while i play guitar and sing (only works
for songs i know really well or even better for just guitar, no words),
which seems pretty simultaneous-use to me. i don't always have layers
of thoughts going on, but lots of the time i do, like answering a
question but not stopping typing just now... ;) i'm very fond of the
fashion-policing train of thought too - not just haircuts, but also why
on earth would someone wear clothes so unflattering, or what's with the
make-up? :)
i'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you mean, but what about when
i'm driving and talking to a friend and drinking a cup of coffee? or
talking on the phone as i'm getting dinner ready? people do things like
that all the time.
as i wrote this i was thinking about the possibility that i am, in fact,
multiple and in denial. for some reason i keep thinking that's going to
be your response and i feel defensive about it (probably more to do with
me than you, saphyre gazelles). it's possible; after all, if i was in
denial about being multiple i wouldn't know it, since that's the point of
denial. but i don't think it's as simple as "here are some things that
singular people just don't do" any more than people who try and lable
people NOT mp because "here is a list and if you don't lose time you must
not be mp."
maybe it's not as simple as either singular or plural, which might
explain the differences between my experience and the saphyre gazelles'
study of singular people. maybe this is another of those continuum
things and i'm not on the extreme singular end but somewhere in between.
i'm not really sure what my point is, except that i felt the gazelles
said things that applied to me as a singular person but were not
accurate descriptions of how my mind works.
by the way, could someone please let me know if my line lengths are too
long? this turns out fine on my newsreader, but i've noticed that many
other people have slightly shorter line lengths and just want to be sure.
saphyre gazelles
responding to evelyn:
ok
now these are just our opinions :)
IOO
singularity/multiplicity is a spectrum
not a line drawn in the sand
and when we "study"
(more like "question" actually :) )
singular ppl
we try to talk to very singular ppl
those on the faaaar other end of the spectrum
cos lots of ppl fall inbetween
but the best "controls"
so to speak
are those on both ends
good way to tell what is singular behavior
and what is multiple behavior
and then those of us in the middle
presumably
will have a mix of both characteristics...
just to touch back to one example:
my therapist
(who is incredibly singular)
states that she can only think
of one thing at a time
(admittedly
a sample size of one
is not particularly scientific :) )
and that if she has more things than that
floating around in her head
she is switching between thoughts
and tends to get tangled up in them
also
lots and lots of ppl
can do things like drive home
and not remember the trip at all
or talk on the phone and cook
at the same time :)
the current explanation for this
is that with tasks with which
you are very familiar
your subconscious takes over
nevertheless
this is considered dissociation
(most "normal" ppl supposedly dissociate
whatever "normal" is)
when you say you can play guitar
and read a magazine
at the same time, tho
i start to wonder :)
basically
i think
what it all comes down to
is that the whole thing is a spectrum
and we all fall somewhere on it
and it's just a matter of where we are
and where we chose to draw that line
that says MP
and really, that's personal choice
a couple questions, tho
i notice that you are (obviously) reading asd
and also that you have a twwells address
you say you're not a survivor
and not mp?
are you dissociative?
why do you read these groups?
some ppl believe
that anybody who's suffered trauma
especially at a young age
dissociates to one extent or another...
just a bit to get your mind working :)
the sapphire gazelles
oh
btw
we're not on a quest to convert ppl
we only converse with ppl
the way we did with poppy cat
when we're pretty d*mned sure they're multiple
and when then mind was changed
not by inside forces
but by outside forces
there aint no draggin
the unwillin
outta denial
Evelyn Gordon
[snips galore - picture e-confetti falling around this post]
> ok
> now these are just our opinions :)
>
> IOO
> singularity/multiplicity is a spectrum
> not a line drawn in the sand
I suspect this is true. On the dissociation "ladder" I don't always have
my feet on the ground (as if anyone could possibly) and I sometimes manage
to climb high enough that looking down is scary. It seems unlikely to me
that I would be on the extremely singular end of multiplicity.
> and when we "study"
> (more like "question" actually :) )
> singular ppl
> we try to talk to very singular ppl
> those on the faaaar other end of the spectrum
Hmmmm. Maybe like a good friend of mine who can't be in the middle of
reading more than one book at a time because she would get "mental
indigestion"? What did she do when she was in college?
> also
> lots and lots of ppl
> can do things like drive home
> and not remember the trip at all
> or talk on the phone and cook
> at the same time :)
> the current explanation for this
> is that with tasks with which
> you are very familiar
> your subconscious takes over
see, this is where i have problems. (yes, i know, i got tired of using
caps. my syntax switches quite a bit from post to post or within posts,
too. and sometimes i like to do short lines like you usually use. :) )
just because it's been labelled the "subconscious," does that mean there
isn't thinking going on? maybe it's a slightly different kind of
thinking, but some part of the brain is thinking about stirring up the
onions before they burn while another part is keeping track of where to
say "hey, that's great," or "mm-hm, you're right, that's just awful."
my problems aren't with what you're saying, but that someone or some
group of someones (the infamous "they" appear on the horizon) has decided
that thinking about more than one thing at the same time to that degree
is "normal" but being aware of thinking more than one thing at the same
time is "abnormal." i'm not really sure where "they" would draw the
line, but the fact that people think there is a line to be drawn disturbs
me. people are more complex than that (the interesting ones, at least).
> when you say you can play guitar
> and read a magazine
> at the same time, tho
> i start to wonder :)
based on what does and doesn't work when i try this, i'd say the guitar
part has to be close to subconscious or i don't get very far in the
reading. well, the singing part has to be close to subconscious at
least, the guitar playing can be more complex - just as long as i'm not
overtaxing my verbal processing.
> a couple questions, tho
> i notice that you are (obviously) reading asd
how'd you guess? ;)
> and also that you have a twwells address
penet too, so if you'd like to discuss this or anything else in e-mail
let me know and i'll dig up the appropriate number.
> you say you're not a survivor
well, this is maybe not 100% accurate. (did i make that wishy-washy
enough?)
actually, though i did write that, i think it was in a quote which was
misleading (not deliberately). i just meant that i feel like i
personally needed spoilering because i felt like an outsider, and was
alluding to someone on asar who spoilers hirself.
you'll no doubt note that i have NOT managed to come right out and say
that i am a survivor. i will, however, freely admit to having been in a
horrendous and emotionally abusive (with an occasional SA episode thrown
in for good measure) relationship not entirely of my choosing at the
outset which lasted for over eight years and began when i was fourteen
which is clearly too young to be able to make an informed, adult decision
(at least in my case, maybe others who are reading had the necessary
maturity, not just the appearance of mental and physical maturity).
> and not mp?
> are you dissociative?
probably not beyond the "normal" range, though i've never had anyone
evaluate me. i definitely dissociate less than i did in the past, it's
possible that i would have been considered outside the normal range a few
years ago.
> why do you read these groups?
well, started reading asar because i met and became very close to a
survivor who is dissociative and mp; i wanted to get a better
understanding of what that meant. continued reading because my
friendship with said survivor, let's call hir Z for convenience, along
with reading asar made me face some of the leftover stuff from my past.
and because i made some friends there through e-mail and lots more who
felt like friends even though i never contacted them directly.
(including, by the way, some sapphire gazelles.) i also read
alt.support.abuse-partners, and once it was created i started reading
this group. the distinction between reading for the sake of Z and
reading for myself has long since become blurred, there are elements of
each.
> just a bit to get your mind working :)
> the sapphire gazelles
oh yeah, that's another one of the reasons i read, thanks for reminding
me! :) seriously, like i said above, i'm pretty obviously not at the
extreme non-dissociative, singular end of the scale. i do think about
it, and try to figure out whether the degree to which i still dissociate
is something that helps or hinders me. most days i don't think it
hinders me. once in a while, when the world seems to be ganging up on me
and everything goes wrong at once, i end up a little further away from the
world than i'd prefer. other times it seems like a good way to cope with
situations that make me uncomfortable, so i can get through them and then
figure out what the problem was and try to deal with it.
(does that first sentence sound mean? should i edit it out? it's so
annoying not to have inflection in e-mail sometimes...)
> oh
> btw
> we're not on a quest to convert ppl
> we only converse with ppl
> the way we did with poppy cat
> when we're pretty d*mned sure they're multiple
> and when then mind was changed
> not by inside forces
> but by outside forces
If I seemed to be accusing you of trying to convert then I apologize for
clumsy writing. I know you are not on a quest to convert people and I
read your responses to Poppy (Cat) as reassurance that Poppy (Cat) DOES
know what's going on and it's the therapist who's clueless. As responses
to Poppy (Cat) I thought your posts were right on the mark.
> there aint no draggin
> the unwillin
> outta denial
Thank you for the reassurance. Now I can sleep at night again. ;)
> "MPD, I am now convinced, is nothing more than when your
> states of mind have names. Well, and their own opinions."
>
> - Jilara the Exile
i don't _think_ i have any other names. and the opinions, contradictory
though they may be, all feel like mine.
well, this post has gone on long enough and then some. and i should
probably get out to the bus stop. no time to edit.
thanks for replying and clarifying. i was feeling a bit defensive last
week - fun playing in the snow and going to see live music has improved
my mood enormously.
take care,
ev.