OT: On growing up Jewish, and images of the concentration camps (LONG)
Salome
school at the temple every Saturday. My parents weren't especially
religious, but were strongly into the social and cultural sides of Judaism,
so I had to go to "Saturday school" until I was around 12 or 13. After that,
I told my parents I refused to go any more, and IIRC they didn't put too
much of a fuss about it. But by then, I had been very thoroughly immersed in
a particular way of seeing things.
I never believed in any of the religious stuff, was never interested in it,
and never practiced it for a second once I was old enough to have a say in
the matter. Organized religion of any stripe gives me the crawls. And yet, I
am deeply, permanently a Jew. There is no escaping that identity: it feels
like part of my genetic code. Why? Because this is what I was taught. "You
are a Jew. The rest of the world will instantly recognize you as a Jew, no
matter where you go. You are a member of a hated group of people. At any
time, in any place, Jews could be slaughtered again. There could be pogroms,
there could be extermination camps. They will be coming for *you*."
The adults of my parents' and grandparents' generations shared this grim
paranoia and utter conviction -- not only that it could happen again, any
time, any place, but that we would be instantly recognized as part of the
despised group. Because it was part of our nature to be despised, there
somehow came a corollary that we must in some way be despicable. This sense
of being an outsider who could never really feel safe (because no one would
come to a Jew's -- to my -- defense) was strengthened by the fact that I
grew up in neighborhoods and went to schools where I was the only Jew for
miles around.
I don't remember a whole lot about "Saturday school," but I do vividly
remember being shown footage of the concentration camps when I was maybe
eight, nine, ten years old. They showed us this stuff every year.
Black-and-white footage of the bulldozers pushing bodies into pits; piles of
corpses; piles of shoes and glasses; walking skeletons. I don't know whether
this was British or American or even German footage, but it made a lasting
impression. We weren't given much context -- nothing about the history of
the Reich or the war -- just the gas chambers and the ovens. And the
constant reminder, "This is your heritage. This could happen to you."
So. DH and I recently watched "Conspiracy," the HBO movie about the Wannsee
Conference, where Nazi leaders met to plan the Final Solution. It's a
brilliant film; the writing and acting are top-notch. I didn't know anything
about this stuff. (DH, who's read tons of stuff about WWII, is well versed
in it.) Then I saw part of an episode of "Band of Brothers" (which we
haven't been watching), where the American soldiers discover a camp full of
Jews and other "political prisoners." Oh man, there were those images
again -- the emaciated corpses, the pits, the tattooed numbers, the people
packed into wooden barracks, the walking skeletons.
DH started telling me about his visit to the site of the Belsen camp in the
late 70s, when he was stationed (British Army) in Germany. He described the
place in detail, and showed me some photos on the web of the way the place
looks now. He found it chilling, but fascinating. DH isn't Jewish. The lucky
man grew up in a rational, atheist family, and his interest in WWII and the
Holocaust is free of any emotional associations. He'd like to visit more of
the camps. I realized that I don't want to visit any of those places, ever.
The horror that was instilled in my childhood is still with me, and it's
strong. Stronger than I ever realized until DH and I were talking. I hadn't
even *thought* about that stuff in years. As we talked, that sense of *being
a Jew* washed over me, and some of the fear that was taught me, too. I felt
haunted.
I wonder, has anyone else here ever experienced feelings like this?
I've been thinking about doing some reading on the liberation of the camps,
since I don't know anything about those events. (If they talked about it in
"Saturday school," it was only as a brief lead-in to the formation of
Israel, and to lessons about how important Israel was and how we must always
support her.)
I'd appreciate any book recommendations people have. But I'm also wary.
These feelings that have been coming up -- they're not rational, they're not
pleasant, and I don't know if I can read about anything related to the
Holocaust with a clear mind, without getting overwhelmed. Has anybody else
dealt with *that*?
It's really disturbing to have these images in my head and not know where
they came from. DH says that the footage with bulldozers was probably
British, since the Brits had to use bulldozers to clear away the corpses.
But beyond that, I have no clue. I wonder if there is any way to find out,
and somehow demystify this very old horror in the back of my mind.
Salome
BookWyrm
>are a Jew. The rest of the world will instantly recognize you as a Jew, no
>matter where you go.
FWIW, *I* can't tell what religion someone is just by looking.
>I wonder, has anyone else here ever experienced feelings like this?
Nope. I was raised Catholic. Until sometime in middle school* I didn't even
realize that a Catholic being elected president (JFK, iirc) was an unusual
thing or that Catholics were a minority.
(No, I'm not Catholic anymore, but I haven't bothered getting myself
excommunicated so they still think I am.)
*6th to 8th grade. approximately age 11-13. It might have been a little before
that, but not much.
JesterKat
<gar...@moria.zut> wrote:
>I grew up in a Jewish family, and from an early age was taken to religious
>school at the temple every Saturday. My parents weren't especially
>religious, but were strongly into the social and cultural sides of Judaism,
>so I had to go to "Saturday school" until I was around 12 or 13. After that,
>I told my parents I refused to go any more, and IIRC they didn't put too
>much of a fuss about it. But by then, I had been very thoroughly immersed in
>a particular way of seeing things.
>
>snip<
Salome, I just want to say that I'm appalled that your parents
instilled such fears in you. Perhaps they thought it was
necessary--I'm not sure of your age, so I don't know how recent WW2
would have been--but showing concentration camp footage to an
8-year-old, *especially* without any kind of context given, is
inexcusable.
I've also seen "Conspiracy"--I found it brilliant and terrifying. The
two things that bothered me the most were, first, that that meeting
happened in 1942, only a little over sixty years ago. That's not
*nearly* long enough ago for shit like this to have been going on. It
would be much easier to cope with if it was six hundred years, because
then people could tell themselves that some progress had been made.
The second thing that disturbed me was simply this: those men weren't
insane. Doctors, lawyers, military men, bureaucrats--they weren't
raving lunatics, out of control. They were, some of them, highly
intelligent, educated men, who thought they were doing the right
thing. A chilling film.
---JesterKat
***************
"Drop me off in Groovetime
Soothe me with the Slang of Ages
This is where I turn..."
---Steely Dan
Stephen J. Rush
Hence the -unfortunately unpopular- prayer: "God protect us from
people who are _certain_ that they are doing the Right Thing."
tom
wrote:
>Stephen J. Rush <stev...@att.net> wrote in
><11iniv0efr6nas8jd...@4ax.com>:
>OTOH, aren't we here _certain_ that we are doing the Right Thing by not
>having children?
OTOOH, not having children doesn't affect anyone else, nor do we try
to impose our viewpoint on other people. And I think it's fair to say
that we who are childfree are doing the right thing for *ourselves*,
not for other people, or even the "greater good".
>When someone does something wrong because s/he thinks it's right the
>problem is his/her doing something wrong, not his/her thinking s/he's
>right.
Actually, I think it's both. If the person is convinced s/he is right,
then s/he will continue trying to do whatever that thing may be.
Tom
elizabeth
snip
> Salome, I just want to say that I'm appalled that your parents
> instilled such fears in you.
Hell, I grew up with Nuclear War nightmares. I grew up in the Cold
War, and to be sure, we were probably safer then ... . now, the nukes
the Reds had are in who knows whose control? Scary!
As for religion instilling wierdness, a Jesuit I know mentioned when
he was a little boy in sunday school, he was told that when you sin,
YOU PUT ANOTHER NAIL IN JESUS. Can you imagine? No wonder catlick
kids get fucked up.
> I've also seen "Conspiracy"--I found it brilliant and terrifying. The
> two things that bothered me the most were, first, that that meeting
> happened in 1942, only a little over sixty years ago. That's not
> *nearly* long enough ago for shit like this to have been going on. It
> would be much easier to cope with if it was six hundred years, because
> then people could tell themselves that some progress had been made.
And that is *exactly* what is going on right now in our country.
Supposedly SF is liberal. Yet, we insist that homeless people (adults
only, if you are a breeder, they will give you housing, jobs,
healthcare, etc) get jobs, even though we can't provide jobs for all,
find housing and get out of the shelters .. . even though the shelters
only came into existance during DiFi's second term. her
'manhattanization' of sf caused housing prices to go sky high,
eliminated most of the jobs, got rid of all corporate HQs and
artistes! And if you ask Gavin Newsome, he will insist that
eliminating GA will somehow get rid of the homeless . .. .without even
trying to figure out what got us here. Interesting to note that
Hitler first killed off the homeless single adults who were
unemployable due to the economic meltdown.
And it was for the same reason that Newsom et al want to kill the
poor--to make life safer for WOMEN&CHILDREN. W&C shouldn't have to
see homelessness!
> The second thing that disturbed me was simply this: those men weren't
> insane. Doctors, lawyers, military men, bureaucrats--they weren't
> raving lunatics, out of control. They were, some of them, highly
> intelligent, educated men, who thought they were doing the right
> thing. A chilling film.
Well, get ready for the next chapter. The USA will make the Nazis
look like Campfire Girls.
circusgirl
I was just thinking about all this stuff today (no I'm not Jewish). A
bunch of us were discussing "The Pianist" last night. The thing that
film brought home to me was the nasty, slow insidious way Jews in
Europe had their rights taken away from them little by little and
NOBODY did a damn thing. There were plenty of opportunities for people
in the occupied countries to protest this crap, and they didn't. They
just didn't care.
There have been numerous times in European history when a given
population as persecuted for eithnic or religious reasons by those who
they thought were their friends. I'm reminded of the stuff I read
about the Balkans, where Serb teachers pointed out Croat children so
soldiers could take them away and shoot them when they came into the
school. Or the massacres in Rwanda about 10 years ago.
The feeling of knowing that people you thought were your friends, or
at least got on tolerably well with, actually hate and despise you
with a deep and abiding hatred is just a really really nasty one (I
had a small scale version of this happen to me in university where a
bunch of people I thought were my friends started bombarding me with
hate mail over a holiday weekend. The mail was sent to a local usenet
group and I was appalled at the number of people who hated my guts.
Goodness knows what could've happened in a totalitarian and/or war
state. My relationships with other people were never the same again, I
always have an abiding mistrust of anyone I'm not SURE of).
MY mother in law is Palestinian, and she hates the Iaraelis. I mean,
hates them. I don't debate the subject with her, however, although I
don't for one second condone the crap SHaron is pulling at the moment
I think I can understand why Israelis feel backed into a corner and
why feel this kind of shit is necessary - the arab nations are not at
all blameless when it comes to making the Iaraelis feel paranoid,
unaccepted and hated. If I thought there was a bunch of people massed
around my home waiting for me to step outside so they could kill me, I
wouldn't feel too bad about spraying them with gunfire either....
Anyway, I really don't want to start a middle east discussion-type
flamewar here.
Just my thoughts....
circusgirl
Kent
> The second thing that disturbed me was simply this: those men weren't
> insane. Doctors, lawyers, military men, bureaucrats--they weren't
> raving lunatics, out of control. They were, some of them, highly
> intelligent, educated men, who thought they were doing the right
> thing.
You're describing the U. S. Congress. Oh, wait a minute...
Kent
Kent
> I was just thinking about all this stuff today (no I'm not Jewish). A
> bunch of us were discussing "The Pianist" last night. The thing that
> film brought home to me was the nasty, slow insidious way Jews in
> Europe had their rights taken away from them little by little and
> NOBODY did a damn thing. There were plenty of opportunities for people
> in the occupied countries to protest this crap, and they didn't. They
> just didn't care.
cf. The "Patriot Act"
cf. "We have to ban ____ for the Chilllldrunnn!"
cf. Dept of Homeland Security...
Kent
Jacqueline Rochelle
news:HOicnfSkQdw...@giganews.com...
<< wonderful post snipped>>
Salome,
My experiences are *identical* to yours. Additionally, my grandparents
escaped the camps and fled to Australia. Their parents and siblings were
not so lucky. I grew up with the Holocaust being an unspoken tragedy that
was every bit a part of my family as any wedding or other event. Their
paranoia was very real and omnipresent. To this day, I still wear a Star of
David around my neck. Not because I practice my religion - I do not.
Indeed I married a non-Jew of German descent. I wear it because I am proud
to be Jewish and to show respect for my ancestors who were not allowed to be
proud of their heritage and culture.
I cannot watch footage of the camps. When I was little, I used to have
nightmares about the 'spaghetti people' [emaciated skeletons] I saw. I
sometimes wondered if any of those people I am watching were my relatives
and that disturbed me also. It is horrifying stuff of the highest order.
In short, your feelings match mine. I do not know how to deal with it. I
know that I am proud to be Jewish. I also know that despite losing so many
in my family, and my uncles' families [my mother's sisters also married
children of camp survivors] the generations live on. I owe it to my great
grandparents to be proud of where I come from. I also owe it to myself to
not dwell on the horror of the Holocaust. My grandmother, and many others
have almost been consumed by it and I know that it could easy do the same to
me. To this day I will not watch movies or TV or read books about the
Holocaust - not because I don't care, but because I cannot view the images
without taking it very, very personally.
Jacqueline
IleneB
<gar...@moria.zut> wrote:
> I'd appreciate any book recommendations people have. But I'm also wary.
> These feelings that have been coming up -- they're not rational, they're not
> pleasant, and I don't know if I can read about anything related to the
> Holocaust with a clear mind, without getting overwhelmed. Has anybody else
> dealt with *that*?
I share many of your feelings. My father is Jewish (completely not
practicing, although raised by observant immigrants). My mother is not
Jewish. I grew up in a post-war suburb full of veterans and European
refugees. I babysat for women with camp tattoos. In a weird way, you
knew everyone who'd been in a camp, but you'd *never* mention it. I
wasn't raised as any religion (my mother said, "If someone asks, tell
them 'None of your business.'") My father informed me that, "If Hitler
came back, you'd be Jewish enough" (meaning the Nuremberg racial laws
of 1935) but I knew being Jewish involved more than being Nazi bait,
and I knew my father was a hypocrite. My mother dragged my sister and
me to Jewish school on Saturdays (the Sabaath, hmm) for about six
months to civilize us somehow, but I pitched such a bitch, they let me
quit).
In 1961, during the Eichmann trial, there were a lot of paperback books
out about camps, Nazis, etc. I was eight years old. My father got these
books at the local drugstore, next to the Harlequin romances. I
remember the photos of ovens, bulldozers, etc. The only explanation I
got was the Germans are horrible people (as were Arabs, Hungarians, the
French, Poles, Ukranians, Balts, etc. The only good ones were the
Danes.)
I have done a lot of reading about the whole thing, both by survivors,
people who study them, etc. There are many good books beyond the
recounting of hideous details or personal experiences. I personally
feel I understand (intellectually largely) human evil and I don't like
what I think I understand, but I do think it's so.
Lawrence Langer and Robert Lifton have written some useful stuff.
Victor Frankl. Martin Gilbert is a terrific historian. I especially
recommend his book "The Holocaust." It shows the building of the
situation, that people weren't sitting home drinking coffee and
suddenly one day the army came and dragged them to camps. It was all in
context of a sort. (When I was a kid, I knew there had been "camps,"
and didn't quite get it. After all, there were summer camps and I
wanted to go to one).
It is certainly possible to be overwhelmed with the realities of what
happened. But that's true of any human gratuitous brutality and
cruelty, and there are plenty of examples before and since the
Holocaust. I think there are certainly Jews who want "Jewish" to mean
more than the Nazi years, since, of course, it goes back a bit further.
A book by a former priest, James Carroll, called "Constantine's Sword,"
was the best tour of the past 2,000 years of Christianity I've ever
read, and it's a subject of which I'm quite ignorant. Of course, it's
concurrently a tour of European history. Carroll maintains that
Jew-hating (the term he prefers to the polite "anti-Semitism") is an
intrinsic aspect of Christianity and its growth and spread in Europe
since about 300 AD. He also shows many times where it could have gone
differently and didn't. He solidly considers the Holocaust a hideous
but logical end result of that 2,000 years. Very readable and
informative.
On the other hand, the monologuist Spaulding Gray says that a black
cloud circles the planet and periodically just lands somewhere-
Germany, Beirut, Cambodia- and then moves on. If you'er overwhelmed,
some sort of thought along those lines can help- one simply cannot
rationally understand the depths of human cruelty.
You might check the Holocaust Museum website for book suggestions.
Also, any book you read is likely to have a pretty good bibliography to
jump off with.
Ilene B
IleneB
<ile...@shore.net> wrote:
I was unable to email you, Salome, so this is my email to you:
Please feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss further. I'm
looking around and realizing just how many books I have on the subject.
I tend to own the personal accounts (bought them also so my father
could read them). The heavier historical stuff has tended to be library
stuff. I absolutely recommend Martin Gilbert's historical stuff.
I certainly don't think a group can experience such a trauma and not
have it echo through many generations to come in many ways (including
the current mutual psychosis in the Mideast). There are some books by
children of survivors about their own experience as the next
generation. I'm trying to remember one author. Helen... something. She
runs groups for children of survivors, as she is one.
Oh. Maus I and Maus II by Arthur Spiegalman. (sp?) He won a Pulitzer
for Maus I. It is, of all things, a long cartoon book about his
parents' experiences in Poland before the war,during the camps, and
into current U.S. life. For some reason, the cartoons were more
poignant to me than any photos. Maybe because he made all the
characters animals- the Germans were German Shepards, the Jews mice.
Maybe because I identify so with animals, maybe because the cartoon
format gave just enough space for imagination in a way that gruesome
photos do not... but they were incredibly moving.
Movies. "Europa, Europa", both the movie and the book. True story of
Polish Jewish boy who escapes to Russian, joins the Young Communists,
is captured by Germans, becomes their mascot, is sent to Germany and
joins Hitler Youth, is liberated, moves to Israel and lives a long and
productive life. I think his name is Solomon Freedman. The book has the
same name as the movie.
"Shoah" documentary.
Heavens, I loved Leon Uris' book "Exodus" about 1948. If only all
Jewish men looked like Paul Newman in the movie. Come to think of it,
many of the Hollywood stars are/were Jewish with new names- Tony
Curtis, Kirk Douglas, Burt Lancaster, I think Charleton Heston, Paul
Newman (real name.)
Boy, I could go on and on. Feel free to email at your leisure if you'd
like.
barry dill
Hell by Kogon Treblinka by Steiner
The Day of the Americans by Gunn Human Behavior in a
Concentration Camp--Unknown Babi
Yar--Unkown
Dalton
> look like Campfire Girls.
No it won't.
artisan
> These feelings that have been coming up -- they're not rational, they're not
> pleasant, and I don't know if I can read about anything related to the
> Holocaust with a clear mind, without getting overwhelmed. Has anybody else
> dealt with *that*?
I am not Jewish, but I find Jewish theology and philosophy most
compelling (however, I have that basic **theist** mindset to accept
what I've read/heard also.). I have informally (VERY informally)
gained knowledge about Tanya, Tanach, Kabbala, etc. I am aware of the
Noachide Laws (Judaism for non-Jews) and try to live by them rather
than any other code of behavior.
I personally am not aware of rabid anti-Semitism, but I know it exits
in places such as Pennsatucky...I mean Pennsylvania....but only in the
most rural, isolated areas. I had many Jewish friends and associates
in college.....all of them brilliant. I did not experience too many
Anti-Semitic people in the city, but just like racism, it's probably
far underground waiting for the next unstable period in history to
resurface. Hate tends to work like that.
Personally, since it DOES exist, and will ALWAYS exist (it's just a
fact of life!!) I would keep it on the backburner without letting it
paralyze you. You have been given MANY good things, and I am sure
there are good reasons for you having all those good things. And as
far as people being able to tell what religion by looks, maybe there
is a bit of truth in that.....according to Judaism you will never be
"NOT-Jewish". This was highly taken advantage of during the
Holocaust. Small children were murdered, for the only reason they had
Jewish genes in their blood.
Have you ever read the holocaust studies on Aish.com? Informative and
compelling. However, I want to warn you this is an ORTHODOX JEWISH
SITE. It is strongly THEOLOGICALLY based. If you are not interested
in this sort of thing, this site is not for you. But I think you may
need to FIND something positive about your Jewishness to balance out
all the terror and hateful images you have seen in your life.
Lastly, the entire Middle East issue is **millenia** old. And I think
the explanations for the goings-on in the Mid-East are explainable
only by theological reasons found in the Torah. Because of this I
will say that Dubya, as much as he wants peace in the Mid-East, isn't
going to accomplish ANYTHING by sticking his right-winged, religious
Gentile nose into that issue.
Rox
______________________________________
"Do not be alarmed.
Sometimes our feelings conflict
with our programming."
--Android 16, Dragonball Z
http://www.geocities.com/artisan1998.geo/index.html
______________________________________
Salome
> Salome, I just want to say that I'm appalled that your parents
> instilled such fears in you. Perhaps they thought it was
> necessary--I'm not sure of your age, so I don't know how recent WW2
> would have been--but showing concentration camp footage to an
> 8-year-old, *especially* without any kind of context given, is
> inexcusable.
Thank you.
That was about 1965 - 1967. The Holocaust seemed very fresh in the minds of
the Jewish adults around me. I believe that my Russian grandmother
experienced pogroms, although I can't remember specific discussions about
it. (She came to the US when she was 18.) I don't know what was happening in
American/Israeli politics at the time, but supporting Israel was a big part
of the grown-ups' agenda, too. We (children) heard a lot about how "the
Arabs" wanted to drive the Jews into the sea. (No one ever mentioned the
Palestinians.)
It seems my parents -- and the rabbi and others in charge -- did feel it was
necessary to teach us that fear and paranoia. The message was definitely
that being Jewish was not so much a proud or interesting heritage as a
frightening and dangerous one.
At that age, I also heard plenty about nuclear weapons and their effects
from my father, who was fascinated by them. He would also tell me about new
weapons in development. I was terrified by this stuff, but it didn't have
the same visceral impact as the imagery from the death camps.
> I've also seen "Conspiracy"--I found it brilliant and terrifying. The
> two things that bothered me the most were, first, that that meeting
> happened in 1942, only a little over sixty years ago. That's not
> *nearly* long enough ago for shit like this to have been going on. It
> would be much easier to cope with if it was six hundred years, because
> then people could tell themselves that some progress had been made.
Interesting observation. In a way, though, I can't see this happening any
earlier. I mean, religious persecution and genocide are nothing new, but the
Final Solution included decidedly modern concepts -- the use of technology,
new inventions, to achieve assembly-line efficiency and to achieve it on a
mass scale, and to make the killing a completely impersonal thing. I'm sure
there is a lot more to it, but of course I haven't studied any of this. The
psychology of events around the Holocaust seems all too contemporary to me,
which is perhaps why many people feel that not much progress has really been
made.
> The second thing that disturbed me was simply this: those men weren't
> insane. Doctors, lawyers, military men, bureaucrats--they weren't
> raving lunatics, out of control. They were, some of them, highly
> intelligent, educated men, who thought they were doing the right
> thing.
And even those who were shaken by the proposals -- or who made legal
arguments against them -- were subtly brought around to supporting them,
whether by veiled threats or "reasonable" argument. That gradual shift to
unanimous agreement -- *so* brilliantly written -- is the scariest thing
about the film, IMO. Well, besides the fact that these men were able to see
an entire group of people as simply *not human*. And *that* pretty little
quirk of human nature has not changed.
> A chilling film.
DH says that it's the only horror film that ever actually scared him. DH is
not easily scared.
Salome
------------------------------------------------------------------
Duke: The lights are growing dim. I know a life of crime led me to
this sorry fate. And yet I blame society. Society made me what I am.
Otto: That's bullshit. You're a white suburban punk, just like me.
-- REPO MAN
Michelle Martin
Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
(snip)
> Sorry I can't add any more recommendations (the two vaguely related books
> that did come to mind, _In Search of Sugihara_ by Hillel Levine and _Tales
> from the Secret Annex_ by Anne Frank aren't really on-topic).
I also recommend Martin Gilbert's book, and further recommend Elie
Wiesel's "Night," which is listed as fiction, but is really a fictional
account of his experience in the camps. I also recommend Wiesel's "The
Fifth Son," and "The Accident" (also known as "Day"). These latter two
deal with survivors, and in "The Fifth Son," a child of survivors.
Michelle
--
Day Eleven: Bumped into Gandalf who is all sparkly white now. Asked him, "Who do
you have to blow to get last bottle of bleach in Middle Earth anyway?" Gandalf
said, "The Balrog." So not worth it. -- Legolas: The Very Secret Diaries
IleneB
> I've read the book - it's by Solomon Perel.
Yes, you're right. Not sure who I was thinking of- another survivor
story.
Did you also find the Maus characters quite moving? Yow. It's been
years. I forgot the Americans were the dogs. (My former fiance ended up
with my Maus books).
Ilene B
IleneB
<artis...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Small children were murdered, for the only reason they had
> Jewish genes in their blood.
If in fact there was such a thing as "Jewish genes." I believe James
Carroll discusses the Jew-hating of the Third Reich as being the first
time it was completely "racialized," that is, prior it really was a
religious issue. Although I always wondered why Jews or other heretics
didn't just *lie* during the Spanish Inquisition (or any other churchly
antics).
Ilene B
IleneB
Martin <mik...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> further recommend Elie
> Wiesel's "Night," which is listed as fiction, but is really a fictional
> account of his experience in the camps.
I'm not sure the survivor accounts, the bearing witness, is what Salome
is looking for. Of course, if she is, there are so many.
"Once There Was a World" a photo/historic essay about a murdered
village. The author is one of the few survivors. Not the camps, but the
some 2 million people murdered *by hand* outside countless villages and
towns and cities in the Russian/Ukranian/Baltic corridor (where I would
have been born, except my grandparents never would have made it). Also
notable for pointing out how many Jews escaped the Nazis to be killed
by local partisans, who might well have been fighting the Germans but
also murdered Jews quite eagerly.
"A Hole in the Heart of the World" describes a trip back to that area
in recent times. There are a lot of accounts like that (althugh this
one is unusually well written) since the Iron Curtain ended and a lot
of archives and all were opened to the West.
I just read "The Avengers," about a noted group of Jewish partisans and
how they, after the war, carried off a plan to poision a prison camp
full of SS officers. They killed thousands with poisoned bread. Their
original plan was to murder 6 million Germans. They ended up in Israel
and decided that serving Israel's survival was better revenge.
Fascinating stuff.
Ah, "The Cap" by Roman Frister (?). An absolutely unsentimental account
of one young man's survival, the many morally questionable or lousy
things he did to survive, and his own wondering if that was his basic
personality, if he learned it to survive, and how he continued some
behaviors into his liberated life for decades.
"When the Music Stopped," the only account I know of by a Gypsy man. (I
think that's the title. "When the Violin Stopped Plaing'0 Invaluable
accounts of gypsy life before the war, while escaping, and then getting
caught in the 1944 occupation of Hungary.
Again, I'm not sure what kind of books Salome is looking for. I do find
the "bearing witness" stories, while brutal to read, not necessarily
enlightening. A lot of the history, while well documented and verified,
can be somewhat dry for non-academics.
PBS has a very good (and unusual look) documentary called "Jewish
Partisans." Amazing to see these elder people who look like everyone's
Jewish uncle and aunt and the people you'd see at the mall in Jewish
suburbs, talking about, "So then we shot them," about peasants or
Jew-hating partisans, etc.
Ilene B
cluttercidal
circusgirl wrote:
Did Croats do that to Serbs also? Unfortunately I think this traitorous
tendency is evenly spread out over the majority of ethnic groups. 8-(
>
> The feeling of knowing that people you thought were your friends, or
> at least got on tolerably well with, actually hate and despise you
> with a deep and abiding hatred is just a really really nasty one (I
> had a small scale version of this happen to me in university where a
> bunch of people I thought were my friends started bombarding me with
> hate mail over a holiday weekend. The mail was sent to a local usenet
> group and I was appalled at the number of people who hated my guts.
> Goodness knows what could've happened in a totalitarian and/or war
> state. My relationships with other people were never the same again, I
> always have an abiding mistrust of anyone I'm not SURE of).
I've had not only "friends" pull that sort of stuff (but not through e-mail),
but relatives too. One can't get betrayed by children at least, when
choosing to be CF.
> MY mother in law is Palestinian, and she hates the Iaraelis. I mean,
> hates them. I don't debate the subject with her, however, although I
> don't for one second condone the crap SHaron is pulling at the moment
> I think I can understand why Israelis feel backed into a corner and
> why feel this kind of shit is necessary - the arab nations are not at
> all blameless when it comes to making the Iaraelis feel paranoid,
> unaccepted and hated. If I thought there was a bunch of people massed
> around my home waiting for me to step outside so they could kill me, I
> wouldn't feel too bad about spraying them with gunfire either....
>
> Anyway, I really don't want to start a middle east discussion-type
> flamewar here.
>
> Just my thoughts....
>
No flames. Just nodding with understanding.
-Mb
Salome
> If in fact there was such a thing as "Jewish genes." I believe James
> Carroll discusses the Jew-hating of the Third Reich as being the first
> time it was completely "racialized," that is, prior it really was a
> religious issue.
Very interesting.
> Although I always wondered why Jews or other heretics
> didn't just *lie* during the Spanish Inquisition (or any other churchly
> antics).
A lot of them did. We were taught about the Jews who "converted" under
duress but still practiced Judaism in secret.
Salome
------------------------------------------------------------------
One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light,
but by making the darkness conscious.
- Carl Gustav Jung
CKing10710
>Date: 8/2/03 8:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <BeidndUVy5T...@giganews.com>
"the
>Arabs" wanted to drive the Jews into the sea. (No one ever mentioned the
>Palestinians.)
I remember that! My mother mentioned them saying that a few times, and
although we aren't Jewish, she seemed furious with "the Arabs" for that
comment.
Watching the concentration camp images I feel the Government and People could
just turn on anyone and get that same thing going on with any type of people.
It scares me and makes me not want to trust anyone. It also makes me glad I'm
childfree. If they come after some kind of people who include me, I only have
ME to worry about trying to run or being killed.
Gregory Morrow
circusgirl wrote:
> I was just thinking about all this stuff today (no I'm not Jewish). A
> bunch of us were discussing "The Pianist" last night. The thing that
> film brought home to me was the nasty, slow insidious way Jews in
> Europe had their rights taken away from them little by little and
> NOBODY did a damn thing. There were plenty of opportunities for people
> in the occupied countries to protest this crap, and they didn't.
They didn't? Do you know what happened to pretty much *anyone* who happened
to protest German occupation policies?
Just about the only exception was Denmark, where the King and others wore
yellow Jewish stars in solidarity with the Jewish people. But Denmark was
not "heavily" occupied like most other nations were....
They
> just didn't care.
Au contraire. Many of them did. And many of these brave people paid for
their stance with lives. Many of them were not Jews BTW....
--
Best
Greg
nimue
> school at the temple every Saturday. My parents weren't especially
> religious, but were strongly into the social and cultural sides of Judaism,
> so I had to go to "Saturday school" until I was around 12 or 13. After that,
> I told my parents I refused to go any more, and IIRC they didn't put too
> much of a fuss about it. But by then, I had been very thoroughly immersed in
> a particular way of seeing things.
>
> I never believed in any of the religious stuff, was never interested in it,
> and never practiced it for a second once I was old enough to have a say in
> the matter. Organized religion of any stripe gives me the crawls. And yet, I
> am deeply, permanently a Jew. There is no escaping that identity: it feels
> like part of my genetic code. Why? Because this is what I was taught. "You
> are a Jew. The rest of the world will instantly recognize you as a Jew, no
> matter where you go. You are a member of a hated group of people. At any
> time, in any place, Jews could be slaughtered again. There could be pogroms,
> there could be extermination camps. They will be coming for *you*."
I know EXACTLY what you mean, and how you feel.
>
> The adults of my parents' and grandparents' generations shared this grim
> paranoia and utter conviction -- not only that it could happen again, any
> time, any place, but that we would be instantly recognized as part of the
> despised group. Because it was part of our nature to be despised, there
> somehow came a corollary that we must in some way be despicable. This sense
> of being an outsider who could never really feel safe (because no one would
> come to a Jew's -- to my -- defense) was strengthened by the fact that I
> grew up in neighborhoods and went to schools where I was the only Jew for
> miles around.
>
> I don't remember a whole lot about "Saturday school," but I do vividly
> remember being shown footage of the concentration camps when I was maybe
> eight, nine, ten years old. They showed us this stuff every year.
> Black-and-white footage of the bulldozers pushing bodies into pits; piles of
> corpses; piles of shoes and glasses; walking skeletons. I don't know whether
> this was British or American or even German footage, but it made a lasting
> impression. We weren't given much context -- nothing about the history of
> the Reich or the war -- just the gas chambers and the ovens. And the
> constant reminder, "This is your heritage. This could happen to you."
I remember these films. Plus, any time there was anything like this
on tv, my dad would watch it. Plus, he has bookshelves filled with
books like _The War Against the Jews_. People who haven't grown up
with this usually can't understand it.
>
> So. DH and I recently watched "Conspiracy," the HBO movie about the Wannsee
> Conference, where Nazi leaders met to plan the Final Solution. It's a
> brilliant film; the writing and acting are top-notch. I didn't know anything
> about this stuff. (DH, who's read tons of stuff about WWII, is well versed
> in it.) Then I saw part of an episode of "Band of Brothers" (which we
> haven't been watching), where the American soldiers discover a camp full of
> Jews and other "political prisoners." Oh man, there were those images
> again -- the emaciated corpses, the pits, the tattooed numbers, the people
> packed into wooden barracks, the walking skeletons.
>
> DH started telling me about his visit to the site of the Belsen camp in the
> late 70s, when he was stationed (British Army) in Germany. He described the
> place in detail, and showed me some photos on the web of the way the place
> looks now. He found it chilling, but fascinating. DH isn't Jewish. The lucky
> man grew up in a rational, atheist family, and his interest in WWII and the
> Holocaust is free of any emotional associations. He'd like to visit more of
> the camps. I realized that I don't want to visit any of those places, ever.
> The horror that was instilled in my childhood is still with me, and it's
> strong. Stronger than I ever realized until DH and I were talking. I hadn't
> even *thought* about that stuff in years. As we talked, that sense of *being
> a Jew* washed over me, and some of the fear that was taught me, too. I felt
> haunted.
>
> I wonder, has anyone else here ever experienced feelings like this?
Oh, yes. You should read a book by Alice Miller called _For Your Own
Good_. It explains the psychology of Hitler and Germany and why
people might do those things. It really made a lot of things clear
for me, and understanding helped lessen the fear -- somewhat.
>
> I've been thinking about doing some reading on the liberation of the camps,
> since I don't know anything about those events. (If they talked about it in
> "Saturday school," it was only as a brief lead-in to the formation of
> Israel, and to lessons about how important Israel was and how we must always
> support her.)
>
Again, _For Your Own Good_, by Alice Miller. That is not about
liberation, but you should read it.
> I'd appreciate any book recommendations people have. But I'm also wary.
> These feelings that have been coming up -- they're not rational, they're not
> pleasant, and I don't know if I can read about anything related to the
> Holocaust with a clear mind, without getting overwhelmed. Has anybody else
> dealt with *that*?
Yep. And that is why, for the third time, I recommend _For Your Own
Good_. It helped me.
>
> It's really disturbing to have these images in my head and not know where
> they came from. DH says that the footage with bulldozers was probably
> British, since the Brits had to use bulldozers to clear away the corpses.
> But beyond that, I have no clue. I wonder if there is any way to find out,
> and somehow demystify this very old horror in the back of my mind.
>
> Salome
nimue
IleneB
<nos...@c0mcast.net> wrote:
> Did Croats do that to Serbs also? Unfortunately I think this traitorous
> tendency is evenly spread out over the majority of ethnic groups. 8-(
It goes way back in the Balkans. During WWII, the Croats backed the
Germans and had their own fascist militia. Something like a million
Serbs were murdered (in addition to the Jews) and most in the most
gruesome ways. (See Under: Bushel of Eyeballs. Honest.) I think Germany
was the first to recognize Croatia as a country when Yugoslavia split
up, which emboldened everyone to start the ethnic wars yet again.
Ilene B
IleneB
<gar...@moria.zut> wrote:
> We were taught about the Jews who "converted" under
> duress but still practiced Judaism in secret.
There is supposedly a story about Jews who left Spain, moved to Mexico
and then migrated up to New Mexico and Catholics. The story goes that
they have some sort of ending to the Catholic prayers that translates
out to something like "But I'm really Jewish and I don't mean these
prayers." There's also a huge debate whether this is all an urban myth.
Some academic women brought the story out. Can't remember her name. She
labeled them "crypto-Jews" (I think) and they might have been descended
from "converseros."
Ilene B
IleneB
<9v7Xa.85797$0v4.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Gregory
Morrow <gregoryDOT...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Do you know what happened to pretty much *anyone* who happened
> to protest German occupation policies?
Maybe the OP meant that in Germany from 1933 on there were times when
people could have protested. Of course, some did, and ended up in
Dachau. Many, of course, left the country (and got stuck in other
countries that got invaded).
However, the behavior of Vichy France and the militias (and often just
average people) of Poland, the Baltics and Ukraine is an enduring
disgrace. No one had to stand up and get shot for "protest," but they
sure didn't have to denounce people, help hunt, eagerly help murder, or
sell out Jews for a kilo of sugar.
Ilene B
IleneB
<cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There is no escaping that identity: it feels
> > like part of my genetic code. Why? Because this is what I was taught.
I think it's a true shame if one's Jewish identity is solely or
primarily that of the hunted victim or the Holocaust. After all, there
are also some 5,000 years of history (and so many cultural
achievements) that are just as much a part of identity.
Yet I know what you mean. I shuddered through the uplifting movie
"Julia" when Jane Fonda was sneaking through Germany. I spent all of 12
hours in Frankfurt once during a layover (went into the city and met up
with an American friend) and felt I was jumping out of my skin over the
sound of German everywhere, especially the airport P.A. "Achtung
Achtung."
What's really odd is the only Germans I know are gay men. A journalist
friend of mine from Texas moved to Hamburg 20 years ago and has visited
with his partner, with friends. Once he sent two friends to visit me,
and one didn't speak English. Just hearing German in my house made me
feel ill, and the few words I knew were from war movies. "Arbeit" (As
in, "Ilene has to go to work tomorrowl" and "Schwien" as in, "We can
use the leftover meat for the cassarole."
I can never visit Ernest in Germany. We keep making ideas to have a
friend reunion anywhere else. Greek island, Danish island off season,
anywhere but there. And I know it's not rational.
Ilene B
Rabbit
> > to protest German occupation policies?
>
My father-in-law, who had a farm in occupied Poland, was told simply that he
had two choices: he could fight for the German army, or he could be shot.
Either way, he lost his property.
Rabbit
nimue
> In article <d394a7d.03080...@posting.google.com>, nimue
> <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> There is no escaping that identity: it feels
>>> like part of my genetic code. Why? Because this is what I was
>>> taught.
>
>
> I think it's a true shame if one's Jewish identity is solely or
> primarily that of the hunted victim or the Holocaust. After all, there
> are also some 5,000 years of history (and so many cultural
> achievements) that are just as much a part of identity.
>
> Yet I know what you mean. I shuddered through the uplifting movie
> "Julia" when Jane Fonda was sneaking through Germany. I spent all of
> 12 hours in Frankfurt once during a layover (went into the city and
> met up with an American friend) and felt I was jumping out of my skin
> over the sound of German everywhere, especially the airport P.A.
> "Achtung Achtung."
When I was in college, I took a creative writing class with a German girl.
I am ashamed to say that I really disregarded her. She was very unusual
(shaved head, tattooes, Dieter-esque writing style) and I just assumed she
was anti-Semitic. I just ignored her. Then -- as happens in many
colleges -- our stupid college newspaper printed a full-page ad denying the
Holocause ever happened. I was absolutely disgusted -- but this German girl
was HORRIFIED! She marched into class, clutching the paper in shaking
hands, and threw it down on the table, saying "How can they print this?
How can this happen? This is monstrous!" I was pleased and surprised and
amazed at her reaction -- and deeply ashamed of myself and my assumptions.
We became friends that day -- and are STILL friends now. I always thought
it was sweet revenge and beautifully ironic that the actions of these
Holocaust deniers opened the door to a wonderful relationship between a
German and a Jew. I actually knew a Holocaust denier Nazi f*ckwit at
school -- he looked like Gollem (and I know that name is based on the
Yiddish word for monster) with a hangover. I gave his name to the
Wiesenthal center -- he was involved, and needed watching.
>
> What's really odd is the only Germans I know are gay men. A journalist
> friend of mine from Texas moved to Hamburg 20 years ago and has
> visited with his partner, with friends. Once he sent two friends to
> visit me, and one didn't speak English. Just hearing German in my
> house made me feel ill,
Ah, well, I heard it all the time from my maternal grandmother and her
husband, my maternal grandfather, and my own father.
>and the few words I knew were from war
> movies. "Arbeit" (As in, "Ilene has to go to work tomorrowl" and
> "Schwien" as in, "We can use the leftover meat for the cassarole."
>
> I can never visit Ernest in Germany. We keep making ideas to have a
> friend reunion anywhere else. Greek island, Danish island off season,
> anywhere but there. And I know it's not rational.
Um -- I would much rather go to a Greek Island that Germany any day. Oh,
yes.
>
> Ilene B
--
nimue
"I don't understand why you don't want to see more of Spike. More
Spike makes everything better. Spike, Spike, Spike, wonderful Spike."
Clairel
"There are things I will not tolerate: students loitering on campus
after school, horrible murders with hearts being removed... and also
smoking." Principal Snyder
"It enrages me to be told I have a temper."
Rose
Yay for Harmony!!!!!!!!
IleneB
My friend Ernest sent me this letter last year. He's a gay Texan
American journalist who's been living in Hamburg for about 20 years.
Dear Ilene,
Stepping out the door of Loogestieg 3 this morning, I
noticed a paving stone had been removed and replaced
by four shiny bronze ones, each about 10 cms square.
Bending down for a closer look I realised names and
dates were on each of them.
And then I gasped as something caught in the back of
my throat.
They were the names of four people who had lived in
the very house where I now live. Jews who had been
deported by the Nazis in 1941.
I'd read that the city was installing small plaques
around town, but it had never occurred to me that I'd
find some on my own door step.
Though, of course, it's logical. There's no reason why
this six-storey turn-of-the-century apartment house
would be any different from any other in Hamburg.
All that's there to see on each miniature plaque is a
name, a birth date, the words "deportiert 1941" and a
final place name indicating the terminus: Lodz. That
is a place in Poland where a Nazi concentration camp
was located.
I stood there and pieced together the story in my
mind, drawing from the scanty information engraved on
that pavement.
Hermann and Gertrud Katz were in their mid-50s and
lived at Loogestieg 3 with their daughter Hildegard,
who was about 25.
And then there was the mystery of the fourth name.
Martha Frankenstein. She was several years older than
Hermann and Gertrud, but not old enough to have been a
parent. Perhaps an aunt.
Or perhaps she was another tenant in another flat.
1941.
Hitler's troops were advancing through Norway and the
Balkans after having subjugated the Low Countries and
France. Rommel's Afrika Korps was charging across
Libya towards the embattled British stronghold of
Tobruk.
The Blitz was on.
The Russian Offensive was about to begin.
The United States was still dithering about taking
sides.
It looked very much as if nothing could stop Hitler.
1941.
The RAF had staged a few bombing raids over Hamburg,
but the city was still largely intact. It was the
largest port in Europe, turning out U-boats and
warships.
1941.
And the Katz family was still living at Loogestieg 3
along with old Frau Frankenstein. Which flat or flats
had they lived in, do you suppose? For all I know,
they had lived under the roof where Klaus and I and
the birds live.
Wherever they had lived, there were still there in
1941. They had not fled. Perhaps they had lacked the
means.
More likely they thought things would turn out all
right for them, after all. Hermann Katz probably
served in World War I, perhaps had even been
decorated, and he felt his status as a veteran would
stand him in good with the Nazis.
But it hadn't turned out all right. First they were
banned from owning property, then they were banned
from working in a profession. Then they were forced to
wear patches identifying themselves as Jews - thus
preventing them from going to the movies or the
theatre.
They weren't even allowed to travel by tram up
Eppendorfer Land Strasse, the busy street at the
corner just a doorway down Loogestieg from this very
paving stone.
They weren't even permitted to own pets.
And finally, they just weren't permitted to live at
all. Not anywhere.
And that's when the knock came. Probably that very
buzzer to the right of the front door up three stone
steps from this paving stone.
Perhaps they used the lift - the same lift Klaus and I
use every day.
More likely, they clumped up the stairs and rang the
bell, banging on the door for good measure.
And the Katz's and old Frau Frankenstein were hauled
out and off and away.
As I stood there I could hear the sounds. The familiar
sounds of footfalls on those stairs. Living in a
place, you get to know the sounds. We always know when
the post man is coming because we recognised the sound
of his boots. The garbage men and their wheely bins
clunk-clunk-clunking out to the street. The sounds of
the downstairs neighbour lady's high heels, or the
soft pads of the big dog accompanying her pimp
brother's gait in those Italian shoes of his.
I could hear it all and knew exactly what I would have
heard that night: The buzzers ringing, followed by big
heavy boots pounding heavily up the stairs. Loud
knocks and ringing at doors two floors below.
Muffled voices. Unfamiliar voices. Official-sounding
men's voices. An elderly woman's startled replies.
Other voices. Indefinable sounds of movement in flats
two floors below.
And then the familiar sound of an apartment door being
pulled to firmly, followed by footsteps on the stairs.
The sound of heavy boots accompanied by the daintier
sound of a gentleman's street shoes, ladies' pumps.
And the final sound of the big oak front door
slamming, leaving the house silent again in the
nighttime dark.
I knelt down and, after touching my fingers to my
lips, I touched each name.
Four times.
For four who shared an address.
Love,
Ernest
IleneB
<rab...@hotstar.net> wrote:
> My father-in-law, who had a farm in occupied Poland,
Was he Polish, or was he one of the "ethnic Germans?"
Ilene B
Gregory Morrow
IleneB wrote:
I'd take *somewhat* of an exception to the Poles. The Poles were considered
by the Germans to be on the same level of the Jews, e.g. as trash to be
exterminated. Many of the Balts and the Ukrainians not only welcomed the
Germans, but actively collaborated.with them....AFAIK few Poles were pro -
German.
There is a history of Polish anti - semitism (which continued until the
60's, the Communist government was engaging in base Jew - baiting until at
least 1968), but both the Poles and the Jews living in Poland were in the
same boat, victim - wise.
--
Best
Greg
J.W.T. Meakin
cup_o...@yahoo.com says...
> I actually knew a Holocaust denier Nazi f*ckwit at school ...
> -- I gave his name to the Wiesenthal center --
> he was involved, and needed watching.
So you gave his name to the Wiesenthal center because
"he was involved, and needed watching".
What a chilling little phrase. Hasn't history taught you anything
at all?
Bill.
circusgirl
>
> They
> > just didn't care.
>
>
> Au contraire. Many of them did. And many of these brave people paid for
> their stance with lives. Many of them were not Jews BTW....
Yes my bad. You are right. I was feeling overly depressed at history
in general when I posted the above....
circusgirl
circusgirl
> JesterKat <jest...@outofmymindspringbackinfiveminutes.com> wrote in message news:<7a6nivoro21kgpp1b...@4ax.com>...
> > Salome, I just want to say that I'm appalled that your parents
> > instilled such fears in you.
> Hell, I grew up with Nuclear War nightmares. I grew up in the Cold
> War, and to be sure, we were probably safer then ... . now, the nukes
> the Reds had are in who knows whose control? Scary!
Glad I'm not the only one who had nightmares as a kid about nuclear
winter.... (actual nightmares).
circusgirl
Spandau
>Just about the only exception was Denmark, where the King and others wore
>yellow Jewish stars in solidarity with the Jewish people. But Denmark was
>not "heavily" occupied like most other nations were....
>
>
<delurk>
Actually, this is an urban legend:
http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/denmark.htm
Not disparaging the Danes or anyone else, just setting the record straight.
<relurk>
Spandau
REP
Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Spandau <fech...@att.net> wrote in <qopXa.83949$3o3.5796968@bgtnsc05
> -news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
> Another version I read about several years ago was that some Dutch
> gentiles wore the star. However, not all Dutch gentiles did, so it
> didn't have the "Nazis couldn't arrest star wearers because star wearers
> were 100% of the Nethderlands population!" effect the urban legend
> claims.
>
> And at least some of these gentile star wearers made slightly different
> stars for themselves: "Catholic" or "Protestant" or "Dutchman" or "Zulu"
> (I'm not making these up) or whatever instead of "Jewish" - both showing
> some solidarity and having a somewhat lower chance of arrest.
Sigh. I loved that legend, but apparently though the story is just a
story, the spirit of it is true.
Please don't tell me that King Haile Selassi ordering all men and boys
who could pick up a spear to do so in the face of a tank invasion isn't
true, either.
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
nimue
Absa-f*cking-lutely. It's taught me NOT to stick my head in the sand and
pretend everything is going to be ok. My relatives who did that in Russia
and Germany are DEAD. This person was receiving mail from Nazi and white
power groups. He was doing work for them. He scared the sh*t out of me.
Yeah -- he needed watching. Has history taught you nothing? He was
involved with violent organizations known for their violent activity against
innocent people. You know -- dangerous people in our society ARE watched.
When they are not, we get charming situations like the Federal Building in
Oklahoma, Columbine, the World Trade Center, stuff like that. What do you
think the Wiesenthal Center does, anyway? Here's the mission statement --
The Simon Wiesenthal Center is an international human rights organization
dedicated to preserving the memory of the Holocaust and to fostering
tolerance and understanding through community involvement, educational
outreach, and social action. The Center and its Museum of Tolerance confront
bigotry, racism, anti-Semitism, terrorism, and genocide.-- That doesn't
sound too bad to me. You are acting as if I was condemming this little Nazi
(and he self-identified that way) to eternal torture by alerting a group who
might know what to do about it to his dangerous presence. Listen, Bill, you
may not like the idea that some people need watching -- but some DO. I am
not saying all white men, or all Arabs, or all Sunday School teachers. I am
saying that individual people who say that they are Nazis (or any other
violent group) and agree with Nazi policy should be monitored or else they
may act on their hate-filled beliefs and murder innocent people.
>
> Bill.
Rabbit
>
> Was he Polish, or was he one of the "ethnic Germans?"
>
> Ilene B
He was a Pole who became a German citizen when he joined the army.
Rabbit
Rachel Pildis
exacerbated by growing up Jewish in a place with relatively few Jews.
(And yes, I was a visible minority to the folks I grew up with!) I
think it was pretty common in Hebrew school in the 70s: by 4th grade,
I had a rough idea of the death rates in each country (Lithuania and
Poland were especially bad). And yeah, I've never gotten a non-Jew to
understand how emotionally I feel this, even though I "came out" as an
atheist right before my bat mitzvah was being planned.
2 years of therapy helped (went in on an unrelated subject, kick-ass
therapist quickly pointed out that I seem to think that I could be
exiled or killed any second because of who I am - didn't realize
before that point that those weren't typical grad student thoughts).
The short novel "Briar Rose" by Jane Yolen is great and talks about
visiting the old country in the wake of the Holocaust.
And last year, several members of my family did go back to Lithuania
to see where my grandparents came from
(http://www.pildis.com/Lithuania2002). We did not go to Ponar where
the Nazis killed nearly all Lithuanian Jews because everyone in our
family got out by 1925, but we did go to the Jewish Museum in Vilnius
which went into great length about 1941. I think I found some small
measure of peace seeing Lithuania as a real place with friendly people
rather than remembering the 95% death rate of Jews there in 1941. My
fallen-away Catholic husband was stunned to see some actual German
records of how many Jews were killed each day, and I think got a taste
of what I grew up with. And seeing the KGB museum showed us the
suffering of the Lithuanians under Soviet rule, and so emphasized that
anyone can end up oppressed.
I dunno - I don't think I'd visit a camp, but it wouldn't hurt to
visit areas where there were camps. Often, the mystery around a
painful topic is worse than the topic itself. Perhaps approach it
with fiction first (like "Briar Rose"), then history books, then the
visit?
Rachel (perversely glad that she's not the only one...)
"Salome" <gar...@moria.zut> wrote in message news:<HOicnfSkQdw...@giganews.com>...
> I've been thinking about doing some reading on the liberation of the camps,
> since I don't know anything about those events. (If they talked about it in
> "Saturday school," it was only as a brief lead-in to the formation of
> Israel, and to lessons about how important Israel was and how we must always
> support her.)
>
> I'd appreciate any book recommendations people have. But I'm also wary.
> These feelings that have been coming up -- they're not rational, they're not
> pleasant, and I don't know if I can read about anything related to the
> Holocaust with a clear mind, without getting overwhelmed. Has anybody else
> dealt with *that*?
>
> It's really disturbing to have these images in my head and not know where
> they came from. DH says that the footage with bulldozers was probably
> British, since the Brits had to use bulldozers to clear away the corpses.
> But beyond that, I have no clue. I wonder if there is any way to find out,
> and somehow demystify this very old horror in the back of my mind.
>
> Salome
Morwen
(in message <030820032111512159%ile...@shore.net>):
The Mezuzah in the Madonna's Foot: Marranos and Other Secret Jews--A Woman
Discovers Her Spiritual Heritage, by Trudi Alexy. This book is supposed to be
good, although I have not yet read it.
Morwen
Salome
> I had almost the same experience as you growing up Jewish, perhaps
> exacerbated by growing up Jewish in a place with relatively few Jews.
> (And yes, I was a visible minority to the folks I grew up with!)
I'm glad too, to know I'm not the only one. It's amazingly comforting to
hear from folks like you, Rachel. It really helps with that demystification,
too -- bringing things down to earth rather than feeling haunted by this
huge, ancient darkness.
> I
> think it was pretty common in Hebrew school in the 70s
That's good to know, too.
> by 4th grade,
> I had a rough idea of the death rates in each country (Lithuania and
> Poland were especially bad).
I can't recall whether we went into those kinds of details. I have a feeling
we did. We read The Diary of Anne Frank, of course. And probably a lot of
other stuff.
The only things I remember studying in "Saturday school" are the first few
letters of the Hebrew alphabet; Old Testament stories -- Moses, Esther,
Ruth, and so on; the meanings of the various holy days; how cool kibbutzim
and sabras were; and the persecution of Jews since the Middle Ages, through
pogroms and the Holocaust. Mostly the Holocaust.
(My parents were very Reform; I think they would have been surprised if I
wanted a bat mitzvah. I don't recall the temple pushing for it, either.)
> 2 years of therapy helped (went in on an unrelated subject, kick-ass
> therapist quickly pointed out that I seem to think that I could be
> exiled or killed any second because of who I am - didn't realize
> before that point that those weren't typical grad student thoughts).
Fascinating. I've been having those sorts of "non-typical" thoughts for
what, 34 years? And no one, including me, ever really pointed it out. Or
identified where it might be coming from. People seem to just sort of tend
to think I'm a "negative" person. :-)
> The short novel "Briar Rose" by Jane Yolen is great and talks about
> visiting the old country in the wake of the Holocaust.
Thanks for the recommendation. Do you know off-hand what book this story is
in?
> And last year, several members of my family did go back to Lithuania
> to see where my grandparents came from...
<snip>
> I think I found some small
> measure of peace seeing Lithuania as a real place with friendly people
> rather than remembering the 95% death rate of Jews there in 1941.
It's good to hear that.
One of my grandfathers is from Vienna, and I've occasionally felt an
interest in visiting the city. His wife was my Russian grandmother. I have
no desire to visit Russia. Then there was my German grandmother; I have no
idea what part of Germany she was from, but I don't think I can ever set
foot in that country. As for her husband, they were estranged from my
mother's early childhood on, so I never learned much about him. He was part
German, part Hungarian, part something else, but that's all I know. (And
that he abandoned my grandmother and her children and was apparently a
manic, abusive man.)
My parents visited us three years ago, and I tried to get more information
out of them about my grandparents and earlier generations. But my parents
are still extremely evasive. Or they simply don't know much about the family
history. Maybe because my immigrant grandparents didn't want to talk about
it. In any case, I don't have a sense of any place I could visit that would
give me any sort of connection with them.
> My
> fallen-away Catholic husband was stunned to see some actual German
> records of how many Jews were killed each day, and I think got a taste
> of what I grew up with. And seeing the KGB museum showed us the
> suffering of the Lithuanians under Soviet rule, and so emphasized that
> anyone can end up oppressed.
This sounds like a powerful experience for both of you. Perhaps not a
pleasant one, but one that brings real understanding.
> I dunno - I don't think I'd visit a camp, but it wouldn't hurt to
> visit areas where there were camps. Often, the mystery around a
> painful topic is worse than the topic itself.
Very true. That's the exact reason I'm putting out feelers about the topic
here -- it feels like a safe place to do it, and a good way to begin that
process and see if I need to, or can, go any further with it.
> Perhaps approach it
> with fiction first (like "Briar Rose"), then history books, then the
> visit?
Thank you for the suggestion. I would like to read "Briar Rose."
J.W.T. Meakin
cup_o...@yahoo.com says...
> >> I actually knew a Holocaust denier Nazi f*ckwit at school ...
> >> -- I gave his name to the Wiesenthal center --
> >> he was involved, and needed watching.
> >
> > So you gave his name to the Wiesenthal center because
> > "he was involved, and needed watching".
> >
> > What a chilling little phrase. Hasn't history taught you anything
> > at all?
>
> Absa-f*cking-lutely. It's taught me NOT to stick my head in the sand and
> pretend everything is going to be ok. My relatives who did that in Russia
> and Germany are DEAD. This person was receiving mail from Nazi and white
> power groups. He was doing work for them. He scared the sh*t out of me.
> Yeah -- he needed watching. Has history taught you nothing?
This seems like a good place to come in. Here are just a few
observations:
Liberty is rare and precious.
There is a constant battle between liberty and security.
Liberty always loses in the end, and the security for which it
was traded is lost shortly thereafter. Liberty may be restored,
but only after one or more bloody convulsions.
"watching" erodes liberty. A society in which it is common for
people to be watched does far more damage to itself than any that
could be done by those people unwatched.
Bill.
nimue
> In article <TgsXa.18836$gU6.2...@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> cup_o...@yahoo.com says...
>
>>>> I actually knew a Holocaust denier Nazi f*ckwit at school ...
>>>> -- I gave his name to the Wiesenthal center --
>>>> he was involved, and needed watching.
>>>
>>> So you gave his name to the Wiesenthal center because
>>> "he was involved, and needed watching".
>>>
>>> What a chilling little phrase. Hasn't history taught you anything
>>> at all?
>>
>> Absa-f*cking-lutely. It's taught me NOT to stick my head in the
>> sand and pretend everything is going to be ok. My relatives who did
>> that in Russia and Germany are DEAD. This person was receiving mail
>> from Nazi and white power groups. He was doing work for them. He
>> scared the sh*t out of me. Yeah -- he needed watching. Has history
>> taught you nothing?
>
> This seems like a good place to come in. Here are just a few
> observations:
>
> Liberty is rare and precious.
So is life. Ask the people at the Federal Building in Oklahoma, or the
World Trade Center.
>
> There is a constant battle between liberty and security.
> Liberty always loses in the end, and the security for which it
> was traded is lost shortly thereafter. Liberty may be restored,
> but only after one or more bloody convulsions.
>
> "watching" erodes liberty.
What do you suggest we do? Get rid of the Southern Poverty Law Center?
Destroy the Anti-Defamation League? I am NOT saying that people should lose
their constitutional rights, and I do not support Bush's plot to rob us of
ours, but by god if I know someone is involved with violent racist groups I
am going to do my very best to protect people from being killed or hurt by
that person.
>A society in which it is common for
> people to be watched does far more damage to itself than any that
> could be done by those people unwatched.
Um -- I am not advocating watching grandma sit at her knitting. I am
advocating knowing who is involved with violent hate groups -- especially
when those people are eager and willing to kill for their cause.
IleneB
<_jkXa.86816$0v4.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Gregory
Morrow <gregoryDOT...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> both the Poles and the Jews living in Poland were in the
> same boat, victim - wise.
Hardly. although the Poles were certainly regarded below "acceptable"
groups. And the anti-Semitism (led so much by the church) in Poland
certainly produced a lot of willing violance and denouncement of Jews
by Poles. I am aware that some 3 million Poles also died in WWII,
mostly at German hands (although some Russian, also). But the actions
against Jews by Poles were not German driven (even if they were German
rewarded).
Ilene B
IleneB
<qopXa.83949$3o3.5...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Spandau
<fech...@att.net> wrote:
> Not disparaging the Danes or anyone else, just setting the record straight.
Right, it is a legend. But it is true that the overall Danish populace
came together to rescue virtually all Danish Jews who would leave and
be hidden and sent to Sweden. I do appreciate that the Germans weren't
willing to come in and mow down Danish civilians the way they were
willing to do so in other occupied countries.
Ilene B
nimue
> Spandau <fech...@att.net> wrote in <qopXa.83949$3o3.5796968@bgtnsc05
> -news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
>
> gentiles wore the star. However, not all Dutch gentiles did, so it
> didn't have the "Nazis couldn't arrest star wearers because star
> wearers were 100% of the Nethderlands population!" effect the urban
> legend claims.
>
> And at least some of these gentile star wearers made slightly
> different stars for themselves: "Catholic" or "Protestant" or
> "Dutchman" or "Zulu" (I'm not making these up) or whatever instead of
> "Jewish" - both showing some solidarity and having a somewhat lower
> chance of arrest.
The truth of the matter is that the Danes saved over 95% of their Jewish
population. No other country did that. Here is some wonderful and
fascination information about Denmark and how it saved the Jews living
there.
http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/denmark.htm
Denmark was the only occupied country that actively resisted the Nazi
regime's attempts to deport its Jewish citizens. On September 28, 1943,
Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, a German diplomat, secretly informed the Danish
resistance that the Nazis were planning to deport the Danish Jews. The Danes
responded quickly, organizing a nationwide effort to smuggle the Jews by sea
to neutral Sweden. Warned of the German plans, Jews began to leave
Copenhagen, where most of the 8,000 Jews in Denmark lived, and other cities,
by train, car, and on foot. With the help of the Danish people, they found
hiding places in homes, hospitals, and churches. Within a two-week period
fishermen helped ferry 7,220 Danish Jews and 680 non-Jewish family members
to safety across the narrow body of water separating Denmark from Sweden.
The Danish rescue effort was unique because it was nationwide. It was not
completely successful, however. Almost 500 Danish Jews were deported to the
Theresienstadt ghetto in Czechoslovakia. Yet even of these Jews, all but 51
survived the Holocaust, largely because Danish officials pressured the
Germans with their concerns for the well-being of those who had been
deported. The Danes proved that widespread support for Jews and resistance
to Nazi policies could save lives.
nimue
You should try to rent or buy Weapons of the Spirit about the people of Le
Chambon sur Lignon. It is about a town in France that saved many Jews.
It's an AMAZING story, uplifting and thought-provoking. The film's writer
and director was saved there as a little child, and he says that the town
was engaged in a "conspiracy of goodness." I cannot recommend this film
highly enough, and am getting choked up just writing about it.
mrfea...@aol.ccom
>
>> My
>> fallen-away Catholic husband was stunned to see some actual German
>> records of how many Jews were killed each day, and I think got a taste
>> of what I grew up with. And seeing the KGB museum showed us the
>> suffering of the Lithuanians under Soviet rule, and so emphasized that
>> anyone can end up oppressed.
>
>This sounds like a powerful experience for both of you. Perhaps not a
>pleasant one, but one that brings real understanding.
>
>> I dunno - I don't think I'd visit a camp, but it wouldn't hurt to
>> visit areas where there were camps. Often, the mystery around a
>> painful topic is worse than the topic itself.
>
>Very true. That's the exact reason I'm putting out feelers about the topic
>here -- it feels like a safe place to do it, and a good way to begin that
>process and see if I need to, or can, go any further with it.
Salome and Rachel:
I haven't participated in this thread so far -- I'm not Jewish and can't really
help you much. I can tell you this, though: based on what both of you have
said, unless you're very certain you can deal with it, don't visit a
concentration camps. I went to Dachau some years ago and it was a dark, dark
experience for me, and I haven't got relatives who were put in camps.
Also, have either of you visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?
Going there was also a powerful experience, but not nearly as depressing since
in addition to remembrance they do focus on survival and on Jews and non-Jews
who helped people survive the Holocaust. There's an avenue called the Avenue of
the Righteous Among Nations and each tree lining the avenue is dedicated to an
individual who was documented as having saved a life (or lives). I was
gratified to see my own family name on one of the trees and (since it's somewhat
unusual) wonder whether this person isn't a relative. I'd like to think he was.
Mary
IleneB
<cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You should try to rent or buy Weapons of the Spirit about the people of Le
> Chambon sur Lignon.
I saw it when it came out (back when Cambridge movies were actually
interesting).
Ilene B
Salome
> Salome and Rachel:
>
> I haven't participated in this thread so far -- I'm not Jewish and can't
really
> help you much. I can tell you this, though: based on what both of you
have
> said, unless you're very certain you can deal with it, don't visit a
> concentration camps. I went to Dachau some years ago and it was a dark,
dark
> experience for me, and I haven't got relatives who were put in camps.
Thank you for your insight, Mary. I value people's thoughts on this, whether
or not they are Jewish. (After all, I brought this up on a CF group, not a
Jewish-related one! This is where I feel most comfortable.)
Visiting a camp is not something I want to do. Just talking with people here
on ascf is enough for me, for now. I still haven't even looked at the links
DH found for me about the various camps.
> Also, have either of you visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem?
>
> http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/
I'd never heard of it. Thanks for the link, and thank you for describing
your experience there. It does sound powerful indeed.
J.W.T. Meakin
> >
> >>>> I actually knew a Holocaust denier Nazi f*ckwit at school ...
> >>>> -- I gave his name to the Wiesenthal center --
> >>>> he was involved, and needed watching.
> >>>
> >>> So you gave his name to the Wiesenthal center because
> >>> "he was involved, and needed watching".
> >>>
> >>> What a chilling little phrase. Hasn't history taught you anything
> >>> at all?
> >>
> >> Absa-f*cking-lutely. It's taught me NOT to stick my head in the
> >> sand and pretend everything is going to be ok. My relatives who did
> >> that in Russia and Germany are DEAD. This person was receiving mail
> >> from Nazi and white power groups. He was doing work for them. He
> >> scared the sh*t out of me. Yeah -- he needed watching. Has history
> >> taught you nothing?
> >
> > This seems like a good place to come in. Here are just a few
> > observations:
> >
> > Liberty is rare and precious.
>
> So is life. Ask the people at the Federal Building in Oklahoma, or the
> World Trade Center.
I take it your argument is that these people were victims of violence
that could have been forestalled if the right people had been "watched".
There is little evidence for this, and the exhaustive enquiries
into the world Trade Center seem to point the other way.
The problem is, the watchers are usually watching the wrong people.
This excerpt from the Intelligence project of the Southern Poverty
Law Center exemplifies:
> In 1994, after uncovering links between white supremacist organizations
> and elements of the emerging antigovernment "Patriot" movement, the
> Center expanded its monitoring operation to include the activities of
> militias and other extremist antigovernment groups. Six months before
> the Oklahoma City bombing, the Center warned the U.S. Attorney General
> that the new mixture of armed militia groups and those who hate was a
> recipe for disaster.
Big deal. They can watch all the white supremacist organizations, etc.
they want. They'd still miss McVeigh. He was a loner.
On the other hand, the license to watch, the habit of watching, leads
to sometimes heavy-handed and sometimes outrageous and murderous acts
by the watchers. Waco (which was what set McVeigh off) being one of
the heavy-handed ones.
> > "watching" erodes liberty.
> What do you suggest we do? Get rid of the Southern Poverty Law Center?
> Destroy the Anti-Defamation League?
They are private organizations and so long as they act lawfully the
question of "getting rid of them" does not even arise. No-one has the
power to, and that is as it should be.
However, I personally will not help them or any others like them in
any part of their self-chosen mission that involves "watching" others.
> I am NOT saying that people should lose
> their constitutional rights, and I do not support Bush's plot to rob us of
> ours,
I think the idea that your current President is involved in a plot to
rob you of your constitutional rights (which in themselves constitute
only a small part of your liberties) is just plain silly.
Your President is concerned with paying off the various special interest
groups that helped to get him almost elected, and with making sure they
will help again. After that he arranges to get lots of news coverage,
keeps fit, and enjoys playing with his Army.
> but by god if I know someone is involved with violent racist groups I
> am going to do my very best to protect people from being killed or hurt by
> that person.
If I saw someone on my property or loitering around the edge of it
showing a more than casual interest, you can bet the police would
shortly get a phone call. Same if it was my neighbours property.
But if my neighbour started holding Thursday gatherings for people
who showed up in large trucks with strange bumper stickers on them
-- you know, something like "The tree of liberty must be refreshed
from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." --
I WOULD DO NOTHING AT ALL.
> Um -- I am not advocating watching grandma sit at her knitting. I am
> advocating knowing who is involved with violent hate groups -- especially
> when those people are eager and willing to kill for their cause.
And that wanting to know who is involved with groups that you
don't agree with, if institutionalized, leads to secret police
and knocks on the door in the middle of the night.
No thank you.
Bill.
Vera Izrailit
> I never believed in any of the religious stuff, was never interested in it,
> and never practiced it for a second once I was old enough to have a say in
> the matter. Organized religion of any stripe gives me the crawls. And yet, I
> am deeply, permanently a Jew. There is no escaping that identity: it feels
> like part of my genetic code.
Same here.
> Why? Because this is what I was taught. "You
> are a Jew. The rest of the world will instantly recognize you as a Jew, no
> matter where you go. You are a member of a hated group of people. At any
> time, in any place, Jews could be slaughtered again. There could be pogroms,
> there could be extermination camps. They will be coming for *you*."
I was taught that too. The first practical demonstration of it came
when I came to the daycare and the nurse there called me a kike (it
was in St. Petersburg), although it took me some time to process
it and connect my family's warning with the extremely hostile behavior
of the daycare staff. Later in school the antisemitism got even more
overt, but it did not bother me quite as much because I did not have to
interact with those people nearly as much.
> The adults of my parents' and grandparents' generations shared this grim
> paranoia and utter conviction -- not only that it could happen again, any
> time, any place, but that we would be instantly recognized as part of the
> despised group.
My family shared this paranoia too, and I share it wholeheartedly,
although I think that it can happen to any ethnic minority - Jews
are just the most obvious target for a lot of people. My paranoia
has increased considerably when around 1985 the government newspapers
(still in St. Petersburg) started printing articles about how everything
is Jews' fault.
> Because it was part of our nature to be despised, there
> somehow came a corollary that we must in some way be despicable.
Funny, the idea never occured to me. :)
> This sense
> of being an outsider who could never really feel safe (because no one would
> come to a Jew's -- to my -- defense) was strengthened by the fact that I
> grew up in neighborhoods and went to schools where I was the only Jew for
> miles around.
I can relate to it quite well. I am an outsider and I am have never felt
or been really safe in my life. (Although right now it has to do with
being a foreigner, not with being a Jew. OTOH I've always been a foreigner,
in one way or another.)
> DH started telling me about his visit to the site of the Belsen camp in the
> late 70s, when he was stationed (British Army) in Germany. He described the
> place in detail, and showed me some photos on the web of the way the place
> looks now. He found it chilling, but fascinating. DH isn't Jewish. The lucky
> man grew up in a rational, atheist family, and his interest in WWII and the
> Holocaust is free of any emotional associations. He'd like to visit more of
> the camps. I realized that I don't want to visit any of those places, ever.
I want to visit them, even though I know I won't enjoy it.
> The horror that was instilled in my childhood is still with me, and it's
> strong. Stronger than I ever realized until DH and I were talking. I hadn't
> even *thought* about that stuff in years. As we talked, that sense of *being
> a Jew* washed over me, and some of the fear that was taught me, too. I felt
> haunted.
> I wonder, has anyone else here ever experienced feelings like this?
Not quite like this. I don't feel haunted, just paranoid in the
"anything can happen anytime and I gotta be prepared" way.
> I'd appreciate any book recommendations people have.
Don't have any specific ones on hand - each time I want to read up
on Holocaust or on any part of history in general I just go to a
local library and look through the shelves.
> But I'm also wary.
> These feelings that have been coming up -- they're not rational, they're not
> pleasant, and I don't know if I can read about anything related to the
> Holocaust with a clear mind, without getting overwhelmed. Has anybody else
> dealt with *that*?
Yes. I read, I get overwhelmed, then I read some more. :)
--
Vera Izrailit
Rachel Pildis
> > 2 years of therapy helped (went in on an unrelated subject, kick-ass
> > therapist quickly pointed out that I seem to think that I could be
> > exiled or killed any second because of who I am - didn't realize
> > before that point that those weren't typical grad student thoughts).
>
> Fascinating. I've been having those sorts of "non-typical" thoughts for
> what, 34 years? And no one, including me, ever really pointed it out. Or
> identified where it might be coming from. People seem to just sort of tend
> to think I'm a "negative" person. :-)
Believe me, it was an eye-opening experience to find out that there
were other ways to see the world. Paradoxically, perhaps, it has made
me more compassionate because I don't have to spend so much damn
energy worrying about when "they're gonna get me". (Although some of
this could come from living in a more diverse place where I look
comparatively white bread!)
> > The short novel "Briar Rose" by Jane Yolen is great and talks about
> > visiting the old country in the wake of the Holocaust.
>
> Thanks for the recommendation. Do you know off-hand what book this story is
> in?
You can buy it all by itself!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765342308/qid=1060097086/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-6264439-6115811
> My parents visited us three years ago, and I tried to get more information
> out of them about my grandparents and earlier generations. But my parents
> are still extremely evasive. Or they simply don't know much about the family
> history. Maybe because my immigrant grandparents didn't want to talk about
> it. In any case, I don't have a sense of any place I could visit that would
> give me any sort of connection with them.
Ditto - no one wants to talk about the "old country". I think some of
that is the self-imposed pressure to Americanize, which includes
trying real hard to forget all the inbreeding that was S.O.P. in the
shtetl. Very few folks in the immmigrant and children of immigrant
generations want to talk about the collapsing family tree (first
cousin marriages, uncle/niece marriages, etc.)! But hey, we're
childfree so it doesn't have the same fear factor for us.....
> Thank you for the suggestion. I would like to read "Briar Rose."
It's a short but powerful read. I first read it in one sitting at
Borders #1 in Ann Arbor - just sat on an uncomfortable little stool
until I got the whole damn thing done. I tried to explain this
experience to some fellow grad students at the time and they Just Did
Not Get It. But I did, and I've now realized that that is the
important thing.
Rachel
Jen in Austin
J.W.T. Meakin <jw...@sbcglobal.net> scribbled:
<snip>
>On the other hand, the license to watch, the habit of watching, leads
>to sometimes heavy-handed and sometimes outrageous and murderous acts
>by the watchers. Waco (which was what set McVeigh off) being one of
>the heavy-handed ones.
<snip snip>
>And that wanting to know who is involved with groups that you
>don't agree with, if institutionalized, leads to secret police
>and knocks on the door in the middle of the night.
>
>No thank you.
>
>Bill.
Bravo. Well stated!
Jen
--
A dog will give its life to save yours. A cat will be annoyed by all the yelling and sirens.
Rob & Jen's Place: http://www.robandjen.net/
Salome
> > > The short novel "Briar Rose" by Jane Yolen is great and talks about
> > > visiting the old country in the wake of the Holocaust.
> >
> > Thanks for the recommendation. Do you know off-hand what book this story
is
> > in?
>
> You can buy it all by itself!
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765342308/qid=1060097086/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-6264439-6115811
Thanks very much. The book looks really good.
> > My parents visited us three years ago, and I tried to get more
information
> > out of them about my grandparents and earlier generations. But my
parents
> > are still extremely evasive. . .
>
> Ditto - no one wants to talk about the "old country". I think some of
> that is the self-imposed pressure to Americanize, which includes
> trying real hard to forget all the inbreeding that was S.O.P. in the
> shtetl.
I had no idea about that.
> > Thank you for the suggestion. I would like to read "Briar Rose."
>
> It's a short but powerful read. I first read it in one sitting at
> Borders #1 in Ann Arbor - just sat on an uncomfortable little stool
> until I got the whole damn thing done.
That sounds like a good way to do it.
> I tried to explain this
> experience to some fellow grad students at the time and they Just Did
> Not Get It.
*nod*
> But I did, and I've now realized that that is the
> important thing.
Yes indeed.
mroo philpott-smythe
> In article <3F2C9910...@c0mcast.net>, cluttercidal
> <nos...@c0mcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Did Croats do that to Serbs also? Unfortunately I think this traitorous
>>tendency is evenly spread out over the majority of ethnic groups. 8-(
>>
>
> It goes way back in the Balkans. During WWII, the Croats backed the
> Germans and had their own fascist militia. Something like a million
> Serbs were murdered (in addition to the Jews) and most in the most
> gruesome ways. (See Under: Bushel of Eyeballs. Honest.) I think Germany
> was the first to recognize Croatia as a country when Yugoslavia split
> up, which emboldened everyone to start the ethnic wars yet again.
What is this Bushel of Eyeballs?
I know the Croats were Catholic and fascists, and murdered Serbs and
Kosovars shamelessly, in addition to happily turning Jews over for the
ovens.
But I don't know anything about Bushel of Eyeballs. Please elucidate.
Thanks,
sq
mroo philpott-smythe
> circusgirl wrote:
>>I was just thinking about all this stuff today (no I'm not Jewish). A
>>bunch of us were discussing "The Pianist" last night. The thing that
>>film brought home to me was the nasty, slow insidious way Jews in
>>Europe had their rights taken away from them little by little and
>>NOBODY did a damn thing. There were plenty of opportunities for people
>>in the occupied countries to protest this crap, and they didn't.
> They didn't? Do you know what happened to pretty much *anyone* who happened
> to protest German occupation policies?
Do you know how few Nazis it took to run *all* of Germany and much of
occupied Europe? That was because people did not protest, and sometimes
eagerly assisted in carrying out, German occupation policies.
> Just about the only exception was Denmark, where the King and others wore
> yellow Jewish stars in solidarity with the Jewish people. But Denmark was
> not "heavily" occupied like most other nations were....
> Au contraire. Many of them did. And many of these brave people paid for
> their stance with lives. Many of them were not Jews BTW....
To the brave people who protested, utmost respect, admiration, and
everlasting glory.
To the millions of cowards who pretended not to see, or who *helped* to
beat, kill, rape, maim, and torture thousands of the helpless,
everlasting disgrace and infamy.
Some things are worth dying for.
sq
mroo philpott-smythe
> I grew up in a Jewish family, and from an early age was taken to religious
> school at the temple every Saturday. My parents weren't especially
> religious, but were strongly into the social and cultural sides of Judaism,
[schnip]
They sent you to schul? How secular could they be?
> [geschnippe] "You are a member of a hated group of people. At any
> time, in any place, Jews could be slaughtered again. There could be pogroms,
> there could be extermination camps. They will be coming for *you*."
>
> The adults of my parents' and grandparents' generations shared this grim
> paranoia and utter conviction -- not only that it could happen again, any
> time, any place, but that we would be instantly recognized as part of the
> despised group.
They weren't too far off the mark. Remember that it was not the *Jews*
who imposed this, but the Xtians. All you have to do is look back at
WWII. Even those who had absolutely no Jewish faith, observance, mode of
dress, language, or even any links with Jews excepting perhaps a
grandparent on one side - were Jews, for all intents and purposes, to
the Nazis. And could, and would, be killed.
> I don't remember a whole lot about "Saturday school," but I do vividly
> remember being shown footage of the concentration camps when I was maybe
> eight, nine, ten years old. They showed us this stuff every year.
> Black-and-white footage of the bulldozers pushing bodies into pits; piles of
> corpses; piles of shoes and glasses; walking skeletons. I don't know whether
> this was British or American or even German footage, but it made a lasting
> impression. We weren't given much context -- nothing about the history of
> the Reich or the war -- just the gas chambers and the ovens. And the
> constant reminder, "This is your heritage. This could happen to you."
When I was between 8 and 10 years old, my father had me read a pile of
books about the Holocaust, and Nazi Germany. He said he was giving me
political background for crimes against humanity, and that we should
never forget that people could, and would, do such things to each other.
The books were chock-full of pictures. I had nightmares for months.
> The horror that was instilled in my childhood is still with me, and it's
> strong. Stronger than I ever realized until DH and I were talking. I hadn't
> even *thought* about that stuff in years. As we talked, that sense of *being
> a Jew* washed over me, and some of the fear that was taught me, too. I felt
> haunted.
>
> I wonder, has anyone else here ever experienced feelings like this?
Yup. And I'm not Jewish. I think exposure to humanity's er, more
revolting failings at an early age had plenty to do with it.
Of course, I've also lived through some pretty spectacular murder and
bloodshed, as a sprog.
> I've been thinking about doing some reading on the liberation of the camps,
> since I don't know anything about those events. (If they talked about it in
> "Saturday school," it was only as a brief lead-in to the formation of
> Israel, and to lessons about how important Israel was and how we must always
> support her.)
> I'd appreciate any book recommendations people have. But I'm also wary.
> These feelings that have been coming up -- they're not rational, they're not
> pleasant, and I don't know if I can read about anything related to the
> Holocaust with a clear mind, without getting overwhelmed. Has anybody else
> dealt with *that*?
Go slow and easy with yourself. It is far more horrible than you can
believe. The pictures had no context so they were, in and of themselves,
horrible. The context is even worse, because you now have pictures in
your head to go with the words.
I will dig up a list of books and send, at some point. In the meantime,
there are several films that I highly recommend. You might want to watch
them *with* someone else - they're incredibly upsetting:
Monsieur Klein
Man In The Glass Booth
Mephisto
They all touch on WWII - the first two specifically on the Holocaust.
sq
Salome
> Salome wrote:
>
> > I grew up in a Jewish family, and from an early age was taken to
religious
> > school at the temple every Saturday. My parents weren't especially
> > religious, but were strongly into the social and cultural sides of
Judaism,
>
>
> [schnip]
> They sent you to schul? How secular could they be?
Well, it was a "reform" temple. We didn't study Hebrew, for example. (I
think you *could* if you wanted to, but no one expected you to do it. A lot
of kids did prepare for bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah, but certainly not
everybody.) I think my parents sent me because (like breeding) that's what
people were supposed to do. Their involvement with the temple was definitely
"for the children." We were supposed to learn "what it means to be a Jew."
Boy, did we learn.
> > The adults of my parents' and grandparents' generations shared this grim
> > paranoia and utter conviction -- not only that it could happen again,
any
> > time, any place, but that we would be instantly recognized as part of
the
> > despised group.
>
>
> They weren't too far off the mark. Remember that it was not the *Jews*
> who imposed this, but the Xtians. All you have to do is look back at
> WWII. Even those who had absolutely no Jewish faith, observance, mode of
> dress, language, or even any links with Jews excepting perhaps a
> grandparent on one side - were Jews, for all intents and purposes, to
> the Nazis. And could, and would, be killed.
Exactly.
> When I was between 8 and 10 years old, my father had me read a pile of
> books about the Holocaust, and Nazi Germany. He said he was giving me
> political background for crimes against humanity, and that we should
> never forget that people could, and would, do such things to each other.
> The books were chock-full of pictures. I had nightmares for months.
I think it's important for young people to learn about the Holocaust and
Cambodia and the other atrocities people are capable of under particular
circumstances. It's important for them to learn what to watch out for, and
what to do if they see these currents rising again. But I think 8 to 10
years old is too young. You really can't understand this stuff at that age.
You need a context for it. Maybe 12 or 13 would be reasonable ages to start
teaching about these things, and it should be done carefully, so that the
students can understand rather than being confused and overwhelmed.
> > The horror that was instilled in my childhood is still with me, and it's
> > strong.
> > I wonder, has anyone else here ever experienced feelings like this?
>
>
> Yup. And I'm not Jewish. I think exposure to humanity's er, more
> revolting failings at an early age had plenty to do with it.
*nod*
> Of course, I've also lived through some pretty spectacular murder and
> bloodshed, as a sprog.
That's a whole 'nother order of experience. Having spent my life in the
comfort and safety of the Bay Area, I can only guess what that must be like.
> Go slow and easy with yourself. It is far more horrible than you can
> believe.
Thank you. I'm doing this kind of back-and-forth thing. I'll look up a book
someone recommends, think it sounds interesting, and then decide I'm not
ready to read it. I can't do more than glance at websites yet. There's no
hurry, of course. The discussion here has been immensely helpful,
enlightening, and comforting.
> I will dig up a list of books and send, at some point. In the meantime,
> there are several films that I highly recommend. You might want to watch
> them *with* someone else - they're incredibly upsetting:
>
> Monsieur Klein
> Man In The Glass Booth
> Mephisto
I can't recall whether I've seen the first two. I watched "Mephisto" years
ago. It's a great film, but yes, upsetting. How could it not be? Frankly, I
find "Cabaret" upsetting, as brilliant as it is.
Thank you for the recommendations, though. I'm filing everything away for
possible future reference.
sfw
> Frankly, I
> find "Cabaret" upsetting, as brilliant as it is
The DH saw "Cabaret" for the first time a few weeks ago.
He's American, Catholic, little experience with things Jewish. He is
interested in WWII (his Dad fought in it), but he is not easily distured
by thought of it - he sees it as history.
He found Cabaret quite disturbing.
Sarah
mroo philpott-smythe
> Oh. Maus I and Maus II by Arthur Spiegalman. (sp?)
Spiegelman. Beautiful. In a horrible sort of way.
> He won a Pulitzer
> for Maus I. It is, of all things, a long cartoon book about his
> parents' experiences in Poland before the war,during the camps, and
> into current U.S. life. For some reason, the cartoons were more
> poignant to me than any photos. Maybe because he made all the
> characters animals- the Germans were German Shepards, the Jews mice.
> Maybe because I identify so with animals, maybe because the cartoon
> format gave just enough space for imagination in a way that gruesome
> photos do not... but they were incredibly moving.
I think photos become overwhelming after a while. Cartoons are both
more, and less, horrifying.
sq
mroo philpott-smythe
> In article <d394a7d.03080...@posting.google.com>, nimue
> <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>There is no escaping that identity: it feels
>>>like part of my genetic code. Why? Because this is what I was taught.
> I think it's a true shame if one's Jewish identity is solely or
> primarily that of the hunted victim or the Holocaust. After all, there
> are also some 5,000 years of history (and so many cultural
> achievements) that are just as much a part of identity.
> Yet I know what you mean. I shuddered through the uplifting movie
> "Julia" when Jane Fonda was sneaking through Germany. I spent all of 12
> hours in Frankfurt once during a layover (went into the city and met up
> with an American friend) and felt I was jumping out of my skin over the
> sound of German everywhere, especially the airport P.A. "Achtung
> Achtung."
> What's really odd is the only Germans I know are gay men. A journalist
> friend of mine from Texas moved to Hamburg 20 years ago and has visited
> with his partner, with friends. Once he sent two friends to visit me,
> and one didn't speak English. Just hearing German in my house made me
> feel ill, and the few words I knew were from war movies. "Arbeit" (As
> in, "Ilene has to go to work tomorrowl" and "Schwien" as in, "We can
> use the leftover meat for the cassarole."
> I can never visit Ernest in Germany. We keep making ideas to have a
> friend reunion anywhere else. Greek island, Danish island off season,
> anywhere but there. And I know it's not rational.
Ye Deities, Ilene. You brought back so many strange memories for me.
No, I'm not Jewish, but I am a member of a very small minority group in
the country of my birth. The only other minority group as small as mine
was - Jewish. So most of the kids I grew up with were Jewish kids. And
we all went to Catholic school together. Where the nuns told us daily
that the Jews were the enemies of the church, because "they killed
Jesus". (While they were telling me that I would burn in hell forever
for my "pagan faith".)
Several of my friends' parents were survivors (including my ex's mother,
who lived in France from 1939 to 1945). And there was my Dad, who fought
in WWII and was absolutely obsessed by the Holocaust.
Then I came to this country, and one of the first people who befriended
me was a woman of German descent who had a very bizarre ... personality,
I guess. Really bizarre.
I broke off my friendship with her when I came to her house one day and
found a banner on her kitchen that said "Arbeit Macht Frei". She claimed
she had put it there because she wanted her teenage sprog to do chores.
Ugh.
sq
nimue
There are certain people whose eloquence, scholarly intelligence, rational
behavior, and shining intellect I admire on each ng I visit. Each ng has
one or two of such people, and I have to say, sq -- you are that person for
this ng.
--
nimue
Conservatives have distorted and demonized the word "liberal."
Liberals are those who support progressive change, humanistic values,
and opposition to authoritarianism. Conservatives try to equate
liberalism with governmental waste and tolerance of criminality, when
in fact they themselves are guilty of abuses such as corporate welfare
bail-outs and tax evasion, fraud against investors, and other
white-collar crime. Conservatives fear and oppose all change and
progress beyond "what's in it for me?"
Freedom Fighter
and now for something lighter...
J.W.T. Meakin
says...
>
> Please don't tell me that King Haile Selassi ordering all men and boys
> who could pick up a spear to do so in the face of a tank invasion isn't
> true, either.
Well, there certainly isn't any reference to it in the histories of
Ethiopia that I've read. You are probably thinking of Adowa, 1896:
"Armed with only cowhide shields and spears the Ethiopian army
shattered an invading Italian force of more than 10,000 men.
They killed or wounded 75 percent of them and capturing all
their artillery and most of their rifles."
And I'm dubious about that. The Ethiopians had rifles in 1896,
just not many of them.
Aside: Funny how things work out. The battle of Omdurman occurred
in 1898. Some Mahdists had rifles. I wonder how many of them were
Italian?
Bill.
REP
J.W.T. Meakin <jw...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> In article <bglas1$pnb2b$2...@ID-180048.news.uni-berlin.de>, r...@inanna.com
> says...
> >
> > Please don't tell me that King Haile Selassi ordering all men and boys
> > who could pick up a spear to do so in the face of a tank invasion isn't
> > true, either.
>
> Well, there certainly isn't any reference to it in the histories of
> Ethiopia that I've read. You are probably thinking of Adowa, 1896:
No, it was Ethiopians fighting off Italian tanks in WWII armed with
spears and ancient rifles (1936). I found many references to that, but I
couldn't find the speech I was thinking of.
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
IleneB
<r...@inanna.com> wrote:
> No, it was Ethiopians fighting off Italian tanks in WWII armed with
> spears and ancient rifles (1936)
There's also the story of the Polish Cavalry riding out on horseback
with standards and swords and being absolutely smashed to dust by the
Panzers.
Ilene B