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Kattz

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Nov 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/26/97
to

Shannara the ASCA archivist seems to think that the links in my
indexes are breaching NetEtiquette and violating copyright protection
because I have not first acquired the author's permission.

ASC ARCHIVIST:
I was under the impression that you did not care about my having the
indexes linking to your archive. If you do not want me to have the
indexes say so and I will drop them.

AUTHORS:
If any author does not want my index linking to your story in the
archive say so and I will drop the index because the index will not be
valid if it does not link to every story.

I have 4 indexes on my web site.
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/1278/

1. They are for the categories TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY

2. Inside each index are links to all the stories listed in the ASC
FTP Site under that category. All of them link to Aviary except for
the ones that are only at Gateway.

3. The index links are arranged in the same order as they are in the
ftp site.

4. Some of the story links have summaries that I wrote after reading
them and a rating that seemed right to me. It also has the name of the
author if one is supplied, if not, the name with the e-mail address is
used, last resort is the e-mail address itself.

5. I have added new story links as soon as possible after hearing
about uploads or seeing additions to those categories at the ftp site
so the indexes would always be up-to-date.

6. The indexes are not automated. I go to the ftp site to see if each
category has a newer date than the last time I updated the indexes. If
one does then I enter each category and save their ftp indexes to my
hard drive. Then I disconnect and start comparing the ftp indexes with
my indexes starting with the one that had a newer date and make any
necessary changes. Then I change the last updated time at the top to
the date and time it was saved on my hard drive. If I am lucky I am
able to do this and get them uploaded before morning when I am kicked
off the computer. If I am not lucky they go up the next night as soon
as GeoCities answers.

Kattz
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/1278/
Some on-site stories
I have Index pages with FTP links to Aviary stories

TMeenie

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Nov 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/29/97
to

>Shannara the ASCA archivist seems to think that the links in my
>indexes are breaching NetEtiquette and violating copyright protection
>because I have not first acquired the author's permission.

Kattz,

As I understand it, you are simply linking an index on your website to the ASC
archive. Personally, I don't have a problem with this. The ASC archive is
linked to many pages on the web. One might argue that linking the website and
individually linking the stories is different, but the result is the same, so
what difference does it make?

Beth


shanna...@koyote.com

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Nov 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/29/97
to

Some authors may not care that she carries their stories on her site without
permission, others may. Whether she links to the stories or stores them on
her hard drive, the result is the same. One should ask permission of authors
before placing their stories on your website. Most probably would not mind
at all, but just want to be asked. It's only right that you get permission
before making use of someone else's story.

---------------------------------------------------
shan...@koyote.com
Archivist
Star Trek Stories for All Ages
http://super.zippo.com/~trekfic

Lawrence Sparks

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Nov 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/29/97
to

shanna...@koyote.com wrote in article
<348022ad...@snews.zippo.com>...

> Some authors may not care that she carries their stories on her site
without
> permission, others may. Whether she links to the stories or stores them
on
> her hard drive, the result is the same. One should ask permission of
authors
> before placing their stories on your website. Most probably would not
mind
> at all, but just want to be asked. It's only right that you get
permission
> before making use of someone else's story.

As I remember this is about the stand that Macedon took on this subject.
The last I heard Alara was still locked away in that tower writing her
fingers to the bone on OH4. I had my reservations about an archive mirror
not controlled by Alara until I came to the requirements the an archive
mirror would be made to do, and decided it would be acceptable for the time
being. I do not want any of my works archived without me knowing where they
are, or without having a way to remove them if I want to

I have looked at Kattz site, and I believe she has permission for the
stories she has on site. There is also an index she is working on with file
size, ratings, and summaries she has done herself. I would not want to
discourage any volunteer willing to go to this kind of work.

This newsgroup is run by the people and I would like to suggest one
possible outcome that will satisfy both sides. If Kattz was willing to
become an official index assistant and there by earn the right to keep her
index up and running and at the same time giving summaries of stories to
Stephen. There may be some requirements but that can be decided by the
group.

I know Stephen was looking for somebody to take over the index maintainers
job and Alara showed some interest in doing it so I don't know how that
would work out. It is possible Kattz could be the next index maintainer.

Then again the group may decide all is well and good the way it is right
now.

This is only one possibility I throw out for discussion.

--
---------------
LMSparks
to reply remove the SPAM or use lmsp...@directinter.net
come see my pad at http://www.directinter.net/~lmsparks
----------

shanna...@koyote.com

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Nov 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/29/97
to

There's an idea, Kattz, maybe Stephen would like some help.
I'm sure your site is very nice, but I know for a fact you have
not gotten all the permission of ALL the authors' permission.
If you can't reach them by e-mail (address may have changed)
try posting a notice to them personally asking them to contact you.

On 29 Nov 1997 18:40:12 GMT, "Lawrence Sparks"
<lmsp...@SPAMdirectinter.net> wrote:

---------------------------------------------------

Stephen Ratliff

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Nov 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/30/97
to

shanna...@koyote.com wrote:
: There's an idea, Kattz, maybe Stephen would like some help.

: I'm sure your site is very nice, but I know for a fact you have
: not gotten all the permission of ALL the authors' permission.
: If you can't reach them by e-mail (address may have changed)
: try posting a notice to them personally asking them to contact you.
:
Actually, I've talked to Kattz. She's one of my possible replacements.
However she doesn't have some of the ablities though her ISP. Don't be
surprized however if come next spring I end up announcing her as my
replacement as Index Maintainer. (Kattz, expect an e-mail from me in
the next couple of weeks)

: >As I remember this is about the stand that Macedon took on this subject.


: >The last I heard Alara was still locked away in that tower writing her
: >fingers to the bone on OH4. I had my reservations about an archive mirror
: >not controlled by Alara until I came to the requirements the an archive
: >mirror would be made to do, and decided it would be acceptable for the time
: >being. I do not want any of my works archived without me knowing where they
: >are, or without having a way to remove them if I want to
: >
: >I have looked at Kattz site, and I believe she has permission for the
: >stories she has on site. There is also an index she is working on with file
: >size, ratings, and summaries she has done herself. I would not want to
: >discourage any volunteer willing to go to this kind of work.
: >
: >This newsgroup is run by the people and I would like to suggest one
: >possible outcome that will satisfy both sides. If Kattz was willing to
: >become an official index assistant and there by earn the right to keep her
: >index up and running and at the same time giving summaries of stories to
: >Stephen. There may be some requirements but that can be decided by the
: >group.
: >
: >I know Stephen was looking for somebody to take over the index maintainers
: >job and Alara showed some interest in doing it so I don't know how that
: >would work out. It is possible Kattz could be the next index maintainer.

Please, Please, Please, I need help.

: >
: >Then again the group may decide all is well and good the way it is right


: >now.
: >
: >This is only one possibility I throw out for discussion.

:

OK, as Index Maintainer, I have many assistants. Kattz, you've been
drafted.

Stephen, the over-worked Index Maintainer
--
Stephen Ratliff CS Major, Radford University.
srat...@runet.edu Radford, Virginia 24142-7496
rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc's polite target. Marrissa Stories Author
http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/
http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/FAQs/ FAQ Maintainer and
http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/index/ Index Maintainer for
http://aviary.share.net/~alara/ alt.startrek.creative

"Just as I was about to tell him, my science project struck."
"Your science project ran amuck on the Enterprise?"
-Rene and Marrissa Picard discussing the episode
"Diaster" in "All the King's Horses

BeverlyPic

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Nov 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/30/97
to

As an author, I understand that anything I post to the Internet is up for grabs
by anyone who wants to use it. They can post it, pick it apart and mutilate it,
put in their own changes, steal it, or print it out and hand it in as their own
paper in a high school English class.

I'mnot saying that I like that, but I know that there is no practical way for
me to stop it from happening. Authors need to accept these risks before posting
their works on the Internet.

And yes, the stealing of words can apply to printed works, as well, but it is
so much harder to steal paper than pixels, you know? Thieves here don't even
have to re-type what they steal--- Cut and paste rules the day, and it takes so
little time to lift someone's words fromthe page.

Personally, I would *never* post anything on the Net that I thought I could
sell or wanted to protect for my own personal use. It's just too easy for
others to get their hands on and play with things posted on the Internet for me
to feel as if I have any sort of control over what happens to anything posted
here. I am never surprised or offended that my work is archived all over the
Web and tucked into little sites from Maine to Moscow. That comes with the
territory.


~~~~Stephanie Berry~~~~
"Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage
done in a system where contemporary myths are owned
by corporations instead of owned by the folk."
--Henry Jenkins, director of media studies at MIT.

Mercutio

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Dec 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/2/97
to

I would like to point out that I also maintain an archive of fan
fiction (I, among hundreds unnamed, I'm sure).

As an "official" archivist for alt.fan.q, I do not ask for permission
from the authors before adding a story to the archive. While I have
removed one story upon request of the author; I do, in fact, add
stories in which the author has specifically requested that only ASC's
archive have a copy of their story. The reason I do this is because I
consider myself an official archive (I believe that I'm listed on
ASC's web page).

While I don't want to take a position on this debate either way, I
would like people to know that I am archiving all Q stories if they
did not realize that already.


---me...@europa.com---
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps
of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

LuvDS9

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Dec 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/2/97
to

merc...@europa.com wrote:
>As an "official" archivist for alt.fan.q, I do not ask for permission
>from the authors before adding a story to the archive.

That's different though. Alara and Steven don't *have* to ask the authors here
about archiving because that's their position -- archiving for this newsgroup.


>I do, in fact, add
>stories in which the author has specifically requested that only ASC's
>archive have a copy of their story. The reason I do this is because I
>consider myself an official archive (I believe that I'm listed on
>ASC's web page).

Now WAIT a minute here. Alara and Steven both have said they read the headers
and if it says Do Not Archive they *don't*. What reason would you have to be
so high-handed? alt.fan.q isn't even as large a group as a.s.c and Steven and
Alara are *still* polite and careful with author's requests. What gives you
the right to go against someone else's wishes? It's that sort of thing that
causes people to lose all respect and trust in the net.


luvDS9
"Walk with the Prophets." old Bajoran blessing
"Walk with the Profits." old Ferengi (and new Viacom/MSN) blessing

Joyce Harmon

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Dec 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/2/97
to

In article <19971202103...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, luv...@aol.com
says...

>
>merc...@europa.com wrote:
>>As an "official" archivist for alt.fan.q, I do not ask for permission
>>from the authors before adding a story to the archive.
>
>That's different though. Alara and Steven don't *have* to ask the authors
here
>about archiving because that's their position -- archiving for this
newsgroup.
>
>
>>I do, in fact, add
>>stories in which the author has specifically requested that only ASC's
>>archive have a copy of their story. The reason I do this is because I
>>consider myself an official archive (I believe that I'm listed on
>>ASC's web page).
>
>Now WAIT a minute here. Alara and Steven both have said they read the
headers
>and if it says Do Not Archive they *don't*. What reason would you have to
be
>so high-handed? alt.fan.q isn't even as large a group as a.s.c and Steven
and
>Alara are *still* polite and careful with author's requests. What gives
you
>the right to go against someone else's wishes? It's that sort of thing
that
>causes people to lose all respect and trust in the net.

I'm reading what Mercutio said differently. I think what's happening is
that he (or she? - hard to tell with noms du net) considers the Q archive a
part of the ASC archive, and archives things that say they may *only* be
archived with ASC. If the header said not to archive at *all*, that would
be a different matter, and neither ASC nor the Q archive would archive
them.

In other fandoms, I've seen that stories are not archived unless the author
says they may be archived, but with ASC, the default is to archive, and if
the author doesn't want the story archived, they must state so in the
introduction. (And this is in the FAQ and shouldn't take anyone by
surprise.) If they say it may *not* be archived at all, then nobody,
Steven, Alara, or Mercutio, archives the story. If they don't say, or if
they say it may be archived with ASC, then it will be archived, and if it's
a Q story, it will also go to the Q archive.

How about it, Mercutio? Is that the way it works?

Joyce


Chris &/or Mike

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Dec 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/2/97
to

BeverlyPic wrote:
>
> As an author, I understand that anything I post to the Internet is up for grabs
> by anyone who wants to use it. They can post it, pick it apart and mutilate it,
> put in their own changes, steal it, or print it out and hand it in as their own
> paper in a high school English class.

I've never had someone seemingly post something that used my ideas
without attribution before. It's a new experience for me. I don't think
that posting something to the internet should give others carte' blanche
to claim it as their own, nor that authors shoulds accept this. I have a
feeling, however, reading this, that it happens quite often, and I'm
merely naive, or I've been lucky up til now.

When I'm writing something new, I often don't read others' work just
because I'm afraid I'll use something they wrote unintentionally without
crediting it.

This comment has little to do with Kattz' web page, which does contain
links to one of my stories (I was curious, sue me *grin*), but does not
concern me - I mean, hey, at least our names are firmly attatched to
those stories in the archives.

> I'mnot saying that I like that, but I know that there is no practical way for
> me to stop it from happening. Authors need to accept these risks before posting
> their works on the Internet.

So I find. I agree with you, but I think it lowers the quality of the
readership and writership all the way around. I, for one, will be *much*
more careful about posting things, and I may not post some of the other
things I've been working on. This is my response to the realization of
the risk. Maybe it's a selfish one...



> And yes, the stealing of words can apply to printed works, as well, but it is
> so much harder to steal paper than pixels, you know? Thieves here don't even
> have to re-type what they steal--- Cut and paste rules the day, and it takes so
> little time to lift someone's words fromthe page.
>
> Personally, I would *never* post anything on the Net that I thought I could
> sell or wanted to protect for my own personal use. It's just too easy for
> others to get their hands on and play with things posted on the Internet for me
> to feel as if I have any sort of control over what happens to anything posted
> here. I am never surprised or offended that my work is archived all over the
> Web and tucked into little sites from Maine to Moscow. That comes with the
> territory.

It is not the commerical aspect. It's the idea that you work so *hard*
on something, and it's not appreciated, - because if your ideas are
appreciated, shouldn't that translate into respect for the author? and
doesn't it show disrespect to authors to impinge on their ideas?

I just can't believe you could work so hard on something, and then feel
like you can't post it, that it has been compromised.

a bit disoriented,

chris

Mercutio

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Dec 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/3/97
to

>That's different though. Alara and Steven don't *have* to ask the authors here
>about archiving because that's their position -- archiving for this newsgroup.

That's precisely what I was trying to say in my post, although I may
not have explained myself well. Archiving of ASC (for Q stories) and
AFQ is also my position. You will find my name in the list of Who's
Who on the ASC website, as well as my position.

>Now WAIT a minute here. Alara and Steven both have said they read the headers
>and if it says Do Not Archive they *don't*.

That's a separate issue. If a story says "Do not archive anywhere", I
delete it. I have also been asked once to remove a story from the
archive, which I did. However, what I was trying to clarify is that
if a story says, "only archive on ASC", I would still archive it, as I
consider myself to be an official part of ASC.

>What reason would you have to be
>so high-handed? alt.fan.q isn't even as large a group as a.s.c and Steven and
>Alara are *still* polite and careful with author's requests. What gives you
>the right to go against someone else's wishes? It's that sort of thing that
>causes people to lose all respect and trust in the net.

I'm not sure why I warrant name-calling. However, what I was trying
to do was notify ASC as a whole that I consider the alt.fan.q archive
to be an official part of ASC and therefore stories will be routinely
archived there as well.

My personal policy as an author is that anyone can archive my stories
or use them in any manner they see fit. My two stipulations are that
the story stay essentially intact (including my name being on it) and
that the story not used for profit. I like to know about usages of my
stories since I find such things entertaining, but it doesn't bother
me not to know. I feel that an unarchived story is the same as an
unread story, since it is unavailable for people to find and read in
the future.

I hope this clarifies my earlier post. My apologies for any
misunderstandings that may have arisen.

Mercutio

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Dec 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/3/97
to

>I'm reading what Mercutio said differently. I think what's happening is
>that he (or she? - hard to tell with noms du net) considers the Q archive a
>part of the ASC archive, and archives things that say they may *only* be
>archived with ASC. If the header said not to archive at *all*, that would
>be a different matter, and neither ASC nor the Q archive would archive
>them.

>How about it, Mercutio? Is that the way it works?

That's correct. I'm afraid I didn't make myself sufficiently clear in
my first post.

Thanks for the clarification.

JWinterCNA

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Dec 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/3/97
to

<<J groans as another thread starts to drain bandwidth>>

LINKing to web sites is NOT a violation of nettiquette. All you're doing is
pointing at something already in a public forum. To complain about links is
roughly the same as saying, "Please don't send visitors to my web site." Isn't
that like a business asking people not to send them customers?

POSTing without permission IS bad nettiquette. Forget copyright infringement.
We already tossed that out the window by playing in GR's sandbox. Still, when
you take someone else's work and go right ahead and post it on the web without
asking, then your in trouble. It may not be theft in the legal sense, but it
is still taking without asking, especially when one fails to credit the author.

See the difference? If one spent enough time trying to get rid of unwanted
links to a web site, one could conceivably have no time to maintain one's site.
It's just plain counter-productive.

Last summer, it was brought to my attention by an artist friend that someone
was copying stories off ASC's web site and reposting them on his own site.
Credit was given, but permission was not requested, and one of those stories
was mine. (Don't ask. I was using my real name back then, before I became a
superhero. <J pauses as the nurse gives him his prozac. - <G>>)

One rather well-known fanfic author was also a victim and was told, when she
requested that this party remove her work (never posted to the Net, btw), that
she was a newbie and how dare she lecture someone who was on the net since the
beginning. So I did what I do best: I publicly humiliated the offending party
on this group. In my tirade, I suggested that he change the offending page to
a list of links to those same stories. Why? Nettiquette.

(Somehow, I doubt someone maintaining a Trek site had access to the Pentagon's
network of mainframe's in 1969. Nope. Not buying it.)

Anyway, that's J's two cents. Don't spend it all in one place.

J

shanna...@koyote.com

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Dec 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/3/97
to

You misunderstood the message. She's not just maintaining a link to the
site, that's not the problem. She putting up stories on her site without
necessarily getting the permission of the authors. To get access to the
stories, she links directly to them. Actually, that's worse than carrying
them on your own hard drive and posting them. Not only are you posting
stories on the Web without permission, you're using someone else's resources
to do it.

On 3 Dec 1997 05:07:15 GMT, jwint...@aol.com (JWinterCNA) wrote:

><<J groans as another thread starts to drain bandwidth>>
>
>LINKing to web sites is NOT a violation of nettiquette. All you're doing is
>pointing at something already in a public forum. To complain about links is
>roughly the same as saying, "Please don't send visitors to my web site." Isn't
>that like a business asking people not to send them customers?
>
>POSTing without permission IS bad nettiquette. Forget copyright infringement.
>We already tossed that out the window by playing in GR's sandbox. Still, when
>you take someone else's work and go right ahead and post it on the web without
>asking, then your in trouble. It may not be theft in the legal sense, but it
>is still taking without asking, especially when one fails to credit the author.
>
>See the difference? If one spent enough time trying to get rid of unwanted
>links to a web site, one could conceivably have no time to maintain one's site.
> It's just plain counter-productive.

(snip)

shanna...@koyote.com

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Dec 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/3/97
to

Kattz, there's a solution here. Talk to Stephen and Alara about becoming an
official mirror index. Of course, that would require you to index ALL the
stories, not just some of them.

LuvDS9

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Dec 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/4/97
to

Mercutio,

sorry, sorry. *hanging head with shame*

I did misunderstand you and you're right, I shouldn't take out a
caffeine-deprivation headACHE out on anyone. :}

Kattz

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Dec 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/4/97
to

On Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:54:47 GMT, shanna...@koyote.com wrote:

>Kattz, there's a solution here. Talk to Stephen and Alara about becoming an
>official mirror index. Of course, that would require you to index ALL the
>stories, not just some of them.
>---------------------------------------------------

I don't have space for all those indexes or the money to buy the
space. If somebody with money would like to buy the necessary space at
GeoCities and make it possible for me to do a direct upload with the
GeoCities FileManager I would be happy to help update the indexes by
hand with Windows Notepad.

If the archivist informed me of any new storylinks and their location
it would be a simple matter of inserting it into the existing html.
Otherwise I would have to do a slow comparision of index and ftp site.

The much slower and more roundabout way would be for me to e-mail it
to somebody who hopefully would upload it as soon as it is received.

Stephen Ratliff

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Dec 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/4/97
to

shanna...@koyote.com wrote:
: Kattz, there's a solution here. Talk to Stephen and Alara about becoming an
: official mirror index. Of course, that would require you to index ALL the
: stories, not just some of them.

I've been talking with Kattz. While she doesn't have the space to index
all of the stories, She's still quite useful. As of five minutes ago,
she became 'Index Summary Editor' and her site became 'The FTP Index
Experment (excuss the spelling, ispell is down again) She'll be
getting data on the various design preferances and exprementing with
features. I'll explain more in this week's FAQ Maintainer's Notes.

Stephen, Index Maintainer

shanna...@koyote.com

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Dec 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/4/97
to

I believe Tripod offers at least twice the free space that Geocities does.
It would probably accomodate the index, since you're not storing the actual
stories and just linking. How much web space do you get with your ISP
account?

On Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:13:49 GMT, ka...@geocities.com (Kattz) wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:54:47 GMT, shanna...@koyote.com wrote:
>
>>Kattz, there's a solution here. Talk to Stephen and Alara about becoming an
>>official mirror index. Of course, that would require you to index ALL the
>>stories, not just some of them.

>>---------------------------------------------------
>
>I don't have space for all those indexes or the money to buy the
>space. If somebody with money would like to buy the necessary space at
>GeoCities and make it possible for me to do a direct upload with the
>GeoCities FileManager I would be happy to help update the indexes by
>hand with Windows Notepad.
>
>If the archivist informed me of any new storylinks and their location
>it would be a simple matter of inserting it into the existing html.
>Otherwise I would have to do a slow comparision of index and ftp site.
>
>The much slower and more roundabout way would be for me to e-mail it
>to somebody who hopefully would upload it as soon as it is received.
>
>Kattz
>http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/1278/
>Some on-site stories
>I have Index pages with FTP links to Aviary stories

---------------------------------------------------

Alara Rogers

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
to

In message <348499...@pacbell.net> - Chris &/or Mike <fa...@pacbell.net>
writes:

>
>BeverlyPic wrote:
>>
>> As an author, I understand that anything I post to the Internet is up for grabs
>> by anyone who wants to use it. They can post it, pick it apart and mutilate it,
>> put in their own changes, steal it, or print it out and hand it in as their own
>> paper in a high school English class.
>
>I've never had someone seemingly post something that used my ideas
>without attribution before. It's a new experience for me. I don't think
>that posting something to the internet should give others carte' blanche
>to claim it as their own, nor that authors shoulds accept this. I have a
>feeling, however, reading this, that it happens quite often, and I'm
>merely naive, or I've been lucky up til now.

Chris, I think that you, like many, many people, are being taken in by an
anecdote of one or two occurrences that have now circulated through fandom and
terrorize the populace.

I have *never* heard of anyone actually posting a story to the net which was
someone else's, but their name was on it. As far as newsgroups posts go, I
don't think it would be possible. I mean, if someone really liked my "Only
Human" and plagiarized it and posted it here... I'd notice, I think. I think a
lot of people would.

It is theoretically possible to put stuff up on your webpage that's other
people's work with your name on it. The way for you, the author, to prevent
this is to be archived with your correct name as many places as possible.
Let's face it, what gets more hits? The ASC Archive, or "my kewl home page" by
Fanfi...@aol.com? If your stuff has been posted to asc, and it's on your
own home page, and a bunch of other people have archived it with your correct
info on it, what are the odds that anyone will be *able* to plagiarize you?

What *has* happened (each case 1 incident) is the following:

1. An incident occurred where a person (a current asc netizen, so I won't name
names) rewrote another person's (again, a current asc netizen) story to remove
the sex. The author was irate, and demanded that the rewriter remove the
butchered story from hes web site. The rewriter did so.

2. An incident occurred where a person posted a story to the net, and then saw
that story turn up *in a fanzine* under another author's name.

3. I have heard rumors of zines being scanned and posted to the net. I believe
it (it's very in keeping with net "everything must be free" philosophy.)

4. A young man once suggested on alt.sex.fetish.startrek that he would like to
download the asfs archive and publish it in a fanzine. This terrorized people
so much that we permanently lost several authors from the archive. The young
man drpped out of sight entirely and never clarified himself.

In no case was the author adversely affected because s/he had stuff on
multiple archives. The zine plagiarism case could have happened based on a
single newsgroup post. Likewise, the proposed download and fanzine sale could
have been pulled off newsgroups. The rewriting was just plain crass, but
having the correct version on multiple archives would have led the culprit to
be found out sooner if the rewriter was not good enough to remove the
butchered story after s/he had been found out. And obviously, scanning zines
to the net doesn't really relate to our issue at all.

I hear a lot of hysteria about how easy it is to change another person's work
on the net. It's true-- technically, it *is* easy. But almost no one actually
does this. And the cure for it is to be as publicly known under the correct
information as possible-- in other words, pulling your stories off archives is
asking for trouble, because then if someone who already has your story decides
to plagiarize it, there's no way the general populace will know-- only those
people who have actually read your story would recognize it, and archiving
increases your readership. The more archives you are on, the better the chance
that if someone *does* plagiarize you-- and that can happen even if you only
post the thing once-- the reader will go, "Hey, I saw this already on R'rain's
slash archive."

>So I find. I agree with you, but I think it lowers the quality of the
>readership and writership all the way around. I, for one, will be *much*
>more careful about posting things, and I may not post some of the other
>things I've been working on. This is my response to the realization of
>the risk. Maybe it's a selfish one...

Where will you release these stories? To fanzines, where only those who have
money can buy them, and where if you are plagiarized it's much harder to tell
(far fewer people read all the fanzines available than read all the netfic
available-- it's just a matter of cost.)

By all means, recognize the risk. But recognize that it's really, really
small. The far bigger risk is if you post something you intend for pro
publication, because posting to the net counts as first publication, and if
you can't sell them first publication they won't talk to you.



>It is not the commerical aspect. It's the idea that you work so *hard*
>on something, and it's not appreciated, - because if your ideas are
>appreciated, shouldn't that translate into respect for the author? and
>doesn't it show disrespect to authors to impinge on their ideas?

Depends. When Mercutio wrote "PropinQuity chp. 1" and emailed it to me, I
didn't see her borrowing my universe and my background as an impingement at
all. I was flattered, and happy, and I begged and cajoled her to write more.

We are all plagiarists. We're fanfic writers. We steal other people's
characters and other people's ideas and do things the original writers would
never imagine doing. How can we be offended if someone does the same to us?

Now, there's a big difference between writing a story based in X's universe,
and stealing X's story, putting your own name on it and posting it. But the
second happens really, really rarely. I'm active in many fandoms, and I've
heard a rumor or two about this, but nothing to justify the level of fear
people seem to feel.

>I just can't believe you could work so hard on something, and then feel
>like you can't post it, that it has been compromised.

If you can't post it, it's dead. A story with no audience is a dead story. You
can put it in a fanzine instead, but recognize that I've heard just as many
stories about fanzine plagiarism as net plagiarism (and recall that in zines,
there's money involved... your story could be sold by zine pirates for a
profit.)


--
Alara Rogers
arch...@mindspring.com
Star Trek Fan Fiction Archivist
The Fan Fiction Archive is located at
http://aviary.share.net/~alara.


Alara Rogers

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
to

In message <34856a43...@snews.zippo.com> - shanna...@koyote.com
writes:

>
>You misunderstood the message. She's not just maintaining a link to the
>site, that's not the problem. She putting up stories on her site without
>necessarily getting the permission of the authors. To get access to the
>stories, she links directly to them. Actually, that's worse than carrying
>them on your own hard drive and posting them. Not only are you posting
>stories on the Web without permission, you're using someone else's resources
>to do it.

No, she isn't. If she is linking to the Star Trek archive, then if someone
tells me "pull my story off the site" and I do, her link no longer works. If
she was maintaining her own copy, the author's request to have the story
pulled would not be honored, because the author wouldn't know s/he also had to
write Kattz.

Folks, this is a non-issue. If you maintain a set of links to other people's
works *that are available on the web*, it is *not* the same thing as putting
something on your own site. All material at the ASC archive is intended for
people to read. Period. It doesn't matter if they read it because they clicked
on a hypertext link from Stephen's index site, or they read it because they
clicked on a hypertext link from Kattz's site. The physical story, the file,
is sitting out there on a public domain server waiting to be linked to. That
is what the net is all *about*, folks.

It is *polite* to tell a person you are linking their story. That way if they
want to change their email address, or something, they can write you.
Howwever, *there is no infringement* when one *links* to a story that is
available on the Net.

As for using the resources of others-- yes, Kattz is. She is increasing hits
to asc's archive by linking to individual stories on it. So, before she did
this, she asked me permission to do this, and I had no objection. Therefore,
other people's resources is not an issue. She has permission to use the
resources.

The only place that might be an issue is that she does not have permission to
create the link. So let me ask you. Creating a link is basically just a way of
saying to your web browser "here's where to find the story." Would Kattz be
out of line to post detailed ftp instructions on how to get the stories? What
if she listed all the stories and then said "this is the site to get them at?"
How would that be any different at all from making hyperlinks, except that it
would make it easier on the people browsing?

Folks, THE INTERNET IS A PUBLIC RESOURCE. Anything on the internet is
*PUBLISHED.* You have no more right to say "You can't link to my story" than
you have to say "You can't tell people what book to buy my story in!" Now, you
do have the right to tell anyone that they can't *publish* your story-- they
cannot have a local copy of it at their site, they can only link to it at a
remote site. But you have no right to tell them they can't *link* to it. Jeez!

Kattz

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
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On Thu, 04 Dec 1997 20:13:32 GMT, shanna...@koyote.com wrote:

>I believe Tripod offers at least twice the free space that Geocities does.
>It would probably accomodate the index, since you're not storing the actual
>stories and just linking. How much web space do you get with your ISP
>account?

Zero unless you pay for it. That's why I'm at GeoCities.

If anybody should drop by the index page at my site and scroll down
they will see the revised version of Lawrence Sparks "Spots Christmas
Eve"

Does anybody know how uploading at Tripod works?

OdoGoddess

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
to

alara wrote:
>Folks, this is a non-issue. If you maintain a set of links to other people's
>works *that are available on the web*, it is *not* the same thing as putting
>something on your own site. All material at the ASC archive is intended for
>people to read. Period. It doesn't matter if they read it because they
>clicked
>on a hypertext link from Stephen's index site, or they read it because they
>clicked on a hypertext link from Kattz's site.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. It matters very much, Alara. If your own
work was linked to from JoeFan's site, on his page of "The Absolute Worst Trek
Fanfic on the Net" -- without him having asked you first if he could display
your work and in that fashion, would you appreciate it? Would you ask him to
remove it? Would you come here to A.S.C. and post about this transgression,
possibly even complain? If you did, should I then tell you that it was a
non-issue and to shut up about it? I don't think so. The problem isn't a new
site being set up. The problem is someone not having the courtesy to ask
someone if they can display the work (it's *their* work, after all) on a new
site. And having the decency to respect a writer's wishes if they say "no"
they don't want their work displayed in that way or on that site.

> The physical story, the file,
>is sitting out there on a public domain server waiting to be linked to. That
>is what the net is all *about*, folks.
>
>It is *polite* to tell a person you are linking their story. That way if they
>want to change their email address, or something, they can write you.
>Howwever, *there is no infringement* when one *links* to a story that is
>available on the Net.

I am not the only author here that adds disclaimers and headers to their work
with the hope (if not the complete assurance) that those wishes will be
respected. I don't mind my work being displayed on the archive. But if
someone wants to display or archive it on their site, they should have the
courtesy to ask. I know I am not the only one who feels this way. And yes, I
know a few pro writers who don't wish their books displayed in certain venue's.
IMO, a writer *does* have the right to make such distinctions, be it on or off
the net.

The net may be free (like the old west) but it shouldn't be lawless. It is
that same attitude of 'it's here and it's free, let's just take it and use it
any way we like' that causes so much bad feeling, misunderstandings and flame
wars.

>As for using the resources of others-- yes, Kattz is. She is increasing hits
>to asc's archive by linking to individual stories on it. So, before she did
>this, she asked me permission to do this, and I had no objection. Therefore,
>other people's resources is not an issue. She has permission to use the
>resources.

I disagree. IMO, if she or anyone else wishes to link to a story, then she or
they should ask. Preferably politely. In any case, I certainly hope she uses
more courtesy in future toward the authors she is hoping to be working for on
ASC. Her attitude and her commentary, both private and on the newsgroup over
this issue has been entirely too lackadaisical, verging on offensive. I wrote
her with legitimate concerns and she responded with a public attack and a rude,
private e-mail. Even when Stephen was being flamed by that one offensive
individual over his identity and stories, he maintained his civility on ASC.
This entire incident has given me and those author's who feel they have the
right to say where and how their work is to be displayed, grave misgivings. If
that is the sort of person who is to be Stephen's replacement here on ASC, then
I for one, would have to seriously consider whether I should post any further
material here in future and even whether or not I should remove the work
already posted.

(-|-)* Judith
co-moderator of RAFL - the ReneAFanList
"We aren't everybody's cup of tea." Rene Auberjonois, TV Guide
~~~~~~http://members.aol.com/OdoGoddess/Tales.html~~~~~~

"I'd like to get my hands on that fellow Earl Grey, and tell him a thing or two
about tea leaves." Garak, In Purgatory's Shadow

shanna...@koyote.com

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
to

Go to http://www.tripod.com and find out.

---------------------------------------------------

shan...@koyote.com

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
to

Copyrights 101

There is no question that posting on the net constitutes publication.
Taking another person's story and posting it on your website without
permission is the same as if you took someone's story and put it in a
fanzine without permission. It's a technical violation of copyright, not
that there's a lot anyone could do about it, except complain.

Just because you post something on the Net does not mean you relinquish
ownership. For example, Paramount posts Trek things on their MSN site and
they are quick to scream and holler "copyright violation" if someone takes
that material and uses it on another website. Just because Paramount put it
up on the Net and it's easy to grab and use, does not mean they have
relinquished ownership of the material or their rights to say what is done
with it. The same goes for a fan who writes a story. Whether it appears on
the Net or in a fanzine, it still belongs to the author who has a say on
what is done with it. Even Paramount could not come and grab the story and
publish it without permission of the author. It would be a violation of
copyrights. They may own Trek, but they don't own creative works dealing
with it (unless they have bought them), although they technically can say
what is done with the intellectual property they own.

I am an official archivist for ASCA. All stories posted on ASCA are subject
to archiving and that is clear, unless the individual requests no archiving.
I would never go and grab someone else's story somewhere else on the Net and
post it on ASCA or put it in the archive without the permission of the
author. That would not be right.

>In message <34856a43...@snews.zippo.com> - shanna...@koyote.com
>writes:
>>
>>You misunderstood the message. She's not just maintaining a link to the
>>site, that's not the problem. She putting up stories on her site without
>>necessarily getting the permission of the authors. To get access to the
>>stories, she links directly to them. Actually, that's worse than carrying
>>them on your own hard drive and posting them. Not only are you posting
>>stories on the Web without permission, you're using someone else's resources
>>to do it.
>

Ok, she has your permission to link, Alara, but she doesn't have all the
authors' permission to use their stories. Granted, it appears her site may
become an official mirror (once she gets around to indexing the archive
entirely) with the blessing of the directors of ASC, at which point this
discussion will be moot.

Just because something is easy to take without permission, doesn't mean you
should. You don't go and shoplift something you like just because it's easy
to do so and you don't think you'll get caught, or there will be no
repercussions.


>No, she isn't. If she is linking to the Star Trek archive, then if someone
>tells me "pull my story off the site" and I do, her link no longer works. If
>she was maintaining her own copy, the author's request to have the story
>pulled would not be honored, because the author wouldn't know s/he also had to
>write Kattz.
>

>Folks, this is a non-issue. If you maintain a set of links to other people's
>works *that are available on the web*, it is *not* the same thing as putting
>something on your own site. All material at the ASC archive is intended for
>people to read. Period. It doesn't matter if they read it because they clicked
>on a hypertext link from Stephen's index site, or they read it because they

>clicked on a hypertext link from Kattz's site. The physical story, the file,


>is sitting out there on a public domain server waiting to be linked to. That
>is what the net is all *about*, folks.
>
>It is *polite* to tell a person you are linking their story. That way if they
>want to change their email address, or something, they can write you.
>Howwever, *there is no infringement* when one *links* to a story that is
>available on the Net.
>

>As for using the resources of others-- yes, Kattz is. She is increasing hits
>to asc's archive by linking to individual stories on it. So, before she did
>this, she asked me permission to do this, and I had no objection. Therefore,
>other people's resources is not an issue. She has permission to use the
>resources.
>

>The only place that might be an issue is that she does not have permission to
>create the link. So let me ask you. Creating a link is basically just a way of
>saying to your web browser "here's where to find the story." Would Kattz be
>out of line to post detailed ftp instructions on how to get the stories? What
>if she listed all the stories and then said "this is the site to get them at?"
>How would that be any different at all from making hyperlinks, except that it
>would make it easier on the people browsing?
>
>Folks, THE INTERNET IS A PUBLIC RESOURCE. Anything on the internet is
>*PUBLISHED.* You have no more right to say "You can't link to my story" than
>you have to say "You can't tell people what book to buy my story in!" Now, you
>do have the right to tell anyone that they can't *publish* your story-- they
>cannot have a local copy of it at their site, they can only link to it at a
>remote site. But you have no right to tell them they can't *link* to it. Jeez!

---------------------------------------------------

Aleph Press

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
to

OdoGoddess (odogo...@aol.com) wrote:
: alara wrote:
: >Folks, this is a non-issue. If you maintain a set of links to other people's

: >works *that are available on the web*, it is *not* the same thing as putting
: >something on your own site. All material at the ASC archive is intended for
: >people to read. Period. It doesn't matter if they read it because they
: >clicked
: >on a hypertext link from Stephen's index site, or they read it because they
: >clicked on a hypertext link from Kattz's site.

: I couldn't possibly disagree more. It matters very much, Alara. If your own


: work was linked to from JoeFan's site, on his page of "The Absolute Worst Trek
: Fanfic on the Net" -- without him having asked you first if he could display
: your work and in that fashion, would you appreciate it? Would you ask him to
: remove it?

I would not appreciate it. But I wouldn't ask him to remove it. A
hypertext link is essentially an automated bibliography. If he copied the
story and put it on his own site, I would object. But if all he did was
link to it on my site, this is morally equivalent to him posting a really
bad review of my one published story and saying where you can buy the
book it's in.

Would you come here to A.S.C. and post about this transgression,
: possibly even complain?

No. Why would I bother? I don't want to advertise that someone thinks my
story is one of the worst on the net. I don't want to increase his hit
rate. But if I did post about it, I would make fun of the guy, not say
"He has no right to do this!" He has every right. Is what he's doing
rude? Probably. Is it morally wrong? No.

Frankly, I *have* a page dedicated to the worst fanfic on the net of a
particular genre. And I do not include direct hypertext links to the
stories, because the fandom this is in has a long-standing tradition of
always asking permission, and I doubt very much I could get permission to
list these people's stories as the worst I've ever seen in this genre. So
I have links to a generic index which gives links to the homepages that
have these stories on them. I, personally, see no moral difference
whatsoever between doing this and between linking directly to the
stories. I'm giving you, the human browsing, instructions on how to reach
the story I say is really bad. How is that different from giving your
computer instructions on how to reach the story directly? But, I did it
that way because I know there are people who feel the way you do, and I
am trying to be as polite as I can be within the parameters of "publicly
humiliating people who write abysmally bad stories."

If you did, should I then tell you that it was a
: non-issue and to shut up about it?

If I posted here and whined, "Someone hates my story and he linked to it
on a list of the worst fanfic on the net and he won't take the link off,
waah!".... yeah, you'd have every right to tell me it was a non-issue, so
shut up. It isn't *nice* to create such a link, but it's not a violation
of the author's rights because it's not a publication.

Think about it. If he *listed* your story as one of the world's worst
fanfic stories, would that be a violation of your rights? No. He has the
right to his opinion. How about if he listed it, and said what page it
was available at? Would that be a violation of your rights? No, any more
than giving the publication information for a novel you're giving a bad
review is. So how is creating a link any different? If you were so deeply
offended that you wanted to remove the story from the net, you still
could. Then his link would be broken.

I don't think so. The problem isn't a new
: site being set up. The problem is someone not having the courtesy to ask
: someone if they can display the work (it's *their* work, after all) on a new
: site. And having the decency to respect a writer's wishes if they say "no"
: they don't want their work displayed in that way or on that site.

But if you put a link to a story on your site, you are not displaying it
on your site. You're providing a computer protocol with which the viewer
can reach the story themselves. Having it up on a local site under your
control would be displaying it on your own site.

: I am not the only author here that adds disclaimers and headers to their work


: with the hope (if not the complete assurance) that those wishes will be
: respected. I don't mind my work being displayed on the archive. But if
: someone wants to display or archive it on their site, they should have the
: courtesy to ask. I know I am not the only one who feels this way. And yes, I
: know a few pro writers who don't wish their books displayed in certain venue's.
: IMO, a writer *does* have the right to make such distinctions, be it on or off
: the net.

I don't think a pro writer has the right to ask their book not be
displayed a certain way. If I, a paying customer who owns a porn shop,
buy 400 copies of Writer X's novel and put it in my porn shop, and Writer
X complains because his work is not porn, what's he gonna do? I bought
the books fair and square from his publisher. He has not control anymore.

Yes, it is polite to ask. It is courteous to ask. Anyone who doesn't is
fuckin' rude. But they are not morally wrong. I have the *right* to flame
people and call them all kinds of nasty names, but I ain't gonna win any
friends doing so.

You are confusing "moral right" with "common courtesy." They are not the
same thing.

: The net may be free (like the old west) but it shouldn't be lawless. It is


: that same attitude of 'it's here and it's free, let's just take it and use it
: any way we like' that causes so much bad feeling, misunderstandings and flame
: wars.

Again, I agree that courtesy is a good thing and should be used. But no
one is under any moral obligation to ask your permission before linking
you, any more than they are under the moral obligation not to post "Your
story SUCKS!" in response to your precious work that you worked so hard
on. Are they rude? Hell yeah! Are they morally wrong? No. They ahve the
right to express their opinion. And you have the right to killfile them,
badmouth them in public, and call them jerks.

: I disagree. IMO, if she or anyone else wishes to link to a story, then she or


: they should ask. Preferably politely. In any case, I certainly hope she uses
: more courtesy in future toward the authors she is hoping to be working for on
: ASC. Her attitude and her commentary, both private and on the newsgroup over
: this issue has been entirely too lackadaisical, verging on offensive. I wrote
: her with legitimate concerns and she responded with a public attack and a rude,
: private e-mail.

This is a different issue and one I agree with. Kattz is a rude person.
She has consistently treated others with a lack of respect, from
suggesting that erotica writers butcher their stories to remove the sex
just because she doesn't like it, to flaming me for not getting back to
her in a timely fashion (like I get back to *anyone* in a timely fashion,
right?) And if she keeps it up, she will have no friends, no one will
ever read her stories, and no one will pay any attention to her at all,
because even though she is clearly willing to work for the sake of the
group, and that's a very important attribute, she has a major atttitude.
I'm not denying in the slightest that it was rude of Kattz to put up her
site without asking permission of the authors (at least those that she
could get hold of.) But she is not *wrong* to do so. That is, she is not
violating anyone's rights, she is only violating common courtesy. Which
is bad, but not wrong.

Even when Stephen was being flamed by that one offensive
: individual over his identity and stories, he maintained his civility on ASC.
: This entire incident has given me and those author's who feel they have the
: right to say where and how their work is to be displayed, grave misgivings. If
: that is the sort of person who is to be Stephen's replacement here on ASC, then
: I for one, would have to seriously consider whether I should post any further
: material here in future and even whether or not I should remove the work
: already posted.

We get what we can get. The work involved in being Index maintainer is
grueling. If a person with all the tact and compassion of a charging
rhinoceros volunteers for the job, and all the kind, compassionate and
careful people sit on their butts, then that's what we get. If you don't
like the Index maintainer's attitude, offer to take over the job
yourself. (This is, mind you, how I keep getting sucked into doing things
like the archive... you go, "If I don't, who will?" And then nobody comes
forward, so you stupidly charge into the breach. :-))

I am not apologizing for Kattz. I don't like her. She is rude to me and
she's done something I find amazingly offensive (not this business with
the index thing, she's done something I consider a hell of a lot worse.)
But none of that changes the fact that:

1. she has every right to put up links to anyone's stories, although
common courtesy would recommend that she ask

2. she has volunteered to take over a difficult and often thankless task

3. she tries to perform a positive service to the group, even if she has
all the tact of a barracuda when she does it

4. anyone who doesn't like her attitude and doesn't want her as Index
maintainer is free to say, "Hey, Stephen, I'll do it! Yes, I'll put in
hours and hours of my free time to help this group"

Anyway, that is my feeling on the subject.

--
-- Conservatives should learn the difference between a sin and a crime,
and liberals should learn the difference between a virtue and a requirement.

--First they came for the fourth amendment, but I said nothing because I
wasn't a drug dealer. Then they came for the sixth amendment, but I kept
quiet because I wasn't guilty. Finally they came for the first amendment,
and by then it was too late to say anything at all.

(Both quotes above from Nancy Lebovitz buttons, at
http://www.io.com/~francis/Buttons.txt.)

-- Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@netcom.com

All Aleph Press stories are at http://www.mindspring.com/~alara/ajer.

Ruth Gifford

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
to

On 5 Dec 1997 13:17:20 GMT, OdoGoddess wrote:

on the subject of linking and archiving:

<<I couldn't possibly disagree more. It matters very much, Alara. If your
own work was linked to from JoeFan's site, on his page of "The Absolute Worst
Trek Fanfic on the Net" -- without him having asked you first if he could
display your work and in that fashion, would you appreciate it? Would you

ask him to remove it? Would you come here to A.S.C. and post about this
transgression, possibly even complain? If you did, should I then tell you
that it was a non-issue and to shut up about it? I don't think so.>>

I'm about to disagree with someone I respect (sorry Judith). Let me explain:
This *does* happen. There is a site called the Slash Hall of Shame. It's
run by one person and in it she puts up a "Hall of Shame Story of the Week"
(sometimes she chooses them, some time she takes recommendations) as well as
her own rants about bad slash writing Note I say "bad slash writing." This
is not a site that condemns slash in general, but a site that condemns what
its owner (a slash fan) thinks of as bad slash. The site owner has a
guestbook where she asks people to disagree or agree with her choices and/or
her rants and she posts all of the contents of that guestbook, including the
people who attack her site. Now she doesn't archive the works of fiction,
but the stories are all stuff that is available for general 'net consumption
and can be found on the fandom archives.

If all you write is TrekSmut and all your friends write is TrekSmut, you may
have never heard of this site, because its owner has three fandoms she won't
touch: Xena (to paraphrase: because bad Xena is better than no Xena), Babylon
5 and all versions of Star Trek (because she doesn't watch those shows and
therefore can't judge things like bad characterizations).

More than once SENAD (the Sentinel mailing list; I'm not on it but a friend
is) has erupted into controversy because of this site. People claim it's
mean-spirited and get all upset because of its negativity. And maybe the
concept *is* mean-spirited (please note I'm not defending this site, merely
saying that it exists), but how is it different than a bad review of a
published work? Are we amateurs all so delicate that we can't take an
opinion? Writers open themselves up to criticism every time they share their
writing. Would JoeFan's "Worst Trek Fic on the 'Net" be any meaner than the
MiSTing of Stephen's Marissa stories? Would it be any worse than the
comments my predecessor as the TrekSmut ng FAQ Maintainer made about my
first story back in the days of alt.sex.fetish.startrek? I dare say that if
a story of Alara's was posted to such a site, she'd be hurt and upset, just
as I imagine Stephen is when people make fun of his work and I was when a
rather famous Trek fan told me my characterization of Picard was off. But
I'll bet that Alara would still write, the same way Stephen and I still
write. And I bet a large number of people would tell her that JoeFan was
wrong and write to him as well and say so.

We either communicate and we make ourselves vulnerable to others, or we don't
communicate and never learn that many like what we have to say. Writing is
creation and exhibitionism; we hang a piece of ourselves on the wall and then
wait to see what happens. Like any form of art, writing can be
misinterpreted, misrepresented, plagiarized, or mocked. We can protect
ourselves in two ways. We can remain silent, or we can write the very best
story we have in us and let our words stand up for us. Negative feedback
*hurts,* and one negative bit of feedback can make a writer forget all the
positive feedback for the same story (there's story that's been in the Slash
Hall of Shame *and* has received a glowing review on the Slash Revolution
International site). And maybe if the negative feedback is actually done
well, we can learn from it. When Alara was voting/commenting on my story "My
Fair Jeanne" during the '95 ASC awards, she pointed out a big flaw in the
story. That was tough for me to deal with; I respect Alara as a writer and a
person and I consider her a friend. But the hardest thing for me to deal
with was that she was *right,* part of that story was rushed. I learned from
her comments and the fact that she praised other parts of the story helped
salvage my ego.


Ruth


Ruth Gifford

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
to

About intellectual proprty and the 'net:

I happen to know of one instance where a story was actually posted to another
newsgrpoup without the author's permission. How do I know this?

Well, it happened to me. I was doing a DejaNews search and discovered that
"My Fair Jeanne" (for those that don't know it, it's a TrekSmut story in
which Q turns Picard into a woman) had been posted to alt.sex.stories.tg
(which stands for trans-gendered). At least the person who posted it did
have the grace to leave my disclaimer intact. When I wrote a note explaining
that maybe, just maybe, asking my permission wouldn't have been a bad thing,
I got a rather snippy note back going on about the "freedom of speech on the
net thing." The real kicker was that, of all my stories, it's the one that
I'd rather not have all over the place because Alara is putting it in her
Q-smut 'zine and I've generally tried to avoid reposting it for that reason.

So I thought long and hard about my options vis a vis my TrekSmut. I could
have gone over to 'zines and stop posting my stuff to the net, but I owe a
lot to 'net fanfic, and I want my stories to be read. So I decided that it
didn't matter; that although this instance annoyed me, there wasn't a damned
thing I could do about it and I let it be.

Now, since then, I have discovered that I'm in a number of Trek archives,
none of whose owners have asked for my permission before archiving me. Of
course I rarely put archiving instructions on my stories, so should I be
angry? I'm not, in fact I'm rather flattered. My one J/C is posted in the J
et C archive, at least three of my P/C stories are available through the BONC
archive, a couple of my Q stories are in Vash's Q archive and all (or at
least most) of my slash is in R'rain's Trek slash archive. None of them
asked permission, and I'm *not* upset. Why? Because I didn't say not to,
and these people are all part of the community and I have no doubt that if I
asked, those stories would be removed from those archives. And if they
weren't? I'd be annoyed and I might post my indignation to the ng, but there
wouldn't be anything I could do about it.

In the end, it comes down to this. Expect that when you post to the net your
stories are now out of your control (just as if you'd had them published).
Hope that people will have the common courtesy to ask when they archive your
work or link to an archive that contains your work. Be angry when you don't
get that courtesy. But remember, you posted it and now it's gone.

Ruth


--
***************************************************
* Ruth | Visit GiffStein Productions *
* Gifford | http://www.cyberg8t.com/ereshkgl/ *
*-------------------------------------------------*
* alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated *
* Resistance is possible, but why bother? *
*-------------------------------------------------*
* Better living thru TrekSmut--See for Yourself! *
* http://www.capital.net/users/rjs1/asce *
***************************************************

"For your most festive outings this season, make a
shining impression dressed in a sheath of sparkling
acetate/Lurex. The ribbed fit is fabulous, with a
tapered bottom."

The ad copy for a "Sparkling Turtleneck" in the
International Male catalog.


shan...@koyote.com

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

A link to a site is a reference. A link to an item on another site, whether
it be graphical or text is not. Putting a story up on your site, however you
obtain it, is publication.

Here's a site where a lawyer discusses the copyright implications of
linking.
http://www.social.com/cgi-bin/online-news/social/hypermail/news/online_news/May_11_May_17_1997/0039.html


It does not address exactly the problem, but I believe one can extrapolate
that such linking as Kattz is doing, when done without permission can well
be considered a copyright violation. This is in the courts right now.
Ticketmaster is suing Microsoft over linking to internal pages in its site.

I DO know the technical difference between linking and carrying a story on
your hard drive and posting it. I link, as well as carrying stories on my
site itself, but only when I have the permission of the author and
archivist.

And I must reiterate that I know Kattz meant no harm. She's new to the Net.
It's like a very young child that steals a piece of candy from a store. The
child, until it is taught differently, does not know what it is doing is
wrong.

On Sat, 06 Dec 1997 01:45:45 GMT, al...@netcom.com wrote:

>To: Asca
>From: al...@netcom.com
>Date sent: 5 Dec 97 14:26:42 -0500
>Subject: Re: Copyrights 101 (was Re: What to expect when po
>
>
>shan...@koyote.com wrote:
>: Copyrights 101


>
>: There is no question that posting on the net constitutes publication.
>: Taking another person's story and posting it on your website without
>: permission is the same as if you took someone's story and put it in a
>: fanzine without permission. It's a technical violation of copyright, not
>: that there's a lot anyone could do about it, except complain.
>

>No, there's no question at all. Posting on the net constitutes
>publication. But what consitutes "posting on the net?"
>
>If I grab a graphic off Paramount's site, and I put it on my own site,
>that's a violation of their copyright. However, if I create a hypertext
>link to a document *on their site*, that is *not* a violation. I have
>*not* published their material. I have created a *link* to it. A link is
>a reference.
(snip)

Kattz

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

On 5 Dec 1997 13:17:20 GMT, odogo...@aol.com (OdoGoddess) wrote:

>I disagree. IMO, if she or anyone else wishes to link to a story, then she or
>they should ask. Preferably politely.

If the stories were on a private web site I would ask.
They are not.
The stories were posted to the newsgroup in hopes they would be read.
The archive was created and I assume paid for by the archivist so
there would be a public library of the posted stories. Each author let
their story be archived so they would have a place to send potential
readers.

The links in my indexes give readers the ability to ask the library to
send them a story so they don't have to go fetch it themselves.
Sort of like getting them with a newsreader except they get it all at
once instead of in pieces. Oh, my, gosh! We're turning into a world
of lazy readers.

The archivist has no objections to my linking to the archive.
The readers want their stuff read.
My indexes now have experimental status.
OdoGoddess:
You're going to hate it but I'm reattaching the links.
I do have some good news for you. Because of space limitations I will
not be Stephen Ratliff's replacement. Here's another piece of good
news for you. I only have links to 2 of your stories. Now you and the
other authors will have to decide whether they want to stay in a
public access library or confine themselves to a place only visited by
Odo (and possibly Kira) lovers.

>In any case, I certainly hope she uses
>more courtesy in future toward the authors she is hoping to be working for on
>ASC. Her attitude and her commentary, both private and on the newsgroup over
>this issue has been entirely too lackadaisical, verging on offensive.

Just my laid-back personality.
Slow to anger.
Enjoy verbal sparring.
Blame it on my father. I got it from him.
My mother frequently gets headaches from it.


> I wrote
>her with legitimate concerns and she responded with a public attack

An attack may have been the result but it was not the intention.
I was explaining why some of the links were disabled to those in this
group who do use my indexes.

>and a rude, private e-mail.

Which part did you find rude?
The part about disabling the links instead of removing them
or
The part where I said I you'd have to watch out for new links
appearing in the indexes yourself.


Kattz
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/1278/
Some on-site stories
I have Index pages with FTP links to Aviary stories

Index Summary Editor for Alt.StarTrek.Creative

A. LANGSDORF

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to


On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Kattz wrote:

> On 5 Dec 1997 13:17:20 GMT, odogo...@aol.com (OdoGoddess) wrote:
>
>
> The archivist has no objections to my linking to the archive.
> The readers want their stuff read.
> My indexes now have experimental status.

Kattz, you becoming an official experimental site is great. It clears up
so much trouble.

> OdoGoddess:
> You're going to hate it but I'm reattaching the links.

I hope this means *only* the links that are in the ASC archive; those you
have permission and a right to as an official ASC archivist. However,
quite a few stories on OdoGoddess' page are stored *only* at there, and
not on the ASC archive because they were never put on the newsgroup. You
don't have a right to any of those stories.

> I do have some good news for you. Because of space limitations I will
> not be Stephen Ratliff's replacement. Here's another piece of good
> news for you. I only have links to 2 of your stories. Now you and the
> other authors will have to decide whether they want to stay in a
> public access library or confine themselves to a place only visited by
> Odo (and possibly Kira) lovers.

Kattz, some people want a special collection...that's why there is the
Worf Troi Shrine, Odo's Padd, the JJLL, and BONC, just to name a few. If
there are enough readers that the page maintainer feels like running a
page, don't get huffy that they don't want to put their stories on ASC.

Also, the ASC archives often have no summaries and no author name
attached to the stories, give you absolutely no idea as to the
*quality* of the story and have never had been that easy to navigate.

<snip>

>
> > I wrote
> >her with legitimate concerns and she responded with a public attack
>
> An attack may have been the result but it was not the intention.
> I was explaining why some of the links were disabled to those in this
> group who do use my indexes.

You were explaining, but in an accusatory manner. It was rude. So was
adding those "disabled because of OdoGoddess" lines that you added before
each disabled link. *She* had done the work of uploading a lot of those
stories, and *you* were getting the benefit of it without asking if you
could.


>
> >and a rude, private e-mail.
>
> Which part did you find rude?
> The part about disabling the links instead of removing them
> or
> The part where I said I you'd have to watch out for new links
> appearing in the indexes yourself.
>

I can't comment on this e-mail, as it was obviously private...but stop
making antagonistic remarks, both of you. It's clogging the newgroup with
stuff that should be handled privately, possibly with Steven or Alara as a
third-party arbitrater.

Anne L


Lawrence Sparks

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

Kattz <ka...@geocities.com> wrote in article
<348ced49...@news.pc.centuryinter.net>...

> On 5 Dec 1997 13:17:20 GMT, odogo...@aol.com (OdoGoddess) wrote:
>
sniped
>
> The archivist has no objections to my linking to the archive.
> The readers want their stuff read.
> My indexes now have experimental status.
> OdoGoddess:
> You're going to hate it but I'm reattaching the links.

Now this I take exception to. I respect the wishes of every author when it
comes to their work. until you do the same I am very happy that you Kattz
will not be involved with asc.

You asked if you could display Spot's Christmas Eve on your web site for
the 'Christmas season'. I take that to mean the month of December. That
stands, but I now humbly request that you remove any links in your index to
my works. You list everything by the file name. You may list the file name
if you only say "removed from this index." No link or anything ells. Any
Questions?

I will even give you a list of the files

poems/SpotsChristmas
poems/TribbleTrials
poems/MoreOdesToQWriters

I do not believe the rest have found their way into the archive yet.


> I do have some good news for you. Because of space limitations I will
> not be Stephen Ratliff's replacement. Here's another piece of good
> news for you. I only have links to 2 of your stories

I show that OdoGoddess has 12 stories in the archive. 7 of them are in the
adult area. I do not remember that you do the adult area.

>
> Just my laid-back personality.
> Slow to anger.
> Enjoy verbal sparring.
> Blame it on my father. I got it from him.
> My mother frequently gets headaches from it.
>

I also enjoy a little sparring, and it gets me in trouble. I still feel bad
about the sh*ttl*cr*ft bit. I was enjoying the role reversal for everyone.

>
> >and a rude, private e-mail.
>
> Which part did you find rude?
> The part about disabling the links instead of removing them
> or
> The part where I said I you'd have to watch out for new links
> appearing in the indexes yourself.

I only have one author I need to watch out for, and you will not find that
author anywhere in what I do.

I wish we can have the holidays with out any problems when I have a few
days to read and enjoy the holiday stories. This is starting to seriously
cut into that wish.

How did we do the holiday party last year?

--
---------------
LMSparks
to reply remove the SPAM or use lmsp...@directinter.net
come see my pad at http://www.directinter.net/~lmsparks
----------

Aleph Press

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

Somehow this never came through on asc, so I'm reposting it. I hope this
clarifies my feelings on the subject.

[ Article crossposted from alt.startrek.creative.all-ages ]
[ Author was al...@netcom.com ]
[ Posted on Sat, 06 Dec 1997 01:45:45 GMT ]

To: Asca
From: al...@netcom.com
Date sent: 5 Dec 97 14:26:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Copyrights 101 (was Re: What to expect when po


shan...@koyote.com wrote:
: Copyrights 101

: There is no question that posting on the net constitutes publication.
: Taking another person's story and posting it on your website without
: permission is the same as if you took someone's story and put it in a
: fanzine without permission. It's a technical violation of copyright, not
: that there's a lot anyone could do about it, except complain.

No, there's no question at all. Posting on the net constitutes
publication. But what consitutes "posting on the net?"

If I grab a graphic off Paramount's site, and I put it on my own site,
that's a violation of their copyright. However, if I create a hypertext
link to a document *on their site*, that is *not* a violation. I have
*not* published their material. I have created a *link* to it. A link is

a reference. It is the difference between my putting a book in my
bibliography, and my publishing the book. It is the difference between
writing a review which says where you can get the story, and writing a
review which publishes the entire story at the bottom of the review. It
is the difference between telling people where they can find the Mona
Lisa at the Louvre, and stealing the Mona Lisa from the Louvre to put on
dsoplay in your own home.

: Just because you post something on the Net does not mean you relinquish


: ownership. For example, Paramount posts Trek things on their MSN site and
: they are quick to scream and holler "copyright violation" if someone takes
: that material and uses it on another website. Just because Paramount put it
: up on the Net and it's easy to grab and use, does not mean they have
: relinquished ownership of the material or their rights to say what is done
: with it. The same goes for a fan who writes a story. Whether it appears on
: the Net or in a fanzine, it still belongs to the author who has a say on
: what is done with it. Even Paramount could not come and grab the story and
: publish it without permission of the author. It would be a violation of
: copyrights. They may own Trek, but they don't own creative works dealing
: with it (unless they have bought them), although they technically can say
: what is done with the intellectual property they own.

No one has any right to publish without permission. But what you are
saying Kattz did is not a publication. If you link to a story that is
available on the net, all you have done is created a link. To publish it,
you would have to have a copy of the material.

Examine the difference between these situations:

1. Author A publishes a story. It goes to the ASC archive. Kattz makes a
link to it. Author A changes her email address and wants to change it on
the archive. She sends me a new copy. Kattz's luink now addresses the new
copy. Kattz's link has Author A's correct email address.

vs:

2. Author A publishes a story. it goes to the ASC archive. Joe Blow grabs
it off the archive and posts it on his own web site. Author A changes her
email address and whats to change it on the archive. She sends me a new
ccopy. She doesn't send Joe Blow a new copy because she doesn't know he
has a copy on his site. Joe Blow doesn't check the archive to see if the
files are updated. People who read Author A's story at Joe Blow's site
can't email Author A because her email address has changed. She loses
feedback.

Or try this:

1. Author B opublishes a story. It goes to the archive. Kattz links to it
on the archive. Author B decides she wants to try to rework the story
into a pro story, and asks me to pull it off the archive. I do so. Kattz's
link is now broken. Author B is at no risk of exposure because her story
is still available on the net, because it isn't. All that remains is a
broken link.

2. Author B publishes a story. it goes to the archive. Joe Blow pulls it
off for his archive. Author B decides she wants to try to rework the story
into a pro story, and asks me to pull it off the archive. I do so. She
doesn't ask Joe Blow because she doesn't know he has her story. Author
B's editor does an Altavista search to see if the story, which she wants
to publish, is on the net, and finds Joe Blow's copy, which is too
similar. She rejects the story. Author B has just lost money.

Do you see the difference here?

Kttz *should* ask permission. But if she doesn't, it is not a violation
of authorial copyright. To use an example I gave earlier, it's like I
wrote a book, and a local porn store buys 400 copies of the book. My book
isn't porn, it's erotica, and I don't want it sold in a sleazy porn shop.
Do I ahve the right to say anything about it? No. They bought my book
from my publisher. Now, if they wanted to publish it under their own porn
imprint, even if they sent me royalties that's plagiarism. But simply
selling the book is not.

The difference between putting a story on your web site, and putting a
link to that story, is the difference between publishing a work, and
selling someone else's publication of the work. Even if you are selling
the work under the heading "Buy the world's worst novel!", you ahve the
right to sell it. You *don't* have the right to publish it. No money
changes hands with fanfic on the net, but the principle is the same.
Providing other people with access to a work that is published on the net
is not the same as publishing it yourself. A link is *not* identical to a
file.

: Ok, she has your permission to link, Alara, but she doesn't have all the


: authors' permission to use their stories. Granted, it appears her site may
: become an official mirror (once she gets around to indexing the archive
: entirely) with the blessing of the directors of ASC, at which point this
: discussion will be moot.

Firstly, she could hardly get all the authors' permission. Some TOS
authors on the archive don't have email addresses. A lot of them have
dropped out of fandom.

Secondly, I still don't udnerstand why you think her putting up links is
tantamount to her putting up stories. I think you don't understand the
difference between a file and a link.

: Just because something is easy to take without permission, doesn't mean you


: should. You don't go and shoplift something you like just because it's easy
: to do so and you don't think you'll get caught, or there will be no
: repercussions.

No, I'm not arguing that it's right because it's easy to do. it's easy to
take a file offsomeone's site and plop it onto your own. It's easy to put
someone else's story on your website with your name on it. These things
are morally wrong. Linking to a story that's already there on the net is
not wrong, any more than telling people where to go to get the story
would be. it's *polite* to ask, but if you don't, you are not a
plagiarist or a theif; you're jsut rude.

Aleph Press

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

shan...@koyote.com wrote:
: A link to a site is a reference. A link to an item on another site, whether

: it be graphical or text is not. Putting a story up on your site, however you
: obtain it, is publication.

: Here's a site where a lawyer discusses the copyright implications of
: linking.
: http://www.social.com/cgi-bin/online-news/social/hypermail/news/online_news/May_11_May_17_1997/0039.html

: It does not address exactly the problem, but I believe one can extrapolate
: that such linking as Kattz is doing, when done without permission can well
: be considered a copyright violation. This is in the courts right now.
: Ticketmaster is suing Microsoft over linking to internal pages in its site.

It is in the courts right now, and it *has not yet been decided.* At the
moment the argument can be made either way. Personally I think the moment
that copyright law is defined to require individuals to get permission
before linking to a site, the Internet will fall apart. How can a search
engine operate if it must get permission from each page it links?

I also continue to fail to understand why anyone would object to what
Kttz is doing specifically. I understand the issue with Microsoft. They
are linking to Ticketmaster in such a fashion as to bypass Ticketmaster's
plugs and ads, and implying with their text that they own the services of
Ticketmaster's that they are linking to. This is, at the least, false
advertising, and failure to properly give credit. When one creates a
reference, once is honor-bound to credit it.

But what Kattz is doing, by linking to the archive, cannot possibly do
anything more than create greater exposure for the stories involved.
Because she is linked to files on the archive, if you decide to change
your story or remove it or update it, you only need to write me--- not
the Index Maintainers and not anyone else who is linked to the site. Why
would anyone therefore conceivably object to this? It's not like she's
calling the site "The Worst of the Net" or bowdlerizing erotica or
presenting the material in an offensive fashion.

I'm genuinely curious. Is it just the principle of thing, or are people
actually upset to find their work linked on Kattz's TOS page? If so, why?

Kattz

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:30:10 -0700, "A. LANGSDORF" <alan...@NMSU.Edu>
wrote:

>I hope this means *only* the links that are in the ASC archive; those you
>have permission and a right to as an official ASC archivist. However,
>quite a few stories on OdoGoddess' page are stored *only* at there, and
>not on the ASC archive because they were never put on the newsgroup. You
>don't have a right to any of those stories.

Absolutely. All of the links went to the Aviary archive except for the
last upload which was only at Gateway. I've never linked anywhere
else.

>Kattz, some people want a special collection...that's why there is the
>Worf Troi Shrine, Odo's Padd, the JJLL, and BONC, just to name a few. If
>there are enough readers that the page maintainer feels like running a
>page, don't get huffy that they don't want to put their stories on ASC.

I'm not huffy about that. I think it's just fine if people prefer to
archive their stories only at specialty index sites. In fact, they
should do that if they don't want people linking to them in ASC. There
are some lists in the archive of Orion stories with summaries and
directions to their location. Those people could do that too.

>Also, the ASC archives often have no summaries and no author name
>attached to the stories, give you absolutely no idea as to the
>*quality* of the story and have never had been that easy to navigate.

We intend to take care of that problem. In fact, you readers could
help out with that. Read a story that doesn't have a summary then
write one yourself and send it to me along with the name of the story,
the authors name and location in the archive (you could also include
the post date and romance codes if you want to). You may also make
comments about the formatting and the type of rating you think it
should have. I'll make a page for them at my web site [any spelling
mistakes will be corrected] and if any story receives more than one
summary or it already had one you didn't know about the author can
pick which one is best. If the author isn't available to choose then
there could be a vote. These summaries would be for inclusion in
Stephen Ratliff's and hopefully Alara's January Index update.

I think quality reports have been avoided for fear of offending the
authors but if you want to include it in the summary you send go
ahead.

Now, about that navigation problem, why don't you send me an e-mail
telling me what you found difficult about navigating the ASC indexes.

I have Index pages with FTP links to Aviary stories
Index Summary Editor for Alt.StarTrek.Creative

shanna...@koyote.com

unread,
Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

No, it has not been decided in the courts yet, and, as I always write in
stories about lawsuits, a lawsuit is an allegation, not proof of wrongdoing
or law. I'm just using this as an example of what's going on out on the Net
with the linking thing, that lawsuits have resulted. Ticketmaster was
willing to let Microsoft link to their intenal items, if Microsoft made a
deal with them. Instead, Microsoft went ahead and linked without permission,
within frames, making people think the Ticketmaster service was on the
Microsoft site.

An analogy of what Kattz is doing (that she means no harm does not matter),
is going and taking some pages out of someone else's fanzine, sticking them
in my own without getting permission of the author and publisher, and then
distributing the new publication.

A link to a site, or a simple listing of stories without linking, would be a
reference. She is NOT telling people where to find them, she's going and
retrieving them, using someone else's resources (this is not a problem with
the ASC site and it's your site)and displaying them as if it was her site.
The issue is, the author owns the copyrights to their own work. They have
not yielded the copyrights to anyone else. They have agreed to have them
archived by you, but they have not automatically agreed to let you give
their stories away and be displayed elsewhere. It's like when I was a
fanzine publisher, people sent me their stories and I published them in my
fanzine. I did not have the right, however, to send these stories to another
fanzine for publication without permission of the author. Nor would I take
the stories from LoneStar Trek and Second Generation and post them on the
Net without the permission of the authors.

---------------------------------------------------

Ariana Lilcamp

unread,
Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:

- : It does not address exactly the problem, but I believe one can extrapolate
- : that such linking as Kattz is doing, when done without permission can well
- : be considered a copyright violation. This is in the courts right now.
- : Ticketmaster is suing Microsoft over linking to internal pages in its site.
-
- It is in the courts right now, and it *has not yet been decided.* At the
- moment the argument can be made either way. Personally I think the moment
- that copyright law is defined to require individuals to get permission
- before linking to a site, the Internet will fall apart. How can a search
- engine operate if it must get permission from each page it links?

Actually... it does. Sort of.

Search engines, when searching a site, look for a file (robots.txt?)
telling them which directories may and may not be searched. This is
equivalent to granting permission for some, and not for others. However,
the file is formatted so that it is a list of directories or files where
permission is _refused_. The default is that the engine may link to the
page.

This is to prevent just such problems as the Microsoft/Ticketmaster
problem, only with search engines. Sometimes linking to an internal page
of something leads to it being disjoint (I work at a place with web-based
courses in one section; we thought that someone linking into a sub-page of
lesson eleven was a bad way of letting them find information <g> You
might disagree... but it was a decision we had a right to make.) Now,
part of this is that search engines are rather dumb, and programming them
with a sense of discretion in selecting pages would be impossible... so we
have to tell them right from wrong every time. <g>

But what interests me here is that the default value for permission to
link is GIVING permission. Unlike many laws (an example: sexual consent)
where no-answer means NOT giving permission means refusing it, the default
value on the net is "not refusing" --giving.

So at least for me, the question is not an ethical one. The Net _is_ its
programming; that defines the media. And so... in this media, to link is
acceptable unless the *maintainer of the site* (not the writer of the
file!) says otherwise.

It sure sounds to me like Alara's word goes :)

(quietly stepping back out of the fray ... )

Ariana Lilcamp

--
"I prefer to cope with my disasters one at a time!" -- Anne McCaffrey (F'lar in _The White Dragon_)

Remove .ns to reply in email.

Mercutio

unread,
Dec 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/8/97
to

Shannara wrote:

>No, it has not been decided in the courts yet, and, as I always write in
>stories about lawsuits, a lawsuit is an allegation, not proof of wrongdoing
>or law. I'm just using this as an example of what's going on out on the Net
>with the linking thing, that lawsuits have resulted. Ticketmaster was
>willing to let Microsoft link to their intenal items, if Microsoft made a
>deal with them. Instead, Microsoft went ahead and linked without permission,
>within frames, making people think the Ticketmaster service was on the
>Microsoft site.

The article that Shannara is referring to is at the site below. I
urge everyone interested in the legality of the issue to read it.

http://www.social.com/cgi-bin/online-news/social/hypermail/news/online_news
May_11_May_17_1997/0039.html

I have read it, and believe that the Ticketmaster lawsuit is being
misrepresented by Shannara -- the issue under dispute is referenced
back to the Lanham Act, which happens to deal with trademarks. As
trademark infringement is not at stake here, I doubt very much that
"illegal" is the correct epithet to hurl at Kattz's site (if any).

The other lawsuits are equally interesting, and are about financial
damage done to the parent site by outside links. As I see it, in
order to sue Kattz (hypothetically, I mean), ASC would have to prove
that she had done them financial damage, or have infringed upon their
(nonexistent) trademark.

And, of course, we all have done far more damage to Paramount by
infringing upon their (very real) trademark, than Kattz has done to
ASC by her links to ASC. As an example, the ASCA archive has
unauthorized photographs from the series, in addition to its stories.

Linking may be something that alt.startrek.creative wants to prohibit
as a group -- I'm glad that Alara called for a vote -- but in order
for it to be illegal, there would have to be significant harm done.
And there has not been.

Just my .02.

Mercutio


---me...@europa.com---
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps
of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

shanna...@koyote.com

unread,
Dec 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/8/97
to

Never did I say what Kattz was doing was illegal. Illegality is criminality.
There's nothing like that. Just a misguided lack of common courtesy, is all,
and a possible technical violation of copyrights. A copyright dispute would
be a civil case, not a criminal case. (Don't worry, Kattz, no one's out to
sue you! ;) )
And by the way, Mercutio, trademarks are copyrighted.

I was just referring to a legal discussion and a lawsuit IN THE WORKS and
gave the address where to read about it. I have not misrepresented anything.
Mercutio may see the lawsuit differently than me, and she certainly has the
right to her own opinions and interpretations. I'm just going by what the
guy said in the article. It's all very interesting reading.

And it seems most of ASC couldn't care less what is done with their stories.
That's cool, too. But some folks do care, so definitely, that they should
say in a preface to the story that all other archiving and linking must get
the author's permission is a reasonable thing to put in the FAQ.

I can tell you for sure that if one online newspaper linked without
permission to a copyrighted story on another competing newspaper's site,
there would be hell to pay. The fur would fly! But, whatever. I will
always opt for simple courtesy and get permission before posting a story
on ASCA or linking to it in another archive.

---------------------------------------------------

Mission Ops Productions

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Dec 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/8/97
to


A. LANGSDORF <alan...@NMSU.Edu> wrote in article
<Pine.A41.3.96.971206...@paris.NMSU.Edu>...
>
<snip> I hope this means *only* the links that are in the ASC archive;


those you
> have permission and a right to as an official ASC archivist. However,
> quite a few stories on OdoGoddess' page are stored *only* at there, and
> not on the ASC archive because they were never put on the newsgroup. You
> don't have a right to any of those stories.

She has created a mirror index of the asc archive. I've checked out the
DS9 archive, and she has links to asc, not OdoGoddess' Page. One of my
stories is exclusively on OdoGoddess' page and it is *not* linked through
Kattz page.
That is why I can't understand the fuss. It's a mirror of the asc archive
index not an index with Link's to authors webpages and sites.

<snip>

> Also, the ASC archives often have no summaries and no author name
> attached to the stories, give you absolutely no idea as to the
> *quality* of the story and have never had been that easy to navigate.

You're not the only one who has a problem with that. Hopefully we can do
something about that in the future. Kattz's DS9 index should include a lot
more names and summaries shortly. And the Offical ASC DS9 index would have
them too - if Alara doesn't ignore my offer to update that index.

Red

Grnwoman

unread,
Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

I come to this issue late, I fear, as I have not visited the newsgroup in the
past few weeks. (Too much real life interfering! %-0 ) However, a friend has
made me aware of this debate, hence this post.

I vote to not allow linking to the ASC archives without permission.

While I understand the position that once something is posted on the net, it is
available for anyone to read, that availability to *read* is all that I
intended with my postings to ASC. My stories were intended for ASC's readers.
I did not intend them for any other newsgroup, or I would have posted them
there. I did not intend them for any home page other than the two on which
they not appear, and have politely declined requests from other page authors.
I did not consider posting them on ASC to be the equivalent of printing them on
handbills and throwing them out into the wind.

I realize that there are many other issues which may influence the final
decision on this question, but since my opinion was asked, this is it.

And again, my gratitude and appreciation to ASC, its archivists, writers and
those readers who enjoy the stories posted here, whether they offer feedback or
not.

GreenWoman
There is humor in everything, no matter how grim. - Warren Zevon -
If I wasn't crazy, I would go insane. - Jimmy Buffett -
Be cool, but care. - Buckaroo Banzai -


Ariana

unread,
Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

In article <19971211004...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

grnw...@aol.com (Grnwoman) wrote:
> I vote to not allow linking to the ASC archives without permission.

I too am jumping on this topic a little late, but I do have an opinion.

As an author, I systematically refuse permission for my stories to be
*archived* elsewhere than on the ASC archive (not that many have even
made it that far...) because a) I am constantly finding typos and errors
I want to correct after publishing and b) I have my own archive and I had
rather people came to visit it. If someone asks to archive my stories, I
ask that they include a *link* to the story on my site, rather than store
a copy of my story on theirs. This way, potential readers will always get
the copy I want them to see.

However, I have no problem whatsoever with people *linking* to my stories
either on the ASC archive or on my site. As I see it, that's simply
another way to get to the same copy of the story; the person who has
linked to my site isn't distributing or modifying my work, since the
actual archive is mine, and I really don't see in what way that harms
anyone.

In accordance with this belief that linking is a service rather than a
copyright infringement, my list of Dukat romances includes links to
stories archived on other sites. Where possible, I have included links to
the author's own site, but alternatively, the links point to the ASC
archive or Luciana Trautsch's Dukat archive (when it's working...).
However, I do not store anyone else's stories on my site, nor do I even
send them out by e-mail (or only in particular circumstances where the
author is completely incommunicado). I do not copy, store, distribute or
in any other way manipulate other peoples' stories.

My list is just an aid for Dukat lovers to satisfy their passion. Many
authors who are listed there have appreciated the added exposure the list
has given their stories. Those who do not want to be identified have
links that point to me, those whose stories are not archived have no
links at all. And indeed, I haven't asked for permissions in every case
(though I have when the author was easily accessible), because I don't
see how recommending a story which is available elsewhere, and making it
easier for the reader to reach it, is a violation of anyone's work.

Now, if anyone has written a Dukat story published on ASC or the
Cardassian fanfic list, and you *don't* want links on my page, let me
know. You can check out the page at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ariane/dukat.htm.

Ariana
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ariane

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

Stephen Ratliff

unread,
Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

Mission Ops Productions (red...@zip.com.au) wrote:
: > Also, the ASC archives often have no summaries and no author name

: > attached to the stories, give you absolutely no idea as to the
: > *quality* of the story and have never had been that easy to navigate.
We are working on that.
:
: You're not the only one who has a problem with that. Hopefully we can do

: something about that in the future. Kattz's DS9 index should include a lot
: more names and summaries shortly. And the Offical ASC DS9 index would have
: them too - if Alara doesn't ignore my offer to update that index.

I've already followed up on this elsewhere, but I better do it here as
well. Alara is the archivist, she archives the stories. I'm the Index
Maintainer, I correct those entries with the assistantance of many
volenteers (and I think I'm finally getting some reliable ones) Kattz is
now my summary editor. She makes sure all those spelling errors are
gone and everything is formated correctly.

I am working on a way to get all those stories without authors listed
up-dated, but it requires me to download a copy of the index onto a
lunix formated drive, and I need that drive first (I don't have enough
space to store the archive, but I do have the program necessary)

So, remember the contact list:
Alara Archive
Stephen Index and FAQs

Stephen, a man with many hats.

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