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The Foresmutters Project

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mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu

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May 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/9/99
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The Foresmutters Project is a disorganized effort to type
in old printzine stories for posting online. We expect to
post our first item Real Soon Now. There have been some
rumors floating around about it, so this is our Manifesto.

We have been using our resources and influence to ensure:

a) that no story will appear online without the explicit permission
of the author or hir heirs. If the author cannot be identified and
located, the story won't go up.

b) that existing copyrights in works of fan fiction remain valid
and that older works do not, through inadvertent omission of
the proper copyright notice, pass into the public domain. In fan
fiction, the copyright is almost always the author's, except in
those rare instances in which the author has assigned hir
copyright to the editor.

c) that no story will appear online except under a name of the
author's choosing. If the author wishes to remain anonymous
online, we will encourage people who recognize the story not
to "out" hir.

Most of the interest in the Foresmutters Project so far has been
directed toward material from the earliest days of slash -- stories
in zines that are physically deteriorating. Our interest is *not* in
posting stories from zines that are still in print.

Present character-reading technology is not able to cope with the
low print quality of most zines. Because nothing is going up that
someone isn't willing to type in, you can expect things to show
up that are of historical or literary importance, but not the
whole content of run-of-the-mill zines or zines that are still in
print. The Foresmutters Project is by no means (theoretically)
limited to K/S, but that's what people have been most interested
in, so far. Mary Ellen is very interested in finding out what story
is the earliest example of S/Mc (no K), but hasn't had any luck.

If there's an old zine story or poem that you love and want
to save for the world, and that you're willing to do the work of
typing up, contact Mary Ellen Curtin (mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu)
or Judith Gran (judy...@aol.com). Our function is to help
people contact authors and to prevent duplication of effort. We
will state that, at least for 1999, Gayle Feyrer does *not* wish
her fanfiction or art to appear online, and we will do everything
possible to see that her wish is respected.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA

Judith Gran
Dean, TSU College of Law
- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:
"Homage to Catalonia," by George Orwell

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DangerMom

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May 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/9/99
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Mary Ellen...

If my memory can be trusted, an early example of S/Mc (but I think it was only
an "R" story--McCoy was the one around when Spock went into pon farr...) was in
one of the first issues of the zine "R & R" (the zine that came in the plain
brown covers). I can't remember the title, it may have been written by Connie
Faddis...

If I can track down any more details, I'll drop you a line.

DangerMom
Voyager Fiction, Links, and more at:
http://members.aol.com/DangerMom/home.html

Jungle Kitty

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May 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/9/99
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<deep breath>

I am very uncomfortable with this whole thing. I freely admit that part
of my discomfort is due to the less-than-pleasant experiences I've had
among the citizens of the zine world. But one of the things I grew
extremely sick of was having the Glorious History of K/S shoved in my
face every time I turned around, which started up the minute I entered
that forum.

I know Judith and Mary Ellen mean well with this, but I have to question
the value of posting these stories to the NG. There is plenty of Trek
fanfic on the web, and not all of it has appeared on ASC/EM. I certainly
understand the value of sharing these stories, but why not do it on a
webpage? You could post update notices to the group, as is frequently
done by the owners of similar pages.

I think this may be contradictory to the community spirit that we enjoy
here. From private convo with Doc & Judith, I know that they had to
*beg* the author of "Freedom Is Standing In the Light" to allow them to
post it to the NG. If this person is so reluctant to participate in the
NG and suspicious of what may happen here, why use up the bandwidth
(esp. on ASCEM, which is limited to 50 posts a day) when the writer has
no interest at all in response from the readers or in participating in
the group at all? Lurking authors? A very strange concept.

The first story has just appeared on ASC and will presumably appear
shortly on ASCEM. In the introduction, the author says s/he doesn't want
feedback because she has been praised enough. Let the feedback back go
to newer writers, who need it. What if someone has something to offer
other than praise? Oh, that could never happen, because it also states
in the introduction that many regard this as a finest piece of fan
fiction ever. Well, I guess there's no need for feedback or discussion
to that, is there?

I welcome other opinions on this, but to me, it feels like our party has
just been shut down. Someone has shouted, "Shut up, sit down, and listen
to this! This is IMPORTANT!" And we are politely but sternly told not to
try to contact the writer, so no discussion with hir (praise or crit) is
possible. What's the point? If these people want to post the stories and
join in the fun, great! Welcome aboard! But this feels like we've just
been given a reading assignment. I get enough of that sort of thing in
real life.

If Judith and Mary Ellen really want to post these stories, they should
go ahead. First Amendment, Freedom of Speech, etc. But in that same
spirit, I have to voice my objection, and I hope others here will speak
up, yea or nay.

--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, I'm a Kirkologist, and I'm OK,
It's Kirk all night, and it's Kirk all day.
He wears gold shirts, he's got tight pants,
And women by the score.
He thrills his many shipmates
With EVEs galore.

Oh, I'm a Kirkologist, and I'm OK...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jess inEngland

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May 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/9/99
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In article: <3735C830...@accesscom.com> Jungle Kitty

<jki...@accesscom.com> writes:

> I know Judith and Mary Ellen mean well with this, but I have to
question
> the value of posting these stories to the NG. There is plenty of Trek
> fanfic on the web, and not all of it has appeared on ASC/EM. I
certainly
> understand the value of sharing these stories, but why not do it on a
> webpage? You could post update notices to the group, as is frequently
> done by the owners of similar pages.
>
> I think this may be contradictory to the community spirit that we
enjoy
> here. From private convo with Doc & Judith, I know that they had to
> *beg* the author of "Freedom Is Standing In the Light" to allow them
to
> post it to the NG. If this person is so reluctant to participate in
the
> NG and suspicious of what may happen here, why use up the bandwidth
> (esp. on ASCEM, which is limited to 50 posts a day) when the writer
has
> no interest at all in response from the readers or in participating
in
> the group at all? Lurking authors? A very strange concept.

I think JK, if I may call you that, you may be forgetting that ASC
isn't a two-way conversation between reader and writer. It's also a
n-way conversation between all the readers and posters too. If the
writers doesn't want/need feedback, there's no reason why we, the
readers, can't discuss it between ourselves.

I actually reckon it's quite helpful of the author to disclaim the need
for feedback -- the story is too long written to be changed and (s)he
feels that new writers need feedback more that (s)he does.
So we can discuss it between ourselves without wondering whether we
ought to moderate our language for fear of hurting the author's
feelings.

> I welcome other opinions on this, but to me, it feels like our party
has
> just been shut down. Someone has shouted, "Shut up, sit down, and
listen
> to this! This is IMPORTANT!" And we are politely but sternly told not
to
> try to contact the writer, so no discussion with hir (praise or crit)
is
> possible. What's the point?

The point, surely, is that readers and other writers may enjoy reading
and commenting about the story between ourselves.

It is regarded (rightly or wrongly) as a very fine story and something
of a classic. Although I personally feel it is let down badly by and
over-ambiguous ending, there is no denying the power of the central
concept or of the language.

I'm glad I read it a few years back, it's one of those that makes one
want to hang up one's word processor. Maybe other people would welcome
that option too.

As for the web-page - some of us pay for local calls by the second and
spending a lot of time on the web isn't healthy for our bank-balances.

Jess

Where are we all coming from?
From Kirkland were we belong.
Does he like to smooch with a fruit?
To smooch with a fruit he things is cute.

===
To reply by e-mail you have to type in the address.
Hitting the reply button won't work, the headers are
munged to avoid spam.

To reply use -- ukj...@yahoo.com
or ukj...@hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Raku2u

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
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Guess I've got somewhat similar feelings, JK, while also differing in some
ways.

I personally also feel overburdened with The History of K/S sometimes, and I
get tired of hearing Oh that was done before by lessee some person in 1984 whom
I've never heard of (tho that happens less now than it used to, dunno why).
If I can't read it now (relevant zine being unavailable), and haven't been able
to read it before I wrote the story, and most of my reading audience hasn't
read it, how is it relevant what someone did 15 years ago or more?

But now I just ignore it on those occasions when people start on about the
past, and write what I want to write, and read what I want to read. I too feel
that if the author doesn't want feedback, and wants effort expended on
new/young authors, the story's something of a waste of time: if we read it,
we're obviously not reading something new/young, and if we discuss it, ditto.
So even if we don't feed hir back, we're still taking time from the new/young.

On the other hand, there is the delete key; nobody's making me read anything.

On the other other hand, I worry in RL about issues of preservation, electronic
and paper both. And I've wondered whether/how early zine stuff is being
preserved, and how web stuff is being preserved (I personally own several
versions of one of my stories, for example--which is the *real* one? Not even
the posted ones match.)

raku, interested but likelier to read something truly new, with active
web-based authors whom I can talk with


-----
"Look! There's Barbie!" --a young friend on seeing Yeoman Rand for the first
time

"The Learning Curve," hypertext TOS story, now online at
http://members.aol.com/U2ukar
and through http://members.aol.com/Raku2u
-----

Fizzbin

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
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In article <3735C830...@accesscom.com>,
Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com> wrote:

> <deep breath>
>
> I am very uncomfortable with this whole thing. I freely admit that
part
> of my discomfort is due to the less-than-pleasant experiences I've had
> among the citizens of the zine world. But one of the things I grew
> extremely sick of was having the Glorious History of K/S shoved in my
> face every time I turned around, which started up the minute I entered
> that forum.

Snipping lots of interesting arguments, in sum:

> I certainly
> understand the value of sharing these stories, but why not do it on a
> webpage?

> why use up the bandwidth when the writer has


> no interest at all in response from the readers or in participating in
> the group at all?

> I welcome other opinions on this, but to me, it feels like our party


has
> just been shut down. Someone has shouted, "Shut up, sit down, and
listen
> to this! This is IMPORTANT!"

>I have to voice my objection, and I hope others here will


speak
> up, yea or nay.

Funny, I can see your point, but at the same time I had a completely
opposite reaction. I welcomed the idea of seeing some of this stuff on
the NGs, though now that you mention it, rampant posting would put a
strain on ASCEM.

To explain, I need to tell you little of my history as a fan. I've been
a Trekker since Day One in 1966, but for most of that time I have been
completely cut off from opportunities to talk with other Trekkers. So
much so that I was a K/Ser for years before I even knew there were
others anywhere with a similar take on the relationship. I also never
had very good access to zines and, until I stumbled into ASC/EM was
pretty clueless about what sort of fanfic was actually out there -- I
knew it was there, I wasn't that far out of the loop, but I just didn't
have an reliable opportunities to get my hands on any of it.

For all these reasons, when Mary Ellen posted the Foresmutters
announcement, I was very excited to at last see some of the "history" of
the genre. History is a good thing to have -- as long as folks don't
start worshipping it. And I'm sorry to hear that people have been
shoving the past in your face. That shouldn't happen -- it's the first
step to "orthodoxy".

Whether or not the original authors desire feedback, there is nothing to
stop such stories from providing a springboard for discussion among
group members. And, maybe that might be valuable. It would be for me,
but then, as I've said I'm a relative newbie to this, so it might bore
oldtimers senseless.

I do think it would be a good idea to have a web-based archive somewhere
outside the ASC/EM collections, since I don't think the stories will be
eligible for awards here and adding them to the ASC/EM sites would be
another burden on our archivists. But a lot of people don't have the
luxury of accessing websites and I think it would be unfortunate if the
material weren't available -- at least on ASC -- for those who would
otherwise lose out. I've been there, it's a lonely place.

I don't feel like I've been told to shut up and sit down -- hell, I'm
far too uppity an entity to do that even if I had been told. It does
seem that I'm being told it's important, but in a lot of ways I agree
with that. Preservation appeals to me, and I'd like to see how certain
genres and fanfic traditions evolved. Disclaimers of being "the best
fanfic ever", on the other hand, are likely to be met by my extreme
skepticism. I'll make up my own mind on that score and cheerfully
ignore such labels. But, I would welcome the opportunity to be allowed
to make up my mind at long last.

Maybe the solution would be to post the stories, without archiving, to
ASC only, and also establish a web site to maintain an archive?

In any case, IDIC.

Oh, and *thank you*, all you denizens of ASC/EM -- it's nice to have a
community finally.

--
Fizzbin
fiz...@my-dejanews.com
=======================
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd!" - Tom Lehrer


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
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In article <7h5lpv$c08$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Fizzbin <fiz...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>History is a good thing to have -- as long as folks don't
> start worshipping it.
<snip>

> Whether or not the original authors desire feedback, there is nothing
to
> stop such stories from providing a springboard for discussion among
> group members. And, maybe that might be valuable. It would be for
me,
> but then, as I've said I'm a relative newbie to this, so it might bore
> oldtimers senseless.
>
> I do think it would be a good idea to have a web-based archive
somewhere
> outside the ASC/EM collections, since I don't think the stories will
be
> eligible for awards here and adding them to the ASC/EM sites would be
> another burden on our archivists. But a lot of people don't have the
> luxury of accessing websites and I think it would be unfortunate if
the
> material weren't available -- at least on ASC -- for those who would
> otherwise lose out. I've been there, it's a lonely place.
>
> I don't feel like I've been told to shut up and sit down -- hell, I'm
> far too uppity an entity to do that even if I had been told.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Fizzbin, also UKJess and Kevas (who
said similar things). That is *exactly* what we're trying to do.

Let people see some of the old material they've heard about but to
which they have no access, make life easier for historians, give us an
opportunity for discussion, and ON NO ACCOUNT tell anyone to shut up.
On the contrary, it's a lot easier to be ruthlessly honest about a
story's faults when the author isn't listening.

The web site is not yet under construction, it's more at the
sit-around-looking-at-the-backhoe stage (I'm learning HTML). But it
*will* happen, just don't hold your breath. The archiving issue I leave
up to the ASC/EM deities, long may they wave.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA

- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:

Sydvick

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
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>Oh, and *thank you*, all you denizens of ASC/EM -- it's nice to have a
>community finally.
>

Denizen, can an entity like me be a denizen? hee hee.

On to the real issue. I love history and I love the view back at what others
have done, especially since I never got to read any of the K/S zines until last
year. So, post on. I am always looking for new things to read,old or new, it
doesn't matter. I treasure any good writing I can get my hands on.

I can understand your view JK, but I just don't agree. Mostly that is because
at 2am in the morning when I am looking at the NG, I want something TOS posted
and I want alot of it, so by any means necessary.


Jungle Kitty

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
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Responding to many emails here, some sent to me privately.

Why can't these stories just be posted? Why must there be a Foresmutters
Project? Part of what turns me off is the name. Smacks too much of
Founding Fathers, as if they're people we should automatically revere
and respect. They're fanfic writers, just like the rest of us. So they
should act like it. Instead, it feels like they're coming down from the
lofty heights, gracious generous deities, to share with us, the unworthy
scribblers. I think the stories would be much better received if they
were simply posted, without all this fanfare or the Foresmutters'
designation of Historical or Literary Importance. One of the greatest
things about ASC/EM is how welcome the newbies are, how no one asks how
long they've been a fan, or what do they have to offer. The Foresmutters
feel like visiting celebrities, and I say bleagh.

According to the Project charter (oh shit, I'm in Project Management
again), only stories of historical or literary importance will be
included, and will apparently be so designated by the choice of the
project team. It's simply not in the wide-open, everyone-is-welcome
spirit that I associate with the NG. In short, it has a tinge of
snobbishness. Remember the country club discussions?

If these stories are to carry the lofty designation of the Foresmutters
Project, I really do think a webpage would be a better place for them.
It would be an archive, and a valuable one. It's certainly one that I
would bookmark. But people do seem to want these stories to be posted,
and I don't want to discourage that. I just think it can and should be
done without all the fanfare. They're stories. Post them without all the
history, without telling us how Important they are, and without the
Stamp of Approval.

Jungle Kitty

Wildcat

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
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Fizzbin wrote:

> Funny, I can see your point, but at the same time I had a completely
> opposite reaction. I welcomed the idea of seeing some of this stuff on
> the NGs, though now that you mention it, rampant posting would put a
> strain on ASCEM.

Having read through all the posts on this topic, I chose this one as the
basis for my reply because it most closely reflects my own view, ie.
somewhere in the middle. I'm interested in reading these stories, but
not without a few reservations. I agree that they'd do well on a
website. If not everyone has easy access to the web, well, then I
suppose my second choice is seeing them on asc. It makes me very
uneasy, however, when I learn that the writer of this story 1) doesn't
want feedback and 2) didn't really want hir story posted in the first
place. It makes me wonder what sort of arm-twisting took place to
convince hir to allow it: "We'll post it, but we'll make sure all those
ng folks leave you alone," perhaps?

As for the story itself, I was lukewarm about it. I think I might have
enjoyed it much more if not for the grand introduction--my expectations
were set rather high, so just about anything would have been a letdown.
There's probably a lot more I could say about it (such as the
predictability of the ending), but I kinda feel like it's not worth the
effort. The story has been around a long time, and since the writer
isn't interested in feedback, it feels like a dead subject to me.
That's probably not the right attitude, because I know there's
considerable merit in discussion of "old" works, but given this forum,
that's just how it feels to me.

Jungle Kitty had a good point when she suggested that the stories simply
be *posted* without such fanfare. Yes, I enjoy knowing their origin,
and yes, I appreciate the great effort Mary Ellen and Judith are making
to retype them, but they're still just stories, regardless of where they
originated. The fact that they hail from the "old days" is a curiosity
to me, nothing less, nothing more. We've all heard about the glories of
the old zines--I think it's entirely possible we'll read these stories
and learn that they're not that much different than what we find here on
the net, today.

WC

Greywolf the Wanderer

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
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On 10 May 1999 01:25:07 -0500, Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>
wrote:

>Responding to many emails here, some sent to me privately.
>
>Why can't these stories just be posted? Why must there be a Foresmutters
>Project? Part of what turns me off is the name. Smacks too much of
>Founding Fathers, as if they're people we should automatically revere
>and respect. They're fanfic writers, just like the rest of us. So they
>should act like it. Instead, it feels like they're coming down from the
>lofty heights, gracious generous deities, to share with us, the unworthy
>scribblers. I think the stories would be much better received if they
>were simply posted, without all this fanfare or the Foresmutters'
>designation of Historical or Literary Importance.

<The Wolf stands there shaking his head for a moment>
Woo. With all due respect, honourable Kitty-san, I think thee is
*waaaay* over-reacting here. I didn't see it that way at all. I
think Preservation is much more the concern here than snobbishness.
Many many fen have no zine access at all, nor likelihood of getting
it. Hell, for 20+ years I thought I was the only K/S fan in the
universe!! And I've met others who lived the same.

>One of the greatest
>things about ASC/EM is how welcome the newbies are, how no one asks how
>long they've been a fan, or what do they have to offer. The Foresmutters
>feel like visiting celebrities, and I say bleagh.

Thee has the right to thy opinion, nor would I deny it. But I
question the strength of your anger here... What is wrong with
posting more stories to a story-posting group? I do not understand.

>According to the Project charter (oh shit, I'm in Project Management
>again), only stories of historical or literary importance will be
>included, and will apparently be so designated by the choice of the
>project team. It's simply not in the wide-open, everyone-is-welcome
>spirit that I associate with the NG. In short, it has a tinge of
>snobbishness. Remember the country club discussions?

Yes I do -- and even at the time I thought it was a crock of shite.
ASC/em is not and never has been a country club. Many of us would
never be allowed into a club of that sort, except perhaps to swab out
the toilets and empty the trash ;-)> I figured then and still do that
the country club thing was basically one long immature snivel from
some folks who desperately needed to Get a Fucking Life.

>If these stories are to carry the lofty designation of the Foresmutters
>Project, I really do think a webpage would be a better place for them.
>It would be an archive, and a valuable one. It's certainly one that I
>would bookmark. But people do seem to want these stories to be posted,
>and I don't want to discourage that. I just think it can and should be
>done without all the fanfare. They're stories. Post them without all the
>history, without telling us how Important they are, and without the
>Stamp of Approval.
>
>Jungle Kitty

Eesh. Well, that's yer opinion, and ye've a perfect right to it. But
my own is 180 degrees oposito.

I personally love this story. I do agree with Jess, that the ending
could have been more definitive. But it seems quite clear on careful
reading what will happen next. He has no more reason to live, he will
let himself go. As would I in his place. To me this was a lovely
example of angst-to-the-max...

As for anonymity, that is any entity's right, nor does Privacy permit
rude enquiries as to *why* lom might Choose such a thing. Lom did;
that is the only pertinent datum. And after all, no-one's got a
phaser to anyone's head to *make* them read these things...

I'm with Syd. At 0230 I don't give a shite where my TOS fix came
from; I just want one, to give me relief from the endless oceans of
stuff I couldn;t care less about.

Truly, we all are examples of Infinite Diversity, not so?

Greywolf the Wanderer, who personally thinks the Foresmutter's Project
is a fucking *great* idea!!!

Kattz

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
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On Mon, 10 May 1999 17:39:48 GMT, greywol...@snowcrest.net (Greywolf
the Wanderer) wrote:

>Thee has the right to thy opinion, nor would I deny it. But I
>question the strength of your anger here... What is wrong with
>posting more stories to a story-posting group? I do not understand.

Perhaps because ASC/EM is a moderated group and they are already swamped
with new stories they have to post.

Maybe the Foresmutters should consider having a webpage for browsers and
sending the stories out directly by e-mail. Or they could post them to
ASCE and anyone who wants to see them can wade through all the sex ads.


Kattz
Index Summary Editor for Alt.StarTrek.Creative
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/1278/ASC-menu.htm

Jungle Kitty

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May 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/10/99
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If I've offended anyone by suggesting that a web archive would be a
better venue for the Foresmutter stories, then I apologize. But I felt
it was something worthy of the group's attention, so I brought it up.

Greywolf the Wanderer wrote:

> What is wrong with
> posting more stories to a story-posting group? I do not understand.

Because, IMO, this is not *just* a story-posting group. It isn't an
archive. Like Wildcat, I'm scratching my head over why these writers
want their stories posted in a forum in which they have no interest. If
it's simply a matter of wanting them preserved on the net, then I still
think a website would make more sense. But the group feels differently,
so IDIC in action. As has been pointed out, no one's forcing anyone to
read them.

As to the feedback issue: Yes, every writer has the right to refuse
feedback. So why not a simple statement like "The author does not wish
feedback." Instead we have this:

"I don't want e-mail. Fans have praised
me generously in the past; I hope they will give their
feedback to new writers who really want and need it."

There is a condescension to that statement that makes me cringe.

And I still have to question the manner in which these stories are being
posted. If the stories are so wonderful, we'll figure that out for
ourselves. Just post them. Say something simple like "This story first
appeared in <zine> on <date>." Why must they carry the burden of being
an Important Story of Historic Importance?

And it *is* a burden. I first read the story in question about a year
ago, after it had been given a big build-up in a private chat group I
was part of at the time. I thought it was excellent, and I found much of
it moving, but for me, it fell short of stunning. I ended up being
disappointed, I suspect more so than I would have been if I hadn't heard
so much about it. I think there are flaws in the story, but I'll never
know how much of my response was due to that, and how much was due to
the fact that it simply couldn't live up to everything I'd heard about
it.

A couple of other people have said the same after reading it here on the
NG. Their level of expectation had been raised so high that the story
couldn't live up to it.

So, hell, yes, post the stories if the group feels that's what they
want. But please, get the heralds down off the balcony. The trumpets are
drowning out the words.

mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
In article <3736194B...@accesscom.com>,

Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com> wrote:
>Why can't these stories just be posted? Why must there be a
Foresmutters
>Project?

To protect the rights of authors. The idea of scanning/typing
in old stories has been kicked around in a variety of fora
and conversations for several years, but it's finally reached
a critical breakthrough point. Many people (not just Judith and
I) have been very worried that stories would be posted
wholesale, without proper attribution, permission, or copyright
statements. That's why the Foresmutters Manifesto is about
legal issues. The legal implications of posting fanfiction
written before 1985 on the net are complex and undefined, and
it would be quite possible for authors to lose their copyrights if
works are posted arbitrarily.

Judith and I are not interested in organizing what is going to
be netted, assigning people to type, or making judgements for
others about what is or isn't worth netting. What we *are* offering
to do is to help contact authors, and to ensure that the legal and
moral rights of authors are respected. It would be nice if this could
be done without any central coordination at all, but the legal
situation is too unclear for that to be a really safe option.

>Part of what turns me off is the name. Smacks too much of
>Founding Fathers, as if they're people we should automatically revere
>and respect.

Actually, quite a few other people have said they like the name and
find it mildly humorous. I think Ben Franklin (an
internationally-ranked nice dirty old man) would be amused at
the association. To me, it's got a Harpo Marx honk-honk quality:
I do not automatically link the word "smut" with reverence.

>According to the Project charter (oh shit, I'm in Project Management
>again), only stories of historical or literary importance will be
>included, and will apparently be so designated by the choice of the
>project team. It's simply not in the wide-open, everyone-is-welcome
>spirit that I associate with the NG.

Apparently we weren't clear here. By "historical or literary
importance" we mean: things someone -- *anyone* who is willing
to do the work -- thinks is interesting enough to post. "Literary
importance" means "the poster thinks it's a good story, and wants
to share it." "Historical importance" means "may not be a good story,
but the poster thinks it's historically interesting and wants to share
it."

It *is* wide open, and everyone is welcome. Many long-time fans
want to share their favorite old stories, or stories that made a big
impression on them at one time. Many newer fans (especially those
outside North America) are curious about the earlier days of what
turned out to be Treksmut or slash.

Our main concern is that the generous instinct to share the things
we love doesn't end up stealing from the authors who boldly smutted
where no-one had smutted before.

Judith, am I presenting the legal issues properly? Anything
to add?

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:

"The Worm Ouroboros," by E. R. Eddison

Jungle Kitty

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
I wrote:
> >Why can't these stories just be posted? Why must there be a
> Foresmutters
> >Project?

And Mary Ellen wrote:
>
> To protect the rights of authors.

<snip>

As usual, Mary Ellen, you have missed my point completely. I wasn't
sugggesting that the stories should be posted without copyright
protection or without the writers' permission. I just find all this
fanfare offensive and pretentious.

But I will try to address your statement. Is the way the rest of us post
less than adequate when it comes to protecting the rights of the
authors? Why do theirs need extra-special protection?

T'Kae

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
>It *is* wide open, and everyone is welcome. Many long-time fans
>want to share their favorite old stories, or stories that made a big
>impression on them at one time. Many newer fans (especially those
>outside North America) are curious about the earlier days of what
>turned out to be Treksmut or slash.
>
As a fan living outside North America I would like to thank Mary Ellen for
her efforts. Living in Hungary, I never had access to fanzines and I'm not
likely to have it in future, so I welcome every posting of old fanzine
stories. I agree that putting them on a website would be better in general,
but I personally find it more handy to have them here on the newsgroup.
I hope the flood of overreactions the Foresmutters project prompted doesn't
stop anyone from posting old fanzine stories.
If the main objection is the lack of bandwidth on ASCEM, why not post them
just on ASC?

T'Kae

Nesabj

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
I would just like to add that for those of us who live in sleepy little burgs
with no access to conventions, and little possibility of purchasing older
fanfic, I am thrilled that you are taking the trouble to make some of the work
available.
Those who are uninterested or offended by this project can exercise their
rights by not reading the posts.
The rest of us will be very grateful for the opportunity to read more TOS
fanfic.
Thank you.
Nes...@aol.com

mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
With Fizzbin's permission, I am posting some suggestions ze made about
the FP:

>1) Posting only to ASC, so that the ASCEM mods and listmoms won't
start a protest.
>
>1) On the posts to the group, make the sender "Foresmutters Project"
and put the real author's byline in the text. This would alert
readers immediately to the special nature of the story, and those who
are not interested could just pass over it. It will also alert awards
list compilers that the story isn't eligible.
>
>2) Put in a "do not archive" notice, so the ASC archivists just pass
over the posts completely.
>
>3) If the author doesn't want hir name given, use a simple "Name
Withheld" without further explanation -- I think people will accept it
as a variation on Ascem Noone.
>
>4) And perhaps, rather than giving the history in the post itself,
the disclaimer should simply state the origin of the story, e.g.,
"This story first appeared in the fanzine X in 19xx and is posted with
permission as part of the Foresmutters Project at [insert URL]." More
indepth information, for those interested, could then be included in
the website file without inflaming the passions of NG dissenters.
>
>5) A periodic Status of Foresmutters FAQ might be posted to give
notice of web site additions and also to provide basic information on
the nature of Foresmutters for the benefit of group newbies.

And I said:

>my inclination is to accept most of your suggestions verbatim.
>The ASCEM modkins don't have a problem with number of posts,
>and a number of people have said they really appreciate getting
>things via the mailing list, so I'm going to continue to post to
>ASCEM and ASCA (as applicable).
>
>But maybe we should have special "history" posts to go with
>the stories -- people for whom the H-word sets off
>an allergic reaction could skip them, but readers would have
>the opportunity to discuss the history of each story in a public
>forum. Hmm, thinking it over I like that idea better than just
>presenting an "authoritative" history on the web site.

What do other people think?

Fizzbin

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
In article <7ha43l$jbc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu wrote:

>But maybe we should have special "history" posts to go with
>the stories -- people for whom the H-word sets off
>an allergic reaction could skip them, but readers would have
>the opportunity to discuss the history of each story in a public
>forum. Hmm, thinking it over I like that idea better than just
>presenting an "authoritative" history on the web site.
>
> What do other people think?

Well, I don't quite qualify as "other people", but I think it's a good
idea, provided the posts are written *very* objectively, perhaps
including some information on the various zines mentioned, and, if
possible, where the story's concept stands on the fanfic evolutionary
tree. With regard to that last, I wouldn't want anyone to take that
mapping as a dictum for what can and can't be written today. (Orthodoxy
-- Phtui!) I'm more interested in how attitudes in fanfic have changed
over the years and how those changes stack up against changes in society
as a whole -- I guess that's just my wee anthropologist soul rattling
its cage and slavering "feed me! feed me!"

--
Fizzbin
fiz...@my-dejanews.com
=======================
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd!" - Tom Lehrer

Michael Roy Hollihan

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu wrote:
> >
> >But maybe we should have special "history" posts to go with
> >the stories -- people for whom the H-word sets off
> >an allergic reaction could skip them, but readers would have
> >the opportunity to discuss the history of each story in a public
> >forum. Hmm, thinking it over I like that idea better than just
> >presenting an "authoritative" history on the web site.
>
> What do other people think?
>
> Mary Ellen
> Doctor Science, MA

Yes! But I think the authoritative history should still be written for
scholar-wannabees like me. ;-)

--
Michael Roy Hollihan
Memphis, Tennessee, USA
(Remove the NOT when hitting REPLY)

Time exists so that everything doesn't happen at once. (Buckaroo
Bonzai)

Education is the sleeping pill that makes dreams come true. (Peggy
Hill)

HAIKU: It's so lush
You float on a Valium
In your swimming pool.

Sydvick

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
I think as a person with a webpage and a persona as a historian on that
webpage, you can archive it on my page if you want. I have learned how to
upload and update my page now and I can start whenever you are ready I don't
want to volunteer Robin's services, but if I screw up, I'm sure she will help
me fix the ouchy. Won't you Robin? ;-D


My heart is single and cannot be divided
And it is fastened on a single hope;
Oh you, who might be the moon
Until I die, I shall not give up lovesongs.
Oh God, forgive me my shortcomings
SOMALI LOVESONG

Raku2u

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
T'Kae wrote:

>I hope the flood of overreactions the Foresmutters project prompted doesn't
>stop anyone from posting old fanzine stories.

Surely it's possible to post a dissenting opinion without it being called an
overreaction?

raku, thinking about getting ticked

Jungle Kitty

unread,
May 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/11/99
to
Ahem. I apologize to the group. Obviously, I have strong feelings about
this, and I'm sorry that I included some of my offline experiences and
feelings in my original post. I thought I should share that with you,
rather than hide my bias.

Despite that, I stand behind what I've said. I believe the Foresmutters
Project is a sincere, valuable, and well-intentioned activity that is
not being handled in a way that would truly serve its purpose. I find it
interesting that there is one item of discussion that has not been
answered by the Foresmutters. Namely, the grand unveiling aspect to the
posting of the first story interfered with their enjoyment of the story.
So if it's actually interfering with the appreciation of the stories,
why is it so necessary? Can't you just post without all the fuss? And
I'm sorry, a separate "history of the story" post is just more fuss.

Anyway, I'm going to shut up on this subject now. I'm sorry if I've
misbehaved, and I thank you all for your patience with my particular
madness.

Katie Redshoes

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
On Tue, 11 May 1999 20:31:49 GMT in alt.startrek.creative,
mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu wrote:

>With Fizzbin's permission, I am posting some suggestions ze made about
>the FP:

[snip]

>>2) Put in a "do not archive" notice, so the ASC archivists just pass
>over the posts completely.

Why? I don't *want* to pass over the posts completely. Unless the
original author has an objection, of course, I would want to archive
these stories too. The fact that we are running an archive backlog
currently should not be a factor in whether these stories should be
archived or not, IMO.

--
Constable Katie Collecter/Formatter, ASC* Archive team
ASC* archive: http://archive.nu or http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/ascindex
ASC FAQs: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/FAQs
Submissions: submissions# webamused.com
Corrections: r.lerret# usa.net Remove "NOJUNK" or replace # to reply
For archive updates: ASC-Archive-a...@onelist.com

Katie Redshoes

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May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
On 11 May 1999 22:44:29 GMT in alt.startrek.creative,
rak...@aol.combunifufu (Raku2u) wrote:

>T'Kae wrote:
>
>>I hope the flood of overreactions the Foresmutters project prompted doesn't
>>stop anyone from posting old fanzine stories.
>
>Surely it's possible to post a dissenting opinion without it being called an
>overreaction?

FWIW, I was also taken aback by the phrase "a flood of overreactions."

Joyce Harmon

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
In article <373cf994....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
reds...@NOJUNKix.netcom.com says...

>
>On 11 May 1999 22:44:29 GMT in alt.startrek.creative,
>rak...@aol.combunifufu (Raku2u) wrote:
>
>>T'Kae wrote:
>>
>>>I hope the flood of overreactions the Foresmutters project prompted
doesn't
>>>stop anyone from posting old fanzine stories.
>>
>>Surely it's possible to post a dissenting opinion without it being called
an
>>overreaction?
>
>FWIW, I was also taken aback by the phrase "a flood of overreactions."

Really? I thought it was a pretty accurate description of some reactions
that I can only describe as juvenile, small-minded, and insecure. It
sounded to me like the younger sister, flouncing around complaining because
everyone thinks her elder sibling is so great. "I'm sick of hearing about
early K/S! I'm tired of hearing about the great old zines and how we should
all bow down.." etc, etc.

My reaction to quite a few of the posts on this thread is a weary "Grow up."

Joyce


Fizzbin

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
In article <3738fb6d$0$18...@mojo.crosslink.net>,
jlha...@crosslink.net (Joyce Harmon) wrote:

> Really? I thought it was a pretty accurate description of some
reactions
> that I can only describe as juvenile, small-minded, and insecure. It
> sounded to me like the younger sister, flouncing around complaining
because
> everyone thinks her elder sibling is so great. "I'm sick of hearing
about
> early K/S! I'm tired of hearing about the great old zines and how we
should
> all bow down.." etc, etc.
>
> My reaction to quite a few of the posts on this thread is a weary
"Grow up."

I was not taken aback by the description "a flood of overreactions", but
I was rather dismayed at the rather unfortunate phraseology.

As I am similarly dismayed by the tone of your response. I support the
Foresmutters Project, but I also think the dissenters have legitimate
concerns that are a product of their own experiences in fanfic. I
believe the object of this thread should be an amicable discussion of
the methods of posting, so that a means can be found to satisfy the
needs and interests of all the group's participants. Your post does not
further that pursuit. In fact, it is, essentially, a command "to sit
down and shut up" -- the very attitude that the dissenters
predicted and found so distasteful. As such, it is more likely to
precipitate a flame war than it is to build consensus.

We cannot do away with feelings born of experience that are keenly felt,
nor should we ignore the desire of others to explore the history of the
genre. Suggestions for a possible solution have been placed on the
table and a call has been made for discussion. Can you offer any
constructive opinion on those suggestions?

Joyce Harmon

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
In article <7hb5f1$d16$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, fiz...@my-dejanews.com says...

>
>In article <3738fb6d$0$18...@mojo.crosslink.net>,
> jlha...@crosslink.net (Joyce Harmon) wrote:
>
>> Really? I thought it was a pretty accurate description of some
>reactions
>> that I can only describe as juvenile, small-minded, and insecure. It
>> sounded to me like the younger sister, flouncing around complaining
>because
>> everyone thinks her elder sibling is so great. "I'm sick of hearing
>about
>> early K/S! I'm tired of hearing about the great old zines and how we
>should
>> all bow down.." etc, etc.
>>
>> My reaction to quite a few of the posts on this thread is a weary
>"Grow up."
>
>I was not taken aback by the description "a flood of overreactions", but
>I was rather dismayed at the rather unfortunate phraseology.
>
>As I am similarly dismayed by the tone of your response. I support the
>Foresmutters Project, but I also think the dissenters have legitimate
>concerns that are a product of their own experiences in fanfic. I

Legitimate concerns? All I've heard is people posting that they've had bad
experiences with zine fandom, which seems to me to have nothing to do with
the quality of the stories, and complaints that a) there's plenty of fanfic
and why post these others, and b) the posters are tired of the reverence
given to early K/S.

I don't even read K/S or TOS, but anyone who glances at the archives can
readily see that TOS is far and away the least represented of the four Trek
series. There are plenty of stories out there from the early days of zines,
good stories that have maybe been read by a grand total of several hundred
people. There are people here who want to read these stories. Should they
not be allowed to because a handful of people choose to take offense at the
tone of the framing intro?

>believe the object of this thread should be an amicable discussion of

Amicable? Quoting from earlier posts on this thread:

"But one of the things I grew extremely sick of was having the Glorious
History of K/S shoved in my face every time I turned around, which started
up the minute I entered that forum."

And this:

"But please, get the heralds down off the balcony. The trumpets are
drowning out the words."

And this:

"Why can't these stories just be posted? Why must there be a Foresmutters

Project? Part of what turns me off is the name. Smacks too much of


Founding Fathers, as if they're people we should automatically revere

and respect. They're fanfic writers, just like the rest of us. So they
should act like it. Instead, it feels like they're coming down from the
lofty heights, gracious generous deities, to share with us, the unworthy
scribblers. "

And this:

"I just find all this fanfare offensive and pretentious."

I can only conclude you have a different definition of 'amicable' than I do.

>the methods of posting, so that a means can be found to satisfy the
>needs and interests of all the group's participants. Your post does not
>further that pursuit. In fact, it is, essentially, a command "to sit
>down and shut up" -- the very attitude that the dissenters

I obviously gave no such command, but commented on the tone of the
'dissenters' posts, just as the dissenters commented on what they perceived
to be the over-reverential tone of the Foresmutters posts, and that the tone
made them somehow feel 'excluded'. Do you feel that the dissenters are
telling the Foresmutters to 'sit down and shut up'?

>predicted and found so distasteful. As such, it is more likely to
>precipitate a flame war than it is to build consensus.

I don't see how you can build consensus when the primary objection of the
dissenters seems to be that they don't like the respect that is being
offered to the pre-internet stories. Maybe it is pretentious, I don't know.
But from where I sit, it sure looks like people complaining because someone
else is getting more attention than they are.

>We cannot do away with feelings born of experience that are keenly felt,
>nor should we ignore the desire of others to explore the history of the
>genre. Suggestions for a possible solution have been placed on the
>table and a call has been made for discussion. Can you offer any
>constructive opinion on those suggestions?

You're asking for a 'solution' when I don't see a problem. Stories that
were printed in zines before the internet are being transcribed and posted
to the newsgroup, with the knowledge and consent of the stories' authors.
Most of the posts on this thread have been highly supportive of that effort.
A handful of posters, however, have complained about the project. I'd
think the solution would be for them to ignore it. Solves the alleged
'problem' just fine.

Joyce


Jungle Kitty

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
I said I was going to shut up, but I'm jumping back in for three
reasons.

1. I've been insulted.
2. I would like to try to put this in perspective.
3. I want to propose a compromise for the group's consideration.

On point 1: I think it's pretty ungracious of Joyce to lecture me, when
I've already apologized for my earlier statements. Twice. As to the
whole issue of needing attention: ASC, ASCEM, Judith, and Mary Ellen
have all been very generous to me with feedback. But I know that people
send feedback because they feel like it, and they like or dislike
stories for all kinds of reasons, and I really doubt that the presence
or absence of other stories has any impact on either of those things.
You guys have all been far too good to me for me to feel threatened.

Now the perspective:

Suppose someone posted a story to ASC where it was highly praised. A few
months later, they post it to ASCEM, but for some reason, they also post
all the glowing feedback it received on ASC. Wouldn't that seem strange?
Wouldn't it feel like the author was afraid the people on ASCEM wouldn't
realize what a good story it was?

That's how the Foresmutter stories feel to me, when they are posted with
a special designation, such as historically important. Like someone's
afraid we might not get it.

And now the compromise:

In a thread a while back on ASCEM, we were discussing whether or not we
wanted warnings on stories that included the death of a character. Most
people seemed to feel that they would rather let the story unfold as the
author intended, without that foreknowledge. In this current discussion,
some people have said that the introduction of the first of the
Foresmutter stories actually got in the way of them fully enjoying the
story, kind of like the death warning prevented people from feeling the
full impact of the story.

There are people who want to know and discuss the history of these
stories, and there are people who would rather read them fresh and be
allowed the luxury of their own response, without having it colored by
heightened expectations.

So how about this: Post the stories just like regular stories. No
history, either with the story, or as a separate informational post. Let
people read the story and discuss it if they're so inclined without
feeling like they may be going up against 20 years of history or the
endorsement of a quasi-official organization. Post the history a little
later, as part of the discussion, or perhaps just as the discussion is
dying down. It might even revive the discussion in a new and interesting
way.

Your thoughts?

Wildcat

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to Joyce Harmon
In reply to Joyce's first response, Fizzbin wrote:
> >As I am similarly dismayed by the tone of your response.

I thought the same thing as Fizzbin, and then I read your (Joyce's)
*second* response, which was even worse. There really wasn't any need
to get personal over this, but in my opinion, you did. Nasty, even.

Fizzbin also wrote:
> >We cannot do away with feelings born of experience that are keenly felt,
> >nor should we ignore the desire of others to explore the history of the
> >genre. Suggestions for a possible solution have been placed on the
> >table and a call has been made for discussion. Can you offer any
> >constructive opinion on those suggestions?

And you replied:

> You're asking for a 'solution' when I don't see a problem.

You don't see a problem? How many people have posted to this thread,
and how many points of view have we seen? If there's nothing to be
resolved, why the debate? To me, anything that inspires this sort of
reaction is worthy of at least some discussion. As a matter of fact,
Fizzbin very eloquently explained it to you. Are you proposing that we
simply shut down the discussion because you think it's the product of a
'handful' of dissenting opinions and therefore not worthy of attention?

Wildcat

Sydvick

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
>So how about this: Post the stories just like regular stories. No
>history, either with the story, or as a separate informational post. Let
>people read the story and discuss it if they're so inclined without
>feeling like they may be going up against 20 years of history or the
>endorsement of a quasi-official organization. Post the history a little
>later, as part of the discussion, or perhaps just as the discussion is
>dying down. It might even revive the discussion in a new and interesting
>way.
>
>Your thoughts?
>--
>Jungle Kitty
>http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
>
I vote no. I want to know that it is an older story and what zine it was from,
if possible. Jungle Kitty, I honestly think you are not thinking of the greater
good here, and you normally do. Many people have no idea of what went before. I
was one of those people. I had never heard of any of the zines mentioned, or
the stories. I also had no one to talk to about them, if I had heard about
them. This gives everyone who accesses this group a chance. If it is Mary
Ellen's sometimes overly enthusiatic prose you object to, then skip it and go
on to the story.

Perhaps we need to back away from the topic for a while as you wanted to before
and just let it play out. It will either be welcome or not by the readers. Let
the market have access as the designers planned, and the market will decide.

The story sits in the time it was written. All of us smutters and near smutters
write in the context of a wide open net, where people post question about
things like: why is there such a squick factor to my story on incest. Now I am
not an old entity, but my read of human history says that this was not always
possible. Treksmut has a 27 year history, let us enjoy the pearls and laugh at
the dross from it, but I object to any move to bury the historical place or
significance of the story. I want to know how it was received back then, or
not. Sensibilities change.

How many of the group are open about there sexual choices or interests now,
that would never have been 20years ago? Would you have gone to Bill Shatner
with a spanking list to sign, without years of Trek Smut to back you up? And if
so, would he have signed it. He knew what it was. He is use to the concept and
considers those zines stories to be " some of the most erotic stories he has
ever read."

As for the writers statement about the lack of desire for feedback, I did not
find it offensive in any way. I found it refreshingly honest.

I also find your comments to be honest and I appreciate them. I, however, must
respectfully disagree.

My mind can be changed entirely by a Brandt story with Kirk in the overalls and
nothing under them. I can be bought, but I'm not easy. It has to be a biiiigggg
one.( Am I talking about the story, JK wonders?) ; -D

Fizzbin

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to jki...@accesscom.com
In article Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com> wrote [with a little
typographical rearrangement]:

> So how about this:

1)


> Post the stories just like regular stories. No history,
> either with the story, or as a separate informational post.

2)


> Let people read the story and discuss it if they're so inclined
> without feeling like they may be going up against 20 years of
> history or the endorsement of a quasi-official organization.

3)


> Post the history a little later, as part of the discussion,
> or perhaps just as the discussion is dying down. It might even
> revive the discussion in a new and interesting way.
>
> Your thoughts?
> --
> Jungle Kitty

That sounds very much like a sensible protocol for posting -- it avoids
the spoilage of authoritarian "fanfare", while still giving us history
buffs the opportunity to place the story in time.

Wadda ya say, Mary Ellen? Does this do it for the Foresmutters?

Are there any alternative solutions that anyone would care to propose?


P.S. Thanks, JK, for coming back to work on this. I was worried...

--
Fizzbin
fiz...@my-dejanews.com
=======================
NOTICE: I'm ignoring the non-productive posts in this thread and
responding only to those that are seeking consensus. I refuse to engage
in xe said/zhe said. It serves no purpose. It achieves no end.

Laura Taylor

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
Sydvick wrote:
>
> >So how about this: Post the stories just like regular stories. No
> >history, either with the story, or as a separate informational post. Let

> >people read the story and discuss it if they're so inclined without
> >feeling like they may be going up against 20 years of history or the
> >endorsement of a quasi-official organization. Post the history a little

> >later, as part of the discussion, or perhaps just as the discussion is
> >dying down. It might even revive the discussion in a new and interesting
> >way.
> >
> >Your thoughts?
> >--
> >Jungle Kitty

> I vote no. I want to know that it is an older story and what zine it was from,
> if possible.

Then why not simply state those facts at the beginning? "This story
first appeared in <Name of 'zine> in the <Season/month and year>."

Although I am not as affected by this issue as some, having no interest
in K/S or TOS stories, I'm inclined to agree with those who object to
the fanfare. I've felt similarly let down by excessive hype in advance
of some stories posted to ASC, and would prefer to have the opportunity
to judge stories on their own merits, rather than the high praise of others.

Laura
--
=====

"Bad guys hatch from eggs."

--Drew Taylor

Fizzbin

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
In article <19990512084617...@ng156.aol.com>,
syd...@aol.comjoy (Sydvick) wrote:

> I vote no. I want to know that it is an older story and what zine it
was from,

> if possible. ...

Syvick, I think we may have already solved that problem. Jungle Kitty
has already agreed to most of the suggestions I made earlier (in fact
one of those suggestions regarding disclaimer material seemed to be
posted almost simultaneously by post of us). Mary Ellen already
indicated her acceptance of most of the suggestions. If you'll let me
recap, I think this is what both JK (as de facto representative of the
dissenters) and Mary Ellen (for the Foresmutters) have so far agreed
upon (someone *please* correct me if I'm wrong):

1) On the posts to the group, make the sender "Foresmutters Project" and
put the real author's byline in the text. This would alert readers
immediately to the special nature of the story, and those who are not
interested could just pass over it. It will also alert awards list
compilers that the story isn't eligible.

2) Put in a "do not archive" notice, so the ASC/EM archivists just pass
over the posts completely. FP stories will already be archived at a FP
site.

3) If the author doesn't want hir name given, use a simple "Name

Withheld" without further explanation -- a variation on Ascem Noone.

4) The disclaimer should simply state the origin of the story, e.g.,


"This story first appeared in the fanzine X in 19xx and is posted with

permission as part of the Foresmutters Project at [insert URL]. [Insert
Copyright notices if appropriate.]"

5) A periodic Status of Foresmutters FAQ might be posted to give notice
of web site additions and also to provide basic information on the
nature of Foresmutters for the benefit of group newbies.

Currently unresolved issue:

- Mary Ellen proposed a simultaneous but separate post of historical
notes.
- Jungle Kitty thinks this will still act as an authoritative spoiler
and, while withdrawing her objections to the posting of historical
material, asks only that it be done after the story post as part of the
discussion.

After some thought, I would like to add one more suggestion to those
already agreed upon:

- Some objection was made to the feedback notice in the original story
post. I think, going along with the "Name Withheld" proposal, the
author's email addy should be posted only *if* they do want feedback.
If the addy isn't posted, then feedback will naturally default to
discussion within the group -- no further explanation or instruction to
the readers would seem necessary.

So, I think we're closer to a consensus than you believe, and I for one
would much rather see one in place before wholesale posting begins. The
test run certainly seems to have caused problems -- I say let's solve
them first and so that we can be certain no one is harboring hurt
feelings.

BTW, Syd, I totally agree with the rest of your post. Here's a snippet
of something that I sent Mary Ellen off-line -- I think we may have many
of the same interests:

"I'm an on-again-off-again anthropologist in RL and this is just the
sort of stuff that's grist for my mill. Star Trek fandom has had a
*huge* impact on American popular culture. References to Trek are
everywhere, everyday. Seeing how it started and how it has changed over
the years would be invaluable to me.

Ever since I started lurking at ASC/EM, I've been astounded by the
changes that have come about in attitudes over 30-odd years. When I
first brushed up against fanfic, in the early 70s, there was very little
sex at all and almost no explicit material -- especially m/m. Stonewall
was only a couple of years in the past and people of differing
persuasions were just starting to come out of the closet. I'd love to
track the "outness" of Trek fic against the growth of openess in the
culture as a whole. What a gender studies project that would make! But
it ain't gonna happen if nobody preserves the material."

LL&P

--
Fizzbin
fiz...@my-dejanews.com
=======================
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd!" - Tom Lehrer

Jungle Kitty

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
Fizzbin wrote:
>
> That sounds very much like a sensible protocol for posting -- it avoids
> the spoilage of authoritarian "fanfare", while still giving us history
> buffs the opportunity to place the story in time.

That was my goal.

> P.S. Thanks, JK, for coming back to work on this. I was worried...

Fizz, I know this didn't come across, but part of why I brought up my
bad experiences with printfen was their failure to address the needs of
the entire community, wherever possible. I know Mary Ellen & Judith
don't intend any sort of negative effect, but I saw this semi-official
Stamp of Approval business as potentially having the unintended effect
of setting some sort of defacto standard. I didn't want to see that
happen to the newsgroup. No one's standards should be given any more
credence than anyone else's. I really do think my analogy about posting
to ASCEM with all the ASC feedback attached is a legitimate one. If the
story's a good one, we'll figure it out. And not everyone will have the
same response. They're entitled to that. There are people who want to
know the history, like you. I don't want to deny that to anyone. But I
do think there's value in separating the two. Let the stories stand on
their own, let them be experienced on the net the way they were first
experienced in print, let us have our responses, whatever they may be,
and then let's unveil the history that Jay is bringing down the aisle.

I think it may be interesting to compare our responses to how the story
was received years ago. But no real comparison would be possible if we
already know what that was. There's some scientific axiom about the
simple act of being observed changes the action of the person being
observed. Several people have pointed out that just knowing this story
is regarded by many people as the best fanfic ever colored their
perception of it. A fresh, new experience was denied them on that story.
When it's very simple to allow them that in the future, why not do it,
esp. if we can give the history buffs what they want as well?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jungle Kitty

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
Sydvick wrote:
>
> >So how about this: Post the stories just like regular stories. No
> >history, either with the story, or as a separate informational post. Let
> >people read the story and discuss it if they're so inclined without
> >feeling like they may be going up against 20 years of history or the
> >endorsement of a quasi-official organization. Post the history a little
> >later, as part of the discussion, or perhaps just as the discussion is
> >dying down. It might even revive the discussion in a new and interesting
> >way.
> >
> >Your thoughts?
> >--
> >Jungle Kitty
> >http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
> >
> I vote no. I want to know that it is an older story and what zine it was from,
> if possible.

Guess I wasn't clear. I have no objection to a simple statement such as
the one proposed by Laura: "This story first appeared in <Name of 'zine>
in the <Season/month and year>." But I don't see any reason to include
the reviews, or someone's analysis of why the story was received the way
it was or why it's considered a significant piece of writing. Couldn't
all that come later, after we've enjoyed the story on its own?

Sydvick

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
>Guess I wasn't clear. I have no objection to a simple statement such as
>the one proposed by Laura: "This story first appeared in <Name of 'zine>
>in the <Season/month and year>." But I don't see any reason to include
>the reviews, or someone's analysis of why the story was received the way
>it was or why it's considered a significant piece of writing. Couldn't
>all that come later, after we've enjoyed the story on its own?
>
>--
>Jungle Kitty
>http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
>
I have no problem with the informational snippet following the story instead of
proceeding it. I also want to know if the writer went on to become a
professional, writer, that is.

Laura Jacquez Valentine

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to

From: Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com>

>
> Guess I wasn't clear. I have no objection to a simple statement such as
> the one proposed by Laura: "This story first appeared in <Name of 'zine>
> in the <Season/month and year>." But I don't see any reason to include
> the reviews, or someone's analysis of why the story was received the way
> it was or why it's considered a significant piece of writing. Couldn't
> all that come later, after we've enjoyed the story on its own?
>

I completely agree with this. I did feel that the history given with
the first story (Freedom is Standing in the Light) set me up for a story
that, for me, didn't exist. The particular construction of that story
is one that has *never* done much for me emotionally--a type of story
I've always had trouble connecting with. It would have been a pleasant
enough, and interesting enough, story without the buildup, but with the
buildup I felt guilty for not thinking it was tremendous. I do want to
know some history: what zine it was in, and when, but beyond that...I'd
like to read it as itself and judge it for myself and not have to worry
about who's judged it before.

--laura
(not the Laura JK is talking about up there. I think that was Laura
Taylor.)


Joyce Harmon

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
In article <373996...@yahoo.com>, wildc...@yahoo.com says...

>
>And you replied:
>> You're asking for a 'solution' when I don't see a problem.
>
>You don't see a problem? How many people have posted to this thread,
>and how many points of view have we seen? If there's nothing to be
>resolved, why the debate? To me, anything that inspires this sort of
>reaction is worthy of at least some discussion. As a matter of fact,
>Fizzbin very eloquently explained it to you. Are you proposing that we
>simply shut down the discussion because you think it's the product of a
>'handful' of dissenting opinions and therefore not worthy of attention?

What I find most dismaying about this entire conversation is that people are
giving serious credence to points of view stating that these stories do not
belong on a.s.c., that they should be posted instead to a website, or not
mirrored to the mailing list. There seems to be a point of view out there
that these stories are somehow less worthy of this forum than others, and
the feeling is coming from the way the stories are being presented or the
way the poster was treated in non-internet fan interaction.

I'm sure Stephen will be chiming in with the FAQ any minute now, but
alt.startrek.creative is for the posting of fan fiction related to Star
Trek. These stories are fan fiction related to Star Trek. Stories are
posted here regardless of quality and age and place of original publication.

I think most people would be outraged if someone posted feedback saying that
a story that was posted here should never have been posted because it was so
bad. But what I'm hearing from this discussion is that some people feel
these stories shouldn't be posted because the Foresmutters (who are not the
original writers, though they have the writers' permission) think the
stories are so *good*, and that simply makes no sense to me at all.

These stories are Star Trek fan fiction. This is a newsgroup for the
posting of Star Trek fan fiction. Should Jane Doe in Des Moines not be able
to read a story that might interest her because Sue Smith in Texarkana got
her feelings hurt by a zine editor back in 1985, or whatever the posters'
objections to 'zine fandom' are?

Discussion of the introductions is valid, though it could be done to death,
like The Sentinel fandom does with its byzantine warning label system, but I
would hope more people would reject the proposition that the stories should
not be posted at all.

Joyce


Jungle Kitty

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
Joyce Harmon wrote:

> What I find most dismaying about this entire conversation is that people are
> giving serious credence to points of view stating that these stories do not
> belong on a.s.c., that they should be posted instead to a website, or not
> mirrored to the mailing list.

Laura, if you will re-read the thread, you will see that that suggestion
went by the way side some time ago. The discussion now seems to have
moved onto how the stories previous reviews should be handled.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jungle Kitty

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
Joyce Harmon wrote:

> What I find most dismaying about this entire conversation is that people are
> giving serious credence to points of view stating that these stories do not
> belong on a.s.c., that they should be posted instead to a website, or not
> mirrored to the mailing list.

Joyce, if you will re-read the thread, you will see that that suggestion


went by the way side some time ago. The discussion now seems to have

moved onto how the stories' previous reviews and statements about its
place in history should be handled.

Fizzbin

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to Jungle Kitty
In article <37393CB3...@accesscom.com>,
Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com> wrote:

> Fizzbin wrote:
> > That sounds very much like a sensible protocol for posting -- it
avoids
> > the spoilage of authoritarian "fanfare", while still giving us
history
> > buffs the opportunity to place the story in time.
>
> That was my goal.

Yes. And I think we're really close to finding the amicable settlement.

> Fizz, I know this didn't come across, but part of why I brought up my
> bad experiences with printfen was their failure to address the needs
of
> the entire community, wherever possible.

Actually, I think it did come across, and that's why I've been so
convinced that your needs, and the needs of the others that felt the
intro material a spoiler, had to be addressed if ASC/EM were to remain a
community. I think there were a few posters that lost sight of your
message in the midst of their own reaction to your manner of expression
-- pfhhht! Not worth worrying about. Better to have passion than
indifference. Things seem to be calming down somewhat, anyway.

> Let the stories stand on
> their own, let them be experienced on the net the way they were first
> experienced in print, let us have our responses, whatever they may be,
> and then let's unveil the history that Jay is bringing down the aisle.

Amen! Let's wait and see what Mary Ellen has to say.

> I think it may be interesting to compare our responses to how the
story
> was received years ago. But no real comparison would be possible if we
> already know what that was. There's some scientific axiom about the
> simple act of being observed changes the action of the person being
> observed.

"Schrodinger's Cat". As an anthropologist, i.e., participant-observer,
I am acutely aware of the dilemma of observation. I, too, think the
comparison between contemporary and historical responses would be a
valuable part of the discussion. And, that certainly would be derailed
if we knew at the top what the historical take was.

As I said in another post, I'm anxious to see how the genre has changed
along with the culture as a whole. I also think that the negative
experiences in fanfic that some, like you, have had do not stand outside
the discussion and should not be excluded from it -- those experiences,
too, drove the development of the genre. Every movement has its dark
side and, IDIC or not, Trekdom is no exception. I would hate to see us
delude ourselves into thinking that all is and ever was sweetness and
light.

I hope this all works out -- I have a good feeling about this now.

I'm about to go in for some eye surgery -- just an outpatient thing,
nothing drastic, but I will probably not be able to see well enough to
get back on line for a couple of days. I'll catch you when I get back,
and hope everything turns out well here.

--
Fizzbin -- crossing hir fingers

Fizzbin

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
In article <19990512120543...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,
syd...@aol.comjoy (Sydvick) wrote:

> I have no problem with the informational snippet following the story
instead of
> proceeding it. I also want to know if the writer went on to become a
> professional, writer, that is.

Good point! Maybe the next segment of the discussion should address
what type(s) of historical material group members want to see. We've
already got the following (mostly obvious):

1. author's name
2. zine
3. year of publication
4. history of subsequent publication
5. contemporary reviews
6. author's bio

Part of me would like to have some idea of what was going on in the wide
world in that year -- something that would place the piece in cultural
perspective. I don't think this should be an exhautive examination --
maybe just the relevant info from "Timelines of History", something to
provide a benchmark.

Maybe some background information on the zine itself?

Are there any other suggestions?

--
Fizzbin

TOS Lover

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May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
On 12 May 1999 12:13:22 -0400, Laura Jacquez Valentine

<jacq...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
>I completely agree with this. I did feel that the history given with
>the first story (Freedom is Standing in the Light) set me up for a story
>that, for me, didn't exist. The particular construction of that story
>is one that has *never* done much for me emotionally--a type of story
>I've always had trouble connecting with.

Okay, I've been rather quiet for the last few months and I was the
fool that started that awful discussion with Ordover about Fan and Pro
fiction. So, to make amends, I'm throwing my hat into this ring.

I feel that this is a forum where the readers should be able to draw
their own conclusions about a story, whether they liked it, how well
it was written and so on. I think that to precede a story with all
it's accolades gives it a build up that, in most cases, it can't live
up to, and also might inhibit more tentative readers from giving
honest feedback (If the author wants feedback).

It's kind of like when you're about to tell a joke and start going on
about how funny it is, and then you tell it.......and no one laughs.
(not that I'VE ever done that, you see)

But that said, I CAN'T wait to read some of those old stories.


Karen
TOS Lover

Laura Taylor

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May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
Laura Jacquez Valentine wrote:

> --laura
> (not the Laura JK is talking about up there. I think that was Laura
> Taylor.)

Yes, that was me. Man-o-man, we need to come up with a better
identification system for all us Lauras :-)

Laura (Taylor, for those keeping track)

Sydvick

unread,
May 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/12/99
to
> I'll catch you when I get back,
>and hope everything turns out well here.

The well wishes of the entity goes with you.
Peace and health Fizzbin

Katie Redshoes

unread,
May 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/13/99
to
On Wed, 12 May 1999 15:25:18 GMT in alt.startrek.creative, Fizzbin
<fiz...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:

>In article <19990512084617...@ng156.aol.com>,
> syd...@aol.comjoy (Sydvick) wrote:
>

[snip]

>
>2) Put in a "do not archive" notice, so the ASC/EM archivists just pass
>over the posts completely. FP stories will already be archived at a FP
>site.

For heaven's sake, WHY is it necessary to exclude these stories from
the ASC* Archive? Speaking as a member of the archive team, I object
to this. Our mandate as archivists is to archive every story posted
to ASC, ASCEM and ASCA -- unless the author specifies this, of course.

Joyce Harmon

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May 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/13/99
to
In article <37413e8b....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
reds...@NOJUNKix.netcom.com says...

>
>On Wed, 12 May 1999 15:25:18 GMT in alt.startrek.creative, Fizzbin
><fiz...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <19990512084617...@ng156.aol.com>,
>> syd...@aol.comjoy (Sydvick) wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>
>>
>>2) Put in a "do not archive" notice, so the ASC/EM archivists just pass
>>over the posts completely. FP stories will already be archived at a FP
>>site.
>
>For heaven's sake, WHY is it necessary to exclude these stories from
>the ASC* Archive? Speaking as a member of the archive team, I object
>to this. Our mandate as archivists is to archive every story posted
>to ASC, ASCEM and ASCA -- unless the author specifies this, of course.


*Thank* you, Constable Katie. And I wish someone would explain to me *why*
these stories are arousing so much hostility that the community (or at
least some members of the community) feels the need to create a whole
different set of rules for them.

Joyce


Sydvick

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May 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/13/99
to

Hey guys, I had nothing to do with any post about the Archivist passing stuff
over. Uh uh, didn't do it, wasn't me, doesn't sound prudent. Down George, down.
woof woof.

Fizzbin

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May 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/13/99
to
In article reds...@NOJUNKix.netcom.com (Katie Redshoes) wrote:

>
> Fizzbin <fiz...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> >2) Put in a "do not archive" notice, so the ASC/EM archivists just
pass
> >over the posts completely. FP stories will already be archived at a
FP
> >site.
>
> For heaven's sake, WHY is it necessary to exclude these stories from
> the ASC* Archive? Speaking as a member of the archive team, I object
> to this. Our mandate as archivists is to archive every story posted
> to ASC, ASCEM and ASCA -- unless the author specifies this, of course.

The idea was advanced earlier in the thread that the added volume might
be a problem for the archivists and, since the Foresmutters were
planning to develop their own website archive, it would take some of the
burden off the ASC/EM archivists. If archiving isn't a problem, the
suggestion is withdrawn.

Katie Redshoes

unread,
May 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/13/99
to
On Thu, 13 May 1999 06:11:19 GMT in alt.startrek.creative, Fizzbin
<fiz...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:

>In article reds...@NOJUNKix.netcom.com (Katie Redshoes) wrote:
>>
>> Fizzbin <fiz...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>>
>> >2) Put in a "do not archive" notice, so the ASC/EM archivists just
>pass
>> >over the posts completely. FP stories will already be archived at a
>FP
>> >site.
>>
>> For heaven's sake, WHY is it necessary to exclude these stories from
>> the ASC* Archive? Speaking as a member of the archive team, I object
>> to this. Our mandate as archivists is to archive every story posted
>> to ASC, ASCEM and ASCA -- unless the author specifies this, of course.
>
>The idea was advanced earlier in the thread that the added volume might
>be a problem for the archivists and, since the Foresmutters were
>planning to develop their own website archive, it would take some of the
>burden off the ASC/EM archivists. If archiving isn't a problem, the
>suggestion is withdrawn.

Archiving isn't a problem, so this particular suggestion should be
dropped. We are not short of space. And believe it or no, we *are*
making progress in our backlog! :-)

Katie Redshoes

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May 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/13/99
to
On 13 May 1999 04:47:20 GMT in alt.startrek.creative,
jlha...@crosslink.net (Joyce Harmon) wrote:

>>On Wed, 12 May 1999 15:25:18 GMT in alt.startrek.creative, Fizzbin
>><fiz...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>>
>>[snip]


>>
>>>
>>>2) Put in a "do not archive" notice, so the ASC/EM archivists just pass
>>>over the posts completely. FP stories will already be archived at a FP
>>>site.
>>
>>For heaven's sake, WHY is it necessary to exclude these stories from
>>the ASC* Archive? Speaking as a member of the archive team, I object
>>to this. Our mandate as archivists is to archive every story posted
>>to ASC, ASCEM and ASCA -- unless the author specifies this, of course.
>
>

>*Thank* you, Constable Katie. And I wish someone would explain to me *why*
>these stories are arousing so much hostility that the community (or at
>least some members of the community) feels the need to create a whole
>different set of rules for them.

I think there isn't so much hostility as confusion and a feeling that
the hype was overshadowing the stories themselves. And I'm relieved
to learn the reason for the suggestion of "do not archive" and am glad
to say that it's not necessary. We will be more than happy to archive
these stories unless the author specifies otherwise.

Laura Jacquez Valentine

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May 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/13/99
to

> From: Laura Taylor <dre...@roanoke.infi.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.startrek.creative
> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:48:54 -0500
> Organization: InfiNet

>
> Laura Jacquez Valentine wrote:
>
> > --laura
> > (not the Laura JK is talking about up there. I think that was Laura
> > Taylor.)
>
> Yes, that was me. Man-o-man, we need to come up with a better
> identification system for all us Lauras :-)
>
> Laura (Taylor, for those keeping track)

No kidding. I think we've added another Laura since our last go-around
of "introduce the Lauras".

A fair number of people say "Laura JV" when they're talking about me,
but not everyone does...

--laura (jv)


Gamin Davis

unread,
May 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/14/99
to
"Wildcat" wildc...@yahoo.com wrote in <3736F3...@yahoo.com>:
The fact that they hail from the "old days" is a curiosity
>to me, nothing less, nothing more. We've all heard about the
glories of
>the old zines--I think it's entirely possible we'll read these
stories
>and learn that they're not that much different than what we find
here on
>the net, today.

As someone who has read some of the old zines *and* some of
what is on the NGs, I thought I'd stick in my 2 cents' worth. I
haven't seen the posted story, but I've read as much of this
thread as RL will allow (messages were in the 100s by the time I
got back to the NG--sigh). I see no reason to object to these
stories being posted as long as the author gave permission
(however grudgingly) and the introductory fanfare is dispensed
with--let the reader determine for hirself whether or not all the
superlatives are warranted. Some people on this NG would, I'm
sure, enjoy enough of the stories (if Mary Ellen is planning to
post some of the stories I think she is) to keep it from being a
waste of bandwidth.
As far as them being "not that different" from what has been
posted on the Internet (and I base this solely on things I have
read or skimmed through on ASC/EM)--heh-heh--maybe, maybe not.
You might be surprised. The quality varies from story to story,
just as it does here, but...well, there are frankly certain older
zines that I enjoy...er...somewhat more consistently than I do the
stories here. It's a tad subjective, of course, but maybe you see
what I mean. I hope.

Gamin, jumping back out of the water *really quick*
so my toes don't get burned.


>
>WC

Stephen Ratliff

unread,
May 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/14/99
to

I take a couple days off then catch up before a weekend off (James has the
FAQ this week) and everyone gets uncivilized... This week is the Debate
FAQ, read it.

The Great Joyce Harmon wrote:
|In article <373996...@yahoo.com>, wildc...@yahoo.com says...
|>
|>And you replied:
|>> You're asking for a 'solution' when I don't see a problem.
|>
|>You don't see a problem? How many people have posted to this thread,
|>and how many points of view have we seen? If there's nothing to be
|>resolved, why the debate? To me, anything that inspires this sort of
|>reaction is worthy of at least some discussion. As a matter of fact,
|>Fizzbin very eloquently explained it to you. Are you proposing that we
|>simply shut down the discussion because you think it's the product of a
|>'handful' of dissenting opinions and therefore not worthy of attention?
|

|What I find most dismaying about this entire conversation is that people are
|giving serious credence to points of view stating that these stories do not
|belong on a.s.c., that they should be posted instead to a website, or not

|mirrored to the mailing list. There seems to be a point of view out there
|that these stories are somehow less worthy of this forum than others, and
|the feeling is coming from the way the stories are being presented or the
|way the poster was treated in non-internet fan interaction.
|
|I'm sure Stephen will be chiming in with the FAQ any minute now, but
|alt.startrek.creative is for the posting of fan fiction related to Star
|Trek. These stories are fan fiction related to Star Trek. Stories are
|posted here regardless of quality and age and place of original publication.

My cue:
Alt.StarTrek.Creative (ASC) is for the posting of creative StarTrek
Fan Fiction, poems, documentation, and other such works; discussion
of those works, Star Trek Fan works in general, and issues affecting
those works and the newsgroup in general.

|I think most people would be outraged if someone posted feedback saying that
|a story that was posted here should never have been posted because it was so
|bad. But what I'm hearing from this discussion is that some people feel
|these stories shouldn't be posted because the Foresmutters (who are not the
|original writers, though they have the writers' permission) think the
|stories are so *good*, and that simply makes no sense to me at all.
|
|These stories are Star Trek fan fiction. This is a newsgroup for the
|posting of Star Trek fan fiction. Should Jane Doe in Des Moines not be able
|to read a story that might interest her because Sue Smith in Texarkana got
|her feelings hurt by a zine editor back in 1985, or whatever the posters'
|objections to 'zine fandom' are?
|
|Discussion of the introductions is valid, though it could be done to death,
|like The Sentinel fandom does with its byzantine warning label system, but I
|would hope more people would reject the proposition that the stories should
|not be posted at all.

I second Joyce's commesnts as listed above. I note that the issue is being
slowly resolved. I'll comment more once I finish reading all this mess.

Stephen
--
Stephen Ratliff FAQ Maintainer: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/FAQs
Index Maintainer: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/ascindex
Personal Works: http://www.runet.edu/~sratliff/works

Alt.StarTrek.Creative's Very Busy Man.

Jungle Kitty

unread,
May 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/15/99
to
This never showed up, so reposting. Sorry if you get it twice.

Just had a facial, feeling really mellow and thoughtful. So, in yet
another attempt to bring this discussion back to the newsgroups where I
believe it belongs, I will say publicly what I have said privately: I am
no longer part of and will not respond to any private correspondence on
this subject. I think it's something that has to be settled by each of
the NGs involved. And each of the NGs may reach very different
conclusions.

I've been thinking a lot about this, and mainly wondering, "Why does
this bug me so much?" I think I figured it out.

It's the charter.

A few days before the first story appeared, the Foresmutteres posted
their charter. Don't know why no one questioned that, but I'm
questioning it now. Mods, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't changes or
additions to the charter or FAQ have to be approved by the group?

Now whoa there before you lynch me. I do NOT believe that Mary Ellen or
Judith had some master plan to sneak a charter modification past us. I
think it was an oversight. But please don't tell me that the charter was
a joke. You can't put the genie back in that bottle. I'm bringing this
up in a serious and thoughtful a manner, and I think it deserves some
consideration.

Here's how I see it (YMMV, and please say so):

If Judith, Mary Ellen, or anyone else wants to post old stories with the
writers' permission, I say more power to them. Post those puppies. If
you have a bunch all typed up and ready to go, bring 'em on. And post
the history any way you see fit. Before the story, after the story, at
the beginning, at the end, right in the middle of the climactic scene
where the Klingons take over the ship.

*As long as you are doing it as an individual, not as a chartered group.
As far as I know, you have not been granted a charter by any of the
newsgroups, either as a modification to the existing charters, or as a
subgroup within the newsgroups.*

I will defend to the death the right of any author or poster to include
whatever background they see fit in whatever manner they choose. The
readers are then free to respond by saying, "I would have enjoyed this
more if I hadn't known it was Colonel Mustard in the dining room with
the candlestick." The writer or poster is free to ignore this or modify
their future posts. I see this as no different from the bummer warnings
or "don't drink coffee while reading this" warnings, which are optional
and each writer makes hir own decision.

As I said, I will defend this right, but with the following stipulation:
post in the way all old stories are posted: NEW2ASC, NEW2ASCEM, or
NEW2ASCA. No special FSP designation, no charter. That assigns the
stories an artifical importance that has not yet been endorsed by the
newsgroups.

If, however, Mary Ellen, Judith, and anyone else who wants to be part of
the Foresmutters Project want their activities to be *chartered,* I
think they need to present that proposal to the group, in which case it
is entirely appropriate for the group to have the sort of discussion
we've been having, as to whether, how, and why these stories should be
handled. Once the group has made a decision, then the stories should be
posted according to the group decision, which may or may not include a
special designation such as FSP.

So I think the Judith and Mary Ellen have to decide who they want to be
when it comes to these stories. Do they want to be Judith and Mary
Ellen, free to post whatever they want, and with all the rights and
privileges contained therein? Or do they want to be the Foresmutters
Project?

If they want to be the Foresmutters Project, I see a charter issue, and
I suggest that they present a proposal to each of the newsgroups. If
their proposal is rejected or modified in a way they don't like, they
have lots of options. I can think of several, and there are probably
more.

1. Post the stories to the newsgroups, but without any special
designation or charter. ("We're just Judith and Mary Ellen" option.)

2. Do #1 above, but also post them on a Foresmutters website, where they
could charter anything they want. ("We're just Judith and Mary Ellen on
the newsgroup, but here on the website, we're the Foresmutters Project"
option.)

3. Do #1 above, *and* set up a new newsgroup with its own charter.
("We're just Judith and Mary Ellen on the other newsgroups, but this is
the Foresmutters Newsgroup" option.)

4. They could also choose to never post the stories to the newgroups,
and restrict them to a website or other newsgroup, something that a lot
of people would be very sad about. But again, it will be their option.

In conclusion <thank god!>, I want to be very clear that I am not
accusing anyone of anything. I think Judith and Mary Ellen felt that
they were giving a really nice gift to the newsgroup. I think a mistake
was made. The rights of the newsgroup were overlooked, with no malicious
intent on their part. I'm asking that the charter issue be addressed.

Jungle Kitty

unread,
May 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/15/99
to
Stephen Ratliff wrote:

> And should the P/T collective (to site one active group of writers) be
> required to do so as well?

I'm not familiar with them, so have no opinion on what they're doing.

> The Foresmutter's Project has put a proposal to the newsgroup.

Well, I didn't see it as a proposal. A charter isn't a proposal. But
since you've cleared up the charter business, and we've all been
chatting about it as if it was a proposal, I'll move on.

> I welcome group discussion or private e-mails in reguard to these issues.
> The responses will be summarized by myself in the FAQ Maintainer's Notes
> next Saturday, and the proposed changes announced. Objections well be
> taken for a week, before the changes being finalized in the FAQ the
> following week.

This is great! I was wondering how there was going to be any sort of
resolution to this, so I'm really glad to see that you've been following
along, Stephen, and are going to summarize and submit the summary to the
group. Thanks!

mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu

unread,
May 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/16/99
to
In article <373DBB69...@accesscom.com>,

Jungle Kitty <jki...@accesscom.com> wrote:
> It's the charter.
>
> A few days before the first story appeared, the Foresmutteres posted
> their charter.

First I heard of it.

We posted a "Manifesto", a declaration of intent on our personal parts.
(hmm, doesn't sound quite the way I intended, but you get the drift.)
We have no intention, thought, or notion to modify the charter(s) of
ASC*.

AFAIK, the ASC* charters have not been modified to give an official
imprimatur to "TSU", "Marissa", or other special designations in the
subject line. Nonetheless, these headers are used, and found useful by
the community. If people can designate some posts "TSU" for the
convenience of readers, why can't we mark some posts "FSP"?

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
- - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the Day:
"Buddy Holly Is Alive and Well on
Ganymede," by Bradley Denton

Stephen Ratliff

unread,
May 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/16/99
to
The Great Jungle Kitty wrote:
|This never showed up, so reposting. Sorry if you get it twice.
|
|Just had a facial, feeling really mellow and thoughtful. So, in yet
|another attempt to bring this discussion back to the newsgroups where I
|believe it belongs, I will say publicly what I have said privately: I am
|no longer part of and will not respond to any private correspondence on
|this subject. I think it's something that has to be settled by each of
|the NGs involved. And each of the NGs may reach very different
|conclusions.
|
|I've been thinking a lot about this, and mainly wondering, "Why does
|this bug me so much?" I think I figured it out.
|
|It's the charter.
|
|A few days before the first story appeared, the Foresmutteres posted
|their charter. Don't know why no one questioned that, but I'm
|questioning it now. Mods, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't changes or
|additions to the charter or FAQ have to be approved by the group?

Actaully... no. As a matter of course, I've made sure that I get the
consent of the group before I make changes in the FAQ in reguards to
Newsgroup policies. (Not information like who's who, or contact lists, but
things like story headers)

|Now whoa there before you lynch me. I do NOT believe that Mary Ellen or
|Judith had some master plan to sneak a charter modification past us. I
|think it was an oversight. But please don't tell me that the charter was
|a joke. You can't put the genie back in that bottle. I'm bringing this
|up in a serious and thoughtful a manner, and I think it deserves some
|consideration.
|
|Here's how I see it (YMMV, and please say so):
|
|If Judith, Mary Ellen, or anyone else wants to post old stories with the
|writers' permission, I say more power to them. Post those puppies. If
|you have a bunch all typed up and ready to go, bring 'em on. And post
|the history any way you see fit. Before the story, after the story, at
|the beginning, at the end, right in the middle of the climactic scene
|where the Klingons take over the ship.
|
|*As long as you are doing it as an individual, not as a chartered group.
|As far as I know, you have not been granted a charter by any of the
|newsgroups, either as a modification to the existing charters, or as a
|subgroup within the newsgroups.*

And should the P/T collective (to site one active group of writers) be


required to do so as well?

|I will defend to the death the right of any author or poster to include


|whatever background they see fit in whatever manner they choose. The
|readers are then free to respond by saying, "I would have enjoyed this
|more if I hadn't known it was Colonel Mustard in the dining room with
|the candlestick." The writer or poster is free to ignore this or modify
|their future posts. I see this as no different from the bummer warnings
|or "don't drink coffee while reading this" warnings, which are optional
|and each writer makes hir own decision.
|
|As I said, I will defend this right, but with the following stipulation:
|post in the way all old stories are posted: NEW2ASC, NEW2ASCEM, or
|NEW2ASCA. No special FSP designation, no charter. That assigns the
|stories an artifical importance that has not yet been endorsed by the
|newsgroups.

Well, if they want a FSP notation in the FAQ (Making it official) I think
we can do something about it... (I'll go into more of this later in this
post)

|If, however, Mary Ellen, Judith, and anyone else who wants to be part of
|the Foresmutters Project want their activities to be *chartered,* I
|think they need to present that proposal to the group, in which case it
|is entirely appropriate for the group to have the sort of discussion
|we've been having, as to whether, how, and why these stories should be
|handled. Once the group has made a decision, then the stories should be
|posted according to the group decision, which may or may not include a
|special designation such as FSP.
|
|So I think the Judith and Mary Ellen have to decide who they want to be
|when it comes to these stories. Do they want to be Judith and Mary
|Ellen, free to post whatever they want, and with all the rights and
|privileges contained therein? Or do they want to be the Foresmutters
|Project?
|
|If they want to be the Foresmutters Project, I see a charter issue, and
|I suggest that they present a proposal to each of the newsgroups. If
|their proposal is rejected or modified in a way they don't like, they
|have lots of options. I can think of several, and there are probably
|more.

It's not really a charter issue (Their posts fit in ASC's purpose, quite
neatly (I think I did a good job with writing that thing in '95)) It's an
organizational/administrative problem.


|1. Post the stories to the newsgroups, but without any special
|designation or charter. ("We're just Judith and Mary Ellen" option.)
|
|2. Do #1 above, but also post them on a Foresmutters website, where they
|could charter anything they want. ("We're just Judith and Mary Ellen on
|the newsgroup, but here on the website, we're the Foresmutters Project"
|option.)
|
|3. Do #1 above, *and* set up a new newsgroup with its own charter.
|("We're just Judith and Mary Ellen on the other newsgroups, but this is
|the Foresmutters Newsgroup" option.)
|
|4. They could also choose to never post the stories to the newgroups,
|and restrict them to a website or other newsgroup, something that a lot
|of people would be very sad about. But again, it will be their option.
|
|In conclusion <thank god!>, I want to be very clear that I am not
|accusing anyone of anything. I think Judith and Mary Ellen felt that
|they were giving a really nice gift to the newsgroup. I think a mistake
|was made. The rights of the newsgroup were overlooked, with no malicious
|intent on their part. I'm asking that the charter issue be addressed.

As I stated earlier in this post, it's not a charter issue, but an
administrative/organizational problem. Judith and Mary Ellen want to get
some of the old fanzine stuff posted to the newsgroup... no problem with
that. In order to do this, they organized themselves... really a necessary
step in order to prevent duplicated work. So they came up with a name for
themselves... surely no one would deny them that right, after all this
could be a project that will expand and contract in number of people
involved.

What does seem to be the problem... Well they posted a manifesto of what
the project was. Suddenly we have people doing something that ... gasp ...
isn't mentioned in the FAQ.

When I started as FAQ Maintainer way back in '95 we had another one of
these. You see, we had a lovely ftp archive, which was just under the new
management of Alara Rogers. Now someone wondered why we didn't have a http
index to that archive. Alara was still new to the job, and saw the demands
and said, no way am I going to do that. So a guy name Matt Steenberg
stepped forward and posted his index project... 3 years later, we have an
index to the archive that does most of the things he wanted done. The
differance... this one involves the posting of stories, stories that we all
want to see, but we fear that this is somehow going against our
organization. Back in '95 there was just me and Alara. At the begining of
'95 there was just Joe. Now we have 17 (This isn't a complete list but,
I'm trying: me, Katie, Dina, Ian, James, Sasscat, Ruth, Alexas, JJ, Jenny,
Ned, Anne, Kattz, J Jules (okay, who are the 4 I'm missing in the FAQ))

The Foresmutter's Project has put a proposal to the newsgroup. As I've
seen it, they have the following issues reguarding the FAQ:

1) They would like the use of the FSP prefix on their posts, as an
identifier. A precident for this, would be the AUTOPOST prefix used by the
Archivist Joseph Young between '92 and '95.

2) They require and explaination about their project either:
a) In a regularly posted accompanying post
b) In a regularly scheduled FAQ (most likely Reader's Guide) chosen
by the FAQ Maintainer.

The options are:
Issue 1: Yes or No
Issue 2: a, b, or No.

I welcome group discussion or private e-mails in reguard to these issues.
The responses will be summarized by myself in the FAQ Maintainer's Notes
next Saturday, and the proposed changes announced. Objections well be
taken for a week, before the changes being finalized in the FAQ the
following week.

Does this course of action satisfy everyone? If so, I've got to catch up
with my slow boat to China. I was trying to take this weekend off... oh
well.

Kattz

unread,
May 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/16/99
to
On Sun, 16 May 1999 03:18:02 GMT, mecu...@alumni.princeton.edu wrote:

>the community. If people can designate some posts "TSU" for the
>convenience of readers, why can't we mark some posts "FSP"?

Shouldn't that be "TFP" ??
(T)he (F)oresmutter's (P)roject

If you're going to use "FSP" then the name should be:
ForeSmutter's Project

better yet: ForeSmutter's Stories = FSS


Kattz
Index Summary Editor for Alt.StarTrek.Creative
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/1278/ASC-menu.htm

Fizzbin

unread,
May 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/16/99
to
In article <373e251b...@nntp.runet.edu>,
srat...@runet.edu (Stephen Ratliff) wrote:

> The Foresmutter's Project has put a proposal to the newsgroup. As
I've
> seen it, they have the following issues reguarding the FAQ:
>
> 1) They would like the use of the FSP prefix on their posts, as an
> identifier. A precident for this, would be the AUTOPOST prefix used
by the
> Archivist Joseph Young between '92 and '95.
>
> 2) They require and explaination about their project either:
> a) In a regularly posted accompanying post
> b) In a regularly scheduled FAQ (most likely Reader's Guide)
chosen
> by the FAQ Maintainer.
>
> The options are:
> Issue 1: Yes or No
> Issue 2: a, b, or No.
>
> I welcome group discussion or private e-mails in reguard to these
issues.
> The responses will be summarized by myself in the FAQ Maintainer's
Notes
> next Saturday, and the proposed changes announced. Objections well be
> taken for a week, before the changes being finalized in the FAQ the
> following week.

First, of all: Thanks, Stephen, for stepping in to do this!

On issue #1: I vote "yes" for the FSP designation. This will alert
readers, especially those who don't want to read the material, that this
is not a new work.

On issue #2: I vote "b", since adding FSP to the existing FAQs will
remove the question of FSP's legitimacy within the group.

With regard to other Foresmutters' debates, I still support the posting
of historical material regarding the stories, but separately and perhaps
following the posting of the actual story.

--
Fizzbin
fiz...@my-dejanews.com


"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd!" - Tom
Lehrer

Wildcat

unread,
May 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/16/99
to
Fizzbin wrote:

> With regard to other Foresmutters' debates, I still support the posting
> of historical material regarding the stories, but separately and perhaps
> following the posting of the actual story.

I'll second this, since the build-up ruined the story for me.

Wildcat

Michael Roy Hollihan

unread,
May 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/16/99
to
> On issue #1: I vote "yes" for the FSP designation. This will alert
> readers, especially those who don't want to read the material, that this
> is not a new work.
>
> On issue #2: I vote "b", since adding FSP to the existing FAQs will
> remove the question of FSP's legitimacy within the group.
>
> With regard to other Foresmutters' debates, I still support the posting
> of historical material regarding the stories, but separately and perhaps
> following the posting of the actual story.
>
> --
> Fizzbin

What the Fizzy One said! These are my votes as well. Historical
matters can be covered in a separate "0" part to the post, as in 0/1 or
0/3.

--
Michael Roy Hollihan
Memphis, Tennessee, USA
(Remove the NOT when hitting REPLY)

Time exists so that everything doesn't happen at once. (Buckaroo
Bonzai)

Education is the sleeping pill that makes dreams come true. (Peggy
Hill)

HAIKU: It's so lush
You float on a Valium
In your swimming pool.

>
> In article <373e251b...@nntp.runet.edu>,
> srat...@runet.edu (Stephen Ratliff) wrote:
>

> > The Foresmutter's Project has put a proposal to the newsgroup. As
> I've
> > seen it, they have the following issues reguarding the FAQ:
> >
> > 1) They would like the use of the FSP prefix on their posts, as an
> > identifier. A precident for this, would be the AUTOPOST prefix used
> by the
> > Archivist Joseph Young between '92 and '95.
> >
> > 2) They require and explaination about their project either:
> > a) In a regularly posted accompanying post
> > b) In a regularly scheduled FAQ (most likely Reader's Guide)
> chosen
> > by the FAQ Maintainer.
> >
> > The options are:
> > Issue 1: Yes or No
> > Issue 2: a, b, or No.
> >
> > I welcome group discussion or private e-mails in reguard to these
> issues.
> > The responses will be summarized by myself in the FAQ Maintainer's
> Notes
> > next Saturday, and the proposed changes announced. Objections well be
> > taken for a week, before the changes being finalized in the FAQ the
> > following week.
>

Darkling

unread,
May 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/17/99
to
On Sun, 16 May 1999 18:29:16 GMT, Fizzbin <fiz...@my-dejanews.com>
wrote:

>
>On issue #1: I vote "yes" for the FSP designation. This will alert
>readers, especially those who don't want to read the material, that this
>is not a new work.

I came in late on this discussion, but I take it some people want to
post ST fiction that originally appeared in a fanzine(s). From the
above comment, it sounds like some people don't want to read
stories from fanzines. Why not? A story's a story, isn't it? Should
it really matter if the stories appeared in fanzines first? The only
time I could see it being detrimental to post a fanzine story is if
the story was published in a fanzine a year or less ago or will be
published in an upcoming fanzine (both of which could be
detrimental to a fanzine's sales).

Now, I don't know all the history behind this discussion as I missed
the original post that began it all, but why couldn't a designation of
ZIN be used for any story that originally appeared in a fanzine?

Darkling


randylanders

unread,
May 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/17/99
to

Stephen Ratliff wrote in message <373e251b...@nntp.runet.edu>...

>The Great Jungle Kitty wrote:
(LOTS OF SNIPPAGE THROUGHOUT)

>|If Judith, Mary Ellen, or anyone else wants to post old stories with the
>|writers' permission, I say more power to them. Post those puppies. If
>|you have a bunch all typed up and ready to go, bring 'em on. And post
>|the history any way you see fit. Before the story, after the story, at
>|the beginning, at the end, right in the middle of the climactic scene
>|where the Klingons take over the ship.
>|
>|*As long as you are doing it as an individual, not as a chartered group.
>|As far as I know, you have not been granted a charter by any of the
>|newsgroups, either as a modification to the existing charters, or as a
>|subgroup within the newsgroups.*
>
>And should the P/T collective (to site one active group of writers) be
>required to do so as well?

Or for the matter, should Orion Press? After all, we've posted a large chunk
of TOS material, each story designated "Courtesy of ORION PRESS" -- I don't
recall any objections to this...

>What does seem to be the problem... Well they posted a manifesto of what
>the project was. Suddenly we have people doing something that ... gasp ...
>isn't mentioned in the FAQ.


LOL -- Yeah, that and the fact that this material is from fanzines, a media
many in the newsgroup have antipathy towards.

>The Foresmutter's Project has put a proposal to the newsgroup. As I've
>seen it, they have the following issues reguarding the FAQ:

>1) They would like the use of the FSP prefix on their posts, as an
>identifier. A precident for this, would be the AUTOPOST prefix used by the
>Archivist Joseph Young between '92 and '95.


Quite so.

>2) They require and explaination about their project either:
> a) In a regularly posted accompanying post
> b) In a regularly scheduled FAQ (most likely Reader's Guide) chosen
> by the FAQ Maintainer.
>
>The options are:
> Issue 1: Yes or No
> Issue 2: a, b, or No.


I think that FSP in the header along with a one or two line addendum to the
FAQ would be a nice explanation. I don't think such a designation would in
any way hinder the newsgroup, and I cannot believe all the fuss being raised
about something that would be appreciated by most readers/lurkers in this
newsgroup.

The original fiction in fanzines should be preserved. ORION PRESS has made
efforts to this affect with its fiction. I'm delighted to see FSP (this from
an anti-K/S person), and think it will be an asset to all of Star Trek
fandom.

Randy Landers
ORION PRESS


Stephen Ratliff

unread,
May 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/17/99
to

This is for a specific project that a group of people are trying to put
together to get some of those works on ASC.

Stephen Ratliff

unread,
May 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/18/99
to
The Great Darkling wrote:
|On Mon, 17 May 1999 20:19:40 GMT, srat...@runet.edu (Stephen Ratliff)
|wrote:

|
|>The Great Darkling wrote:
|>|Now, I don't know all the history behind this discussion as I missed
|>|the original post that began it all, but why couldn't a designation of
|>|ZIN be used for any story that originally appeared in a fanzine?
|>
|>This is for a specific project that a group of people are trying to put
|>together to get some of those works on ASC.
|>
|
|I realize that now. But won't it get unwieldly if other people decide
|to post other fanzine-oriented "projects"? You could wind up with a
|lot of extra header abbreviations and their respective definitions.

That is a good point... I'll look into the options. However, with the
controversey that this one has managed to provoke, I think this solution is
needed.

Stephen R1.

Darkling

unread,
May 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/18/99
to
On Mon, 17 May 1999 20:19:40 GMT, srat...@runet.edu (Stephen Ratliff)
wrote:

>The Great Darkling wrote:
>|Now, I don't know all the history behind this discussion as I missed
>|the original post that began it all, but why couldn't a designation of
>|ZIN be used for any story that originally appeared in a fanzine?
>
>This is for a specific project that a group of people are trying to put
>together to get some of those works on ASC.
>

I realize that now. But won't it get unwieldly if other people decide
to post other fanzine-oriented "projects"? You could wind up with a
lot of extra header abbreviations and their respective definitions.

Darkling

JWinterCNA

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May 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/18/99
to
>I realize that now. But won't it get unwieldly if other people decide
>to post other fanzine-oriented "projects"? You could wind up with a
>lot of extra header abbreviations and their respective definitions.

The headers aren't encouraged, but they do arise from time to time, and I can't
say they aren't useful. They are. They occur when something like Amagossa or
Infinity gets really big and requires its own notation. (Usually more than two
authors writing for a specific project.) I don't see this as any different
than the AMA or INF designations, other than that the latter are for "Other
Ships" stories. The principle remains the same. Big project. Multiple
writers, posters, etc.


J Winter,
Backup FAQ Maintainer
Alliance author
Troll stalker
SPAM slayer
Subversive element of the radical centrist movement

Gamin Davis

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May 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/18/99
to
"Fizzbin" fiz...@my-dejanews.com wrote in
<7hn2pq$1uq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:

>First, of all: Thanks, Stephen, for stepping in to do this!
>
>On issue #1: I vote "yes" for the FSP designation. This will
alert
>readers, especially those who don't want to read the material,
that this
>is not a new work.
>
>On issue #2: I vote "b", since adding FSP to the existing FAQs
will
>remove the question of FSP's legitimacy within the group.
>
>With regard to other Foresmutters' debates, I still support the
posting
>of historical material regarding the stories, but separately and
perhaps
>following the posting of the actual story.

I vote likewise. As for the history, as long as it's posted
separately from the rest of the story and identified as such in
the header, it shouldn't matter whether it becomes before or
after. If before, those who didn't want to read it would know not
to read anything marked "0/1-0/whatever".
Gamin


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