Fanzines and the Internet or "Whither Thou Goest, Orion Press?"
Randy Landers
lately. It seems that the Internet is absolutely destroying the need
for quality fanzines such as ours, and after two days in Orlando in
March of hearing fans say "Why should I pay you for your zines when I
can download it from the Internet for free?," I've decided that I have
no desire to attend another Star Trek convention.
I had already seen the stars I'd wanted to see long ago (fifteen to
twenty-five years ago, as a matter of fact), so the main reason I've
been going to conventions these past fifteen years is the enjoyment I
get from speaking with fans who, like me, are interested in creating,
illustrating, editing and reading new adventures for our favorite
crews.
However, the convention attendees at the last VulKon (who were snide
in their derision toward the notion of "paying for zines") have made
it quite clear than the very fanzines which got me involved in Star
Trek fandom in the first place are likely to be headed the way of the
dinosaur, the dodo bird and the passenger pigeon: extinction.
The number of written submissions have fallen, too, for ANTARES and
ERIDANI. Without submissions, we cannot do a zine. In the past three
years, we've already seen the cancellation of ORION, TANTALUS,
INTERLUDES and INVOLUTION. ERIDANI will be next at this rate. In the
past, when contributors left, new contributors were always coming in
to replace them. With the ease of posting material to the Internet,
the new contributors are NOT materializing, and, bless 'em, the older
ones (myself included) have moved on to other fandoms, or have had (as
in my case) real life intrude deeply into their free time, or simply
have lost interest in Trek altogether (thanks, in general, to various
bunglings by The Powers That Be).
And letters of comment? What's that? NO ONE WRITES LOCS ANYMORE. The
only reason folks write is to tell a story, which in essence, means
they want to get feedback for their work. Guess what? Very few folks
are even telling us 'good job, keep it up.' Instead, we get "Why was
there no ERIDANI this time?" and "How dare you cancel INVOLUTION! I
won't order again!" and "So & So says you suck, and I believe EVERY
word s/he says" and "Geez! You're zines are TOO EXPENSIVE! How much
money are you making off them?!!!"
*sigh*
Will I continue to do fanzines? Yes, for a time, as long as there are
enough readers to make it practical for me to do so. I love zines, and
I love writing them, editing them, trying to illustrate them and
publishing them. There's nothing like the joy I get in sitting down in
the bathtub or on the sofa with a glass of chocolate milk and with one
of our new releases, such as IDYLLS 18, OUTPOST 9 and CHEKOV'S
ENTERPRISE, and reading it from cover to cover. It's a satisfaction
that I have had a part in creating something lasting, even though it's
"just a zine."
Sales this year, though, have been horrible, and we're having our
worst year since leaving the vast Bill Hupe Publishing Empire. All
sales are down across the board, and, as such, I will be forced to
raise prices in January to compensate for the lack of sales, which may
lead to even fewer sales. It's a self-destructive trend, but it's one
I cannot avoid unless sales pick up dramatically. I have never been
into fanzines for the money, lord knows, there ain't any to be made
there. But as the head of a household and father of three, I cannot
afford to lose the kind of money we've lost to date this year.
I'm also bothered by the fact that our Internet site is extremely
popular, but few of these readers are actually buying even an
occasional zine. Given the expenses of maintaining the site (and
keeping it advertisement free), unless sales pick up (and donations,
too), the website will be going as well.
I'm not trying to be so down, my friends, but this is just how I see
it. I thought I'd give you some advance warning, and see if any of you
might have some ideas, some suggestion as to how we could continue.
And I'm a firm believer in venting steam, folks, and this has been
about six months in coming. The debate with John Ordover in the
Internet newsgroup alt.startrek.creative actually helped INVIGORATE me
over the summer, and I thought I'd've shaken it off by now, but I
haven't and I'm worried, and I'd actually like to hear from you...
--
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
--------------------------------------------------------------------
For 13MB of quality Classic Trek fan fiction, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders/archives/oaindex.html
For 7MB of quality Next Gen fan fiction, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~lindamarcusky/eridani/index.html
For 1MB of quality Deep Space 9 fan fiction, go to:
http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/outpost/index.html
For 1MB of quality Voyager fan fiction, go to:
http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/deltaquadrant/index.html
For information on ORION PRESS and its fanzines, go to:
http://www.mindspring.com/~randylanders
Michael Roy Hollihan
<Original post snipped, due to length>
Your post is two messages blended into one. You are lamenting the death
of your business and the changing of the landscape. My heart goes out
to you, it really does, but....
The Internet is changing *everything.* Get used to it. How many
hundred people do you figure used to read the fanzines of the 70's? How
many thousands are reading ASC, and the various web sites and archives?
And it *is* true--why should I pay you when I can get it from the author
cheaper? Admittedly, I *like* the feel of a book or 'zine, but I have
the devil's time getting hold of 'em sometimes. I can always print out
the story I want to read. The business person who profits from
connecting the author and reader is less important than ever before.
Again, the Internet and computers are changing everything. Information
is becoming freer and more available than ever before. The means of
distribution are so much cheaper and more accessible then ever. It's
tougher than ever to convince people to pay, when digitally precise
copies are usually free for the taking. Big corporations are having
major problems protecting their investments in the face of this.
You need a new business model, Randy. And if you discover one that
works, you'll be a millionaire many times over, as others will want to
know how you did it. Good luck....
As for change, well again--deal with it. Do you remember mimeo? The
delicious smell and feel of it? The wonderful purple ink, and how there
were *always* typos that got past you, no matter how careful you were?
And the hand-drawn-right-on-the-page artwork? Copiers and DTP killed
that forever. Personally, I prefer them to mimeo, but the memories
remain.... Do I want to bring it back and make it work? No, not
really. I mourned its passing and enjoy what replaced it. And the
writing still keeps coming.
Sounds more to me that you are getting older and having to face a world
that is different from the world that you are used to living in. I hate
it too, but that's just a part of life that you'll have to make your own
peace with.
Your love of good stories and the desire to share them with a community
of people is what's most important. You just need to find a new way to
pursue it. Let go of old assumptions and really *see* what's going on
around you. Look at the tools you now have and develop new skills.
Welcome to the brave new world, same as the old one--just different.
Mike Hollihan
Memphis, Tennessee, USA
(Remove the NOT when hitting REPLY)
Gabrielle Lawson
Randy Landers wrote:
a lot. I'll reply to some of it, but with the perspective of a person who
was
introduced to fan fic through the internet, and is usually disappointed
with
print zines that she had to pay for.
> I've been soul-searching regarding my involvement with ORION PRESS
> lately. It seems that the Internet is absolutely destroying the need
> for quality fanzines such as ours, and after two days in Orlando in
> March of hearing fans say "Why should I pay you for your zines when I
> can download it from the Internet for free?," I've decided that I have
> no desire to attend another Star Trek convention.
Yes. It's true. I've read drek here (won't name names) but also gems. I'm
really
quite glad I didn't actually have to pay for the drek. I'm a bit of a
miser. I hate
throwing money away or paying for a disappointment. I don't get that with
the net. I may get a disappointment, but I haven't paid for it. Nothing
lost,
nothing gained. I've paid for a few zines (not Orion, though I've gotten
two
of those for free). I didn't feel that the first one I paid for was worth
they cost.
And it wasn't expensive. And to be honest, I was glad I hadn't paid for
the
Orion ones, though the later one was better than the earlier. I don't
like to
give negative feedback, so I didn't say anything. I just didn't order any
more
zines.
The Internet provides more stories, for free, and more readers (that are
visible.)
Some people still prefer a print zine in some cases. My solution with my
latest story (Oswiecim, the huge one) was to offer it both ways. And I
have gotten orders. More than 20 in the last month. I only print what is
ordered so I don't lose money or make it. And I get feedback on the
net and in writing. Sometimes from the same people.
> However, the convention attendees at the last VulKon (who were snide
> in their derision toward the notion of "paying for zines") have made
> it quite clear than the very fanzines which got me involved in Star
> Trek fandom in the first place are likely to be headed the way of the
> dinosaur, the dodo bird and the passenger pigeon: extinction.
Fanzines are more expensive than novels which are generally of better
quality. (Not always. Laertian Gamble will long be an example of that.)
My story costs $15.75. I thought, why would someone want to pay that
(plus postage)/ I debated it with my mailing list, people who do buy
fanzines. Some said they liked a longer story in print form and have paid
upward of $20 for them. They convinced me to offer it in print. But I
didn't give up on the Internet. I get readers via e-mail, via WWW, and
via print.
> The number of written submissions have fallen, too, for ANTARES and
> ERIDANI. Without submissions, we cannot do a zine. In the past three
> years, we've already seen the cancellation of ORION, TANTALUS,
> INTERLUDES and INVOLUTION. ERIDANI will be next at this rate. In the
> past, when contributors left, new contributors were always coming in
> to replace them. With the ease of posting material to the Internet,
> the new contributors are NOT materializing, and, bless 'em, the older
> ones (myself included) have moved on to other fandoms, or have had (as
> in my case) real life intrude deeply into their free time, or simply
> have lost interest in Trek altogether (thanks, in general, to various
> bunglings by The Powers That Be).
And why submit to a fanzine? I did once because someone asked me
personally.
Someone I consider an e-friend. But the result was disappointing. A
first
draft was used rather than the edited copy I sent them. The scenes
weren't divided.
My work was not displayed in its best form. I've gotten feedback from the
editors,
my two test readers and perhaps three other people since the zine was put
out
late last month. And I can't put it on my web site or post it to asc for
a year (two
years if it was Orion, right?). I could get more feedback on the net.
Definitely,
and I'd know what quality it was posted with because I'd be responsible
for it.
> And letters of comment? What's that? NO ONE WRITES LOCS ANYMORE. The
> only reason folks write is to tell a story, which in essence, means
> they want to get feedback for their work. Guess what? Very few folks
> are even telling us 'good job, keep it up.'
How much easier is it to send an e-mail saying "I loved your story." A
good story will
get more than that. To date, I've recieved feedback via e-mail or web
page from
43 people since I posted Oswiecim in September (or was it August.) I have
gotten
feedback from three people in the mail, and three people in person (my
siblings).
More on the net. Same with If It's Not One Thing....
> Instead, we get "Why was
> there no ERIDANI this time?" and "How dare you cancel INVOLUTION! I
> won't order again!" and "So & So says you suck, and I believe EVERY
> word s/he says" and "Geez! You're zines are TOO EXPENSIVE! How much
> money are you making off them?!!!"
I'm sorry to hear you got such rude mail. Why send a letter if you're
only going
to be rude and insulting?
> Will I continue to do fanzines? Yes, for a time, as long as there are
> enough readers to make it practical for me to do so. I love zines, and
> I love writing them, editing them, trying to illustrate them and
> publishing them. There's nothing like the joy I get in sitting down in
> the bathtub or on the sofa with a glass of chocolate milk and with one
> of our new releases, such as IDYLLS 18, OUTPOST 9 and CHEKOV'S
> ENTERPRISE, and reading it from cover to cover. It's a satisfaction
> that I have had a part in creating something lasting, even though it's
> "just a zine."
I get quite a joy (didn't think I would) from holding Oswiecim, with my
drawing on the cover, in my hands. But I also get a joy from seeing
it on my site (It has a counter. I can see how many hits it's getting.
Want to know? Currently 123 on the last chapter of Oswiecim.)
> Sales this year, though, have been horrible, and we're having our
> worst year since leaving the vast Bill Hupe Publishing Empire. All
> sales are down across the board, and, as such, I will be forced to
> raise prices in January to compensate for the lack of sales, which may
> lead to even fewer sales. It's a self-destructive trend, but it's one
> I cannot avoid unless sales pick up dramatically. I have never been
> into fanzines for the money, lord knows, there ain't any to be made
> there. But as the head of a household and father of three, I cannot
> afford to lose the kind of money we've lost to date this year.
So don't lose money. Print only what is ordered. Price them at cost
of production for one copy plus postage. Then print as ordered. I
have only lost money by printing one for myself and one for Siddig
El Fadil as a gift.
> I'm also bothered by the fact that our Internet site is extremely
> popular, but few of these readers are actually buying even an
> occasional zine. Given the expenses of maintaining the site (and
> keeping it advertisement free), unless sales pick up (and donations,
> too), the website will be going as well.
Be bothered. Please. Produce a better zine and let us know that
somehow. I don't buy zines as a general rule. If I don't buy them, why
should others buy mine, I though. I've learned though,
that if people like your story (or hear from someone else that it's worth
the money) they'll buy it. I've had people order a copy when they'd
already
read the story online. Why? They thought it was damned good and wanted
a copy for keeps. They knew the story was worth the money. Some of
them then wanted a print copy of my other stories. I'm happy with
the results. Elated.
You tried such a thing by offering an occasional free zine and I thank you
for the opportunity. While there were some story blurbs that sounded
interesting, I was not impressed with the writing of the free zines enough
to pay for others. How could I trust they would be worth the money?
As for the site, I'm waiting for more DS9 stories to be posted there. The
ones
that sounded interesting. Buy why pay for the site? There are a lot of
free sites out there. Okay, so on GeoCities you have to have a GeoGuide
or pop-ups. The GeoGuide isn't so bad and actually gets ignored 99% of the
time. It sits at the top and doesn't get in the way. The site is free,
doesn't
cost me a thing.
> I'm not trying to be so down, my friends, but this is just how I see
> it. I thought I'd give you some advance warning, and see if any of you
> might have some ideas, some suggestion as to how we could continue.
Try to work with the new technology instead of letting it defeat you.
Get a free site. Offer the stories for free. Get good stories. Really
good stories. Stories worth money. Then offer them in print for
those who 1) don't have internet access or 2) want to hold the story
in their hands. There has to be a really good incentive for paying
for something you can get for free.
As for submissions, make it more attractive to authors. It's not
attractive enough for me at the moment. I'll stay here on the net
and publish my own stories.
> And I'm a firm believer in venting steam, folks, and this has been
> about six months in coming.
Vent away, just be constructive. Look for solutions. Don't just
throw in the towel.
--
--Gabrielle
I'd rather be writing!
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/2460
MAC
Randy Landers heeft geschreven in bericht
<70jg3g$35r$1...@samsara0.mindspring.com>...
>I've been soul-searching regarding my involvement with ORION PRESS
>lately. It seems that the Internet is absolutely destroying the need
>for quality fanzines such as ours, and after two days in Orlando in
>March of hearing fans say "Why should I pay you for your zines when I
Much as I like getting free fanfic, NOTHING beats laying back after a really
tough day and reading a good fanzine in bed. I'll NEVER give up such
pleasure. Print zines are so much better than the crap that the pros keep
throwing at us. I've become totally commited to buying mostly print zines
now.
The one problem I have IS the feedback. It's easier to feedback by e-mail,
so maybe if and e-mail addy was prited with each story the authors would get
more.
Randy it's mainly because of you that I've bothered to continue continue my
fanfic interest. I think ORION does it right in all areas and the prices ARE
NOT too high.
MAC
marta rodriguez
these materials available on line for a fee, of course. I'd love to read
the stories that appear on the Trek zines, but they are in print, and
well, the mechanics of converting them to braille or some sort of speech
output can be a little bit more complicated without a scanner. Ever since
I got hooked on Trek I've read of the wonderful stories created by the
fans in these zines, especially during those pre TNG years, when Paramount
was dragging its feet on committing to any Trek projects. It would be
a shame if those wonderful creations were lost to us all on account of the
Net. After all, this medium is supposed to provide more access to
information and/or entertainment, and a broader market for those who
provide it. I see no reason why fanfic avenues like the web sites or the
newsgroups can't coexist with the zines in a manner that is profitable for
both. I certainly would be willing to buy subscriptions for those zines
were they available online. I don't because I don't read print and at
present don't have a scanner. But I don't see the free story sites as a
means of getting around the subscription fee. If anything, it's wet my
appetite for more. I can't be the only Trek fan who feels this way.
Though I like all incarnations of Trek, I tend to prefer TOS stories.
Sometimes, (well most of the time) I tend to prefer stories featuring
Spock. The newsgroups and web sites don't provide that specialization,
nor should they, but the zines can. I really hope that people involved
with the zines like yourself consider the possibility of online
distribution as you're figuring out what to do with these publications.
It would be a shame to lose them. Be well.
T'Marta
kira_...@my-dejanews.com
I am absolutely new to the fanficition scene. I have been on the internet for
a couple of years, but never knew this world existed until a few weeks ago. I
just recently ordered my first fanzine (outpost 9) from Orion. So I have no
idea what these fanzines entail. But what I have to say is that perhaps it
would be wise to "advertise" a little more. I mean I've been on the net for
quite some time but I never knew about Fanfiction. It was a completely
unknown concept to me.
Perhaps there are more folks like that out there? As for printed fanzines and
those you get on the net. I think it will be most interesting to see a 'zine.
If I will like it more than the stories on the net remains to be seen. But I
know I usually like to print the stories from the net, because it's much more
fun reading them from the printouts than on the screen.
Keep going Randy,
Don't give up and if I like this fanzine. I'll be sure to order more of them
kira-nerys
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/5789/
Gul Dukat's Romantic Homepage
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Sydvick
Killashandra, as well as Mindsweeper, i began to write, because I began to
write, I had a desire to see what had already been written, because I had
wanted to look at fanzines, I started to buy them, because I started to buy
them,I started to write for them, because I started to write for them, I sent
my first story off to attempt to get it published. Do you get my drift?
Fanzines are an integral part of Fandom, but so is the net. There is alot of
fiction on the net;, there is not alot of good fiction on the net; and there is
very little great fiction on the net.
Unfortunately, the newer fanzines reflect the same pattern, some of the stories
are poorly written, with weak characterizations. High quality will sell,
regardless. So, if you continue to stretch and produce work that is well
written, I think there will always be a place for fanzines. I think your
business may have to be leaner though. I have purchased your zines and will
continue to do so when the story or the writer intrique me. Some of the zines I
have purchased from you do not have stories that have the depth of
characterization that I require for a good nights read. They tend to be more
acton oriented and less relationship or issue oriented. Some of your stories do
scratch my itch, like Rottler's. That does not say the rest are not good, they
just don't scratch my itch. I tend to believe there are more people out there
that will enjoy those type of stories, than not. Don't give up, just get tough.
gort, klatu barata nicto or dont wipe out these stupid earthlings just yet
there still is some hope for them.
A. LANGSDORF
As someone whose first exposure to fanfiction was through the Internet,
I'm a little surprised that you sound so negative about it.
I have bought fanzines (many of them, but no Star Trek zines) and while
some of them are WELL worth the money, several of them were disappointing
in that while the story was nicely proofread and displayed, it was also
very flat (poor characterization or plot or both).
I have no problem giving LoC, but it is MUCH easier to send feedback to an
author via e-mail. No zine I know of has a direct-to-author address,
while anything posted on USENET will have the posters e-mail address
attached. If I don't know WHERE to send a letter to, I can't.
And printzines ARE expensive, especially with the cost of paper continuing
to rise. Why should a pay $15 to $20 dollars for a zine with only has
one author (or show if it's a multimedia zine) I like and in which the
artwork is either poor or distracting (I tend to be very picky about
artwork) .
And while they are plenty of bad writers out here, I am not PAYING to see
their bad writing. I can skip a incoherent story and never miss it on the
internet, but if I have a printzine with a bad story in it, I feel like I
am missing 1/6 (or whatever fraction it is) of what I paid for.
Later,
AnneL
Jon Andersen
<SNIP>
>The Internet provides more stories, for free, and more readers (that are
>visible.)
>Some people still prefer a print zine in some cases. My solution with my
>latest story (Oswiecim, the huge one) was to offer it both ways. And I
>have gotten orders. More than 20 in the last month. I only print what is
>ordered so I don't lose money or make it. And I get feedback on the
>net and in writing. Sometimes from the same people.
<SNIP>
>And why submit to a fanzine? I did once because someone asked me
>personally.
>Someone I consider an e-friend. But the result was disappointing. A
>first
>draft was used rather than the edited copy I sent them. The scenes
>weren't divided.
>My work was not displayed in its best form. I've gotten feedback from the
>editors,
>my two test readers and perhaps three other people since the zine was put
>out
>late last month. And I can't put it on my web site or post it to asc for
>a year (two
>years if it was Orion, right?). I could get more feedback on the net.
>Definitely,
>and I'd know what quality it was posted with because I'd be responsible
>for it.
<SNIP>
>Randy wrote:
>> I'm also bothered by the fact that our Internet site is extremely
>> popular, but few of these readers are actually buying even an
>> occasional zine. Given the expenses of maintaining the site (and
>> keeping it advertisement free), unless sales pick up (and donations,
>> too), the website will be going as well.
>Be bothered. Please. Produce a better zine and let us know that
>somehow. I don't buy zines as a general rule. If I don't buy them, why
>should others buy mine, I though. I've learned though,
>that if people like your story (or hear from someone else that it's worth
>the money) they'll buy it. I've had people order a copy when they'd
>already
>read the story online. Why? They thought it was damned good and wanted
>a copy for keeps. They knew the story was worth the money. Some of
>them then wanted a print copy of my other stories. I'm happy with
>the results. Elated.
>As for the site, I'm waiting for more DS9 stories to be posted there. The
>ones
>that sounded interesting. Buy why pay for the site? There are a lot of
>free sites out there. Okay, so on GeoCities you have to have a GeoGuide
>or pop-ups. The GeoGuide isn't so bad and actually gets ignored 99% of the
>time. It sits at the top and doesn't get in the way. The site is free,
>doesn't
>cost me a thing.
>Randy wrote:
>> I'm not trying to be so down, my friends, but this is just how I see
>> it. I thought I'd give you some advance warning, and see if any of you
>> might have some ideas, some suggestion as to how we could continue.
>Try to work with the new technology instead of letting it defeat you.
>Get a free site. Offer the stories for free. Get good stories. Really
>good stories. Stories worth money. Then offer them in print for
>those who 1) don't have internet access or 2) want to hold the story
>in their hands. There has to be a really good incentive for paying
>for something you can get for free.
>As for submissions, make it more attractive to authors. It's not
>attractive enough for me at the moment. I'll stay here on the net
>and publish my own stories.
Okay, I've snipped most of the stuff, and only kept the stuff relavent to
my reply.
I edit a zine myself - Dark Circus - which is a Dr Who essay zine, and it
occasionally puts out a fiction issue for stories longer than the regular
issues can contain. I've found that fiction zines, at least in Australia,
tend to be less popular than 'regular' zines as a general rule. This is just
an observation mind you - perhaps there's something missing that people want
and you don't offer?
As to the site, what you might try and do is only offer part of the story at
the webpage, say half of it. Try to lure people in - if they like the story
and want to see how it ends, they might be more inclined to purchase the zine.
Of course, then you have the problem of exchange rates if people from O/S
want to buy your zine, problems that don't exist when they access the stories.
I'm probably rambling here - I have this oddest feeling of dissociation atm
build high for happiness
jon
a
Jon Andersen
>As someone whose first exposure to fanfiction was through the Internet,
>I'm a little surprised that you sound so negative about it.
>I have no problem giving LoC, but it is MUCH easier to send feedback to an
>author via e-mail. No zine I know of has a direct-to-author address,
>while anything posted on USENET will have the posters e-mail address
>attached. If I don't know WHERE to send a letter to, I can't.
You could always get the zine to forward the letter 8)
>And printzines ARE expensive, especially with the cost of paper continuing
>to rise. Why should a pay $15 to $20 dollars for a zine with only has
>one author (or show if it's a multimedia zine) I like and in which the
>artwork is either poor or distracting (I tend to be very picky about
>artwork) .
This is the second time someone has mentioned such chunky sums of money.
Do you honestly mean that you pay that much for zines over in america?!?
How big/thick are they? Here in australia, the average zine is around $2-$3
dollars, with 12-24 pages on average depending on what it's about
build high for happiness
Jon
Laura Taylor
I can speak only for the one 'zine I'm directly involved with, but
Outpost 9 is about 150pp (6 stories, a poem, an essay and illustrations)
and costs a little over $15.00. Oh, and each author who has 'Net access
has their e-addy listed with their bio.
Laura
--
=====
"Look, Mommy, I'm Gul Dukat! Kill me!"
Drew Taylor
Gabrielle Lawson
Jon Andersen wrote:
> This is the second time someone has mentioned such chunky sums of money.
> Do you honestly mean that you pay that much for zines over in america?!?
> How big/thick are they? Here in australia, the average zine is around $2-$3
> dollars, with 12-24 pages on average depending on what it's about
Just a breakdown for examples. These include printing prices only, you'd have
to add shipping to whatever neck of the woods you want them sent to. These
are my DS9 stories that I offer in print versions.
Oswiecim -- 185 pages, plus cover art. $15.75
If It's Not One Thing.... -- 158 pages, plus cover art $14.35
Healer-- 10 pages, plus cover art $4.60.
Gabrielle Lawson
Laura Taylor wrote:
> I can speak only for the one 'zine I'm directly involved with, but
> Outpost 9 is about 150pp (6 stories, a poem, an essay and illustrations)
> and costs a little over $15.00. Oh, and each author who has 'Net access
> has their e-addy listed with their bio.
I'm curious as to how you get those printed. I can get more pages
printed for less money. Or are you including shipping prices? If so,
then you've got more pages for less money.
Randy Landers
<<As someone whose first exposure to fanfiction was through the
Internet,
I'm a little surprised that you sound so negative about it.>>
My first exposure to fandom was through fanzines, so it's
understandable that the prospect of losing what brought me into fandom
in the first place would be disconcerting at best. *chuckle* How'd you
like it if the Internet disappeared?
<<I have bought fanzines (many of them, but no Star Trek zines) and
while
some of them are WELL worth the money, several of them were
disappointing
in that while the story was nicely proofread and displayed, it was
also
very flat (poor characterization or plot or both).>>
Characterization isn't always an easy thing. For example, John Ordover
perfectly illustrated the problem with Bashir. Do you write him as the
boy-wonder, or as the secretly-genetically enhanced superhuman, or as
the Changeling in disguise? And Kira? She's had more changes in her
characterization on the show than I would ever have believed possible.
<<I have no problem giving LoC, but it is MUCH easier to send feedback
to an
author via e-mail. No zine I know of has a direct-to-author address,
while anything posted on USENET will have the posters e-mail address
attached. If I don't know WHERE to send a letter to, I can't.>>
Most folks who don't provide their addresses want to protect their
privacy. Our website has HTML tags that allow some authors to be
contacted directly. Guess what? Most have never heard from 99% of the
folks who've read their stories.
<<And printzines ARE expensive, especially with the cost of paper
continuing
to rise. Why should a pay $15 to $20 dollars for a zine with only
has
one author (or show if it's a multimedia zine) I like and in which the
artwork is either poor or distracting (I tend to be very picky about
artwork) .>>
I'd say you haven't seen one of our zines. The website has sample
artwork; most of the art we've printed in pretty darn good.
<<And while they are plenty of bad writers out here, I am not PAYING
to see
their bad writing. I can skip a incoherent story and never miss it on
the
internet, but if I have a printzine with a bad story in it, I feel
like I
am missing 1/6 (or whatever fraction it is) of what I paid for.>>
Actually, you _are_ paying for it through your Internet fees. And in
case you haven't noticed, the phone companies are adding a new Federal
surcharge on Internet usage on your phone bill. One month's bill for
unlimited access can be, say $19.95. That's more than the price of a
zine. And you may get more fiction, but you might find that the number
of quality stories you find on line may be less than the number of
stories in a given fanzine.
Randy Landers
<<Some people still prefer a print zine in some cases. My solution
with my
latest story (Oswiecim, the huge one) was to offer it both ways. And
I
have gotten orders. More than 20 in the last month. I only print
what is ordered so I don't lose money or make it.>>
Well, we don't lose money on printing novellas, which is what Oswiecim
would be classified as. You're not having to take into consideration
that every single contributor to an anthology zine gets a copy of that
zine for free. Any given zine probably has 12-15 contributors, and you
have to mark up the zine (and make an assumption about how many you'll
sell) accordingly.
<<And I get feedback on the net and in writing. Sometimes from the
same people.>>
We get very few letters from folks. It used to be that every single
person who bought a zine wrote a letter of comment on it, good or bad.
That doesn't happen at all these days.
<<Fanzines are more expensive than novels which are generally of
better
quality. >>
I will disagreewith you there. Most of the pro-novels are not worth
the paper they're printed on. Furthermore, the cost per page of a
pro-novel has doubled in the past decade, wherein the cost per page of
a fanzine has only increased by 10% or so. Pro-novels are still
cheaper than fanzines because they can print in such large quantities,
but pro-novels are now $6.99 a book versus a $15.00 fanzine? I
remember when pro-novels were only 50cents and fanzines were $10.00.
<<And why submit to a fanzine? I did once because someone asked me
personally. Someone I consider an e-friend. But the result was
disappointing. A
first draft was used rather than the edited copy I sent them. The
scenes weren't divided.>>
I'm sorry your experiences with fanzines haven't been pleasant ones.
<<And I can't put it on my web site or post it to asc for a year (two
years if it was Orion, right?).>>
We would like the chance to make back the money on the contributors'
copies, yes.
<<How much easier is it to send an e-mail saying "I loved your story."
A
good story will get more than that. To date, I've recieved feedback
via e-mail or web page from 43 people since I posted Oswiecim in
September (or was it August.) I have gotten feedback from three
people in the mail, and three people in person (my siblings). More on
the net. >>
As many of our authors don't have email links (some don't even have
email), perhaps this is the problem. Maybe I should create some email
links for everyone and some sort of electronic post office to handle
it for everyone.... I'll give that some thought.
<<Be bothered. Please. Produce a better zine and let us know that
somehow. I don't buy zines as a general rule. If I don't buy them,
why should others buy mine, I though. I've learned though, that if
people like your story (or hear from someone else that it's worth the
money) they'll buy it. I've had people order a copy when they'd
already read the story online. Why? They thought it was damned good
and wanted a copy for keeps. They knew the story was worth the money.
Some of them then wanted a print copy of my other stories. I'm happy
with the results. Elated. You tried such a thing by offering an
occasional free zine and I thank you for the opportunity. While there
were some story blurbs that sounded interesting, I was not impressed
with the writing of the free zines enough to pay for others. How
could I trust they would be worth the money?>>
Laura Taylor has produced a damn fine zine in OUTPOST 9. What could I
do to convince you to give it a try? You've already had two free
zines you don't care for, and you've got all these bad experiences
with other fanzines you've bought or submitted to...I mean, there's
not much I could do to convince you to buy OUTPOST 9, now is there?
I'm not being provocative; I'm being honest here.
<<As for the site, I'm waiting for more DS9 stories to be posted
there. The
ones that sounded interesting. Buy why pay for the site? There are a
lot of
free sites out there. Okay, so on GeoCities you have to have a
GeoGuide
or pop-ups. The GeoGuide isn't so bad and actually gets ignored 99% of
the
time. It sits at the top and doesn't get in the way. The site is
free, doesn't
cost me a thing.>>
Actually, I don't usually visit GeoCities sites because the
advertising is too distracting. And I abhor any site with Pop Up
banners. As far as posting more DS9 there, we've posted pretty much
everything we've got permission to post.
<,Vent away, just be constructive. Look for solutions. Don't just
throw in the towel.>>
*chuckle* That's not what I do. This has been building up for a very
long time, and I don't expect folks to offer "there, there"
platitudes. I'm interested in whether or not we can expect fanzines to
continue to be published in a day when anyone can download fan fic for
free, and I wonder if there are any alternatives that I haven't
realized or considered.
Thanks for the response, Gabrielle!
--
Randy Landers
<<Much as I like getting free fanfic, NOTHING beats laying back after
a really
tough day and reading a good fanzine in bed. I'll NEVER give up such
pleasure. Print zines are so much better than the crap that the pros
keep
throwing at us. I've become totally commited to buying mostly print
zines
now.>>
Really, now see, that's interesting. I've been told repeatedly on-line
lately from folks who are downloading everything we've got that they
have no interest in buying zines that aren't worth it. Then why the
hell are they using so much of my bandwidth? *sigh*
<<The one problem I have IS the feedback. It's easier to feedback by
e-mail,
so maybe if and e-mail addy was prited with each story the authors
would get
more.>>
I'm thinking along the lines of a post office that will allow readers
to contact authors directly.
<<Randy it's mainly because of you that I've bothered to continue
continue my
fanfic interest. I think ORION does it right in all areas and the
prices ARE
NOT too high.>>
Thanks, MAC!
Randy Landers
to make
these materials available on line for a fee, of course.>>
Actually, any fee-based Trek site would be highly illegal and shut
down within hours, I suspect.
<<I'd love to read the stories that appear on the Trek zines, but they
are in print, and well, the mechanics of converting them to braille or
some sort of speech
output can be a little bit more complicated without a scanner>>
And we've always had zines available on disk for this very reason.
Randy Landers
<<I am absolutely new to the fanficition scene. I have been on the
internet for
a couple of years, but never knew this world existed until a few weeks
ago. I
just recently ordered my first fanzine (outpost 9) from Orion. So I
have no
idea what these fanzines entail. But what I have to say is that
perhaps it
would be wise to "advertise" a little more. I mean I've been on the
net for
quite some time but I never knew about Fanfiction. It was a completely
unknown concept to me.>>
Where would you recommend? I'm more than willing to advertise. Lord
knows, my site's listed everywhere these days, and I advertise in THE
NEW MONTHLY. Fanzines, though, are still, as John Ordover will remind
us, illegal. And they can't be advertised in, say, Starlog.
<<Perhaps there are more folks like that out there? As for printed
fanzines and
those you get on the net. I think it will be most interesting to see a
'zine.
If I will like it more than the stories on the net remains to be seen.
But I
know I usually like to print the stories from the net, because it's
much more
fun reading them from the printouts than on the screen. Keep going
Randy,>>
I'm not dead yet. :)
<<Don't give up and if I like this fanzine. I'll be sure to order more
of them>>
I think you will enjoy OUTPOST 9. I did.
Randy Landers
<<I am a person that one year ago, found the net. Because of the net
and
Killashandra, as well as Mindsweeper, i began to write, because I
began to
write, I had a desire to see what had already been written, because I
had
wanted to look at fanzines, I started to buy them, because I started
to buy
them,I started to write for them, because I started to write for them,
I sent
my first story off to attempt to get it published. Do you get my
drift?
Fanzines are an integral part of Fandom, but so is the net. There is
alot of
fiction on the net;, there is not alot of good fiction on the net; and
there is
very little great fiction on the net. >>
Donna Frelick, author of The Mindsweeper, gets more feedback at
conventions than she does from her email address (which is on the
website version of her novella as an HTML mail link). That's got to be
disheartening to her.
<<Unfortunately, the newer fanzines reflect the same pattern, some of
the stories
are poorly written, with weak characterizations. High quality will
sell,
regardless. So, if you continue to stretch and produce work that is
well
written, I think there will always be a place for fanzines. I think
your
business may have to be leaner though. I have purchased your zines and
will
continue to do so when the story or the writer intrique me. Some of
the zines I
have purchased from you do not have stories that have the depth of
characterization that I require for a good nights read. They tend to
be more
acton oriented and less relationship or issue oriented. Some of your
stories do
scratch my itch, like Rottler's. That does not say the rest are not
good, they
just don't scratch my itch. I tend to believe there are more people
out there
that will enjoy those type of stories, than not. Don't give up, just
get tough.>>
Lynn and Mary's work is wonderful, and we're delighted that they share
so much of it with us. But, ANTARES 2, which features one of their
stories, hasn't even sold only 58 copies, not quite enough to pay for
itself. But not all stories will appeal to all authors. I've got some
folks that insist that Author A is the best, and that B Author sucks.
And I've got other folks that insist that B Author is the best, and
that Author A sucks. Taste in stories is always going to be
subjective.
And I ain't giving up. I'm performing a bit of catharsis, and I'm
seeking options.
--
Randy Landers
<<This is the second time someone has mentioned such chunky sums of
money. Do you honestly mean that you pay that much for zines over in
america?!? >>
The average cost of one of our zines is $14.75.
<<How big/thick are they?>>
About 150-180 pages, spiral bound, with color covers.
<<Here in australia, the average zine is around $2-$3 dollars, with
12-24 pages on average depending on what it's about >>
*smile* As they said in the Godzilla advertising, size does matter. :)
Randy Landers
<<I'm curious as to how you get those printed. I can get more pages
printed for less money. Or are you including shipping prices? If so,
then you've got more pages for less money.>>
You're not taking into account the costs of providing every
contributor with a copy (based on an average of sales of that
particular title), the color covers, the FastBack binding, the
advertising (and we have those expenses monthly for adzines and the
like) and so on.
Randy Landers
<<As to the site, what you might try and do is only offer part of the
story at
the webpage, say half of it. Try to lure people in - if they like the
story
and want to see how it ends, they might be more inclined to purchase
the zine.>>
Actually, I heard from Jean Lorrah last night who said this does not
work. What Gabrielle has done (offered it on the net, then offered it
in print at a cost) works much better. What I have done (offered it in
print at a cost, then two years later, offer it on the net for free)
probably works better.
<<Of course, then you have the problem of exchange rates if people
from O/S
want to buy your zine, problems that don't exist when they access the
stories.>>
Tell me about it. Right now, we've heard from a number of Canadian
readers that we've lost a lot of them to the current exchange rate
between US dollars and Canadian dollars.
Laura Taylor
>
> Gabrielle says
> <<Be bothered. Please. Produce a better zine and let us know that
> somehow. I don't buy zines as a general rule. If I don't buy them,
> why should others buy mine, I though. I've learned though, that if
> people like your story (or hear from someone else that it's worth the
> money) they'll buy it. I've had people order a copy when they'd
> already read the story online. Why? They thought it was damned good
> and wanted a copy for keeps. They knew the story was worth the money.
> Some of them then wanted a print copy of my other stories. I'm happy
> with the results. Elated. You tried such a thing by offering an
> occasional free zine and I thank you for the opportunity. While there
> were some story blurbs that sounded interesting, I was not impressed
> with the writing of the free zines enough to pay for others. How
> could I trust they would be worth the money?>>
>
> Laura Taylor has produced a damn fine zine in OUTPOST 9. What could I
> do to convince you to give it a try? You've already had two free
> zines you don't care for, and you've got all these bad experiences
> with other fanzines you've bought or submitted to...I mean, there's
> not much I could do to convince you to buy OUTPOST 9, now is there?
> I'm not being provocative; I'm being honest here.
I confess that, although I've wanted to weigh in on this issue, I've
been reluctant to do so because I didn't want to seem like I was tooting
my own horn. Since Randy has been so kind to do it for me, however - and
many thanks, Randy! - I feel safe speaking up.
Several respondents have said they don't like 'zines because they tend
to produce a certain type of story, or not all stories are up to the
readers' standards, or so on and so forth. To both of these, I can only
say: I include what writers submit. Outpost 9 is heavy on humor and
action/adventure. Not because *I* shaped it that way; those were the
types of stories people contributed. Outpost 10 will be deliberately
all-romance, because I want to achieve some sort of balance from issue
to issue. Outpost 11, who knows? If Orion Press folds, there won't *be*
an Outpost 11, so I'm not going to look that far ahead.
Outpost 9 was my first experience editing a 'zine, and I was surprised
at how fragmented and divisive DS9 fandom is, even though I'm a guilty
party in that divisiveness. It's damn near impossible to produce a DS9
genzine that will please a significant portion, much less a majority, of
DS9 fans. After the headaches of putting together Outpost 9, I'm not
going to even try. As I said, it's the contributions that shape the
'zine: I just try to get the stories into good shape and put everything
together into a neat, attractive package.
If you think there needs to be more Odo/Kira stories, write them and
send them in! If you like introspective Sisko vignettes, ditto! 'Zines
work the same way as ASC: if you want it, you write it. Think the
quality of stories is subpar? Then write the best damn story you can!
But bear in mind that tastes vary widely. I, personally, want to gag
every time I read an Odo/Kira romance, but I imagine I have the same
effect on many people with my Dukat stories. I happen to like
action/adventure stories, but there are people who read only
hurt/comfort.
IMO, there's not a single bad story in Outpost 9. Does that mean I
*like* all of them? No way. I have my preferences! <G> But my goal was
not to include only stories I *liked* - of the submissions I received,
only one didn't make it in, and that was because the author objected
quite forcefully to my effrontery in suggesting that, although his story
was good, his writing style needed work. He withdrew his submission -
after saying a few things to me that would singe your eyebrows - in
protest against my editing comments. Nevertheless, I thought his story
was good as a story, as I think all stories are fundamentally good. The
storytellers, though...<G>
No anthology 'zine is going to appeal to everybody. The best they can
hope to do is appeal to as wide an audience as possible. That's the
nature of an anthology. Of all the stories in Strange New Worlds, I only
liked one or two. I have about a dozen anthologies in my personal
library that I own only because they contain an obscure Faulkner or
O'Connor story that I couldn't find elsewhere. The rest I just ignore.
As I suggested to Randy outside of ASC, the solution may be to move away
from the anthology. Yet even there problems remain. With a focused
'zine, you're appealing to a very specific segment of fandom, which
means sales will drop. Then, of course, there's the ever-present problem
with submissions. I have until the end of April to get enough DS9
romance stories to comprise a full-lenth 'zine. If I don't get enough,
I'll have to postpone publication, or repackage it back into the
tried-and-true anthology format. It's almost a no-win situation no
matter what happens.
And still I come back to the same issue: it's the submissions that make
the 'zines. More stories mean more (and thicker) 'zines. Better stories
mean better 'zines. I do the best that I can with the material I have,
but unless you want to purchase a 'zine filled with stories I wrote in
desperation just to have *something* to publish (AUGH! 150 pages of
Dukat angst! The horror, the horror! <BG>), the quality and type of
stories depends entirely on you.
Laura Taylor
>
> Hi Randy,
>
> I am absolutely new to the fanficition scene. I have been on the internet for
> a couple of years, but never knew this world existed until a few weeks ago. I
> just recently ordered my first fanzine (outpost 9) from Orion. So I have no
> idea what these fanzines entail. But what I have to say is that perhaps it
> would be wise to "advertise" a little more. I mean I've been on the net for
> quite some time but I never knew about Fanfiction. It was a completely
> unknown concept to me.
>
> those you get on the net. I think it will be most interesting to see a 'zine.
> If I will like it more than the stories on the net remains to be seen. But I
> know I usually like to print the stories from the net, because it's much more
> fun reading them from the printouts than on the screen.
>
> Keep going Randy,
>
No, I don't feel any pressure...:-D
Randy Landers
<<I confess that, although I've wanted to weigh in on this issue, I've
been reluctant to do so because I didn't want to seem like I was
tooting
my own horn. Since Randy has been so kind to do it for me, however -
and
many thanks, Randy! - I feel safe speaking up.>>
Hey, I just call 'em like I see 'em. _I_ liked it a lot.
<<Several respondents have said they don't like 'zines because they
tend
to produce a certain type of story, or not all stories are up to the
readers' standards, or so on and so forth. To both of these, I can
only
say: I include what writers submit. Outpost 9 is heavy on humor and
action/adventure. Not because *I* shaped it that way; those were the
types of stories people contributed.>>
In fact, ALL of the ORION PRESS fanzines are produced in the same way.
The contributors determine the content. Now, if a number of
Odo/Lwaxana fans suddenly overwhelm us with lots and lots of
submissions, oh well. It'll make for an interesting issue, won't it?
Or the editor might then step in and say something.
<<Outpost 10 will be deliberately all-romance, because I want to
achieve some sort of balance from issue to issue.>>
And that's what I expect editors to do, too. :)
<<Outpost 11, who knows? If Orion Press folds, there won't *be* an
Outpost 11, so I'm not going to look that far ahead.>>
And we're not going to fold over night. We're just rethinking some of
our policies, our direction, our goals. I opened this up to the
newsgroup because I'm looking for ideas. I've already come up with
one: a email post office of sorts for our contributors.
<<Outpost 9 was my first experience editing a 'zine, and I was
surprised
at how fragmented and divisive DS9 fandom is, even though I'm a guilty
party in that divisiveness. It's damn near impossible to produce a DS9
genzine that will please a significant portion, much less a majority,
of
DS9 fans. After the headaches of putting together Outpost 9, I'm not
going to even try. As I said, it's the contributions that shape the
'zine: I just try to get the stories into good shape and put
everything
together into a neat, attractive package.>>
This was the same experience I felt as editor of OUTPOST 1-3, and that
Jeff Morris undoubtedly felt as editor of OUTPOST 4-5?
<<If you think there needs to be more Odo/Kira stories, write them and
send them in! If you like introspective Sisko vignettes, ditto! 'Zines
work the same way as ASC: if you want it, you write it. Think the
quality of stories is subpar? Then write the best damn story you can!
But bear in mind that tastes vary widely. I, personally, want to gag
every time I read an Odo/Kira romance, but I imagine I have the same
effect on many people with my Dukat stories. I happen to like
action/adventure stories, but there are people who read only
hurt/comfort. >>
Ooooh. You like Dukat stories? Ooooooh. <BG> That's the sort of
reaction one gets. In ANTARES, it's "More McCoy" (this after an almost
all-McCoy first issue) or "More Kirk" or "More Romance."
<<IMO, there's not a single bad story in Outpost 9. Does that mean I
*like* all of them? No way. I have my preferences! <G> But my goal was
not to include only stories I *liked* >>
Exactly as our editors are encouraged to do. Lord knows how I hated
Jo-Ann Lassiter's Worf-cries-over-Picard story in ERIDANI, but damn,
it was well written, so we published it. There are dozens of folks who
can tell you the same thing.
<<of the submissions I received, only one didn't make it in, and that
was because the author objected quite forcefully to my effrontery in
suggesting that, although his story was good, his writing style needed
work. He withdrew his submission - after saying a few things to me
that would singe your eyebrows - in
protest against my editing comments. Nevertheless, I thought his story
was good as a story, as I think all stories are fundamentally good.
The
storytellers, though...<G>>>
Regrettably, with the Internet and ease of posting stories everywhere,
we're encountering more and more resistance from folks who don't want
their stories edited.
<<snip>>
<<As I suggested to Randy outside of ASC, the solution may be to move
away
from the anthology. Yet even there problems remain. With a focused
'zine, you're appealing to a very specific segment of fandom, which
means sales will drop. Then, of course, there's the ever-present
problem
with submissions. I have until the end of April to get enough DS9
romance stories to comprise a full-lenth 'zine. If I don't get enough,
I'll have to postpone publication, or repackage it back into the
tried-and-true anthology format. It's almost a no-win situation no
matter what happens.>>
As a matter of fact, BEKi has been considering a collection of HER
stories. Other authors are doing likewise. We're interested in it.
Single-talent zines (such as hers would be) are lower priced than
multi-talent zines. Fewer contributors copies mean lower prices.
<<And still I come back to the same issue: it's the submissions that
make
the 'zines. More stories mean more (and thicker) 'zines. Better
stories
mean better 'zines. I do the best that I can with the material I have,
but unless you want to purchase a 'zine filled with stories I wrote in
desperation just to have *something* to publish (AUGH! 150 pages of
Dukat angst! The horror, the horror! <BG>), the quality and type of
stories depends entirely on you.>>
What? You haven't submitted it to me yet? And why NOT?
Katie Redshoes
Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Actually, you _are_ paying for it through your Internet fees. And in
>case you haven't noticed, the phone companies are adding a new Federal
>surcharge on Internet usage on your phone bill. One month's bill for
>unlimited access can be, say $19.95. That's more than the price of a
>zine. And you may get more fiction, but you might find that the number
This so-called Federal phone surcharge on Internet usage has been
much-rumored for years, but there ain't no such animal. To my
knowledge, it's practically an urban legend.
--
Constable Katie Collecter/Formatter, ASC Archive team
ASC archive: http://archive.nu or http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/ascindex
Submissions: submissions# webamused.com
Corrections: r.lerret# usa.net
Remove "NOJUNK" or replace # to reply
Debbyjn
>The number of written submissions have fallen, too, for ANTARES and
>ERIDANI. Without submissions, we cannot do a zine. In the past three
>years, we've already seen the cancellation of ORION, TANTALUS,
>INTERLUDES and INVOLUTION. ERIDANI will be next at this rate. In the
>past, when contributors left, new contributors were always coming in
>to replace them. With the ease of posting material to the Internet,
>the new contributors are NOT materializing, and, bless 'em, the older
>ones (myself included) have moved on to other fandoms, or have had (as
>in my case) real life intrude deeply into their free time, or simply
>have lost interest in Trek altogether (thanks, in general, to various
>bunglings by The Powers That Be).
>
Okay, I'll plead guilty. I used to be a regular contributor to the TNG zines,
as you know, Randy, but in the last year or so REAL LIFE has intervened and I
just don't seem to find the time to sit down and write any more. Maybe the new
movie will inspire me.
I still love Eridani, Four Lights and Idylls, and I'll continue to buy every
issue. I can find more good TNG character stories in these zines than in
several months on the Internet, (although I really enjoy ASC, there enough
solid TNG stories here) and I find it almost impossible to read a story online.
I have to print it out and hold the paper in my hand. If I can read it off
the screen, it's only because the story hadn't really grabbed me.
>And letters of comment? What's that? NO ONE WRITES LOCS ANYMORE. The
>only reason folks write is to tell a story, which in essence, means
>they want to get feedback for their work.
Personally, I still get a thrill from seeing one of my stories in your zines.
Any LOC is just icing on the cake for me. I can still remember the issue I
got with my very first published story in it. And how rewarding it was to
receive your letter saying it was good enough to print.
>Guess what? Very few folks
>are even telling us 'good job, keep it up.' Instead, we get "Why was
>there no ERIDANI this time?" and "How dare you cancel INVOLUTION! I
>won't order again!" and "So & So says you suck, and I believe EVERY
>word s/he says" and "Geez! You're zines are TOO EXPENSIVE! How much
>money are you making off them?!!!"
>
>*sigh*
>
It must be very frustrating. I know I've paid a whole lot more for zines that
had considerably less quantity and quality of stories than what Orion
publishes.
Maybe you should consider a moratorium on adding new stories to the website.
If the people who have been visiting there run out of storiesto read, they
might actually buy some of the new zines to get a fresh infusion. I know I
feel withdrawal symptoms if I go too long without some new TNG material to
read. Just a thought.
Please keep up the good work, Randy. And I'll try to finish that story whose
first fifty pages or so have been sitting in my hard drivefor the past ten
months.
Debby
Jon Andersen
>Outpost 9 is about 150pp (6 stories, a poem, an essay and illustrations)
>and costs a little over $15.00. Oh, and each author who has 'Net access
>has their e-addy listed with their bio.
Hrm, how much a page does it cost to photocopy/print? I can get it done
for 5 cents/single-sided A4 (so it's 20 cents for double-sided A3) .
Let's see, thats 5 x 150 = $7.50. How much does photocopying cost over there
in the states?
Kattz
<randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip>
>kira-nerys writes
> But what I have to say is that perhaps it would be wise to
> "advertise" a little more. I mean I've been on the net for
> quite some time but I never knew about Fanfiction. It was
> a completely unknown concept to me.
>
>Where would you recommend? I'm more than willing to advertise. Lord
>knows, my site's listed everywhere these days, and I advertise in THE
>NEW MONTHLY. Fanzines, though, are still, as John Ordover will remind
>us, illegal. And they can't be advertised in, say, Starlog.
You must not be everywhere because this group is the only place I've seen
any mention of your site. Why don't you get a page at GeoCities with some
story samples and an explanation of what a fanzine is. You could also have
an explanation of how the fanzine is put together. Like, what size are
the pages, do you print on both sides of the page, is it put together like
a hard-cover book or does it fall apart in time like a paperback. You
could have a link to your site for those who are interested in buying and
want more information about the stories that would be in it. With a
GeoBanner you could be noticed by people who don't hang out in places where
you have been advertising.
Perhaps you should consider doing specialty fanzines. Let the buyer "have
it their own way" and let them choose what goes between the covers.
Kattz
Index Summary Editor for Alt.StarTrek.Creative
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/1278/ASC-menu.htm
kira_...@my-dejanews.com
"Randy Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Where would you recommend? I'm more than willing to advertise. Lord
> knows, my site's listed everywhere these days, and I advertise in THE
> NEW MONTHLY. Fanzines, though, are still, as John Ordover will remind
> us, illegal. And they can't be advertised in, say, Starlog.
Perhaps you should try mailinglists? Even mailinglists that aren't
specifically american or english. I think those are the first things that
fans come in contact with when they start browsing the net. I've been on
several for a long time. But never, ever have we discussed fanfiction on
these Star Trek lists. I don't know why. One thing may be the fact that a lot
of us reamin ignorant that there is such a thing and that there is a lot of
really *GOOD* fanfic too. Both on the internet and in fanzines. Also, of
course, having sites link to yours might be a good idea, but from what I've
seen you advice people NOT to link to your site - why? I was going to link to
ORION but found some note saying you didn't want people to do that. Isn't
that working against yourself?
> I'm not dead yet. :)
Good!
> I think you will enjoy OUTPOST 9. I did.
I can't wait to get it... I hope you received my money and that it's on its
way...
kira-nerys
PS And Laura.. Oh, sorry about the pressure thing LOL. Didn't mean to drive
you insane...
PensNest
"Randy Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip>
>>However, the convention attendees at the last VulKon (who were snide
>>in their derision toward the notion of "paying for zines") have made
>>it quite clear than the very fanzines which got me involved in Star
>>Trek fandom in the first place are likely to be headed the way of the
>>dinosaur, the dodo bird and the passenger pigeon: extinction.
>>The number of written submissions have fallen, too, for ANTARES and
>>ERIDANI. Without submissions, we cannot do a zine. In the past three
>>years, we've already seen the cancellation of ORION, TANTALUS,
>>INTERLUDES and INVOLUTION. ERIDANI will be next at this rate. In the
>>past, when contributors left, new contributors were always coming in
>>to replace them. With the ease of posting material to the Internet,
>>the new contributors are NOT materializing, and, bless 'em, the older
>>ones (myself included) have moved on to other fandoms, or have had (as
>>in my case) real life intrude deeply into their free time, or simply
>>have lost interest in Trek altogether (thanks, in general, to various
>>bunglings by The Powers That Be).
Zines are A Problem.
An editor/publisher must collect material, ensure that it is up to standard
(by which I mean she/he must *edit*, copy-edit and type-set) and get it
printed, publicised and sold. The obvious pitfalls are that there won't be
enough submissions (of suitable quality), that the writers won't co-operate
with the editing process, that there'll be printing difficulties, that
there won't be enough customers. (And I won't even mention the artwork!)
A fanfic author must locate a suitable publication, have her/his work
accepted, and wait in hope. Obvious pitfalls are that the editor will mess
around with, mis-type or otherwise mangle the work; that the other stories
in the zine, and/or the artwork, won't be up to the writer's personal
standards so that she/he will be annoyed to find her work in such company;
that the editor will not actually *edit* at all... or, perhaps, that the
zine editor/publisher will quietly decide not to bother to publish another
issue of whatever zine inspired the writer to submit that cherished story,
and will sneak into the night without bothering to mention to the hopeful
author that her work is no longer required. (Incidentally, this is one
reason why I submitted a story to Orion Press - you do a good job of
communicating with customers, and I was fairly confident that if my story
was accepted, it would see print one way or another.)
A zine reader must discover what is available, send her/his money and hope
for the best. Obvious pitfalls are that the zine won't be worth the money,
it'll contain mediocre fiction, typos and language errors, it'll be so
poorly set out that it represents bad value for money even by zine
standards (and we all know that due to economies of scale, etc, zines are
much more expensive than profic). It's also possible that the zine will
never turn up at all, for one reason or another. Let's face it, ordering
zines usually represents the triumph of hope over experience.
Gawsh, who'd be a zine reader? Or writer, or editor, or publisher?
And yet, I love zines. I like to have a *book* to read rather than a
screen. Yes, I can print out the stories which I'll read again... It's
not the same.
There is something appealing about a well-presented zine, in which the
author/editor has taken pains not only over the content but also over the
presentation. Of course zines don't have to be gorgeous to look at - they
can't all be "Pulse of the Machine" - but just being neat, smart and clean
makes them, IMO, pleasanter to read than onscreen stories. As for the
"Pulse of the Machine" school of 'zine as thing of beauty', I think it is
wonderful. I like books as objects, if they are presented in such a way -
Dava Sobel's "Longitude" in hardback, or the TNG background book "The
Continuing Mission", for instance. Lovely stuff.
>>And letters of comment? What's that? NO ONE WRITES LOCS ANYMORE. The
>>only reason folks write is to tell a story, which in essence, means
>>they want to get feedback for their work. Guess what? Very few folks
>>are even telling us 'good job, keep it up.' Instead, we get "Why was
>>there no ERIDANI this time?" and "How dare you cancel INVOLUTION! I
>>won't order again!" and "So & So says you suck, and I believe EVERY
>>word s/he says" and "Geez! You're zines are TOO EXPENSIVE! How much
>>money are you making off them?!!!"
Um. Those comments are LoCs, aren't they? Not, I concede, LoCs that I
envy you. Long, thoughtful feedback is in short supply. There is,
however, the horrid possibility that people aren't writing fulsome letters
of praise because the zines they are reading are no longer satisfying them.
We fans are mostly quite kind, and the polite among us don't send LoCs
detailing our criticisms and disappointments. We write only when we can
praise, and if we can't praise, we don't write.
>>Will I continue to do fanzines? Yes, for a time, as long as there are
>>enough readers to make it practical for me to do so. I love zines, and
>>I love writing them, editing them, trying to illustrate them and
>>publishing them. There's nothing like the joy I get in sitting down in
>>the bathtub or on the sofa with a glass of chocolate milk and with one
>>of our new releases, such as IDYLLS 18, OUTPOST 9 and CHEKOV'S
>>ENTERPRISE, and reading it from cover to cover. It's a satisfaction
>>that I have had a part in creating something lasting, even though it's
>>"just a zine."
That's it, isn't it? Zines are created because we love the subject and we
want the satisfaction of a job well done, something we can point to and
say, I did *that* and I'm proud of it. I've just created my first zine
(whether there are ever any more will depend on how this one goes!) and I'm
able to sit and look at my own copy and tell myself I've done a good job.
It *is* satisfying. Even if nobody ever buys one...
>>Sales this year, though, have been horrible, and we're having our
>>worst year since leaving the vast Bill Hupe Publishing Empire. All
>>sales are down across the board, and, as such, I will be forced to
>>raise prices in January to compensate for the lack of sales, which may
>>lead to even fewer sales. It's a self-destructive trend, but it's one
>>I cannot avoid unless sales pick up dramatically. I have never been
>>into fanzines for the money, lord knows, there ain't any to be made
>>there. But as the head of a household and father of three, I cannot
>>afford to lose the kind of money we've lost to date this year.
A possible alternative might be a re-think of the presentational style.
Can you reduce the page count by altering the layout? I don't have my
Eridani 29 at the moment, but #28 has unnecessarily wide margins, and
flush-left paragraphs (in a sans-serif font - not good!) separated by a
line space. If you used two columns, with indented paragraphs and slightly
smaller margins, you could pack in a *lot* more words per page, reducing
the page count but not the word count and so offering your customers better
value for money. I don't know what program is used for setting, but it
isn't necessary to have a heavy-duty page layout program - MS Word can
manage double columns perfectly well. (But Adobe PageMaker is much more
fun!)
>>I'm also bothered by the fact that our Internet site is extremely
>>popular, but few of these readers are actually buying even an
>>occasional zine. Given the expenses of maintaining the site (and
>>keeping it advertisement free), unless sales pick up (and donations,
>>too), the website will be going as well.
Um... with such a vast store of free fanfic, why would they want to buy the
zines? When would they have time to read them? Maybe after a few months,
readers will have devoured every page and will turn to you for their
hard-copy fix. Maybe not. There's a new generation of fans who are
discovering fanfic through the net, not through print. I don't know how
you persuade them to switch to zines - I can only suggest that a zine must
offer something that can't be had from a website. What, apart from the
ability to read in the bath, fits this category, I don't know.
>>I'm not trying to be so down, my friends, but this is just how I see
>>it. I thought I'd give you some advance warning, and see if any of you
>>might have some ideas, some suggestion as to how we could continue.
I hope you do continue, but if here and there a title has to be pruned, so
be it. Judging from this newsgroup I'd say about 80% of TNG fanfic is P/C,
and there seems to be enough R/T to keep going. General TNG stories are
*very* rare. So... is there a place for Eridani any more? Your call.
Pen
***D-Tales - the new Data anthology***
email pensnest at globalnet.co.uk
.
>However, the convention attendees at the last VulKon (who were snide
>in their derision toward the notion of "paying for zines") have made
>it quite clear than the very fanzines which got me involved in Star
>Trek fandom in the first place are likely to be headed the way of the
>dinosaur, the dodo bird and the passenger pigeon: extinction.
>
I am also busy in the fandom but in my case it is the German fandom. I
am mainly writing for a German fan club that offers a big variety of
Star Trek fanzines. They recently published my latest fanzine, a Voyager
Guide for the first two seasons (I am writing articles, not fan
fiction).
But I have close contact with some of the best known German fan fiction
writers and artists. I know that you published some of Gabi Stienes`s
work who is also illustrating my fanzines.
In Germany, fanzines sell very well. Also Gabi just wrote that the Star
Trek Forum stand was a big success again at a recent convention in
Germany. They sold about DM 2000 worth of fanzines! Each month, the
Forum offers new releases. They are usually of very high quality and I
love reading them.
I wonder why the situation is so different in the USA. That you can
download lots of fanfiction for free is certainly a factor. With the age
of the internet also memberships in Star Trek clubs were going down
because people can get news directly from the Internet. But at least in
Germany clubs are still thriving. Yes, they have lower membership
numbers nowadays, also the Star Trek Forum, but they are now quite
stable and still high enough to make running such clubs worthwhile.
I was expecting something similar with US fanzines. There are of course
much more English speaking fanfiction sites than German ones - although
Germans who are on the net usually speak English as well. I am not
surprised that the Internet reduced your sales but it shouldn`t be THIS
bad!
I wonder, has it to do with some difference in mentality? Do Europeans
enjoy reading books or fanzines more than Americans? My husband, who is
English, and me, a German, we both have a huge collection of SF books
and love reading.
I certainly love fanzines. I have a big collection - German and US ones.
Lots of them are from Orion Press and only recently I ordered some more
from you. I think you do a great job and I will continue to support you
by buying more when I can afford it.
Before you despair, watch if your sales will stabilize on a lower level.
I hope they will.
>The number of written submissions have fallen, too, for ANTARES and
>ERIDANI. Without submissions, we cannot do a zine. In the past three
>years, we've already seen the cancellation of ORION, TANTALUS,
>INTERLUDES and INVOLUTION. ERIDANI will be next at this rate. In the
>past, when contributors left, new contributors were always coming in
>to replace them. With the ease of posting material to the Internet,
>the new contributors are NOT materializing, and, bless 'em, the older
>ones (myself included) have moved on to other fandoms, or have had (as
>in my case) real life intrude deeply into their free time, or simply
>have lost interest in Trek altogether (thanks, in general, to various
>bunglings by The Powers That Be).
Hm, have a closer look at these titles. They are mainly TNG ones. Also
in Germany, TNG submissions for the Forum are WAY down. There are hardly
any new TNG fanzines available in Germany as well.
I think the reason is that people are divided in two factions (roughly
speaking): The die-hard TOS fan who is not very interested in modern
Star Trek and the people who prefer the modern Star Trek are more
involved with the latest series. I am one of the latter and I felt the
same way: I still like TNG but compared to Voyager or certainly DS9 and
New Frontier it is pale in comparison.
The best selling series in Germany is definitely DS9.
As long as interest shifts from one direction to another, there is still
room for fanzines. I like the new ideas in your program like the Maquis
or Chekov fanzines (I will order them later). Well, I only miss New
Frontier but we already discussed that :-).
>
>And letters of comment? What's that? NO ONE WRITES LOCS ANYMORE. The
>only reason folks write is to tell a story, which in essence, means
>they want to get feedback for their work. Guess what? Very few folks
>are even telling us 'good job, keep it up.' Instead, we get "Why was
>there no ERIDANI this time?" and "How dare you cancel INVOLUTION! I
>won't order again!" and "So & So says you suck, and I believe EVERY
>word s/he says" and "Geez! You're zines are TOO EXPENSIVE! How much
>money are you making off them?!!!"
This is nothing new. Unfortunately it is human nature that people feel
more compelled to write when they don`t like something and not when they
like something.
It is the same with my articles and fanzines. I am used to it by now. I
only got lots of VERY positive feedback from people I don`t know when
the Forum published my first long article about New Frontier.
>
>Sales this year, though, have been horrible, and we're having our
>worst year since leaving the vast Bill Hupe Publishing Empire. All
>sales are down across the board, and, as such, I will be forced to
>raise prices in January to compensate for the lack of sales, which may
>lead to even fewer sales. It's a self-destructive trend, but it's one
>I cannot avoid unless sales pick up dramatically. I have never been
>into fanzines for the money, lord knows, there ain't any to be made
>there. But as the head of a household and father of three, I cannot
>afford to lose the kind of money we've lost to date this year.
>
The Forum usually only prints fanzines when there are orders for them. I
have never published fanzines myself and my knowledge on how to do so is
very limited. I think people are willing to wait longer if that doesn`t
mean to increase prices.
>I'm also bothered by the fact that our Internet site is extremely
>popular, but few of these readers are actually buying even an
>occasional zine. Given the expenses of maintaining the site (and
>keeping it advertisement free), unless sales pick up (and donations,
>too), the website will be going as well.
Perhaps you should start not to put everything on the site. Perhaps you
should offer more excerpts instead of long full stories or only one
story of a specific author and mention in what zines interested readers
could find more. This should of course only apply to zines that are
still in print.
>Randy Landers
>ORION PRESS
Baerbel Haddrell
Ann Zewen
Jon Andersen wrote in message <70mhlc$h45$1...@metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au>...
Jon, it's not just the cost of photocopying, but also the cost of the color
covers, binding, and mailing. Also, when you price a zine, you have to build
in the cost of sending free copies to all of your contributors (the only
payment you can receive). If you have 15 contributors (not unlikely with an
anthology zine, you have to add up all of the actual costs of producing and
distributing those zines and then spread that cost over all of the zines you
can reasonably expect to sell. Otherwise, even at your printing prices plus
mailing (without the other costs added in), the editor and/or publisher
would be paying at least $150 out of his/her own pocket just to get the
contributors' copies out -- and that's just for one individual zine title,
i.e. Antares 2 or Outpost 9. I don't know about you, but I don't have that
kind of money, and I know Randy doesn't, especially when you consider how
many zine titles he publishes in a given year. He'd be bankrupt and divorced
both.
Yes, it's relatively cheap to market a zine you wrote and illustrated and
published yourself. After all, the only contributor's copy you have to worry
about is your own. But when you do an anthology zine, it's an expensive
undertaking. I know. For a while I handled the printing of zines for Randy
through a local print shop. I had a really good deal on price, and it still
scared me how much it cost to do this -- especially when it was time to send
out contributors' copies. Using the free, priority mail envelopes from the
post office helps cut down on cost some, but then your mailing cost is $3
per zine (or even higher if you have a *really* big zine). On top of that,
as I noted above, you have the binding cost (at least $1 per zine) plus the
covers ($2 to $3 per zine or even higher, depending on quality of
reproduction). Add it all up: $7.50 for printing the pages, $1 for binding,
$3 for cover and $3 to mail -- that's $14.50 actual production and mailing
cost -- without the contributors' copies costs added in.
Yeah, it can be done cheaper -- and is -- but zine readers in this country
expect quality in appearance as well as content. Every zine doesn't have to
be filled with wonderful artwork, but our readers expect at least a quality
color cover. Those are a little more affordable with present technology than
they were 5-10 years ago, but they're still much more than 5 cents a copy.
Cheaper production looks cheap, and the readers don't accept that. One of
the advantages of a print zine over Internet reading is the inclusion of
that artwork.
--
Ann
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." _ Dennis Miller
.
<randyl...@mindspring.com> writes
>Gabrielle says
><<Some people still prefer a print zine in some cases. My solution
>with my
>latest story (Oswiecim, the huge one) was to offer it both ways. And
>I
>have gotten orders. More than 20 in the last month. I only print
>what is ordered so I don't lose money or make it.>>
>
>Well, we don't lose money on printing novellas, which is what Oswiecim
>would be classified as. You're not having to take into consideration
>that every single contributor to an anthology zine gets a copy of that
>zine for free. Any given zine probably has 12-15 contributors, and you
>have to mark up the zine (and make an assumption about how many you'll
>sell) accordingly.
>
I think you should change that. Also publishing in the German Star Trek
Forum doesn`t automatically entitle you to a free copy, certainly not if
this zine is written by several people.
I think what you should do is offer contributors a copy at half price or
something like that.
><<Fanzines are more expensive than novels which are generally of
>better
>quality. >>
>
>I will disagreewith you there. Most of the pro-novels are not worth
>the paper they're printed on.
I think that the new direction John Ordover introduced makes the novels
much more interesting. I certainly enjoy them much more nowadays.
But we already had this discussion here not long ago :-).
>
>As many of our authors don't have email links (some don't even have
>email), perhaps this is the problem. Maybe I should create some email
>links for everyone and some sort of electronic post office to handle
>it for everyone.... I'll give that some thought.
>
Yes, it makes a difference! All spontaneous feedback I got from people I
don`t know came by email or appeared on the Forum webpage.
>--
>Randy Landers
>ORION PRESS
Baerbel Haddrell
.
<randyl...@mindspring.com> writes
>Where would you recommend? I'm more than willing to advertise. Lord
>knows, my site's listed everywhere these days, and I advertise in THE
>NEW MONTHLY. Fanzines, though, are still, as John Ordover will remind
>us, illegal. And they can't be advertised in, say, Starlog.
>
Forgive my ignorance, but are there no US clubs that offer a Star Trek
newsletter? The biggest Star Trek club in Germany has thousands of
members and you can even buy their monthly newsletter (It is more like a
small paperpack) in specific shops. The Star Trek Forum has about 700
members and also offers a monthly newsletter. In it are also adverts of
all kinds.
If you want to, I can ask the three Star Trek clubs I am working with
(like the two I mentioned) to advertise for Orion Press in an issue.
Helsos
>case you haven't noticed, the phone companies are adding a new Federal
>surcharge on Internet usage on your phone bill. One month's bill for
>unlimited access can be, say $19.95. That's more than the price of a
>zine.
Well yes, bu t the amount of time used for downloading net stories is
approximately .05 of the total usage of my net time, Therefore 19.95 divided by
.05 is *much* less than the cost of a zine. I'm just trying for accurate
accounting here, keeping the arguments logical... I really like zines, and
given a choice of an ilustrated well written zine (aye, there's the rub) or a
net story, would choose the zine every time.
PensNest
"Randy Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>And letters of comment? What's that? NO ONE WRITES LOCS ANYMORE. The
>>only reason folks write is to tell a story, which in essence, means
>>they want to get feedback for their work. Guess what? Very few folks
>>are even telling us 'good job, keep it up.' Instead, we get "Why was
>>there no ERIDANI this time?" and "How dare you cancel INVOLUTION! I
>>won't order again!" and "So & So says you suck, and I believe EVERY
>>word s/he says" and "Geez! You're zines are TOO EXPENSIVE! How much
>>money are you making off them?!!!"
On further reflection, I think that perhaps people don't write LoCs as they
used to because of the changes in the culture. I probably haven't been
involved for long enough to judge, but my impression is that zine fandom
used to be a closer-knit community than it is now. Readers regarded the
zines they bought as 'theirs' in a way that may no longer apply. Nowadays,
with the greater choice brought about by (a) the internet and (b) far
greater commercial concentration on extracting money from fans, sorry, that
should be, opportunities to buy stuff, there isn't the feeling of community
among fanfic readers that there used to be.
However, it may also be that society in general, not just the fanfic
community, is less inclined to give 'strokes' these days. A pity.
Pen
powellfamily
Randy, did you ever respond to T'Marta's call for an electronic outlet
for the vision-impaired Trekkers out there? I know at least two other
faithful-ASC readers who can't read printed fanzines.
This 'providing stories on-line for a fee' would seem to me a way to
bridge the gap. Or sending a disk to the buyer with the stories and
artwork on it to read.
Sharron
who will remain a faithful Orion reader--when's Fire and Ice II coming
out ?? ;-) (BTW: what do you think of the subject line-- sounds like
a new ASC column to me-- "Hey Randy!"--advice/discussion on fanzine
publishing/submission or whatever.)
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
Unzadi
>>one author (or show if it's a multimedia zine) I like and in which the
>>artwork is either poor or distracting (I tend to be very picky about
>>artwork) .
>
>Do you honestly mean that you pay that much for zines over in america?!?
>dollars, with 12-24 pages on average depending on what it's about
>
>
If one of the little zine publishers may rear her well-coiffed head...<G>
Cat Toy Publications has been putting out zines of various sizes for years now,
ranging from the buck-a-pop small humour zines, back issues of the JFAS Update
(Frakes fan club newsletter) and their like to the large monsters that kick off
the Tapestry Saga. The two novel-legnth zines (revised and expanded reprints
of serialised Riker stories) are priced starting at twenty dollars separately.
Paper costs and printing costs have risen. It costs more to *make* a big zine,
more to print it and ship it, but I know, and our readers know, that it's worth
it. Nobody else tells the kinds of stories we do, so we have to keep going.
It's a labour of love.
I will happily pay ten, fifteen or twenty dollars for a zine I want. If the
stories interest me, I want to have them. I'm another bathtub and bed zine
reader. It's just not the same to curl up with a pile of printed-out pages
culled from a website. I want the feel of the spiral or perfect bind (as in
Idylls 18, shameless plug!) I want the artwork. I definetly want the artwork.
As a specialised zine publisher, I consider it a privilege to have such fine
fan artists as Tim Harrison and Ensign Roe McLaren at my beck and call. When I
look at the cover of our Purities 2, our all DS9 anthology zine, with its
beautiful Gabi Stiene colour cover, I still get chills. There's nothing that
can take the place of a good, solid zine.
On the Net, anyone can put up a story. Good, bad, indifferent (and I've seen
lots of each) they're all up there. An editor is an essential part of the zine
experience. When I go back and look over the original published versions of
the Snow Quartet and compare them to the reissue, they're the same story, true,
but fleshed out, fuller, more mature. The editing process is precious; I love
working with good edtiors, as they help me to become a better writer.
While I'm on the plug platform here, I'm thoroughly enjoying working with Orion
editors Althea Katz and Sandra Hunger. Brave ladies to take a chance on my
very different views on Trek romance. They, along with First Light editor E
Catherine Tobler (hihi!) keep me tapping away at those keys long past the sane
hours.
Why? It's a labour of love. Not just for Trek, as I've long since turned from
the current tide of that and been pursuing things in the Tapestry universe.
It's a love of zines. I've met some of my best friends through zines. I've
also met some good ones through the net. I love them both; intertwined and
equal. There's just something about the print zine, especially well written,
well-edited, well-illustrated, that the pro novels and internet can never
achieve.
Anna C. Bowling
Cat Toy Publications
Pleasant Little Kingdom Press
"The Wedding Seasons," Idylls 18
Now available from Orion Press (woohoo!)
Friends don't let friends write bad fanfic!
Chamber of the Warrior Queen
http://members.aol.com/unzadi
Laura Jacquez Valentine
> From: reds...@NOJUNKix.netcom.com (Katie Redshoes)
> Newsgroups: alt.startrek.creative
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 03:11:49 GMT
> Organization: ASC Archive Team
>
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:59:05 -0400 in alt.startrek.creative, "Randy
> Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> >Actually, you _are_ paying for it through your Internet fees. And in
> >case you haven't noticed, the phone companies are adding a new Federal
> >surcharge on Internet usage on your phone bill. One month's bill for
> >unlimited access can be, say $19.95. That's more than the price of a
>
> This so-called Federal phone surcharge on Internet usage has been
> much-rumored for years, but there ain't no such animal. To my
> knowledge, it's practically an urban legend.
>
It *is* an urban legend. See
http://www.urbanlegends.com/classic/modem_tax.html
for a debunking.
It is dated January, 1990, and reads, in part:
"The FCC has been informed that various computer bulletin board systems
are encouraging computer modem users to write to
the FCC and to their congressional representatives to oppose this
alleged proposal. The FCC's Common Carrier Bureau
(Bureau) staff has contacted several bulletin board systems and
requested those systems to advise their users that there is no
proposal before the FCC at this time regarding a computer modem
surcharge. Bureau staff is continuing to investigate possible
sources of the surcharge rumors and to distribute correct information to
computer modem users."
--laura "who, me, spend time in alt.folklore.urban?" valentine
Gabrielle Lawson
Randy Landers wrote:
> Gabrielle says
> <<I'm curious as to how you get those printed. I can get more pages
> printed for less money. Or are you including shipping prices? If so,
> then you've got more pages for less money.>>
>
> You're not taking into account the costs of providing every
> contributor with a copy (based on an average of sales of that
> particular title), the color covers, the FastBack binding, the
> advertising (and we have those expenses monthly for adzines and the
> like) and so on.
Okay, I don't have trib copies (except for myself--and I gave oneto Sid,
but I took those out of my own pocket). I do have color
covers--I do artwork as well. Also, what's your opinion on velo
binding? I use that. I've found that FastBack falls apart. I did
advertise my zine in my fan club's newsletter (Sid's fan club, not
a fan club for me. ;-D ) and The New Monthly. But I haven't
advertised anywhere that costs money.
Oh, and where I print, FastBack and velo are the same price.
What are the adzines you mentioned? Might I be interested in
such things?
--
--Gabrielle
I'd much rather be writing!
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/2460
Gabrielle Lawson
PensNest wrote:
> In article <70jg3g$35r$1...@samsara0.mindspring.com>,
> "Randy Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> That's it, isn't it? Zines are created because we love the subject and we
> want the satisfaction of a job well done, something we can point to and
> say, I did *that* and I'm proud of it. I've just created my first zine
> (whether there are ever any more will depend on how this one goes!) and I'm
> able to sit and look at my own copy and tell myself I've done a good job.
> It *is* satisfying. Even if nobody ever buys one...
I do agree. I love my copy of Oswiecim, and not just because I got
itautographed by Sid and Andy. It's mine. It's my work.
> A possible alternative might be a re-think of the presentational style.
> Can you reduce the page count by altering the layout? I don't have my
> Eridani 29 at the moment, but #28 has unnecessarily wide margins, and
> flush-left paragraphs (in a sans-serif font - not good!) separated by a
> line space. If you used two columns, with indented paragraphs and slightly
> smaller margins, you could pack in a *lot* more words per page, reducing
> the page count but not the word count and so offering your customers better
> value for money. I don't know what program is used for setting, but it
> isn't necessary to have a heavy-duty page layout program - MS Word can
> manage double columns perfectly well. (But Adobe PageMaker is much more
> fun!)
Definitely! Please, every fanzine editor/producer, listen to this person!Use
Times New Roman, please! It looks so much more professional. And do
print like books really are. Left margins with indented paragraphs.
As for packing words per page, how's this? Oswiecim was written in 12 point
Times New Roman Latin 2 (slightly smaller than its TNR Latin 1 counterpart),
double spaced. It took up 584 pages. And that didn't include the bibliography
or appendix.
For fanzine, I cut it to 10 pt type, reduced the spaces between sentences to
one space, single-spaced it and threw it into two columns (with MS Word 97--
alas, my copy of Aldus PageMaker is no more). It still has indented paragraphs
and there are no spaces between paragraphs unless it's a scene or chapter
change.
Oh, and I think the margins are: Top and bottom--1/2 inch. Sides--1 inch.
It's now 185 pages, including the bibliography and appendix. How's that for
space
saving?
Part of the problem (besides using a rough draft) I had with my fanzine
experience
was the formatting. They used some strange font, flush left margins and a
space
between each paragraph. So then where were the blank lines I put in denoting
scene changes? Gone. Not good. Not good at all.
Randy Landers
<<This so-called Federal phone surcharge on Internet usage has been
much-rumored for years, but there ain't no such animal. To my
knowledge, it's practically an urban legend.>>
It's a toll imposed on the phone companies by the FCC, and amounts to
a tax on services. And it's actually on my monthly phone bill, and
first appeared a few months ago. It's under universal connection fee,
or some such silliness. All phone companies are passing it along to
their users, now. ALL users, whether they have Internet access or not.
Interestingly enough, a few Internet services have begun passing it
along, too.
The explanation for the tax, if I remember correctly, is that the
proceeds are going to help put the Internet in classrooms.
There may have been some sort of "urban legend" but if so, it was a
prophesy.
--
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
Randy Landers
<<Maybe you should consider a moratorium on adding new stories to the
website. If the people who have been visiting there run out of
storiesto read, they
might actually buy some of the new zines to get a fresh infusion. I
know I
feel withdrawal symptoms if I go too long without some new TNG
material to
read. Just a thought.>>
Actually, that's exactly what we're going to do. There won't be
another update to our website fiction until August 1st 1999.
<<Please keep up the good work, Randy. And I'll try to finish that
story whose
first fifty pages or so have been sitting in my hard drivefor the past
ten
months.>>
That's great, Debby. Yours are among our most popular stories!
Randy Landers
goes up (as it does during the summer). Sometimes it's less. You can
get 3 cent copies here and there, but the quality suffers.
Randy Landers
<<Cheaper production looks cheap, and the readers don't accept that.
>>
Quite. One of our fanzines last year had horrible reproduction
problems that we could not salvage.
Randy Landers
We've always sold *.txt copies of the zines to those making such
requests, but formatting has been a problem with a lot of text
readers. Apparently, the best way to go here is the HTML formatting
codes (which are a lot less extensive).
Randy Landers
<<You must not be everywhere because this group is the only place I've
seen
any mention of your site.>>
That's funny. We post regularly on almost any newsgroup with "Trek" in
its title. We're also on dozens of search engines and have links from
lots of sites. The Internet though is so vast that it's hard (if not
impossible) to properly advertise on.
<< Why don't you get a page at GeoCities with somestory samples and an
explanation of what a fanzine is. You could also have an explanation
of how the fanzine is put together. Like, what size are the pages,
do you print on both sides of the page, is it put together like a
hard-cover book or does it fall apart in time like a paperback.>>
That's a good idea. I'll add a page on our website describing what a
fanzine is, and what you can expect. Good idea! Thanks!
<<You could have a link to your site for those who are interested in
buying and
want more information about the stories that would be in it. With a
GeoBanner you could be noticed by people who don't hang out in places
where
you have been advertising.>>
GeoBanners would cost money and would probably draw attention to the
fanzines in the first place, something Paramount would frown upon.
<<Perhaps you should consider doing specialty fanzines. Let the buyer
"have
it their own way" and let them choose what goes between the covers.>>
Unfortunately, that technology is here but it's too expensive and time
consuming. It's easier and cheaper for folks to download the stories
they want, print them out, collate them in the order they want, and
take it to Fast Copy or Kinko's or wherever and let them spiral bind
it for you.
Joyce Harmon
pens...@notatglobalnet.co.uk says...
>
>Um... with such a vast store of free fanfic, why would they want to buy the
>zines? When would they have time to read them? Maybe after a few months,
>readers will have devoured every page and will turn to you for their
>hard-copy fix. Maybe not. There's a new generation of fans who are
>discovering fanfic through the net, not through print. I don't know how
>you persuade them to switch to zines - I can only suggest that a zine must
>offer something that can't be had from a website. What, apart from the
>ability to read in the bath, fits this category, I don't know.
Well, I'm someone who discovered fanfic through the net, two years before I
started purchasing zines. And I'm very much a convert to zines. Why?
Because there's an *editor*! There's plenty of fanfic on the internet, a
huge amount, more than any one person could ever possibly read. Some of it
is as excellent as any pro-fiction you can find in the bookstores. The
difficulty is *finding* the excellent stories amid the huge inventory out
there.
Don't get me wrong, I love all the democracy and easy-access stuff about the
internet. If someone wants to start a website and post their stories,
or post them to a mailing list or usenet group, more power to them, whether
or not they have any talent. They're enjoying it, and probably plenty of
other people are enjoying their work.
But as a *reader*, finding the fanfic you're interested in is like reading
through a publishing house's slush pile, looking through all the thousands
of submissions for the handful that the publisher will decide merits
publication.
Granted, a zine editor doesn't get the huge number of submissions that a
publishing house does, but you at least have the knowledge that with a zine,
*two* people (the writer and the editor) considered the story publishable,
whereas with netfic, you go entirely by the writer's judgement.
I'm on three fanfic mailing lists, and don't even begin to have the time to
read all the stuff that comes across them. But I'm looking forward with
great anticipation to attending my next convention, knowing that there are
new zines to buy.
Joyce
Randy Landers
Interestingly enough, German fanzine readers make up about 9% of our
sales. That's a REMARKABLY HIGH figure. England comes in second with
about 5% of our sales. The rest of the non-US resident readers come in
to about 6% combined.
Randy Landers
<<RL>every single contributor to an anthology zine gets a copy of that
<<RL>zine for free. Any given zine probably has 12-15 contributors,
and you
<<RL>have to mark up the zine (and make an assumption about how many
you'll
<<RL>sell) accordingly.
<<I think you should change that. Also publishing in the German Star
Trek
<<Forum doesn`t automatically entitle you to a free copy, certainly
not if
<<this zine is written by several people.
But that is a violation of US fanzine etiquette established some 30
years ago. Contributors who provide only a page or two receive
discounts, but the rest receive a comp copy. The few editors who've
tried charging for their contributors went out of business pretty
quickly.
Randy Landers
<<Perhaps you should try mailinglists? Even mailinglists that aren't
specifically american or english. I think those are the first things
that
fans come in contact with when they start browsing the net.>>
Actually, we do have an ORION PRESS email list that we maintain. Lots
of folks here on this group receive it. In fact, if you email me,
you'll probably be added to the list.
<<Also, of course, having sites link to yours might be a good idea,
but from what
I've seen you advice people NOT to link to your site - why? I was
going to link to
ORION but found some note saying you didn't want people to do that.
Isn't
that working against yourself?>>
Ooooh. Good point. I'd forgotten that was on there. At our previous
ISP, we were being charged for excessive bandwidth. At Mindspring, we
haven't reached that point yet. I'll delete those. Thanks!
Randy Landers
<<If you want to, I can ask the three Star Trek clubs I am working
with
(like the two I mentioned) to advertise for Orion Press in an issue.
>>
Please do. :)
Randy Landers
Now, calculate the actual percentage of stories you want to keep from
each month's download, the factor of printing those pages, the time
you used to search for those stories...
It's going to be a wash...
Randy Landers
<<Oh, and where I print, FastBack and velo are the same price.>>
Velo bind breaks when abused by the post office. FastBack is more
durable, but costs twice what a spiral binding comb costs.
<<What are the adzines you mentioned? Might I be interested in such
things?>>
Definitely. THE NEW MONTHLY is probably the best adzine on the market.
Contact Jo...@aol.com for detail. Tell her I sent you.
In addition to Trek zines, it has ads for all genres, from Real
Ghostbusters to Simon & Simon.
Laura Taylor
>
> PensNest wrote:
> > A possible alternative might be a re-think of the presentational style.
> > Can you reduce the page count by altering the layout? I don't have my
> > Eridani 29 at the moment, but #28 has unnecessarily wide margins, and
> > flush-left paragraphs (in a sans-serif font - not good!) separated by a
> > line space. If you used two columns, with indented paragraphs and slightly
> > smaller margins, you could pack in a *lot* more words per page, reducing
> > the page count but not the word count and so offering your customers better
> > value for money. I don't know what program is used for setting, but it
> > isn't necessary to have a heavy-duty page layout program - MS Word can
> > manage double columns perfectly well. (But Adobe PageMaker is much more
> > fun!)
>
> Definitely! Please, every fanzine editor/producer, listen to this person!Use
> Times New Roman, please! It looks so much more professional. And do
> print like books really are. Left margins with indented paragraphs.
<chuckle> Great minds think alike.
Outpost 9 was done with 2 columns, Times New Roman 11, both margins
justified, indented paragraphs, single-spaced, 1" margins all around (I
had originally set the top & bottom margins to 3/4" then increased it
because the headers/footers were too close to the text) with spacing and
a group of 3 Starfleetesque symbols to mark the end of one section and
the beginning of another. All-in-all, I'd say I reduced the total page
count by 5-7pp.
Outpost 10 will probably look the same, although I *may* reduce the size
of the text boxes with the title/author/illustrator info - in Outpost 9,
they're 1-3/4" by 6-1/2" with New York 18-24, depending on the amount of
information I had to fit into the box. But I'll cross that bridge when I
come to it.
Laura
--
=====
"Look, Mommy, I'm Gul Dukat! Kill me!"
Drew Taylor
dbe...@bordercity.com
"Randy Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Jon suggests
> <<Of course, then you have the problem of exchange rates if people
> from O/S
> want to buy your zine, problems that don't exist when they access the
> stories.>>
>
> Tell me about it. Right now, we've heard from a number of Canadian
> readers that we've lost a lot of them to the current exchange rate
> between US dollars and Canadian dollars.
>
Yeah, really. It's what, 64, 65 cents? And that's about as good we've
seen for a few months.
I've really been caught up by this thread. I've only ever used the 'net as
my forum for posting stories (I refrain from using the word publishing as I
don't think I do it much justice.) I've seen various ads for fanzines on
this newsgroup over the years (Orion Press being one of the more
recognizable), but I've never considered purchasing or even trying to send
submissions to any of them. Do I have an excuse for not buying? Probably
not a terribly good one, although the fact most financial transactions would
involve the Can/Am exchange play a part. I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to
direct order processes. Maybe now that my brother is working down in Iowa
that will change. ;) As for not submitting, well...I've actually thought
about it once or twice before, but I still don't feel confident enough to
make the attempt (and, yes, I do know the adage "you'll never know unless you
try".) I just don't think I've reached the level of writing that would be
considered good enough. No one's ever said as much (although that falls into
the great "feedback" dilemma).
Still, seeing this discussion unfold has put me in a contemplative mood. I
can certainly see the appeal of the fanzine both as reader and writer.
Nothing can beat the experience of holding a book in your hand. Whenever I
finish writing a story I like to make a hard copy of it, just to capture some
experience of what it would be like to see your material on paper. There are
also a couple of stories of mine that I would dearly love to see illustrated.
If I could I'd do it myself, but I'm really a terrible artist (can't have it
all ;). I wouldn't have any desire to attempt my own publishing anyway, I
doubt I'd do very well with it.
But despite all this, I keep plugging away here in the newsgroup, trying to
cull enough skill and confidence to perhaps make an attempt at something
worthy of recognition. Everybody wants their fifteen minutes of fame, after
all.
--
Darrel W. Beach
The Writers' Corner is back up on the Web at
members.tripod.com/~DarrelB/writer-main.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Randy Landers
<<Paper costs and printing costs have risen. >>
Quite. The minimum wage increase raised copy prices 10-20% nationwide.
After all, most folks who work in copy centers make little more than
minimum wage.
Randy Landers
<<All-in-all, I'd say I reduced the total page count by 5-7pp. >>
That's about 25 cents to 35 cents per zine.
Me, I like Times New Roman, 11 pt., space between paragraphs, no
idented paragraphs, blank line, centered 5 asterices, blank line
between sections. But Ann would agree with you, I think. I've decided
to let editors do their own thing when it comes to formatting.
Jungle Kitty
>
> Helsos,
>
> Now, calculate the actual percentage of stories you want to keep from
> each month's download, the factor of printing those pages, the time
> you used to search for those stories...
>
> It's going to be a wash...
Not when you consider how much more I get from the web, other than fan
fic. I use it for email, shopping, research, non-Trek entertainment.
The other thing I get from the web that I can't get from zines is
variety. You don't print erotica in your zines. That's your perogative.
The K/S zines print nothing but K/S. Also their perogative. I enjoy both
erotic and non-erotic Trek stories. So if I want both, I'd have to buy
both K/S zines and Orion Press type zines. Lots of bucks. I also enjoy
erotic pairings other than K/S, and, from what I've been able to
discover, that is not available in zines at all (unless you're
collecting the old ones). If it weren't for the net, I'd think that Kirk
and Spock were the only TOS folk getting it off, and I *know* that's not
true.
The net is filling a niche that the zines aren't, IMO.
--
Jungle Kitty
http://www.accesscom.com/~jkitty
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Why Jungle Kitty Is Always So Tired
(sung to the tune of "Family Tradition" with thanks to Hank, Jr.)
I say it's just my muse, resistance ain't no use
When the captain wants to work up some friction.
If I get stoned and write all night long,
It's just a Treksmut tradition.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Randy Landers
bought one zine--just one zine per visitor in any given month of the
year--we'd have enough revenue to fund the site for a year AND lower
costs of our zines.
Randy Landers
<<This so-called Federal phone surcharge on Internet usage has been
much-rumored for years, but there ain't no such animal. To my
knowledge, it's practically an urban legend.>>
Really? Take a look at these URLs:
"Gore Tax" http://www.goretax.com/ and the Universal Service Act of
1996, and then HR 4065,
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:h.r.04065: introduced to
kill the "Gore Tax".
It's scary 'cause in reality, it's a hidden tax.
Randy Landers
<<Not when you consider how much more I get from the web, other than
fan
fic. I use it for email, shopping, research, non-Trek entertainment.
>>
How much of a percentage of your on-line time is for Trek? Mine's
probably about 95% or more. I subscribe to only four newsgroups, all
Trek-related. My surfing is devoted to fan fiction sites.
Of course, I'm probably an exceptional case given the amount of
material I read daily.
Nanite
wrote:
>The other thing I get from the web that I can't get from zines is
>variety.
Thank goodness for that- I like to buy specific groups only. Glad that
I know where to find my P/C.
No matter what anyone else says, I still relish the feeling of opening
the mailbox and getting a present. There's nothing like a real zine in
the tub!
Nanite
<randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Of course, I'm probably an exceptional case given the amount of
>material I read daily.
Exceptional, valuable, resourceful, incredible.... they don't begin to
describe you, Randy!
(I have to categorze my trek bookmarks just like everyone else so
they'll fit on the screen. 90% is probably a low guess to net time
usage!)
as...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
>Sharron
>who will remain a faithful Orion reader--when's Fire and Ice II coming
>out ?? ;-) (BTW: what do you think of the subject line-- sounds like
>a new ASC column to me-- "Hey Randy!"--advice/discussion on fanzine
>publishing/submission or whatever.)
Hi Sharron,
Thanks to Randy and all the wonderful contributors and readers, there
will be a Fire and Ice 2. It will be ready in June 1999, just in time
for Shore Leave. Anyone willing to contribute a Beverly Crusher
story or artwork please contact me.
As for "Hey Randy!" - I agree, it does sound like a column.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a usenet group to discuss/ advertise
Star Trek zines?
--Gwyn <as...@ix.netcom.com>
(posting to usenet for the very first time - hope this works)
Jungle Kitty
>
> Jungle Kitty writes
> <<Not when you consider how much more I get from the web, other than
> fan
> fic. I use it for email, shopping, research, non-Trek entertainment.
> >>
>
> How much of a percentage of your on-line time is for Trek? Mine's
> probably about 95% or more. I subscribe to only four newsgroups, all
> Trek-related. My surfing is devoted to fan fiction sites.
My Trek-related time quotient *is* pretty high, but I'd say that more of
that goes into email than visiting newsgroups to get stories.
AKite68163
replies, I knew there was no way I had
time to go throught them all. I just had to
reply. I look back over my shoulder from
my computer and see maybe 150 fanzines.
A good deal of them came from Orion press.
I'm a writer myself, but decided to go the
net route instead of the fanzine route in
order to get my stories to the people that
might want to read them. Just so you know,
I write slash, which is not what Orion press
is into, which is fine for me.
I will confess that I'm not buying as many
fanzines as I have in the past now due to
finiacial problems more than anything. I do
cruise the Orion press table when they come
to local cons here in the Houston area, and
I don't think I've ever left the table empty
handed.
Okay, my point is, yes I have one. <g> I'd
hate to see fanzines cess to exist even in
this electronic age. There's nothing like the
trill of opening an envelope when you know
there's a zine inside it or toting home a few
choice selections of fanfic from a con to me.
That's all I wanted to say.
A. Kite
Stephen Ratliff
: On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:29:34 GMT, "powellfamily" <pow...@seacove.net>
: wrote:
: >Sharron
: >who will remain a faithful Orion reader--when's Fire and Ice II coming
: >out ?? ;-) (BTW: what do you think of the subject line-- sounds like
: >a new ASC column to me-- "Hey Randy!"--advice/discussion on fanzine
: >publishing/submission or whatever.)
:
: Hi Sharron,
:
: Thanks to Randy and all the wonderful contributors and readers, there
: will be a Fire and Ice 2. It will be ready in June 1999, just in time
: for Shore Leave. Anyone willing to contribute a Beverly Crusher
: story or artwork please contact me.
:
: As for "Hey Randy!" - I agree, it does sound like a column.
: Wouldn't it be nice to have a usenet group to discuss/ advertise
: Star Trek zines?
Actually, reading ASC's purpose, as stated in the FAQ:
Alt.StarTrek.Creative is for the posting of Creative Star Trek fan works
(stories, poems, documentation) and discussion of those works, Star Trek
Fan works in general, and issues effecting those works.
Discussion of Trek Zines would be considered on topic. However,
advertizing (as in offering for sale at price $X.XX) would more properly
fit in rec.arts.startrek.fandom (possibly the most misnamed group in all
of USENET) That being said, I have no objection to posts about where to
contact zine editors about their latest releases. Heck, I know some
authors who use to post "Coming Soon" posts, and that's not far off.
So, here is what I'll suggest, a servay of how many of such Zine posts
could be expected should be made. If a great enough volume is
discovered (say enough for 30 posts / day) then Someone should write a
proposal for alt.startrek.fanzine or the like. If not, then I think ASC
can stand a few more posts.
Stephen Ratliff, whose seen quite a bit of spin off groups since he
first posted to USENET some 5 years ago.
--
Stephen Ratliff CS Major, Radford University.
srat...@runet.edu Radford, Virginia 24142-7496
rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc's polite target. Marrissa Stories Author
http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/
http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/FAQs/ FAQ Maintainer for ASC.
http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/ascindex/ Index Maintainer too.
also at: http://archive.nu/
"But why me? Why did it have to be me?" "Because it could be no one else?"
-- Sisko and the Sarah-prophet, DS9's Shadows and Symbols
Helsos
>each month's download,
I only download those I want to keep.
> the factor of printing those pages,
Um, no, they go on a zip disk.
> the time
>you used to search for those stories...
Much less than that spent obtaining zines...
Another factor is the availability of the net stories... I know you send out a
comprehensive catalogue of your zines, but most publishers do not. Fan run
cons are an excellent place to find zines (new & old) but fan run cons are also
a vanishing breed in the face of the media/corporate run cons with the big name
talent that is zipped in for the show and then (after an extra-cost autograph
session, whisked away). The 3 day cons such as Shore Leave and Farpoint are few
and far between. So no wonder most of the fans are unaware of the availability
and the value of the zines.
>
>It's going to be a wash...
>
Unfortunately (for the zine publishers) it is weighted in favor of the net.
PJBall
>Can you reduce the page count by altering the layout? I don't have my
>Eridani 29 at the moment, but #28 has unnecessarily wide margins, and
>flush-left paragraphs (in a sans-serif font - not good!) separated by a
>line space. If you used two columns, with indented paragraphs and slightly
>smaller margins, you could pack in a *lot* more words per page, reducing
>the page count but not the word count and so offering your customers better
>value for money. I don't know what program is used for setting, but it
>isn't necessary to have a heavy-duty page layout program - MS Word can
>manage double columns perfectly well. (But Adobe PageMaker is much more
>fun!)
As the editor of Eridani, let me reply to this. I use Word 95 to do my
layout. The font is Arial 11 point (usually). I suspect that I'll be doing a
little alteration on my layouts based on what I learned while doing the last
"Four Lights" (reducing the margins primarily), but I have no intention of
going to a 2-column format since I personally dislike reading such a format.
Packing in as much print on a page can be counter-productive (especially to
those of us rapidly-aging folks), and I doubt it'd reduce the cost of the zines
all that much.
I use flush-left because it seemed to be the Orion format when I took over the
editing on Eridani, and to be quite frank, it's a lot easier to do it that way.
p.s. I certainly hope to get the next Eridani out for the January quarterly
report. Unfortunately, real life intruded so I didn't get it out for this
quarter's releases.
Priscilla
Kattz
<randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Anna writes
><<Paper costs and printing costs have risen. >>
>
>Quite. The minimum wage increase raised copy prices 10-20% nationwide.
>After all, most folks who work in copy centers make little more than
>minimum wage.
>
>--
>Randy Landers
>ORION PRESS
What's so special about photocopies? Is a photocopied story more durable
or better looking than a story printed on a laser printer with good quality
paper that doesn't let print show through.
Kattz
Index Summary Editor for Alt.StarTrek.Creative
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/1278/ASC-menu.htm
kira_...@my-dejanews.com
"Randy Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Actually, we do have an ORION PRESS email list that we maintain. Lots
> of folks here on this group receive it. In fact, if you email me,
> you'll probably be added to the list.
Well I meant sending your information to other mailinglists. To be able join
your list one has to know it exists.. I know there's a place called something
like www.liszt.com where you can find lots of lists, search on star trek and
you should ba able to find lots of lists that deal with Star Trek. Then you
could send an advertisement mail (some lists have restrictions Like you have
to be subscribed to make this advertisement) but if you do it only once maybe
it is okay. Or talk to the maintainer about it.
There's also www.onelist.com
And www.egroups.com
> Ooooh. Good point. I'd forgotten that was on there. At our previous
> ISP, we were being charged for excessive bandwidth. At Mindspring, we
> haven't reached that point yet. I'll delete those. Thanks!
Then i guess it *is* okay to put up a link to you then???
kira-nerys
cvic...@my-dejanews.com
> > Tell me about it. Right now, we've heard from a number of Canadian
> > readers that we've lost a lot of them to the current exchange rate
> > between US dollars and Canadian dollars.
This doesn't really apply to your specific press, Randy, but one problem I
have found in looking for zines is that the zine publishers:
- don't accept credit cards (understandable, given it's a cottage industry)
- don't accept cash
- don't accept postal money orders
- don't accept cheques drawn on a Canadian bank
- don't accept money orders unless they're drawn on a US bank
Which means I can't buy the zine, since I don't live near the US border and
can't get to a US bank for a money order.
And, to be honest, with the Canadian dollar going down the tubes, I'm a lot
more careful with what I spend my money on. When the dollar goes down, prices
on imported goods (e.g. food, clothing, and other frills) go up. I simply
have less money for books and other items. Internet access costs the same no
matter how long I stay online (within reason), but zines and other books are
suddenly out of reach.
--
Charlene Vickers
Fanfic at http://users.internorth.com/~cvickers/Trek.htm
Randy Landers
<<What's so special about photocopies? Is a photocopied story more
durable
or better looking than a story printed on a laser printer with good
quality
paper that doesn't let print show through.>>
For one thing, an average laser printer costs around 10-15 cents per
page and takes, say, three seconds. Couldn't print the zines that way,
let alone sell them. Printing out Oscwiecem (chk sp) on your laser
printer would cost more than ordering three copies from Gabrielle.
And if you've got an ink jet, probably far more.
--
Randy Landers
ORION PRESS
Randy Landers
actually started work on an article on fanzine publishing, and should
post it to this newsgroup in the next six weeks.
I'm not sure that alt.startrek.fanzines would be a bad idea, but don't
look to me to take on any duties. As one contributor pointed out, it's
all the things that I have to do already that may be wearing me down.
:)
Randy Landers
<<Then i guess it *is* okay to put up a link to you then???>>
Absolutely it is okay. (paraphrasing...Chekov? here)
Joyce Harmon
randyl...@mindspring.com says...
>
>For one thing, an average laser printer costs around 10-15 cents per
>page and takes, say, three seconds. Couldn't print the zines that way,
>let alone sell them. Printing out Oscwiecem (chk sp) on your laser
>printer would cost more than ordering three copies from Gabrielle.
Huh?! I've only been skimming this thread, since I'm not a zine producer,
but this statistic caught my eye. Laser printers cost 10-15 cents a page?
How do you figure?
I have a laser printer, and buy paper for around $30 a case (10 reams), and
went through two cases before I needed a new cartridge for $150. I figured
from that that my costs were around 2 cents a page. That's why I never
send a SASE with my submissions, since the return postage is more expensive
than printing a fresh copy. Is there some hidden cost I haven't been
taking into my calculations?
Joyce
Kattz
Redshoes) wrote:
>On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:59:05 -0400 in alt.startrek.creative, "Randy
>Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>>Actually, you _are_ paying for it through your Internet fees. And in
>>case you haven't noticed, the phone companies are adding a new Federal
>>surcharge on Internet usage on your phone bill. One month's bill for
>>unlimited access can be, say $19.95. That's more than the price of a
>>zine. And you may get more fiction, but you might find that the number
>
>This so-called Federal phone surcharge on Internet usage has been
>much-rumored for years, but there ain't no such animal. To my
>knowledge, it's practically an urban legend.
The urban legend hit our July 25 phone bill.
AT&T Message on our phone bill
Your bill has two changes. The FCC has altered the way long
distance carriers pay access fees to local phone companies.
AT&T is now recovering some of its average per customer
access costs in the form of a monthly Carrier Line Charge of
$0.85/account. Also, the FCC extended the Universal Service
Fund not only to help provide affordable phone service but
also to give schools and libraries access to the Internet.
AT&T must contribute to this Fund and is assessing a monthly
Universal Connectivity Charge of $0.93/account instead of
the previously announced 5%.
They are added together under the title: National Access Contribution.
Those prices are in addition to our normal basic phone charges and our
unlimited Internet payment.
Arthur Kraft
Speaking of Zines, Fanzines, here is a interesting website or should I
say webring that I found this morning that might be a of some use to
Orion Press and other fanzine writers and publishers.
It is called SF Zines WebRing found at
http://backinthe.ussr.net/sfzines/
Check it out...
Arthur Kraft
Primary/Private Email: art...@vol.com
Homepage: http://earth.vol.com/~arthur/index.htm
FanFiction Page:
http://earth.vol.com/~arthur/frames/fanfic/content.htm
ICQ# 3909951
E-Mail Express: mailto:390...@pager.mirabilis.com,art...@vol.com
Katie Redshoes
That does not sound like a surcharge on an individual's Internet
usage, however, which is what Randy's original message seemed to imply
to me. Nor is it the same as the long-rumored modem surcharge. I
have no objection to helping to support library and school access to
the Internet.
--
Constable Katie Collecter/Formatter, ASC Archive team
ASC archive: http://archive.nu or http://www.cs.runet.edu/~sratliff/ascindex
Submissions: submissions# webamused.com
Corrections: r.lerret# usa.net
Remove "NOJUNK" or replace # to reply
Laura Jacquez Valentine
hey, randy, not nice to excerpt my mail to you and not credit me.
*pout*
> From: "Randy Landers" <randyl...@mindspring.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.startrek.creative
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:35:56 -0400
> Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
>
> Katie says
> <<This so-called Federal phone surcharge on Internet usage has been
> much-rumored for years, but there ain't no such animal. To my
> knowledge, it's practically an urban legend.>>
>
Randy Landers
<<This doesn't really apply to your specific press, Randy, but one
problem I
have found in looking for zines is that the zine publishers:
<<- don't accept credit cards (understandable, given it's a cottage
industry)
<<- don't accept cash
<<- don't accept postal money orders
<<- don't accept cheques drawn on a Canadian bank
<<- don't accept money orders unless they're drawn on a US bank
<<Which means I can't buy the zine, since I don't live near the US
border and
can't get to a US bank for a money order.>>
Yes, it's true that we do accept credit cards, cash, Canadian Postal
Money Orders, but we cannot accept checks or money orders drawn on
banks outside the US. There's simply no one in South Georgia who will
honor such checks. We got a bank draft from the Bank of Turin in
Italy, and it cost us $12 to cash it through Security Bank.
<<And, to be honest, with the Canadian dollar going down the tubes,
I'm a lot
more careful with what I spend my money on. When the dollar goes down,
prices
on imported goods (e.g. food, clothing, and other frills) go up. I
simply
have less money for books and other items. Internet access costs the
same no
matter how long I stay online (within reason), but zines and other
books are
suddenly out of reach.>>
Changing global economies does impact zines. We used to have a lot
more Pacific Rim purchases (especially from Japan, South Korea and the
Phillipines), but with the collapse of the Pacific Rim economy, those
days are long gone...
Randy Landers
<<That does not sound like a surcharge on an individual's Internet
usage, however, which is what Randy's original message seemed to imply
to me.>>
Actually, ISPs will be applying the same tax within the next few
months as they were hit with it, too. The idea of taxing a big
corporation or company is always appealing, except for the fact that
the big corporation or company is going to pass along such a tax to
the consumers, as several have begun to do. So, Katie, you will, in
essence, be double-taxed. Once by your phone company, and once by your
ISP. That IS a surcharge on Internet usage.
>>I have no objection to helping to support library and school access
to
the Internet.<<
I do. Why should Georgians foot the bill for the short-sightedness of
other states. Our state lottery's proceeds pay for all sorts of
technological enhancements to our school system. In fact, the Georgia
lottery has been heralded as the savior for our school systems. Worth
County, where I taught for seven years, has constructed entirely new
school buildings, all with Internet access, all with Satellite TV
access, all with TVs in each classroom with video disk players, and
computers as well. It's not a very wealthy school system, but the
lottery proceeds have readied it for the 21st century. Along comes the
FCC's illegal, and now Georgians have to pay for something every
school child in the state has.
I don't object to supporting this access; I object to the illegal
means by which it was enacted.
Randy Landers
<<I have a laser printer, and buy paper for around $30 a case (10
reams), and
went through two cases before I needed a new cartridge for $150. I
figured
from that that my costs were around 2 cents a page. That's why I
never
send a SASE with my submissions, since the return postage is more
expensive
than printing a fresh copy. Is there some hidden cost I haven't been
taking into my calculations?>>
Paper presently retails for $39.99, although wholesale rates are
around $20.00 per case. Two cases of paper is 10,000 sheets. If you
get that many printed pages per cartridge, they must be enormous.
That's a greater yield per bottle than we get on our high speed Ricoh
7670 copier (~9500 copies per bottle).
When I'm printing out the masters for our fanzines, my personal laser
printer at home gets around 1000-2000 pages per cartridge if I'm
lucky. Of course, I'm printing out the originals for fanzines filled
with text and artwork, not mostly blank pages as I get when I print
out email or posts. With the cost of paper and the cartridge, that's
around 8 cents a page. Of course, too, I've got it in high-quality
mode. If you've got it in draft mode, then you're going to really
extend the life of your printer cartridge. But, wow, copy centers make
a lot of money off various offices around town because laser printing
IS far more expensive than running to Fast Copy or Kinko's.
I've got a HP DeskJet II plus that I bought in 1989. Presently it has
77998 pages printed out for around 8700 copies per year. I've bought
six cartridges so far this year, and I'm flabbergasted that you've got
such a fantastic yield on your printer. Factoring in $30.00 per case
of paper, and $90 per cartridge, that's around 6 cents per printed
page, and I'm buying supplies wholesale. The retail rate would be 10
cents per printed page. That's not including sales tax.
Plus there's one other thing you're not taking into consideration: the
cost of the printer itself. That would put it well into the 10-15 cent
per page bracket, hence my initial estimate.
Randy Landers
to be presumptuous and lay the blame at your feet. :)
EMSeifert
>newsletter? The biggest Star Trek club in Germany has thousands of
>members and you can even buy their monthly newsletter
The STar Trek Welcommittee used to have a directory that listed all known ST
clubs and fanzines. But it folded last year due to lack of interest. People
just weren't asking for them.
EMSeifert
>>knows, my site's listed everywhere these days, and I advertise in THE
>>NEW MONTHLY.
I think this might be part of the problem. I do a print series of DS9 zines.
I've got ads up in GAZ and The Monthly and know I've been listed on various
sites. I've also put mini-ads on this board and others. But I'd have to say
that most of the orders come from the DS9 clubs I'm in. Perhaps a fanzine site
with listings and excerpts available to any publisher is the way to go.
Newsgroup or other. That would help take the place of the old STW directory;
indeed it would be even better.
Another reason I think print zines are hurting: I'm still very new at this
(only 3 years) but one thing I have noticed is that there seems to be a
"clique" in fandom. Unless you're one of the "good ole boys" from the original
heydey of fandom, you're ignored - by long time fans and by other zine
publishers. If nothing else, the online stuff is bringing in people who have
never heard of zines. I'm constantly recommending other people's zines to my
customers, especially since many of them are new to fandom and have never heard
of zines until they ordered one of mine. (Also there aren't many DS9 zines
out there.) But, to be blunt, I've rarely gotten queries about my zines from
the "names" in fanzine publishing. I sometimes get the idea that fanzine
publishing is a closed club and how dare anyone new intrude on it. At least,
the ST zines seem to be; there are only 2 of us out there doing Hogan's Heroes
zines. Perhaps that's an unfair impression, but from where I sit, it's also a
true impression. Perhaps fanzine publishers need to be more supportive of
others in the field. Ways to do so: Advertise other zines in theirs, or include
flyers from other zines with their mailings. (I'm perfectly willing to send
anyone brochures for my zines.) Read other publishers' zines and then
recommend them to their readers. Circulate lists of cons with Orphan Zine
Tables. All of that helps to broaden the base of readers. The competition zine
publishers face is not each other. It'is the free stuff online.
Another problem, though it's not one with Orion Press, or Clean Slate or
KnightWriter and others, is that some zine publishers act as if they're doing
you a favor if they condescend to fill your order in 6 months or take a year to
answer a query, if they ever do. If I had that kind of a response when I first
discovered zines, I wouldn't have bothered doing it again. I've been burned a
couple of times, but I know that's the exception and not the rule.
Eva Seifert
Randy Landers
<<I'd have to say that most of the orders come from the DS9 clubs I'm
in.
Perhaps a fanzine site with listings and excerpts available to any
publisher
is the way to go. Newsgroup or other. That would help take the place
of the
old STW directory; indeed it would be even better. >>
I agree. The GAZ and THE NEW MONTHLY would better serve fandom by
having an Internet version of their adzine, BUT, they both face the
same problem. They need subscribers to pay for the printed zines, and
posting them on the net means they're hurting their market, making the
prices for the zines go higher. Catch 22 -- Again!
<<Another reason I think print zines are hurting: I'm still very new
at this
(only 3 years) but one thing I have noticed is that there seems to be
a
"clique" in fandom. Unless you're one of the "good ole boys" from the
original
heydey of fandom, you're ignored - by long time fans and by other zine
publishers.>>
Quite true. When I got started way back when (and we're talking 1979
as far as our first publishing of zines), the "good ol' GALS" didn't
care for that Redneck boy from Georgia putting out a non-K/S zine. I'm
exaggerating a bit, but that network of fans would have NOTHING to do
with l'il ol' me. Today, we're honored with Joan Winston being a
regular contributor to ORION PRESS, and both Jacqueline Lichtenberg
and Jean Lorrah have nice things to say about us. But... I can think
of at least two dozen editors in the late 70's and early-to-mid 80's
that snubbed me. I was of the 2nd generation of fans; I usually had to
go to bed before Star Trek was on (just as my kids do--bedtime is 8:15
on school nights). It wasn't until WTCG Channel 17 in Atlanta (now
Superstation TBS) started airing Trek at GOOD times to watch that I
became active in fandom.
<<If nothing else, the online stuff is bringing in people who have
never heard of zines. I'm constantly recommending other people's
zines to my customers, especially since many of them are new to fandom
and have never heard
of zines until they ordered one of mine. (Also there aren't many DS9
zines
out there.)>>
I think this is a result of the factionalization of DS9 fans. The
Sisko fans don't want Odo/Kira who don't want Worf/Dax who detest
Bashir/Dax who wish there weren't any Sisko fans. A mixed zine like
OUTPOST 9 has a hard time pulling in all of the people even some of
the time.
<<But, to be blunt, I've rarely gotten queries about my zines from the
"names" in fanzine publishing. I sometimes get the idea that fanzine
publishing is a closed club and how dare anyone new intrude on it. >>
I hope that hasn't been the impression you've gotten from us, Eva.
Nothing would please me more than for there to be a hundred Trek
fanzines.
BTW, getting back to the NEW MONTHLY and GAZ thing. When Universal
Translator ceased publication, I think much of Trek zinedom fell
apart. We'd come to rely so heavily on that one adzine that when it
was gone, we had no real lines of communication.
<<Perhaps fanzine publishers need to be more supportive of
others in the field.>>
Absolutely.
<<Ways to do so: Advertise other zines in theirs, or include
flyers from other zines with their mailings. (I'm perfectly willing to
send
anyone brochures for my zines.)>>
I send out flyers for folks that send them to me.
<<Read other publishers' zines and then recommend them to their
readers. Circulate lists of cons with Orphan Zine Tables. All of that
helps to broaden the base of readers. The competition zine publishers
face is not each other. It'is the free stuff online. >>
Amen.
<<Another problem, though it's not one with Orion Press, or Clean
Slate or
KnightWriter and others, is that some zine publishers act as if
they're doing
you a favor if they condescend to fill your order in 6 months or take
a year to
answer a query, if they ever do. If I had that kind of a response when
I first
discovered zines, I wouldn't have bothered doing it again. I've been
burned a
couple of times, but I know that's the exception and not the rule.>>
We fill zine orders within three days of receipt. Actually, we process
the orders and fill the envelopes with the zines, but our USPS pickup
is only Tuesday and Friday.
However, I've probably been burned a dozen times in lo these 20 years
as a publisher. That's not really a significant number considering the
number of zines I've read.
Randy Landers
<<The STar Trek Welcommittee used to have a directory that listed all
known ST
clubs and fanzines. But it folded last year due to lack of interest.
People
just weren't asking for them.>>
Don't get me started here. Just don't. Shirley Maiewski and I nearly
buried our hachets in one another's backs several times over their
lack of organization.
Did ya ever notice...
The Star Trek Welcommittee served the same function as the
rec.arts.startrek heirarchy, especially news and info.
The monthly discussion zine Interstat served the same function as the
alt.tv.startrek heirarchy, except trolls didn't exist. Well, maybe
they did after all, thinking about some of the more heated discussions
between the BNFs (big name fans) and all.
Trek fanzines served the same function as the alt.startrek.creative
heirarchy.
Star Trek fan clubs with monthly meetings served the same function as
any discussion group or Trek chat rooms on the net.
Progress may be nice, but I'd bet that more than half the folks in
this newsgroup have never:
1) bought or read a zine (ezines don't count).
2) been to a monthly Trek club meeting (internet clubs don't count)
3) been to a Star Trek convention
Gabrielle Lawson
cvic...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> This doesn't really apply to your specific press, Randy, but one problem I
> have found in looking for zines is that the zine publishers:
>
> - don't accept credit cards (understandable, given it's a cottage industry)
> - don't accept cash
> - don't accept postal money orders
> - don't accept cheques drawn on a Canadian bank
> - don't accept money orders unless they're drawn on a US bank
Can't speak for anyone but myself. I don't accept credit because I haveno means
for dealing with it.
I have warned against sending cash through the mail, but all but one
of my British customers has sent cash without a problem. I accept it
if it arrives here.
I'd accept any postal money order my bank would accept. Checks too.
I'd just have to check with my bank.
But hey, my stories are also on the Internet. I'm open to that route as well.
--
--Gabrielle
I'd much rather be writing!
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/2460
Kattz
<randyl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Actually, ISPs will be applying the same tax within the next few
>months as they were hit with it, too. The idea of taxing a big
>corporation or company is always appealing, except for the fact that
>the big corporation or company is going to pass along such a tax to
>the consumers, as several have begun to do. So, Katie, you will, in
>essence, be double-taxed. Once by your phone company, and once by your
>ISP. That IS a surcharge on Internet usage.
Since our ISP is our phone company that probably won't affect us .. unless,
hmmm, maybe that was the reason there was an increase in the basic rates in
the May phone bill before the FCC change in the July phone bill.
PensNest
Gabrielle Lawson <gla...@gwu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>cvic...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>>> This doesn't really apply to your specific press, Randy, but one problem I
>>> have found in looking for zines is that the zine publishers:
>>>
>>> - don't accept credit cards (understandable, given it's a cottage industry)
>>> - don't accept cash
>>> - don't accept postal money orders
>>> - don't accept cheques drawn on a Canadian bank
>>> - don't accept money orders unless they're drawn on a US bank
>>
>>Can't speak for anyone but myself. I don't accept credit because I have no means
>>for dealing with it.
>>
>>I have warned against sending cash through the mail, but all but one
>>of my British customers has sent cash without a problem. I accept it
>>if it arrives here.
>>
>>I'd accept any postal money order my bank would accept. Checks too.
>>I'd just have to check with my bank.
These days I think zine publishers have to make it as easy as possible for
people to purchase. Kudos to Orion for accepting credit cards, but as both
the above posters noted, it's usually a cottage industry and most of us
can't do that.
I find it puzzling that publishers won't accept cash... but on reflection I
assume cvickers meant that they won't accept foreign cash. Well, that's
fair, given the cost of exchanging currency - unless you get a good
quantity from one country, it really isn't economic, and as we all know,
zine publishing is expensive.
The various forms of money order can be expensive, too, as Randy points out
somewhere else in this thread. I was outraged to find that a recent
Eurocheque for an AIR subscription did not pass straightforwardly into my
bank account, even though it was in sterling, *because it was drawn on a
foreign bank*. Good grief!
I am led to believe that it is difficult for US citizens to get hold of
foreign currency - whereas I can stroll into any high street bank and get
dollars, francs or whatever on the spot. So when I want an American zine
I'm likely to pay in cash, or else set up an exchange of some kind. So
far, it has worked perfectly well. In a hopeful attempt to encourage
orders from the USA I'm accepting payment in US$ cash, on the assumption
that I can either use the dollars to pay for future purchases of my own, or
at least change them in reasonable quantities - one of these years!
And they say it's a cashless society...
Pen
***D-Tales - the new Data anthology***
email pensnest at globalnet.co.uk
MingNo1
one thing seems to be missing in most of this talk. Do you read more then one
story at a time--do you take the zine--story--to the Bathroom to contimplate.
When you go back to get the story someone told you about--is it there?After
tracking on line material for 2 years and being a Fan Editor myself as well I
can see problems on line as well. How often do you actually print out a story??
Laura Taylor
> I find it puzzling that publishers won't accept cash... but on reflection I
> assume cvickers meant that they won't accept foreign cash.
Although that is true, it's also an issue of security. Mail theft is not
as uncommon as we'd like to think, and an envelope with cash in it is
like waving a red flag in front of a bull. At least if an envelope
containing a check or a credit card order is stolen, there's some chance
of tracing the theft back to the perpetrator.
> I am led to believe that it is difficult for US citizens to get hold of
> foreign currency
*Very* difficult if you don't live in a major city - even if it happens
to be a city with a Federal Reserve bank in it. I live in a city with
about 95,000 residents and several large banks, yet I had to wait 3 days
for a sterling check draft request to be processed (and pay a $20.00
processing fee). Even on a Greek island where motor vehicles are
prohibited, it was easier to exchange currency :-|
Laura
--
=====
"Look, Mommy, I'm Gul Dukat! Kill me!"
Drew Taylor
PJBall
Speaking for myself, I print out everything. And I download and save the Trek
stories on my hard drive. I hate to read stuff off the computer screen, plus I
read a lot of stuff in bed (kinda hard to take that computer in with me <G>).
And I also print out stories for my friend who has no computer access. I still
like the feeling of the paper.
Randy Landers
<<I am led to believe that it is difficult for US citizens to get hold
of
get
dollars, francs or whatever on the spot. So when I want an American
zine
I'm likely to pay in cash, or else set up an exchange of some kind.
So
far, it has worked perfectly well. In a hopeful attempt to encourage
orders from the USA I'm accepting payment in US$ cash, on the
assumption
that I can either use the dollars to pay for future purchases of my
own, or
at least change them in reasonable quantities - one of these years!>>
Actually, I've tried to purchase foreign currency in a bank in order
to send off for a fanzine. Got told "Sorry, no."
I do remember in France, Monaco, Italy and Switzerland being able to
use dollars or francs or marks pretty much anywhere I went.
Randy Landers
<<Although that is true, it's also an issue of security. Mail theft is
not
as uncommon as we'd like to think, and an envelope with cash in it is
like waving a red flag in front of a bull. At least if an envelope
containing a check or a credit card order is stolen, there's some
chance
of tracing the theft back to the perpetrator.>>
We had three orders with cash all from Germany that were never
received. We cannot honor cash orders (in fact, one sent her certified
postage receipt back, and so we sent her her zine--I took the receipt
to the post office who said it was forged, and I was out $36).
--
Randy Landers
<<How often do you actually print out a story??>>
I don't read stories off the screen. I can't without developing
eyestrain.
Randy Landers
of our foreign customers DO send cash.