Patrick Incompentence Redux
Marc Green
A while back, I wrote that Craig Patrick was incompentent. This
illicited many posts about what genius the man is. By now, however,
I assume that virtually everyone would agree that he has driven
the team right into the ground.
The current version of the Penguinns consists of 3 top level forwards,
Lemieux, Francis, Jagr obviously) and one other skill player in Nedved.
The other 8-10 forwards are a collection of fourth liners and castoffs
from other teams. The defense has Kasper and Hatcher and with a bunch of
guys cut (JJ, Leroux) or bench warmers (Wooley, Olausson) from other
teams.
For goalies he has Wregget, Mr. Mediocre and LaLime, Mr. 5 hole.
How has he brought the Pens to this point? In 6 years of drafting,
he has managed to produce exactly LaLime, Tamer, Roche, Wilkinson
(indirectly for Straka) and Stoj (for Nasland). Hardly a decent player
in the lot. And it's not because they've drafted low. Guys like
Alfredsson and Daze were picked in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
Then there's his trades. He's been living on the Francis deal for
years. After that, he's been a disaster. He gets a lot of
credit from the ignorant for the the Wregget-Samualson-Tocchet deal.
Well, the Pens didn't win the Stanley cup because of this deal. The
only player who contributee significantly was Tocchet, but the
Pens won 12 straight games, so Tocchet was hardly the difference
between a cup and no cup. What about this deal today? Wregget is
still a mediocre backup level goalies while Recchi and Coffey
are still playing in all-star games.
He followed this deal with a string of nothing trades and a few outright
disasters, like giving away Scott Young, whom they could desperately
use. Then there was his pure and simple bungling of losing Kevin Todd
and Greg Brown through carelessness.
He's given a lot of credit for the trades he made to turn the team
around. Hmm, it's beginning to look like ther turn around was more
due to the schedule than to his trades. The Pens still look very
bad against good teams.
Let's look at these trades. He got Kasper for Smolinski. Sure Kasper
is a help, but Smolinski is scoring at a 40 goal clip. This could
hardly be termed a "good deal." Then he got Hicks and Olausson for
Miranov and Antoski. This only looks good because Miranov was so bad.
Trading Sandstrom for Greg Johnson was horrible. Sure, Sandstrom
wasn't producing, but he just might turn back to form. If he does
they'll have a decent second line, if not, well, they're cooked anyway.
With Johnson, a career fourth liner, there isn't even a dim chance of
having a decent second line. It just makes no sense.
I agree that Stu Barnes was a good pick up. But you have to wonder
if trading Welles was so smart. It like Sandstrom: Welles may not
turn out to be much of a player, but given the miserable state
of the farm system, he was the best hope. At least it was worth
a shot. If didn't pan out, then they were in big trouble anyway.
Moreover, there is a troubling trend in his recent trades like the
Barnes for Welles deal. It's obvious that you need size to win in the
NHL. But Patrick has been trading down, way down, in size. In
Johnson, Hicks, Barnes and Johansson, he's virtually cornered the market
on smallish, unskilled players. Maybe they should just change
the team name to the Pittsburgh Pigmies. As side from the first line
and Dz, they have no one to bump with teams like the Flyers.
I saved the biggest indictment against Patrick until last - EJ as coach.
This hardly needs amplification.
Next year, without Lemieux and Francis a year older, it's hard to imagine
the Pens being even a .500 team. And thanks to Patrick, they don't have
a single blue chip prospect in the farm system.
Look like the post-Lemieux era is going to be a bleak as the pre-Lemieux
one. The difference this time the Pens are a small market team. It was
fun whiler it lasted.
Marc Green
nex...@wf.net
On 19 Feb 1997 20:51:15 GMT, gr...@yorku.ca (Marc Green) wrote:
>A while back, I wrote that Craig Patrick was incompentent. This
>illicited many posts about what genius the man is. By now, however,
>I assume that virtually everyone would agree that he has driven
>the team right into the ground.
>
Totaly wrong
>The current version of the Penguinns consists of 3 top level forwards,
>Lemieux, Francis, Jagr obviously) and one other skill player in Nedved.
>The other 8-10 forwards are a collection of fourth liners and castoffs
>from other teams. The defense has Kasper and Hatcher and with a bunch of
>guys cut (JJ, Leroux) or bench warmers (Wooley, Olausson) from other
>teams.
>
Most teams would be lucky to have only 8-10 fourth liners and
castoffs. Show me another team that has 2 extreemely high calibure
players like Mario and Jaromir...a greatly underrated setup man in
Francis...and another potential 100 point scorer in Nedved. Also, I
doubt that there are more than 2 teams that would bench Wooley or
Olausson. They may not be the best, but then again, no team has 6
great defensmen. No team is perfect.
>For goalies he has Wregget, Mr. Mediocre and LaLime, Mr. 5 hole.
Mr 5 hole?...don't you mean Mr Roy Jr?
>How has he brought the Pens to this point? In 6 years of drafting,
>he has managed to produce exactly LaLime, Tamer, Roche, Wilkinson
>(indirectly for Straka) and Stoj (for Nasland). Hardly a decent player
>in the lot. And it's not because they've drafted low. Guys like
>Alfredsson and Daze were picked in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
>
Lalaime(record breaker)...rest so-so. Everyone knows it is MOSTLY
luck that gets a team an awesom rookie like like a Jagr or Selanne.
>Then there's his trades. He's been living on the Francis deal for
>years. After that, he's been a disaster. He gets a lot of
>credit from the ignorant for the the Wregget-Samualson-Tocchet deal.
>Well, the Pens didn't win the Stanley cup because of this deal. The
>only player who contributee significantly was Tocchet, but the
>Pens won 12 straight games, so Tocchet was hardly the difference
>between a cup and no cup. What about this deal today? Wregget is
>still a mediocre backup level goalies while Recchi and Coffey
>are still playing in all-star games.
>
Stop living in the past
>He followed this deal with a string of nothing trades and a few outright
>disasters, like giving away Scott Young, whom they could desperately
>use. Then there was his pure and simple bungling of losing Kevin Todd
>and Greg Brown through carelessness.
>
Past again
>He's given a lot of credit for the trades he made to turn the team
>around. Hmm, it's beginning to look like ther turn around was more
>due to the schedule than to his trades. The Pens still look very
>bad against good teams.
>
>Let's look at these trades. He got Kasper for Smolinski. Sure Kasper
>is a help, but Smolinski is scoring at a 40 goal clip. This could
>hardly be termed a "good deal." Then he got Hicks and Olausson for
>Miranov and Antoski. This only looks good because Miranov was so bad.
>Trading Sandstrom for Greg Johnson was horrible. Sure, Sandstrom
>wasn't producing, but he just might turn back to form. If he does
>they'll have a decent second line, if not, well, they're cooked anyway.
>With Johnson, a career fourth liner, there isn't even a dim chance of
>having a decent second line. It just makes no sense.
>
If the Pens needed more scoring, then they would not have drafted a
goalie. The Pens have scoring comming out their WAZOO! Kasper is a
hard hitter and can take people out of the play, somthing that
Smolinsky couldnt offer(obviously) Also, If you put Smoke on the top
lines of any team, he would score some goals, but a low skilled
player like that has no place on the top lines of the elite pens
>I agree that Stu Barnes was a good pick up. But you have to wonder
>if trading Welles was so smart. It like Sandstrom: Welles may not
>turn out to be much of a player, but given the miserable state
>of the farm system, he was the best hope. At least it was worth
>a shot. If didn't pan out, then they were in big trouble anyway.
>
Wells waited FOREVER to help out Fla. Most fla fans HATE that trade
and will for a long time to come. Wells was no help here. And with
Sandstrom, the Pens had no choice.
>Moreover, there is a troubling trend in his recent trades like the
>Barnes for Welles deal. It's obvious that you need size to win in the
>NHL. But Patrick has been trading down, way down, in size. In
>Johnson, Hicks, Barnes and Johansson, he's virtually cornered the market
>on smallish, unskilled players. Maybe they should just change
>the team name to the Pittsburgh Pigmies. As side from the first line
>and Dz, they have no one to bump with teams like the Flyers.
>
Cornered the market? I believe the pens are one of the largest team in
the league...get yer facts right before you blabber out some
jibberish. Ohyea...Roche is HUGE!...is that ok?
>I saved the biggest indictment against Patrick until last - EJ as coach.
>This hardly needs amplification.
>
>Next year, without Lemieux and Francis a year older, it's hard to imagine
>the Pens being even a .500 team. And thanks to Patrick, they don't have
>a single blue chip prospect in the farm system.
>
>Look like the post-Lemieux era is going to be a bleak as the pre-Lemieux
>one. The difference this time the Pens are a small market team. It was
>fun whiler it lasted.
>
I guess you forgot to mention that Jagr will be a year older and
smarter..bettter. He will no doubt take over the Art Ross trophy for
the pens for a while. The Art Ross trophy might as well be call the
Penguins Trophy. Lalime has just started his career and is already
fantastic for a "rookie" by facing 30-50 shots a night(more than any
goalie in the leage) and still having a g/against avg of around 2.5.
The next time the pens will see the pre-lemieux era is after Jagr
retires/trades away. Until then, we can count on the pens staying
atop the east. I just wish the pens had an extreemely easy schedual
like the babied Avalanche do.
>Marc Green
Billy
>> How has he brought the Pens to this point? In 6 years of drafting,
>> he has managed to produce exactly LaLime, Tamer, Roche, Wilkinson
>> (indirectly for Straka) and Stoj (for Nasland). Hardly a decent player
>> in the lot. And it's not because they've drafted low. Guys like
>> Alfredsson and Daze were picked in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
>Remember how long it took Kevin Stevens to get rolling? A couple
>seasons. The new blood needs a little time. And the Pens got Wilkinson
>for Norm Maciver, which is a decent trade - bulk for power play. And you
>mentioned him later, but how about Joe Dziedzic?
But a BIG problem is..... The Pens do not have time. If the Pens
want to win a cup, this year is their last chance for awhile, assuming
Mario retires (which I still don't think will happen!!) Once he is
gone, lets face it, Jagr is good, but do you think he will carry the
team like mario?? and ron francis, the true leader of the team only
has a couple years left. If the Pens do not win this year, they are
in trouble for a while...and if the farm is as bad as the original
poster indicated, this team is in HUGE trouble... People may respond
with "yeah, but with Free Agency and all the $$ freed up by
Mario....." If the Pens are in the financial straits that have been
reported, they will not be able to sign any big free agents.
Billy
To reply, simply remove the "nospam" from my address....
Adam Music
Marc Green wrote:
I'm clipping a bit here.
> A while back, I wrote that Craig Patrick was incompentent. This
> illicited many posts about what genius the man is. By now, however,
> I assume that virtually everyone would agree that he has driven
> the team right into the ground.
At least he's not Mike Keenan!
> The current version of the Penguinns consists of 3 top level forwards,
> Lemieux, Francis, Jagr obviously) and one other skill player in Nedved.
> The other 8-10 forwards are a collection of fourth liners and castoffs
> from other teams. The defense has Kasper and Hatcher and with a bunch of
> guys cut (JJ, Leroux) or bench warmers (Wooley, Olausson) from other
> teams.
Daigneault was a Mike Keenan cut, and look who he got rid of. The Blues
trades were the worst of last season, decimating their farm system to
get older players who aren't with the team anymore. And remember ... the
defense used to consist of guys like Gordie Roberts, Paul Stanton, et
al, and they won a cup.
> How has he brought the Pens to this point? In 6 years of drafting,
> he has managed to produce exactly LaLime, Tamer, Roche, Wilkinson
> (indirectly for Straka) and Stoj (for Nasland). Hardly a decent player
> in the lot. And it's not because they've drafted low. Guys like
> Alfredsson and Daze were picked in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
Remember how long it took Kevin Stevens to get rolling? A couple
seasons. The new blood needs a little time. And the Pens got Wilkinson
for Norm Maciver, which is a decent trade - bulk for power play. And you
mentioned him later, but how about Joe Dziedzic?
> He followed this deal with a string of nothing trades and a few outright
> disasters, like giving away Scott Young, whom they could desperately
> use. Then there was his pure and simple bungling of losing Kevin Todd
> and Greg Brown through carelessness.
Scott Young wanted to leave Pittsburgh in the worst way, and back then
he wasn't producing the way he is now. Kevin Todd isn't tearing up the
league. And who is Greg Brown? I think you mean Doug Brown. His role on
the team has been filled by Barnes, and pretty nicely at that.
> Let's look at these trades. He got Kasper for Smolinski. Sure Kasper
> is a help, but Smolinski is scoring at a 40 goal clip. This could
> hardly be termed a "good deal." Then he got Hicks and Olausson for
> Miranov and Antoski. This only looks good because Miranov was so bad.
> Trading Sandstrom for Greg Johnson was horrible. Sure, Sandstrom
> wasn't producing, but he just might turn back to form. If he does
> they'll have a decent second line, if not, well, they're cooked anyway.
> With Johnson, a career fourth liner, there isn't even a dim chance of
> having a decent second line. It just makes no sense.
Again, Smolinski wanted a huge amount of money for his production. And
next season he's going to be free again, and looking for multi-millions.
The Sandstrom and Smolinski trade was based on the same premise -
getting talent that isn't going anywhere soon for a couple of guys who
will be looking for megabucks and who might not be with the Pens at all
next season. May as well get a couple young players to develop.
> I agree that Stu Barnes was a good pick up. But you have to wonder
> if trading Welles was so smart. It like Sandstrom: Welles may not
> turn out to be much of a player, but given the miserable state
> of the farm system, he was the best hope. At least it was worth
> a shot. If didn't pan out, then they were in big trouble anyway.
Wells is huge, but his skating isn't all that great. He's going to eat
up a considerable amount of ice time in order to learn how.
> Next year, without Lemieux and Francis a year older, it's hard to imagine
> the Pens being even a .500 team. And thanks to Patrick, they don't have
> a single blue chip prospect in the farm system.
Goaltender-in-training Craig Hiller, maybe?
That's my 2 cents.
ATM
Gary J Patalsky
I couldn't say it better myself. Don't forget that the Francis,Ulf
trade was more a product of Bob Johnson and Scotty Bowman than it was
Craig Patrick. After Badger died and Johnson left, Patrick has done
nothing.
Patrick's worst performance was between 92-93 and the next two seasons.
The Pens had the same problems for 3 consecutive years and Patrick did
nothing to correct it. He tried to fix the problem by changing spare
parts but it was clear to everyone that the Pens had major problems.
Daniel R Cormier
I know, I know. I heard it all before. You said the same things last
year. The only problem is that you could go through with just about any
team in the league and by not giving the GM credit for deals that make
sense, by ignoring impact on a team and only looking at production of
the traded players, and by denegrating the role players you could
equally say that any GM is horrible.
Excerpts from netnews.alt.sports.hockey.nhl.pit-penguins: 19-Feb-97
Patrick Incompentence Redux by Marc Gr...@yorku.ca
> A while back, I wrote that Craig Patrick was incompentent. This
> illicited many posts about what genius the man is. By now, however,
> I assume that virtually everyone would agree that he has driven
> the team right into the ground.
I'm not a person who thinks that CP is a genius, but he isn't
incompetant either. Why does everyone think that GM's, coaches, etc.
have to be one or the other? There is a lot of room in between.
> The current version of the Penguinns consists of 3 top level forwards,
> Lemieux, Francis, Jagr obviously) and one other skill player in Nedved.
> The other 8-10 forwards are a collection of fourth liners and castoffs
> from other teams. The defense has Kasper and Hatcher and with a bunch of
> guys cut (JJ, Leroux) or bench warmers (Wooley, Olausson) from other
> teams.
3 top forwards, another above average forward and two good defensemen is
still better than many teams out there, especially when you consider
that the 3 top forwards are three of the best players in the world. By
the way, Olausson was not a benchwarmer in Anaheim.
> For goalies he has Wregget, Mr. Mediocre and LaLime, Mr. 5 hole.
I agree that we are missing a little here, but the Pens thought that
they had one of the top 5 goaltenders in the league -- a guy by the name
of Tom who had two cups to his name. Can we blame CP for Barraso going
south (in more ways than one)? No, although we might be able to blame
him for the mistake of not recognizing that he should never have signed
him to his latest contract.
> How has he brought the Pens to this point? In 6 years of drafting,
> he has managed to produce exactly LaLime, Tamer, Roche, Wilkinson
> (indirectly for Straka) and Stoj (for Nasland). Hardly a decent player
> in the lot. And it's not because they've drafted low. Guys like
> Alfredsson and Daze were picked in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
How many teams are lucky enough to get a good player out of the 3rd or
4th rounds? Sure you can pull up a couple of names, but if _any_ teams
knew that Alfredsson and Daze would turn out to be the players they are
then they would have gone in the first or second rounds. Some times
luck plays a role.
Again, you might compare what the Pens got to what some other teams with
similar picks got. You will find that the Pens are doing okay.
And while he probably won't be more than a backup goaltender, Lalime
isn't half bad for a 6th round pick.
> Then there's his trades. He's been living on the Francis deal for
> years. After that, he's been a disaster. He gets a lot of
> credit from the ignorant for the the Wregget-Samualson-Tocchet deal.
> Well, the Pens didn't win the Stanley cup because of this deal. The
> only player who contributee significantly was Tocchet, but the
> Pens won 12 straight games, so Tocchet was hardly the difference
> between a cup and no cup. What about this deal today? Wregget is
> still a mediocre backup level goalies while Recchi and Coffey
> are still playing in all-star games.
He should get credit for the Tocchet deal. It certainly shored up the
team and allowed them to easily win the cup. How can you say that
Tocchet wasn't the difference between a cup and no cup? It's a team
effort out there and everyone counts. How do you know that Coffey
wouldn't have coughed up the puck at a crucial moment in the first
round? The next year the Pens were by far the best team in the league.
> He followed this deal with a string of nothing trades and a few outright
> disasters, like giving away Scott Young, whom they could desperately
> use. Then there was his pure and simple bungling of losing Kevin Todd
> and Greg Brown through carelessness.
I won't argue here.
> He's given a lot of credit for the trades he made to turn the team
> around. Hmm, it's beginning to look like ther turn around was more
> due to the schedule than to his trades. The Pens still look very
> bad against good teams.
>
> Let's look at these trades. He got Kasper for Smolinski. Sure Kasper
> is a help, but Smolinski is scoring at a 40 goal clip. This could
> hardly be termed a "good deal." Then he got Hicks and Olausson for
> Miranov and Antoski. This only looks good because Miranov was so bad.
> Trading Sandstrom for Greg Johnson was horrible. Sure, Sandstrom
> wasn't producing, but he just might turn back to form. If he does
> they'll have a decent second line, if not, well, they're cooked anyway.
> With Johnson, a career fourth liner, there isn't even a dim chance of
> having a decent second line. It just makes no sense.
Don't tell me you would rather have Smoke? You have got to be kidding
if you don't think that our team is better with Kasper than with
Smolinski. Smoke had no place on this team and to manage to get a high
quality defensemen (who also was a fan favorite on the Island) is
remarkable. The fact that CP managed to get anything for Mironov is
nothing short of a miracle. And Hicks has been much better than
Antoski. And while I'll agree that Sandstrom is a better player than
Johnson (except that Sandstrom has never produced squat in the
playoffs), we managed to get rid of a million dollars of salary without
really hurting our team.
> I agree that Stu Barnes was a good pick up. But you have to wonder
> if trading Welles was so smart. It like Sandstrom: Welles may not
> turn out to be much of a player, but given the miserable state
> of the farm system, he was the best hope. At least it was worth
> a shot. If didn't pan out, then they were in big trouble anyway.
You can't have it both ways. At least now we know we have a guy who
will go out and help our team. It also didn't hurt our defense to get
Wooley. He's not a great player, but he is better than anything we had.
> Moreover, there is a troubling trend in his recent trades like the
> Barnes for Welles deal. It's obvious that you need size to win in the
> NHL. But Patrick has been trading down, way down, in size. In
> Johnson, Hicks, Barnes and Johansson, he's virtually cornered the market
> on smallish, unskilled players. Maybe they should just change
> the team name to the Pittsburgh Pigmies. As side from the first line
> and Dz, they have no one to bump with teams like the Flyers.
Last year, we were the second biggest team in the league. The two
biggest teams in the league were both beaten by the much smaller
Panthers. Did you watch a single game early in the season? Our entire
team was _slow_. We are now faster, and what we've lost in size, we've
gained in spirit in guys like Hicks and Barnes.
> I saved the biggest indictment against Patrick until last - EJ as coach.
> This hardly needs amplification.
Well according to you we have a horrible team, so EJ must not be too bad
if he manages to get this horrible team to compete for first place and
to have made the Eastern Conference finals last year.
> Next year, without Lemieux and Francis a year older, it's hard to imagine
> the Pens being even a .500 team. And thanks to Patrick, they don't have
> a single blue chip prospect in the farm system.
We've got a couple of goalies leading their respective leagues. They
may not pan out, but could turn out to be the real thing. Morozov may
turn out to be okay as well. The Pens did fine without Mario a couple
of years back and they'll continue to do so.
> Look like the post-Lemieux era is going to be a bleak as the pre-Lemieux
> one. The difference this time the Pens are a small market team. It was
> fun whiler it lasted.
Whatever.
-DC
Michael J Gaal
Excerpts from netnews.alt.sports.hockey.nhl.pit-penguins: 19-Feb-97
Patrick Incompentence Redux by Marc Gr...@yorku.ca
> years. After that, he's been a disaster. He gets a lot of
> credit from the ignorant for the the Wregget-Samualson-Tocchet deal.
> Well, the Pens didn't win the Stanley cup because of this deal. The
> only player who contributee significantly was Tocchet, but the
> Pens won 12 straight games, so Tocchet was hardly the difference
> between a cup and no cup. What about this deal today? Wregget is
> still a mediocre backup level goalies while Recchi and Coffey
> are still playing in all-star games.
>
I'd rather have Nedved (Tocchet -> Robitaille -> Nedved)than Recchi, and
Coffey is just a lump of shit.
> He followed this deal with a string of nothing trades and a few outright
> disasters, like giving away Scott Young, whom they could desperately
> use. Then there was his pure and simple bungling of losing Kevin Todd
> and Greg Brown through carelessness.
>
> He's given a lot of credit for the trades he made to turn the team
> around. Hmm, it's beginning to look like ther turn around was more
> due to the schedule than to his trades. The Pens still look very
> bad against good teams.
>
> Let's look at these trades. He got Kasper for Smolinski. Sure Kasper
> is a help, but Smolinski is scoring at a 40 goal clip. This could
> hardly be termed a "good deal." Then he got Hicks and Olausson for
> Miranov and Antoski. This only looks good because Miranov was so bad.
> Trading Sandstrom for Greg Johnson was horrible. Sure, Sandstrom
> wasn't producing, but he just might turn back to form. If he does
> they'll have a decent second line, if not, well, they're cooked anyway.
> With Johnson, a career fourth liner, there isn't even a dim chance of
> having a decent second line. It just makes no sense.
>
We needed defense, and we didn't need Smolinski's shitty attitude. How
can you say it is not a good deal for the Pens. Just wait until the
playoffs when Kasper gets real tough. Getting a warm six pack would have
been incredible for Mironov and Antoski. Alex Hicks is a tough Troy
Loney/Phil Bourque type player that the Pens need. The Sandstrom trade
wasn't terrible. Johnson is much younger and cheaper than Tomas, plus
Tomas has done nothing in hte playoffs the past couple of years.
> I agree that Stu Barnes was a good pick up. But you have to wonder
> if trading Welles was so smart. It like Sandstrom: Welles may not
> turn out to be much of a player, but given the miserable state
> of the farm system, he was the best hope. At least it was worth
> a shot. If didn't pan out, then they were in big trouble anyway.
>
Wells would have never gotten a chance here, just like Scott Young
didn't. What about Park, Dzeidzic, and Roche, they all have just as much
potential as Wells. Not to mention, Florida threw in Woolley, who is
playing pretty well for us (especially on he PP), and is way better than
JJ, Muni, or Leroux.
> Moreover, there is a troubling trend in his recent trades like the
> Barnes for Welles deal. It's obvious that you need size to win in the
> NHL. But Patrick has been trading down, way down, in size. In
Even when Wells played last year, he never really threw the body. They
still have guys willing to do that with Roche, Dzeidzic, Hicks,
Stojanov, and Murray.
> Johnson, Hicks, Barnes and Johansson, he's virtually cornered the market
> on smallish, unskilled players. Maybe they should just change
> the team name to the Pittsburgh Pigmies. As side from the first line
> and Dz, they have no one to bump with teams like the Flyers.
>
> I saved the biggest indictment against Patrick until last - EJ as coach.
> This hardly needs amplification.
>
I do agree with this, but you have to wonder if he has a choice, if he
wants Mario to be here.
> Next year, without Lemieux and Francis a year older, it's hard to imagine
> the Pens being even a .500 team. And thanks to Patrick, they don't have
> a single blue chip prospect in the farm system.
>
Dzeidzic is going to be a good power forward in the NHL, IMO.
--Mike
Marc Green
I shouldn't be surprised by some of the moronic responses elicited
by my post. I'll just reiterate a few points:
Wilkinson cost them a first round pick - Straka, who begot McIvar who
begot Wilkinson. Now I ask you: is there any general manager in the
league who would give you a first round pick for Wilkinson? Of course,
not. (Ok, Ok, Cliff Fletcher probably would, but only he had a lottery
pick available to give away.) Sherry Ross describes him a one of the
softest players for his size in the league. (What? you don't have her
scounting report book on NHL players? Then you don't know much do you?)
It's really funny to be criticized by opposite arguments. One guy said to
have patience because Stevens too a long time to develop, while some else
said that rading Welles was a great idea.
Someone else criticized me for living in the past when I noted that
Coffey and Recchi as still playing in all star games. I thought this is
living in the present.
Perhaps the most pathetic and desperate reponse was to point to
Hillier as an example of their great farm system. The fact is that
Hillier had medicore scouting reports. He wan't even in the OHL all-
star game. The Pens simply picked him because the farm system was so bare
of goaltending bodies. Let's look at what they have: Morozov, who is
too slow and Bonin and Park who are too small (although they fit nicely
with Patrick's recent fondness for miniature players; they would be fit
nicely on one of those table top hockey games - just stick a rod up
their... well never mind) and Morozov who is too slow. Bergvist was rated a
C prospect before is surgery. Who knows what will happen now. Jan Hrdina?
How could you believe in a guy who doesn't even have enough vowels
in his name? None of these guys has received a top rating anywhere that
I've seen. Their highest rated prospect was - of course - Welles.
Of course, there's always Ian Moran to shore up the defense.
The issue is not that they failed to draft Alfredsson or Daze. Of course
the draft is a crap shoot. But in 6 years, Jesus, you'd have thought that
they could come up with a least a couple of guys who could play on the
first two lines or defense pair. And please, don't give me LaLime. The
jury is still way out on him. Way out. He's allowed a lot of soft goals
lately. That one by LeClair would have made Barasso proud.
I realize that my judgment is greatly impaired by
living in the hockey capital of the world where more is written and
broadcast about hockey in a week than in Pittsburgh in a year and
that being able to walk into any bookstore and select from shelves of
hockey books and magazines full of expert opinions and evaluations is a
major handicap compared to getting my info from Steigerwald. It is
probably a big mistake to let my opinion be affected by the judgments of
all those experts. They're probably wrong, of course. When they
uniformly agree that the Pens have no top prospects and rate the farm
system as D+, it's really just some anti-Patrick plot.
Marc Green
be...@mindspring.com
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:34:42 GMT, nex...@wf.net wrote:
>On 19 Feb 1997 20:51:15 GMT, gr...@yorku.ca (Marc Green) wrote:
>
>>A while back, I wrote that Craig Patrick was incompentent. This
>>illicited many posts about what genius the man is. By now, however,
>>I assume that virtually everyone would agree that he has driven
>>the team right into the ground.
You're kidding, right? That's a joke, right? The team is in last place, Patrick makes 3 trades in
a couple of days, and the Pens OBLITERATE the NHL and get into first place. Must be pretty high
ground he drove us into, eh? - robo
>
>Totaly wrong
>
>>The current version of the Penguinns consists of 3 top level forwards,
>>Lemieux, Francis, Jagr obviously) and one other skill player in Nedved.
>>The other 8-10 forwards are a collection of fourth liners and castoffs
>>from other teams. The defense has Kasper and Hatcher and with a bunch of
>>guys cut (JJ, Leroux) or bench warmers (Wooley, Olausson) from other
>>teams.
Funny, the Florida Panthers, you know, that team that the Pens got beat by last year, the one that
made it to the Stanley Cup finals, seem to think that Stu Barnes wasn't a castoff/bench warmer.
Hmmm, come to think of it, we got a damn good power play quarterback and the defensive center that
we needed, all for the price of a guy who couldn't even be one of those 8-10 4th liners. - robo
>Most teams would be lucky to have only 8-10 fourth liners and
>castoffs. Show me another team that has 2 extreemely high calibure
>players like Mario and Jaromir...a greatly underrated setup man in
>Francis...and another potential 100 point scorer in Nedved. Also, I
>doubt that there are more than 2 teams that would bench Wooley or
>Olausson. They may not be the best, but then again, no team has 6
>great defensmen. No team is perfect.
>
>>For goalies he has Wregget, Mr. Mediocre and LaLime, Mr. 5 hole.
Mr. Rookie consecutive-games-won??? - robo
>Mr 5 hole?...don't you mean Mr Roy Jr?
>
>>How has he brought the Pens to this point? In 6 years of drafting,
>>he has managed to produce exactly LaLime, Tamer, Roche, Wilkinson
>>(indirectly for Straka) and Stoj (for Nasland). Hardly a decent player
>>in the lot. And it's not because they've drafted low. Guys like
>>Alfredsson and Daze were picked in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
Lalime set the record for consecutive wins at the start of a career, and Roche led all rookies lsat
year in playoff scoring. Both are ridiculously young, barely old enough to purchase alcohol, and
they have years to show their worth. Wilkinson was a good blueliner who added a bit of toughness
and experience to a defense lacking in both, whereas Straka was a kid who couldn't be bothered, just
couldn't e bothered. How is he doing this year in Florida? How is Naslund doing in Vancouver? I'll
tell you how they're doing, THEY SUCK! As for Stojanov, he's been injured for awhile. He also was
one of the only players who were a (+) early in the season when the Pens STUNK! - robo
>Lalaime(record breaker)...rest so-so. Everyone knows it is MOSTLY
>luck that gets a team an awesom rookie like like a Jagr or Selanne.
>
>>Then there's his trades. He's been living on the Francis deal for
>>years. After that, he's been a disaster. He gets a lot of
>>credit from the ignorant for the the Wregget-Samualson-Tocchet deal.
The one that brought a guy who got 48 goals for the Pens? The one that brought the Pens their most
consistent playoff goaltender? The one that brought the Pens their steadiest blueliner in years?
Boy that deal really stunk for us. - robo
>>Well, the Pens didn't win the Stanley cup because of this deal.
They won the president's trophy, and were upset by a team, mostly because of the tenacious play of a
guy named KASPARAITIS! - robo
>>The only player who contributee significantly was Tocchet, but the
>>Pens won 12 straight games, so Tocchet was hardly the difference
>>between a cup and no cup. What about this deal today? Wregget is
>>still a mediocre backup level goalies while Recchi and Coffey
>>are still playing in all-star games.
>>
>
>Stop living in the past
>
>>He followed this deal with a string of nothing trades and a few outright
>>disasters, like giving away Scott Young, whom they could desperately
>>use. Then there was his pure and simple bungling of losing Kevin Todd
>>and Greg Brown through carelessness.
We lost Kevin Todd due to eddie Johnson's incompetance. EJ said Todd had no place on the team.
Johnson wanted him gone, and he's the coach. - robo
>Past again
>
>>He's given a lot of credit for the trades he made to turn the team
>>around. Hmm, it's beginning to look like ther turn around was more
>>due to the schedule than to his trades. The Pens still look very
>>bad against good teams.
>>
>>Let's look at these trades. He got Kasper for Smolinski. Sure Kasper
>>is a help, but Smolinski is scoring at a 40 goal clip.
Just what we need, another 40-goal scorer. I think the Pens are in greater need of a defenseman
than a winger. - robo
>>This could hardly be termed a "good deal." Then he got Hicks and Olausson for
>>Miranov and Antoski. This only looks good because Miranov was so bad.
Yeah, and antoski was an immobile oaf. - robo
>>Trading Sandstrom for Greg Johnson was horrible. Sure, Sandstrom
>>wasn't producing, but he just might turn back to form.
Any goal scorer who can't score on a line with Mario is worthless to the Pens. - robo
>>If he does they'll have a decent second line, if not, well, they're cooked anyway.
>>With Johnson, a career fourth liner, there isn't even a dim chance of
>>having a decent second line. It just makes no sense.
Johnson, 100's of K's cheaper, faster, and better defensively, is going to do well with the Pens.
His attention to his own zone is exactly what the Pens need. His speed makes him perfect for the
shorthanded situation, and the salary dump gives the team a chance to get some big defenseman and
sign players who need to be signed. Besides, the Pens weren't going to give Sandstrom the money he
wanted this year, and then what do we get for him? Nothing. - robo
>If the Pens needed more scoring, then they would not have drafted a
>goalie. The Pens have scoring comming out their WAZOO! Kasper is a
>hard hitter and can take people out of the play, somthing that
>Smolinsky couldnt offer(obviously) Also, If you put Smoke on the top
>lines of any team, he would score some goals, but a low skilled
>player like that has no place on the top lines of the elite pens
>
>>I agree that Stu Barnes was a good pick up. But you have to wonder
>>if trading Welles was so smart. It like Sandstrom: Welles may not
>>turn out to be much of a player, but given the miserable state
>>of the farm system, he was the best hope. At least it was worth
>>a shot. If didn't pan out, then they were in big trouble anyway.
>>
>
>Wells waited FOREVER to help out Fla. Most fla fans HATE that trade
>and will for a long time to come. Wells was no help here. And with
>Sandstrom, the Pens had no choice.
>
>>Moreover, there is a troubling trend in his recent trades like the
>>Barnes for Welles deal. It's obvious that you need size to win in the
>>NHL. But Patrick has been trading down, way down, in size. In
>>Johnson, Hicks, Barnes and Johansson, he's virtually cornered the market
>>on smallish, unskilled players. Maybe they should just change
>>the team name to the Pittsburgh Pigmies. As side from the first line
>>and Dz, they have no one to bump with teams like the Flyers.
>>
>
>Cornered the market? I believe the pens are one of the largest team in
>the league...get yer facts right before you blabber out some
>jibberish. Ohyea...Roche is HUGE!...is that ok?
How about Stojanov and Tamer? - robo
>>I saved the biggest indictment against Patrick until last - EJ as coach.
>>This hardly needs amplification.
Eddie Johnson is coach, not because of Patrick, but because of the Pens "owner", Mario Lemieux.
Mario likes him, so he stays. - robo
>>Next year, without Lemieux and Francis a year older, it's hard to imagine
>>the Pens being even a .500 team. And thanks to Patrick, they don't have
>>a single blue chip prospect in the farm system.
>>
>>Look like the post-Lemieux era is going to be a bleak as the pre-Lemieux
>>one. The difference this time the Pens are a small market team. It was
>>fun whiler it lasted.
>>
>
>I guess you forgot to mention that Jagr will be a year older and
>smarter..bettter. He will no doubt take over the Art Ross trophy for
>the pens for a while. The Art Ross trophy might as well be call the
>Penguins Trophy. Lalime has just started his career and is already
>fantastic for a "rookie" by facing 30-50 shots a night(more than any
>goalie in the leage) and still having a g/against avg of around 2.5.
>The next time the pens will see the pre-lemieux era is after Jagr
>retires/trades away. Until then, we can count on the pens staying
>atop the east. I just wish the pens had an extreemely easy schedual
>like the babied Avalanche do.
Jagr, Nedved and Barnes. Johnson, Johannson and Dziedzic. Stojanov, Murray and Roche, a couple of
bangers, Roche led rookie scorers in the playoffs last year, Kaspar, Tamer and Wooley. Seems like
we have a few more talented youngsters than anyone likes to admit. oh, yeah. That Lalime
character. - robo
>>Marc Green
>
be...@mindspring.com
On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:02:09 -0500, Michael J Gaal <fla...@CMU.EDU> wrote:
>Excerpts from netnews.alt.sports.hockey.nhl.pit-penguins: 19-Feb-97
>Patrick Incompentence Redux by Marc Gr...@yorku.ca
>> Then there's his trades. He's been living on the Francis deal for
>> years. After that, he's been a disaster. He gets a lot of
>> credit from the ignorant for the the Wregget-Samualson-Tocchet deal.
>> Well, the Pens didn't win the Stanley cup because of this deal.
No, they just won the President's trophy, then were upset in the playoffs, primarily due to the play
of a guy named KASPARAITIS, you know, he wsa part of one of those "driven into the ground" trades
. - robo
>The only player who contributee significantly was Tocchet, but the
>> Pens won 12 straight games, so Tocchet was hardly the difference
>> between a cup and no cup. What about this deal today? Wregget is
>> still a mediocre backup level goalies
wregget is the most consistent goaltender the Pens have had, and despite Kjell's lack of mobility,
his size and steady play at the blueline and in front of the crease are SORELY missed. - robo
>>while Recchi and Coffey are still playing in all-star games.
>>
Nedved is fantastic. he's still gonna have 40 goals this season with NOBODY on his line, as the big
3 have been together so much of the season. - robo
>I'd rather have Nedved (Tocchet -> Robitaille -> Nedved)than Recchi, and
>Coffey is just a lump of shit.
>
>
>> He followed this deal with a string of nothing trades and a few outright
>> disasters, like giving away Scott Young, whom they could desperately
>> use. Then there was his pure and simple bungling of losing Kevin Todd
>> and Greg Brown through carelessness.
We lost Kevin Todd because of EJ and his moron bumbling mind. EJ didn't like todd for some reason.
He's gone now, and we have Stu Barnes doing what Todd was brought in for, so Patrick has made up for
the imbecile/coach. - rpbp
>> He's given a lot of credit for the trades he made to turn the team
>> around. Hmm, it's beginning to look like ther turn around was more
>> due to the schedule than to his trades. The Pens still look very
>> bad against good teams.
>>
>> Let's look at these trades. He got Kasper for Smolinski. Sure Kasper
>> is a help, but Smolinski is scoring at a 40 goal clip.
So in other words, the Pens are in need of a scorer, not a hard hitting tough defenseman? - robo
>>This could hardly be termed a "good deal." Then he got Hicks and Olausson for
>> Miranov and Antoski. This only looks good because Miranov was so bad.
and Antoski was an oaf. - robo
>> Trading Sandstrom for Greg Johnson was horrible.
This was the closest thing to a bad trade. Johnson, however, works well with Mario, and he is a
great defensive forward with a lot of speed. That gives us 3 good forwards to put out on the
penalty kill, along with barnes and Francis. With Johnson's speed, he'll be the best of the
above-mentioned bunch. Besides, we HAD to trade Sandstrom. His scoring slump was so bad that he
couldn't score on a line with Mario fer crissakes!! The only thing is we should've tried to get
big, bad Luke Richardson, he of the unrestricted free agent type, and sign him to a nice contract
for a couple of years. He's a big, hard hitting mean sonofabitch who would really work well on a
line with either wooley or Olausson. that way, we could have 3 defensive pairings, each with a good
puckhandler (Hatcher, Ollausson, and Wooley) and a hitter(Luke, Tamer, and Kaspar) - robo
>>Sure, Sandstrom wasn't producing, but he just might turn back to form. If he does
>> they'll have a decent second line, if not, well, they're cooked anyway.
>> With Johnson, a career fourth liner, there isn't even a dim chance of
>> having a decent second line. It just makes no sense.
He's on the first line now. - robo
>
>We needed defense, and we didn't need Smolinski's shitty attitude. How
>can you say it is not a good deal for the Pens. Just wait until the
>playoffs when Kasper gets real tough. Getting a warm six pack would have
>been incredible for Mironov and Antoski. Alex Hicks is a tough Troy
>Loney/Phil Bourque type player that the Pens need. The Sandstrom trade
>wasn't terrible. Johnson is much younger and cheaper than Tomas, plus
>Tomas has done nothing in hte playoffs the past couple of years.
>
>> I agree that Stu Barnes was a good pick up. But you have to wonder
>> if trading Welles was so smart. It like Sandstrom: Welles may not
>> turn out to be much of a player, but given the miserable state
>> of the farm system, he was the best hope. At least it was worth
>> a shot. If didn't pan out, then they were in big trouble anyway.
>>
>
>Wells would have never gotten a chance here, just like Scott Young
>didn't. What about Park, Dzeidzic, and Roche, they all have just as much
>potential as Wells. Not to mention, Florida threw in Woolley, who is
>playing pretty well for us (especially on he PP), and is way better than
>JJ, Muni, or Leroux.
Wells was a Francois Leroux playing a different position, except that Wells couldn't hit or fight
anywhere near as well as Frankie. - robo
>> Moreover, there is a troubling trend in his recent trades like the
>> Barnes for Welles deal. It's obvious that you need size to win in the
>> NHL. But Patrick has been trading down, way down, in size. In
>
>Even when Wells played last year, he never really threw the body. They
>still have guys willing to do that with Roche, Dzeidzic, Hicks,
>Stojanov, and Murray.
>
>> Johnson, Hicks, Barnes and Johansson, he's virtually cornered the market
>> on smallish, unskilled players. Maybe they should just change
>> the team name to the Pittsburgh Pigmies. As side from the first line
>> and Dz, they have no one to bump with teams like the Flyers.
>>
>> I saved the biggest indictment against Patrick until last - EJ as coach.
>> This hardly needs amplification.
>>
>
>I do agree with this, but you have to wonder if he has a choice, if he
>wants Mario to be here.
Exactly, Mario runs the team as long as EJ is the coach, and that's what keeps Mario out of
retirement. Why the hell do you think they signed EJ to a multi-year deal? To convince Mario to
stay active. - robo
>> Next year, without Lemieux and Francis a year older, it's hard to imagine
>> the Pens being even a .500 team. And thanks to Patrick, they don't have
>> a single blue chip prospect in the farm system.
>>
>
>Dzeidzic is going to be a good power forward in the NHL, IMO.
Watch Joey DZ play sometime. The guy is 230 pounds, invincible along the boards, and has the best
set of wheels for a guy that size you'll see. He is young, he is aggressive, he plays HARD AS HELL,
and he hustles. Nobody on the team is as good along the boards as he is. He is going to be
fantastic. I only wish Moron EJ would put DZ on the top line, and allow him to develop into a good
power forward like Kevin Stevens did. the only 2 differences between DZ and Stevens are that DZ is
bigger and hits harder, and DZ is much better on his skates. Now if only we could see what he could
dowith his hands in fron tof the net! - robo
>
>
>--Mike
be...@mindspring.com
On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 13:39:22 -0500, Daniel R Cormier <dc...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>I know, I know. I heard it all before. You said the same things last
>year. The only problem is that you could go through with just about any
>team in the league and by not giving the GM credit for deals that make
>sense, by ignoring impact on a team and only looking at production of
>the traded players, and by denegrating the role players you could
>equally say that any GM is horrible.
>
>Excerpts from netnews.alt.sports.hockey.nhl.pit-penguins: 19-Feb-97
>Patrick Incompentence Redux by Marc Gr...@yorku.ca
>> A while back, I wrote that Craig Patrick was incompentent. This
>> illicited many posts about what genius the man is. By now, however,
>> I assume that virtually everyone would agree that he has driven
>> the team right into the ground.
>
>I'm not a person who thinks that CP is a genius, but he isn't
>incompetant either. Why does everyone think that GM's, coaches, etc.
>have to be one or the other? There is a lot of room in between.
>
>> The current version of the Penguinns consists of 3 top level forwards,
>> Lemieux, Francis, Jagr obviously) and one other skill player in Nedved.
>> The other 8-10 forwards are a collection of fourth liners and castoffs
>> from other teams. The defense has Kasper and Hatcher and with a bunch of
>> guys cut (JJ, Leroux) or bench warmers (Wooley, Olausson) from other
>> teams.
Kaspar and Hatcher got here because of CP, and Wooley and Olausson do rather well behind the Big 3.
- robo
>3 top forwards, another above average forward and two good defensemen is
>still better than many teams out there, especially when you consider
>that the 3 top forwards are three of the best players in the world. By
>the way, Olausson was not a benchwarmer in Anaheim.
>
>> For goalies he has Wregget, Mr. Mediocre and LaLime, Mr. 5 hole.
>
>I agree that we are missing a little here, but the Pens thought that
>they had one of the top 5 goaltenders in the league -- a guy by the name
>of Tom who had two cups to his name. Can we blame CP for Barraso going
>south (in more ways than one)? No, although we might be able to blame
>him for the mistake of not recognizing that he should never have signed
>him to his latest contract.
Who could tell that Barasso would give up playing and become a wallowing mound of self-pity? - robo
>> How has he brought the Pens to this point? In 6 years of drafting,
>> he has managed to produce exactly LaLime, Tamer, Roche, Wilkinson
>> (indirectly for Straka) and Stoj (for Nasland). Hardly a decent player
>> in the lot. And it's not because they've drafted low. Guys like
>> Alfredsson and Daze were picked in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
Daze is proving to be a bust. Lalime did rather well in his NHL debut, Tamer is one of our better
hitters and more solid defenseman, and Wilkinson gives us experience and aggressiveness on a
blueline sorely lacking in both. Roche led all rookies in playoff scoring last year, and the only
reason he won't net 20 this year is because the jackass moron dickhead, er. . . coach won't give
the kid any ice. He's what, 21? 22? Give him time. His size and aggressiveness are easy to see,
but he has soft hands, he shows that when jackass moron dickhead, er . . . coach, gives him time on
the PP. - robo
Again, EJ said he didn't want Todd. I get the Pens paper, and that is an indirect quote. he said
something about Todd "not doing what EJ expected" or some kind of shit like that. I won't get into
it much, as I addressed this elsewhere, but it wasn't CP, it was jackass moron, etc. coach who was
responsible fo rthis one. CP fixed it, though. He got Stu Barnes in the steal of the year, and now
Barnes occupies the slot that Todd would've occupied (3rd line center) - robo
Anna M Houck
I've read with interest some of your assessments regarding Patrick
and the team in general. I'm not so sure it was necessary, though,
to have put so much thought into it. We've all been watching this
team long enough to know that it has two basic weaknesses -
1) unwillingness to play team defense
2) sporadic willingness to play as a team rather than as
individuals
I have no doubt that the Pens are still one of the most talented and
most potent teams in the league. However, their penchant for wanting
to score goals and leaving goal prevention almost solely to the
goaltender makes them less effective than they really are, as does
their occasional tendency to focus on individual talent rather than
focusing on the team or units.
I'll probably never be able to decide for myself if Craig Patrick is
the root of all of this or not. If EJ can't shake these guys up then
maybe where Patrick's fault really lies is in not being able to get
his coach to do his job properly or in having this particular coach
to begin with. I just don't know.
But from what I've read it seems that so many of you are willing
to put the blame on either Patrick, EJ, or both. What about these
million-dollar players? What about comments from players in the
newspaper like 'We know Lalime can stop the puck; now we're going
to concentrate on offense again' and 'you can't expect us to be up
for every game every night' (and yet they expect people to PAY for
their tickets every game, every night).
While it's true that what is feared most about the Pens is their
offense, it's probably equally true that what is found most
laughable about them is their defense. They need balance. And
they're capable of it; they just don't do it.
If the Pens play as a team and play team defense they can beat
anybody, any time. But, unfortunately, that's a mighty big if.
Anna
Daniel R Cormier
Excerpts from netnews.alt.sports.hockey.nhl.pit-penguins: 21-Feb-97 Re:
Patrick Incompentence R.. by Marc Gr...@yorku.ca
> by my post. I'll just reiterate a few points:
Marc, the fact is that some of the points made in response to your post
are reasonable (some others, I'll admit were not - but none were
"moronic"). Both you and other people have made some good points.
You are correct that we've done poorly in the draft and that not all of
CP's trades have been that good, but you discredit yourself by
stretching so far as to indicate that we should have kept Smolinski
rather than getting Kasper (I'll use this as the most blatant example,
but I feel that a couple of others would qualify).
If you were to give CP credit for a couple of his good moves (such as
the one just mentioned) then we might be able to take you a little more
seriously as to your other comments. As is, it just sounds like you are
a Craig Patrick hater who will discredit him in all cases whether he
deserves it or not.
If you wish to analyze the Pens' GM, do so. If you wish to be taken
seriously by those on this fan board, avoid letting your personal bias
get in the way of your hockey knowledge. Many of us on this board know
a lot about hockey and have followed the Pens for years and years. We
may not agree with you on every point, but that does not mean that our
opinions are moronic.
Sincerely,
-DC
Sean P Hart
Excerpts from netnews.alt.sports.hockey.nhl.pit-penguins: 21-Feb-97 Re:
Patrick Incompentence R.. by Marc Gr...@yorku.ca
> begot Wilkinson. Now I ask you: is there any general manager in the
> league who would give you a first round pick for Wilkinson? Of course,
> not.
This is kind of a lame argument. There is a huge difference in the
value of a first round pick from the past and a future first round pick.
You mean to tell me that no matter how worthless a first round pick is
in the future, he is not worth a player like Wilkinson?
>Someone else criticized me for living in the past when I noted that
>Coffey and Recchi as still playing in all star games. I thought this is
>living in the present.
This is the same all-star game that Ron Francis was ignored by.
Sean P Hart
Excerpts from netnews.alt.sports.hockey.nhl.pit-penguins: 22-Feb-97 Re:
Patrick Incompentence R.. by be...@mindspring.com
beat by las
> t year, the one that
> made it to the Stanley Cup finals, seem to think that Stu Barnes
wasn't a cast
> off/bench warmer.
> Hmmm, come to think of it, we got a damn good power play quarterback
and the d
> efensive center that
> we needed, all for the price of a guy who couldn't even be one of
those 8-10 4
> th liners. - robo
To further back this argument, it's not like the Pens are trading away
for ancient players. Sure, they don't have much of a farm system.
However, every trade CP has made this season has brought some youth into
this team (perhaps making amends for his geriatric fetish in the
off-season).
Pete Treichler
> Sherry Ross describes him a one of the softest players for his size in
> the league. (What? you don't have her scounting report book on NHL
> players? Then you don't know much do you?)
Oh, that must be it- now my life can be complete! How can I ever thank
you?
> Jan Hrdina? How could you believe in a guy who doesn't even have
> enough vowels in his name?
Another strong argument... I wonder, was that a part of Sherry Ross's
scouting report on Jan Hrdina or did you make that up all by your little
old pathetic lonesome? Now that I think of it, i'm surprised that you
didn't make fun of his first name as well- 'How could you believe in a
guy who has a girly first name?' derp- you are a fool.
> I realize that my judgment is greatly impaired by living in the hockey
> capital of the world where more is written and broadcast about hockey
> in a week than in Pittsburgh in a year and that being able to walk
> into any bookstore and select from shelves of hockey books and
> magazines full of expert opinions and evaluations is a major handicap
> compared to getting my info from Steigerwald. It is probably a big
> mistake to let my opinion be affected by the judgments of all those
> experts. They're probably wrong, of course. When they uniformly agree
> that the Pens have no top prospects and rate the farm system as D+,
> it's really just some anti-Patrick plot.
You really think you're the cat's meow, eh? If you're so gosh derned
special, then why don't you write your own flappin' scouting report to
add to the 'shelves of hockey books and magazines full of expert
opinions and evaluations?' Ooops, my bad- your opinions and
evaluations are most definitely not expert. Hell, they barely rank as
moronic.
I must admit, I'm getting quite tired of people insisting that they know
more about hockey because of where they live. 'I grew up in XXX where
we eat, sleep, and drink hockey, 24-7, therefor I'm right and you're
wrong.' This is the most ridiculous argument I have heard. Well, okay,
Mr. Hockey's (note the sarcasm) comment about Jan Hrdina not having
enough vowels in his name is probably THE most ridiculous- especially
from someone who has been so enlighetened by the city he lives in.
Mr. Hockey (sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm)- if you want people to read your
'assessment' of the Penguins situation and actually consider your
arguments, you might want to try leaving out all the hoi-paloi, idiotic,
racist comments. These comments do nothing but infuriate many of the
people reading it. If you want to engage people in a legitimate
debate, then get down off your self-erected throne and leave out all
the irrelevant bullshit. You are not 'all that' and we all know it.
-p
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Treichler APEX Software Corporation
Senior Support Technician (412) 681-4343
pe...@apexsc.com http://www.apexsc.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Green
Anna M Houck (am...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
:
: I've read with interest some of your assessments regarding Patrick
: and the team in general. I'm not so sure it was necessary, though,
: to have put so much thought into it. We've all been watching this
: team long enough to know that it has two basic weaknesses -
:
: 1) unwillingness to play team defense
:
: 2) sporadic willingness to play as a team rather than as
: individuals
:
: I have no doubt that the Pens are still one of the most talented and
: most potent teams in the league.
This perhaps the key point. The problem is not lack of effort or ego
centric players, but lack of talent. Penguin fans constantly delude
themselves about the talent level on the team. They've got 3 star
players amd Nedved. They don't have a top defenseman. Hatcher has
his moments but he's no star Kasper, for all his notariety, is not
a top line defenseman. And of course, the goaltending is mediocre
to weak.
Jacque Lemaire was right when asked how he would coach the Pens -
let the big line do what they want and then have the rest of the team
play a close checking game. The problem is that the rest of the team
stinks. They are in this fix because Patrick has been unable to develop
a single impact player in 6 years. His mediocre trading record has not
been much of a help, either.
: However, their penchant for wanting
: to score goals and leaving goal prevention almost solely to the
: goaltender makes them less effective than they really are, as does
: their occasional tendency to focus on individual talent rather than
: focusing on the team or u
:
You can't seriously believe that anybody, regardless of system,
could win with guys like Johnson, Hicks, Valk, Murray, Wilkinson,
Tamer, Mullen, etc. playing regularly. And then there's Wregget.
Literally half the team consists of castoffs and fourth liners that Patrick
has picked up in his usual bargain basement view of player development.
And most of these guys aren't even from good teams! His picks up dreck from
the dregs!
And you say the problem isn't lack of talent? Nonsense.
:
: Anna
:
Marc Green
Pete Treichler (pe...@apexsc.com) wrote:
: > Sherry Ross describes him a one of the softest players for his size in
: > players? Then you don't know much do you?)
:
: Oh, that must be it- now my life can be complete! How can I ever thank
: you?
You're welcome. Although you'll probably have problems with all those
2 syllable words she uses.
:
: > Jan Hrdina? How could you believe in a guy who doesn't even have
: > enough vowels in his name?
:
: Another strong argument... I wonder, was that a part of Sherry Ross's
: scouting report on Jan Hrdina or did you make that up all by your little
: old pathetic lonesome? Now that I think of it, i'm surprised that you
: didn't make fun of his first name as well- 'How could you believe in a
: guy who has a girly first name?' derp- you are a fool.
Sherry Ross is a women. Writes for the the NY Post. Looks like you are the
fool. But then you've already demonstrated that.
:
: > I realize that my judgment is greatly impaired by living in the hockey
: > capital of the world where more is written and broadcast about hockey
: > in a week than in Pittsburgh in a year and that being able to walk
: > into any bookstore and select from shelves of hockey books and
: > magazines full of expert opinions and evaluations is a major handicap
: > compared to getting my info from Steigerwald. It is probably a big
: > mistake to let my opinion be affected by the judgments of all those
: > experts. They're probably wrong, of course. When they uniformly agree
: > that the Pens have no top prospects and rate the farm system as D+,
: > it's really just some anti-Patrick plot.
:
: You really think you're the cat's meow, eh? If you're so gosh derned
: special, then why don't you write your own flappin' scouting report to
: add to the 'shelves of hockey books and magazines full of expert
: opinions and evaluations?' Ooops, my bad- your opinions and
: evaluations are most definitely not expert. Hell, they barely rank as
: moronic.
:
: I must admit, I'm getting quite tired of people insisting that they know
: more about hockey because of where they live. 'I grew up in XXX where
: we eat, sleep, and drink hockey, 24-7, therefor I'm right and you're
Ah, actually I grew up in Pittsburgh.
: wrong.' This is the most ridiculous argument I have heard. Well, okay,
: Mr. Hockey's (note the sarcasm) comment about Jan Hrdina not having
: enough vowels in his name is probably THE most ridiculous- especially
: from someone who has been so enlighetened by the city he lives in.
Don't blame if the guy is cheap with initials. He probaly wears
Baur skates and uses a CM stick.
: Mr. Hockey (sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm)- if you want people to read your
: 'assessment' of the Penguins situation and actually consider your
: arguments, you might want to try leaving out all the hoi-paloi, idiotic,
: racist comments.
Racist? You seem dumb enough to be from another species!
:These comments do nothing but infuriate many of the
: people reading it. If you want to engage people in a legitimate
: debate, then get down off your self-erected throne and leave out all
: the irrelevant bullshit. You are not 'all that' and we all know it.
I would, but it's so much fun to see how easy it is to drive the
idiots of the word into ranting, high blood pressure and hopefully
a coronary. You'll have some distance to go though, to prove as
much fun a Derek.
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: Pete Treichler, Professional Moron APEX Software Corporation
: Senior Stupidity Technician (412) 681-4343
: pe...@apexsc.com http://www.apexsc.com
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Green