>are the memories real??
periwinkle
Sam here. ranting saved for another day. not for the benefit of the
person who wrote this post, as i doubt he is interested in hearing
another point of view, but for the benefit of anyone who, like some in
here, was thrown by the FMS posting, i would like to respond briefly.
Trauma has been found to casue repressed memories in situations where the
trauma was fully documented and observed by others. For example, there are
many well-documented cases of post-traumatic stress syndrome, including
repressed memories, in Vietnam veterans, refugees from war-ravaged areas,
and survivors of natural disasters. Post-traumatic stress syndrome was in
fact first discovered in Vietnam veterans who had no memories of traumatic
situations that definitely occurred (no one bothers to question a veteran
who has lost his legs as to whether he is really certain that a land mine
exploded), but who later recovered those memories through flashbacks,
nightmares, etc. The symptom lists derided by the FMS proponents were
compiled from symptoms shown by Vietnam veterans who suffered from
Post-Traumatic Stress. Symptoms particular to survivors of childhood
abuse have been added to these lists when they are published in sexual
abuse recovery fora.
There are documented cases of recovery of repressed memories from long
before they were understood. Older reports of psychoanalytic practice
includde reports of women experiencing the painful return of memories of
sexual abuse by their fathers, but because this was not considered to be
possible, they were told that they were fantasizing, which of course did
nothing to lessen their pain. It was not until men who had been to war
began showing the same symptoms, that women who had grown up in abusive
households, their own private war zone, were taken seriously.
It is the FMS people who do not have the remotest shred of scientific
evidence on their side. If anyone is interested in reading further
material on this subject, the fourth and most recent edition of *The
Courage to Heal* includes a lengthy section called "Honoring the Truth,"
which supplies ample evidence, scientific and legal, of the existence of
post-traumatic stress and repressed memories.
This discussion is out of place here. It belongs on another newsgroup,
not sure which. I felt, however, that it was important, since the FMS
post had been made, to post a response, in case anyone had been upset or
shaken by it.
Take care all. Strength & courage be with you.
Sam
of the Garden
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periwinkle
oh, and by the way, the FMS poster asserted that there is some cult-like
"repressed memory community" that encourages people to cut ties with
friends & family (encouraging the cutting of ties with friends & family is
a characteristic of a cult). i would just like to point out that while
isolation *can* be part of a harmful program of brainwashing & cutting a
person off from their support system, it can also be part of a rescue of a
person who is surrounded by negative influences. it seems reasonable to
me to encourage people in AA to stop hanging out with alcoholics; to
encourage kids in juvenile detention centers to stay away from their old
gang members, and to encourage anyone who has been harmed by another
person to stay away from that person. i'm not running around looking for
the guys who mugged me three weeks ago. and i don't see that it is
unnatural to cut one's ties with those who have been harmful, even if and
especially if they are genetically related.
that's all.
Sam
salivakittens
needed that.
Juniper
: De-lurking to say Thanks for your response to the FMS post -- I rather
: needed that.
Salivakittens? Hee hee!
(Juniper has a mental image of a big momma cat washing her little kittens with
a big rough wet tongue... kittens with their eyes not yet open falling around
as they get clean, then, drawn by smell, smurgling into momma's furry belly
taps for a snack. Nice image!)
Welcome to the realm of the delurked!
Juniper
SteveR0032
I most definitely did want to hear from you and hear what you had to say.
I want to understand. I also want to very clearly convey a message of
caution, not to stand on a soap box and tell everyone they are wrong.
I am not trying to tell you are wrong or to undermine the value of trying
to rebuild history through talk therapy. Nor am I an FMS’er trying to
wage a political battle. I am trying to honestly and as sensitively as
possible deal with an issue that needs more attention and challenge than
it is getting. That issue has to do with the validity of memories, and
the level of due diligence that people who have come to the conclusion
that they were victims of SA should be held accountable before acting upon
their beliefs in a way that affects others. There is no more appropriate
forum than ASAR for this discussion, as there almost 2000 letters by
people that are in some way dealing with this issue. I am not going away.
First, I am not trying to say that there is no such thing as a repressed
memory. I am trying to point out that this is a VERY CONTROVERSIAL area
within the psychology and medical community. There are very
distinguished and accomplished people that suggest the memory repression
is very real, should be explored and contains very vital psychological
information. There are very distinguished and accomplished people that
believe it is utter hogwash. There is also a middle ground that says
memories and repressed memories have vital psychological information that
has very valuable information that is highly metaphoric..it should rarely
be taken at face value. IMHO based upon my personal theaputic
experiences, I BELIEVE the latter. But, it is pretty easy to see, just
from all of the press this area has received, this is highly controversial
and as such very dangerous.
My big argument on the danger of repressed memory therapy has to do with
the fact that the scientific community is all over the map and the
existance of a margin of error that I find incredibly...I have heard
numbers quoted for 7% by Ellen Bass to as high as 100%....but I uniformly
hear about a margin of error.. 7% isn’t much better odds than Russian
Roulette...then there is my airline analogy...7% would be 50 crashes a day
at O’Hare.....Why aren’t we outraged by that.
This is too a high margin of error is much too high for people to declare
themselves victims of sexual abuse, cut off families, file lawsuits, put
their spouse’s and children through incredible stress and spend thousands
on therapy and group therapy WITHOUT PROPER DUE DILIGENCE which should
include at a minimum a opinion from another mental health professional
whose practice is not based specifically on repressed memory therapy,
collaboration of memories with tangible external evidence or with persons
that are not currently in a similar therapeutic setting.
As far as evidence for the FMS position...I can’t say that I am fluent
enough with their “position” that I can argue their point. From what I
have seen of the organization, their message is that repressed memory
therapy lacks credibility. They claim to be interested in increasing
awareness about potential for repressed memory therapy to recover false
memories and the lack of evidence to support this type of therapy as prima
facie...What I have seen in support of this is compelling....I do know
that Richard Ofshe of Cal- Berkeley and Elizabeth Loftus of Univ of
Washington, are two of the foremost experts on Repressed Memory, I have
read some of their material. Richard’s paper, “Making Monsters -
Psychotherapy’s New Error: Repressed Memories, Multiple Personality and
Satanic Abuse.” People researching this issue should obtain some of these
studies. Seems to me, there role is not to prove that repressed memories
are false, its just to challenge the repressed memory community to show
validity for their methods and a high degree of realibility in the result.
The most compelling argument in favor of the existance of repressed
memories that I have heard deals with war veterans...IMHO the mind has the
ability to erase horrific details. But, in the memory studies I have seen
about war veterans..they never forgot for one moment that they were in
Vietnam (those that have forgotten suffer from psychosis that renders them
institutionally unfunctional) or a Nazi concentration camp or an
earthquake...they never painted the Cleaver or Nelson household and lived
and acted as successful, functioning members of society until one day they
checked into therapy, only to discover they were in Vietnam...no, they
were always aware of that they were in an ugly situation..they simply
blocked out many, but never all, of details the deep horrors..
I also have found a great many in the psycho\medical community that
believe that a single horrific incident can be repressed, but doubt that
repeated rape and incest over many years could be completely
forgotten.....Sorry, I am arguing, I don’t want to do that.....But, I
would like love to see any substantive academic studies done on this
issue. (this does not mean “pop” self-help books) Does anyone have any
references?
I have done a fair amount of therapy,(I still do), including memory
exploration. It is very powerful stuff. I have found it exceptionally
helpful in my life. I am not trying to take shots at therapy as an
institution. On the other hand, I consider myself a victim of sexual
abuse recovery or therapeutic abuse. So, I am very adamant in my believe
that there is an evil among us...To me, the evil is lack of truth about
this form of therapy and a general disregard for truth by many of its
participants. I am not here to tell you what truth is...I don’t
know...but I believe that in entering therapy you are allowing someone to
challenge your emotional framework, your sense of right and wrong and are
giving someone greater control over you outlook in life than any surgeon
that is performing brain surgery, yet, we don’t seem to require the same
standards of our therapists are we are blindly trusting them a whole lot
more....Where did they go to school..How much school...how much do they
really understand and study this stuff..how about medical
supervision...who? What credentials...What has been there history? (Some
therapists have an uncharacteristically high number of SA diagonoses).How
much therapy did they have...Are they clear of there issues? What is
general reputation? What do they know of this issue? What academic
citations can they give you in support of there practice?? etc..etc.
I am concerned that this issue turns into some type of political debate
where honest quest for the truth is the first casualty... too great of an
extent, it already has.. FMS seems to be universally thought of as the
enemy and inherently bad. The mental health professional community seems
to be quickly dividing into camps...I make one entry and I am labeled as a
“pro” or a “con” to be universally accepted or universally dismissed...the
truth isn’t relevant.. When I tell you my story of an over zealous
therapist and a very weak and emotionally wounded sister, do not concern
yourself with whether it happened to me, concern yourself with whether
there is a “chance” that you could be caught in the same system. Be
damned sure your not...
It is my understanding that one of the fundamental precepts of the
recovery process is recognizing the truth and dealing with it..... Let’s
do that. Let’s all keep open minds about this subject. There is an
argument out. And it there my be good evidence on both sides of the
argument, let’s find it, explore it, debate and assimilate it. Truth is
found when all explore the arguments with proper openness and proper
skepticism. Lunacy and evil are found when we talk and don’t listen.
Let’s dedicate ourselves to the honest quest for the truth. LIVING THE
LIE THAT NO ABUSE OCCURRED WHEN IT DID IS WRONG.....LIVING THE LIE THAT
ABUSE OCCURRED WHEN IT DID NOT IS EQUALLY WRONG. They are the same thing
with the roles of prep and victim changed. If false memories can happen,
lets make sure they don’t happen to us, If they can’t happen, lets know
for a fact. If there is pain, there is probably something askew....find
the true answer and make damn sure its the right answer before acting upon
it. Causing harm as a result of a reckless disregard for the truth is
considered criminal negligence and can be every bit the traumatic abuse we
all trying to stop.
I look forward to our continued dialogue...and, peace in healing.
May the truth be with us and guide us in our everyday....
SteveR0032
letter that my point may not be clear or is coming across in some sort of
threatening way. That is certainly not my intent. My main message is one
of caution. I feel I have been majorly wronged by abuse of therapy. I
want people to challenge whether such a thing could happen to them. I am
not here to stand on a soap box and tell everyone they are wrong, nor do I
wish to undermine the value of trying to understand yourself through the
process of looking seriously at your family structure through talk
therapy. Nor am I an FMS’er trying to wage a political battle. I am
trying to honestly and as sensitively as possible deal with an issue that
needs more attention and challenge than it is getting.
At issue is the validity of memories or more specifically, the degree of
liklihood to which this memories can be accurated recovered, and the level
of due diligence that people who have come to the conclusion that they
were victims of SA should be held accountable before acting upon their
beliefs in a way that affects others. There is no more appropriate forum
than ASAR for this discussion, as there over 2000 postings here in the
past 30 days, postings by people that are in some way dealing with this
issue. The challenge to this issue is not going away.
Tide Rider
> I am not trying to tell you are wrong or to undermine the value of trying
> to rebuild history through talk therapy. Nor am I an FMS’er trying to
> wage a political battle. I am trying to honestly and as sensitively as
> possible deal with an issue that needs more attention and challenge than
> it is getting. That issue has to do with the validity of memories, and
> the level of due diligence that people who have come to the conclusion
> that they were victims of SA should be held accountable before acting upon
> their beliefs in a way that affects others. There is no more appropriate
> forum than ASAR for this discussion, as there almost 2000 letters by
> people that are in some way dealing with this issue. I am not going away.
I don't agree that this *is* the forum to debate the validity of memories.
This matter is in fact addressed in the FAQ list. This is a *support*
group, not a discussion forum. The emphasis here is supposed to be on
healing and support.
Normally this would not be incompatible with an examintaion of the
validity of abuse memories, but the fact is that "It never happened,
you're imagination is running wild" is one of the more common ploys
used by abusers to maintain control. If we err here on the side of
blind acceptance, that is better than reinforcing the invalidation
imposed by those with a vested interest in concealing the truth.
We are not talking about prosecution here, we are talking about
recovery of the survivor.
Really, a more appropriate forum for this discussion is sci.psych,
where the matter has been discussed before many a time, and has in
fact generated a great deal of heat that really is NOT needed here!
This is as far as I intend to debate the matter. I will not
perpetuate this topic in this newsgroup. I hope others here
will follow my lead rather than let this degenerate into a shouting
match. Those who *do* wish to discuss it, I hope will either
keep it to email or move it out of ASAR. A compromise may be to move
it to ASARD.
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(Dave Toland) | that doon with."
SteveR0032
>I don't agree that this *is* the forum to debate the validity of
>memories. This matter is in fact addressed in the FAQ list. This is
>a *support* group, not a discussion forum. The emphasis here is
>supposed to be on healing and support.
My primary purpose is not to engage in a discussion or debate. I am here
to support. Support does not mean rah rah go for it support includes
helping people to do the right thing....I am not here to tell you what the
right thing is...just that you need to be very, very careful in reaching
conclusions based solely on things that are in your head. I want people
to be aware of very real issues that exist...
There are many people wrestling with issues in therapy, wondering f the
memories are real, wondering if they should confront the perp....I am
here to talk of some of the ramifications of those issues, to drive home
message of just how dangerous repressed memory therapy can be, and to
campaign for a healthy amount of cynicism, encourage people to collaborate
and verify...maybe seek a second opinion before acting.
I received a great many responses to my first post..some asking to go
away, some nicely, some not so nicely...I also received some very
supportive mail...and some similar stories to mine..so, I know this is a
relavent topic...
As with any bulletin board...people are free to read or ignore, depending
on their interest. I am hearing interest. But, out of respect to the
ASAR group, I will make no posting to any threads other than ones I create
or those that specifically deal with this issue directly...I will not
challenge the validity of memories of any individual and I will always
endeavor to be supportive (which does not mean that I cant disagree).
>Normally this would not be incompatible with an examination of the
validity of >abuse memories, but the fact is that "It never happened,
you're imagination is >running wild" is one of the more common ploys used
by abusers to maintain >control. If we err here on the side of blind
acceptance, that is better than >reinforcing the invalidation imposed by
those with a vested interest in concealing >the truth. We are not talking
about prosecution here, we are talking about >recovery of the survivor
...And one of the common ploys of the recovered memory community is to
suggest that only perps hide behind the it never happened but, I am
here to tell you that all too often it truly did never happen I know
from personal experience, but, you don't have to take my word for it...
there are more than 1000 former survivors that now say it never
happened. The problem is the grave consequences that happen when someone
believes, based solely upon a recovered memory, that they were a
survivor..they confront the people they think were the perps (usually a
family member), they think they feel better...meanwhile the family is
devastated....all because we err on the side of blind acceptance.
Perhaps USAir should err on the side of blind acceptance...that most
flights will get to their destinations, so they have a 10% failure
rate...we lose a few thousand passengers a day to death..but 90% arrive
alive.
Prehaps your heart surgeon should play the percentages ... be content
that 2/3 come through alive..
we don't tolerate the level of failure in other professionals that exists
in recovered memory therapy....no wonder people are outraged...no wonder
true survivors are fighting an uphill battle for credibility...
Recovered memory therapy has a very high error rate....this is life and
death and pain and suffering....TO WRONGLY ACCUSE IS TO LIVE A LIE...TO
MAKE YOURSELF THE REAL PERP AND THE ONES YOU THOUGHT THE PERP THE REAL
VICTIM. THIS IS WRONG!!!! This is my point...This is why I am here.
There are people here that are about to accuse...about to confront...what
if they are wrong?
Are the memories real???? Never stop asking that question..Satisfy
yourself!! PRACTICE SAFE THERAPY....BE CYNICAL, BE TRUE TO YOURSELF...
Step by Step
>My big argument on the danger of repressed memory therapy has to do with
>the fact that the scientific community is all over the map and the
>existance of a margin of error that I find incredibly...I have heard
>numbers quoted for 7% by Ellen Bass to as high as 100%....but I uniformly
>hear about a margin of error.. 7% isn t much better odds than Russian
>Roulette...then there is my airline analogy...7% would be 50 crashes a day
>at O Hare.....Why aren t we outraged by that.
Hey boy. We are talking psychology here, not technical subjects.
How much is the margin of error with weddings?
The latest figure I read about here said, that 50% of all couples
get divorced eventually.
>This is too a high margin of error is much too high for people to declare
>themselves victims of sexual abuse, cut off families, file lawsuits, put
>their spouse s and children through incredible stress and spend thousands
>on therapy and group therapy WITHOUT PROPER DUE DILIGENCE which should
>include at a minimum a opinion from another mental health professional
>whose practice is not based specifically on repressed memory therapy,
>collaboration of memories with tangible external evidence or with persons
>that are not currently in a similar therapeutic setting.
Again. Compare the following scenarios:
a) You go to a therapist with some problem, say orgasm problems. The
therapist says, that this must stem from sexual abuse, and you go
through all the stuff, without much success.
Some time later, you switch therapists. With the new therapist,
you find out, that you just don't like your girl-friend, that you
choose her, because your mother found her so cute, not because
you love her. You look for a new friend, that fits your taste,
not your mothers, and can really enjoy sex with her.
b) You hear from a friend, that she has been abuse. You want to care
for her, read Ellen Bass, and start asking yourself: have I been
affected, too?
You start therapy, go away from parents, just to find out, that
those memories, that you believe to be inside you never really
come out. After some time, the panic disappears inside you, and
you believe, that the panic was false alarm.
In other words: there are lots of bad therapists out there, that
impose their own opninion on you. They cause harm, and they give
new input to the FMS people. But then, FMS people do
over-simplify. They say, that all suppressed-memory therapy is
bad, not that some suppressed-memory therapy is bad.
BTW: The main foucs of Psychoanalysis is the subconscious. But
Psychoanalysis has been around for almost a century now. Why did
FMS society not form earlier? There are lots of memories
un-recovered by Psychoanalysis, and they have to do with sex,
too. The difference to Ellen Bass is, that Freud says, that the
memories represent conflicts of the child, while Ellen Bass says,
that the memories represent a real situation, so that the parents
are to blame.
>The most compelling argument in favor of the existance of repressed
>memories that I have heard deals with war veterans...IMHO the mind has the
>ability to erase horrific details. But, in the memory studies I have seen
>about war veterans..they never forgot for one moment that they were in
>Vietnam (those that have forgotten suffer from psychosis that renders them
>institutionally unfunctional)
J. Konrad Stettbacher, therapist in Switzerland, has quite some
experience with curing even strongly psychotic people with a
suppressed-memory therapy. See his book, or the book "Steinzeit"
from Mariella Mehr.
Wasn't it possible to find a Vietnam veteran, of whom we know the
stories, because other soldiers, that fighted next to him did not
forget, and let him do such a therapy, and eventually test,
whether the uncovered memories are identical to those, that were
reported by the other soldiers?
>or a Nazi concentration camp or an
>earthquake...they never painted the Cleaver or Nelson household and lived
>and acted as successful, functioning members of society until one day they
>checked into therapy, only to discover they were in Vietnam...no, they
>were always aware of that they were in an ugly situation..they simply
>blocked out many, but never all, of details the deep horrors..
You are wrong here, at least, when it comes to concentration camps.
People, who have been totally able to write a complete book, have
blocked out everything about the bad stuff. One example is
"Die Ausschwitz-Luege" ("the lie about Ausschwitz"), which claims,
that not one person has been killed in Ausschwitz!
People can commit crimes, and totally forget about them. Every
judge knows this situation, when it is 200% clear, that the
accused is guilty, but the accused still claims, that he is not,
and the judge begs the accused to confess, so he can give a lower
fine.
>I also have found a great many in the psycho\medical community that
>believe that a single horrific incident can be repressed, but doubt that
>repeated rape and incest over many years could be completely
>forgotten.....
It is exactly the other way round.
The more often you are raped, the more likely it is to forget.
The reason?
Rape real easily triggers memories of earlier rape. So, if you
are abused the second time, it will quite likely bring out the
memories of the first time. But back then, it was too much for
you to deal with it, so you pushed it away.
Very likely, it has now gotten even worse to deal with, so that
the memories are blocked out again....
>Sorry, I am arguing, I don t want to do that.....But, I
>would like love to see any substantive academic studies done on this
>issue. (this does not mean pop self-help books) Does anyone have any
>references?
>I have done a fair amount of therapy,(I still do), including memory
>exploration. It is very powerful stuff. I have found it exceptionally
>helpful in my life. I am not trying to take shots at therapy as an
>institution. On the other hand, I consider myself a victim of sexual
>abuse recovery or therapeutic abuse.
Therapeutic abuse is extremely common. Just ask around this group.
Almost everybody can tell you stories about bad therapists, be it
for themselves or for friends.
>So, I am very adamant in my believe
>that there is an evil among us...To me, the evil is lack of truth about
>this form of therapy and a general disregard for truth by many of its
>participants.
The evil is not the theory about sexual abuse recovery. The evil
are therapists, that force you into a treatment, that does not fit
you.
>I am not here to tell you what truth is...I don t
>know...but I believe that in entering therapy you are allowing someone to
>challenge your emotional framework, your sense of right and wrong and are
>giving someone greater control over you outlook in life than any surgeon
>that is performing brain surgery, yet, we don t seem to require the same
>standards of our therapists are we are blindly trusting them a whole lot
>more....
You are right and wrong. Society has a *huge* tendency to give away
control over themselves. Just look around you, and check, how many
people are addictive to drugs, or let themselves control by employer,
husband, wife, television, etc.
Unfortunately, the average therapist is not much better than the
average employer. How bad employer controls the employees, bad
therapists control their clients. Both is bad, but the later has
more potential danger.
>Where did they go to school..How much school...how much do they
>really understand and study this stuff..how about medical
>supervision...who? What credentials...What has been there history? (Some
>therapists have an uncharacteristically high number of SA diagonoses).How
>much therapy did they have...Are they clear of there issues? What is
>general reputation? What do they know of this issue? What academic
>citations can they give you in support of there practice?? etc..etc.
These are all the questions, that you have to ask, before you choose
your therapist. You have to first get into a postition, where you
can trust your therapist, before you let him or her work with you.
Ellen Bass has a large section about this. For me, Ellen Bass is
a book, which just introduces a lot of common sense, and love. She
is one-sided, but she clearly states so.
I have not yet seen a good book, filled with common sense, and love,
that really helps those parents, that have been left by their
children because of (false?) accusations. All I have seen is
anger from FMS people, that tell, how wrong something is, but not
the slightest syllable about how to deal with the anger!
If I have to chosse betwen the love of Ellen Bass and the anger
of Mrs. Rutschky (who promotes FMS in this country), I choose the
love.
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bob....@asb.com
thanx for sending this answer. My anon ain't working good
enough to tangle with this guy (Steve0032whatever). I have a bad
feeling about this stuff. I suspect his purpose is to start a debate
here over niggling details of interpetation that he might lever to
discredit of the whole idea of abuse recovery.
I answered his last post, privately, I think, with the gist
being that survivors are generally interested in the truth first. I
closed casually mentioning that even those of us with broken noses can
still smell. (Y'know, I shudda sued the bastard for a nose job!)
I think we can expect to see more of this kind of stuff in the
future... so keep your nose clear!
curzon
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SteveR0032
therapy.. I know from experience that my posts have raised the blood
pressure of some.
While I have this space, I do want to apologize for starting my posts off
on the top line. I am new here, and committed several faux paus. I have
since read the ASAR FAQ. I will work to be a better citizen.
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Curzon writes:
: I suspect his purpose is to start a debate
: here over niggling details of interpetation
: that he might lever to discredit of the whole
: idea of abuse recovery.
That is quite a mission...to personally discredit abuse recovery...
No, that is not my purpose, far from it!. I entered ASAR with a story
about my sister that went to see a therapist and came to the conclusion
that she was repeatedly raped by myself and my father over several years.
She came up with this stuff 15 years after is supposedly happened. In the
interim, participated in and orchestrated family functions and gatherings.
Yet, suddenly, without ANY corroborating evidence, she believes this
stuff. In the process, she has cut off ties with the family that she has
left devastated. I am a survivor of therapeutic abuse.
Her therapist didn’t know what she was doing (supposedly an expert in
sexual abuse...only degree is in teaching) and helped my sister come up
with the wrong answers to her problems. She is now a perp.
My sister did well in school and college..she is reasonably bright (before
this, I thought she was very bright).. She had no reason to want to be a
sexual abuse victim...but she now thinks she is.. she is a
psuedo-survivor.
It can happen.... This is what is discrediting the recovery movement.
People are skeptical of the real survivors because this stuff happens. It
is going to get worse.
The AMA and the APA both acknowledge a significant problem with the
reliability of repressed memory therapy. Lawyers are prevailing in suits
against therapists that don’t properly explain the potential side affects
of misguided memories.
It does happen. I have had this experience. I know. I also know a great
many others in similar situations. (Several have e-mailed me in response
to my first post.) I have met and talked at length to “recanters”
(persons that no longer identify themselves as sexual abuse survivors, but
now think of themselves as therapeutic abuse survivors) and therapists
that no longer practice recovered memory therapy.
People that have had no continuing memory of repeated traumatic events but
“discover” them as a result of therapeutic experience and cannot
corroborate them and attend some type of group therapy, are in a high risk
category of falling victim to this system. It is a system...No, you don’t
want to believe you are a sexual abuse survivor, but you are looking for
answers...you’re open minded and your wounded. The therapist has the
right answers...the group gives you a safe place so you can unblock those
deep, deep secrets...as they come up, the group is more and more accepting
of you...it all makes sense, as ugly as it is, it all makes sense...you
start to see things so differently...as you begin to re-write your basic
memory.... its a system...
I am certainly not going to change anyone’s mind about anything. But, I
can make people think. Its my hope that people in the early stages of
their therapeutic experience hear this and wonder...if they wonder they
will be more cautious and skeptical as they move forward. Maybe other
families will be spared the pain... maybe real healing can happen.
Please let me underscore, I believe the vast majority of ASARians are
legitimate survivors of sexual abuse. Although it may seem otherwise, my
heart is with you.
Steve
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>Curzon writes:
A few points:
a) If your sister leaving your family devastates your family, there
is some real problem there. A healthy family is not necessarily
devastated by someone leaving and doing false claims.
b) You may have done bad stuff to your sister, and you may not know
it. Repressed memories exist on both sides: the perp, and the
victim.
c) Even if the bad stuff had happened, it may not stop a relationship
between you and your sister. Working together on getting past an
abuse is possible, though hard.
>Her therapist didn t know what she was doing (supposedly an expert in
>sexual abuse...only degree is in teaching) and helped my sister come up
>with the wrong answers to her problems. She is now a perp.
Why is your sister a perp now?
>My sister did well in school and college..she is reasonably bright (before
>this, I thought she was very bright).. She had no reason to want to be a
>sexual abuse victim...but she now thinks she is.. she is a
>psuedo-survivor.
How can you tell, that your sister is a pseudo-survivor? Have you
the eyes of God, that see everything?
[snip]
>People that have had no continuing memory of repeated traumatic events but
> discover them as a result of therapeutic experience and cannot
>corroborate them and attend some type of group therapy, are in a high risk
>category of falling victim to this system. It is a system...No, you don t
>want to believe you are a sexual abuse survivor, but you are looking for
>answers...you re open minded and your wounded. The therapist has the
>right answers...the group gives you a safe place so you can unblock those
>deep, deep secrets...as they come up, the group is more and more accepting
>of you...it all makes sense, as ugly as it is, it all makes sense...you
>start to see things so differently...as you begin to re-write your basic
>memory.... its a system...
Cool boy.
What you say is, that people, who feel bad go to a therapist, and
experience the first time in a survivors' self help group, that they
are accepted as are, thus doing anything to keep this acceptance, in
your case: discover memories, that are wrong.
Two notes:
a) Several non-survivors have been around ASAR for quite some time.
They are highly accepted, too!
b) Why are there so few other places in society that accept people
that feel bad, have depressions, etc.?
>I am certainly not going to change anyone s mind about anything. But, I
>can make people think. Its my hope that people in the early stages of
>their therapeutic experience hear this and wonder...if they wonder they
>will be more cautious and skeptical as they move forward. Maybe other
>families will be spared the pain... maybe real healing can happen.
Sorry. You withspeak yourself within two sentences. First you
say, you won't change anyone's mind about anything, then you say,
that you would like people to be more cautious and skeptical, which
*is* influencing people's mind. This kind of thing, denying your
very own action, is MANIPULATION!
Stop it, if you want to be heard here.
>Please let me underscore, I believe the vast majority of ASARians are
>legitimate survivors of sexual abuse. Although it may seem otherwise, my
>heart is with you.
That's nice to hear.
>Steve
Who-am-i
SteveR0032.aol.com writes:
> This is spoilered as it discusses the reliability of repressed memory
> therapy.. I know from experience that my posts have raised the blood
> pressure of some.
"raised the blood pressure" - to put it mildly.... I am not as angry or
upset today, so I want to rationally and calmly dispute (and react to)
some of what you've said in this post. I hope it doesn't bother people
that I'm debating this guy - maybe some of what I say can be comforting
to those upset by this, as I was that other day......
> While I have this space, I do want to apologize for starting my posts off
> on the top line. I am new here, and committed several faux paus. I have
> since read the ASAR FAQ. I will work to be a better citizen.
This I appreciate. The apology and the spoiler. Keeping your
spoiler....
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> I entered ASAR with a story
> about my sister that went to see a therapist and came to the conclusion
> that she was repeatedly raped by myself and my father over several years.
This changes my attitude - as I mentioned, I missed your first post(s) -
I thought only your father or another family member was accused - I had
no idea you yourself were!! Now I'm doubly glad I posted my reply before,
instead of e-mailing you non-anon......brrrrrrrrr.......
> She came up with this stuff 15 years after is supposedly happened. In the
> interim, participated in and orchestrated family functions and gatherings.
Lots of us recovered memories many years after the abuse happened. That's
really not so strange - if the person had to repress the knowledge in the
first place (in order to emotionally and psychically survive) then he/she
has to reach a (mental) place in their life where they're safe enough to
remember - this can take many years. In the meantime, of course they might
"[participate] in and [orchestrate] family functions" etc. - why not? They
don't yet know about the abuse.....while some people do feel a sense of
hatred or distrust towards their abusers before they have recovered the
memories, not all do. Some people either repress "better" than others (more
fully), or the abusers may have mixed a lot of genuine good treatment in
with the bad - so the person remembers the good and not the bad, and
mistrusts his/her own feelings towards the (not-yet-identified) abusers.
Also, being the "good child", which would go along with orchestrating
these family functions, is a common reaction to abuse - the abused is
continually trying to be good enough to avoid further abuse. Often the
"best", most well-behaved children in a family are the ones getting
abused.
> Yet, suddenly, without ANY corroborating evidence, she believes this
> stuff. In the process, she has cut off ties with the family that she has
> left devastated. I am a survivor of therapeutic abuse.
>
> Her therapist didn t know what she was doing (supposedly an expert in
> sexual abuse...only degree is in teaching) and helped my sister come up
> with the wrong answers to her problems. She is now a perp.
You give no clue as to why your sister believes "this stuff". Chances are
her memories are so strong she feels she doesn't need corroboration.....
I know that my flashbacks are so vivid, so certain, that it's difficult to
even imagine that they could be fake.
Something you don't address is why your sister went to this therapist in
the first place, if everything was so great with her life. Why did she
go to a "[supposed] expert in sexual abuse" if she didn't already suspect
abuse?
I see you've read ASAR enough to know what words to throw around for
maximum effect (the therapist "perp".)
> My sister did well in school and college..she is reasonably bright (before
> this, I thought she was very bright).. She had no reason to want to be a
> sexual abuse victim...
Like my paragraph above, it's not uncommon for an abuse survivor, especially
one who repressed it, to do very well at school - more perfectionism, trying
to be "good"....Again, if your sister "had no reason to want to be a
sexual abuse victim", why do you think she believes she is?? It's hard to
believe that someone justs believes a therapist, unless their own heart
is telling them that it's true.
> It can happen....
This is one of the only things I agree with - I believe it can happen,
in a very small number of cases. I think it's very uncommon...
it's your particular case I have trouble believing....
I do agree that therapists have to be careful.
[snip]
> I have met and talked at length to recanters
> (persons that no longer identify themselves as sexual abuse survivors, but
> now think of themselves as therapeutic abuse survivors) and therapists
> that no longer practice recovered memory therapy.
I admit there are probably a small number of people who have recovered
false memories - I think it's a *much* smaller number than the FMSF would
have us believe. In your case, I admit that I probably can't figure out
the truth, at least from the little I know. But that doesn't mean I
automatically think *you* are telling the truth here.....and I believe
that many of those "recanters", perhaps some of the ones you've spoken
to, have only recanted because of severe pressure from their abusive
families, and because it's really much more pleasant not to be an
incest survivor. And the therapists are probably afraid of lawsuits -
doesn't mean that the therapy is wrong, lots of honest and good things are
squelched because of lawsuits these days.
> People that have had no continuing memory of repeated traumatic events but
> discover them as a result of therapeutic experience and cannot
> corroborate them and attend some type of group therapy, are in a high risk
> category of falling victim to this system. It is a system...No, you don t
> want to believe you are a sexual abuse survivor, but you are looking for
> answers...you re open minded and your wounded.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the sentence that caused me to reply to this post - in this paragraph
you are apparently talking about people who fall victim to this system, who
are not in fact abuse survivors at all, correct? Then, pray tell, in what
way are they "wounded"??? Why are these people "looking for answers" in
the first place? Isn't there some possibility that they are looking for
answers, and feel wounded, precisely because something traumatic *did*
happen to them? And by the way, something I've never seen answered by
a family member who claims to be falsely accused -- assuming her recovered
memories are false, why wouldn't your sister take the "easy way" and recover
a memory of being abused by a non-family person - say, a babysitter, stranger,
teacher, doctor, etc.?? Wouldn't that be much much easier on her - she could
have her nice explanation and support, but not ruin her family life......why
would this false memory have to be of people close to her? Many people recover
memoryies of being molested by a stranger - wouldn't that be a lot easier
on her? This implies to me that her recovered memory is genuine and real....
(so are these memories of strangers, of course - mine is! but they would
be the ones I would *choose* to remember if I had a choice....)
> I am certainly not going to change anyone s mind about anything. But, I
> can make people think.
Well, you did make me think. Mostly I now think you're an abuser. :(
I also think that if your sister came to ASAR, she would be believed,
and get the support she no doubt needs.....and would be a more appropriate
member of your family to be posting here, too.
> Its my hope that people in the early stages of
> their therapeutic experience hear this and wonder...if they wonder they
> will be more cautious and skeptical as they move forward. Maybe other
> families will be spared the pain... maybe real healing can happen.
Caution's fine. Denial is not.
> Please let me underscore, I believe the vast majority of ASARians are
> legitimate survivors of sexual abuse. Although it may seem otherwise, my
> heart is with you.
Well, I do also appreciate this. "Vast majority", huh? Up a bit from
your last "double-digit percentage" here being false....
My guess is that you are so far into denial that you might actually
believe you didn't abuse your sister, so your heart being with us may
actually be a genuine sentiment. Yes, it does seem otherwise :)
You know what? I hardly even care if you are one of those "let's mess
with newsgroups" fakers who purposely start flame wars. I'm actually
getting a little something out of this -- in fact, real progress in
one area - in the past, whenever I read FMS-type stuff, I would become
so upset and determined to "prove" my memory to myself, I would trigger
off flashbacks. That didn't happen this time. :-) I did get really
upset by that other post, but even so I think this is stirring some
important feelings in me....
Who-am-i