{ASSD} Now what do I do?
Pami1968
out there has a couple of my stories on it, and the owner has ignored my asking
him to take them off. I went to the next level and got this response. Any
suggestions now? The site, BTW, is xxx.xtremeheat.com. There are other
stories I recognize there as well. A small site, but that's not the point.
-Pami
Subj: Re: copyright violations
Date: 3/7/01 6:00:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time
From: hilar...@hotmail.com (Hilary Holz)
To: Pami...@aol.com
Hi,
I certainly understand your frustration, but unfortunately we aren't
in a position to address your concerns. We're a hosting company, not
a content provider. As such, we don't edit or censor material on our
clients' websites. Additionally, your complaint addresses legal
issues (copyright violation), and we're not lawyers, so cannot
make judgements as to whether someone is right or wrong. The usual
path in these sorts of cases is to retain a lawyer, get an injunction,
then provide us with a copy. At that point, we'll be happy to enforce
our acceptable use policy (which does contain a provision against
copyright violations). I hope you follow the distinction - once legal
experts have decided that a violation has occured, we'll be happy to
enforce the ruling. However, we don't have the expertise or the
legal authority to make such a decision ourselves.
Best of luck,
Hilary
P.S. By all means, pursue your case - I have seen quite a few people
receive satisfaction by following the above steps. Also, once you've
got the injunction, you'll be able to deal with future cases more
easily and cheaply.
Mr Slot
legal action, and that seeing as they are now aware that one of their
clients is breaking copyright laws and they refuse to take action then
they are open to the same lawsuit that you will be bringing against
their client. I'm sure they have a lot more money to lose too.
Of course, I don't know how legal that is, but if you're just
bluffing...
; )
Mr Slot
( I am in no way way offering legal advice on this issue blah, blah,
blah. )
On 07 Mar 2001 23:13:15 GMT, pami...@aol.com (Pami1968) chose to put
into words the following :-
Writers never lie.
They tell the truth from a different perspective.
Joyce Melton
>I guess you could write back saying that it's expensive to pursue
>legal action, and that seeing as they are now aware that one of their
>clients is breaking copyright laws and they refuse to take action then
>they are open to the same lawsuit that you will be bringing against
>their client. I'm sure they have a lot more money to lose too.
It wouldn't be bluffing, once they have been advised that they are
facilitating the breaking of copyright, they can be named in a suit
and damages sought. You might not win but it is worth mentioning.
They do have a point of course, a provider can't just take every
complaint they receive at face value but they have a responsibility to
all of their other contractees to enforce the rules against a
violator.
They are trying to hide behind their lawyers, but IMO their lawyers
should be advising them that they ought to at least investigate.
This is one reason I still want to get NACU off the ground, a letter
from a registry for Net Authors would carry more weight.
Joyce
Anne747
>This is one reason I still want to get NACU off the ground, a letter
>from a registry for Net Authors would carry more weight.
... checkbook ready with membership fee....
"the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation" -- Pierre Trudeau, 1967
To reply by mail - remove the b in the address
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anne's Erotic Stories Archive - http://annejet.pair.com/
Free Story FAQ - http://annejet.pair.com/fsfaq/
Anne747
>Subj: Re: copyright violations
>Date: 3/7/01 6:00:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time
>From: hilar...@hotmail.com (Hilary Holz)
>To: Pami...@aol.com
>
A host that uses hotmail? Hmmm, kind of fly-by-night...
Their Terms of Service (Exodus.net):
>Prohibited Activities. Customer will not, and will not permit any persons
>("Users") using Customer's online facilities and/or services,
>including, but not limited to, Customer's Web site(s) and transmission
>capabilities, to do any of the following ("Prohibited Activities"):
>engage in any activities or actions that infringe or misappropriate the
>intellectual property rights of others, including, but not limited to, using
>third party copyrighted materials without appropriate permission...
(sorry if it wraps funny, it didn't copy and paste well)
They've been notified, why aren't they asking the 'user' where their
'permission' is? Since they've been notified, you may be able to
recover legal costs from them also (if you go that route). IANAL
It seems that their 'Terms' are simply talk. They even go so far as
to define 'first complaint', 'second complaint', etc. It becomes
obvious it's simply been written by a lawyer to protect them. Ask
them if they have followed their 'First Complaint' procedure. Did
they give you contact information for their user? (Hmmm... Exodus is
a publically traded company. Wonder what the investors think of cut
rate porn sites?)
http://www.exodus.net/about_us/rules_and_regulations/
It took me 15 minutes to check all stories in 'issue 2' (I found, but
didn't check issue 1). They are from:
http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/Alt.Sex.Stories.Moderated/Year1999/19751
(I know the links are going to wrap.... so take the last number and
also go look at)
20305
18557
17995.txt
19261
18711
20432
20313
20330
19779
19055
21236
18177.txt
19239
18453
18732
18731
There are only a few authors we're talking about here. You might want
to contact them, and have them confirm they didn't give permission.
Since I don't see any email addresses on the xtremeheat site, I'd
guess that none were contacted.
I've (so far) had good luck with hosts pulling sites. Had one a month
ago just pull the entire site. Now, I had a little more ammunition.
I .always. put a copyright notice on my work (none of the above
stories carried one when first posted). And this last violator pulled
the text from my website (when there was html)... copyright notice,
hidden text, everything. A snapshot of the page was enough evidence I
needed.
Even though they can be easily stripped off, always put a copyright
notice on your posts. Even if you're the type of person who loves
people posting it, use something like:
Copyright 2001
Permission required for use / reposting.
You can give permission to everyone who asks. I'd just suggest you
make asking permission a requirement.
Personally, any webmaster posting content they don't create, SHOULD be
retaining all submissions, permission given emails, etc. I did when I
posted work on my site by other people. Xtremeheat should be able to
produce an email from you (since I note your email address is the
same). Perhaps you might point the host to your original post (note
the link above that points to your story may not be the first time you
posted it), and ask that Xtremeheat prove they have your permission to
use it.
Anne
See-El
> Well, people, I tried to do this in what I thought was the right way. A site
> out there has a couple of my stories on it, and the owner has ignored my asking
> him to take them off. I went to the next level and got this response. Any
> suggestions now? The site, BTW, is xxx.xtremeheat.com. There are other
> stories I recognize there as well. A small site, but that's not the point.
I might write back to Hilary stating that her company might be
part of any injunction, and that their limitations on liability
might be only if they have a designated agent to receive
notifications of claimed infringement, and to please provide the
name, address, phone number, and electronic mail address of the
agent.
Or not.
Unfortunately, the hoops that they give you might be seen as
something reasonable to a judge. You could try to write someone
else at the same company, preferably someone without a Hotmail
address. You could even send her a copy, showing that you wish
that someone there take it more seriously.
See-El
Alexis Siefert
Okay, apparently I have a lot of time on my hands (it is, after all, spring
break so I'm off work for the week), but went to check out this site. They
have 5 or 6 erotic stories currently on the site, and every last one of them is
an ASSTR-archived story. Two of them have author names attached to the story,
but no mention of copyright or author e-mail addresses. Additionally, they've
added photographs to each of the stories.
Respectfully,
Alexis
"All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."
Oscar Wilde
See-El
> Their Terms of Service (Exodus.net):
Exodus is a major backbone provider. They are the upstream to
many service providers, and though they are listed as the domain
servers, it is AccessAbility Internet Services who hosts the Web
site in question. While it may be possible to actually get a
non-autoacknowledgement from Exodus, I know of few who have.
These huge monsters are unresponsive in the best of times, and
probably many have dreamed of taking a large axe to their cable.
I see that Hilary Holz is the administrative contact for Ability
at any rate.
> They've been notified, why aren't they asking the 'user' where their
> 'permission' is? Since they've been notified, you may be able to
> recover legal costs from them also (if you go that route). IANAL
I think this is a good point. Why can't their burden be more
equally shared, and since someone who has something on their
site either wrote it or it is another's, a declaration or lack
of one could go a long way.
The latest news I heard on the owner of xtremeheat was that they
carted him off to jail for violating a restraining order. Classy
customers Ability.net has.
I think that Pami mention that she holds a law degree, perhaps
diving into US Code: Title 17, could result in billable hours to
Ability when a judgment results in reimbursement:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/
See-El
Rey del Sexo
>I might write back to Hilary stating that her company might be
>part of any injunction, and that their limitations on liability
Regretfully I'm not sure how liable this hosting company would
be. I think the legality of it is that it's only after you provide
them with PROOF that their clients are posting copywritten material
without the copyright holder's permission that they are under a "legal
obligation" to take action before they become liable.
Hopefully I'll have the opportunity to get my law degree some
day in copyright law (interesting stuff) but until then, I'm just
speculating.
One part of the ASSTR TOS says: "ASSTR respects the rights of
all copyright holders and in this regard, ASSTR has adopted and
implemented a policy that provides for the termination in appropriate
circumstances of account holders who infringe the rights of copyright
holders. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that
constitutes copyright infringement, please provide ASSTR's Copyright
Agent the following information required by the Online Copyright
Infringement Liability Limitation Act of the Digital Millennium
Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. ¤ 512: " It then goes on to list six pieces
of evidence a copyright holden must send if he/she wishes to have
his/her material removed.
What this means, according to the DMCA, is that copyright
holders are required to provide content hosts (ISP's) proof of
violations by sending them these required pieces of evidence. Until
you do this, I don't _think_ the host can be named in a copyright
suit. I could be wrong.
I'm not bringing this up to be anal; I'm an extreme advocate
of authors' rights, and ASSTR will always remove an authors work via a
simple email request unless we have a reason to believe the person is
not who he/she claims to be (has never happened)
Anyway, it's my understanding that this law exists to protect
ISP's from harassment. Say someone wants to shut down a legit site.
They email the site's host accusing the site of copyright violations.
With no evidence, how's the host supposed to take action? In this day
and age, the site could probably sue the host for harassment or
something a lawyer could surely think up if the host shut down the
site and it turned out they weren't actually doing anything illegal.
The law can be a nasty thing to deal with sometimes (most of
the time, probably)
I just thought I'd throw in my two cents. Good luck in
getting your works removed from the site.
- Rey del Sexo
Anne747
<ad...@asstr.nospam.org> wrote:
> One part of the ASSTR TOS says: "ASSTR respects the rights of
>all copyright holders and in this regard, ASSTR has adopted and
>implemented a policy that provides for the termination in appropriate
>circumstances of account holders who infringe the rights of copyright
>holders. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that
>constitutes copyright infringement, please provide ASSTR's Copyright
>Agent the following information required by the Online Copyright
>Infringement Liability Limitation Act of the Digital Millennium
>Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. ¤ 512: " It then goes on to list six pieces
>of evidence a copyright holden must send if he/she wishes to have
>his/her material removed.
>
If that's your policy, I need the information on how to stop my
monthly contribution. If I need to get a fucking lawyer to stop
people on ASSTR from posting MY work, I'll keep my money for that
eventuality.
Nice to see with your 'new' status, that your becoming another 'hey,
what's the big deal' webhost.
Stasya T. Canine
>If that's your policy, I need the information on how to stop my
>monthly contribution. If I need to get a fucking lawyer to stop
>people on ASSTR from posting MY work, I'll keep my money for that
>eventuality.
>
>Nice to see with your 'new' status, that your becoming another 'hey,
>what's the big deal' webhost.
>
This is only a comment:
Anne, that policy went into place last summer during the big horaw over
collection sites.
What I'm going to say now, I'll only say this once. To many of the regulars,
it will be old news. To do more than this once, would be unfair to Rey and
what he *has* accomplished. Consider me a distinct minority when it comes to
my feelings towards ASSTR and it's policies.
Shortly after the policy changes that led to the above, and due to my own
disagreements with other policies on ASSTR, I pulled my sites. As old as
my collection site was, I could have no longer provided copies of some of the
agreements to host some people's stories and in other cases, I would have
been violating privacy agreements I had about not giving out names and
addresses or any email conversations.
Pretty ironic since shortly after I started my site with a few favorites back
in Sept of 95, I was one of the few sites to start a policy of asking for
permission to post other people's work. Since I couldn't meet the
requirements, I figured I didn't want the potential hassles. I've ALWAYS
pulled stuff at the author's request, even if they had previously given
permission.
One of my other policies has always been that when permission was given,
stated or not, that permission to post was ONLY for a site under the direct
control of the person I gave permission to. Specifically, I did not seek or
tolerate mirroring. I still don't.
Now, so far, I'm quite happy over on Lazeez's server. Not as big but so far
he's displayed an integrity that honors the spirit of the agreements we made,
not just the letter.
ASSTR may be the biggest and most convenient site out there. It isn't the
only one.
To put it bluntly, it's the authors and readers who made ASSTR what it is.
You can tolerate whatever happens or you can work to change it.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea and generally a good place.
However, there have been some policies that were put in place due to
assumptions and quite frankly, complacency on the part of the authors, that I
have always disagreed with. Rey knows this.
I saw a possible future on ASSTR that I didn't care for and voted with my
feet.
I'm NOT happy about sitting here and suddenly finding myself in a position to
potentially be able to say: "I told you so".
Quite honestly, what happens on ASSTR concerns me only from the viewpoint of
a reader who seldom goes there. I'm no longer involved as an author. And,
only the authors and other supporters have the power to influence what
happens now. I care but last year I decided to leave ASSTR and adopt a wait
and see attitude. Well, I'm glad I did. From my viewpoint as an author,
things have become worse.
It's up to you folks now.
To put it bluntly, the only thing I see that *might* shift some policies is a
mass exodus of many of the 'name' authors.
I don't see that happening.
----
"Community togetherness can lead to a consensus outlook that seeks and destroys
any dissident element, no matter how small and really harmless."
Dean R. Koontz: "A Darkness in My Soul", published June 1972
http://storiesonline.net/Stasya_T_Canine - Hosted by: http://storiesonline.net (Thanks Lazeez!)
Tails of Rabelaisia - http://www.FurNation.com/Nikkolai
sta...@storiesonline.unspam.net
Pami1968
>holders are required to provide content hosts (ISP's) proof of
>violations by sending them these required pieces of evidence. Until
>you do this, I don't _think_ the host can be named in a copyright
>suit.
Rey, you have a good point. However, upon reading the statute in question, the
elements of notification simply require notification to the service provider of
basic facts, such as (but not exclusively) what the items are, who is running
the site, and, this is key "...the complaining party has a good faith belief
that the use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by
the copyright owner..." It doesn't seem that you need to prove beyond a doubt
that your works are copyrighted, rather it presumes that if you claim copyright
infringement, it is the duty of the server to investigate such claims.
At any rate, that is my understanding of the whole thing. I could be wrong, as
intellectual property was not a specialty.
And we all know ASSTR would never do such a thing. :)
-Pami
Stasya T. Canine
wrote:
> I'm not bringing this up to be anal; I'm an extreme advocate
>of authors' rights, and ASSTR will always remove an authors work via a
>simple email request unless we have a reason to believe the person is
>not who he/she claims to be (has never happened)
>
I'll confirm that Rey has always been easy to work with on getting stuff
removed. An email has turned the trick when I've had a problem.
He has some points on the legal aspects. ISPs come under the same laws as
public utilities. When you take that into consideration, they need more than
'someone is posting my work without permission'.
When you contact someone upstream of the site or even the original site, it
makes sense to give them at least the following:
The specific URL
A copy of the original post (with headers if it was to usenet)
A copy of the offending page
If you have your own site, a copy from your site.
If you don't include a copyright notice on every page of your site, but do on
the opening page, make that clear, along with at least a link to it, if not a
copy.
Include links to relevant portions of some well known copyright sites. In
spite of what their TOS may imply, the person who actually deals with your
problem may not know the actual legalities and/or not be willing to abide by
them if they do. Let them know that *you* know your rights and are not just
someone with a grudge.
Sure, for the first contact, if you feel you may be dealing with someone
reasonably ethical, you don't have to do all of this.
It's a pain, but if you do go further than personal contact, it will
definitely help you build your case if you've done your homework.
<facetious mode>
WRT mirroring ASSTR:
Since they've already proven they are capable of mirroring asstr and
concentrated efforts by authors have been unable to get them shut down, how
about ASSTR recognizing the 'reliability' of their work and making stories.nl
an 'official mirror' for ASSTR?
Wouldn't cost ASSTR a penny either. :/
Maybe that way I can finally get my stuff removed.
</facetious mode>
Jeff Zephyr
>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:24:03 -0500, Rey del Sexo
><ad...@asstr.nospam.org> wrote:
>
>
>> One part of the ASSTR TOS says: "ASSTR respects the rights of
>>all copyright holders and in this regard, ASSTR has adopted and
>>implemented a policy that provides for the termination in appropriate
>>circumstances of account holders who infringe the rights of copyright
>>holders. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that
>>constitutes copyright infringement, please provide ASSTR's Copyright
>>Agent the following information required by the Online Copyright
>>Infringement Liability Limitation Act of the Digital Millennium
>>Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. ¤ 512: " It then goes on to list six pieces
>>of evidence a copyright holden must send if he/she wishes to have
>>his/her material removed.
>>
>
>If that's your policy, I need the information on how to stop my
>monthly contribution. If I need to get a fucking lawyer to stop
>people on ASSTR from posting MY work, I'll keep my money for that
>eventuality.
It isn't the policy; read Rey's message further to see about taking
action based on email requests. The DMCA provides some specific
requirements, but a service provider is free to go beyond the minimum.
Note that the same applies to other ISPs and OSPs. Given a request,
if unwilling to take on the liability for pulling service (opening
them to a lawsuit), they aren't harmed by sending a letting forwarding
the request, recommending that all legal requirements are met with the
threat of termination of service if they are not. But if the hosted
site doesn't cooperate with this kind of threat, they are stuck with a
risk of legal action (and loss of other customers) from the site, if
they go ahead and pull service without proof.
>Nice to see with your 'new' status, that your becoming another 'hey,
>what's the big deal' webhost.
Well, removing a site/material which *wasn't* in violation of
copyright also violates rights. Webhosts trying to be honest have a
hard time working between the two pressures. ASSTR, unlike many
others, is supported by the authors posting there, and naturally tends
to favor the author's rights. Some others favor whoever is paying
them money, since terminating service costs them funds and may make
them go out of business. OTOH, a lawsuit would cost more, so they
need to make sure that is avoided as well, so following the law
strictly is a good thing, in that regard. Being willing to look into
accusations of illegal activity is nice, too, but not all ISPs worry
about whether illegal things are going on (Napster makes a big show of
that sort of thing).
Copyright proof isn't too hard to get, under USA law. It costs a
little money, and there is a real problem with anonymity in doing it.
Everything posted on ASSM or on ASSTR has nice dates of posting and
sources, good enough to prove origination.
--
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
Jeff Zephyr
>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:24:03 -0500, Rey del Sexo
><ad...@asstr.nospam.org> wrote:
>
>
>> One part of the ASSTR TOS says: "ASSTR respects the rights of
>>all copyright holders and in this regard, ASSTR has adopted and
>>implemented a policy that provides for the termination in appropriate
>>circumstances of account holders who infringe the rights of copyright
>>holders. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that
>>constitutes copyright infringement, please provide ASSTR's Copyright
>>Agent the following information required by the Online Copyright
>>Infringement Liability Limitation Act of the Digital Millennium
>>Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. ¤ 512: " It then goes on to list six pieces
>>of evidence a copyright holden must send if he/she wishes to have
>>his/her material removed.
>>
>
>If that's your policy, I need the information on how to stop my
>monthly contribution. If I need to get a fucking lawyer to stop
>people on ASSTR from posting MY work, I'll keep my money for that
>eventuality.
It isn't the policy; read Rey's message further to see about taking
action based on email requests. The DMCA provides some specific
requirements, but a service provider is free to go beyond the minimum.
Note that the same applies to other ISPs and OSPs. Given a request,
if unwilling to take on the liability for pulling service (opening
them to a lawsuit), they aren't harmed by sending a letting forwarding
the request, recommending that all legal requirements are met with the
threat of termination of service if they are not. But if the hosted
site doesn't cooperate with this kind of threat, they are stuck with a
risk of legal action (and loss of other customers) from the site, if
they go ahead and pull service without proof.
>Nice to see with your 'new' status, that your becoming another 'hey,
>what's the big deal' webhost.
Well, removing a site/material which *wasn't* in violation of
See-El
>> I might write back to Hilary stating that her company might be
>> part of any injunction, and that their limitations on liability
>
> Regretfully I'm not sure how liable this hosting company would
> be. I think the legality of it is that it's only after you provide
> them with PROOF that their clients are posting copywritten material
> without the copyright holder's permission that they are under a "legal
> obligation" to take action before they become liable.
The Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act, as
the name suggests, provides limitations to liability; this
providing that they have a designated agent to receive
notifications of claimed infringement, and that that agent have
a name, address, phone number, and electronic mail address to
be contacted at. No fair locking it in the bottom cabinet, in a
disused lavatory, in the basement.
> One part of the ASSTR TOS says: "ASSTR respects the rights of
> all copyright holders and in this regard, ASSTR has adopted and
> implemented a policy that provides for the termination in appropriate
> circumstances of account holders who infringe the rights of copyright
> holders. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that
> constitutes copyright infringement, please provide ASSTR's Copyright
> Agent the following information required by the Online Copyright
> Infringement Liability Limitation Act of the Digital Millennium
> Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. ñ 512: " It then goes on to list six pieces
> of evidence a copyright holden must send if he/she wishes to have
> his/her material removed.
While they might be within their rights to make authors jump
through hoops, it isn't right, and Pami might look for
loopholes to drag them in as well. I think that she mentioned a
law degree. Might be worth digging in for.
See-El
Mr Slot
saying that not just anyone can lay claim to a story and demand that
it be pulled. Personally I'm glad he doesn't have this "Shoot first,
ask questions later" attitude.
If everyone did this I wouldn't be here right now because someone
complained about me spamming to my ISP. I would have had to find
another ISP because I would have been shut off without any proof.
If I remember correctly that was because of another copyright war.
Fortunately it couldn't be proved that I was spamming, simply because
I wasn't. It was just someone trying to get even or something.
Personally I back Rey's attitude.
Mr Slot
On 8 Mar 2001 18:42:04 -0600, Anon...@aol.com (Anne747) chose to put
into words the following :-
>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:24:03 -0500, Rey del Sexo
Writers never lie.
Anne747
<sta...@unspam.storiesonline.net> wrote:
>Shortly after the policy changes that led to the above, and due to my own
>disagreements with other policies on ASSTR, I pulled my sites. As old as
>my collection site was, I could have no longer provided copies of some of the
>agreements to host some people's stories and in other cases, I would have
>been violating privacy agreements I had about not giving out names and
>addresses or any email conversations.
I don't know why you would bother. They don't drop collectors for not
being able to offer proof (or even outright infringement). The only
collector I can think of that is gone over complaints, left on his
own.
>Now, so far, I'm quite happy over on Lazeez's server. Not as big but so far
>he's displayed an integrity that honors the spirit of the agreements we made,
>not just the letter.
We hold differing opinions on his integrity, but such is life. (What
do people think of sites that 'frame' content from other ones? I'm
not talking about people that submit links to their own websites, more
about ones that point to ASSM posts on ASSTR.)
>I saw a possible future on ASSTR that I didn't care for and voted with my
>feet.
>
>I'm NOT happy about sitting here and suddenly finding myself in a position to
>potentially be able to say: "I told you so".
I've never been 'part' of ASSTR. Once they looked for donations, I
was a contributor. I think the services they offer individual authors
is a good thing. There are too many things I don't like though. I
put aside my hesitations and continued my support a couple of months
ago (when my cc expired, and I could easily have stopped). I thing my
time with that is past though.
>It's up to you folks now.
>
>To put it bluntly, the only thing I see that *might* shift some policies is a
>mass exodus of many of the 'name' authors.
>
>I don't see that happening.
Honestly Staysa, I wouldn't hold my breath (for either to happen).
Anne747
wrote:
>Copyright proof isn't too hard to get, under USA law. It costs a
>little money, and there is a real problem with anonymity in doing it.
>Everything posted on ASSM or on ASSTR has nice dates of posting and
>sources, good enough to prove origination.
Which is very nice if you post to ASSM or ASSTR. Everything of mine
that has been found on ASSTR has only ever been posted to MY website.
Some helpful little collector has provided it (or taken it).
Sorry Jeff, but perhaps you haven't been around long enough to
remember the last time this came up. My big problem is that they
claim to respect authors, but pretty much act like every other host.
They remove 'one by one' IF an author can find their work on the site.
So far, none of the violators have been tossed. (In one case the
submitter had changed the character name in the story. I found out
when they reposted it to ASSM. FWIW - when I took submissions for my
site, I actually did quick checks on everything I decided to post,
using a search engine. Of course, if they did things like that, they
couldn't have 8500+ stories with their banner on them, right?)
Personally, I've seen better response from other webhosts. I myself,
although sometimes ignored by ASSTR archivers, have never had any
problem getting Rey to remove my work. I just don't feel I should
have to think 'hmmm... wonder if I should go use the ASSTR search
engine to see what the archivers are up to today'.
Mr Slot
Rey would appreciate it.
Or maybe it would be best if places like ASSTR were to close down
completely, therefore removing any possiblitity of someone abusing the
system. Sure, there may be a little inconveinience for readers and
authors (like a significant cut in stories), but as long as a few
authors can claim victory and dance on the grave of sensibility then
everything should be A-Ok.
You know, I usually jump up and down when someone comes in here
stating they can post anything they like, wherever they like. But you
are the other side of the extreme. Nothing should be posted unless
there is submitted proof of ownership, in triplicate, and preferably
written in blood.
I figure you have three choices here.
1. You can continue to whinge about a service that most others
appreciate.
2. You can pack up your stories and go home.
3. You can find some middle ground like the rest of us, and enjoy your
gift.
Mr Slot
On 10 Mar 2001 23:10:06 -0600, Anon...@aol.com (Anne747) chose to put
into words the following :-
>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:35:04 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeff...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>Personally, I've seen better response from other webhosts. I myself,
>although sometimes ignored by ASSTR archivers, have never had any
>problem getting Rey to remove my work. I just don't feel I should
>have to think 'hmmm... wonder if I should go use the ASSTR search
>engine to see what the archivers are up to today'.
>
>Anne
>
>
>"the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation" -- Pierre Trudeau, 1967
And Rey et al does?
Anne747
wrote:
>Maybe you could offer to do DNA testing on all posts Anne, I'm sure
>Rey would appreciate it.
Fuck off
>Or maybe it would be best if places like ASSTR were to close down
>completely, therefore removing any possiblitity of someone abusing the
>system. Sure, there may be a little inconveinience for readers and
>authors (like a significant cut in stories), but as long as a few
>authors can claim victory and dance on the grave of sensibility then
>everything should be A-Ok.
>
>You know, I usually jump up and down when someone comes in here
>stating they can post anything they like, wherever they like. But you
>are the other side of the extreme. Nothing should be posted unless
>there is submitted proof of ownership, in triplicate, and preferably
>written in blood.
No, anyone who posts work that isn't their own should be following the
rules that ASSTR themselves posts on the site. Ever read them?
Violators (repeated ones especially) should be asked to validate the
work on their sites. Right now, if you have 1000 stories in a
collection, in theory, 1000 authors would have to request removal
before the site was completely shut down.
>I figure you have three choices here.
>
>1. You can continue to whinge about a service that most others
>appreciate.
So fucking what? This started because Pami objected to someone using
her work on another site. I suppose she should just shut the fuck up
and do nothing. I'm sure tons of visitors to every rip off site don't
give a shit about where the content comes from. So we shouldn't
complain about a service that most others appreciate, right?
>2. You can pack up your stories and go home.
I've considered this, more often lately.
>3. You can find some middle ground like the rest of us, and enjoy your
>gift.
In other words, if I don't toe the party line with respect to ASSTR I
should just shut the fuck up.
How nice.
"the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation" -- Pierre Trudeau, 1967
To reply by mail - remove the b in the address
Mr Slot
into words the following :-
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:38:24 +1000, Mr Slot <mr_...@optusnet.com.au>
>wrote:
>
>>Maybe you could offer to do DNA testing on all posts Anne, I'm sure
>>Rey would appreciate it.
>
>Fuck off
<Response deleted>
Don't even think of equating what Rey does with what that scumbag
Pami's having trouble with does. Jesus H Christ, if you can't see what
the difference is then I pity you.
>
>>2. You can pack up your stories and go home.
>
>I've considered this, more often lately.
>
>>3. You can find some middle ground like the rest of us, and enjoy your
>>gift.
>
>In other words, if I don't toe the party line with respect to ASSTR I
>should just shut the fuck up.
Oh yes, that's what I meant. Seig Heil and all that. Let's all goose
step our way down to Rey's place for the weekly party meeting.
And quite frankly I wish you would "shut the fuck up". This spiteful
attack on someone who's providing a service to you, and your fellow
authors is unprovoked, and totally uncalled for.
Mr Slot
Stasya T. Canine
has become larger.
To ignore those problems or attempt to whitewash them is foolish and only
encourages more... I'm sorry but no other terms fit - 'hubris and arrogance'.
I'll stand with Anne747 on this one.
For avowedly supporting author's rights and 'opt in' over 'opt out', ASSTR
has a singular blind spot when it comes to things that are convenient for
them.
It is damned inconvenient for me to opt out of having my stuff archived there
every time I post. Yes, I know about the no archive flag. How well is that
option propagated to other and newer authors? Is there a mention at the
bottom of every post to let people know about the fact they have a choice?
No and so far as I know there never has been. An autoresponder could be set
up to respond to every post by emailing the sender. One line could be added
to the 'sig' that gets added. Has this been done? No.
Every other site on ASSTR is supposed to be opt-in. But, the assm archives
are opt out and not advertised as such. "Anyone who knows enough about
posting to ASSM should know about the policy."
In a word, *BULL*!
Life ain't like that. Most people do NOT take the time to track down the FAQ
and learn they have to opt out rather than opt in.
Show some responsibility. As the largest, most convenient site out there,
ASSTR sets the example for all the others.
Personally, I think autoarchiving the ASSM posts should have never been
continued when ASSTR took over moderation. It would have been smarter and in
the long run better for all if a response system had been set up to politely
offer authors a place to archive their posts if they wished. Filters should
have been set up that only archived those who gave permission for archiving.
That archiving can be done from the newserver rather than from the incoming
posts. It could have been done and can be done.
If the desire is there.
How many good authors are starting to shift to only posting to ASS? I
suspect that the drain will continue as people decide that ASSTR is no longer
as 'author friendly' as it should be.
Perhaps it's time for someone to come up with an alternative to ASSTR.
And not to belabor the obvious but, it is 'text repository'. The name of the
game is text, not images. How much bandwidth is being eaten by all the
graphics on the various web sites? 30%? 50%? More than half of it?
Maybe someone should take a good look at the logs and see.
Ahhh...
The HELL with it. No opinions are going to be changed here.
I'll finally shut up.
Anne747
wrote:
>And quite frankly I wish you would "shut the fuck up". This spiteful
>attack on someone who's providing a service to you, and your fellow
>authors is unprovoked, and totally uncalled for.
ASSTR provides no service to me. They don't host my work, I don't
read stories from there. The only thing they do is mirror my FAQ
(which they asked me about). Since they have taken credit card
contributions, I have supported them with $25 / month.
I plan to 'shut the fuck up'. That support stops now.
Anne
reed wright
<sta...@unspam.storiesonline.net> wrote:
>
>For avowedly supporting author's rights and 'opt in' over 'opt out', ASSTR
>has a singular blind spot when it comes to things that are convenient for
>them.
>
>It is damned inconvenient for me to opt out of having my stuff archived there
>every time I post. Yes, I know about the no archive flag. How well is that
>option propagated to other and newer authors? Is there a mention at the
>bottom of every post to let people know about the fact they have a choice?
>
Umm, excuse me. I'm just a reader here, but I want to make a comment.
By opting out, authors are removing their work from being read.
I'm afraid I don't quite understand the logic for that.
If you don't want it read, why do you post?
My news feed is not extremely reliable, and I rely on browsing the
ASSM archives and the "ASSTR new posts" to catch up on my reading. I
don't think I'm the only one out here in that state. While authors
might have regular readers that have the author's web site in their
favorites list, new readers probably would not. Also, many potential
new readers are (shall we say gently) less than experienced at Usenet.
If the author's goal is to restrict the universe of potential readers,
then fine, but I wasn't aware that that is usually the stated goal.
Please note, I'm not speaking a single word here in support of people
that deliberately steal another's work and attempt to profit by it in
some manner. Changing character names and the like is absolutely
despicable.
I do think that within the current state of the technology, some slack
needs to be given to those who are honestly trying to provide a
service to the reading and writing community. Once a file is
identified as being unauthorized, it should be pulled, absolutely.
But expecting Rey to police every post is not very reasonable. If you
could guarantee that the Author's name, _working_ email address, and
reposting policy was permanently attached to every paragraph, then
maybe, but that's just not currently possible.
just my 1/2 cents worth
reed wright
Katie McN
On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:38:24 +1000, you might have said:
>Maybe you could offer to do DNA testing on all posts Anne, I'm sure
>Rey would appreciate it.
>
>Or maybe it would be best if places like ASSTR were to close down
>completely, therefore removing any possiblitity of someone abusing the
>system. Sure, there may be a little inconveinience for readers and
>authors (like a significant cut in stories), but as long as a few
>authors can claim victory and dance on the grave of sensibility then
>everything should be A-Ok.
>
>You know, I usually jump up and down when someone comes in here
>stating they can post anything they like, wherever they like. But you
>are the other side of the extreme. Nothing should be posted unless
>there is submitted proof of ownership, in triplicate, and preferably
>written in blood.
>
>I figure you have three choices here.
>
>1. You can continue to whinge about a service that most others
>appreciate.
>
>2. You can pack up your stories and go home.
>
>3. You can find some middle ground like the rest of us, and enjoy your
>gift.
>
You're wasting your time with this Mr Slot. It would be best to ignore
these comments and let the thread die. Nothing will be changed by
continuing on. The people who hold the extreme positions are not going
to change or be any nicer or logical than they have been already so
you should just forget it.
When I started some game and asked Stasya to join in, he accepted and
then flamed me in the group for suggesting that we have a website on
assm as we've done for almost all the games we've played. Since he and
I talked via ICQ and since he had my e mail address, his attack in the
newsgroup as the first salvo appeared to me as mean spirited. Denny
suggested that I do something to make things better and so I
apologized to him. He waited a week and coldly accepted my apology and
said nothing about his rude attack on me. Well that told me all I
needed to know and I no longer care what he has to say about anything.
I'm not even going to comment on Anne except to say that I've had her
kf for quite awhile as I don't care to read her attacks on everything.
I would suggest that people read some of her posts in deja.com
(google) to see what I mean.
--
It's me! Your pal,
Katie McN <kati...@excite.com>
Read all my stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN
Jeff Zephyr
>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:35:04 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <jeff...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Copyright proof isn't too hard to get, under USA law. It costs a
>>little money, and there is a real problem with anonymity in doing it.
>>Everything posted on ASSM or on ASSTR has nice dates of posting and
>>sources, good enough to prove origination.
>
>Which is very nice if you post to ASSM or ASSTR. Everything of mine
>that has been found on ASSTR has only ever been posted to MY website.
>Some helpful little collector has provided it (or taken it).
Hmm, your website might allow for such documentation as well, as the
original publishing site.
>Sorry Jeff, but perhaps you haven't been around long enough to
>remember the last time this came up. My big problem is that they
>claim to respect authors, but pretty much act like every other host.
>They remove 'one by one' IF an author can find their work on the site.
>So far, none of the violators have been tossed. (In one case the
>submitter had changed the character name in the story. I found out
>when they reposted it to ASSM. FWIW - when I took submissions for my
>site, I actually did quick checks on everything I decided to post,
>using a search engine. Of course, if they did things like that, they
>couldn't have 8500+ stories with their banner on them, right?)
I don't remember all the details of everything, but there are two
parts to the ASSTR archives. The ASSM archive, and the hosted sites.
The rules for each are different. Anyone posting to ASSM gets that
stuff put into the ASSM archive, as a newsgroup archive,
automatically, as it goes out to the newsgroup. The stuff put on the
websites, though, is put on by specific posters, not as part of a
newsgroup, and the poster is the one responsible for the material.
I don't know about the legal issues of tossing people off ASSTR.
Deliberate, repeated copyright violations would be a reason. Blocking
stuff posted to ASSM, though, opens the liability up considerably.
Allowing removal from the archives seems like a safe compromise, to
avoid legal problems for ASSTR.
>Personally, I've seen better response from other webhosts. I myself,
>although sometimes ignored by ASSTR archivers, have never had any
>problem getting Rey to remove my work. I just don't feel I should
>have to think 'hmmm... wonder if I should go use the ASSTR search
>engine to see what the archivers are up to today'.
It is true that I might worry more if my stuff weren't posted with a
free distribution statement, for non-commercial use. The reposters to
ASSM (not to hosted sites) are a bit harder to deal with, and run into
a serious problem of censorship (and lawsuits for doing so) if posts
to the newsgroup are blocked.
Anne747
wright) wrote:
>But expecting Rey to police every post is not very reasonable. If you
>could guarantee that the Author's name, _working_ email address, and
>reposting policy was permanently attached to every paragraph, then
>maybe, but that's just not currently possible.
My suggestion is that individual archive sites should be doing this
.before. they post. And violators caught doing it once, should be
expected to do something to prove they aren't still doing it.
One of the things I'm doing today is going through old diskettes
(archiving them onto CD). I couldn't possibly do them all at once....
however, I can do 25 or 50 at a shot. Why shouldn't repeated
offenders be asked to do the same?
Simple, because an archive of 8500 files might only be able to verify
that they had permission to archive 25%. Then the readers would be
disappointed. (This is my main argument why authors' rights aren't
really the main thrust with the archive section. One archivist
continually used to point out that plenty of people thanked her for
her archive. Because of this, people like myself (who she did steal
from) were supposed to cut her some slack).
I found one definite violation in that archive last night, and another
one that violated the 'don't remove the headers' (which would have
been okay if the headers had been left on). The archive header had of
course, been added.
Ah well, things never change.
Anne
Stasya T. Canine
wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:05:20 GMT, Stasya T. Canine
><sta...@unspam.storiesonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>For avowedly supporting author's rights and 'opt in' over 'opt out', ASSTR
>>has a singular blind spot when it comes to things that are convenient for
>>them.
>>
>>It is damned inconvenient for me to opt out of having my stuff archived there
>>every time I post. Yes, I know about the no archive flag. How well is that
>>option propagated to other and newer authors? Is there a mention at the
>>bottom of every post to let people know about the fact they have a choice?
>>
>
>
>Umm, excuse me. I'm just a reader here, but I want to make a comment.
>
>
>By opting out, authors are removing their work from being read.
>
Authors are opting out of using a a service that does not give them the
control they wish.
As for not being read, that is a price paid. And, if you look real close at
my sig, I maintain web sites of my own.
The right to choose.
Is that so very difficult to understand? I, for one, am getting tired of
hearing 'what about the readers?'
Well, what about them? Do they put food on my table? Do they even bother to
send me email?
No. And No.
I've been posting stories to the net for coming up on 6 years. I've done a
hell of a lot 'for the readers'. As the one who put all the work into this
relationship, I should be allong to say, just *once* and without having to
constantly repet myself...
"I want out of the relationship."
As currently set up, I cannot post to *usenet* via ASSM and expect my work to
stay off of ASSTR. ASSTR is NOT ASSM. It supports the moderation center for
the newsgroup. I'd like to be able to not use the x-no archive flag and
allow my work to stay *on the news servers* but I cannot do so because that
usenet feature has been used for the convenience of ASSTR to keep stories off
their *web* site.
Also, as set up, having to use a special code to tell a web host I don't want
my stories on is the same as telling a discarded lover that I don't want to
see them any longer.
I'm tired of having to repeat myself.
I want to end the relationsip, but I cannot because ASSTR has made it
impossible for me to do so if I wish to post to ASSM, which, by all rights,
should be completely isolated from the services ASSTR provides as a web host.
Stasya T. Canine
>When I started some game and asked Stasya to join in, he accepted and
>then flamed me in the group for suggesting that we have a website on
>assm as we've done for almost all the games we've played. Since he and
>I talked via ICQ and since he had my e mail address, his attack in the
>newsgroup as the first salvo appeared to me as mean spirited. Denny
>suggested that I do something to make things better and so I
>apologized to him. He waited a week and coldly accepted my apology and
>said nothing about his rude attack on me. Well that told me all I
>needed to know and I no longer care what he has to say about anything.
All right.
Is it rude to openly express your opinions about having the rules suddenly
changed *after* an agreement has been made based on other 'rules'?
I made the public post because the rule change affected everyone involved,
not just me.
How many times have you, Katie, gone after people you disagree with with
personal attacks? Far more than I have I think.
I was angry. Very angry. And that *cold* acceptance was my way of letting
you know that as far as I was concerned, you were on probation wrt to your
tendencies to take over things. It took time for me to cool down enough so I
could send an email that didn't include more about your assumption of powers.
You suggested the 'contest/challenge'. The other person agreed to do it.
Only then did you jump in and take over. It may have been your idea but when
he decided to do and made that post, it became *his*, not yours. You should
have kept control form the very first if all along you wanted it to be seen
as yours.
I strongly suggest you and anyone else who doesn't like to hear viewpoints
that don't blindly follow the pack...
Kill filter me.
I've been around far longer and am quite used to being ignored. It bothers
me a bit sometimes but then that's part of the price I pay for being willing
to express myself.
You did what far too many folks do. Automatically *assumed* that everyone
would go along with the idea ofhaving their work posted to ASSTR. My desire
to not have my work there was well known at the time and openly expressed on
more than one occassion.
Yet, it was ignored. Now, tell me again that I was 'rude'. For getting
upset.
And now that I know the 'apology' was encouraged by an outside source rather
than from within, whatever value it had is greatly reduced.
In this special case, I'm not going to apologise for being 'rude' to someone
I see as having been rude enough to earn that rude response.
I accepted the apology. That was supposed to be private between us. Yet, as
you have in the past when you disagreed with someone's email, you've made it
public.
How sadly predictable. I was hoping past indiscretions of this sort were
flukes. You've convinced me theyt aren't.
Be well, Katie.
Katie McN
So far this is the most sensible post in this thread IMHO. Thanks
Reed!
--
Katie McN
On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:48:03 GMT, you might have said:
<edit>
>
>I strongly suggest you and anyone else who doesn't like to hear viewpoints
>that don't blindly follow the pack...
>
>Kill filter me.
>
Done.
Lisala
Anon...@aol.com (Anne747) wrote:
> My suggestion is that individual archive sites should be doing this
> .before. they post. And violators caught doing it once, should be
> expected to do something to prove they aren't still doing it.
Anne, I well understand your anger.
It is justified.
But there's a problem.
Legally, if Rey or any other site host service provider starts either
checking each story for posting rights, or requiring content providers
to check, if something is posted in error, then Rey/ASSTR is legally
liable, no matter how careful the people have been in their efforts to
post only legit filed.
It's unreasonable, but that is the way the laws work.
Rey is doing the right thing; if an author or rights holder notifies
him, he will take care of the problem.
But asking ASSTR or site collectors to check makes those individuals
liable.
The nature of the net is such that violations are going to happen.
If you can't cope with that, then your stories will be a loss, and your
and their absence will be regretted.
--
Digital medievalist |http://www.digitalmedievalist.com
My opinions are my own. | Who else would want them?
Katie McN
Peter Knutsen
Lisala wrote:
> But asking ASSTR or site collectors to check makes those individuals
> liable.
Didn't Anne suggest something about ASSTR branding some archivists
as "problem people" and subjecting them to intense scrutiny? The
assumption should be that an archivist is honest, but as soon as
one complaint is filed against that one archivist, and if the
complaint turns out to be correct, then the archivist is placed
on a "grey list" and must prove his or her right to archive each
and every posting in the collection, or else loose the right to
host the collection on www.asstr.org.
--
Peter Knutsen
Lisala
Peter Knutsen <pe...@knutsen.dk> wrote:
> Didn't Anne suggest something about ASSTR branding some archivists
> as "problem people" and subjecting them to intense scrutiny? The
> assumption should be that an archivist is honest, but as soon as
> one complaint is filed against that one archivist, and if the
> complaint turns out to be correct, then the archivist is placed
> on a "grey list" and must prove his or her right to archive each
> and every posting in the collection, or else loose the right to
> host the collection on www.asstr.org.
I know it sounds like a smart solution.
But it isn't. It is time consuming and it then makes ASSTR responsible
for verifying legitimacy. That is not a good thing.
If ASSTR adheres to the DMCA, which it does, it can both protect rights
holders and itself. Copyright places the onus on the rights holder. It
always has. Shoudl a rights holder contact ASSTR, then the correct steps
are taken, according to the DMCA. See the policy here:
http://www.asstr.org/terms.html
The policy is clear, reasonable, and in accordance with the law.
Moreover, ASSTR has neither the time nor the finances to "scrutiny" as
you suggest. The admins and moderators et al are unpaid. It is not
reasonable to ask them to engage in more unpaid work.
Hecate
<pinat...@bigplanet.com> wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>make hot chocolate. :)
>
Nice idea. And while we're at it, perhaps some of the people in this
thread would like to continue on alt.flame?
Hecate
How can you tell a tough lesbian bar?
Even the pool table doesn't have balls
heca...@excite.co.uk
ICQ:59088833
Frank McCoy
>As currently set up, I cannot post to *usenet* via ASSM and expect my work to
>stay off of ASSTR. ASSTR is NOT ASSM. It supports the moderation center for
>the newsgroup. I'd like to be able to not use the x-no archive flag and
>allow my work to stay *on the news servers* but I cannot do so because that
>usenet feature has been used for the convenience of ASSTR to keep stories off
>their *web* site.
Excuse me?
I fail to see your logic here.
ASSM is a SERVICE provided by ASSTR.
And the X-NO-ARCHIVE flag is just that ... a flag that newsservers and
other people (like ASSTR) can (if they want to) use to check to see if
the originator wants them to archive the posts.
That the default happens to be opt-out, instead of opt-in, is just the
way usenet was set up. Before people started using and honoring the
flag, posts were kept or archived by various people as they felt like
it. Even today, most readers (like me) archive stories they like,
without regard to the x-no-archive flag. After all, if they like the
story, they don't want to go back to the newsserver and find out it's
expired!
The X-NO-ARCHIVE flag has NOTHING to do with expiration of stories on
a newsserver, unless the server keeps ALL stories ... like ASSM does.
So most newsservers just don't bother to pay attention to the flag.
Why should they?
And the point is:
What do you think the flag is FOR, anyway?
Obviously you misunderstand it's use.
It's intended only, repeat ONLY, repeat ***ONLY*** for archivers like
ASSM ... so that THEY will have something to check and see if people
don't want their posts archived. That the flag happens to be
default-off, instead of default-on, is just the way things work ...
and *usually* the way most people want it. Because *most* posters to
ass, assm, and in general ass* WANT their stories to be available in
public archives. Especially since the stories expire rather quickly
on most newsservers. Having a common place to go (Like Deja.com or
ASSTR) to retrieve otherwise missed stories, is a blessing ... to both
authors and readers.
I say authors, because it can be a PAIN to continually have to send or
redirect requests for reposts of stories. I don't have to explain
readers, I think.
And opting-out by using the x-no-archive flag (it seems to me) does
EXACTLY what you want it to ... Places like ASSTR and Deja.com honor
the flag, and DON'T archive posts with that in it, while almost every
OTHER type of service ignores the flag completely.
So ... could you PLEASE explain WHY using the flag would hurt? Or is
it that you WANT some archivers you like (like Deja.com) to archive
your story, while ones you dislike (like ASSTR) you don't?
I really can't see why you would want commercial servers to archive,
while a free, public-supported-one like ASSTR you don't. It just
doesn't make sense to me.
Now having objections to people who DON'T pay attention to the
x-no-archive flag, and who provide public access, THAT I can
understand. I can also understand not wanting PAY sites to make a
profit off your stories, when you can't.
Maybe that's the trouble? You see ASSTR as a pay-site (since they ask
for donations) while Deja.com isn't?
Methinks (as I said in the beginning) something is wrong with that
logic.
Just my opinion, of course.
--
_____
/ ' /
,-/-, __ __. ____ /_
(_/ / (_(_/|_/ / <_/ <_
Frank McCoy
Especially since the charter of the group EXCLUDES the moderators from
not posting any valid story. They are *NOT* authorized to check for
copyright violations or illegal material, or anything else they
disagree with. Essentially, assm is supposed to be ass with the spam
removed. Nothing more. The archives were added as a bonus; and any
poster can opt-out.
However, protecting copyright is the business of the writer, not the
newsserver (which in this case, asstr, working as assm, is). If you
don't like THAT idea, then stop posting to usenet. That's just the
way newsgroups work.
Frank McCoy
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>hi Stasya!
>
>"Stasya T. Canine" <sta...@unspam.storiesonline.net> wrote in message
>news:16dnats9tcbr42i9p...@4ax.com...
>> You did what far too many folks do. Automatically *assumed* that everyone
>> would go along with the idea ofhaving their work posted to ASSTR.
>
>In the games we've joined, Rui always asked if we wanted our story archived
>there. we said yes.
>
>we joined assd after asstr took over assm (if they took over. we don't
>understand how it works), so we've always just thought that if we posted to
>assm, it goes to asstr. and if we didn't want a story there we'd just post
>to another group.
>
Or ... use the x-no-archive flag, as it was intended to be used.
Or send it to them directly, and just ASK that it not be archived.
Me, I don't post to assm, but that's not the reason.
I don't post to assm, because I cross-post to a very specific set of
four newsgroups ... and if I include assm, it seems to propagate to
none of them.
And (for me) it's WAY too much trouble to make a separate post to assm
... especially as I would then always be wondering if it got posted
once or twice or no times to alt.sex.stories.
Katie McN
I notice that you posted several places in this thread and each one
makes more sense than the last. Thanks for joining in.
Mr Slot
chose to put into words the following :-
>On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:26:04 -0800, "celia batau"
><pinat...@bigplanet.com> wrote:
>
>>x-no-archive: yes
>>
>>make hot chocolate. :)
>>
>Nice idea. And while we're at it, perhaps some of the people in this
>thread would like to continue on alt.flame?
Okay, who are you and what have you done with Hecate?
; )
Frank McCoy
>I notice that you posted several places in this thread and each one
>makes more sense than the last. Thanks for joining in.
Ow.
That must mean my first post didn't make much sense. ;-}
Still, I guess as the mind gets worked-up to a subject, it gets better
at stating what should have been obvious at first.
Sometimes I come back days later, and wonder, "Now why didn't I think
to say it *THAT* way!" (This usually in response to somebody else
stating what I thought in 1/4 the words, with twice the
effectiveness.)
But thanks for the compliment.
Alexis Siefert
>Date: 3/11/01 5:22 PM Alaskan Standard Time
>Message-id: <3aaf2d01...@news.alt.net>
>
>x-no-archive: no>Frothed chocolate milk, with a tablespoon of almond-syrup, and
>whipped-cream over the top. Yum! ;-}
>
>Damn ... I think I'll go make some now.
>It makes a person feel loved.
rich, dark, deep melted hot chocolate thick as syrup, sprinkled with just a
touch of chili powder, topped with full-whipped cream...
Respectfully,
Alexis
"All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."
Oscar Wilde
dennyw...@zipcon.net
held forth, saying:
>So ... could you PLEASE explain WHY using the flag would hurt? Or is
>it that you WANT some archivers you like (like Deja.com) to archive
>your story, while ones you dislike (like ASSTR) you don't?
I'll explain this -- as Stasya is taking some time off from assd.
When one *reads* the ngs from deja (now Google), one never sees the
posts with 'x-no-archive:yes.' Stasya would like -- and so would I,
actually, a flag that says 'display this post for normal Usenet expire
time, but don't put it in a permanent archive.'
IOW, 'act like a news server, not like an archive.'
(the above was my wording of how I believe Stasya feels about it)
The other thing is a philosophical objection to opt-out archiving. I
know he'd prefer (he said this elsewhere in the thread) opt-IN
archiving. I know that would be harder--but it probably is do-able.
(I, btw, am all in favor of the ASSM archive, but I recognize that I'm
not an author, so my opinion is less relevant.)
-denny-
curmudgeon and editor
--
"What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)
Kenny N Gamera
wrote:
>>From: mcc...@millcomm.com (Frank McCoy)
>>Date: 3/11/01 5:22 PM Alaskan Standard Time
>>Message-id: <3aaf2d01...@news.alt.net>
>>
>>x-no-archive: no
>>
>>"celia batau" <pinat...@bigplanet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>>make hot chocolate. :)
>>>
>>Frothed chocolate milk, with a tablespoon of almond-syrup, and
>>whipped-cream over the top. Yum! ;-}
>>
>>Damn ... I think I'll go make some now.
>>It makes a person feel loved.
>
>rich, dark, deep melted hot chocolate thick as syrup, sprinkled with just a
>touch of chili powder, topped with full-whipped cream...
>
>
>Respectfully,
>Alexis
Hmmmm! Chili powder! I'll have to try that.
By the way, 2 tablespoons cocco (twice what Hershey says) 1 tablespoon
sugar (half) and cup milk. Now, I'll add a dash of chili powder.
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
turtle...@hotmail.com
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
<dennyw...@zipcon.net> wrote:
[...]
>I'll explain this -- as Stasya is taking some time off from assd.
>When one *reads* the ngs from deja (now Google), one never sees the
>posts with 'x-no-archive:yes.' Stasya would like -- and so would I,
>actually, a flag that says 'display this post for normal Usenet expire
>time, but don't put it in a permanent archive.'
What is a normal usenet expire time. Each server is diffrent, some
newsgroups are never expired outhers are expired within hours.
Betweent that the verity is amazing.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
>x-no-archive: no
>
>"celia batau" <pinat...@bigplanet.com> wrote:
>
>>x-no-archive: yes
>>
>>make hot chocolate. :)
>>
>Frothed chocolate milk, with a tablespoon of almond-syrup, and
>whipped-cream over the top. Yum! ;-}
>
>Damn ... I think I'll go make some now.
>It makes a person feel loved.
You know if hot chocolate if spilt could cause a nasty burn... *sigh*
sorry everyone.
M.T. Head
>Me, I don't post to assm, but that's not the reason.
>I don't post to assm, because I cross-post to a very specific set of
>four newsgroups ... and if I include assm, it seems to propagate to
>none of them.
That's because everything posted to ASSM gets crossposted to ASS, and only
to ASS.
Maybe that could get changed and the original Newsgroups-line could be
preserved as much as possible, but we'd have to stay out of other moderated
groups.
Does the majority here want ASSM to give up on the mandatory crossposts and
let the posters decide for themselves?
(CC to Rey)
M.T. Head
<sta...@unspam.storiesonline.net> wrote:
>As currently set up, I cannot post to *usenet* via ASSM and expect my work to
>stay off of ASSTR. ASSTR is NOT ASSM. It supports the moderation center for
>the newsgroup. I'd like to be able to not use the x-no archive flag and
>allow my work to stay *on the news servers* but I cannot do so because that
>usenet feature has been used for the convenience of ASSTR to keep stories off
>their *web* site.
This is simply not true. X-No-Archive is not a "usenet feature", it was
introduced by Dejanews especially for people who don't want to have their
posts archived. This is how it works, for *both* Deja/Google and ASSTR.
If you want to use Deja/Google like a 'normal' news server too, then that's
a problem between you and them. I'd suggest using another service for
everyday reading.
Jeff Zephyr
>Stasya T. Canine <sta...@unspam.storiesonline.net> wrote:
>
>>As currently set up, I cannot post to *usenet* via ASSM and expect my work to
>>stay off of ASSTR. ASSTR is NOT ASSM. It supports the moderation center for
>>the newsgroup. I'd like to be able to not use the x-no archive flag and
>>allow my work to stay *on the news servers* but I cannot do so because that
>>usenet feature has been used for the convenience of ASSTR to keep stories off
>>their *web* site.
>
>Excuse me?
>I fail to see your logic here.
>
>ASSM is a SERVICE provided by ASSTR.
>And the X-NO-ARCHIVE flag is just that ... a flag that newsservers and
>other people (like ASSTR) can (if they want to) use to check to see if
>the originator wants them to archive the posts.
>
>That the default happens to be opt-out, instead of opt-in, is just the
>way usenet was set up. Before people started using and honoring the
>flag, posts were kept or archived by various people as they felt like
>it. Even today, most readers (like me) archive stories they like,
>without regard to the x-no-archive flag. After all, if they like the
>story, they don't want to go back to the newsserver and find out it's
>expired!
The ASSM archive on ASSTR is just like any other usenet archive.
While ASSTR is also the moderating host for the newsgroup, its archive
is still just a news archive. That means it follows the usenet rules
-- all messages are archived, unless x-no-archive is used to block
that.
It is unfortunate that some commercial news services block posts
with x-no-archive on them, rather than displaying them but *not*
putting them into their permanent archives. But that isn't ASSTR's
fault.
ASSTR's ASSM archives are separate from the hosted sites, and the
policies for both are different. ASSM archives are handled as a
usenet archive (no editorial control, anything which is acceptable by
the moderators for ASSM goes on the archive -- unless the no-archive
flag is used). The other sites on ASSTR are separate things, and you
can deal with them as separate issues.
I think it is a good thing to have ASSM archived somewhere reliable.
I don't trust Deja/Google to work reliably as an archive, but do trust
ASSTR to try to keep the archive running. Not easy to do it for free,
on a non-commercial site, but they've been doing it and even
expanding.
If you don't want your stories out on usenet archives, the only way
to stop it is via x-no-archive. If you don't want stories on ASSM,
just don't post there. I don't see a specific problem with that. If
you *did* want to have your stories posted to ASSM but not archived on
ASSTR, yet be archived on other usenet archives, I imagine you could
ask for your specific stories to be pulled from the archives at ASSTR.
Jeff Zephyr
(aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:37:05 -0800, dennyw...@zipcon.net
><dennyw...@zipcon.net> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>
>>I'll explain this -- as Stasya is taking some time off from assd.
>>When one *reads* the ngs from deja (now Google), one never sees the
>>posts with 'x-no-archive:yes.' Stasya would like -- and so would I,
>>actually, a flag that says 'display this post for normal Usenet expire
>>time, but don't put it in a permanent archive.'
>
>What is a normal usenet expire time. Each server is diffrent, some
>newsgroups are never expired outhers are expired within hours.
>Betweent that the verity is amazing.
Normal is whatever the server uses as an expire time. I don't know
of a non-archive which doesn't have a measurable expire time, but I
have seen 6 months or 1 year as expire times (my own ISP is 90 to 180)
days on many groups, including this one at 120 (last I checked)).
For Deja and similar archives, if you use the x-no-archive:yes
header, it never appears on their servers at all. They have no
"current newsfeed" server, only an archiving server. There isn't a
provision for allowing a message to appear with a user specified
expire time, rather than a server selected time.
That leads to making things like Deja not so hot for news reading,
when the groups you are reading have popular posters who use that flag
to block archiving.
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:42:07 GMT, dfor...@zeta.org.au (David Formosa
>(aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:37:05 -0800, dennyw...@zipcon.net
>><dennyw...@zipcon.net> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>
>>>I'll explain this -- as Stasya is taking some time off from assd.
>>>When one *reads* the ngs from deja (now Google), one never sees the
>>>posts with 'x-no-archive:yes.' Stasya would like -- and so would I,
>>>actually, a flag that says 'display this post for normal Usenet expire
>>>time, but don't put it in a permanent archive.'
>>
>>What is a normal usenet expire time. Each server is diffrent, some
>>newsgroups are never expired outhers are expired within hours.
>>Betweent that the verity is amazing.
>
> Normal is whatever the server uses as an expire time. I don't know
>of a non-archive which doesn't have a measurable expire time, but I
>have seen 6 months or 1 year as expire times (my own ISP is 90 to 180)
>days on many groups, including this one at 120 (last I checked)).
Some ISPs rotate on a new articals push out the old basis. At the ISP
I was at aus.* was never expired, simmlerly for a number of other
groups I know of.
Conjugate
hot chocolate with a tablespoon of peppermint schnapps
mixed in. I'll try the almond flavoring, though.
Conjugate
Kenny N Gamera <turtle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dmfpat45q3d0i2oop...@4ax.com...
dennyw...@zipcon.net
held forth, saying:
> If
>you *did* want to have your stories posted to ASSM but not archived on
>ASSTR, yet be archived on other usenet archives, I imagine you could
>ask for your specific stories to be pulled from the archives at ASSTR.
Well, actually, you can always email a copy of it to ad...@asstr.org
with a request that it be archived. This would certainly be ok for a
story that was posted with x-no-archive:yes, and I'd think Rey would
have no problem with archiving stories that weren't posted to assm;
not clear they'd go in the assm archive, though.
There *is* a plan--not sure how long it will take, simply because
there are a lot of things being done--to implement a different way of
opting out of having assm posts archived. This would allow folk to
use x-no-archive:yes as a flag for DejaGoogle, and still have their
posts archived in the assm archive.
Kenny N Gamera
<conj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>All these sound great. My own favorite is plain, strong,
>hot chocolate with a tablespoon of peppermint schnapps
>mixed in. I'll try the almond flavoring, though.
>
>Conjugate
I used to do that in the good ole' days, but... now I will brew a cup
of peppermint tea and mix "Swiss Miss" into it. Almost (but not as)
good and no alcohol.
Hecate
<turtle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>By the way, 2 tablespoons cocco (twice what Hershey says) 1 tablespoon
>sugar (half) and cup milk. Now, I'll add a dash of chili powder.
>
Funny, I thought Hershey meant something else in American.........
;-)
Hecate
wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:59:49 +0000, Hecate <heca...@excite.co.uk>
>chose to put into words the following :-
>
>>On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:26:04 -0800, "celia batau"
>><pinat...@bigplanet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>>make hot chocolate. :)
>>>
>>Nice idea. And while we're at it, perhaps some of the people in this
>>thread would like to continue on alt.flame?
>
>Okay, who are you and what have you done with Hecate?
Nothing just pissed off with the flames, which, I might point out,
*you* started.
Yes, I'm annoyed with you.
Hecate
wrote:
>>From: mcc...@millcomm.com (Frank McCoy)
>>Date: 3/11/01 5:22 PM Alaskan Standard Time
>>Message-id: <3aaf2d01...@news.alt.net>
>>
>>x-no-archive: no
>>
>>"celia batau" <pinat...@bigplanet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>>make hot chocolate. :)
>>>
>>Frothed chocolate milk, with a tablespoon of almond-syrup, and
>>whipped-cream over the top. Yum! ;-}
>>
>>Damn ... I think I'll go make some now.
>>It makes a person feel loved.
>
>rich, dark, deep melted hot chocolate thick as syrup, sprinkled with just a
>touch of chili powder, topped with full-whipped cream...
>
>
Chili powder?????!!!!! Bleah! ;-)
Hecate
<conj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>All these sound great. My own favorite is plain, strong,
>hot chocolate with a tablespoon of peppermint schnapps
>mixed in. I'll try the almond flavoring, though.
>
Eeek! Why do all these p[eople want to ruin perfectly good chocolate.
The only thing worth adding to chocolate is *more* chocolate!
Frank McCoy
>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:22:22 GMT, mcc...@millcomm.com (Frank McCoy)
>held forth, saying:
>
>>So ... could you PLEASE explain WHY using the flag would hurt? Or is
>>it that you WANT some archivers you like (like Deja.com) to archive
>>your story, while ones you dislike (like ASSTR) you don't?
>
>I'll explain this -- as Stasya is taking some time off from assd.
>When one *reads* the ngs from deja (now Google), one never sees the
>posts with 'x-no-archive:yes.' Stasya would like -- and so would I,
>actually, a flag that says 'display this post for normal Usenet expire
>time, but don't put it in a permanent archive.'
>
>IOW, 'act like a news server, not like an archive.'
>
But that's what (x-no-archive: yes) DOES.
And that's how ASSTR treats it.
Deja.com is *ONLY* an archive, not really a proper newsserver (they
*do* have a newsserver, but they charge for it, like any other
server).
So ... let me see ... you're complaining that it's OK for Deja.com to
act like an archive, but not ASSTR? After all, people *CAN* use
ASSTR, just like Deja.com to get the posts from ASSM from.
Just *exactly* like.
Remember, (and I repeat) Deja.com *IS AN ARCHIVE*
That's why they honor the x-no-archive flag.
Real newsservers don't archive, they expire.
All posts that Deja.com gets are archived, except those with
x-no-archive: yes
If Deja.com, acting as a newsserver, choosed to pervert the meaning of
the x-no-archive flag, because it's easier not to carry posts at ALL,
then that's a problem with Deja.com, not a problem with ASSTR.
Why not take your complaint to THEM?
(Of course, their being a BIG company making money, might just
possibly be the reason?)
>(the above was my wording of how I believe Stasya feels about it)
>
>The other thing is a philosophical objection to opt-out archiving. I
>know he'd prefer (he said this elsewhere in the thread) opt-IN
>archiving. I know that would be harder--but it probably is do-able.
>
>(I, btw, am all in favor of the ASSM archive, but I recognize that I'm
>not an author, so my opinion is less relevant.)
>
--
Frank McCoy
But instead of compaining about how Deja misuses the archive flag by
acting in this manner, they complain when ASSTR uses it properly ...
because if the authors use it for what it was designed-for, it would
get lost.
The problem is, if they used a *NEW* flag (opt-in OR opt-out) then
Deja would probably misuse it in the EXACT SAME MANNER, and people
would (once again) complain that they can't use it, because of
"servers" like Deja.com.
Methinks (as I said before) something is wrong with that logic.
WHY do you guys direct your ire at the one archiving server that is
doing things the way they were designed for?
Frank McCoy
>>From: mcc...@millcomm.com (Frank McCoy)
>>Date: 3/11/01 5:22 PM Alaskan Standard Time
>>Message-id: <3aaf2d01...@news.alt.net>
>>
>>x-no-archive: no
>>
>>"celia batau" <pinat...@bigplanet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>>make hot chocolate. :)
>>>
>>Frothed chocolate milk, with a tablespoon of almond-syrup, and
>>whipped-cream over the top. Yum! ;-}
>>
>>Damn ... I think I'll go make some now.
>>It makes a person feel loved.
>
>rich, dark, deep melted hot chocolate thick as syrup, sprinkled with just a
>touch of chili powder, topped with full-whipped cream...
>
Chili powder?
Frank McCoy
>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:00:47 -0600, "Conjugate"
><conj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>All these sound great. My own favorite is plain, strong,
>>hot chocolate with a tablespoon of peppermint schnapps
>>mixed in. I'll try the almond flavoring, though.
>>
>Eeek! Why do all these p[eople want to ruin perfectly good chocolate.
>The only thing worth adding to chocolate is *more* chocolate!
>
>;-)
>
The almond syrup adds-back a delightfully "nutty" taste that normal
processing of cocoa beans removes when making into chocolate powder.
Don't overdo it though.
Alexis Siefert
perhaps an acquired taste, but it's addictive.
Rey del Sexo
<sta...@unspam.storiesonline.net> wrote:
>Authors are opting out of using a a service that does not give them the
>control they wish.
Can you please elaborate (either here or via email) the
control you wish to have that you don't feel you do?
>...
>As currently set up, I cannot post to *usenet* via ASSM and expect my work to
>stay off of ASSTR. ASSTR is NOT ASSM. It supports the moderation center for
All you need do is put X-No-Archive: yes as the first line of
your post and we automatically add the x-no-archive _header_ for you.
This fact may not have been in the FAQ, but I know I mentioned it here
before (albeit only once in all likelihood)
>...
>allow my work to stay *on the news servers* but I cannot do so because that
>usenet feature has been used for the convenience of ASSTR to keep stories off
>their *web* site.
Huh? You've completely lost me.
>...
>I want to end the relationsip, but I cannot because ASSTR has made it
>impossible for me to do so if I wish to post to ASSM, which, by all rights,
>should be completely isolated from the services ASSTR provides as a web host.
Again I'm in a state of utter confusion. If you post to ASSM,
your post has to go through the moderation center at ASSTR. That's a
fact that is both insignificant (i.e. why does it matter if it goes
through an ASSTR based service or someone else) and also unavoidable
(i.e. it's a moderated newsgroup so the moderation needs to take place
somewhere) If you add X-No-Archive: yes in the header or as the
first line of your post, we don't archive the post, period. Once it's
posted to ASSM and crossposted to ASS, it is deleted from any and all
ASSTR servers. I don't understand what more control you could
possibly want that you get with posting to the newsgroups any other
way? Name it and we'll do our best to give it to you.
- Rey del Sexo
Rey del Sexo
>...
>When one *reads* the ngs from deja (now Google), one never sees the
>posts with 'x-no-archive:yes.' Stasya would like -- and so would I,
>actually, a flag that says 'display this post for normal Usenet expire
>time, but don't put it in a permanent archive.'
Can you verify that I'm understanding this correctly? What
I'm getting, I think, is a request for a feature that allows a work to
be archived at ASSTR or Deja, etc. for a certain period of time and
then automatically expired/deleted/removed? If so, that's technically
feasible to do w/ respect to ASSTR's archiving but not necessarily
with Deja/Google/other usenet archives. Also, I don't see how failure
to be able to set such an expiry period is grounds for not posting to
ASSM at all. This seems illogical to me. "I can't control how long
my post stays on the archive sites, and since I don't want it to not-
not appear on them at all, I'm not going to post to ASSM at all." Why
not just use the x-no-archive: yes header and not worry about the
archives is that's (ultimately) one's desire? I fail to see the logic
in having an expiration.
>IOW, 'act like a news server, not like an archive.'
There's no set time news servers expire posts though. That's
what makes the entire copyright issue surrounding usenet so cloudy, at
least in my mind. If "one" is a news server, there's nothing that
says how long one can archive a post. There's nothing that says one
can't charge for access. There's nothing that says one can't filter
out spam for one's subscribers. There's nothing that says what groups
one has to carry. There's nothing that says one can't make one's news
server accessible via the web. Pretty soon it gets confusing exactly
what "one" can and can't then do with usenet posts as far as making
them available via a web site, FTP site, or whatever else is popular
at the time. As far as I know, there's no legal precedent, etc. that
gives a guide to this sort of thing.
- Rey del Sexo
Rey del Sexo
wrote:
>Me, I don't post to assm, but that's not the reason.
>I don't post to assm, because I cross-post to a very specific set of
>four newsgroups ... and if I include assm, it seems to propagate to
>none of them.
>
>And (for me) it's WAY too much trouble to make a separate post to assm
>... especially as I would then always be wondering if it got posted
>once or twice or no times to alt.sex.stories.
Frank,
First off a word of thanks for helping explain how we (and
deja) use the X-No-Archive header. I'm still confused as to exactly
what Stasya wants, so I hope someone can provide some clarification
either here or via email at some point.
As for the crossposting, here's how that works (Denny, if
you're paying attention, this should be in the FAQ)
We strip off any/all newsgroups: headers and add our own which
consists of ASSM and ASS. If you want to post to other groups, simply
crosspost to them when you post to ASSM (i.e. you need to post using
your news reader software, not by emailing the post to ASSTR directly)
When you send your post, it will be immediately posted to the
groups you specified except for ASSM. Once it gets approved, it will
be posted to ASSM and ASS.
I hope that clears things up. Again, to get your works
posted to ASSM, ASS, and whatever other groups you want, post them to
ASSM and the other groups aside from ASS. Your works will immediately
appear in those other groups and will appear in ASSM and ASS as soon
as the work is approved.
- Rey del Sexo
Rey del Sexo
wrote:
>Does the majority here want ASSM to give up on the mandatory crossposts and
>let the posters decide for themselves?
We can't do this because of other moderated groups. If
someone crossposts to another moderated group, we'd need to post the
message as two separate posts - one to ASSM with the moderation
control headers and one to the moderated newsgroup without them so
that it would make it to the other moderated group's
moderator/moderation center.
As I explained to Frank, though, crossposting to groups
including ASSM is simple: post your message to ASSM via your news
reader, and crosspost it to all the other groups you wish to post to
except for alt.sex.stories. When you send your post, it will
immediately appear on the groups aside from ASS and ASSM (well, not
necessarily immediately, but you get the idea)
Once it's approved at the assm mod center, it will be posted
to ASSM and ASS.
Is there a problem with this method? (aside from the mandatory
crossposting to ASS which needs to be addressed)
- Rey del Sexo
Virtual Adept
"Rey del Sexo" <ad...@asstr.nospam.org> wrote in message
news:5ngratcv4ondau14n...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:14:10 GMT, "M.T. Head" <mth...@nym.alias.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Does the majority here want ASSM to give up on the mandatory crossposts
and
> >let the posters decide for themselves?
>
> We can't do this because of other moderated groups. If
> someone crossposts to another moderated group, we'd need to post the
> message as two separate posts - one to ASSM with the moderation
> control headers and one to the moderated newsgroup without them so
> that it would make it to the other moderated group's
> moderator/moderation center.
An idea, perhaps. How about a set list of groups available for
crossposting? That way the posters have more control over where it goes,
but you don't have to worry about it going to moderated groups or whatever.
All groups except ASSM itself would be optional, not mandatory or
unavailable. Any problems with this other than the work required and
needing a new flag for it?
--
The Apprentice
"Angels, lend me your might
Forfeit all my lives to get just one right"
- Fuel
Kenny N Gamera
wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:22:36 -0500, Kenny N Gamera
><turtle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>By the way, 2 tablespoons cocco (twice what Hershey says) 1 tablespoon
>>sugar (half) and cup milk. Now, I'll add a dash of chili powder.
>>
>Funny, I thought Hershey meant something else in American.........
>
>;-)
>
>Hecate
It sometimes does, but,,. I meant the maker of fine chocolate, not the
stuff that...well...I won't say.
By the way, there is a town in Pennsylvania named Hershey (in fact
that is where Hershey invented the Hershey bar and they're still made
there), but there are surprisingly no highways leading there (at least
by name)
M.T. Head
wrote:
> As I explained to Frank, though, crossposting to groups
>including ASSM is simple: post your message to ASSM via your news
>reader, and crosspost it to all the other groups you wish to post to
>except for alt.sex.stories. When you send your post, it will
>immediately appear on the groups aside from ASS and ASSM (well, not
>necessarily immediately, but you get the idea)
Um, sorry Rey, but this is not how it works. When you crosspost to a
moderated group, the post gets forwarded to the moderator. Period.
No second article will appear in the other unmoderated groups unless you
send one. (At least if the news server is set up correctly.)
So the poster would need to post one article to ASSM and another copy of it
to the other groups except ASSM and ASS.
dennyw...@zipcon.net
<ad...@asstr.nospam.org> held forth, saying:
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:37:05 -0800, dennyw...@zipcon.net wrote:
>
>>...
>>When one *reads* the ngs from deja (now Google), one never sees the
>>posts with 'x-no-archive:yes.' Stasya would like -- and so would I,
>>actually, a flag that says 'display this post for normal Usenet expire
>>time, but don't put it in a permanent archive.'
Sorry, my bad. I was (in the bit above) talking about why one can't
read news properly from Gooja.
>
> Can you verify that I'm understanding this correctly? What
>I'm getting, I think, is a request for a feature that allows a work to
>be archived at ASSTR or Deja, etc. for a certain period of time and
>then automatically expired/deleted/removed?
Nope. ASSTR/the ASSM archive doesn't pretend to be a source for
reading newsgroups. Nor, IMO, should it.
>>IOW, 'act like a news server, not like an archive.'
Again, this was meant more toward Gooja/Degle -- personally, I always
thought deja should have set up the x-no-archive such that a post with
it vanished after a week or two. IOW, let it be a flag that says
'expire me' rather than one that says 'don't show me at all'.
The ASSM archive is a different thing. I know, as do most who've been
around a while, that Eli set it up as opt-out (was the opting out
available from the beginning? this, I don't know)
I'm in favor of archiving the stories posted to ASSM -- though for the
stories from authors with an ASSTR website, it's duplication--but also
I'm in favor of a 'filter' method of opting out of the archive.
dennyw...@zipcon.net
<ad...@asstr.nospam.org> held forth, saying:
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:26:53 GMT, Stasya T. Canine
><sta...@unspam.storiesonline.net> wrote:
>
>>Authors are opting out of using a a service that does not give them the
>>control they wish.
>
> Can you please elaborate (either here or via email) the
>control you wish to have that you don't feel you do?
I can't address this -- if you emailed Stasya with this, I'm sure he
will.
>>...
>>allow my work to stay *on the news servers* but I cannot do so because that
>>usenet feature has been used for the convenience of ASSTR to keep stories off
>>their *web* site.
>
> Huh? You've completely lost me.
Referring to the 'x-no-archive' and its effect at
Gooja/Degle/GoogleDeja (henceforth Gooja). If he puts the
x-no-archive header on, to stop ASSM's archive from storing the post,
it also stops Gooja from even displaying it. That's what I meant in
my other post about acting like a news server instead of an archive.
(meaning Gooja--which really is an archive but has always claimed to
be a news provider with no expiry)
Another reason that it's bad for ASSM to use 'x-no-archive' as its
'please don't archive' flag: There may well be folk who would like
their stories archived at ASSM, but NOT at Gooja. If ASSM has its own
flag and doesn't use x-no-archive at all, they can do that.
Rui Jorge
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:52:41 -0800, Lisala <lis...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>In article <qcrqatob5hfp36pl7...@4ax.com>,
> Hecate <heca...@excite.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The only thing worth adding to chocolate is *more* chocolate!
>
>Or Coffee <g>
Yuck! I hate cofee mixed with chocolate. :0)
Rui Jorge
rj...@my-deja.com
ICQ 16515722
ASS HAll of Fame - http://www.asstr.org/~ASSHoF/
All-Time Favourite Stories List - http://www.asstr.org/~Rui_Favorites/
Golden Clitorides Awards - http://www.asstr.org/~Rui_Favorites/Clitorides/
Write Club - http://www.asstr.org/~Rui_Favorites/Write_Club/
Iron Writer - http://www.asstr.org/~Rui_Favorites/Iron/
Rui Jorge
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:46:02 +0000, Hecate <heca...@excite.co.uk>
wrote:
>Eeek! Why do all these p[eople want to ruin perfectly good chocolate.
>The only thing worth adding to chocolate is *more* chocolate!
Yup! That's true! :0)
Jeff Zephyr
wrote:
>just a tiny bit of really good, really fresh, sweet chili powder... it's
>perhaps an acquired taste, but it's addictive.
Lots of things can go into cocoa or coffee or tea. If you don't try
it, you won't know what things make it taste nicer.
--
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
Rey del Sexo
wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:55:05 -0500, Rey del Sexo <ad...@asstr.nospam.org>
>wrote:
>
>> As I explained to Frank, though, crossposting to groups
>>including ASSM is simple: post your message to ASSM via your news
>
>Um, sorry Rey, but this is not how it works. When you crosspost to a
>moderated group, the post gets forwarded to the moderator. Period.
Ah, I stand corrected. In this case we'll have to look into
something else, perhaps like what Vulpine suggested (having a list of
allowed groups in which to crosspost)
- RdS
Seamus
ad...@asstr.nospam.org (Rey del Sexo) wrote in
<o8eratc346499e43m...@4ax.com>:
> Can you please elaborate (either here or via email) the
>control you wish to have that you don't feel you do?
>
>
Rey
As I understand it (and I miss a lot of posts so I might be wrong)
Stasya said he wanted a way to post to ASSM and have it archived on deja
but not archived on ASSTR.
As he said this just before he announced that he wouldn't be posting here
anymore this may be a rather academic discussion.
Nobody else seems to think this is desirable however a theoretical
discussion of how this might be done has sprung up.
hope that helps.
Seamus
Seamus
> When you send your post, it will be immediately posted to the
>groups you specified except for ASSM. Once it gets approved, it will
>be posted to ASSM and ASS.
>
>
With {ASSM} added to the subject header
Seamus
dennyw...@zipcon.net
forth, saying:
>>> The only thing worth adding to chocolate is *more* chocolate!
>>
>>Or Coffee <g>
>
>Yuck! I hate cofee mixed with chocolate. :0)
umm... is it the desecration of the chocolate, or of the coffee that
bothers you?
(a fan of mochas, myself)
dennyw...@zipcon.net
<ad...@asstr.nospam.org> held forth, saying:
>As for the crossposting, here's how that works (Denny, if
>you're paying attention, this should be in the FAQ)
Well, I am--but see MT Head's comments-- and from what I've read
elsewhere, he's right. Send a post to ass, assi, alt.flame, and assm,
it will go only to assm's moderation address.
dennyw...@zipcon.net
(Always Horny) held forth, saying:
>dennyw...@zipcon.net wrote:
>
>>I'll explain this -- as Stasya is taking some time off from assd.
>>When one *reads* the ngs from deja (now Google), one never sees the
>>posts with 'x-no-archive:yes.' Stasya would like -- and so would I,
>>actually, a flag that says 'display this post for normal Usenet expire
>>time, but don't put it in a permanent archive.'
>
>Denny,
First: realize that I was attempting to convey *Stasya's* views
mainly.
>
>There is no such thing as "normal Usenet expire time". It just does not exist.
I know. But Gooja (Google-Deja) could easily enough change the
'x-no-archive' flag's meaning to 'display the post for 1 month, then
remove it' -- 30 days would be a reasonable time.
While there is no 'normal' expiry, there surely is a mean. Which
could be determined if one cared to.
>A few months ago I already explained that IMO there is no difference between a
>usenet server and website archive. At least the difference is so blurred that it
>could not be used in front of a court. (it's not the protocol, it's not the
>duration, it's not the medium. It's purely the user's perception --and some
>marketing manipulation thereof. All bollocks IMO).
All of this is indeed your opinion. A court would no doubt disagree.
>>The other thing is a philosophical objection to opt-out archiving. I
>>know he'd prefer (he said this elsewhere in the thread) opt-IN archiving.
>
>Denny, old chum. Let's be practical. Just for 2 minutes. Reality is, we all do
>practice opt-IN. It is called posting.
No. See Mat's comments on the essentially ephemeral nature of Usenet.
Also see (past threads) the laws regarding copyright. This post, fex,
is *mine*. I am the only one who has the right to control its
copying/archiving. By posting to the Usenet, I give (implicit)
permission for the machines which propagate the newsgroup to transmit
it to one another, and for users to download and read it. I do *not*
give blanket permission to (fex) print copies and distribute them.
The permission to propagate where the Usenet goes is not the same as
permission for a user to do what heesh will. Nor is it the same as
permission for Gooja and its like to store the post permanently.
Since I have no objection (currently) to Gooja's storing my words, I
don't take the trouble to block it. Should I develop a reason (like
the trick Remarq tried of linking keywords in posts to ads), I would
require Gooja to remove all my posts, and block their archiving them
in future.
>Remember the comparison "so, lady, you left your Cadillac all night in the bad
>part of town, with doors unlocked and engine on? and you're surprised at what
>happened? yeah right". It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of
>knowing what imperfect world we live in, and what the consequences of our acts
>will be. And of taking responsibility for it. Rant on, AH, they're interested.
comparison is not remotely valid, and you know it.
>(Quasi philosophic note, not really relevant to the above: I know only one
>country where you can actually leave your car on in the street. That's Saudi
>Arabia. They do it to keep the aircon on. And if is SAFE to do so.
Ain't very safe for the people who want to breathe there.
mme...@steinbeck.ucs.indiana.edu
<dennyw...@zipcon.net> wrote:
>
>The permission to propagate where the Usenet goes is not the same as
>permission for a user to do what heesh will. Nor is it the same as
>permission for Gooja and its like to store the post permanently.
I have to disagree. In my opinion, it is exactly the same as
permission for Gooja to store the post permanently. Gooja is not
technically distinguishable from a newsserver with a very long expire
time. I see "X-no-archive" as a courtesy they invented and nothing
else. The structure of Usenet does not maintain a finite expire time.
--Mark
--
Mark Meiss (mme...@indiana.edu) 812/331-1686 / Disciple of Loki and
http://borg.uits.indiana.edu/~mmeiss/ / Fomenter of Entropy
IPCRES Network Group Lead Application Developer /-----------------------------
Wanna-be Author of Novels and Short Fiction / What fools these normals be.
Frank McCoy
>On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:48:50 -0500, Rey del Sexo
><ad...@asstr.nospam.org> held forth, saying:
>
>>As for the crossposting, here's how that works (Denny, if
>>you're paying attention, this should be in the FAQ)
>
>Well, I am--but see MT Head's comments-- and from what I've read
>elsewhere, he's right. Send a post to ass, assi, alt.flame, and assm,
>it will go only to assm's moderation address.
>
>-denny-
>curmudgeon and editor
That's what happened to me, one time.
Another time, it simply vanished into a black-hole.
Never appeared anywhere.
So, I gave up.
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
>On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:12:40 +0100, Always...@no.spam.thanks
>(Always Horny) held forth, saying:
[...]
>>Denny, old chum. Let's be practical. Just for 2 minutes. Reality is, we all do
>>practice opt-IN. It is called posting.
>
>No. See Mat's comments on the essentially ephemeral nature of
>Usenet.
However Usenet has never been a tottally ephemeral thing. There are
nettiquite files dateing back to the beginning on usenets existence
that warn that what you say will be logged.
>Also see (past threads) the laws regarding copyright. This post, fex,
>is *mine*. I am the only one who has the right to control its
>copying/archiving. By posting to the Usenet, I give (implicit)
>permission for the machines which propagate the newsgroup to transmit
>it to one another, and for users to download and read it.
You basically give implicit permition for whatever is normal to happen
to a usenet post to happen. Now if you look at the standards and all
the technicall documents there is nothing that requires posts to be
epixired. Indeed the closest thing is the "expire:" tag and that
isn't required to be honored, infact many people don't due to abuse.
> I do *not*
>give blanket permission to (fex) print copies and distribute them.
What about doom binder style printing?
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.
Mr Slot
put into words the following :-
>I know. But Gooja (Google-Deja) could easily enough change the
>'x-no-archive' flag's meaning to 'display the post for 1 month, then
>remove it' -- 30 days would be a reasonable time.
>
>While there is no 'normal' expiry, there surely is a mean. Which
>could be determined if one cared to.
Sure, if Usenet only consisted of a few story groups. But it doesn't
and that's what a lot of people seem to forget. ASS* is just a tiny
little speck in the ocean that is Usenet. No one is going to change
how such a monolith works simply because a few authors want their
stories to receive some sort of special privilege.
In other words, if you want play in such a big field, you have to play
by their rules, not your own. It just won't work.
Mr Slot
Writers never lie.
They tell the truth from a different perspective.
Rey del Sexo
>
>As he said this just before he announced that he wouldn't be posting here
>anymore this may be a rather academic discussion.
>
>Nobody else seems to think this is desirable however a theoretical
>discussion of how this might be done has sprung up.
Seamus,
Your explanation indeed helped and is appreciated.
Mat has also requested something similar so we've come up with
some new headers that should accommodate everyone's desires. We'll be
announcing them as soon as testing is complete.
- Rey del Sexo
Rey del Sexo
<turtle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>By the way, there is a town in Pennsylvania named Hershey (in fact
>that is where Hershey invented the Hershey bar and they're still made
>there), but there are surprisingly no highways leading there (at least
>by name)
I grew up about 30 mins from there and have friends who worked
at the (amusement) park. It's a pretty cool place to visit, and the
park just keeps getting bigger and better (and more expensive to get
into) every year. It's worth a visit though if you've never been
there (be sure to get your free ride through Chocolate World where you
can also learn the catchy "Hershey Chocolate, Hershey Chocolate, it's
a Hershey's chocolate world... wherever you go, no matter how far,
you'll always be near, a Hershey Bar... " song. To the best of my
knowledge, they've never used it in ads, but it definitely has a very
catch tune.
As for the highways, Hershey Park Drive will take you right
into the park, the Hershey Bear's hockey rink, the stadium, etc. If
you plug in "Hershey Park Dr Hershey, PA" into mapquest it'll come
right up.
- RdS
See-El
> But it's very close to Intercourse, Pennsylvania, and you really don't
> want to be caught speeding in Intercours.
Pleasure is right down the road from Intercourse.
See-El
Conjugate
news:2001031405033...@nym.alias.net...
A friend who used to live in Michigan lived not far from
Interstate 69. There is in Michigan a town called Ecstasy.
She felt that it was too bad you couldn't get to Ecstasy by
69, but that was the decision that the engineers had made.
Conjugate
Uther Pendragon
Rey del Sexo <ad...@asstr.nospam.org> writes:
> As for the crossposting, here's how that works (Denny, if
> you're paying attention, this should be in the FAQ)
>
Rey doesn't mean what we normally mean by "crossposting" on
Usenet.
> We strip off any/all newsgroups: headers and add our own which
> consists of ASSM and ASS.
CORRECT!
Which means that the post (or e-mail) which goes to ASSM *only*
goes to ASSM and ASS. And it goes to ASS whether you've sent
something else to ASS or not.
> If you want to post to other groups, simply
> crosspost to them when you post to ASSM (i.e. you need to post using
> your news reader software, not by emailing the post to ASSTR directly)
>
NO!
That won't work.
What you need to do is to post once to ASSM (or mail it) and post
another time to all the groups except ASSM and ASS.
I use these obsolescent programs which will do what you tell them
to instead of what Billy wants you to do. So I can't tell you
how to do this easily in the modern programs.
OTOH, if you can use mail...@nym.alias.net, you can send e-mail
to there with a copy to story-submit. Put all the NG headers
EXCEPT ASSM and ASS in the headers.
If the last paragraph doesn't make sense, it probably doesn't
work with the disabled software on your ISP.
--
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c
anon...@nyx.net fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
"Uther is perfectly correct." Hecate
dennyw...@zipcon.net
(aka ? the Platypus)) held forth, saying:
>> I do *not*
>>give blanket permission to (fex) print copies and distribute them.
>
>What about doom binder style printing?
Ah yes. (I am not an author, so my viewpoint may not reflect that of
any author)
I see no problem with printing out a post for one's personal use, said
use being similar to how one uses a book one has acquired. Namely,
read, lent to friends to read, etc. Note that this does not include
selling copies, or even giving copies away. I suspect that this is a
common view among writers. If it isn't, I betcha we hear about it.
dennyw...@zipcon.net
held forth, saying:
The black hole is likely a news provider that doesn't handle moderated
groups (or at least assm -- remember, it vanished from some servers
during its hiatus) properly.
As is known, I proof/edit for a number of writers--some of the time,
some of them have me also post their work (under their name of
course), and sometimes it just vanishes. Once, about a month ago, I
sent a post via usenet. Waited a couple hours, checking the
moderation center. Nothing. Sent it again, but by email. Same wait.
Nothing. Waited overnight. nope. Tried again. Showed up in 10 min.
I do wish you (Frank M) would post your stories to ASSM. I'm one who
believes they belong there.
Joyce Melton
>On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:16:47 GMT, dfor...@zeta.org.au (David Formosa
>(aka ? the Platypus)) held forth, saying:
>
>>> I do *not*
>>>give blanket permission to (fex) print copies and distribute them.
>>
>>What about doom binder style printing?
>
>Ah yes. (I am not an author, so my viewpoint may not reflect that of
>any author)
>
>I see no problem with printing out a post for one's personal use, said
>use being similar to how one uses a book one has acquired. Namely,
>read, lent to friends to read, etc. Note that this does not include
>selling copies, or even giving copies away. I suspect that this is a
>common view among writers. If it isn't, I betcha we hear about it.
>
My copyright notices used to specifically forbid any hardcopies being
made or any copies to portable media, like floppies. I've dropped that
from later versions.
Joyce
Katie McN
On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:14:26 -0800, you might have said:
>On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:16:47 GMT, dfor...@zeta.org.au (David Formosa
>(aka ? the Platypus)) held forth, saying:
>
>>> I do *not*
>>>give blanket permission to (fex) print copies and distribute them.
>>
>>What about doom binder style printing?
>
>Ah yes. (I am not an author, so my viewpoint may not reflect that of
>any author)
>
>I see no problem with printing out a post for one's personal use, said
>use being similar to how one uses a book one has acquired. Namely,
>read, lent to friends to read, etc. Note that this does not include
>selling copies, or even giving copies away. I suspect that this is a
>common view among writers. If it isn't, I betcha we hear about it.
>
I completely agree with what you say here Denny. As it happens, Kivi
mentioned to me on ICQ that she had a folder of my stories she lent
out to people. She wanted to make sure that I thought it was okay
which of course I do. Your idea about lending books is a good metaphor
for this sort of thing. IMHO.
--
It's me! Your pal,
Katie McN <kati...@excite.com>
Read all my stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN
Frank McCoy
Maybe the next big repost.
I don't want to flood the groups, or post reposts too soon.
However, most of my stories *ARE* already in the assm archives.
Having them there 14 times doesn't do a lot.
Also, *ALL* of my stories are on ASSTR.
My primary mirror is there.