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Public <Anonymous_Account>
Whatever happened to the truly great detractors, like SAMOREZ, ALFIE, PAUL, BENJI, SWAMIMOCHA, VANESSA, JOHN, JTL, RAM3RAM, etc...etc...?
The only great one that still seems to be posting is Lurk.
[Snarky-Boy/Tim Blevins, Santa Clara, California]
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Sworddancer
defend, would prefer to move along.....but I must admit that I like to stop in here occassionally, just to see if your guys are all still at
it.....Yep..you are!
Is anyone in here actually new to eckankar?.....I'm certain that eckists don't give out this newsgroup info to the newbies!
I like talking to newcomers who want a straight look at eckankar, its plus sides and minus sides..and I like speaking to those who eckists
are truely curious and seeking truth...but I really don't need a pissing contest with some of the closed minded creatures who dwell in here,
and in the name of god, to boot (good grief).
By the way, you started your post with "Dear Ones"....did you know that this was Pauls greeting for his wisdom notes way back when?
A funnnier item was that in some of Pauls older writings, he used to sign off by saying in each article ..."I HAVE SPOKEN"......I got a kick
out of that one!
Enjoy the search.....
brian Fletcher
> Is anyone in here actually new to eckankar?.....
You by the sound of your comments.
From the arrogant comments you make below regarding what is true, and how
you hold yourself as some self appointed authirity figure, I would say you
are well qualified to speak the language of a newcomer.
I'm certain that eckists don't give out this newsgroup info to the newbies!
>
> I like talking to newcomers who want a straight look at eckankar, its plus
sides and minus sides..and I like speaking to those who eckists
> are truely curious and seeking truth...
Your arrogance knows no bounds.
but I really don't need a pissing contest with some of the closed minded
creatures who dwell in here,
> and in the name of god, to boot (good grief).
Then why piss into the wind?
> A funnnier item was that in some of Pauls older writings, he used to sign
off by saying in each article ..."I HAVE SPOKEN"......I got a kick
> out of that one!
>
Pity it missed the target!!!
Brian
Sworddancer
Justr curious here....Do you have a job?.....Seriously, I must see your name as
a poster here at least 20 times a day, probably more.....Where in the heck do
you get the time?
Is all of this your way of being a channel? Vahana? Seriously...is it?
Is all this some comfort to you or is it thereputical or something? Are you
fighting the Kal? Is it gratifying to engage in mental gymnastics with those
whom you do not agree with?
I'm interested in why an eckist, happy with his path, would spend so very much
time in a place where there is so much sentiment that goes against that path?
Its the same question I have seen you or others ask those whom you label as
"Trolls" (those who don't buy eckankar) here......Why are you here?
This is a serious question and I'd really appreciate an answer...you can send it
to me by e-mail if you want and I won't post any response here or on any pother
NG......
Have a nicer night.
Sorry I come off as an authority figure to you.....I was a 6th initiate and not
all of that H.I. ego shit ( usually disguised as false humility) has worn off
yet.....
brian Fletcher wrote:
> Swordswallower
>
> > Is anyone in here actually new to eckankar?.....
>
> You by the sound of your comments.
>
> From the arrogant comments you make below regarding what is true, and how
> you hold yourself as some self appointed authirity figure, I would say you
> are well qualified to speak the language of a newcomer.
>
> I'm certain that eckists don't give out this newsgroup info to the newbies!
>
> >
> > I like talking to newcomers who want a straight look at eckankar, its plus
> sides and minus sides..and I like speaking to those who eckists
> > are truely curious and seeking truth...
>
> Your arrogance knows no bounds.
>
Actually, I think you misunderstood me again....I said I like talking to those
who are seeking truth...I never said I had the truth to give them.....I'll leave
that to those who think they are on the ultimate path to god or who think they
are Higher Initiates....or that even H.I's exist.......I'll stick to just
talking and learning from those who are truely seeking. It sure beats
fighting.
> but I really don't need a pissing contest with some of the closed minded
> creatures who dwell in here,
> > and in the name of god, to boot (good grief).
>
> Then why piss into the wind?
>
> > A funnnier item was that in some of Pauls older writings, he used to sign
> off by saying in each article ..."I HAVE SPOKEN"......I got a kick
> > out of that one!
> >
> Pity it missed the target!!!
>
> Brian
Do you see the humility and the high degree of unfoldment in Brians answers and
comments here?....Look again....and again.....and again......still
looking?.......Well......perhaps some day, if you do your exercises you'll grow
to the point where you can see! :-)
Sworddancer
> comments here?....Look again....and again.....and again......still
> looking?.......Well......perhaps some day, if you do your exercises you'll grow
> to the point where you can see! :-)
Oh well...perhaps not.....some things are hopeless.....perhaps in your next
incarnation......
Or perhaps you were right the very first time you looked!
brian Fletcher
"Sworddancer" <brok...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3ACC21EF...@home.com...
> Hi Brian,
> Justr curious here....Do you have a job?.....Seriously, I must see your
name as
> a poster here at least 20 times a day, probably more.....Where in the heck
do
> you get the time?
I'm a man of independant means.
> Is all of this your way of being a channel? Vahana? Seriously...is it?
Why do writers write, singers sing? I think the best "new age" answer is ,
"breathing out".
> Is all this some comfort to you or is it thereputical or something? Are
you
> fighting the Kal? Is it gratifying to engage in mental gymnastics with
those
> whom you do not agree with?
I don't agree or disagree, just "contribute".Many find that
disagreeable.Usually they have a disagreeable disposition.
I guess a good question would be "why does anybody do anything"
One of the best descriptions I have seen re activity is on
www.operationterra.com. The latest post, regarding lasers.
> I'm interested in why an eckist, happy with his path, would spend so very
much
> time in a place where there is so much sentiment that goes against that
path?
I guess you should ask one. Eckist or not, breathing out is essential to
wellbeing. There are some who observe. I think I represent a view that
validates Eckankar, without being a member.
Those that post here that have generally "put it down". I see their reasons,
and have a view of them.
> Its the same question I have seen you or others ask those whom you label
as
> "Trolls" (those who don't buy eckankar) here......Why are you here?
I havn't asked, nor do I label people.
>
> This is a serious question and I'd really appreciate an answer...you can
send it
> to me by e-mail if you want and I won't post any response here or on any
pother
> NG......
Nothing to keep "under wraps" for me.
> Have a nicer night.
>
> Sorry I come off as an authority figure to you.....I was a 6th initiate
and not
> all of that H.I. ego shit ( usually disguised as false humility) has worn
off
> yet.....
I have never met anyone with that false humility, in the dozens I know. You
are typecasting me and my comments. I usually ask, or add.
Are you sorry because It hasn't worn off yet? Because you had it, you seem
to suggest that it is par for the course.
> brian Fletcher wrote:
>
> > > I like talking to newcomers who want a straight look at eckankar, its
plus
> > sides and minus sides..and I like speaking to those who eckists
> > > are truely curious and seeking truth...
> >
> > Your arrogance knows no bounds.
> >
>
> Actually, I think you misunderstood me again....I said I like talking to
those
> who are seeking truth...
You did say Eckists who are.
>I never said I had the truth to give them.....I'll leave
> that to those who think they are on the ultimate path to god or who think
they
> are Higher Initiates....
I see what you mean about false modesty.
>or that even H.I's exist.......I'll stick to just
> talking and learning from those who are truely seeking. It sure beats
> fighting.
Step outside and say that ;-)))....
I remember Michael Jackson, in a song saying "I'm a lover, not a fighter"
THATS why he left the Wrestling Federation ;-)
> > but I really don't need a pissing contest with some of the closed minded
> > creatures who dwell in here,
> > > and in the name of god, to boot (good grief).
> >
> > Then why piss into the wind?
> >
> > > A funnnier item was that in some of Pauls older writings, he used to
sign
> > off by saying in each article ..."I HAVE SPOKEN"......I got a kick
> > > out of that one!
> > >
> > Pity it missed the target!!!
> >
> > Brian
>
> Do you see the humility and the high degree of unfoldment in Brians
answers and
> comments here
On reflection, yes, actually.
Don't forget the humor.
...Look again....and again.....and again......still
> looking?.......Well......perhaps some day, if you do your exercises you'll
grow
> to the point where you can see! :-)
I hope you don't keep looking for many years. Go within.
Brian
brian Fletcher
Who are you talking to here. Things are never hopeless. They are just
"things".
Although "Things Aint What They Used To Be"
Brian
Michael
"brian Fletcher" <bri...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3acc356e$0$20...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
> Don't forget the humor.
I will second that...
>
> ...Look again....and again.....and again......still
> > looking?.......Well......perhaps some day, if you do your exercises
you'll
> grow
> > to the point where you can see! :-)
>
> I hope you don't keep looking for many years. Go within.
>
>
As far as i am concerned, he can go wherever <G>
SW is one of those little visitors that really don't have anything to say
that I find beneficial. Personally speaking, I find even Lurk manages to
come up with some pertinent points every now and then... But the tired
rhetoric of absolutism I have no use for.
I HAVE SPOKEN!
<G>
Love
Michael
cher
6th??? So then why are you devoid of Divine Love? Why are you so
completely ignorant of the spiritual laws of ECK? Why are you so
completely devoid of respect for other Souls. Why are you so Vain and
Self-absorbed? Where is your humility? How could you be so devoid of
light and sound... even if you did leave the path? Or is this part of your
delusion. This is obviously a gross manipulation of brian here.... a clear
meanness on your part... intentional meanness striking at brians heart. It
is most clear that you were never a true 6th, sir! You sir are a fraud and
a phoney!!!
Oh yes... and you posted 17 times yesterday! ;->
Ken
"cher" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote ...
>
> A 6th? You step into this space and declare you were a 6th publically?? A
> 6th??? So then why are you devoid of Divine Love? Why are you so
> completely ignorant of the spiritual laws of ECK? Why are you so
> completely devoid of respect for other Souls. Why are you so Vain and
> Self-absorbed? Where is your humility? How could you be so devoid of
> light and sound... even if you did leave the path? Or is this part of your
> delusion. This is obviously a gross manipulation of brian here.... a clear
> meanness on your part... intentional meanness striking at brians heart. It
> is most clear that you were never a true 6th, sir! You sir are a fraud and
> a phoney!!!
> Oh yes... and you posted 17 times yesterday! ;->
Dancerdude was a 6th!?!
OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ken
brian Fletcher
He also talks about his marshal arts prowess. Most probably a sixth there
also, at origami most probably. ;-)).
Thanks for your comments. Another tear '-).
Given that the most valuable aspect of this site, is for observers to be
encouraged on their next step, they get a pretty clear picture where they
belong.;-))
Brian
"cher" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3ACC6AF0...@worldnet.att.net...
> A 6th? You step into this space and declare you were a 6th publically?? A
> 6th??? So then why are you devoid of Divine Love? Why are you so
> completely ignorant of the spiritual laws of ECK? Why are you so
> completely devoid of respect for other Souls. Why are you so Vain and
> Self-absorbed? Where is your humility? How could you be so devoid of
> light and sound... even if you did leave the path? Or is this part of your
> delusion. This is obviously a gross manipulation of brian here.... a clear
> meanness on your part... intentional meanness striking at brians heart. It
> is most clear that you were never a true 6th, sir! You sir are a fraud and
> a phoney!!!
> Oh yes... and you posted 17 times yesterday! ;->
>
Sworddancer
Sworddancer
My My Cher.....that was a lot of questions...I'll go one at a time ok?
cher wrote:
> A 6th? You step into this space and declare you were a 6th publically?? A
> 6th???
Yep..but was only a 6th for about 4 years when I left....In 1998 or so...
> So then why are you devoid of Divine Love? Why are you so
> completely ignorant of the spiritual laws of ECK?
Heavens...that is certainly a large judgement for you to make...sure you're
qualified? And I know the "spiritual laws of eck...don't believe in a few of them
anymore and don't pay attention to the ones that have proven to be false teachings
issued for control purposes.....but I respect that you do believe and follow them, or
at least you probably think you do....I wish you luck and growth.
> Why are you so
> completely devoid of respect for other Souls.
Ho Hum....another assumption
> Why are you so Vain and
> Self-absorbed?
Possibly cause I was trained by masters, including eck masters for most of my life.
> Where is your humility?
I'm not very humble when I feel stepped on....Like Paulji once said:
"If a man strikes you, turn the other cheek. If He strikes you again,
Let him have it!"
Some folks here have hit me a few times and last night I just felt like hittting back
for a change. You guys will survive!
> How could you be so devoid of
> light and sound... even if you did leave the path?
Really, I don't feel blind or deaf....in fact, I see quite more clearly since leaving
that organization. I never left my path....never could, never will!
> Or is this part of your
> delusion.
Guilty....I think we are all delusional here if we believe any of this banter makes a
bit of difference in the divine scheme......
> This is obviously a gross manipulation of brian here.... a clear
> meanness on your part...
Well, Brian was a little mean to me as well, and He's a big boy who can fend for
himself and does so quite admirably.....I like to see folks stand for their
convictions but I really don't like parrots who repeat what is told to them without
absolute irrefutable experience to back it up.....A lot of eckists are that way...so
are a lot of people in general.
> intentional meanness striking at brians heart. It
> is most clear that you were never a true 6th, sir!
I agree..In fact, I can take that thought a bit further....There are NO TRUE 6th, 5ths
or any other level!.....The eck initiations are illusions played upon members by
"masters" who were appointed by thieves and frauds. The line of the vairagi was an
invention, not a reality, and claims to the otherwise have never been substantiated in
ANY imperically verifiable manner.
I'm still waiting for ANYONE to provide any substantial and IMPERICALLY VERIFIABLE
(meaning that it can be checked out and proven) PROOF that the Order of the Vairagi is
valid. I'd settle for any master except the lem to show up at a seminar....with ID of
course....or any historical record of this existance,...perhaps Sudars Birth
certificate, death certificate, or an employment record or two....or sworn testimony,
even though it would have to be quite old, that someone exept Paul Twitchell knew this
guy as a great master!.......I find it so strange that in 36 years since PT started
writing about eckankar, that there have been absolutely NO public appearences of any
other masters other than the living eck masters at any of the seminars, considering
that Paul, Harold and even Darwin stated many times that eckankar is out of the
closet,... so to speak.
I won't accept the old cliche' of "I saw him on the inner".....I see lots of stuff on
the inner and even got to a point where I could decide what I wanted to dream about,
and would dream about that issue that very night....Self Delusion is so easy...and
deluding others is easy too....and a lot of people who follow certain religions are
pretty deluded.....
> You sir are a fraud and
> a phoney!!!
I was.....then I learned....now I'm just seen that way by those who choose to see me
that way.....its a lot more comfy for some folks.....so be it.
> Oh yes... and you posted 17 times yesterday! ;->
yea, I know....that was kinda fun, but it was really late here and I had a little
time.....tonight I'm not gonna be so verbal.
Enjoy yourself Cher......and thanks for the comments.....Are you an eckist? If so,
you might try to be a little kinder to those who may not agree with your point of
view.....It would give your cause a bit more credibility.....
INoti
>VERIFIABLE
>(meaning that it can be checked out and proven) PROOF that the Order of the
>Vairagi is
>valid. I'd settle for any master except the lem to show up at a
>seminar....with ID of
>course....or any historical record of this existance,...perhaps Sudars Birth
>certificate, death certificate, o
The vast majority of eckists believe in the existence of eck masters chiefly
through eck literature. They came in contact with eck writings, their
imaginations were sparked, and from that came dreams and perhaps meditation
visions based on auto-suggestion. The same goes
for the reports of "outer manifestations," which have never been empirically
verified.
True, Kirpal Singh never gave credence to Paul's accounts viz.
inner meetings. I've read his correspondence with Paul on this matter. Paul,
however, is on record with statements about the high esteem with which he held
Kirpal Singh in the 1950's and early 60's. Paul in fact was an initiate and
devotee of Kirpal Singh during that period.
Kirpal Singh was a real being, i.e., proof exists he lived between 1894-1974.
Written proof exists that Paul cited Kirpal in much of his early writings (not
only the Tiger's Fang)--as a master. So also does written proof exist than
Paul excised the name "Kirpal" from these same writings, and same quotes, and
later published them with "Rebazar Tarzs" and the names of other masters in
place of "Kirpal," none of whom anyone has ever heard of before. Paul did the
same with the words of Julian Johnson and a score of other writers.
If this was done intentionally, which seems the most logical conclusion (I
don't follow how it could have been done unintentionally) then it brings the
authenticity of the "real beingness" of Twitchell's Rebazar Tarzs into serious
doubt, as well as the "beingness" of the other eck masters he wrote of.
There is no "supposedly" or "whether or not" in this matter. The evidence is
abundant and incontrovertable. While folks may differ about their spiritual
beliefs, there are things in this world that can be either proved or
disproved. That Paul plagiarized heavily from Julian Johnson (and many other
writers) has never been disproved. There is simply too much evidence. And
for the reasons I stated above, this has tremendous bearing on the reality of
R. Tarzs, and thus on the legitimacy of Paul's claim of mastership.
That Harold Klemp is a real being has never been in question.
Whatever is written or not written about him can't change that. Klemp can be
seen, heard, photographed, his birth is on record, etc. Klemp is empirically
real. Can the same be said of Rebazar Tarzs?
If eck masters have the ability to live indefinately (like Rebazar Tarzs) why
was Paul so short on time?
If eck masters continue in an unbroken chain of succession, and Paul knew (via
the eck vidya) that Darwin and Harold would follow him, again, why be in such a
hurry that it's necessary to critically compromise the eck teachings through
plagiarism?
While we don't know everything, it doesn't mean we don't know anything, or
can't reach any judgments based on facts.
We know from medical records that Twitchell died of a heart attack. What
brought this heart attack on is another matter. The poison rumor is just
that--to my knowledge there is no medical evidence to back it up.
People die, and usually there is no grand conspiracy or hidden meaning behind
their death.
To conclude: eckists may contend that eckankar is something that can't be
truly judged unless it's tried--"the proof of the pudding is in the tasting."
I'd agree; I was an active member of eckankar for 6 years. But the same holds
true for these criticisms of eckankar. Unless not only the allegations but the
evidence is reviewed and weighed--one source is Lane's The Making of a
Spiritual Movement--then can one move out from viewing all statements critical
of eckankar as mere opinion.
cher
to your opinions but they certainly are not set in stone for everyone
else. So read further:
INoti wrote:
>
> >I'm still waiting for ANYONE to provide any substantial and IMPERICALLY
> >VERIFIABLE
> >(meaning that it can be checked out and proven) PROOF that the Order of the
> >Vairagi is
> >valid. I'd settle for any master except the lem to show up at a
> >seminar....with ID of
> >course....or any historical record of this existance,...perhaps Sudars Birth
> >certificate, death certificate, o
>
> The vast majority of eckists believe in the existence of eck masters chiefly
> through eck literature. They came in contact with eck writings, their
> imaginations were sparked, and from that came dreams and perhaps meditation
> visions based on auto-suggestion. The same goes
> for the reports of "outer manifestations," which have never been empirically
> verified.
Odd thing to say... so very "skeptical" of you to speak for all ECKists in
this manner. I love the reference to meditation tho ... it adds to your
karma so clearly. :-) So again, we have an expert without first hand
experience. OOOOOh.... sign me up for this guys classes! HA! As if Sant
Mat was the path I'd chosen to follow in the firt place. Some religions
just don't understand the meaning of "spiritual truth".
> True, Kirpal Singh never gave credence to Paul's accounts viz.
> inner meetings. I've read his correspondence with Paul on this matter. Paul,
> however, is on record with statements about the high esteem with which he held
> Kirpal Singh in the 1950's and early 60's. Paul in fact was an initiate and
> devotee of Kirpal Singh during that period.
Again.... the standard ramblings of the old Kirpal connection. I don't
imagine you're the least bit interested inDougs most recent chapter of
"Dialogues..."? Probably not. :-/ But I find it infinitely interesting
that for all the smear documents about Paul on line, not once has this
correspondence by Kirpal been posted for all to see.
We do have Paul's own words concerning Kirpal, actually. And devotee is
hardly a term used to describe Paul Twitchell. Probably why Kirpal was so
irrational and immature about Paul. Hardly the behavior of a master... or
what one would expect from one, hey?
> Kirpal Singh was a real being, i.e., proof exists he lived between 1894-1974.
> Written proof exists that Paul cited Kirpal in much of his early writings (not
> only the Tiger's Fang)--as a master. So also does written proof exist than
> Paul excised the name "Kirpal" from these same writings, and same quotes, and
> later published them with "Rebazar Tarzs" and the names of other masters in
> place of "Kirpal," none of whom anyone has ever heard of before. Paul did the
> same with the words of Julian Johnson and a score of other writers.
Nope... we've already proven that Paul had other teachers than just
Kirpal! This arguement of david lanes... (verbetim, I might add!) is the
one deminsional process of a person being within Kirpals fold and seeing
the world as an attachment to that perspective. It's referred to as bias,
actually. No one here dismisses the use of materials from Julian Johnson
but this whole idea that the masters are just a psuedo for Kirpal is
rediculous!
> If this was done intentionally, which seems the most logical conclusion (I
> don't follow how it could have been done unintentionally) then it brings the
> authenticity of the "real beingness" of Twitchell's Rebazar Tarzs into serious
> doubt, as well as the "beingness" of the other eck masters he wrote of.
I take it you've never met Rabazar? That's too bad, really. You'd learn a
great deal if you did! Oh wait... I forgot! Because he doesn't exist, you
couldn't possibly meet him in the first place, right? ;-> There are many
other ECK Masters as well, but here you dismiss them as well so even
meeting them would be of no value to you. hmmm... so what are you doing
here on this group?
> There is no "supposedly" or "whether or not" in this matter. The evidence is
> abundant and incontrovertable. While folks may differ about their spiritual
> beliefs, there are things in this world that can be either proved or
> disproved. That Paul plagiarized heavily from Julian Johnson (and many other
> writers) has never been disproved. There is simply too much evidence. And
> for the reasons I stated above, this has tremendous bearing on the reality of
> R. Tarzs, and thus on the legitimacy of Paul's claim of mastership.
Leap to conclusions... interesting. And you are looking for proof? It
would appear that you also had DNA done to make sure you're mother gave
birth to you. <vbg's> Sorry... but skeptics are so fragile when it comes
to their religion... :-)
> That Harold Klemp is a real being has never been in question.
> Whatever is written or not written about him can't change that. Klemp can be
> seen, heard, photographed, his birth is on record, etc. Klemp is empirically
> real. Can the same be said of Rebazar Tarzs?
Ask Harold about Rabazar. :-) Seriously... ask him.
> If eck masters have the ability to live indefinately (like Rebazar Tarzs) why
> was Paul so short on time?
Because that was his time. Not all the ECK Masters have need to continue
with a physical connection to this plane. It isn't necessary to their
mission.
> If eck masters continue in an unbroken chain of succession, and Paul knew (via
> the eck vidya) that Darwin and Harold would follow him, again, why be in such a
> hurry that it's necessary to critically compromise the eck teachings through
> plagiarism?
Free will? See, you see the writings as a crucial point in your arguement
here... and that's a blind spot in your rationalizing. The teachings of
Eckankar were not critically compromised by Paul... they are alive and
well and selling pretty well too. :-)
> While we don't know everything, it doesn't mean we don't know anything, or
> can't reach any judgments based on facts.
The problem with facts is that like statistics they can say whatever you
would like for them to say when you add them to conclusions. And you know
what they say about conclusions: a conclusion is the place where you got
tired of thinking! :-) If science worked the way your logic does we'd
still be using 19th century treatments for illnesses. :-/ Don't confuse a
conclusion with fact... its a major league mistake of novices.
> We know from medical records that Twitchell died of a heart attack. What
> brought this heart attack on is another matter. The poison rumor is just
> that--to my knowledge there is no medical evidence to back it up.
Patti Simpson wrote about Paul's bout with the poisoning rather
effectively. You haven't read the account, I take it? Too bad. I doubt
that she lied to hold up the rumor... not like the lady to things like
that. And she worked with Paul very closely.
> People die, and usually there is no grand conspiracy or hidden meaning behind
> their death.
Well you know, here is where I agree with you! That's why I can't imagine
anyone carrying on about it after all this time! But again I look over the
messages to this group and only detractors are bringing it up.
Interesting. Perhaps you could contemplate on that? Oh, sorry... you
meditate, right?
> To conclude: eckists may contend that eckankar is something that can't be
> truly judged unless it's tried--"the proof of the pudding is in the tasting."
> I'd agree; I was an active member of eckankar for 6 years. But the same holds
> true for these criticisms of eckankar. Unless not only the allegations but the
> evidence is reviewed and weighed--one source is Lane's The Making of a
> Spiritual Movement--then can one move out from viewing all statements critical
> of eckankar as mere opinion.
A good number of Eckists have read lanes book and have found it lacking in
the very things you suggest people should look at... there is nothing in
his book that brings new information to light other than to prove how
deeply biased and narrow minded lane is as a writer researcher.
And to state as a conclusion that the people on this group are not taking
these criticisms in the proper light is just the standard detractor hype.
Most of these issues have been addressed ad nauseum and those issues that
were not mere opinion have been dealt with fairly. Take another look
around the place INoti! The people you're talking about in your
conclusions here have read the material! We've studied the material! We
answer questions about it to the point where david lane should confer
continuing education credits to us for passing the test!!! :-)
Ken
"brian Fletcher" <bri...@iinet.net.au> wrote ...
>
> Hi Cher,
>
> He also talks about his marshal arts prowess. Most probably a sixth there
> also, at origami most probably. ;-)).
Origami is a martial art?!?
(wondering exactly what it is a black belt would do with the paper . . .)
Ken
cher
brian Fletcher
who was very psychic indeed.
He thought she may be a candidate for Eckankar, and wanted me to express my
view .
She told me in no uncertain terms that she was not interested.
"And further more" she added, that black bearded Tibetan that keeps trying
to persuade me every time I see him when I'm moving through different
planes, I've told him I'm not interested also.
Of course, she confirmed who it was "after" she saw a picture of him.
Brian
Rich
>
> wipe? :-D
LOL!!
--
o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rich
> I'd settle for (...) or any historical record of this existance,
> ...perhaps Sudars Birth certificate, death certificate, or an
> employment record or two....or sworn testimony,
> even though it would have to be quite old, that someone exept Paul
> Twitchell knew this guy as a great master!.......
This was posted a few years ago.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For anyone interested in verifying the existence of Sudar Singh,
contact:
Manoranjan Bhattacharya,
Madhab Niwas, P.O. Nona Chandan Pukur,
Dist. 24 Parganas,
W.Bengal, India
Please keep in mind that he is 84 years old. This information has been
provided by the ECKists mentioned by Sri Harold. I would be happy to
pass to them on any thoughtful queries.
Mr. Bhattacharya has indicated that Sudar Singh was alive in 1938. He
did not meet him after that for he did not visit Allahabad afterwards
until the 60's. He does not know when Sudar Singh died.
Mr. Bhattacharya was not interested in Sudar Singh's teachings.
'Sudar Singh' is an extremely uncommon name in India. It is not a
simplified version of 'Sudarshan', which is more usual. There was
another saint at that time in North India called 'Sundar Singh'. During
the taped interview with Mr. Bhattacharya, he never wavered about the
name. On the other hand 'Singh' is one of the most common surnames in
India.
Mr. Bhattacharya is totally unaware of Paul Twitchell, or Eckankar for
that matter. However, he did assert that there were foreigners staying
at the ashram at the time he sought shelter.
The ECKists did get a list of names from Mr. Bhattacharya of others who
might still be alive who knew Sudar Singh. However, after such a long
time, it is difficult to trace people since many have passed on.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sudar Singh is another man of mystery. In his case, some critics say
that he never existed, that he was just a figment of Paul's fertile
imagination. The passing of time now reveals additional proof that
Sudar Singh did indeed exist. As Paul stated, his ashram was in
Allahabad, India.
This time our thanks go out to two Eckists from Sweden, Bani and
Glenn Sodermark. They made the long journey to India, Bani's home,
to try to uncover the mystery of Sudar Singh's existance for
themselves if possible.
Their journey was hard. There were many false leads as they tried to
trace accounts about the elusive ECK Master. But they had followed
their inner nudges from the Mahanta all the way to India, and there
they continued to follow one lead after another.
One day, near the end of their visit to India, a visitor came to
there home. He was an old man. Now about eighty-three years old.
Manoranjan Bhattacharya had been a participant in India's struggle
for independence. He is also a priest for Hindu religious ceremonies.
During a lull in the conversation, Glenn happened to ask him whether
he had heard of Sudar Singh. They were stunned to hear that he
actually had.
He had visited Sudar Singh's ashram three times; the last time was
in 1938. The British had a warrant out for his arrest in connection
with his revolutionary activities. He had sought a place o shelter
from many prominent people in Allahabad, including the Nehru family,
but had been refused. However, Sudar Singh had been very welcoming
and blessed Mr. Bhattacharya, and that kind reception in the past
made him very indignant now to hear of how critics' allegations that
Sudar Singh did not exist. He trusted the Sodermarks to set the
record straight.
Mr. Bhattacharya told them that he probably would have forgotten the
incident after so many years if his life had not been at stake at
the time. He was also very intrigued that anyone today would want
to know of Sudar Singh, who had been a relative unknown on the
Indian guru scene.
In a written statement, witnessed by two doctors, Mr. Bhattacharya
further adds that the ashram was located "behind a market on the
main road, five or six minutes walking distance from Jawaharlal
Nehru's house, Anand Bhawan, in Allahabad." The ashram had four or
five rooms. One prayer room. The others were for members of the
ashram: two or three bathrooms and a kitchen. There was also a garden.
Wisdom of the Heart Book 2 P.57
by Harold Klemp
SO! If you were to hear this tape or see this written statement,
witnessed by two doctors, would you then rejoin Eckankar and believe
that it's all true after all? LOL
Are your 'beliefs' based only in "imperically verifyiable" evidence now?
<SNIP>
> I won't accept the old cliche' of "I saw him on the inner".....
And what about all those that have seen ECK Masters on the outer, in the
physical? If you saw sworn statements from all of them, would you
suddenly change your mind? LOL>
> I see lots of stuff on
> the inner and even got to a point where I could decide what I wanted to dream about,
> and would dream about that issue that very night....Self Delusion is so easy...
It seems as if you have come to the conclusion that the only way to
prove inner experience is with empirical evidence. Aside from having
this as a personal recognition, I don't see how this is possible. It's
using the wrong tool or sense to make a judgement, like trying to weight
bliss. To me it appears as a superficial analytical approach, which is
fine if that's how you choose to view these experiences. I tend towards
accepting multiple alternative viewpoints in an expanded view.
Public <Anonymous_Account>
Sworddancer
supposed witness....no proof except another eckists supposed testimony...didn't believe it
then...don't believe it now
Michael
that most here don't believe you? It seems that you are fairly au fait with
the concept of pointless rambling, because you come here with no proof, no
supposed witnesses, and unsupported testimony (Don't you love these legal
terms!)
OF course "I" believe you... How could I not?
How many group initiations was that, btw? <G>
Love
Michael
"Sworddancer" <brok...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3ACFEE2F...@home.com...
Sharo...@playful.com
Core Teaching: "HU is the name of God"
FLUTE OF GOD (Chapter 6, as it appeared in ORION [magazine]): pages 43 and
44 by Paul Twitchell and copyrighted in 1967
compare with
THE MYSTICISM OF SOUND by Hazrat Inayat Khan, pages 64-65 (original
copyright date 1923)
(Plagiarism Example 1)
Hazrat Inayat Khan writes:
"The Supreme Being has been called by various names in different
languages, but the mystics have known him as HU. . . the only name of the
Nameless. . . The word Hu is the spirit of all sounds and of all words,
and is hidden within them all, as the spirit in the body. It does not
belong to any language, but no language can help belonging to it. This
alone is the true name of God, a name that no people and no religion can
claim as their own."
Paul Twitchell writes:
"The Supreme has been called various names in different languages, but is
known to those who recognize the real wisdom as HU, the name of the
nameless one. The word HU is the spirit of all sounds and of all words,
and is hidden under them all, as the spirit of soul. It does not belong to
any language, but no language can help belonging to it. This alone is the
true name of God, a name that no people and no religion can claim as their
own."
(Side bar note: This is just a glimpse of that purloined section. Notice
how the last few sentences are almost identical.)
(Plagiarism Example 2):
FLUTE OF GOD (Chapter 6, as it appeared in ORION [magazine]): pages 43 and
44 by Paul Twitchell and copyrighted in 1967
compare with
THE MYSTICISM OF SOUND by Hazrat Inayat Khan, pages 64-65 (original
copyright date 1923)
(Plagiarism Example 3):
Hazrat Inayat Khan writes:
"This word is not only uttered by human beings, but is repeated by animals
and birds."
Paul Twitchell writes:
"This word is not only uttered by human beings, but it is repeated by
animals and birds."
(Plagiarism Example 4):
Hazrat Inayat Khan writes:
"All things and beings proclaim this name of the Lord for every activity
of life expresses distinctly... this very sound."
Paul Twitchell writes:
"All things and beings, exclaim this name of the Lord, for every activity
of life expresses distinctly this very sound."
(Plagiarism Example 5):
Hazrat Inayat Khan writes:
"This is the word mentioned in the Bible as existing before the light came
into being, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.'"
Paul Twitchell writes:
"This is the word mentioned in the Bible as existing before light came
into this world, 'In the beginning was the Word, an theWord was with God,
and the Word was God.'"
(Plagiarism Example 6):
Hazrat Inayat Khan writes:
"In English the word 'human' explains two facts that are characteristic of
humanity: Hu means God and man means mind. . ."
Paul Twitchell writes:
"In English the word human explains two facts which are characteristic of
humanity--Hu means God, and man means mind."
Posted at: http://www.mtsac.edu/~dlane/flute.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From
THE MAKING OF A SPIRITUAL MOVEMENT: THE UNTOLD STORY OF PAUL TWITCHELL
AND ECKANKAR
Appendix Two
THE SCIENTOLOGY CONNECTION
Paul Twitchell and L. Ron Hubbard
Paul Twitchell was highly influenced by L. Ron Hubbard and his
religion Scientology. Recently, a number of important documents have
surfaced which shed more light on Twitchell's involvement with the
group. A former scientologist and friend of Paul Twitchell in the
1950's recollects:
Paul Twitchell was a writer hired by L. Ron Hubbard to be in charge of
selecting articles on Scientology submitted by parishioners to be
published in either Scientology publications or elsewhere as a
testimony to the worth of Scientology. When Paul Twitchell found out
about the inner workings of Scientology, I remember him saying, "Boy,
there is a lot of money in religion."
[Ex-Scientologist member, personal letter, June 23, 1987.]
Paul Twitchell regularly wrote for a Scientologist magazine entitled,
"Ability", which was published in Silver Spring, Maryland. For
instance, in issue 61 of "Ability" Twitchell wrote an article called
"The Psychology of Slavery" and in issue 70 he composed a piece titled
"Outsight." In both articles Twitchell speaks very highly of L. Ron
Hubbard. Below are two pertinent excerpts which exemplify Twitchell's
keen regard for the founder of Scientology:
To build an attitude of defeat into the mind's of the enemy is the
constant goal of the dictators. Fortunately for the human race there
are capable individuals who, like L. Ron Hubbard, founder of
Scientology, leader of one of the many groups, are working to help man
free himself from such ruthless control. Freedom from artificial
conditioning of ingrained reflexes against enslavement of the reactive
mind makes such individuals dangerous to the totalitarians.
Scientology can undo, fortunately, the poison of psychology the
mass-mind has been fed.
[Paul Twitchell, "The Psychology of Slavery," Ability (Issue 61,
1957), page 6.]
Some religious teachings, especially the Hindu practices, affirm that
one needs a Guru, or Teacher, for guidance even though the pupil can
exteriorize at will. The difference between Scientology and these
religious practices is that Ron Hubbard shows us what to do before and
after exteriorization. Then following exteriorization we can have use
of this ability of OUTSIGHT at its maximum level.
In other words, Ron teaches us to stand upon our own feet as thetans
and not depend upon a Guru to be at our side at all moments
instructing us what to do, as the Hindus teach. However, a thetan
must be granted beingness in order to gain experience in the handling
of his capabilities, and without interference from another.
That is why Ron never dictates or interfers with our beingness or
personal lives, for he realizes that as long as a Scientologist
depends upon another to help him he is still effect, not working from
cause point, and his self-determinism is low.
[Paul Twitchell, "Outsight," Ability (Issue 70, 1958), page 9.]
What is most controversial about Twitchell's involvement with
Scientology, though, is the fact that he blatantly plagiarized from
L. Ron Hubbard's works. A classic example of this comes from Letters
to Gail where Twitchell copies L. Ron Hubbard's "The Axioms of
Scientology" without mentioning his source. The implication is that
Twitchell invented the axioms. The following is a comparison study of
Paul Twitchell's plagiarism:
THE AXIOMS OF SCIENTOLOGY
By L. Ron Hubbard
Axiom 1. LIFE IS BASICALLY STATIC. Definition: a Life Static has no
mass, no motion, no wave-length, no location in space or in time. It
has the ability to postulate and to perceive.
Axiom 2. THE STATIC IS CAPABLE OF CONSIDERATIONS, POSTULATES, AND
OPINIONS.
Axiom 3. SPACE, ENERGY, OBJECTS, FORM, AND TIME ARE THE RESULT OF
CONSIDERATIONS MADE AND/OR AGREED UPON OR NOT BY THE STATIC, AND ARE
PERCEIVED SOLELY BECAUSE THE STATIC CONSIDERS THAT IT CAN PERCEIVE
THEM.
Axiom 4. SPACE IS A VIEWPOINT OF DIMENSION.
Axiom 5. ENERGY CONSISTS OF POSTULATED PARTICLES AND SOLIDS.
Axiom 6. OBJECTS CONSIST OF GROUPED PARTICLES AND SOLIDS.
Axiom 7. TIME IS BASICALLY A POSTULATE THAT SPACE AND PARTICLES WILL
PERSIST.
Axiom 8. THE APPARENCY OF TIME IS THE CHANGE OF POSITION OF PARTICLES
IN SPACE.
Axiom 9. CHANGE IS THE PRIMARY MANIFESTATION OF TIME.
Axiom 10. THE HIGHEST PURPOSE IN THIS UNIVERSE IS THE CREATION OF AN
EFFECT.
LETTERS TO GAIL [FEBRUARY 22, 1963]
By Paul Twitchell
1] Life is basically a divine spark. Therefore, this life spark has
no mass, no motion, no wavelength, no location in space or in time. It
has the ability to postulate and to perceive.
2] . . . It is capable of postulates and powers.
3] . . . Space, energy, objects, form, and time are the results of the
powers or agreements by the Soul, they are perceived solely because
Soul realizes that It can perceive them.
4] SPACE is a viewpoint of dimension.
5] ENERGY consists of postulated particles in spaces.
6] OBJECTS consist of grouped particles.
7] TIME is basically a postulate that space and particles will
persist.
8] The APPARENCY OF TIME is the change of position of particles in
space.
9] CHANGE is the primary manifestation of time.
10] . . . That the highest purpose in the universe is the creation of
an effect.
--
--
http://www.iguild.com/homes/eckcult
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/eck.txt
http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/center.htm
http://members.delphi.com/sharon2000
Sharo...@playful.com
the United States.
-------------------------------------------------
Alfie Posted:
Well, aside from the obvious lifting of Julian Johnson tracts word for
word, we also have a case where Paul's memory seems to suffer in trying to
remember names. Here is a smattering of Paul's cover-up which disconnects
him from any influence of other gurus and paths to create the impression
that Eckankar stands alone as an autonomous belief system.
Newcomers...read closely and note the changes.
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments
in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 3: "I remember very well when Swami Premananda, of India, who has
a Yoga church in Washington, D.C., said, "When someone asked Bertrand
Russell what his philosophy of Life was, he wrote several volumes of books
on the subject."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 3: "I remember very well when Sudar Singh, the great Eck Master
said, "When someone asked Bertrand Russell what his philosophy of Life was,
he wrote several volumes of books on the subject."
---------------------------------------------
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments
in Orion Magazine. Chapter I -"In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 15: "I have studied under many teacher [sic], and may yet have
to study under more. Like Meher Baba, the Indian saint, who was said to
have nineteen teachers to help him gain his place in the universe, I have
so far had seven, some outstanding ones, including Sri Kirpal Singh, of
Delhi, India.
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 16: "I have studied under many ECK Masters only they have led me
to the highest truth. Like Fubbi Quantz, the ECK saint, who was said to
have nineteen teachers to help him gain his place in the universe, I
have also had several, each outstanding, one being Sudar Singh of India. -
---------------------------------------------
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments
in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 16: "Each has had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal;
each are equally great in their work for mankind. However, I have
felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Kirpal Singh, who has shown me
a lot of the other work during my first year or so under him. Since we
have parted he keeps an impartial view toward me and my research.
Therefore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I feel
that he is sympathetic and interested in my work."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 17: "Each has had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal;
each is equally great in his work for mankind. However, I have felt a
closer kinship and friendliness to Sudar Singh, who showed me a lot of the
other work, during my first year or so under him. Since we have parted he
has retained an impartial view toward me and my research. If I quote
him in these pages it is because I feel that he is sympathetic and
interested in my work and led me to Rebazar Tarzs."
------------------------------------------------
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments
in Orion Magazine. Chapter I -"In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 32: "Life fascinates me. Certain details of life to be worked
out are strange. Lying on the bed late at night I watch the pattern of
shadows weaving about the room. In the presence of familiar night
visitors like Kirpal Singh, or Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan Lama, who come
often in their Nuri- Sarup, or others, some strangers, some friends, I
wonder about life."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 34: "Life fascinates me. Certain details of life that have to
be worked out are strange. Lying on the bed late at night I watch the
pattern of shadows weaving about the room. In the presence of familiar
night visitors like Sudar Singh, or Rebazar Tarzs, the ECK Masters
who come often in their Nuri-Sarup bodies, or others, some strangers, some
friends, I wonder about life."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- ---------------------------------
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments
in Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We live and
have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another way as `we
move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g., Jalalddin
Maulana and Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
Grace.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is, `We live and
have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the
SUGMAD.' Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For
instance, Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
conditions of ability--but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
Grace.'"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments
in Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
Par. 48: "This is what Kirpal Singh speaks of in his discourses. `We
must become the conscious co-worker of God.' Meaning, of course, that
once man is freed of his imbalances he inherits the throne and
does his work for the whole."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of the Princes":
Par. 45: "This is what Sudar Singh spoke of in his dialogues. `We
must become the conscious co-workers of God.'"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------- The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it
appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter
III - "Purification of the Princes" (Sept.-Oct. 1966):
Par. 37: "All masters of earlier days, to name a few: Buddha, Gura
Nanak (sic), Christ, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Lao Tse, George Fox, Sawan Singh,
Confucius, Krishna and Shan- khacharya exhorted us to know ourselves.
Kabir says the same thing `Learn to die a hundred times daily, not once.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes":
Par. 37: "All ECK Masters of earlier days exhorted us to know
ourselves.. .Gopal Das says the same thing, `Learn to die a hundred times
daily, not once.'"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments
inOrion Magazine. Chapter III - Purification of the Princes" (Sept.-Oct.
1966):
Par. 38: Christ said, "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall
see God." Guru Nanak said, "Be pure that truth may be realized."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes":
Par. 38: Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see
God." Rebazar Tarzs said, "Be pure so that truth may be known."
Sharo...@playful.com
"Diogenesis" was me (*Sharon) feeling like being private. Had to
laugh...because Eck Clergyman Richard Pickett wrote "gene" privately
telling "him" to go to PickIt's Oasis Site for info on the cult. Isn't it
sort of funny he didn't recommend the official eckorg site? <gg>
Info on Tibetan Saints
Author: diogenesis
Email:dioge...@my-dejanews.com
Date:1999/01/01Forums: alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello--
I am seeking reliable information and sources to contact for information on
the subject of Tibetan "saints". My nephew is involved with a religious
group known as "Eckankar" that claims its teachings were given to its
founder by a "Rebazar Tarz" who is 500 years old and revered by Tibetan
Buddhists. Herewith you will also find a"story" which my nephew offered as
definite evidence of his sect's validity. I question this. My research so
far indicates this is a questionable group whose present leader spent time
in a mental institution.
Can someone here refer me to resourses both on the web and off where I will
find either verification or refutation of my nephew's claims. Our family is
concerned.
Information may be posted here under this thread subject (I have noted many
postings here and am not interested in buddhism for myself) or email to me
at the above address...email is preferred. thank you for your generous
assistance.
Regards--
+ Gene +
>>>>"Eckankar" story (Note: this was posted on ARE )
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So many seem to have a problem with the teachings of Paul T, believing them
to be fake and plagiarised. All books are copies, if they are not copied
from another, then they are copied off the inner planes, from the original
thinker. There is nothing that isn't copied. Paul wrote, that Eckankar
originally came out of Tibet, from the Katsapuri Monastery and Agam Das,
where resides Yauble Saccabi and Fubbi Quantz, amongst others and not
forgetting Rebazar Tarz who lives in the Hindu Kush mountain range, who of
course was Paul's main instructor. Rebazar was taught by the Eck Masters in
the Katsapuri. It was the wish of Fubbi Quantz and Yauble Saccabi for
Rebazar to take these teachings into the Western World for everyone to
learn about, which, as we all know, he did.
All the Religions of the world have come from this place, it is the seat of
Spirituality for this world and has been for thousands of years.
Those missing years, where there was no account of the activities of Jesus,
were actually spent with The Eck Masters in Tibet. He then returned to
Israel to give the teachings of the people at that time. We all know what a
hard job that was, but it changed the whole course of civilisation.
There have been Eck Masters working behind the scenes throughout the
centuries,working to uplift Mankind spiritually. It is no accident that
Christianity ruled for 2.000 years.
Now for those who do not beleive that the origins of Eckankar come out of
Tibet and are as old as times itself, I must in this instance relate a
small story.
I have a friend, who is not a member of Eckankar, he shuns organisations,
believing that true spirituallity belongs to the realms where dwells your
own mastery over the demons of fear, which prevent us from living and
loving to the utmost. This person is the most spiritually motivated person,
he has enormous courage and is fearless, the spirit of adventure runs
rampant in him and he will take off alone for unknown territory, he makes
absolutely no plans, outside buying his plane ticket. He simply walks off
his plane and goes to where his instincts lead him. Let me say here, that
because he is fearless, the Holy Spirit always looks after him and he will
meet up with people that make his journey interesting and exciting, people
who set his feet on the next part of the journey. People he meets, always
take him in, feed him and give him a bed, no matter where he wonders,
whether it be in India or the middle of Africa. He is not a one for Hotels
or any of this superficial, pandering kind of rubbish, no he beleives in
touching the hearts of the indiginous people, living with them and
breathing with them.
The point I am coming to here, is, that this person recently visited India
and was led to all the different Ashrams and Gurus, as he went along, but
of course, what was utmost in his thinking was to meet the Dali Lama and
enter into the Buhddist monasteries. Slowly he made his way up to the
Northern Indian and Tibetan border and here he met a Lama, who was so
impressed with his quest for Truth, that he took him into a Monastery where
no outsider treads, to meet the Dali Lama.
During his time in here, he was taken to secret rooms and showed
manuscripts and scrolls that had been written centuries earlier.
On these scrolls were written the names of the Eck Masters and that they
belonged to the movement of Eckankar, which was spelt slightly differently
to the Eckankar that we are familiar with.
He said that he was awestruck by this experience, because he didn't believe
that Eckankar was a bona fide Spiritual movement, or that it had any basis
in Truth. He couldn't deny what he had seen.
Well he didn't have to convince me, because I already understood that
Eckankar had come out Tibet and that Paul was merely an instrument to write
down and refresh the western World about the true words of God.
Paul of course copied, but to deny his books is to deny the very words of
God.
And this is also the reason that Harold does not renounce Paul's works.
Perhaps, we should all start looking at the words of God once again and put
trust and gratitude back into our lives.
Stranger by the River can be read and re read and can in no way be
considered offensive, Just uplifting.
With regards to Paul's reference about us being the 'Chosen Ones' in
Eckankar and that all others are aliens. Well some of the things he wrote
were definitely 'crack pot' (he was JUST a Human) but I think Harold has
already put us straight on this matter, telling us that, one of the ways
that we progress spiritually, is by putting aside the vanity and arrogance,
where the desire for 'Power' resides and admitting all others into our
hearts. This is a start and I can find no fault with it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi
I have a friend who is involved in 'eck' and told me about this "500
year old Tibetan saint" and it is utter garbage."Rabazar Tarz" is no more
a Tibetan name than John Smith is. Check out this link for a critical view
of eck, and have your son read it.
General page on cults:
<A
HREF="http://www.lightlink.com/drogers/cults/">http://www.lightlink.com/dro
gers/cults/</A>
Good Luck
Tim Knutton
Author: CervenFinnEmail:cerve...@aol.com
Date:1999/01/02
Forums: alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The previous respondent to this thread
was quite correct that "Rebazar Tarz" is
not a Tibetan name. (I can read Tibetan,
and this name sounds more Persian than
anything else. More likely, it is entirely
made up.)
It is astonishing (appalling, really) how
many charlatans--even in the present
day--try to validate their own religious
trips by claiming to have had contacts
with Tibetans, or to have been to Tibet,
or to have visions of deceased Tibetan
saints, or to be confirmed in some way
by contemporary Tibetans.
For students of religion, as for other
kinds of consumers, the watchword
should always be "Let the buyer
beware!"
Good luck getting your nephew out of
Eckankar!
All the best, - Rick Finney
---------------------------------------------------------
Re: Info on Tibetan Saints Needed Author: Edwin Crabbe
Email:edwin...@tinet.ie
Date:1999/01/02
Forums: alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Gene,
You are right. I can't tell you anything about Eckankar, but I can assure
you the stuff you quote is indeed garbage. Anyone with any real knowledge
of Tibetan Buddhism (and they are not *so* hard to find) will tell you the
same.
Ed
-------------------------------------------
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help Re: Info on Tibetan Saints Needed more options
Author: Sat Tara S. Khalsa
Email:sat...@sattara.com
Date:1999/01/04
Forums:alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan
"
Actually, the origin of "Eckankar" is probably Sikh, not Tibetan, and is an
offshoot, like Radha Soami and Ruhani Satsang, that is no longer connected
with the original.
The Sikh "Guru", the Siri Guru Granth Sahib, which is comprised of the
writings of various Sikh, Muslim and Hindu saints and is about 500 years
old, begins with a quite famous prayer/mantra of Guru Nanak, the founder of
Sikh Dharma. The first portion is " Ek Ong Kar, Sat Nam, Karta Purkh, Nir
Bhao, Nir Vair, Akal Moort, Adjuni, Sai Bhang, Gur Prasad, Jap, Ad Sach,
Jugad Sach, He Bi Sach, Nanak Hosi Bi Sach."
Eckankar is just a mispronunciation of Ek Ong Kar. The Sikhs have,
throughout their history, been famous energy yogis, and their mantra yogas
have spawned many um....offshoots.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Kunzang Dorje
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message 6 of 6
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help Re: Info on Tibetan Saints Needed Author: diogenesis
Email:dioge...@my-dejanews.com
Date:1999/01/04
Forums: alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan, alt.religion.eckankar
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pardon my final intrusion into your excellent discussion group. I wish to
extend my appreciation for your assistance in determining the facts about
this "Eckankar" my nephew is involved with.
I found it enlightening that members of Eckankar "lurk" here; it was noted
that someone had sought information regarding the likelihood that
Eckankar's "Rebazar Tarz" existed at a.r.b.t., and the Eckankar member who
had offered the story of a friend who accessed secret Tibetan Buddhist
information as "proof" of the existence of "Rebazar Tarz" retracted the
story and admitted its untruth.
In article <sattara-ya0240800...@news.dimensional.com>,
sat...@sattara.com (Sat Tara S. Khalsa) wrote:
> In article <76j4ni$3s4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dioge...@my-dejanews.com
> wrote:
>
I have located information regarding Sufi sources, and corresonded with
reputable Sufist sources. The "founder" of Eckankar seems to have
"borrowed" from many legitimate sources in fabricating this cult. Or,
pardon me, offshoot!
May I note -- I have no personal or religious objection to any valid
spiritual path, religion, or teaching --- however, some "offshoots" can
certainly be classified as cults --- with no true spiritual value for those
who seek God.
The only "proof" offered by Eckankar is the subjective "inner" experiences
of its members, who claim to receive spiritual teachings of the highest
order from materialized "Eck Masters" such as Rebazar Tarz. Of course,
Eckankar's leaders (who claim to be "Godmen") cite personal experiences
with these materialized characters. Over 900 of them, in fact.
Enough. I thank you.
-- Namaste --
+ Gene +
--------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:52:01 -0500
From: arel...@mindspring.com
Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
Subject: Re: Origins of Eckankar
ive...@indigo.ie wrote:
>
> On the article I wrote earlier on the 'Origins of Eckankar' and my
> friend who visited the Buddhist Monastery. He phoned and said the story
> he told me was untrue. Appologies.
It's a good thing you corrected this story quickly here.
I can just imagine the people at the eck international office passing
this story along to Harold for his next seminar talk. Sounds like a
story he would tell to solidify ekcists' faith in eckankar's non
existent masters.
Lurk
----------------------------------------------
Date: 4 Jan 1999 19:51:35 -0800
From: "J." <J.@newsguy.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
Subject: Re: I would suggest further research
Dear Gene -
Thanks for posting your comments here on a.r.e.
I agree with your conclusions about Eckankar. I was an Eckist for 6 years
during the late 70s, early 80s.
My experience with Eckankar and Eckists is a bit different from David's. I
knew dozens of Eckists, but there was certainly nothing remarkable about
any of them as far as I could see. We were just people with a common
fascination for the ideas of Paul Twitchell.
I knew a great many Eckists that were into drugs before they came into
Eckankar. Since Eckankar is anti-drug, some credit has to go to Eckankar
for upgrading the lives of these people.
Aside from certain positive benefits it may give to some, it's my belief
that Eckankar fosters a self-centered attitude in many of its members.
This attitude comes as a direct result of the teachings of Eckankar, which
are highly elitist, and which also place undue emphasis on subjective
personal experience as "reality."
Eckankar has most definitely hurt people, especially those that accepted
its teachings at face value only to find out later that they'd been lied
to.
To this day, Eckankar refuses to acknowledge the obvious truth about Paul
Twitchell, and continues to perpetuate the myths that Paul Twitchell
created about himself and his successors.
In other words, Eckankar continues setting people up to get hurt, and has
taken zero responsibility for the people it has hurt.
Rich
>
> That was not proof...Just another of Harolds ramlings. We have no statement by the
> supposed witness....no proof except another eckists supposed testimony...didn't believe it
> then...don't believe it now
A great example of turning a blind eye. *Again* he can't bring himself
to answer the questions or address the points raised. All he can muster
is to call Eckists and Harold liars.
--
o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Winders
"Rich" <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote in message news:3AD039...@aloha.net...
> Sworddancer wrote:
> >
> > That was not proof...Just another of Harolds ramlings. We have no
statement by the
> > supposed witness....no proof except another eckists supposed
testimony...didn't believe it
> > then...don't believe it now
>
> A great example of turning a blind eye. *Again* he can't bring himself
> to answer the questions or address the points raised. All he can muster
> is to call Eckists and Harold liars.
> --
> o
> |
> ~/|
> _/ |\
> / | \
> -/ | \
> _ /____|___\_
> (___________/
> Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> > Rich wrote:
>
riding into the sunrise.
Windy
cher
Rich
All the examples of the alleged plagiarism that have actually been
presented amount to less that 5% of Paul Twitchell's teachings.
Rich
published by others. So how important is that?
Michael
"Rich" <rsm...@aloha.net> wrote in message news:3AD0BA...@aloha.net...
> FWIW
>
> All the examples of the alleged plagiarism that have actually been
> presented amount to less that 5% of Paul Twitchell's teachings.
>
I seem to recall the famous Plagiarism Challenge you put up, Sri Rich...
Somehow it seems that 'actual' effort in resolving this issue is WAY beyond
the detractors...Or maybe the more they looked, the less they found?
Love
Michael
arel...@home.com
Every true believer religion has true believer stories like this. Big deal.
Lurk
brian Fletcher
> > Of course, she confirmed who it was "after" she saw a picture of him.
>
> Every true believer religion has true believer stories like this. Big
deal.
>
> Lurk
The reason I mentioned this is for those who could compare similar
experiences.
One of the benefits of this sort of vehicle, is that we can talk about such
events, and not feel as though we are in isolation.
To talk to people you know about such stuff, can often result is similar
comments as our nameless one. But at least he/she doesn't sit at your dining
table each night, or coach your kids at soccer ;-).
Ever time a "light comes on " for you, somebody is standing in your shadow
(one of the many aspects of the law of "you know what")......... they miss
your company so attempt to sabotage your understanding.;-).
Brian
Galuuk
or
are you really as pig-headedly blind as depicted in the following post of
yours?
Lurks entire post(inccluding headers)....
>Subject: Re: none
>From: arel...@home.com
>Date: 4/9/01 7:45 PM EST
>Message-id: <3AD25782...@home.com>
Joey
At the end of information there is knowledge.....
At the end of knowledge there is Wisdom.....
At the end of Wisdom there is Love.....
cher
If lurk really feels this way, it kind of makes one wonder why he posts to
this group, hey?
arel...@home.com
brian Fletcher wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Of course, she confirmed who it was "after" she saw a picture of him.
> >
> > Every true believer religion has true believer stories like this. Big
> deal.
> >
> > Lurk
>
> The reason I mentioned this is for those who could compare similar
> experiences.
>
> One of the benefits of this sort of vehicle, is that we can talk about such
> events, and not feel as though we are in isolation.
That's all well and good. I generally think it is useful to talk to
others to compare experiences, ideas and such. I react because most of
the time these stories are used to sell eckankar in testimonial fashion.
>
> To talk to people you know about such stuff, can often result is similar
> comments as our nameless one.
In a group like eckankar, where status is achieve by the quality or
quantity of spiritual experiences one has experienced, I think this
creates the conditions where people will tell lies or embellish or use
imaginations to gain such status. So these stories must be scrutinize
and taken with a grain of salt.
Lurk
brian Fletcher
> > One of the benefits of this sort of vehicle, is that we can talk about
such
> > events, and not feel as though we are in isolation.
>
> That's all well and good. I generally think it is useful to talk to
> others to compare experiences, ideas and such. I react because most of
> the time these stories are used to sell eckankar in testimonial fashion.
Reaction goes hand in hand with such judgements. The generality of the above
adds "confirmation" to those who have had similar experiences. I obviously
don't have similar events to everyone, but neither do I put them down.
Our detracter is like a lizard, ready to flick his tongue out at any
passing perspective.
He/she is obviously obsessed with selling.
This stuff cannot be sold. No more than the position our "obstacle maker"
can be.
> >
> > To talk to people you know about such stuff, can often result is similar
> > comments as our nameless one.
> In a group like eckankar, where status is achieve by the quality or
> quantity of spiritual experiences one has experienced,
How cute, and ridiculous. That unmistakable style again. He/she makes such
statements with such an aura of authority. What a joke.
>I think this
> creates the conditions where people will tell lies or embellish or use
> imaginations to gain such status. So these stories must be scrutinize
> and taken with a grain of salt.
>
Which is why he/she is on the outside looking in. The justification of what
he thinks it is ,is right there.
Fear comes in many forms.
Sound the air raid sirens...;-))
Brian
Etznab
That was like, What? Fifteen years ago when Rich wrote:
"There is no doubt that about 5% of what Paul wrote had already been published by others. So how important is that?"
Let's take a short trip down memory lane. This is a snippet from Doug Marman (whom Sean has written about extensively, and to the point of perturbing Kinpa):
[...] So, we can clearly see that Paul used Johnson's work as a source for his
writings. I think the fact that Paul's sentences follow the order of Johnson's book suggests that this is not a matter of simply drawing from memory, although it is a possiblity. However, we can also see that Paul did make the effort to rewrite everything he wrote. I can't see a string of identical words any longer than 3 words long. There are two cases of this: "all ages of" and "drawn up to", which are obviously common twists of words and hardly something that belong to Johnson.
In other words, Paul did exactly what most English teachers recommend as
being acceptable. He rewrote the material and put it in his own words.
Doug.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/6Q447ti-UJg/99gyjJFv1vMJ
Correction. What "we can see", Doug Marman, is that your remarks were a gross insult and disgrace to the whole truth!
Henosis Sage
In DWTM Rebazar/Twitchell says:
"Growth is attained through an exchange of the old for the
new, of the good for the better; it is a conditional or
reciprocal action, for each of us is a complete [spiritual] entity
and [the] completeness makes it possible for [man] to receive
only as [he gives]."
The words in [....] are the only ones different than the original below.
And Charles Haanel says in the Master Key System:
"Growth is attained through an exchange of the old for the
new, of the good for the better; it is a conditional or
reciprocal action, for each of us is a complete thought entity
and this completeness makes it possible for us to receive
only as we give."
That makes 43 words in a row from 48 words in this one sentence
copied by Twitchell. That's 89% verbatim copying fwiw.
This is the norm, not the exception.
It's not 0.7%, not 1%, or 2%, nor 5%.
Twitchell's verbatim copying and plagiarism equals more than 90% of
his Eckankar writings.
Henosis Sage
Here's another from DWTM pg 119:
DWTM: "The keener the sensibilities, the more delicate the tastes, the more acute the judgement,
MKS: "The keener the sensibilities, the more acute the judgment, the more delicate the taste,
Re-ordering the phrases doesn't change the verbatim copying 14 words in a row.
DWTM: the more refined the feelings, and the more subtle the intelligence, the loftier the aspiration.
MKS: the more refined the moral feelings, the more subtle the intelligence, the loftier the aspiration
Removing the word "moral" doesn't change the verbatim copying of 15 words in a row.
DWTM: Therefore, the purer and more intense are the gratifications which existence yields.
MKS: [...........] the purer and more intense are the gratifications which existence yields.
Adding in the word 'therefore' and starting a new sentence, doesn't change the verbatim copying of 11 words in a row.
DWTM: Hence it is that the study of the best that has been thought in the world gives supreme pleasure."
MKS: Hence it is that the study of the best that has been thought in the world gives supreme pleasure."
Putting 19 verbatim words into RT's mouth doesn't change the proof of copyright
infringement and verbatim plagiarism done by Twitchell of Haanel's writings.
Nor does denial.
Nor does it remove the proof that Twitchell wrote this at the beginning of pg 119:
R.T.: "Be patient. Your time will come. At the present you
must take down my dictation for the world to read. Be
direct with what I say - never leave any doubt in the
reader's mind!" [...]
----
The ORIGINAL Paragraph by HAANEL in The Master Key System (MKS) goes:
"The keener the sensibilities, the more acute the judgment,
the more delicate the taste, the more refined the moral
feelings, the more subtle the intelligence, the loftier the
aspiration - the purer and more intense are the gratifications
which existence yields. Hence it is that the study of the best
that has been thought in the world gives supreme pleasure."
more info see page 12 of this pdf file
[TEHA 2014] DWTM Dialogues with the Master - PLAGIARISM by Paul Twitchell
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPdzhFU2JFalJoaEU/view?usp=sharing