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Goldsmith and The Box
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Henosis Sage
Jun 24, 2015, 7:18:42 AM6/24/15
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Goldsmith and The Box
aka "What Paul Twitchell's plagiarism of the Eckankar doctrines / teachings proves beyond any doubt."
At least to an intelligent, non-delusional, aware, wise, sane rational ethical decent honest average person with integrity.
This started as a response to a post by Etznab on the thread "Beyond Power LTG III
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/pyueahsewvq/wxn_qoe1royj
Then it took on a life of it's own .... and hey, I didn't need to copy someone else's writings to say this - it's like, you know, original. :-)
Sorry for the crappy typos and editing, I was going to tidy it up but that real hard soemtimes, so here goes.
Goldsmith speaking .......... the Box.
Interesting Etznab, I see what you mean. There may be some writings by Goldsmith speaking of the same issues in this book you ref, but could even more closely mirror what Twitchell writes that's more obviously plagiarising / verbatim copying. And so it was, within a day Etznab had several verbatim examples from LTG III to that healing book by Goldsmith put out after 1959.
As you know, I don't have the energy for it any more to bother with it, bar looking at your own comments here, and simply nod in agreement. I'm over seing yet another example of Twitch's copying and ripping off he did. Or doing nay more runs on the plagiarism software that tracks all over the internet. I just do not have the energy for it any more ... because, enough is enough :-)
The only thing that can or will happen is that over time more and more sources will be found for Twitchell's writings by accident or intent. And the same style will show up, the same MO, and the same large amounts of texts being used in exactly the same way and in the same order as the source material.
Your point about Twitchell's presentation as being a less detailed "summary" in this LTG letter against how Goldsmith presented it. Yes, true, eg "Goldsmith's version is more extensive, whereas Twitchell's is like a relative summary (in other words)"
There is other obvious plagiarizing/verbatim takes in his iIWL ina similar format too ..... anyway, a word that might capture "all of PT's methods" in a word might be "CULLING"?
origin of the term
the word comes from the latin colligere, which means "to collect". the term can be applied broadly to mean sorting a collection into two groups: one that will be kept and one that will be rejected.
the cull is the set of items rejected during the selection process. the culling process is repeated until the selected group is of proper size and consistency desired.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/culling http://www.thefreedictionary.com/culling
Nothing wrong in doing that, I suppose some call it "editing" .... but I think what Twitchell did was more extensive and systemic. I think everyone does "culling" naturally in life; it's why people share jokes they like, and not the ones they didn't. or change friends or political parties :-) or refuse to read items by x author or watch nbc vs fox ..... and it's just like going for coffee after ruhani satsang meetings in dc with initiates,
and people there say "hey paul what do you think of this spiritual healing mumbo jumbo?"
... and he recalls something he liked by Goldsmith say, or Kabir or whoever and he rattles off his "his thoughts" on the matter , in "a summary like manner" as you suggested Etznab, and it comes out "sounding right" and people go "Wow Paul ur so amazing, we like that."
And so PT smiles then the cake or pizza comes out the conversation moves along, but Twitchell (or whoever) doesn't mention or say :"oh, btw, it's something Goldsmith said in xyz book, check it or him out, rings good/true to me .. and it just popped into my mind when you asked."
No one would have an issue about some one writing things they remembered,and writing about it in a book, even if they didn't recall it exactly right in who said it,or recall it accurately ... that to me is normal human behaviour, and where the notion of you can't "copyright ideas" comes from ... because we are all a mishmash of memories, as well as faulty memories.... and many of those memories are "ideas".
But to go further and actually sit and copy someone's stuff verbatim, whether the bible or kabir hundreds of years ago, or goldsmith in the 1960s and then claim sugmad told you, or rebazar tazrs said it, or say rumi said to me when on the 9th plane xyz ... and it's all so "compelling" and enjoyable for the reader is a bs unethical crappy thing to pretend to be a "master" the highest consciousness on earth, and that it was ss & rt who taught you everything you know, is just spiritually unethical .... not the act itself but the false frame created the box this whole "story" by pt forces people to fit into .... and accept.
The whole overplay of "secret teachings" via the eck hierarchy is just silly and unnecessary, imho. Well we can't say everything due to "bad/evil/" agents of the kal - look rt said that here in this discourse by pt ..... is a load of utter crap when then puts a TM and Copyright upon it ... and then says its these Eckankar teachings that have always existed but now it's safe to let them out into the world publicly .. because the Eck masters said so .. is more than crap it is 'evil' and utterly unethical on any level ... could even be a psychic crime to lay this out like that, IMHO.
To then say that the poor unknowing student needs to be told this to motivate them, and gain their "attention" and pump up their "belief" in a "god power"and Mahanta Godman, is frankly even more despicable. And for people like Patti Simpson to sugar coat that poisonous pill [until the day she died ] .. and for Marman to be so utterly confused about stuff to then write a book that starts off with telling other people that Guru Ajan was writing about what he knew of the "Eckankar teachings back in time" ... is the lowest of the iow.
It's an act similar to the force feeding of geese to make a super pate to sell the rich french aristocrats .. force feeding and corralling people into that box created out of thin air and lies by Twitchell about this stuff. Material that again he took and edited to his own purposes and ideas. But again the "ideas" shared by Goldsmith or whoever and shared again by Twitchell are in themselves fine and good or not. It's still better to credit real people for they said or taught, and to analysis and select from that freely if one wishes too ... but it's always best to credit and tell folks who the source/s are than not.
It's this thing I call the "Box creating" and the rationalisation of that choice that Twitchell made that I can't agree with ... for it turns many people in autobots and head trips ... it is not freeing it is a mental prison ..... it is not wisdom charity nor freedom. Especially when that "story" is reconstructed into a formal "organisation" then a company, then corporation and then a "religion" pulling in tax breaks and shit .. that's silly.
Now there's big deal about accepting a spiritual hierarchy, and astral entities, or whatever , of planes and lords and rulers and energies and light and sound and all that .... and the mind mechanics and intuition and inspiration, and far out dreams and even inner soul travel .. that's all fine and good .. it is still the untrue box that is the problem here .. and trying to to shore it up by declaring .. hoi all those "other teachers" were fine and good but hey, Rebazar .. now he is the man man .... and he's been at it for like 500+ years // and has carried the flame for Guru Nanak to when dear old Paul was born on a river boat by some cheap unmarried mother his dad threw a leg over is even worse than anything i have mentioned above.
Marman and Patti can crow about how wonderful Paul was and all the positive things he did and the warm attention he got from the many many who joined and so on ... and those who got a lot out of it and others who didn't (that happens with anything, some people can't fit the program for any number of reasons ) that box is still crappola, and even if all up 1, or 2 or even 3 million people at some point joined eckankar, obviously because they found it worth joining is all well and good ... yet the reality is that that same 1, 2 or 3 million people have all quit along the way ... at least 99% of them have .. and the box is still the box, if anything it is smaller more tighter restricting box than it ever was ... and god that's even obvious from 1987 to 1995 to 2000 to today ...
take away the box (the myths and rules) and all you got is an anti-social dude who spent his life reading others "ideas" and yet also getting inspired and over time "typing it all out" or getting a blue highlight pen and making "key summary points" he liked and "believed in" or that confirmed what other shad said ... and made sense to him ... and then pretended decades later that box existed and it told him ...
everyone recognises things that "ring true" to them ... and every human has dreams, and memories, and ideals, and values, and they flock together, and along the way we all do our own culling by default on auto anyway ...
and if goldsmith also "plagiarised" verbatim or culled others ideas that he presented in his eternal way teachings, and so it's ok that twitch did the same and also made this compelling box which "looked different" or "more true" and yet sounded like all these other known "masters" and "experts" and spiritual "celebrities" of the past ..... and then he claimed simultaneously that these were all amateurs really not the real deal at all ... for the real deal was in fact the box all along where rt and ss were the ones that taught goldsmith and guru arjan but they just didnt know that or the whole story until rt dictated it all to twitchell ...
when in actual fact it was the other way around - twitchell was standing on the shoulders of hundreds upon hundreds of writers and then he culled what he chose to like ... (no different than facebook or twitter today)
""one that will be kept and one that will be rejected. the cull is the set of items rejected during the selection process. the culling process is repeated until the selected group is of proper size and consistency desired.""
and he then "pasted" it verbatim into his "editable word doc" and proceeded to pretend rt said it and ss said it .. and gopal said it .... all these little "summaries" twitchell made (as you mentioned above) got out his sticky tape and made it all into a box ... the great box spoke to twitchell and told him he had to make the great sacrifice of being the new age messiah of the day ordained by the box to bring the only "true" word of god to mankind ... woohoo !!!
it ends up that people are sold a crock, where the box is far more important than the "summaries" / knowledge it contains .. and when i read a bit of that healing book by goldsmith, i saw no box .. but just the ideas there and they just "rang true" ( abit about no good evil just the god power ... ala twitches no power letter .... )
twitchell didnt need to say anything about where he got his ideas and copied texts from .. he could have just said it ... like goldsmith said .. not some "entity" from across the universes just to teach the twitch get the box built.
read goldsmith or schure and it is what it is ... you cannot read twitchell or klemp gross radhasoami and others without that box ..... it actually changes everything good about goldsmith and schure imho ...
the other problem for twitchell was his sloppiness and lack of care about all kinds of things; where he missed loads of stuff that needed culling not including ... and telling the truth about his ideas and inspirations and his sources of inspiration as they actually were and not what the great box said they were .... is a psychic crime and someone needed to tell him hoi, that's unethical that bs that's an incompetent way to present your "writings and beliefs" when that their box is absolute bs and you know .. he didn't have to lie about anything ...
and if this box is so great then where are all the 1, 2 , 3 million every where praising it openly ... and backing the ideals at least, and why is that people like QUOC go absolutely off the wall .. in a seriously bad way.
why is it that some people are still out there talking to friends or writing notes on internet website pages that 20 , 30 , 40 years ago when they were exposed to eckankar in their life that all this crazy shit went down connected with it and his and whatever - people genuinely traumatized by the box and it's protectors against evil ..... an evil the box says doesn't even exist ... then next page with text from some other authors says it does exist and be careful watch out - doomed without the mahanta who people see as klemp (in their experiences and dreams and whatever )
people do get confused, His are teaching who have never had an oobe or soul travel or met a master on the inner ... and some believe the box must be perfect so they should be too ... and pretend and many start to believe that therefore they must be too.
twitchell spent all this energy pointing out all the bs errors in all the other boxes and said . hey read rumi, but forget the cultural islam bits iow their box, and all the other boxes, see there 's this long part of it that 'kinda the same' and so i culled everything out i didn't like agree with ... because i twitchell can say this 1000 ties better than kirpal or sawan or jonson or brunton or goldsmith .. they get bogged down in "details" i'll just lay out the "summary of it" no 3 hour meditations needed, cull that ... blah blah ....
and then he created this giant box to stick all his copied writings into and the add-on 10% which was his own ideas adn connecting "ideas/methods" together best he could and simply ended up with just another restrictive box that created separation not 'harmony' and praise by criticisms, and paranoia, and dishonesty to cover up the "inconsistencies he knew was in his "stories" all his umms and aaaahs in his talks trying to keep the "story" consistent and couldn;t ...
gail the 21 year old know nothing went wow paul that sounds so great, or trying this idea works great .. wow ur so amazing ..... on top of that he simply didnt have that much respect he advertised himself at, because he just lied and lied and talked all kinds of crap in public along the way.
suddenly the box was the important aspect not the original "ideas" he had collected from all these other writers teachers books paths etc .... nor his own real life experiences of ups and downs ... if you didn't have rt appearing and giving to you when walking the beach front, there must be something wrong with you, not doing ur SE's or being influenced by the Kal or worse an knowing agent of the Kal to undermine the the box and the great leader, and thus were a danger to all of the box and then the paranoia and "gossip" really kicks in among the group.
Klemp has called that "cleaning out the weeds from the garden of eck" - i think he's mad saying shit like that.
or belittling people publicly in talks (not by name but who would he spoke of them if they heard his comments) who were so off the rails they imagined they'd been made the next lem and had to go to Chanhassen and discuss the hand over with Klemp ... like they're like that because the stuff fed to them about that box ....
or as one woman told her own story that a hi/resa told her parents that she had seriously evil past lives and they needed to get rid of her, so that night she was shipped off to her grandmothers and practically disowned by her parents as being of the kal and irredeemably evil.
and people like QUOC believed they had this special protection of the lem, and therefore they just knew what was happening wasn't some mental problem but astral entities burrowing into his head, and astral entities swearing at him one minute and telling him he's the real lem but he knows they are lying .. and why didn't you heal me of this issue LEM 1 year later??? you must be a fraud .... but still the guy has these things happening but believes he's not crazy/ill and in need of help.
this kinds of things are not kept a record of by local satsang societies .. they only ever send in the good news of how many turned up today to hear about the box ....
oh well that's a long rave over what was a rather uncomplicated subject goldsmith and similarities with twitchells writings.
was goldsmith ever accused of plagiarism? Alice Bailey? Guy Ballard? Haanel? Schure? brunton? i dont know .. but Blavatsky was .. and LTG III has buckets of plagiarism .. it's everywhere, all his books and discourses, and even iwl letters and his talks (more or less as they are based on same material) ---
I think (guessing musing) at some point twitchell realised he'd made a bit of a mess of things. and things were a real mess when the membership rapidly increased in after IMSIAF came out [ by that lying dead shit Brad Steiger ] .... he clearly didn't have the skills wherewithal to run a large organisation ... or plan ahead well. not his forte at all. :-)
But as a liar and a fraud he was first class operator .. though so incompetent he couldn't do it well enough not to get busted .. and busted he did .. and ever since people have left eckankar in their droves
no, over the fact the plagiarism is there ... but because that lack of integrity bled through out everything to do with Eckankar and fucked it from the start .. to today and it will never recover and it will never be anything of value in this world or to the people sucked into the bullshit that it is.
Eckankar is not and never has been a religion - it should be officially removed as such in all nations on earth
and instead be treated like it actually is - a mythical fraud perpetrated on innocent people through the intentional and knowing use of false pretences and perhaps even criminal conspiracy of participants going all the way back to Paul & Gail Twitchell...... up to today's leadership under Harold.
Who knows for certain? People are surely entitled to a view and have a right to ask questions. Things that undermined and stressed Darwin was all being driven by the plagiarism and thence the need to obfuscate, deny, and not look at it. LTG III is something that triggered his downfall in 1983. Arguments between he and Klemp surrounded each of them "quoting verbatim" Paul's writings not realising (nor believing at the time) it was all basically copied and made up anyway. The plagiarism was involved in the death and estate court case of Helen Frye and Eckankar. David Lane arising was much about copying others writings .. and then behind it all was the other deception of twitchell's own life and claims about his "training" which simply could notbe true .... plagiarism and other deceptions that has undermined Eckankar's credibility for decades. And while there may not be much 'excitement or drama' over that now as in the past it still there ... will always be there. And probably never dealt with openly or honestly. Which is a shame ...people deserve we each deserve better imho.
aka "What Paul Twitchell's plagiarism of the Eckankar doctrines / teachings proves beyond any doubt."
At least to an intelligent, non-delusional, aware, wise, sane rational ethical decent honest average person with integrity.
This started as a response to a post by Etznab on the thread "Beyond Power LTG III
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/pyueahsewvq/wxn_qoe1royj
Then it took on a life of it's own .... and hey, I didn't need to copy someone else's writings to say this - it's like, you know, original. :-)
Sorry for the crappy typos and editing, I was going to tidy it up but that real hard soemtimes, so here goes.
Goldsmith speaking .......... the Box.
Interesting Etznab, I see what you mean. There may be some writings by Goldsmith speaking of the same issues in this book you ref, but could even more closely mirror what Twitchell writes that's more obviously plagiarising / verbatim copying. And so it was, within a day Etznab had several verbatim examples from LTG III to that healing book by Goldsmith put out after 1959.
As you know, I don't have the energy for it any more to bother with it, bar looking at your own comments here, and simply nod in agreement. I'm over seing yet another example of Twitch's copying and ripping off he did. Or doing nay more runs on the plagiarism software that tracks all over the internet. I just do not have the energy for it any more ... because, enough is enough :-)
The only thing that can or will happen is that over time more and more sources will be found for Twitchell's writings by accident or intent. And the same style will show up, the same MO, and the same large amounts of texts being used in exactly the same way and in the same order as the source material.
Your point about Twitchell's presentation as being a less detailed "summary" in this LTG letter against how Goldsmith presented it. Yes, true, eg "Goldsmith's version is more extensive, whereas Twitchell's is like a relative summary (in other words)"
There is other obvious plagiarizing/verbatim takes in his iIWL ina similar format too ..... anyway, a word that might capture "all of PT's methods" in a word might be "CULLING"?
origin of the term
the word comes from the latin colligere, which means "to collect". the term can be applied broadly to mean sorting a collection into two groups: one that will be kept and one that will be rejected.
the cull is the set of items rejected during the selection process. the culling process is repeated until the selected group is of proper size and consistency desired.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/culling http://www.thefreedictionary.com/culling
Nothing wrong in doing that, I suppose some call it "editing" .... but I think what Twitchell did was more extensive and systemic. I think everyone does "culling" naturally in life; it's why people share jokes they like, and not the ones they didn't. or change friends or political parties :-) or refuse to read items by x author or watch nbc vs fox ..... and it's just like going for coffee after ruhani satsang meetings in dc with initiates,
and people there say "hey paul what do you think of this spiritual healing mumbo jumbo?"
... and he recalls something he liked by Goldsmith say, or Kabir or whoever and he rattles off his "his thoughts" on the matter , in "a summary like manner" as you suggested Etznab, and it comes out "sounding right" and people go "Wow Paul ur so amazing, we like that."
And so PT smiles then the cake or pizza comes out the conversation moves along, but Twitchell (or whoever) doesn't mention or say :"oh, btw, it's something Goldsmith said in xyz book, check it or him out, rings good/true to me .. and it just popped into my mind when you asked."
No one would have an issue about some one writing things they remembered,and writing about it in a book, even if they didn't recall it exactly right in who said it,or recall it accurately ... that to me is normal human behaviour, and where the notion of you can't "copyright ideas" comes from ... because we are all a mishmash of memories, as well as faulty memories.... and many of those memories are "ideas".
But to go further and actually sit and copy someone's stuff verbatim, whether the bible or kabir hundreds of years ago, or goldsmith in the 1960s and then claim sugmad told you, or rebazar tazrs said it, or say rumi said to me when on the 9th plane xyz ... and it's all so "compelling" and enjoyable for the reader is a bs unethical crappy thing to pretend to be a "master" the highest consciousness on earth, and that it was ss & rt who taught you everything you know, is just spiritually unethical .... not the act itself but the false frame created the box this whole "story" by pt forces people to fit into .... and accept.
The whole overplay of "secret teachings" via the eck hierarchy is just silly and unnecessary, imho. Well we can't say everything due to "bad/evil/" agents of the kal - look rt said that here in this discourse by pt ..... is a load of utter crap when then puts a TM and Copyright upon it ... and then says its these Eckankar teachings that have always existed but now it's safe to let them out into the world publicly .. because the Eck masters said so .. is more than crap it is 'evil' and utterly unethical on any level ... could even be a psychic crime to lay this out like that, IMHO.
To then say that the poor unknowing student needs to be told this to motivate them, and gain their "attention" and pump up their "belief" in a "god power"and Mahanta Godman, is frankly even more despicable. And for people like Patti Simpson to sugar coat that poisonous pill [until the day she died ] .. and for Marman to be so utterly confused about stuff to then write a book that starts off with telling other people that Guru Ajan was writing about what he knew of the "Eckankar teachings back in time" ... is the lowest of the iow.
It's an act similar to the force feeding of geese to make a super pate to sell the rich french aristocrats .. force feeding and corralling people into that box created out of thin air and lies by Twitchell about this stuff. Material that again he took and edited to his own purposes and ideas. But again the "ideas" shared by Goldsmith or whoever and shared again by Twitchell are in themselves fine and good or not. It's still better to credit real people for they said or taught, and to analysis and select from that freely if one wishes too ... but it's always best to credit and tell folks who the source/s are than not.
It's this thing I call the "Box creating" and the rationalisation of that choice that Twitchell made that I can't agree with ... for it turns many people in autobots and head trips ... it is not freeing it is a mental prison ..... it is not wisdom charity nor freedom. Especially when that "story" is reconstructed into a formal "organisation" then a company, then corporation and then a "religion" pulling in tax breaks and shit .. that's silly.
Now there's big deal about accepting a spiritual hierarchy, and astral entities, or whatever , of planes and lords and rulers and energies and light and sound and all that .... and the mind mechanics and intuition and inspiration, and far out dreams and even inner soul travel .. that's all fine and good .. it is still the untrue box that is the problem here .. and trying to to shore it up by declaring .. hoi all those "other teachers" were fine and good but hey, Rebazar .. now he is the man man .... and he's been at it for like 500+ years // and has carried the flame for Guru Nanak to when dear old Paul was born on a river boat by some cheap unmarried mother his dad threw a leg over is even worse than anything i have mentioned above.
Marman and Patti can crow about how wonderful Paul was and all the positive things he did and the warm attention he got from the many many who joined and so on ... and those who got a lot out of it and others who didn't (that happens with anything, some people can't fit the program for any number of reasons ) that box is still crappola, and even if all up 1, or 2 or even 3 million people at some point joined eckankar, obviously because they found it worth joining is all well and good ... yet the reality is that that same 1, 2 or 3 million people have all quit along the way ... at least 99% of them have .. and the box is still the box, if anything it is smaller more tighter restricting box than it ever was ... and god that's even obvious from 1987 to 1995 to 2000 to today ...
take away the box (the myths and rules) and all you got is an anti-social dude who spent his life reading others "ideas" and yet also getting inspired and over time "typing it all out" or getting a blue highlight pen and making "key summary points" he liked and "believed in" or that confirmed what other shad said ... and made sense to him ... and then pretended decades later that box existed and it told him ...
everyone recognises things that "ring true" to them ... and every human has dreams, and memories, and ideals, and values, and they flock together, and along the way we all do our own culling by default on auto anyway ...
and if goldsmith also "plagiarised" verbatim or culled others ideas that he presented in his eternal way teachings, and so it's ok that twitch did the same and also made this compelling box which "looked different" or "more true" and yet sounded like all these other known "masters" and "experts" and spiritual "celebrities" of the past ..... and then he claimed simultaneously that these were all amateurs really not the real deal at all ... for the real deal was in fact the box all along where rt and ss were the ones that taught goldsmith and guru arjan but they just didnt know that or the whole story until rt dictated it all to twitchell ...
when in actual fact it was the other way around - twitchell was standing on the shoulders of hundreds upon hundreds of writers and then he culled what he chose to like ... (no different than facebook or twitter today)
""one that will be kept and one that will be rejected. the cull is the set of items rejected during the selection process. the culling process is repeated until the selected group is of proper size and consistency desired.""
and he then "pasted" it verbatim into his "editable word doc" and proceeded to pretend rt said it and ss said it .. and gopal said it .... all these little "summaries" twitchell made (as you mentioned above) got out his sticky tape and made it all into a box ... the great box spoke to twitchell and told him he had to make the great sacrifice of being the new age messiah of the day ordained by the box to bring the only "true" word of god to mankind ... woohoo !!!
it ends up that people are sold a crock, where the box is far more important than the "summaries" / knowledge it contains .. and when i read a bit of that healing book by goldsmith, i saw no box .. but just the ideas there and they just "rang true" ( abit about no good evil just the god power ... ala twitches no power letter .... )
twitchell didnt need to say anything about where he got his ideas and copied texts from .. he could have just said it ... like goldsmith said .. not some "entity" from across the universes just to teach the twitch get the box built.
read goldsmith or schure and it is what it is ... you cannot read twitchell or klemp gross radhasoami and others without that box ..... it actually changes everything good about goldsmith and schure imho ...
the other problem for twitchell was his sloppiness and lack of care about all kinds of things; where he missed loads of stuff that needed culling not including ... and telling the truth about his ideas and inspirations and his sources of inspiration as they actually were and not what the great box said they were .... is a psychic crime and someone needed to tell him hoi, that's unethical that bs that's an incompetent way to present your "writings and beliefs" when that their box is absolute bs and you know .. he didn't have to lie about anything ...
and if this box is so great then where are all the 1, 2 , 3 million every where praising it openly ... and backing the ideals at least, and why is that people like QUOC go absolutely off the wall .. in a seriously bad way.
why is it that some people are still out there talking to friends or writing notes on internet website pages that 20 , 30 , 40 years ago when they were exposed to eckankar in their life that all this crazy shit went down connected with it and his and whatever - people genuinely traumatized by the box and it's protectors against evil ..... an evil the box says doesn't even exist ... then next page with text from some other authors says it does exist and be careful watch out - doomed without the mahanta who people see as klemp (in their experiences and dreams and whatever )
people do get confused, His are teaching who have never had an oobe or soul travel or met a master on the inner ... and some believe the box must be perfect so they should be too ... and pretend and many start to believe that therefore they must be too.
twitchell spent all this energy pointing out all the bs errors in all the other boxes and said . hey read rumi, but forget the cultural islam bits iow their box, and all the other boxes, see there 's this long part of it that 'kinda the same' and so i culled everything out i didn't like agree with ... because i twitchell can say this 1000 ties better than kirpal or sawan or jonson or brunton or goldsmith .. they get bogged down in "details" i'll just lay out the "summary of it" no 3 hour meditations needed, cull that ... blah blah ....
and then he created this giant box to stick all his copied writings into and the add-on 10% which was his own ideas adn connecting "ideas/methods" together best he could and simply ended up with just another restrictive box that created separation not 'harmony' and praise by criticisms, and paranoia, and dishonesty to cover up the "inconsistencies he knew was in his "stories" all his umms and aaaahs in his talks trying to keep the "story" consistent and couldn;t ...
gail the 21 year old know nothing went wow paul that sounds so great, or trying this idea works great .. wow ur so amazing ..... on top of that he simply didnt have that much respect he advertised himself at, because he just lied and lied and talked all kinds of crap in public along the way.
suddenly the box was the important aspect not the original "ideas" he had collected from all these other writers teachers books paths etc .... nor his own real life experiences of ups and downs ... if you didn't have rt appearing and giving to you when walking the beach front, there must be something wrong with you, not doing ur SE's or being influenced by the Kal or worse an knowing agent of the Kal to undermine the the box and the great leader, and thus were a danger to all of the box and then the paranoia and "gossip" really kicks in among the group.
Klemp has called that "cleaning out the weeds from the garden of eck" - i think he's mad saying shit like that.
or belittling people publicly in talks (not by name but who would he spoke of them if they heard his comments) who were so off the rails they imagined they'd been made the next lem and had to go to Chanhassen and discuss the hand over with Klemp ... like they're like that because the stuff fed to them about that box ....
or as one woman told her own story that a hi/resa told her parents that she had seriously evil past lives and they needed to get rid of her, so that night she was shipped off to her grandmothers and practically disowned by her parents as being of the kal and irredeemably evil.
and people like QUOC believed they had this special protection of the lem, and therefore they just knew what was happening wasn't some mental problem but astral entities burrowing into his head, and astral entities swearing at him one minute and telling him he's the real lem but he knows they are lying .. and why didn't you heal me of this issue LEM 1 year later??? you must be a fraud .... but still the guy has these things happening but believes he's not crazy/ill and in need of help.
this kinds of things are not kept a record of by local satsang societies .. they only ever send in the good news of how many turned up today to hear about the box ....
oh well that's a long rave over what was a rather uncomplicated subject goldsmith and similarities with twitchells writings.
was goldsmith ever accused of plagiarism? Alice Bailey? Guy Ballard? Haanel? Schure? brunton? i dont know .. but Blavatsky was .. and LTG III has buckets of plagiarism .. it's everywhere, all his books and discourses, and even iwl letters and his talks (more or less as they are based on same material) ---
I think (guessing musing) at some point twitchell realised he'd made a bit of a mess of things. and things were a real mess when the membership rapidly increased in after IMSIAF came out [ by that lying dead shit Brad Steiger ] .... he clearly didn't have the skills wherewithal to run a large organisation ... or plan ahead well. not his forte at all. :-)
But as a liar and a fraud he was first class operator .. though so incompetent he couldn't do it well enough not to get busted .. and busted he did .. and ever since people have left eckankar in their droves
no, over the fact the plagiarism is there ... but because that lack of integrity bled through out everything to do with Eckankar and fucked it from the start .. to today and it will never recover and it will never be anything of value in this world or to the people sucked into the bullshit that it is.
Eckankar is not and never has been a religion - it should be officially removed as such in all nations on earth
and instead be treated like it actually is - a mythical fraud perpetrated on innocent people through the intentional and knowing use of false pretences and perhaps even criminal conspiracy of participants going all the way back to Paul & Gail Twitchell...... up to today's leadership under Harold.
Who knows for certain? People are surely entitled to a view and have a right to ask questions. Things that undermined and stressed Darwin was all being driven by the plagiarism and thence the need to obfuscate, deny, and not look at it. LTG III is something that triggered his downfall in 1983. Arguments between he and Klemp surrounded each of them "quoting verbatim" Paul's writings not realising (nor believing at the time) it was all basically copied and made up anyway. The plagiarism was involved in the death and estate court case of Helen Frye and Eckankar. David Lane arising was much about copying others writings .. and then behind it all was the other deception of twitchell's own life and claims about his "training" which simply could notbe true .... plagiarism and other deceptions that has undermined Eckankar's credibility for decades. And while there may not be much 'excitement or drama' over that now as in the past it still there ... will always be there. And probably never dealt with openly or honestly. Which is a shame ...people deserve we each deserve better imho.
Etznab
Jun 24, 2015, 8:39:42 AM6/24/15
to
"No one would have an issue about some one writing things they remembered,and writing about it in a book, even if they didn't recall it exactly right in who said it,or recall it accurately ... that to me is normal human behaviour, and where the notion of you can't 'copyright ideas' comes from ... because we are all a mishmash of memories, as well as faulty memories.... and many of those memories are 'ideas'.
"But to go further and actually sit and copy someone's stuff verbatim, whether the bible or kabir hundreds of years ago, or goldsmith in the 1960s and then claim sugmad told you, or rebazar tazrs said it, or say rumi said to me when on the 9th plane xyz ... and it's all so 'compelling' and enjoyable for the reader is a bs unethical crappy thing to pretend to be a 'master' the highest consciousness on earth, and that it was ss & rt who taught you everything you know, is just spiritually unethical .... not the act itself but the false frame created the box this whole 'story' by pt forces people to fit into .... and accept.
I also agree that it is unethical and "evil" ...
"The whole overplay of 'secret teachings' via the eck hierarchy is just silly and unnecessary, imho. Well we can't say everything due to 'bad/evil/' agents of the kal - look rt said that here in this discourse by pt ..... is a load of utter crap when then puts a TM and Copyright upon it ... and then says its these Eckankar teachings that have always existed but now it's safe to let them out into the world publicly .. because the Eck masters said so .. is more than crap it is 'evil' and utterly unethical on any level ... could even be a psychic crime to lay this out like that, IMHO."
I agree that organized religions have borrowed, repackaged and plagiarized history ... creating monsters in the process and setting people one against the other as people try to make sense of the madness. What I think is the most evil and, perhaps, a psychic crime (messing with people's heads) is the continued denial of the truth (by religious enthusiasts like donkeys after carrots) in spite of scientific, tangible evidence proving the truth beyond a reasonable doubt.
Paul Twitchell claimed that Rebazar Tarzs spoke to him and that, to the best of his memory, Paul wrote down what Rebazar Tarzs said. Paul even went so far as putting Rebazar's words in quotation marks. Now if Paul were using a pencil to write all of this down ... and if Rebazar Tarzs were not really there to "go slow" and it was information coming to Paul's mind as if from "the inner" then how did Paul remember all of this? How could Paul appear to have an almost photographic memory to write paragraphs and chapters - many words verbatim - and inserting Eckankar trademarked terms?
The most logical explanation - and I highly suspect closer actual truth - was that
1.) Someone checked books out of the library (leaving a seal of approval in the ones they liked).
2.) Someone took the books home and kept them in their private study where also the typewriter was located.
3.) Someone opened the books and began to type words they liked, culling in manuscript form material for someone else's own books!
Gold miners mine gold, but Paul - the "Master Compiler" - appears to have gone along the line someplace to have created a mythology of "Eckankar" masters and pseudo history / religion (along with that actually true) of what was called "Eckankar" teachings. Evidently then, lawyers, advisers or counselors came into the picture and gave legal endorsement to what Paul had done ... everything - all the profit - later put under the umbrella of a "non-profit religious organization called Eckankar" for the most part.
So what happens when Harold and Doug talk about a "growing list" of borrowed, or plagiarized material?
Better yet, What happens when Eckankar members encounter the growing list? What happens when Eckankar members learn that their beloved Eckankar "teachings" - in the form of many words in many books ... and that they paid many dollars for - already existed in another book and under another name? What happens when the members of Eckankar - ones not easily fooled again - look at supposed words of Rebazar Tarzs and others appearing identical to those by other authors who wrote books that Paul Twitchell was most likely familiar (maybe even mentioned them in Letters to Gail)?
What happens - some of what happens - is what happened right here at a.r.e. and on other groups with literalists arguing with non-literalists about the actual truth regarding origins for the Eckankar writings, teachings and beliefs.
Sean, please don't delete this post and thread. I think it is one of the better ones; but is long and I haven't read it all yet. Left off here:
Henosis Sage
Jun 24, 2015, 9:27:01 AM6/24/15
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oops urls
started as a response to a post by Etznab on the thread "Beyond Power LTG III
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/pyueAhsEWVQ/wXn_qOe1ROYJ
plus here - Thunder of Silence quotes?
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/9Nc2-f6feqs/cgZhofLEHo8J
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