Is Rebazar Tarzs a "mental implant" ?

[Etznab]

Why this question?

Julian Johnson, Swami Vivekananda, Louis Lavelle, Talbot Mundy, Ali Nomad, Neville Goddard, Joel S. Goldsmith, Charles Haanel, Brown Landone, etc. ...

Paul Twitchell could easily have referenced the writers and writings (see above) used for his books. (Maybe he did ... at some point early on? It's possible.) However, by the time I encountered Eckankar, Paul Twitchell's books were talking about meetings with Rebazar Tarzs.

The list of authors given above are only those who's writings I have seen to be similar / or exact to what Paul Twitchell claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said to him, or told him to write.

Here they are again.

Julian Johnson, Swami Vivekananda, Louis Lavelle, Talbot Mundy, Ali Nomad, Neville Goddard, Joel S. Goldsmith, Charles Haanel, Brown Landone, etc. ...

In some cases similarities are so many sentences. In other cases it's paragraph after paragraph, or verging on whole chapters.

So why didn't / doesn't Eckankar cite those authors and their written works, but Rebazar Tarzs instead? Is it because they (like myself and probably almost everybody else) were / are unaware of the extent to which Paul Twitchell appropriated written materials by other people?

Maybe? Maybe not?

In this day and age the list is growing. The list is growing so large that I want to ask the question: Is Rebazar Tarzs some sort of "mental implant"?

Pseudo event, or pseudo history might be a better label ... I'm not sure what to call it. There are probably well over fifty paragraphs in The Key to Eckankar
said to come from Rebazar Tarzs that appear near and / or exact to what already existed in books by other authors years before Paul Twitchell coined the term "Eckankar".

So what is Rebazar Tarzs? If not a mental implant, then what? Was it Paul Twitchell's conscience that told him what to compile and write? Was there any type of spiritual guide (known, or unknown by Paul Twitchell) behind his own actions?

In any case, the other night I entertained the possibility that "Rebazar Tarzs" - and the ways he was described by Paul Twitchell - could possibly amount to so many mental implants.

I don't expect everyone to understand this perspective. Someday though the Net might show the full extent of writings attributed to Rebazar Tarzs, along with the authors and books similar and / or exact. It really presents a most unusual picture when one gets to see it for one's self. To date I don't really imagine many people have seen the amount of compiled words that I have seen. Some day though the world is going to see it and I think people are going to want the truth. So this is why I am doing the research. To stay ahead of the game. I'm already at the stage of helping people to know the truth. Something I started to do more than five years ago, but only recently learned the best way to do it. I will let people see things for themselves!

***

"The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. - Practicing the Presence

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time." - The Key to Eckankar

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit

[Jon Thorpe]

i MUST point out that there is a terribly HUge difference between plagiarisms and a Master not existing at all, and proving that the conversations given in the books have at times been plagiarizations, that by NO means suggests even remotely that Rebazar Tarzs doesnt exist, nor does the idea of a mental implant explain how in the world people that have never heard of Eckankar or Sant Mat, or Radhasoami, or any other Eastern Sound and Light path see him in their inner worlds...im well aware of what former students and anti personal claim on this matter, but i also know that theyre absolutely wrong about their assumption. i spent 5 years of my life living with proof of this, an ex wide who also saw Rebezar and had NO friggin idea who he was or what Eckankar was....not even possible for such a person to have this mental implant supposedly created by PT, just saying, there simply is NO way for that to happen. so while conversations with Rebezar may not have happened as claimed in those books, that in no way suggest that none happened at all, or that any that did werent real or were simply imagined, just saying, this i consider to be plain and common sense. undeniable in fact.

[Jon Thorpe]

On Monday, November 26, 2012 9:17:57 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:

[Etznab]

"... not even possible for such a person to have this mental implant supposedly created by PT, just saying, there simply is NO way for that to happen."

Really? There is no way? Have you checked the patent office?

[Santim Vah]

Putting all that aside, added in a general sense about variations in peoples inner experiences and beliefs and so on. ... been trying to find a short way to put it

Seems to me the main point by JT was the writings or opinions about them cant change one's own spiritual/inner experiences.. and for sure, I agree too. (did I miss saying that before? ) and everyone's spiritual beliefs should be respected too.

The actual writings of Paul and how that happened is one subject on it's own imho.

A second subject is everyone's own personal spiritual inner experiences understanding and their beliefs philosophy etc etc. Covering uncountable numbers and variations.

... these should be kept as two totally separate subjects imho.

not sure how, but it sounds like a good idea. :)

but enough of me .. chow

[Etznab]

On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 3:20:27 PM UTC-6, johnr...@gmail.com wrote:

> Etznab wrote:
>
> In this day and age the list is growing. The list is growing so large that I want to ask the question: Is Rebazar Tarzs some sort of "mental implant"?
>

> ----------------------------------
>
> Jon Thorpe wrote
>
> ...plagiarizations...by NO means suggests...Rebazar Tarzs doesnt exist, nor does the idea of a mental implant explain how in the world people that have never heard of Eckankar or Sant Mat, or Radhasoami, or any other Eastern Sound and Light path see him in their inner worlds...common sense....
>
> ----------------------------------
>
> JR supplicates with petty alms and genuflexion in the voice of a drunken Forest Gump:
>
> ...common sense is a product expernience...
>
>
>
> Etznab is not being honest when he says he is asking the question if Rebazar Tarz is a mental implant. His rhetorical question is intended to be a mental implant on the ashsumption the readers here are ash naive as he. Etznab's hidden postulate that Rebazar Tarz is looking for agreement from those (his hidden list) who have common sense. Etz's pattern of logic works the same context as the James Warren Jones 909 did in reacting to the Congressman Ryan's Jesuit witch-hunt.
>
>
>
> Leo Ryan's high school
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campion_High_School
>
>
>
> Leo Ryan's university (note its date of establishment after Pope Pius IX cursed freedom of conscience and liberty in 1864)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creighton_University
>
>
>
> Jesuit conspirator Ryan's infiltration of public education with catholic ideology where he subtly influenced young minds to become true believers in the Vatican's universal humanism....
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capuchino_High_School
>
>
>
> So EtZ, put your hair belt on under your pajamas. Contemplate the stations of misery you want Eckankar to adopt..and..with your Jesuit mental implants under your pillow and give Rebazar Tarz an invite to comment, if you have any panache.
>
>
>
> Here is a little motivation for you:
>
> http://www.lermanet2.com/house/destructive.htm
>
>
>
> No need to burn heretics tied to a post if we can get them to drink cyanide grape drink...or buy guns...and become a cult with a death wish to go up in flaming gelled gasoline like Waco?
>
>
>
> Forget it. Eckankar and Rebazar Tarz are as real as you, but do not use me as a crutch to prove it to yourself.

Concerning word for word paragraphs by Rebazar Tarzs matching texts written in the early 1900s (and before Paul Twitchell coined the term Eckankar and it was founded in 1965) does this mean that other authors got their information from Rebazar Tarzs? I'm not sure how that can be, when in Rebazar Tarzs' versions there are Eckankar terms that weren't being used until the 1960s.

I'm just not sure what people are meaning by the claim Rebazar Tarzs is real & at the same time so much of what he told Paul Twitchell to write had evidently already been written by other people at a time when Paul Twitchell was only a child.

So I would love to hear any theories about how the other authors and their books could have come by way of Rebazar Tarzs in the early 1900s. Assuming that Rebazar Tarzs is real.



 

[Santim Vah]

>
>
> Concerning word for word paragraphs by Rebazar Tarzs matching texts written in the early 1900s (and before Paul Twitchell coined the term Eckankar and it was founded in 1965) does this mean that other authors got their information from Rebazar Tarzs? I'm not sure how that can be, when in Rebazar Tarzs' versions there are Eckankar terms that weren't being used until the 1960s.
>
>
>
> I'm just not sure what people are meaning by the claim Rebazar Tarzs is real & at the same time so much of what he told Paul Twitchell to write had evidently already been written by other people at a time when Paul Twitchell was only a child.
>
>
>
> So I would love to hear any theories about how the other authors and their books could have come by way of Rebazar Tarzs in the early 1900s. Assuming that Rebazar Tarzs is real.

---

I really don't think any of that matters. AT the end of the day it only ends up being a theory or a rationalisation. People have their theories and beliefs about all kinds of things. What people think about things they know nothing (or very little about or not actually qualified to judge) doesn't really matter. or shouldn't.

Especially the theories and opinions about yourself, and how it's all your fault for being yourself, for asking questions, for finding things others never found, and it's your fault for mentioning that Paul heavily plagiarised the writings of others in every eckankar book and discourse he ever wrote whilst placing those words into the mouths of eck masters and dieties in the god worlds.

Seems to me that it's Paul who is responsible for his own choices and actions not you or anyone else. That people can't deal with that, can't understand it, can't explain it rationally, can't find peace with it, or cant deal with the possible logical questions that might arise about that, isn't your problem either.

Anyway it seems self-evident that RT and many others didn't actually talk to Paul or share the information in the text as it was described by Paul in his books and talks.

I think it's a waste of time to go contemplate where the original sources authors got their ideas and information from, and especially counter-productive to bring RT into it. It's just not related, completely separate issues and individual totally unrelated historical events to Paul's writings and how he presented the teachings to others, imho.

eg Anton Tonz presents his teachings in this way:

"But always his appearance is unmistakable: A tall, powerful stature, short, curly hair and lush beard with dark hair, bushy eyebrows and a clear brown eyes. His face with slightly Asian features appear strict and kind at the same time. Its age is estimated at about 45 years. Most of his students, he appears in a brown monk's habit, similar to those worn in Christian Order. His face remains mostly concealed.

"Almost all wisdom teaching was and is under the influence of Shri Jâmbavan.

"Under him, all major spiritual figures of the past have been trained. He was the invisible masters of Imhotep, the great architect, scholars and priests in ancient Egypt as well as that of Moses, of Isaiah, the great Hermes Trismeghistos and the many others of which have not most distinguished himself so much in the public , but were no less important, as many earth-shaking changes are due to their action. It was he, for example, who inspired Christopher Columbus to India to look at the opposing ship, and with his help Copernicus received his visionary exhibition of the heliocentric world ...

"Shri Jâmbavan was fundamentally responsible for ensuring that the eternal doctrine came through Christianity in the West. He was the initial force of the religious, spiritual movements in the Middle Ages. Significant Christian religious were supervised by him spiritually and developed, such as learning the great mystic Teresa of Avila, who know him as St. Joseph and she devoted most of her newly founded monasteries.

"On Shri Jâmbavans work likewise the spiritual renewal in the modern era is due. He, together with his monk trained spiritually as Master Morya Helena Blavatsky and was responsible for the formation of the esoteric movement in the last century. It was he who appeared as Rebazar Tarzs the American Paul Twitchell and ushered him through that spiritual renewal that reach the twenty-first century, its ups and more than seven thousand years to determine the spiritual destiny of man is.

"But today, at the turn of the new spiritual era, Shri Jâmbavat is even more inspiration to all spiritual seekers through the eternal lesson of his current students, Anton Tönz, as Akshara Vidya was reformulated for the coming period."

http://www.aksharavidya.net/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=1&idcat=24&idart=29&m=&s=

What's in a name anyway?

It's reported that Kirpal Singh and people talking initiation into Ruhani (including paul and gail) had inner visions, see the masters inner "Radiant Form" and has personal experiences (communications) with Kirpal Singh, Sawan Singh, Jaimal Singh, Somaiji, Salig Ram, Nanak, Kabir, Rumi, Shams, Milarepa, Jesus, St Paul, Hafiz, Buddha, Rama, Krishna, and more

"Some people wonder if the inner planes and masters really exist. They ask if Soamiji or Sawan Singh, or Kirpal Singh just borrowed a names from the Hindus Sikhs and Sufis and Sant Mat history and made them up. Yet people report having met the Radhasoami Masters even before they ever heard of Kirpal Singh or Ruhani Satsang. The RS masters are real."

"Some people wonder if Kuthoomi & El Morya Khan really exists. They ask if Madame Blavatsky just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people report having met the great white brotherhood Masters even before they ever heard of Theosophy. The League and the GWB are real."

"Some people wonder if El Morya Khan and St germain really exists.
They ask if Mark and
Elizabeth Prophet just borrowed a name from the Far East or Theosophy and
made him up. Yet people report having met the I AM Presence AScended Masters
even before they ever heard of Summit Lighthouse. They are real."


"Some people wonder if Babaji Mahavarta really exists. They ask if Lahiri
Mahasaya & Sri Yukteswar Giri & Yogandanda just borrowed a name from the Far
East and made him up. Yet people report having met the Kriya Yoga Masters
even before they ever heard of Self-Realization Fellowship. They are real."

"Some people wonder if Shri Jambavan really exists. They ask if Anton Tonz
just borrowed a name from the Far East or Hinduism and made him up. Yet
people report having met Sri Jambavan and the masters of Shangrila even
before they ever heard of Akshara Vidya. The Akshara Vidya Masters are real."


"Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

"The perfect Master is an incarnation of the Lord. Just as the Lord
communicates His teachings to the Saints without the agency of speech,
similarly, the Saints impart their messages to their disciples by
means of internal experiences, and without the use of speech."

'Like God, the Master does not make use of speech or any material
instrument. He teachers the disciples without speaking.'

"The Master is formless like God and above the sphere of senses. He
instructs his disciples without uttering a word."

Irrespective of the the above, and what each individual may believe accept or reject, comes a complete different matter which is Paul's writings and the stories about his life. It appears clear and self-evident that Paul plagiarised portions of text from other books (more than most people know about), and Harold called him a Master Compiler. imho, things like this stand alone, irrespective of peoples knowledge, beliefs, or opinions about it.

----

I think it is a good idea to know who the sources are for parts of the writings, and I really like Paul Twitchell btw. He did a lot of good, and helped a lot of
people by sharing what he knew and also left a confusing mess behind him as well.

"One only learns by experience how to avoid being caught. If a Jesuit knew
there is a higher ground, he would get there first and have a sheepfold all
ready to herd you into. They are good shepherds, if you like being a sheep.
Their strength consists in thought-propaganda, which is far more powerful
than the spoken or printed word. Propaganda, even when true, is a form of
violence, which is a product of impatience, which in turn is sacrifice to
fear." [....] "

Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy - 1940, p. 23

"But we can rise above it, via ECK. Not even a holy man, a demigod,or any
group can outthink, or outpray a person, if he refuses to meet them on their
own grounds. He should do so only on the higher grounds. One can only learn
by experience how to avoid the traps on any level. If a group-thinker knows
there is a higher ground, he will be there first with a sheepfold all ready
to herd in anyone else who arrives. They are the good shepherds, if you like
being a sheep. Their strength is based on thought-propaganda, which is far
more powerful than the spoken or printed word." [....]

The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell, 1968 - Fifth Printing 2003, pp.
23-24.

[Santim Vah]

Short version ..
"People have a right to their own opinions, but they dont have a right to their own facts."

Pretty sure I plagiarised that! I'm not smart enough to be able to make up things like that on my own. <wink>

[Santim Vah]

The facts are verbatim plagiarisms in the writings, large sections at a time with minor editing changes to suit. Take away Paul's scene setting parts, and at times the entire chapter content has been copied in the same order as another text.

This occurs quite clearly in DWTM, TTF, TFC, TFoG, The Key to Eckankar, IMSIAF, SBTR, The Spiritual Notebook, The Eck Vidya, Herbs the magic healers, SKS 1 & 2, and LTG 1-3, and IW Letters. (that's not a complaint)

Records of examples of some of this is scattered to the four corners of the world, and most of it may not even be online.

Known sources of the above books show that paul was drawing upon writings from a broad cross section of esoteric ideas and teachings; eg Chrisitianity, Sufis, Sikhs, Hindu, Buddhist, Theosophy, New Thought, Christian Science, Radhasoami, Sant Mat, Spiritualist Church, Cabala, Hermeticism, Greek philosophy, Taoism, Scientology, Scientists, 33 degree Freemasons, Rosicrucians, and many other authors like Paul Brunton.

Clearly Paul was suggesting (by default) that in his opinion and experience that these ""sections"" he copied were all OK, true, or whatever .. and had his and RTs or another's OK stamp of approval. iow that he used them in his own books means that he would (normally) stand by these ideas/words as being true/valid or whatever.

To me that means that these other folks must have had quite a few things *right* (according to Paul) in the past too. ... many are reported as being psychic; and they may well have drew from the same main astral library shelf, who knows? :)

It's interesting to me to find out who they were, if it's possible. not sure why i bother though. :)

[Kinpa]

On Dec 9, 9:24 am, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:53:04 PM UTC-6, Jon Thorpe wrote:
> > On Monday, November 26, 2012 9:17:57 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
>
> > > Why this question?
>
> > > Julian Johnson, Swami Vivekananda, Louis Lavelle, Talbot Mundy, Ali Nomad, Neville Goddard, Joel S. Goldsmith, Charles Haanel, Brown Landone, etc. ...
>
> > > Paul Twitchell could easily have referenced the writers and writings (see above) used for his books. (Maybe he did ... at some point early on? It's possible.) However, by the time I encountered Eckankar, Paul Twitchell's books were talking about meetings with Rebazar Tarzs.
>
> > > The list of authors given above are only those who's writings I have seen to be similar / or exact to what Paul Twitchell claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said to him, or told him to write.
>
> > > Here they are again.
>
> > > Julian Johnson, Swami Vivekananda, Louis Lavelle, Talbot Mundy, Ali Nomad, Neville Goddard, Joel S. Goldsmith, Charles Haanel, Brown Landone, etc. ...
>
> > > In some cases similarities are so many sentences. In other cases it's paragraph after paragraph, or verging on whole chapters.
>
> > > So why didn't / doesn't Eckankar cite those authors and their written works, but Rebazar Tarzs instead? Is it because they (like myself and probably almost everybody else) were / are unaware of the extent to which Paul Twitchell appropriated written materials by other people?
>
> > > Maybe? Maybe not?
>
> > > In this day and age the list is growing. The list is growing so large that I want to ask the question: Is Rebazar Tarzs some sort of "mental implant"?
>
> > > Pseudo event, or pseudo history might be a better label ... I'm not sure what to call it. There are probably well over fifty paragraphs in The Key to Eckankar
>
> > > said to come from Rebazar Tarzs that appear near and / or exact to what already existed in books by other authors years before Paul Twitchell coined the term "Eckankar".
>
> > > So what is Rebazar Tarzs? If not a mental implant, then what? Was it Paul Twitchell's conscience that told him what to compile and write? Was there any type of spiritual guide (known, or unknown by Paul Twitchell) behind his own actions?
>
> > > In any case, the other night I entertained the possibility that "Rebazar Tarzs" - and the ways he was described by Paul Twitchell - could possibly amount to so many mental implants.
>
> > > I don't expect everyone to understand this perspective. Someday though the Net might show the full extent of writings attributed to Rebazar Tarzs, along with the authors and books similar and / or exact. It really presents a most unusual picture when one gets to see it for one's self. To date I don't really imagine many people have seen the amount of compiled words that I have seen. Some day though the world is going to see it and I think people are going to want the truth. So this is why I am doing the research. To stay ahead of the game. I'm already at the stage of helping people to know the truth. Something I started to do more than five years ago, but only recently learned the best way to do it. I will let people see things for themselves!
>
> > > ***
>
> > > "The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. - Practicing the Presence
>

> > >http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joe...

>
> > > "Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time." - The Key to Eckankar
>

> > >https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlL...

>
> > i MUST point out that there is a terribly HUge difference between plagiarisms and a Master not existing at all, and proving that the conversations given in the books have at times been plagiarizations, that by NO means suggests even remotely that Rebazar Tarzs doesnt exist, nor does the idea of a mental implant explain how in the world people that have never heard of Eckankar or Sant Mat, or Radhasoami, or any other Eastern Sound and Light path see him in their inner worlds...im well aware of what former students and anti personal claim on this matter, but i also know that theyre absolutely wrong about their assumption. i spent 5 years of my life living with proof of this, an ex wide who also saw Rebezar and had NO friggin idea who he was or what Eckankar was....not even possible for such a person to have this mental implant supposedly created by PT, just saying, there simply is NO way for that to happen. so while conversations with Rebezar may not have happened as claimed in those books, that in no way suggest that none happened at all, or that any that did werent real or were simply imagined, just saying, this i consider to be plain and common sense. undeniable in fact.
>
> "... not even possible for such a person to have this mental implant supposedly created by PT, just saying, there simply is NO way for that to happen."
>
> Really? There is no way? Have you checked the patent office?

yes, i have in fact, so youre simply going to HAVE to provide more
evidence, you havent a leg to stand upon in this one.i know my own
inner worlds and every single thing that occurs there, and while i
admit that hardly means anything to you or anyone else, it still IS
just the same lol. and to hell with the patent office, lets use common
sense instead, do you routinely allow anyone to put mental constructs
into your field of experience or vision?? i do not, so forgive me if i
assumed you operated on the same basic characteristics as i do, i can
see this is not necessarily so, though that doesnt make any sense to
me, seems inefficient. if your view sees these things differently than
i, so be it, i wasnt contending to be the absolutely correct version
of things, but i doubt that you can either, so either way it ends the
same, with a draw. if your own experience shows mental images placed
there, i'd be interested to see them, because i sim,y dont see
anything causing that effect on me.

[Kinpa]

i wasnt aware of anyone being claimed as being RebezarTarzs, but then
again, i dont much care either, if by this you mean that all early
20th century so called tibetan masters or ascended masters, and that
PT simply used THAT basic master concept to create Rebezar, i'd say
hold your opinion until you gain the evidence, otherwise it's pure
supposition, and there simply is NO way to get around that one, you
can NOT cross out the possibility of such a human being existing, so
deal with it, the possibility will always exist, regardless of what
may or may not be proven about it in any way, none of us are able to
address this question in ANY way that would have meaning to the others
here reading it. Its all subjective. Each can and will believe what
they choose, and perhaps what they experience, but in any and every
case, it will BE whatever it is to each individual, independent of any
other. THAT is what perception is ALL about. all the differences and
peaks and valleys are simply ways to gauge events, various parts of
the whole, but regardless one still never sees the Whole until they
stop and look at It. In most cases talk is cheap lol, useless even,
but as you will...

[Santim Vah]

On Thursday, December 13, 2012 4:38:43 AM UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:
> On Dec 11, 6:45 pm, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 3:20:27 PM UTC-6, johnr...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Etznab wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >  In this day and age the list is growing. The list is growing so large that I want to ask the question: Is Rebazar Tarzs some sort of "mental implant"?
>
> >



>

> > So I would love to hear any theories about how the other authors and their books could have come by way of Rebazar Tarzs in the early 1900s. Assuming that Rebazar Tarzs is real.
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> i wasnt aware of anyone being claimed as being RebezarTarzs, but then
>
> again, i dont much care either, if by this you mean that all early
>
> 20th century so called tibetan masters or ascended masters, and that
>
> PT simply used THAT basic master concept to create Rebezar, i'd say
>
> hold your opinion until you gain the evidence, otherwise it's pure
>
> supposition, and there simply is NO way to get around that one, you
>
> can NOT cross out the possibility of such a human being existing, so
>
> deal with it, the possibility will always exist, regardless of what
>
> may or may not be proven about it in any way, none of us are able to
>
> address this question in ANY way that would have meaning to the others
>
> here reading it. Its all subjective. Each can and will believe what
>
> they choose, and perhaps what they experience, but in any and every
>
> case, it will BE whatever it is to each individual, independent of any
>
> other. THAT is what perception is ALL about. all the differences and
>
> peaks and valleys are simply ways to gauge events, various parts of
>
> the whole, but regardless one still never sees the Whole until they
>
> stop and look at It. In most cases talk is cheap lol, useless even,
>
> but as you will...

hi,

RE

" Its all subjective. Each can and will believe what
they choose, and perhaps what they experience, but in any and every
case, it will BE whatever it is to each individual, independent of any
other."

Yes, sounds about right imho.

RE
.."THAT is what perception is ALL about. all the differences and

peaks and valleys are simply ways to gauge events, various parts of
the whole,"

that's a nice line. not that there's anything wrong in looking at the various parts as well as the whole. which i think takes a lot more than simply stopping and taking a squiz at IT, a *look*. :)

RE

" if by this you mean that all early
20th century so called tibetan masters or ascended masters, and that

PT simply used THAT basic master concept to create Rebezar,..."

I wonder why only put it that one way? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse, because I don't recall anyone else suggesting a theory (or claiming) that that was the case. anything is possible, in theory. Etz was asking straight questions imho (answers unknown)

etznab said before:

" Concerning word for word paragraphs by Rebazar Tarzs matching texts written in the early 1900s (and before Paul Twitchell coined the term Eckankar and it was founded in 1965) does this mean that other authors got their information from Rebazar Tarzs? "

and

"So I would love to hear any theories about how the other authors and their books could have come by way of Rebazar Tarzs in the early 1900s. Assuming that Rebazar Tarzs is real."

AND

"Why this question?

Julian Johnson, Swami Vivekananda, Louis Lavelle, Talbot Mundy, Ali Nomad, Neville Goddard, Joel S. Goldsmith, Charles Haanel, Brown Landone, etc. ...

Paul Twitchell could easily have referenced the writers and writings (see above) used for his books. (Maybe he did ... at some point early on? It's possible.) However, by the time I encountered Eckankar, Paul Twitchell's books were talking about meetings with Rebazar Tarzs.

The list of authors given above are only those who's writings I have seen to be similar / or exact to what Paul Twitchell claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said to him, or told him to write. "

all Questions, iow.

If PT is only giving *credit* to RT, as suggested by Doug many times, for say "leading him to see this info was good right etc" and thus using RT as a convenient "Literary peg device" as he wrote out his books and ideas, then um, to date Eckankar (or HK) has never said (or hinted at subtly) such a thing themselves.

Nevertheless, it doesn't change the many examples of verbatim plagiarising and copying/reuse of text from older existing books as well as Paul reusing his own earlier texts and re-writing them slightly and having another eck master speak them a second or third time.

If all of this kind of thing was simply literary devices, or licence, then fine, but no one in eckanakr has ever said it was this, or partly this, or that RT did not really personally say all those words to Paul .. it was his writing MO .. how he presented the info only ... and no RT didn't really say all the words credited to him by paul in his writings ... and yes paul copied others writings and put those words into eck masters mouths which didnt really happen ... yet Eckankar has never really said much at all about such questions, one way or another.

that maybe why they persist, and why more and more plagiarisms keep coming to light?

ah, the rest is waffle .. :)

===

"There are probably well over fifty paragraphs in The Key to Eckankar" = 25% of about 200 paragraphs recently recorded.

TKTE book was being written/published in 1968 btw, but (fictionally) set in *hindsight* historically at Seattle in 1963ish... reading the KTE is interesting .. here is Rebazar tazrs speaking to PT ... this is foundational ideas for Eckankar in 1968 - this was "Something NEW" in 1968 - direct from Rebazar tarzs to the Chela via Paul.

"You see, the perfect way is difficult only for those who pick
and choose. Do not like, do not dislike, and all shall be clear. Make
the hairsbreadth of a distinction and then all heaven and earth will
be set apart from you."

I said, "You are talking about a doctrine beyond time and space.
I am limited in talking about this with others. None understand,
but they want to pull me into their cults, sects, and churches.
Wherever I go there is tne same story: 'I will save you in my
church or cult.' 'Salvation lies only within my church.' I cannot
see where God allows any group to be ITS sole representative in
this physical universe."

RT goes on ..
R.~.r..•:;."God never established a definite group for the liberation of
. I man. IT has given the power to many for the particular way to
"" ITS kingdom. There are certain paths that one must follow, some
better than others, because the masters of these particular ways
have developed resources for their chelas to use in seeking the way.
This is because men are on various levels of consciousness and
not all can follow one universal way.

"Now, your failure to find many who can or will discuss truth
is because those minds dwell in time and space and cannot understand
the universality of the heavenly worlds. You are too far
beyond all of them, and not even the so-called favorites in the
churches and metaphysical groups can grasp what you are saying.

"What we are talking about here is the many secrets of truth.
Mainly, that God, the Void, the Nameless, or whatever you call
IT, is unconditional and has a specializing power for man to use
by his mind as Soul. Many have used it to harm others through
the use of the lower force without being detected. All religious
history is filled with this form of physical death. It goes on all
around us, and the news often reports that a person dies without
apparent cause.

"Every holy man, every saint, monk, priest, and even you and
I, practiced the use of this power in some lifetime to extinguish
an enemy or two. The discovery by any individual that he can
control and use this force makes it so fascinating in the beginning
that he experiments without discretion. Joseph of Copertino used
it for this purpose until he discovered that levitation was less
harmful.

"One can easily become a spiritual criminal unless he gets
control of himself and grants others the freedom that he would
grant himself. Any guru, holy man, saint, or master finding his
chela using this force for the wrong purposes would certainly stop
him. The chela might even be punished severely, as was Milarepa,
the great Tibetan saint, who was punished by his master for
misusing the power as black magic.

"You have been under attack many times by those who dislike
you. One was a yogi who pressed so hard that you turned to fight
back through the power of the beaming ray. He was driven off
and has never come back. One pseudoteacher tried to attack you
but failed too, for the force was turned back on him; as a result,
his whole organization went downhill.

"There have been other incidents and persons who have tried
to harm you but failed because you are protected by the divine
Spirit of God, as all holy people are. The people who try this
cannot stand the Light of God shining through you."

I interrupted, "Life has become somewhat of a struggle since
I came into the full scope of spirituality; not because of its beauty,
nor the love or knowledge that one gains, but because of the
separation from others that it causes. Suddenly I have found
myself in a different world, alone and without the fellowship of
others. They criticize if I speak about my insights into life. The
world turns against such a person simply because he tells what
he knows of God."

Rebazar Tarzs continued: "All those who devote their lives to
God become harassed. They cannot tell their inner thoughts to
others, unless they are willing to pay the penalty. But you also
know the other side of the coin: If people are good to you, love
you, and think highly of you, they become a source of well-being
in this world. This is true of all who treat the spiritually chosen
ones of God with respect."

I said, "I wonder who really loves. I see too much of mankind
fighting. There is such a lack of love in this world!"

Rebazar Tarzs replied, "I know this, and it is a part of the
penalty we pay for being lovers of God. I do not attemptto explain
man's behavior in terms of the human consciousness alone. To say
that mankind is highly altruistic leads straight down the sylvan
path of Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Some say that man lives only for
the survival of all mankind. But when applied to the world, this
is not practical. Man must live for love alone."

I said, "Many have gone through the same struggle and agony
who are not yet spiritual giants, but they are nevertheless on the
path of God. We must have patience."

Rebazar Tarzs continued, "Patience is the greatest virtue of the
human state of mind!"

I said, "I keep finding that happiness comes in progressive
waves, and in the gradual assimilation of the Godlike and the
perfect."

Rebazar Tarzs said, "True. The Godman points the way and
shows love in doing so, as you will soon know, for you will be
recognized as the Godman in this present life.

"Each man's world is solidified thought, or materialized mind
stuff. The idea is to bring into expression the good and beautiful.
This is done by getting the good and beautiful properly arranged
in the consciousness.

"One of the beliefs that we must discard is
the belief in the Law of Cause and Effect, if we are to move
directly into expression. This law states if you do a certain thing,
or perform a certain action, you will reap the result of the deed
or action as a consequence. Some call it the Law of Balance. Some
say it is a law of nature. Many feel that they are in bondage to
this law.

end quote .. pages 11-13

That is PT via RT laying down some of the teachings of eckankar in 1968.

Some of it was also said "verbatim" in the same order by others long before in their own books, books that Paul had read.

The many examples appear to be clear cases of wholesale plagiarisms alongside representing the same basic ideas of these other authors and philosophies in his own words.

Nevertheless Paul suggests in book after book that this is RT dictating to him the teachings of eckankar, and he's recording it... the *teachings* iow because he was asked to give it out ... and That's fine.

Maybe all the other authors also had access to the Astral library as HK suggests was the case for Julian J and Paul Brunton (user of the literary Peg Device).

Maybe as Doug suggests in his chp 12 that it's the Mahanta Consciousness touching all these various people and then they talk and write about it. Or maybe it's all the being RT going in different forms and appearances and influencing people thru the 1800s to now to do xyz or write xyz or appear before them .. .. read lots of books etc, and then re-present the info in more universal non-sectarian terms .. who knows? Eckankar doesn't say.

It's also a fact that a large number of people were/are affected (including HK) finding out that much of PTs material was plagiarised from a whole lot of other people, and that what eckankar has said about it isn't very clear info at all, and doesn't seem to have helped any of these folks much, if at all.

It's also a fact that things Paul wrote about others incl Kirpal singh, were later changed (ie redacted) to be about RT post 1966, and nothing at all has ever been said about that by eckankar, nor how such things have affected people when they find out about it.

Nothing is said by eckankar about how people who ask questions about the confusing history should be treated at all times, or supported through any period of *shock* or *stress reaction* ... or version thereof blah blah blah.

Eckankar says nothing about such things, no matter how people might be treated from time to time, in and out of an eck centre by "leaders"in eckankar.

And yet it sells the books that establishes the doctrine that supports the Org as a distinct entity which holds the Copyrights to sell the books that support it's own existence.

It doesnt really matter how much is only found on the inner, because it is only the outer writings that define what eckanakr is, and makes it what it is by Registering itself as a defined Org entity etc. Both Harold and Eckankar use the writings of Paul, and only Paul's, as prima facie evidence that supports it's own existence.

And yet most of it is plagiarised from hundreds of authors. And that hundreds of times where it says that Rebazar Tarzs [or another] 'said' .. well they didn't say for more likely than not it was text copied from anothers book being put into that eck masters mouth.

It would be nice to know the difference between a real dialogue between Paul and RT being reported, and all the others. Are any of these these other authors inspired writers, masters, god realised or eck masters in their own right? Or pick it up in a dream at the astral library? Or perhaps a compiled mishmash of various ideas that paul liked to put some meat on the bones? or whatever? :)

How can Paul be a master compiler if he never collected a whole lot of material from others, and then compiled it together whilst redacting and editing some of it along the way to suit his own purposes in writing each book in the first place? :-))

This has nothing much to do with an "RT" being real or not on the inner now or in the past, and everything to do with the writings "about RT" and how those are relied upon by Eckankar and individuals.

imho only.

"Its all subjective." :)

[Santim Vah]

More blah blah blah ...

RE
".. i wasnt aware of anyone being claimed as being RebezarTarzs.."

Several do .. Anton Tonz and Shri jambavan is one. another thinks St germaine was RT ... many times swarthy Tibetans pop up.

and what about Nanak? is that what DM is hinting at that RT began with nanak?

RE
"... you can NOT cross out the possibility of such a human being existing, so
deal with it, the possibility will always exist,..."

and everyone has their own subjective ways to say things ..

eg DM at dialogues .. talking about criticisms

Paul once said that the line of ECK Masters is not the same as any traditional religion, because he was referring to this inner consciousness, not the outward form. But what confused me was discovering this consciousness had such a SINGULAR IDENTITY (singular identity) down through the time of Guru Nanak. I could not trace it back any further than that.

Although Kabir is considered by many scholars to be the father of Sant Mat, I could not find that same singular flame in his teachings. Kabir's teachings show all the signs of the high teachings of ECK as Paul pointed out, however it seems to me as if Kabir's teaching consciousness belongs to an earlier era, like many of the Sufis before him.

Then, what was I seeing? What was this singular consciousness?

If such continuity, such a clear identity existed through all of the writings of these spiritual teachers, then must not such a consciousness derive from some One? As I asked myself this question, the whole meaning became clearer. Such continuity could only be kept if it was in the hands of one being. Only Soul can hold such a continuity of consciousness and identity intact.

But what Being could carry this flame of consciousness since the time of Guru Nanak, almost 500 years ago?

No sooner had I asked my question when I realized the answer. The image of Rebazar Tarzs filled my awareness, and it seemed as if a great mystery was being revealed.

This consciousness could not have been handed down, or it would have changed shape and form to match the consciousness of each individual teacher. What I was seeing was in fact the fountain and wellspring that each of these teachers HAD DERIVED THEIR INSPIRATION & TEACHING FROM.

I felt a deep change come over me upon this realization. It changed everything I saw about the teachings of ECK. I suddenly realized how little I really knew about this teacher Paul spoke so often about.

http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Twelve.htm

=================

REPEAT ..

"What I was seeing was in fact the fountain and wellspring that each of these teachers HAD DERIVED THEIR INSPIRATION & TEACHING FROM."

SO .. why is it not OK to ask if these people where likewise INSPIRED by the inner directions and influence by a *inner being * aka Rebazar tarzs ???

Julian Johnson, Swami Vivekananda, Louis Lavelle, Talbot Mundy, Ali Nomad, Neville Goddard, Joel S. Goldsmith, Charles Haanel, Brown Landone, etc. ...

IT's actually a much larger author/teaching line list ... :-)

[Santim Vah]

On Thursday, December 13, 2012 11:50:54 AM UTC+11, Santim Vah wrote:

RE

>

RE

Paul once said that the line of ECK Masters is not the same as any traditional religion, because he was referring to this inner consciousness, not the outward form. But what confused me was discovering this consciousness had such a SINGULAR IDENTITY (singular identity) down through the time of Guru Nanak. I could not trace it back any further than that.

This consciousness could not have been handed down, or it would have changed shape and form to match the consciousness of each individual teacher. What I was seeing was in fact the fountain and wellspring that each of these teachers HAD DERIVED THEIR INSPIRATION & TEACHING FROM.

EG this short list

Julian Johnson, Swami Vivekananda, Louis Lavelle, Talbot Mundy, Ali Nomad, Neville Goddard, Joel S. Goldsmith, Charles Haanel, Brown Landone

----

OK, so those *teachings* were or included ::

Sikhs
Sant Mat
Some Hindu lineages
Some Buddhist lineages
Radhasoami lineages (and their historical streams)
New Thought Movements
Theosophy related Movements
Christian Science
Some Spiritualists
Hermeticism
Rosicrutioans
Freemasonary
a dash of Christianity
and misc psychics and mystics and philsophers

But according to DM etc these (or some of them) were inspired by, the wellspring from one RT (character, individual soul/being) That's what he suggests. Eckankar says nothing of a kind.

cheers sean

[Santim Vah]

RE by DM

" This consciousness could not have been handed down, or it would have changed shape and form to match the consciousness of each individual teacher. "

The above is what one could also credibly call a "mental implant".

I think there is sufficient evidence to show that those *teachings* and those specific teachers that DM refers to very much DO present a CHANGED "shape and form" that matches the consciousness of each individual teacher.... PAUL included.

AS in just because Paul did copy from other authors, and juts because Paul put others writings into RT mouth STILL doesn't mean that text is in agreement with Rebazar, or Harold, or eckanakr or whomever. :)

only a few peaks and valleys to go in this vista. ;-)

[sean.a...@gmail.com]

RE " This consciousness could not have been handed down, or it would have changed shape and form to match the consciousness of each individual teacher. "

--

And when DM said this, he knew of NO examples of lengthy verbatim plagiarism in DWTM, TKTE, or SBTR books.

[Santim Vah]

more blah blah blah .. blah

AS Rebazar says in TKTE ... whilst explaining the teachings of Eck to Paul;

"One can easily become a spiritual criminal unless he gets
control of himself and grants others the freedom that he would
grant himself. Any guru, holy man, saint, or master finding his
chela using this force for the wrong purposes would certainly stop
him."

and

"God never established a definite group for the liberation of man.

[Santim Vah]

and more useless BLAH by way of a repost of info quoted from first HK, then some RS texts

"Some people wonder if Shri Jambavan really exists. They ask if Anton Tonz
just borrowed a name from the Far East or Hinduism and made him up. Yet
people report having met Sri Jambavan and the masters of Shangrila even
before they ever heard of Akshara Vidya. The Akshara Vidya Masters are real."


"Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

"The perfect Master is an incarnation of the Lord. Just as the Lord
communicates His teachings to the Saints without the agency of speech,
similarly, the Saints impart their messages to their disciples by
means of internal experiences, and without the use of speech."

'Like God, the Master does not make use of speech or any material
instrument. He teachers the disciples without speaking.'

"The Master is formless like God and above the sphere of senses. He
instructs his disciples without uttering a word."

[Etznab]

Wow. Thanks for taking the time to put that all together and sharing it.

[Etznab]

Rebazar Tarzs is as continuous as Silly Puddy placed over a comic strip. He can be anything.

Just put Rebazar Tarzs over any text, and presto! Rebazar Tarzs said it!

[Etznab]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxdfoJoWNE4

[MalcolmO]

> So what is Rebazar Tarzs? If not a mental implant, then what?

Paul's imaginary friend, who would never sue him for plagiarism.
--
Malcolm

[wernertrp]

I think about Silly Puddy:
I dont't know (at this moment) how and why can I use it
for what in which situation.
Can it be useful for me (later) ?
Can it safe my life ?
Has Silly Putty the same power than
the Eck power in Eckankar ?
Which damages can Silly Putty repair ?
Silly Putty opens the gates to the infinite question
resolution resolver into Kosmos.
Find out the other 99 useful Silly Putty applications.

[Jon Thorpe]

i agree entirely actually

[Santim Vah]

On Friday, December 14, 2012 1:50:21 AM UTC+11, Jon Thorpe wrote:


>
> > REPEAT ..


By Doug M ...

> > "What I was seeing was in fact the fountain and wellspring that each of these teachers HAD DERIVED THEIR INSPIRATION & TEACHING FROM."
>
> >
> >

SV: asks

SO .. why is it not OK to ask if these people where likewise INSPIRED by the inner directions and influence by a *inner being * aka Rebazar tarzs ???
>
> > Julian Johnson, Swami Vivekananda, Louis Lavelle, Talbot Mundy, Ali Nomad, Neville Goddard, Joel S. Goldsmith, Charles Haanel, Brown Landone, etc. ...
IT's actually a much larger author/teaching line list ... :-)
>
>
>
> i agree entirely actually

fwiw .. this by Doug Marman in 1998 on a.r.e.


"The odd thing about this is, I remember Harold once mentioning that when Darwin
had been confronted with the similarity between The Far Country and The Path of
The Masters, Darwin had commented that Paul had gotten this material from the
inner with Rebazar Tarzs, and Julian Johnson probably did too.

Harold scoffed at that idea, as a rediculous explanation.

Strange that Harold's own words would get twisted around, because of their
ambiguity, to meaning exactly something he said he didn't believe."

by DM .. Master Compiler thread april 1998
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/NwDyNrWln3A/8PC1aeNrISgJ

JOES REPLY ... as Ram3Ram
Again, how do you read this? Do you still say that Harold's words have been
"twisted around"?:

“There are very few writers who can come to this library. Most of the writers
from earth go to the branch libraries, so they don’t get to use the best
sources. But the good researchers--such as Paul, Julian Johnson, Paul Brunton,
and others--can come in here and select the paragraphs that suit their
audience.

It appears, from Harold's own words here, that Darwin was "right"!

Harold is stating that the material in this library is up for grabs. I don't
see any other way of reading this. Paul took stuff from the library . . . J.
Johnson took the same stuff, only some years earlier . . . it all looks like a
regrettable accident in Klemp's account.

Hope this post was more on the money for you.

(the remark about "seasoned soul-traveller" I meant as a compliment, but also
as an example of the limits of spiritual experience in ascertaining knowledge.)

Joe O


======
DOUG:

which he was recounting
is an example of Harold offering up excuses for Paul. Quite the opposite. He
was relating a dream experience where he confronted Paul about it. He was
merely saying that proof of Paul's plagiarism could be found in the Source
documents on the Astral Plane, which are records that can't be altered. I
think you got it backwards.

JOE:

But he doesn't SAY this Doug! On the contrary, he states that certain authors
from earth can visit this astral library and take stuff for their earthly
books!

If there are statements made by HK flatly stating that Twitchell did knowingly
plagiarize, I haven't seen them yet.

Joes reply to Doug.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/NwDyNrWln3A/LzbeN67OsOYJ
======

plus from that post BY DM ..

"...what Harold said never appeared to me to be anything
close to offering Astral Libraries as an excuse for Paul,..."

".. Harold was making the point that Paul was responsible, but that Harold
would have to fix it."

"I was just saying that I think a lot of people are
misinterpreting what Harold said in that quote."
[about astral library dream story]

"My interpretation is based upon my PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE of Harold, and
conversations we had on that subject shortly before he gave that talk."

"I do think that what Harold said has turned out to [be] ambiguous.
He could have been clearer."

"He [HK] was
merely saying that proof of Paul's plagiarism could be found in the Source
documents on the Astral Plane, which are records that can't be altered .."

======
======

So that's in 1998

In 2000 on the Dialogues website (and a.r.e.) and again in his 2007 book) Doug suggests the following:

If such continuity, such a clear identity existed through all of the writings of these spiritual teachers, then must not such a consciousness derive from some One? As I asked myself this question, the whole meaning became clearer. Such continuity could only be kept if it was in the hands of one being. Only Soul can hold such a continuity of consciousness and identity intact.

But what Being could carry this flame of consciousness since the time of Guru Nanak, almost 500 years ago?

No sooner had I asked my question when I realized the answer. The image of Rebazar Tarzs filled my awareness, and it seemed as if a great mystery was being revealed.

This consciousness could not have been handed down, or it would have changed shape and form to match the consciousness of each individual teacher. What I was seeing was in fact the fountain and wellspring that each of these teachers had derived their inspiration and teaching from.

I felt a deep change come over me upon this realization. It changed everything I saw about the teachings of ECK. I suddenly realized how little I really knew about this teacher Paul spoke so often about.
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Twelve.htm

end quote

Comments .. here Doug is saying clearly that the single consciousness "influencing all these other teachings" is One over 500 years, and known to him as the name "Rebazar Tarzs".

That His "eckankar" teachings have come through many other authors writings over this 500 years eg Besant, Soamiji, Salig Ram, Babuji Maharaj of Allahabad, Brunton, Julian Johnson. Some of those physical writings Paul actually also plagiarised from for his own books.

Doug is saying that : RT is the ONE "that each of these teachers had derived their inspiration and teaching from." .. over the last 500 years.

Doug writes: "Paul scoured the writings of mystics and saints, following a thread and searching through the spiritual teachings of the world, trying to find that One. He was tracing this same flame just as I had. No wonder he gathered the writings of Julian Johnson, Paul Brunton, Annie Besant, Madame Blavatsky, Guru Nanak, and dozens of others. Paul himself was returning sacred stones. He was gathering sparks that had been sent out from the same flame, to bring the teaching back to its source. Back to the whole of the Consciousness."

and
"For the first time the reality of it all sank in, because, you see, although the spiritual teachers through the last centuries have captured glimpses and elements of this inner flame, Paul's teaching for the first time brought us to its source.
Now I was seeing THE ECKANKAR, and the whole of the Consciousness. It was a flame watched over for the last 500 years by Rebazar Tarzs, and now being brought out directly for the first time."
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Twelve.htm

Back in 1998, Doug had said, that harold had said to him in 1984 BEFORE giving the talk about the astral library that::

QUOTE:
"Darwin had commented that Paul had gotten this material from the
inner with Rebazar Tarzs, and Julian Johnson probably did too.
Harold scoffed at that idea, as a rediculous explanation."

HK says in his talk:
"There are very few writers who can come to this library."
suggesting that the best spiritual writings are SOURCED from this main astral library.

He didn't say RT, or the SKS in the GWTs, or Sat Nam in Sach Khand, or the ECK.

And he said that in direct relation to Paul's writings and being seen as a Master Compiler.

When people actually write to Eckankar and ask about the issue of Plagiarism, the Official Response is to go read Harold's public statements in his talks, either on the website or in his Mahanta manuscripts series books.

iow
What Harold has had *recorded* in various places (some words not accurate with what he actually said in 1984 etc) IS the Only Official Response to the subject.

Meanwhile Doug in 1998 also says:
"However, I might be too close to it, and therefore I might be the one
that has the interpretation wrong."

Maybe. and maybe what Harold said and *meant* privately to Doug, is simply not what HK said and really *meant to say/suggest* in Public - intentionally said something completely different. Or maybe Harold didn't really believe what he said to Doug, but intentionally said what he said to Doug to gauge his *reaction* as a test? Doug's interpretation and beliefs is all there is here. Harold spoke privately to more people than just Doug.


======

Main comment:

I think the above example of peoples comments and recollections and stories (and how they change how the interpretations shift) is a good explanation as to why it is that so much has been so confusing for so many people for so long a time.

It's an issue about how trustworthy and reliable is anyone's personal recollections, and reports about events and what was said, heard, or when.
Isn't it? Everyone's got a view.

and besides saying that RT is communicating with Doug several times, he also says that it is RT how is a single Soul (What was this singular consciousness?) who has influenced all these other writers that express *spiritual teachings* very similar to Paul. That Paul also did plagiarise/copy/use others writings. And yet it would only be less than 2% of his entire body of writings.

Clearly the last item is not correct and thus the list of writers *influenced by RT* is growing enormously.

Meanwhile HK continues to say to members to go read what Rebazar said to Paul as recorded in this book or that book.

No wonder (some) people get confused by it all.

[Santim Vah]

PS

Re Doug:
"He [hk] was relating a dream experience where he confronted Paul about it."

I have seen nothing in HKs talk/s which would indicate HK was *confronting* Paul about anything. To Confront is not a word that could in any way be applied to the record of what HK said about his dream. and HK doesn't even say it was a *dream* anyway.

So where does Doug get such an idea from .. to use the strong word like *confronting* ? I don't know.

Doug may have gotten this idea from HK relating his dream exp to doug in private differently than HK did in public.

Maybe what HK actually said in 1984 is not how it has been reported? Been edited out? Yet know one has ever suggested that before, not anyone who was at that talk, not that I am aware of.

If what Doug says is true:: ... that HK was very much trying to tell people that paul plagiarised others writings, and that PT was very responsible for this, that HK was not happy about this situation, but that poor HK is the one who has to be responsible to clean it up..... then how is that so many people [the majority i believe] do not come away with the same impressions of what harold meant?

In fact they usually think that HK meant the opposite! That any plagiarising by Paul was fine, because they all got it from the same astral library system.

Several decades of history tells another story:

How are people (especially Eckists) treated if they say Paul plagiarised others writings, and give examples and references?

How are people (especially Eckists) treated if they say that PT was personally responsible for this 'intentional'plagiarising?

How are people (especially Eckists) treated if they say that they, like HK are not happy about this situation?

How are people (especially Eckists) treated if they say that poor HK is the one who has to be responsible to clean up the mess?

How are people (especially Eckists) treated if they say that they do not believe that HK has met his responsibility to clean up this mess about plagiarism; and definitely not in a way that the average person can easily understand and accept?

If Doug's interpretations about what HK thought and believed and said are correct, then how come all the responses to the above questions are all negative in nature?

No wonder people got confused over this subject.

sorry, this probably doesn't belong in this thread.

cheers sean

[Santim Vah]

RE by Doug ::

"This consciousness could not have been handed down, or it would have
changed shape and form to match the consciousness of each individual
teacher."

I think that is an intriguing thing to say, and wonder upon what it is based.

Looking over the past *connections* to Paul, the written text sources, the ideas and the paths, it seems that "things/words/expressions/ideas" all changed shape and form to match the consciousness of the individual or group. all are different. Some things similar.

The teachings and ideas, words and form of eckankar, the *consciousness* of it are very different to those of RS, Kabir, Buddhism, Haanel, brunton, sawan singh, rumi, blavatsky, ali nomad, hubbard, kirpal singh, and so on ...

The way doug says things .. just doesn't add up to the whole reality of it, imho.

Such things are merely Dougs own *interpretation* of what he is considering.
and i am not sure it's the whole of it, because it doesn't look like it. :)

[Etznab]

Nice post.

[Santim Vah]

THX

Was some OLD info I had just found NOW.

These ideas/memories by Doug in 1998 were not included in his TWT book btw.

I did have an after thought ... I'm finding it very hard to believe or countenance that Harold Klemp, in 1984 or since, was in any way incapable of saying what he meant to say, or mean.

I just can't see how Doug's opinions are capable of over riding Harold's own words that have been recorded.

Words that are the ONLY *Official Response* by Eckankar for queries about "plagiarism" or Paul contacts with other groups

Had Harold Klemp in any way *misspoke*, or if the words or intent were not recorded correctly, then he has had 28 years to correct those any time he wanted to.

So, no matter what Doug Marman says Harold said to him *privately*, and no matter what Doug's ideas are about Paul and the History of Eckankar, it doesn't change the fact that Doug does NOT speak for Harold nor Eckankar.

It is not correct nor valid for anyone to use Doug's comments or writings over time, nor The Whole Truth book 2007 as if he does speak for Eckankar; or that it is in any way an official (or accepted/standard) response by Harold Klemp or Eckankar about anything.

I think that's important for people to recognise the difference here, and not forget it.

cheers sean

[Etznab]

"Back in 1998, Doug had said, that Harold had said to him in 1984 BEFORE giving the talk about the astral library that:

QUOTE:

"Darwin had commented that Paul had gotten this material from the inner with Rebazar Tarzs, and Julian Johnson probably did too. Harold scoffed at that idea, as a rediculous explanation."

***

I want to add to the 1984 trivia with some other D.M. quotes.

"[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.    

"About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"

[Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]   

"[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well. [... .]"

[Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

***

My observations. This thing about plagiarism that "had circulated around since the early days" ... I believe it was not something Eckankar was unaware of. I believe Darwin Gross was aware of this and later Harold Klemp was aware of this too. I also believe there were others in Eckankar before Darwin Gross who knew about it too; including Paul & Gail Twitchell. Since this concerns real natural events in history (the "Master Compiler" and his methods) it was only a matter of time before it would surface. And surface it did!

Eventually - judging by quoted texts - a whole trove of stories evolved to try and explain it away. Including some story (via Doug Marman) about Harold Klemp confronting Paul Twitchell and (in so many words) having to clean up a mess. It looks like a lot of that "mess" just got pushed under the rug for another day. And that "other day" is not going away.

Instead of confronting Paul Twitchell, who was deceased in 1984, Harold Klemp could have confronted Gail Twitchell Gross (or whatever her name is now) and asked about all those books checked out of the Seattle library (by Paul) where she worked. If any of them are the ones people are finding similarities with. Harold could also have confronted Rebazar Tarzs (also reportedly still living) and got an explanation about what really transpired.

It was over five years ago when I also suspected a "mess" having to be cleaned up. After I saw how Rebazar Tarzs evidently quoted (without reference) Swami Vivekananda, Julian Johnson and Louis Lavelle in the same breath. It was then I realized that, as an Eckist, I would had also inherited a mess that needed to be cleaned up.

I haven't been idle. Like Santa Clause, I've been checking things twice and keeping records about who has been naughty, or nice.

[Santim Vah]

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 1:53:04 PM UTC+11, Jon Thorpe wrote:
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> > "The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. - Practicing the Presence
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> > "Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time." - The Key to Eckankar
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> > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit
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JTs reply fits a pattern of retorts about Etznabs posting of plagiarisms, and asking questions about the true source of Paul's writings. I want to address a few things here ... all in a general sense, because others have pretty much said the same things, and pushed the same ideas, thoughts, excuses and beliefs.

I think I might be able to show how very LITTLE any of these like comments actually directly relate to anything said by Etznab ... but skew off into other issues entirely. The bottom line being that people actually (and sincerely) believe that these kinds of comments are meaningful, valid, reasonable, related to the topic, sound and logical.

JT wrote:
i MUST point out that there is a terribly HUge difference between plagiarisms and a Master not existing at all,

SV: That's true and valid. But only because one cannot prove a negative, such as " doesn't exist" when it is referring to a non-human being, idea, or presence.

About the only negative that could be proved, is that "I am not dead" . Modern science could prove that negative is false .. but that's about it.

The first assumption/belief by JT inherent in the the above line is that such a "Master" exists or could exist. This assumption underpins the rest of the comments.
----

JT
.. and proving that the conversations given in the books have at times been plagiarizations,

SV: what does this mean ... "at times" ?

Is there even ONE TIME in Paul writings that has been proven to be the words of Rebazar Tarzs? No, not one.

If anyone has such an example of Paul Twitchell speaking truth when he records his *dialogues* with Rebazar Tarzs in any book, any discourse, any talk, .. by all means produce it.

On the other hand, Etznab, and anyone who can read, can locate an uncountable number of examples where PT is NOT speaking truth about what he claims RT was saying to him.

Such examples can be found in EVERY book written by Paul Twicthell. That's what a real FACT really looks like.

JT:
...that by NO means suggests even remotely that Rebazar Tarzs doesnt exist,

SV: What JT does here, along with everyone else who tries to argue this point, is to get it all back to front. The statement in itself is FALSE and thus UNREAL and INVALID.

Again it is a false comment/assumption, because one cannot prove a *negative* .. see? Then I'll explain it again .. it is a meaningless thing to say or think.

THE ONLY CORRECT and RATIONAL way to view this .. that is about pauls own writings that refer to character called RT .. is to say that instead like this:
"Paul writings by NO means suggests even remotely that Rebazar tarzs DOES exist!"

This is reality, this is being on solid ground and taking the correct logical perspective .. that is how a *true* statement is made. This is the STARTING POINT, and not the end point ... without being able to engage with this BASE TRUTH first, no one has a chance to make a valid comment about PT and his writings.

So now we have two true valid and logical statements of FACT:
1) "Paul writings by NO means suggests even remotely that Rebazar tarzs DOES exist!"
and
2) "One can locate an uncountable number of verbatim plagiarizer examples where PT is NOT speaking truth about what he claims RT was saying to him."

OK? Point 1 & 2 and true facts, supported by evidence and logic.

JT:
... nor does the idea of a mental implant explain how in the world people that have never heard of Eckankar or Sant Mat, or Radhasoami, or any other Eastern Sound and Light path see him in their inner worlds...

SV:
first point; Can JT or anyone else give me an example name, quote, contact details, for ONE person from Sant mat, RS or any other S&L path who see RT in their inner experiences?

answer is probably NO; but I'll leave the door open.

second point: on what basis do they ASSUME-Conjecture that this "character" they believe they have had inner experiences with, is the exact same character spoke about by Paul T (and of course HK/DM etc) in his writings? There is no basis, bar *personal belief*.

Which brings us to the third statement of Truth:
3) "There is no way for anyone to prove to anyone, nor even themselves, that they have had an inner experience with PTs character known as Rebazar Tarzs!"

JT:

...im well aware of what former students and anti personal claim on this matter, but i also know that theyre absolutely wrong about their assumption.

SV: let me re-word that into a true statement vs an invalid false claim.

True statement 4: "Their assumption is all they have to prove that my own assumption (belief/agreement) is wrong, and my assumption is all I have to prove that their assumption is wrong."

JT:
.. i spent 5 years of my life living with proof of this, an ex wide who also saw Rebezar and had NO friggin idea who he was or what Eckankar was....not even possible for such a person to have this mental implant supposedly created by PT, just saying, there simply is NO way for that to happen.

SV:
yes there is ways, many ways that such a thing could happen, and not just with JT and his ex-wife. One way is called psychic implants, influences and communications between people who are close. Another aspect includes *astral entities* that mock themselves up to appear as their target expects them to appear.

First JT has not *proven* that the RT he believes he sees is actually real and true to anyone but himself. Secondly, he has NOT proven that this RT is the same RT that PT & HK and all the others speak about. Thirdly, our soc, our beliefs, our opinions, our OBSESSIVE thought patterns, and our state of mind does have PSYCHIC affects upon other people around us.

Yesterday, I suddenly went to the shop for fish and chips. I had no plans to do so. The IDEA simply appeared in my mind and i could not shake it .. it made sense too, so i went got fish and chips. When I arrived to pick up my friend, they were amazed because they have been wanting fish and chips ALL AFTERNOON, and was even thinking of phoning me to get some before I collected her from her workplace.

THAT is one simple example of how the psychic conditions of one person can and DOES have a direct effect upon others on a psychic level. Paul Twitchell likewise had human psychic powers capable of INFLUENCING others beliefs and ideas AT A DISTANCE, and via his written words.

Thus, as opposed to what JT said before " there simply is NO way for that to happen" .. IN FACT there are many SIMPLE WAYS for that to happen.

True statement 5 then goes : "People can and DO have a direct effect upon others on a psychic level, and can thus influence their thoughts, feelings and beliefs."

JT:
... so while conversations with Rebezar may not have happened as claimed in those books, that in no way suggest that none happened at all, or that any that did werent real or were simply imagined, just saying, this i consider to be plain and common sense. undeniable in fact.

SV:
We're back to " cant prove a negative" again. No undeniable fact exists, it was a meaningless statement, repeated in another way than before.

And what will it take for people to stop thinking like this : " may not have happened as claimed " ... into a true statement like "IN FACT DID NOT HAPPEN AS CLAIMED " ... Hell to freeze over first? :-)

So really true fact statement #6 goes: "It is an undeniable fact that those conversations with Rebazar DID NOT HAPPEN as claimed, in Paul's books."

============================================

So now we can review what the undeniably true valid and logical statements of FACTS really are here:

1) "Paul writings by NO means suggests even remotely that Rebazar Tarzs DOES exist!"

2) "One can locate an uncountable number of verbatim plagiarizer examples where PT is NOT speaking truth about what he claims RT was saying to him."

3) "There is no way for anyone to prove to anyone, nor even themselves, that they have had an inner experience with PTs character known as Rebazar Tarzs!"

4) "Their assumption is all they have to prove that my own assumption (belief/agreement) is wrong, and my assumption is all I have to prove that their assumption is wrong."

5) "People can and DO have a direct effect upon others on a psychic level, and can thus influence their thoughts, feelings and beliefs."

6) "It is an undeniable fact that conversations with Rebazar Tarzs DID NOT HAPPEN as claimed, in Paul's books."

These 6 true statements of fact, should be the STARTING POINT a foundation that is agreed upon as TRUE before anyone adds on top of this scenario their own ideas, research, quotes, beliefs, assumptions, stories, and personal spiritual experiences or claims about them.

The REAL PROBLEM is that hardly anyone can do this. So few can really THINK clearly and rationally to start with; or within reason about what is a fact, what is true, and how to express those in a truthful and still logically rational practical way.

In my world, THIS I consider to be plain and common sense!

As uncommon as that is. <smile>

[Etznab]

See quoted text.

[Etznab]

See quoted text.

[wernertrp]

Am Samstag, 10. Januar 2015 12:35:54 UTC+1 schrieb wernertrp:

> Ist die 13. Kalachkra Initiation auch ein mental implant ?
>
>
> www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbMUHvpVH...2qJNaLFgGdCk_nIEjcdP
>
> projectcamelotproductions.com/mediafiles...portFINALVERSION.pdf


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbMUHvpVHm7vx2qJNaLFgGdCk_nIEjcdP

http://projectcamelotproductions.com/mediafiles/Bodhgaya%20ReportFINALVERSION.pdf